Resigning From The White House: Choosing Humanity Over Politics

Join us for a powerful and timely conversation with Lily Greenberg Call, the first Jewish-American Biden administration official to publicly resign in protest of the ongoing genocide in Gaza. In this episode, Lily shares her deeply personal journey from a Zionist upbringing and a promising career in the White House to becoming a leading voice for Palestinian rights and a powerful critic of the administration she once served.

Lily takes us through her political awakening, from her experiences on AIPAC-sponsored trips to her time at UC Berkeley, and the gradual, painful process of unlearning the narratives she was taught about Israel-Palestine. She speaks with raw honesty about the moral injury of witnessing a genocide facilitated by her own government, the weaponization of Jewish identity to justify violence, and the courage it took to walk away from her dream job to stand in solidarity with the oppressed. This is a story of profound moral courage, intellectual honesty, and the power of one individual to speak truth to power, no matter the cost.

‍Like to read? 👉🏼 Check Out these Blog Posts:

From AIPAC to Solidarity: A Jewish American’s Journey of Unlearning

The Cost of Conscience: Why a Jewish White House Official Resigned Over Gaza

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Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Welcome to Super Humanizer Podcast, where we promote empathy and understanding in polarizing viewpoints through stories told by people living them.

Katie Bogen: Welcome everyone back to Superhumanizer. I'm Katie Bogen. I'm here with Hani and our incredible very brave, very powerful guest, Lily Greenberg Call. Lily is a Jewish American, political activist and the former special assistant to the White House chief of staff.

She recently made world headlines for becoming the first Jewish Biden administration official to publicly resign in protest and in mourning of president Biden's facilitation of the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Her resignation letter named President Biden's complicity in the ongoing genocide and condemned his exploitation of Jewish people and Jewish identity to justify violence against Palestinians.

In addition to her recent work in the White House, Lily has also worked for Hillary Clinton and Vice President Kamala Harris's presidential [00:01:00] campaigns. She completed her studies at the University of California in Berkeley, majoring in political science and minoring in public Policy and because of her activism, she's received the Cal Alumni Association Leadership Award twice, not just once, but twice.

This is a powerful badass person we have in our midst. Lily, you've been an activist from your teenage years. You were even awarded for organizing at remarkable scales for social justice causes. It's not a wonder to us that you were called on to serve under a sitting president. And we're absolutely in awe of this massive sacrifice you've made to stand up for humanity.

It's one of the reasons we invited you on to super humanizer. It's why we look up to you as a super humanizer. Thank you so much for gifting us with your precious time.

Lily Greenberg Call: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Thank you. I want to echo that as well. We know the sacrifice you made, my dear. So thank you so much for coming on here to share that with us. It inspired us when we saw that letter and what you [00:02:00] did. And I'm hoping that you're sharing today is going to inspire many others. So, our next segment is a game called what brings you joy.

Would you mind playing that with us? 

Lily Greenberg Call: Absolutely. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: I'm going to start by sharing a joy and then we'll move around in a circle for three joys. The first joy I wanted to share with you guys today is that I'm really happy to be here with both of you. It's truly an honor and blessing to be with Lily today.

Somebody who is a true hero in all the senses of the word. For me, connecting with people like you, Lily, is the reason why I'm an activist and what drives me to continue to be an activist. And of course, doing this episode with Katie today, that really brings me joy,

Katie Bogen: my first joy is definitely being in solidarity with other, particularly Jewish people like you, Lily, who have. Been willing to grapple with their own indoctrination into Zionism. I think that unlearning process can be socially contagious in a really profound and change making way.

[00:03:00] So I'm delighted to be here with you. This is really inspirational to me. I'm very motivated to engage in this conversation. Super excited. Lily, what is bringing you joy?

Lily Greenberg Call: Definitely being here. And yeah, I'll echo that Katie, like being in solidarity with other Jewish people is, I think it can be an incredibly isolating process to, unfortunately, as a Jewish person, be in solidarity with Palestinians depending on your background. And the only reason I was able to really make that jump into Palestinian solidarity, you know, activism, and instead of, changing my mind was one thing, but then doing something about it was because I had. Jewish people show me that there was something on the other side, that I wouldn't have to give up my Jewishness and, things that are so like essential to who I am. And if anything it all of those values, like it, it allowed me to actually be more integrity with my Jewishness um, to be in solidarity with Palestinians. So I really echo that and appreciate it. And then something a little more [00:04:00] fun I'll share is that I found a really beautiful swimming hole in in Shenandoah National Park over the weekend. And I can't stop thinking about it because it was magical and there was a waterfall and it was just so grounding and special and beautiful.

So I'm very 

Mmm. 

but it is bringing me a lot of joy?

Katie Bogen: That's awesome.

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Sounds fabulous. I love that. I love everything magical nature. That's wonderful. Second joy I would share with you guys is that recently a lot of our listeners have been actually reaching out and telling me about how they're finding the show. They were so excited that katie joined and one of The most beautiful feedbacks I get about the show is that people feel inspired to show up for the cause. And that really brings me joy knowing that this podcast is actually inspiring others to have the bravery to show up for the cause. [00:05:00] Yeah. 

Katie Bogen: my second joy is way more shallow than that, i went to the farmer's market yesterday and I got like fresh bread and basil and goat cheese and heirloom tomatoes. And I made myself like fancy schmancy toast for lunch today. And I am still thinking about it.

So thanks listeners. I love you too. And also farmer's markets and Lily, what is your second joy?

Lily Greenberg Call: Um, I'll tag on that. I had a really Nice. meal with some friends last night with some farmers market produce from the weekend. And it was so lovely and sweet. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: beautiful. Bon Appetit to both of you. 

Lily Greenberg Call: haha, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: My third and final joy is I don't know, maybe a little bit more shallow than my first two joys, which is good. We need shallow joys too. But backgammon. So, personally 

I, I, 

I'm come straight like personally. It's not my joy. It's my husband's joy. So my husband recently had knee surgery and has been like [00:06:00] on the couch for a few weeks and he took up backgammon because in the arab world actually backgammon is something that yeah exactly people are obsessed oh yeah and you speak arabic Lily of course you would know that oh my god

Lily Greenberg Call: kalilan kalilan (just a little)

Dr .Hani Chaabo: oh so cool i love that i absolutely love that and so he started playing it and he obviously tries to get me to play i hate everything math and numbers my brain just does not compute. So it did not bring me joy to play backgammon. However, what brought me joy is his joy and realizing how many of our Jewish friends also play backgammon. It's crazy how much we share with each other, right? Including this game. And I know every time he's playing backgammon. playing this game online.

Also, he's playing with a lot of Jewish people. And so just knowing you know that there is that intersection and that those joys are shared between us as Arabs and Jews. Sometimes when we don't even know it online, that really brought me joy.

Katie Bogen: My last joy is I think [00:07:00] combating some stereotypes about me as a person and honey, I think at this point I have spoken about the Bruins every call we've had, I am a diehard hockey fan and people like do not anticipate that I'm going to be obsessive about the NHL, but it's the NHL off season right now, like the regular season is over.

And one of my least favorite teams won the Stanley cup, which was painful, but the Boston Bruins have been. In development camp with the new kiddos that have been called up from the Providence Bruins or who just got traded and like seeing new players in the black and gold Jersey during development camp that has been bringing me so much joy.

So I am finding joy in defying stereotypes and being like a queer femme hockey fan. 

Lily Greenberg Call: I love that. 

Katie Bogen: Thank you. 

Lily Greenberg Call: My third joy will be, there's DC has a really wonderful network of community pools. 

And there's one, a few blocks from my house that in the summer, they play music.

There's a lifeguard slash DJ. Everyone's [00:08:00] there. You like, you always run into friends. It's just such a great vibe. 

um,

and theres like a tennis court and track,, and i've been going alot now that it's a million degrees here, and you can't really do anything outside except go to the pool, but it's just so fun, and like so nice to be to feel a part , of the neighborhood that way, and so like sort of be with everyone. it's really great

and sweet. 

Katie Bogen: I love that like community access and orientation for you. 

And a way to stay chill as the East coast very much heats up. So hearing that very loudly. Let's dive into some of our questions. We're so excited to get to know you better and bring some real humanness to this conversation.

So tell us all about you, where you're from, your background.

Lily Greenberg Call: So I grew up in Southern California, mostly kind of between Orange County and then San Diego. And was I, I, I mean, I, I grew up [00:09:00] very close to the beach my whole life. Which is probably another reason why two of my joys were about water when I think about it, the swimming hole in the pool.

