Courage, Conscience, Joy: Journalism as Story & Spirituality

Join Ahmed Shihab El-Din, an Emmy-nominated journalist and producer, as he shares his powerful journey from a fragmented Palestinian ancestry to becoming a leading voice in global media. In this deeply personal conversation, Ahmed explores the weight of his name, the complexities of his queer and Palestinian identities, and the spiritual practice of bearing witness to both life and death. He offers a searing critique of mainstream media's "Do You Condemn?" trap, and shares his vision for a journalism of conscience that serves justice and truth. Through stories of intersectional solidarity, the politics of joy, and the courage to honor sadness and pain, Ahmed provides a masterclass in what it means to be a human being in a dehumanizing world.

Like to read? 👉🏼 Check Out these Blog Posts:

Fragmented and Found: Ahmed Shihab El-Din on Growing Up Palestinian Between Worlds

When Universities Betray Their Students: The Crackdown on Campus Activism

_____________________

🙏🏻 Help Support SuperHumanizer?

🫂 Click here to join our Patreon community for perks like connecting with our hosts Dr. Hani Chaabo & Katie Bogen.

💳 Click here for a PayPal donation.

👥 Your support is helping build our team to create more humanizing content. Thank you x infinity!!

⭐ Please leave us a review on Apple podcasts or Podchaser and share this episode to help us grow.

_____________________

❤️ Thank you for putting us in the top charts of more 35 countries worldwide, top 10% of pods on Spotify, top 25% on Buzzsprout and top 5% on Listen Notes.

🫶🏻 We'd love to hear from you. Please leave us a comment, we'll reply back!

📱Check out our visual reels on Instagram and Facebook. Video episodes on YouTube.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Super Humanizer Podcast, where we promote empathy and understanding in polarizing viewpoints through stories told by people living them.