But yeah, it's. It's been in my head, D. C. was a coastal city when I moved here because it's the east coast, and that's not true. And it's been devastating um, adjustment for me. But yeah, so I grew up in, some like coastal beach towns in San Diego. My, my mom's family are like Jewish immigrants from Europe. Who settled in the East Coast. The very sort of classic Jewish story coming through Ellis Island and living in the Lower East Side. And then, moving out to the, there was a farm and then there was the suburbs and really like climbing that upward mobility um, that America allowed Jewish European people for the first time, really.

My dad's family has some of them have been here from, The beginning of the formation of America, like kind of before the revolutionary war and they're from like all over, so [00:10:00] my family isn't from California originally, but that's where I that is where I grew up and where I call home and I grew up really involved and embedded in Jewish community.

I went to Jewish day school for most of my education. I was like really active in synagogue. I felt very lucky to grow up with an interesting kind of mix of going to reconstructionist reform synagogues. Reconstructionists are very non traditional is one way to describe Them, but like, yeah, I don't quite know.

I mean, um, I think the most kind of recent form of American, like the most recent denomination of American Judaism is reconstructionist Judaism. And the most like liberation centered I think like American Judaism relative to a lot of other religion been very progressive on a lot of issues. 

And sometimes, text and ritual in a way that can be more traditional than something like Reform Judaism. But my parents also studied Kabbalah, which is [00:11:00] Jewish mysticism, and we did that at a Chabad, which is a a sect of very religious Jews that were, Actually very welcoming to my parents even though like my mom is a woman and women don't usually study Kabbalah and my dad is not Jewish and usually non Jews don't do that either. So I had this kind of like, I don't know, like charcuterie board of Judaism exposure growing up. And I was always very connected to like our history.

I was a very nerdy, like history buff kid and found a lot of rootedness the Jewish story, especially of experiencing 

oppression 

and then converting that into a justice orientation about the world. These ideas of that are like Jewish and universal values of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world.

And, that you are really obligated to, stand up for people and help people. And that, those are like the tenets of the faith and the culture that really resonated with me, even when I was very young. And I [00:12:00] think unlike a lot of like maybe young kids in America I liked my religious studies classes.

I really enjoyed doing like Jewish text study. I like learned Hebrew both in school formally and then also like in conversation with family and friends. I have family in Israel. I have a lot of close friends in Israel. And. Yeah. That was, it was always like very Jewishly oriented in the world and also, and it informed my choices to get involved in certain career paths, so to get involved in politics to do, I did some like humanitarian aid work abroad in Greece and kind of thought that might be my career path, but I have really mad respect for those people. I just decided I could not be, on the front lines in that way all the time. As someone who's like deeply empathetic, it just was really intense. But did like human rights investigations work in college and, kind of got on this path of getting involved in in [00:13:00] politics and human rights and, public service really, both in a domestic way, but also in kind of an international lens, I think, because I up, I grew up in a very international community.

Actually, my. In San Diego, my Jewish community was mostly non American Jews. So people from a lot of people from Mexico and South America people from Iran Israelis. And I think like that, plus, having family abroad and just like my perspective has always been very internationally encompassing.

I think, more so than unfortunately, like most American people are able to have.

Katie Bogen: I so appreciate your presentation of like this charcuterie Judaism and kind of the alchemy of Judaism of taking all of these pieces of, not only what you learn about tradition and text, but values and community orientation and really borrowing from this global. Wisdom and applying it to your understanding of what it meant to be not only a Jewish young adult and like [00:14:00] person coming of age in Judaism, but an early activist.

And so some of my questions for you are going to be about the development of that identity and Your alchemy of transforming Judaism into social justice work. So we know that you started this girls give back program years ago, which is bonkers. This was a leadership group for teenage girls.

You received the Peter Chortek Leadership Award from the Jewish Community Foundation of San Diego for that work. And then five years ago or five years later, you organized a conference on gender equity that brought together young 23 high schools in the San Diego area, and you cover issues like pay equity and human trafficking and sexual assault on college campuses.

And you included these leading experts and local politicians like you have done labor in these movements for egalitarianism and liberation for literal decades. How do you think you became an activist from such an early age?

Lily Greenberg Call: I just was one of those kids whose like brain was a little here and her body was here [00:15:00] and had a really hard time integrating that. And it's gotten better as I've gotten older, but 

Katie Bogen: Yep.

Lily Greenberg Call: yeah. Yeah. I'm 85 essentially 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Aren't we all, 

Lily Greenberg Call: this is not my first rodeo 

on this planet.

There's no way. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: I just came out of the womb knowing way too much way, way, way too much. I think it was a really a combination of, some of maybe just the, I have always been very like empathetic isn't quite the right word, but um, affected by suffering in particular suffering that feels unfair and unjust. Like I was the type of person who would, as a kid would cry when I saw a homeless person just start bawling. And, when my synagogue did on the, there's a holiday called Yom Kippur, which is like the most serious, day of the Jewish calendar and you and you fast for 25 hours, we would do food drives um, as, you know, just, I mean, fasting, there's a lot of reasons for it, but I think in the modern [00:16:00] world, especially it's such an important reminder that you can choose to not.

eat, And then that is like a, not a choice that a lot of people have. So a lot of synagogues do food drives. And I like took my my red, like toy wagon around the neighborhood I was so young, like young enough to have the toy wagon. So I don't even know how old I was. But did that, because I just have always felt, very called to like fixing things that I feel are unjust and helping people who are suffering in this way.

And and I think because of, A, a probably a combination of service oriented Jewish values and culture that I was raised in. And also, my, my parents I think instilled in me a value about like public service and my family's not necessarily involved in politics, but we were always, 

we would 

talk about things going on in the world. So like politics was the dinner table conversation in a lot of ways. So I don't know exactly what it [00:17:00] was that kind of connected those dots for me, but I also really liked history growing up and I think, had a sense that the knowledge that in particular, like my family and so many people in my community came to America in search of political freedom. And my grandparents like did not go to college on my mom's side. Um, you know, I uh, grew up in a place like San Diego, especially where there's so many people you're very aware of people coming regularly to this country for what they view as opportunity. And like, I could talk about the things that are wrong with America for a 

very, very, very long time.

I do think I was raised with a sense of we do have a political process here for now. And for some people, not for everyone, but for a lot of people is. different than what most people in the world experience. And we have an ability to contribute to it, in a way that is somewhat unique.

And I know in particular, like for my family and my community, again, like I said this [00:18:00] before until coming to America around, the late 1800s, when European Jews started to come here European Jews did not have political power or access or autonomy or agency of anything. They were the 

bottom of the totem pole 

In Europe, which is what sparked their involvement in so much of the movement towards, leftism and like organizing and 

justice 

liberation movement in the 1900s.

Um, the thing Zionism kind of co opted, but I think I was always very aware of the like privilege of that. And especially as a woman, and like thinking 

Gender across the world and like how, that's why something like girls get back was so important to me. 

 Growing up, learning about, and thinking about the lack of opportunities, even just for education that a lot of women experience 

And wanting to create something where young women, especially young girls in the kind of vulnerable time that middle and high school is for us could, get, [00:19:00] involved in and have access to the political process. And in my community, like in my school growing up, I don't, unfortunately it was not always a place where like being smart was the best thing a girl could be.

It's not unique but I do think there was a certain conservatism to the community that I was raised in, like outside of my home that really emphasized that. And I think in some ways, like my workout, my like activism advocacy outside of school was a reaction to that. I was like, actually, this is what I bring to the table.

And a lot of other things too, but I, I'm not afraid to use my voice. And, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Thank God. 

Lily Greenberg Call: also the idea that like young people, just cause we can't vote or can't, you know, I think that felt like a really common thing growing up that who are we to have opinions and thoughts about certain things, because we're not paying taxes and we're not voting and that always felt so stupid to me. and I think we're seeing a little more of that, like Gen Z has really shifted. I'm sort [00:20:00] of Gen Z, but has really shifted the paradigm on like the narrative on, whether young people have a say or have the right opinions to be listened to. 

Katie Bogen: And that's so amazing to have you sort of observing the functioning of patriarchy in your communities and like actively resisting the bimbofication of young women, specifically the political bimbofication of young women, like assuming you 

don't have anything to contribute. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: well said, 

Katie Bogen: Incredible. 

Lily Greenberg Call: I remember this so well because I want to say it was like my freshman or sophomore year of high school. So like, unfortunately the, time when I started to um, I, I was younger I like skipped a grade growing up. So I was the youngest always in my like schools. So I think it was by the time I was like a freshman or sophomore in high school, I started to like catch up a little developmentally and started to, like, Oh, I guess I'm cute.

And now that means something about how I have to behave, like if whatever, whenever. So I made a choice to not talk in class for like, [00:21:00] I don't know how I didn't last very long is what I'll say, because I talked in class. Like I was always, I loved school and I, talked in class a lot. Like I had a lot to say. But I remember making this choice because I was like, I want to be, I want to be cool. 

Want to be a girl, one of the girls that people like, one of the girls that the boys like. And I was like, I'm just going to be quiet. And again, I really don't think it lasted that long, but the fact that I even made that choice at 13 or 14, I just it makes me so sad to think about. 

Katie Bogen: yeah. Yeah. I, it's like the antithesis to Ani DiFranco's Pretty Girl. If you haven't heard that song, I will send it to you. 

Lily Greenberg Call: I don't think I have. Yeah. 

Katie Bogen: yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Great. 

Katie Bogen: So I'm so curious as you're like developing this political orientation and like noticing the functioning of power and hegemony in the world around you and resisting this bimbofication, how did you become aware of Palestine?

Like when [00:22:00] did that happen for you? What was that switch like?

Lily Greenberg Call: So what I'll say is I've been aware of Palestine almost my entire life. Because I grew up in deeply, deeply, deeply Zionist communities. so I have been thinking about Israel and Palestine probably since I was like five or six. 

I

mean when, When I think about the things I knew about, like probably too young, it was definitely the Holocaust. But I also feel like I've known about that my whole life in a way. 

Um,

hmm.

Can't really think of a time I was conscious and I wasn't like aware of the Holocaust. And just the trauma that like is still there. In my body But 

I very much raised, in communities where, there, there were a lot of Israelis and there also was, I don't know if either of you have seen the movie Israelism, but highly recommend. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yes, please. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Mm-Hmm.

the, 

The kind of, Israelism of a lot of the American Jewish [00:23:00] establishment, you know, the um, again, I went to day school. I did not go to summer camp because I went to day school, but like, I basically went to summer camp 

because I went to day school. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: mm-Hmm

Lily Greenberg Call: Israel was a huge part of my life as an American Jew.

I mean, I thought I was Going. to join the IDF for most of my life, And I think there's levels to it, but again I have loved ones in Israel. I grew up learning Hebrew and had a lot of Israeli Friends and family friends and think one of the, one of the saddest things that Zionism has done for Jews, and I think in America, it's in particular because of like the pressure to assimilate here, but the way like diaspora culture has died in a lot of ways. 

Um, , it happened really intensely for Jews from the Arab world 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yes. 

Lily Greenberg Call: who came to Israel because they had to kind of make this choice between being Arab and being Jewish. And suddenly those two things, like for millennia, they had been connected, 

Um, Um, Coexisting with each other.

And then all of a [00:24:00] sudden there was a choice that had to be made. But for European Jews too, I think it was, absolute destruction of the European Jewish world with the Holocaust just absolute obliteration of a universe also where like most European Jews where so isolated and segregated within Europe.

So. just the way that, I mean, within like five years for your entire 

universe to just be like completely destroyed. And then, 

you know,

Zionism like Presented this cultural identity to replace that, which was just how they chose how they survived and how they coped.

And that, bled into like American Jewish culture a lot. So that was very much I was like raised with this sense of pride in Israel, especially in this idea of the rising from the ashes of the Shoa of a state. This idea that like Israel is the solution to something like the Holocaust from ever happening again, the solution to antisemitism in a lot of ways. And [00:25:00] having this like Jewish national identity that you know I think like the irony, like American Jews done really well for ourselves, but we're also still very much a minority. And I felt like was raised in most of my world growing up was Jewish I really internalized. That the Jewish world in America was safe. But outside of that, like I experienced antisemitism growing up, you know, from, from 

non-jewish,

Family members, from. a lot of evangelical Christians in Southern California. 

Even for I had all these experiences that taught me, Oh, whoa. Okay. And it was, sometimes it was things that were malicious. And sometimes it was the few years I was in public school, having to fight for time off for the holidays, you know, and experiencing what that's like as like a 10 year old kid to have your 

Mm

just 

like not care that you're going to 

miss picture day because you are celebrating the new year with your family, 

And not getting a makeup lesson for that.

Or, and that honestly, like that followed me that happened at UC [00:26:00] Berkeley, even unfortunately, which I felt like really frustrated by and upset about, 

Very like progressive place. But so I had this internalization of knowing Jewish history, being raised with that kind of education, genocide education.

And then. Also the like Israel fanaticism and. the safety that the Jewish world gave me and the unsafety of the non Jewish world. And so 

Israel, and New York were always the two places where I was like, these are Jewish places. 

Katie Bogen: Yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Going. I was like yeah. wow, like this is just, i felt so different there i felt like i was you know, I, it feels

I felt like I able to move in through the world in a different way, 

in like a, in a safety that being, quote unquote, the majority and I think I, was always like, because I was so connected to and invested in my Jewishness and in activism, 

getting 

involved with Israel advocacy was really natural and like 

for Someone like me I saw it [00:27:00] as fighting for my 

people

Um, And also because I had a, Somewhat fairytale version of Israel in my head, like fighting for, self determination for minority group and for progressive values. Like I um, was all my, you know, I, my family's Democrats. Like we were always very liberal in that way. But a lot of people, again, my community was like kind of split.

There was a lot of people who were more conservative. And we had, I had a lot of disagreements with them politically, but something everyone agreed on was Israel. It didn't matter if you were Republican or a Democrat. And in particular, kind of in the Obama years, I think the pro Israel world was like a little more leaning into this bipartisan idea. 

 Something that I was like always taught doing AIPAC stuff is like, it doesn't matter who the president is. We just need to like, do what we need to do to make sure that there's support for Israel. So yeah, it was again, like very natural and AIPAC and other pro Israel advocacy groups were [00:28:00] embedded into my like high school and synagogue.

 And I went to DC and I learned how to lobby and I like, really in some ways. Learned about the political process through my pro Israel advocacy. Um, And some of the other, there was a lot of like gender equity causes and and humanitarian work. There were other things that I was doing in high school, but yeah, I don't know.

I, so again, I always knew about Palestine, but in a very, like specific context. And I was definitely someone like, who was called the peacenik and called like a smolani, which means a leftist because of the type of person I am, I you know, was, was looking at the quote unquote conflict from this Peacemaking perspective, like in high school, I did um, like coexistence seminar with like a, you know, what we called an Arab village with a group of Palestinian citizens of Israel, 

High schoolers and some American Jews and some Israelis and, um, that was always like, I was doing a lot of stuff like [00:29:00] that because 

This like very liberal Zionist perspective.

And so I definitely had a lot of internalized fear about Palestinians and Palestinian identity. And I think it wasn't like I knew people growing up who were very, what I would say, explicitly racist and explicitly like hawkish and very like religious, fanatic kind of vibe.

And that was never something That I resonated with or thought was good or like productive in any way. when I think about it, I like would see a keffiyeh and would feel fear 

um, for so

Much of my life. And I know that's something still that people in my life feel and, they see me wearing a keffiyeh and they're, they think that it means something that it 

doesn't but to them, it means that I want to kill Jewish people 

 That I don't care about Israelis, like safety, and then college uh, you know, I, I. When I was growing up, people, cause I was in California said, if you go to the UC's, [00:30:00] you're either going to get harassed or attacked for being Jewish, or you're going to become an anti Semite. So I guess I uh, I did according to some people. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Ridiculous. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Which is just crazy to think about 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Ridiculous. 

Yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Yeah, 

But it was really like it for me, it was getting out of the bubble that I was raised in. And. And meeting, again, it's like I had been to Israel, Palestine. I had been to the West bank, but I didn't even know it. I had met Palestinians, but I had never had the opportunity to meet people where they were like with their own perspective and their own story.

And without the confinement kind of of like the. The trip I was on or like the lens 

through which

I was sort of being talked to, like told about the peace process or looking at something like that. So, 

 It was a multi year process throughout, I would say school of there was like two things happening at the same time.

Cause I went to, I [00:31:00] started university in 2015. The first thing was this exposure that I was having to Palestinian Americans to Palestinians, to Palestinian professors and that was both, both in that I was doing Israel advocacy on campus. So like coming into conflict with these people, but also 

in like natural ways

Like just forming friendships. One of my best friends dating a Palestinian American at one point and he is someone who converted to Judaism, you know, there's me like, I remember the 

three of us sitting in my dorm room

Where I had an Israeli flag freshman that's who I was then having a debate, but like in the way that university is so beautiful because it allows people this opportunity to actually engage with each other. 

mm

and i was doing, you know, the career choices i was making, I was doing human rights work, through the law school so, getting involved with what was going on in Syria, and you know by extension some of the things going on in Palestine, and when I worked in a refugee camp in Greece, i made some [00:32:00] very close relatonships with, with, Syrian Palestinians 

or folks who were their families fled Palestine during the Nakba to Syria, then they were now having to leave. And like, those stories in particular were so resonant for me like multi generational diaspora. As a Jewish person. Um, I just, it, you know, and it just ,

it started to really. like shift at my worldview and, and I was able to have these connections on just like a very personal level.

So I started reading more and I started thinking more and just like it was again many years of kind of integrating unlearning and then relearning. And the people that I had been in coalition with for a few years for, since, since I was in high school doing pro Israel advocacy, like they started to really shift to the right.

Trump was elected in a really visible way. Like Trump was elected, the Israeli [00:33:00] government even more like radical and extremist and right wing. And, I think it just, it became very clear to me. I had never felt in alignment with especially like the evangelical Christians. And there had been a time when I saw those people doing Israel advocacy and felt some sort of like real healing of that of oh, I've never seen Christians care about Jews. because to mehey were the same thing. If they were doing Israel advocacy, which meant they cared about antisemitism and fighting antisemitism, which meant they cared about me and my family. And that again was like counter to what I experienced growing up. there was a time when I was like, was, even if I didn't necessarily agree with them, there was something kind of nice and healing about that, but it all, it just became very clear, were people who were fighting for a vision of the United States that I was terrified by that was harmful to all the issues I care about, to all the communities I care about, to American Jews. [00:34:00] and, I started to realize this coalition is still like pro Israel.

What does that mean, just, things weren't making sense for me, right? Like things were starting to, not be in alignment with each other. And it was like, in, in a lot of ways, like I describe it as a grieving process. Um, I think the, the first time that I, I think it was May, 2021, when there was a bombing of Gaza. I'll backtrack and say I was in Israel in 2014. I have PTSD from the rocket fire from that experience. I had these opportunities, and I did this like coexistence seminar and then saw very quickly as the, war quote unquote war broke out when the three boys were killed and then the Palestinian boy was killed in retaliation.

Like I saw how quickly everyone just. Like every, any development that I felt we had made died. We like didn't know what people didn't even want [00:35:00] me to text the, the, the, the kids that we had been in community with that were like our friends. Now it was really intense, but I was also. 16 but I think 2021 May was like the first time that I felt I was looking at everything happening with the full context and the really true understanding of what Israel has meant for Palestinians, what Israel has done to Palestinians, like the dual reality that like I had an understanding of that so many people in my life think, and then, the Palestinian experience, and I just remember like, I felt grief in such an intense, like physical, I was crying much nonstop for however long that was going on for the type of crying and grief that really you only experience with a death and a loss. 

And it was so painful and so intense. And I just was, really, I think coming to understand for the time that [00:36:00] like people were being massacred in this way. For some, for this fake idea, false, untrue idea that like that would somehow make me safe and make my loved ones safe 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: All of us 

Lily Greenberg Call: and bring us security, whatever that means and with the full understanding of we are not the David in this story, 

which very, very, Very hard Uh, Jewish people to 

come to terms with. And so that was like brutal. And again, it's I think this is a space to talk about this. It is hard because I don't jewish pain is so centered in this whole discussion around Palestine, which is deeply unfair, obviously. In some ways like Jewish pain and trauma is the reason why we're here, which is so insane. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: but it is like a really, I think when people ask me, why aren't more people doing what you've done or why did it take you so [00:37:00] long or this and that it's a lot to unlearn and it is a lot to to accept that maybe you were wrong, that maybe 

Maybe people you love are like really wrong about this, and that most people I think do not want to do that it's just too painful. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: I feel like in, in this room right now, in this virtual room, the three of us have had to do so much on learning and grieving of what we thought was real, what we thought we loved, and unfortunately, there's so many people in this world who have to go through things like church hurt and mosque hurt and temple hurt, right?

Like 

Lily Greenberg Call: Yeah. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: we're brought into this community and we're showered with the love of being in this community. But then we're spoon fed these beliefs that on some level, because we're at ourore, we all just want to be good people and recognize the humanity in each other. On some level, those beliefs [00:38:00] just, they're spoon fed, and they just don't feel like they should be in our bodies, and our body starts to reject them. And then as we make these realizations that help us exit these beliefs that don't feel good, then we are shunned and we are excluded and there's nothing more traumatic for us as human beings than being isolated, thrown out of a community that we felt we belonged and especially when we don't know where we're going, which community are we going to next that choice is the right one or not.

So I really want to honor the vulnerability you just displayed and the story you just told us because 

I 

I share that with you on some level, even though I was raised a Muslim in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, but on some level I had to go through a mourning, a grief of what I thought I knew and a new learning, a new community to move into that helped me embrace not just, the grief that I felt, but also this new identity that I needed to have in this world.

And I'm [00:39:00] so grateful. Thank

you for sharing that with us.

Lily Greenberg Call: Thank you really for creating the space for it,

Katie Bogen: I mean, 

It absolutely resonates. I'm a queer reconstruction of Jewish woman. I was raised partly in a Chabad. Like we have a lot in common. Our stories have a lot in common and 

Lily Greenberg Call: it's so fun 

Katie Bogen: I, yes. And I compare this process as well to grief and, you go through these stages of, I remember feeling such intense anger at the elders in my community for withholding this wisdom and these truths from me and this sense of just rage.

And deep depression of the death of this fantasy and acknowledging sort of the shame and guilt of having to acknowledge the blood price that was paid for me to be able to maintain this fantasy. And I love the way that you speak about the challenge and burden of centering Jewish pain because particularly Ashkenazi Jewish pain, because it has created such a crisis of violence and ongoing crisis of violence.

And I keep thinking [00:40:00] about who Should be called upon to do the labor of validating and holding that pain, and I don't think it can be expected, as you were implying from, Palestinian activists and people who are struggling with their own incredibly severe experiences of trauma. But I think when Jews unlearn Zionism and start to build Zionist critical Jewish community and anti Zionist or Zionist challenging Jewish community and offer an alternative.

home for these people who are in a grief space, a leaving space, a transition space, that, that crisis, Hani, that you just brought up of not knowing where to go next is alleviated because then at least they have some alternative option. And so when you speak about, yeah, who, who is going to do the labor of holding that pain?

I hope that for folks who are listening to this episode, it can be us. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Mhm. Mhm.

Yes all of us. Beautiful. 

Lily Greenberg Call: And at least like this has been happening for a while, but in particular, I think post October [00:41:00] 7th, like I've been involved with a group called, If Not Now for, for a few years now, which was really that bridge space for me, like 

The landing place and. At least just in like the DC chapter.

I think there were 50 people in our WhatsApp chat on October 6th and

now there's like 500. mean, People in this horrible, painful moment, the, at least like one of the positives that I can think of is that there were a lot of, in groups like Jewish voice or peace have been doing work for a long time, but I, I do think if not now has a little, it has more capacity to. To kind of bridge 

this gap and

like to provide people a processing space. JVP is a little more, I think, action oriented or at least focused and has that capacity, but, um, you know the, the, the people were ready to hold people as they were coming through this 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Wow. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Yeah 

and I mean I know a lot of [00:42:00] people like yourself Katie who felt

a lot of anger and felt a lot of, I know people who like really moved away from their Judaism or their Jewishness, like after, learning more about Palestine and Palestinian history. And, the Israeli reality of occupation and apartheid. And I think for me, that was never quite an option. Even like subconsciously, because of, where I am politically, like there could have been a world where I got involved in Palestinian solidarity work earlier. I was at Berkeley, I had plenty of opportunities. Um, But I, did not see this alternative space in a way that felt welcoming or open to someone like me, who was like, not secular, who like, yes, was Ashkenazi, but has a lot of sort of exposure and cultural, like connection to non Ashkenazi Jewishness um, who has like connection to Israelis, you know, and, and, and like speaks Hebrew and all of that.

Some of the [00:43:00] now things are a little different, but I think at the time when I was in school, some of the like anti Zionist, Zionist critical Jewish spaces were not, did not feel like I, I did not have a place there. And so I was, I think for me, it was like I'm never going to give up my Jewishness and I shouldn't have to, and you don't have to, but 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Of course not.

Lily Greenberg Call: there wasn't a way for me to, a community for me to have, right. 

And it took more, now there are more people who can articulate people experiencing this, that like, and I hope in some ways that I have done that for people that like, you can 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yes, You have. 

Lily Greenberg Call: You are actually most in alignment with what it means to be Jewish with what our, our ancestors. And like, I mean, I, I'm sure you experienced this too, Katie, but you grew up, you're taught about like the Jewish freedom riders. You're taught about Abraham Joshua Heschel working with Martin Luther King 

and the civil rights movement. You're given genocide education up the wazoo. Um, And then you're asked to ignore all of that it just doesn't [00:44:00] apply to Israel in the same way. Like you're asked to support an illiberal state and things that are inherently wrong. And we know, especially as Jewish people, because a state sponsored oppression is like so close for us. We know that this is wrong. Like you can just feel it. And the mental gymnastics that you're asked to do are really painful and wrong, and I think like

you know, Being in that space of conflict with yourself, like creates, I mean, again, the base of it is we're asked that we're, we are instilled with this belief that Jewish safety and Palestinian freedom are somehow at odds with each other 

and unfortunately if that's how you think

That it is a zero sum, Like people want to choose themselves, especially because this fear of anhiliation is 

so close for European Jews and Jews in 

general 

and that's such a, that choice is in such contradiction to everything else that I at least learned about [00:45:00] being Jewish and like what it means to to be a Jewish person in this world. And it's really, it's tragic. 

I mean,

mm.

Of that for Palestinians is like the fact that we are asked to accept that is morally reprehensible and also like deeply, this is like killing what I see as the Jewish soul. 

There's 

no way for us to survive this.

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah. 

Katie Bogen: I think all the time of the cognitive dissonance of us learning about like the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, the Polish underground. My grandfather and his sister were part of these liberation movements that used, any means necessary to maintain the possibility of Jewish survival. And then the same people who heroized These resistance activities will say, but these little kids shouldn't throw rocks at IOF soldiers.

And I'm like, what like, our people garrotted German soldiers? What are we talking about here? And just the difference in [00:46:00] perceiving resistance when it comes from our own people versus people that we code for as brown and people that we code as Arab or Muslim or sort of project otherness onto is really shocking.

And I think you speak to the death of the Jewish soul and Jewish ethics. And I think that exceptionalism is a part of just the disintegration of um, of the ethics of our people. 

Lily Greenberg Call: I think of what Jewish safety means and the idea that like Israel somehow provides that I don't think safety is military militarized state where, when you're eight, every 18 year old has to join the army then becoming a soldier. Who is like the fact that the military is so, woven into Israeli society in the way that it is, is so dangerous and and then also creates this horrible situation where like, you know, it's yes, if there's people, throwing stones at a soldier, like that could be anyone

and I [00:47:00] mean, where everyone is a combatant and no one, it's just 

like,

Dr .Hani Chaabo: mm.

Lily Greenberg Call: One, not safety and two, it is just so deeply like wrong. And it contributes to this conflation of like Zionism and Judaism, and Jewishness with the occupiers and violence and like this system of, requiring subjugation of another people for this perceived safety.

Dr .Hani Chaabo: For me it was such a striking like comparison when, as I was learning because, I came from the Arab world. I'm an immigrant. I started learning all about these things probably in the last few years, you know, 

Zionism, Israelism the militarization of Israeli society, what that means. And for me, seeing the parallels between the extremism that I left the Arab world because of extremism. I left because of Hezbollah. I left because of this militarized militias, right? This militarization, and then this mix of militarization and religiosity and the extremism that [00:48:00] comes from that.

And when we talk about jihad, for example, right? Everybody's Oh, Islam is so bad because of this idea of jihad where we kill ourselves for the religion. And then we're martyrs and then we have all these mermaids or whatever they are in heaven waiting for us. 

Right. Like, 

I didn't understand that was created newly for Jews through Zionism

Like There is a form of jihad now, especially that we are seeing with the soldiers in Gaza and how, 

you know, 

amalek and all these terms that are thrown around from the Torah from Judaism that it's created jihad. In Judaism, and it's just very striking for me just coming from there and having that contrast to be able to see that, created in Judaism and it's sad because Judaism is about Tikkun Olam is about all these beautiful ideals and Islam means peace. But here we are, the manifestation of extremism and what it [00:49:00] does to those religions. It's really sad. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Yeah. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Wow, what a profound discussion. On that note, I have a question for you. You were the president of Bears for Israel, which is an AIPAC affiliated group.

And in 2022, you chose to publicly cut ties. Why did you do that?

Lily Greenberg Call: So insane to think about this. The op ed I wrote in 2022 was like my first dabble into Jewish anti occupation work, and it was so public, which I guess like, we're, you know, this is the trend now at this point. So there's been a focus on on AIPAC for a few years now, at least about, especially in the last few years, how they have endorsed insurrectionists and really committed to what they just did with Jamal Bowman, essentially kicking out going after progressive members of Congress.

 They went after Andy Levin, who was a progressive Jewish congressman from Michigan loved in his community, deeply like labor organizer. Someone who I think really represents like [00:50:00] the best of what our representative system, when it you Works um, can be and, and Jewish, right. and he, dared to kind of step out of line a little bit when it came to talking about funding for Israel and military 

funding and you know and AIPAC attacked him um, and, and he had just poured so much money into the primary that he couldn't, that he lost. And the same thing happened with Jamal Bowman in New York. So I. Had been involved with AIPAC for so long as a student and by 2022 I was not involved with them anymore. I think, after I graduated I stopped doing anything with AIPAC. And it was really in those like few years, especially from 2019 to 2022, where I started to integrate a lot of the things I had learned in school, 

 Over those few years and then go through the grieving process enough to come out on the other side of okay, I actually have to do something now. Like I am obligated as a Jewish [00:51:00] person to be involved in, not just fighting for Palestinian freedom and rights and liberation, but like changing my community and how we support this and and of course, grew up with this very, like this understanding of the U S Israel relationship and the politics of it and the way that the Jewish community is involved in it. And so, and how detrimental that can be which meant. It can also be used for, good ultimately, if we,

managed to change something, but the Jewish community is one part of what upholds the U S Israel relationship as it is. And then there's other things that, you know, people who have much more many more numbers and much more money and much more power.

And that is Christian Zionists 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah. Yep. Yep. 

Lily Greenberg Call: the, military industrial complex and just us military interests in 

general I mean in 1986

like Joe Biden said. When he was in the Senate, he said, if there wasn't an Israel, we would have to create one 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: create one 

Lily Greenberg Call: for interests as a country, which is crazy. Again, if in theory, this is all about Jewish safety I [00:52:00] don't know what the hell that means, but um, but we know that's not true, so AIPAC, which their managing director, by the way, is a Christian Zionist. Like they kind of masquerade as a Jewish organization at this point. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Wow. 

Lily Greenberg Call: they're not even, I mean when 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Did not know that. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Yeah, 

Yeah. Oh 

yeah, yeah, yeah, 

yeah. So there's CUFI, which is the Christians United for Israel, which is an explicitly Christian Zionist lobby group, biggest Zionist group and organization in the country. And then there's AIPAC, which again, masquerades as like the Jewish Israel lobby, but is not entirely Jewish. And they have, they are in a lot of ways, like the Zionist sort of pro Israel lobby is detrimental to American politics and fighting for what we, the country that we want here because they are willing to at any cost, like support people who have these agendas of white supremacy that are very harmful and terrifying and anti democratic. Um, And so in [00:53:00] 2022, There was this big push to get members of the congressional progressive caucus to stop taking money from AIPAC. And I was, essentially kind of offered to, or had this opportunity 

where 

I was one of the few people in the Jewish left or the sort of Jewish anti occupation organizing world in that moment with the background that I have. Who could speak to like my rejection of AIPAC. there and and kind of target that at like folks in Congress. I think my power in this moment is that I can speak to people who are historically pro Israel. I can to people who are of the political

establishment. Like I, 

I am not talking to them from an outside perspective.

Like I am them. Sometimes that's the most, a lot of times, unfortunately, you know, 

and 

like, 

I'm, and I'm Jewish and I'm white, which means people are going to listen to me more than they are going to listen to Palestinians on this, which is a huge bummer and completely wrong, but it is the reality [00:54:00] in 

And if the people in power, hopefully they if they're going to listen to me instead of someone else, but I'm saying the same thing, then. It's kind of what, it's this idea of being effective. Like If that is what we need to do to make this work fine, I'm happy to do that and then pass the mic as soon as I possibly can. But yeah, so that the AIPAC rejection was like, I think like a way for me to be very clear about what AIPAC is doing and to kind of use my, I mean, really use. In some ways, I think about everything that I was involved in and, everything that I learned from being in those spaces and and I feel a sense of shame and a sense of anger and frustration, but mostly that it has, it's very valuable in the end, like the 

fact that i'm able to like 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Oh Yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: understand both worlds. And I think that's, I'm not, I don't regret it, 

right.

in alot of ways I mean I was,

also a kid, [00:55:00] so I 

can't really

Blame myself for what I 

what I didn't know

What I wasn't 

taught but, I decided that like this, was going to be necessary. It was one of those moments where it was like, this is, this can be valuable.

And I don't think we were super effective in getting a lot of these members to stop taking, 

mm,

mm,

Taking money, but you know, here we are like two years later and there's a whole reject AIPAC coalition 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yes, 

Lily Greenberg Call: And there's, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: yes. 

Lily Greenberg Call: don't know exactly how many members who have like committed to not taking AIPAC money and the conversation has really shifted.

So, 

It was my way to contribute in that moment. And it was, yeah, it was very deeply public and scary, but I think that might be just my, I do in this, my role in this 

movement. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Wow, I didn't know how you would answer that question. I knew that, there's probably a lot of mixed feelings about you being in that space, being the president of that organization. And then [00:56:00] obviously, like all the beautiful realizations you shared, and then your heart of activism and wanting to stand up for what you know in your bones is right. And it's just really to hear you say that you did that because you wanted people to know the truth. You shared something there that was very remarkable. Not many people would leave the position of president of an organization like that. And so the fact that you did that so that you can inspire others and then you knowing that your time in that organization makes you actually more powerful in your advocacy and how you can connect to people on both sides of the aisle.

I think that is super humanizing galore and so important. Really so important. You are able to relay a message in a way that many people can't. So thank you so much for your time there and for your decision to leave and to make that known publicly. 

And, you know, 

You left that organization and you also left the white house.

[00:57:00] So this interview would be incomplete without us talking about that huge decision you made, you resigned from the Biden administration because you're on the right side of history, my dear, your letter was moving well researched and written and deeply profound. It's a statement that really shook the whole world. A powerful question you asked in that letter was "what is the point of having power if you will not use it to stop crimes against humanity?" That's a big question. And you chose to resign on May 15th, which was the 76th anniversary of the catastrophic Nakba genocide. what was it like for you leading up to that decision and going public with it?

Lily Greenberg Call: So I felt very, in some ways I was Um, my, my role in the administration, I was working for secretary Deb Haaland, who's the first 

Katie Bogen: indigenous 

Lily Greenberg Call: one of the first native women to be elected to Congress, 

first 

native American secretary of the interior, which is the [00:58:00] department, that historically harmed native communities, removed them from their lands ran boarding schools.

It was a very striking example. I feel like I every day was working with these incredible people who were, indigenous people who are,

who are really like inside the

the system that hurt them. And it's the department that now still runs like the Bureau of Indian Affairs and, all of the way like the U S government and tribes interact with each other really happens through interior.

So it's this really complicated space. And I, um, had, even when I joined the administration kind of had my, wonders about, my, my own like idea of theory of change and like how much change can happen from the inside versus the outside and chose to join because of the secretary because I would be working for her because I, believed in her and and she's like an incredible human being and thought, okay, [00:59:00] of all the people and places to be, this is the one where I would want to be. And then October 7th happened. and. It was very close to home for me. I know. A lot of people who lost their family members and their friends. And, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Sorry, honey. 

Lily Greenberg Call: uh, 

People who, have loved ones who were taken hostage. It was really brutal I 

made even more brutal by the fact that almost immediately, like my first reaction upon sort of, starting piece together what was going on was like, Oh my God, there is going to be a horrible, I mean, just the reaction, I knew it was going to come for Palestinians was like, 

Yeah, I couldn't, I feel like I couldn't even properly grieve what was going on with you know Israeli Jewish society and my community because I was so terrified and just knew that so many innocent 

people were going to be [01:00:00] slaughtered as a, as a payback and for this. And so that was, just like absolutely devastating and gutting. And I have no illusions about how the US Israel relationship works, but I thought that I didn't think it would be quite this bad 

basically I did not

Not think. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: None of us did 

Lily Greenberg Call: Yeah I mean I really did not think that, um, in some ways, like Biden talks about grief all the time, like so much 

of his Political persona and and narrative has been around his own experience of grief and loss. And he's kind of, he's known as this empathy guy in that way.

I mean, Someone who can really speak to it means to lose family members, to lose your loved ones and how that impacts you. And so to see that like completely go out the window for Palestinians

Was really [01:01:00] demoralizing. Um, you know, I, I experienced like a lot of people within my, the places I was working within the administration offering a lot of like grief or support for what I was experiencing and what my community was going through. And I felt, that was wonderful. And I, and it felt like at, in, on one level, Very supportive, but the complete lack of extension of that also Palestinians. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yes. 

Lily Greenberg Call: and the lack 

extension

like this assumption, I almost was, it felt very similar to how people talk about like gun violence here in the U S when they're, when conservative politicians will say this isn't the time to talk about when there's, a massacre or mass shooting this isn't the time to talk about gun reform. Because it does like an injustice or whatever they say. I mean, Thoughts and prayers, you know, that's what it felt like being on the inside. I was kind of like, look, I actually don't want your [01:02:00] sympathy for, my sister's friend or for like my friend whose entire family is from Be'eri, like one of the Kibutzim on the South, I don't want that. If you're not willing to like the read, this did not happen in a vacuum. If we're not going to talk about why this violence occured and the fact that the status quo does not, is not only, completely unacceptable for Palestinians, but is harmful for Israelis and will only create more and more violence like this, then I don't want your sympathy and I don't want your Whatever you're offering for me. Especially when it was coming from not everyone in the administration has the power to change this. And I think I realized very much over the nine months, like at first I was like, I have this proximity to power. 

To try and use it again this is something no one else in my family has ever had, maybe they will listen to me. Maybe I can do something. Maybe I can try and organize all this widespread dissent, that was happening at all levels. People were like, really upset about how leadership and how the U S was responding to this from within [01:03:00] became very, very clear. That was not going to work.

They were not 

interested

um, In, in hearing what I had to say, but, 

I, yeah, so I was like, maybe I can do something with this, but I didn't, when it was, you know, people who there were people in administration leadership who like very much have the capacity to change policy 

this. And I just felt like

there was such performative, 

you know, allyship with the jewish community, that you know again, to say it To is because of like about Jewish safety or about keeping Jews safe. And then I'm like, literally did 

Not and does not, first of all. and second of all like, these people have, these are some of the most powerful people in the world making the decisions about this um, who are not actually invested in my [01:04:00] community meaning both Israelis and Palestinians, their safety and could not understand that someone like me could care about Palestinians too. That was so removed from their analysis of this. It was really, it was just so clear to me. I was like, we are not in alignment in any way, shape or form. And I just, I could not like I really I thought again, I have this access here. I'm going to try and do something with it. I did a lot. I tried to do a lot of things, from the inside. And then I came, I really came to a point where I thought I am actually able to have more influence, and power in this situation by leaving because like me, this. As I, I said before, like these things that kind of uphold US support for Israel yeah, one of them is the American Jewish community, but it's mostly this like this sort of like cover narrative that this [01:05:00] is for Jewish safety because the other reasons are much less palatable for most people. There are some people who are, just very explicitly racist and whatever, but I think most people are not willing to accept like the slaughter of innocent people, the genocide of a population for US military interests as they are. If there's this idea that somehow, this is what's necessary to protect Jewish people, a minority who've historically been through so much and yada yada And to remove that narrative, like it's going to, it has to be in a lot of ways, Jewish people who are undermining it.

The worst case scenario for me is where like Jews are not invested in this anymore. And it doesn't really matter. Like the people who are this all happen are just like, yeah, we actually don't give a shit about you anyways. Um, That could totally happen, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: opposite extreme yeah, 

Lily Greenberg Call: yeah,

In this situation I, I sort of realized to myself I'm doing all this stuff organizing work and kind of work within my own community and my own world to dismantle Jewish support for [01:06:00] the occupation. And to dismantle this idea, this like cover of Jewish safety that is used as a justification that the president is using, that the state department is using that, like that Israel uses. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Mmm. 

Lily Greenberg Call: was, I realized, how can I have the most impact here? is resigning it is, verbalizing and vocalizing. Like I had less power on the inside 

as I do to even maybe 0. 001 percent change the quo from the outside. And I realized like. have an opportunity to make a sacrifice that could, again, if even a little bit percent change this and stop the suffering of so many people, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Mmm. Mmm. 

Lily Greenberg Call: then I have to do it.

Like I 

Oh, 

felt like I had to, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Really so beautiful and so admirable.. When Biden came up that day and said this is the worst day since the Holocaust for Jewish [01:07:00] people framed it that way and then here we are later, and this is the worst day since the Nakba and maybe even ever for Palestinians in our lives, even Arabs, I would say, and then there's not been that same consideration, that same statement made in that way. And I remember for months thinking, when is he going to acknowledge us? When is he going to acknowledge us? Here I am, an American immigrant, and I'm like, when is he, when is my president going to acknowledge us? And it took forever, really, and even that acknowledgement has been so minimal in many ways.

And as you were talking, one of my questions for you actually was do you regret it in any way that you left? Some people would say maybe you would have been more effective advocating from within, even if it's an incremental change. But what you're saying is you're way more effective advocating.

From where you are right now. So I guess my question changes for you, and the question is, what have you lost and what have you gained from this decision? 

Lily Greenberg Call: In a, 

In a somewhat, in the material sense, like [01:08:00] I have lost the career that I spent the last 10 years of my life but I actually, I feel, I don't know, I don't know, I don't feel as much grief about that as maybe I should like, I think, think this time since October 7th was really like I remember at one point thinking to myself If I, again, too, because there's, there are, there are, I would say when there's people who have resigned about in protest about what's, what's happening in Gaza and uh, um, and just not gone public.

Right. I mean, there's been thousand thousands of administration officials, campaign staffers, even like writing letters, like there is widespread 

agreement

That this is bad for lots of different reasons. Like people are coming at this, some of it is purely like, this is bad for Americans and this is bad. 

hmm.

And a lot of it is, this is horrible and we are perpetuating it. And that is morally abhorrent. [01:09:00] Um, but you know, to See people not be honest about that because it would jeopardize their career and some people have mortgages 

Things that I don't have, right.

And they can't take the same risks

That I can. 

And some people are like not white, and not Jewish. And again, I get a lot of grace 

on this that other people don't and understand

that. Also reasons why I was like, I actually do need to make this sacrifice, I just thought if I have to. Not be honest about not just what I think, but who I am 

to try and maybe you know, try get to a position where I can have more influence about this, I

cannot do that. Like I could not live like that. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Wow. 

Lily Greenberg Call: it was not good for my soul. It was not good for my body. It was not good for my, it was not good for me. so I've lost that, but I think in some ways it's a blessing in disguise. And I, I have lost have lost some [01:10:00] community and some Katie were saying elders, like I have lost people who I really respected and, rabbis and people who like taught me and 

mm.

and that's 

really, 

really painful. Um, But I think what I've gained in general is like this one, 

 I'm in on integrity with myself 

in a way that can't be replaced um, And I've told this to people and I try and tell this to like Jewish people, especially like being in solidarity with Palestinians has healed so much of my own, like anti Semitism pain and trauma in a way that I mean, it has like really made my life so much better. Um, So much better. And, And I, I like, I am really scared of antisemitism and I have also seen it get worse 

and I have experienced it in [01:11:00] Washington, DC, outside of a context around Israel or Palestine, like just kind of people on the street, like realizing I am Jewish or wondering if I am Jewish and saying really messed up things when they make that connection. 

And that's really scary to me, but like the fact that I now can know that there is a community of, Muslims and Palestinians and non Jewish people who like have my back Um,

makes feel so much safer. 

Also like this understanding that, I can feel anger, not just at quote unquote, antisemitism, whatever, but at at the Israeli government, at the president, at these people who are manipulating our lives in this way, 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah. 

Lily Greenberg Call: and putting Jewish people at risk just so that they can continue to kill Palestinians for these, fake idols, that are not actually like anything that has to do with people living healthy, safe, thriving lives. The first people who reached out to me on October 7th were my [01:12:00] Palestinian friends like besides Jewish people who were like you know, I don't remember where your family is. I hope everyone you know is okay

That is my reality. And that is so counter to what people in the white house think about Jewish people about Palestinian people, what so many people perceive this situation to be. They cannot comprehend a world where like Jews and Palestinians care about each other. 

That the anti war movement in the U S is being led by Palestinians and Jews is like such a threat to the status quo. so that's, I have gained like such a sense of safety in some ways. It sounds kind of crazy to say it in the context of what's happening, but safety through solidarity that has 

like healed so much of my main, Things in like my, my, generational trauma, my nervous system.

Like I just feel that sense of like safety and security that like, we are going to [01:13:00] build something different and that we really have each other's back. And that is priceless. 

Katie Bogen: Yeah, 

that resonates so strongly with me. I'm a fourth year doctoral student in clinical psychology and I do trauma therapy like I work with abuse, mostly sexual harm survivors. And one of the interventions I am learning and have been trained in is like acceptance commitment therapy, which really helps to heal people's like sense of self esteem by making sure that they're living in alignment with their values.

Because as you said, this sense of personal integrity that you're able to maintain if you know that your actions are values aligned is so . 

Unshakable. It's like this foundation in, I know who I am. I know what I'm bringing to movements for justice and it stops cycles, particularly among trauma survivors of chronic self betrayal of take of taking other people's feelings more seriously, taking other people's values more seriously.

Like it really is sort of the opposite of self [01:14:00] betrayal is to maintain this values alignment. And I think what you said too about The different community that is being built here out of solidarity between Jews and Palestinians, Jews in the Arab world, Jews in the Muslim world, like it is a positively reinforcing cycle that I think is so profound and multi and bidirectional because I keep hearing from folks that I get to be in community with now that they haven't met Jewish people before who would be willing to hold Palestinian pain, that they haven't met Jewish people before who understand the heartbreak and devastation of the Muslim world that's been exposed to the violence of Western interests for decades and generations.

And so they're meeting people who are not the Jews that they were taught exist. And the distinction between Judaism and Zionism is breaking open in these communities and now we get to have more diverse social networks, different friendships, different romantic relationships, like the possibilities for [01:15:00] depth of connection have changed for me fundamentally in the last year.

And I'm not saying that the suffering of Palestine at all should again, be the blood price that is paid to build, This movement that is certainly not the case. But as you said, the fact that the anti war movement is being co led by these groups that have been told for 76 years should be each other's enemies 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah. 

Katie Bogen: is, a profoundly world shaking event.

So thank you so much for commenting not only on that, but your individual experience of that I think is quite beautiful.

Lily Greenberg Call: You said it so well, it's a paradigm shift and that's why it's so scary for people in power. 

I'm like heavy sigh and you're like, 

Katie Bogen: 

I do want to not only name the fact that this was an incredibly brave sacrifice but learn more from you about where the well of that bravery came from. I think you've spoken to this feeling of it really being your only [01:16:00] option. But what resources do you think you pulled from your spiritual resources, emotional resources, the skills that you have that allowed you to make this decision and then live with it now?

Lily Greenberg Call: It definitely is something, I spoke about this before, but having a community, having a landing place, like I would not have been able to do this if I was not already in community with, Jewish anti occupation organizers, with 

With Palestinian people with just everyone kind of involved in the movement for Palestinian liberation and, and other organizing spaces.

For different issues that, they're all somewhat connected. I had to really like connect to what the essence of the privilege that I feel I have had, and even the privilege of having that position and having the opportunity to like, have that proximity to power what is it all for? If not to like I said, this, to be able to do something with it to, to help people.

And the sense that like [01:17:00] everything I ever learned in my Jewish education was about the people who did or didn't do during the Holocaust, during, whenever like Jews have been 

harmed in many different experiences that we've had of violence and persecution. I think, the idea that like, there's this whole, this term of like righteous Gentile that is used to describe people who and saved and helped save Jewish lives during the Holocaust. And that those people are like. Revered in our community in part because there was not that many of them. It's, it felt like, mean, I have to is like almost feels it doesn't quite do it justice, but it was just like this is the best version of myself, like the best version of myself would do something like this that is really scary in a lot of ways and minimal to the like suffering and the fear that, you know, people in Gaza are experiencing. In comparison to what people have been, forced to sacrifice [01:18:00] in Palestine. When I was little, I had this book that I think about a lot. It was called a hundred famous women. And some of them are people we know. And some of them are people that I don't think we knew, but it was these stories of women who did something great. Did something important, and some of it was like Amelia Earhart. 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: mm-Hmm 

Lily Greenberg Call: Rosa Parks, but the through line of doing something brave for other people or for yourself but for the most part, the ones that really resonated with me were people who chose to do something for other people.

 There is like nothing more in line with everything I've learned about being Jewish and questioning authority and like choosing to challenge something that you know is wrong. than stand up for Palestinians in this moment, especially as a Jewish person. It felt like everything that I have learned in my life was was available for me in this moment. And I had an immense well of support and community to lean on. I would describe myself as a religious person. Definitely very [01:19:00] spiritual and I have my own kind of relationship to religion that is definitely very centered in Judaism and also pretty connected to the natural world. Which Judaism is like a 

Nature oriented religion as well. I had to think about what my self as a kid and what myself, in 20 years would think and 

50 years and like, when I zoom out of moment like what is the choice I would have wanted myself to make? And it was very clear that it was To leave, and I had decided, I was like, I'm going to leave for me. And then once I decided I was going to leave for me, I was like, well, I'm going to tell people that I work with why I'm leaving. And then I was like, if I'm going to do that, then I might As well tell everyone.

And because I realized that I actually had much more power if I was public. Part of the problem our system and especially the way government works on the inside is this like hierarchy and this insular culture and this sense of we know more than other people because we know about what's actually happening [01:20:00] right on the internal workings and and, once like the people, when you have proximity to power, I think you are less likely to give it up.

That's sort of What I see as a main problem of why this cycle is able to perpetuate is that people don't actually, when you have something to lose, you don't want to lose it. 

 At the end of the day too, I was like, there are people I love and care about and they are being harmed by this. 

And if I have a chance to stop that, or at least like really shake some people up who are perpetuating it, then I have to do that.

Dr .Hani Chaabo: And you are. 

Katie Bogen: Yeah. As I listen to you speak, the word that just has stayed in my mind since you started talking to us is alchemy. Is this like transformational process? I just keep thinking alchemy, alchemy of your inner child and your inner teacher and your faith and spirituality and the lessons you learned from Judaism and the social justice work connection to your [01:21:00] communities and this adolescent activism that brought you to this space of bravery, the things that you learned in college when you went to Israel, like you've been able to condense.

This incredible wealth of knowledge and insight and pain and anger on behalf of other people and what you've learned in the community that you've built and contribute to a movement of social change that has desperately needed voices like yours. I'm getting kind of emotional.

talking about it. It's been so beautiful to hear you share. And I think I know that doors are going to open wide for you. Like the world is going to open for you because the change making that you can do is just outrageous and spectacular. And I really, I can see you contributing to that change making for other people as well.

 In the spirit of that process, what message do you have for folks who are still reticent to speak or reticent to share? their perspectives in sort of the public way that you have, particularly those working in [01:22:00] policy and those too anxious at this moment to speak for a ceasefire.

Lily Greenberg Call: Especially like for folks in the kind of professional sense, what you gain from being in integrity with yourself, you cannot buy that. 

You just cannot, it is completely priceless. And um, and something that really struck me that someone in the white house had these, we had these like listening sessions for Jewish appointees for Muslim appointees.

I mean, um, you know, understandably so in some ways, some of the Jewish people that I worked with said that they felt really powerless in the days in like October and in, after October 7th and I understand pain and Jewish fear and trauma and fear, a feeling of powerlessness, but we are letting that can blind people from the reality of what's happening. You are not powerless if you work in the White House, even if you don't, that's the thing, even you, everyone has power, like everyone has agency and part of the intention of fascism and the forces we're fighting against are to make people, [01:23:00] are to make things so terrible that you feel powerless

and the systems that we live in that are so oppressive are designed to make us forget our individual agency and power if we're not white men, really. The best way to fight against that is to use your voice and to be in community with other people and in solidarity with them. And I think, in particular for Jewish people, people like myself too, who like have the background that I did, who are worried about losing friends and family and loved ones and the fantasy of what Israel means and, and I think, are seeing that in such a visceral, clear way now, it's almost, it's impossible to ignore. I want them to listen to that voice inside that is saying that this is wrong. That's saying, it doesn't have to be like this. And that is your Jewishness. That is not in conflict with who you are. That is not in conflict with the values that you were taught. That is this idea of B'Tselem Elohim, that like [01:24:00] everyone is made in the image of God. That's your truth, and it, you don't have to give that up to know that something, that this is wrong. And you know enough just by knowing that. You know enough. So that's what I would say. 

Katie Bogen: Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time and being willing not only to speak to us, but to speak as openly as you have and as vulnerably as you have. I know that this episode will move people to tears. Like I know there will be people who are changed by hearing your story and what you were willing to do.

And just, I'm so grateful for you. When we invited you on, we asked if you would, share a notable post or something that's come up for you recently. Do you have that share on hand?

Lily Greenberg Call: I do um, 

I actually have this 

um, it's, 

it's a poem. And it's part of this collection that the synagogue I go to in D. C., which is a very cool Reconstructionist anti Zionist shul called the new synagogue project, [01:25:00] put together for the High Holidays last year. So gotta shout them out. So there's a um, I don't know if y'all are familiar with her.

Her name is Aurora Levins Morales. She's a Jewish Puerto Rican poet. Elder activist, 

Katie Bogen: really 

Lily Greenberg Call: brilliant, special human being. And she, her work is incredible. There's a poem of hers called Ve'ahavta, which is the Ve'ahavta is like the holiest prayer in Judaism is called the Shema. It's two verses, but then there's a longer part of it, the Ve'ahavta. You're supposed to like, it's part of that is in a mezuzah, which is what Jews put on their doorway like the entrance to their homes. It's also on the tefillin, which are like, or what Jews wear, there's, you like, you use this prayer as a part of daily ritual in like daily life.

And so one of those she has a poem that's called Ve'ehavta and It has this last part of it is like really beautiful. It's really long, so I don't know. I can read just the last part if you guys want 

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Yeah.

Lily Greenberg Call: So the last part is called this [01:26:00] time and it goes, they say that other country over there, dim blue in the twilight farther than the orange stars exploding over our roofs is called peace. But who can find the way this time? We cannot cross until we carry each other. all of refugees, all of us prophets, no more taking turns on history's wheel, trying to collect old debts no one can pay. The will not open that way. This time that country is what we promise each other. Our rage pressed cheek to cheek until tears flood the space between them, until there are no enemies left. Because this time no one will be left to drown and all of us must be chosen. This time it's all of us or none. And

Okay.

think it's 

O wow. 

I, I think [01:27:00] that's, that is the ethos that like, we have to carry into this, right. jews and Palestinians, Israelis and Palestinians. Americans, like this moment, like you were saying, Katie, like we, it can be a paradigm shift in how things are and how. We heal and I just think that poem has given me a lot of strength in this time. 

Katie Bogen: Please send that to me so I can 

Lily Greenberg Call: absolutely. 

Katie Bogen: I want to read the full poem on my own time and sob in my apartment. Thank you. my share is along 

similar lines it's a similar quote by pleasure activist Adrian Marie Brown. She wrote pleasure activism as well as an upcoming book

we will not cancel us and it's about sort of collaboration and liberation. And she says liberated relationships are one of the ways we actually create abundant justice. The understanding that there is enough [01:28:00] attention, care, resource and connection. For all of us to access belonging, to be in our dignity and to be safe in community.

So that's what I want to leave our listeners with. And Hani, I want to hear yours too.

Dr .Hani Chaabo: It's so beautiful and serendipitous that all three of our shares are kind of along the same lines of this Shared humanity and the power of solidarity. This is actually what I did was I went on AI and I was trying to find similarities between some text from the Torah and some text from Islam. And AI wrote this really beautiful text, so I'm just going to read it as is in both Judaism and Islam. The pursuit of justice is a central tenet of faith. In the Hebrew Bible, the Prophet Micah urges us to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God. This call to action resonates deeply with the verse from the Qur'an, which instructs believers to [01:29:00] be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. These verses remind us that the pursuit of justice is not merely a social or political endeavor, but a spiritual imperative that transcends religious boundaries and unites us in our shared humanity. 

I also need you to send me that. 

Katie Bogen: Yep. 

Lily Greenberg Call: man. 

Katie Bogen: I think I'm going to need some crying time 

Lily Greenberg Call: yes,

Katie Bogen: Some good catharsis crying time. Shall we do

Lily Greenberg Call: do send me that verse. That's 

I will.

Thank you for sharing.

Dr .Hani Chaabo: Thank you for sharing. And thank you, Katie. And really, thank you so much for this energy that we created together. I am walking out of this interview heart full, and I know that there is a friendship here, [01:30:00] a kinship, a sibling ship between the three of us that I know will flourish as we be in solidarity on this path together.

So thank you so much for being with us Lily today. It was truly an honor. 

Lily Greenberg Call: was really healing and wonderful. And I'm, yeah, just, I echo everything that you just said. I so grateful to have new family in my beautiful circle. So thank you for the work you both are doing as well. That's really essential in this moment. 

Katie Bogen: Shall we do our closing prayer Hani? 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: let's do it to close, a little prayer. May all beings everywhere thrive in peace And

dignity and share in all our joys. 

Katie Bogen: and may we see true peace in the Middle East for all in our lifetime. Amen. 

Lily Greenberg Call: Amen.

Bezrat Hashem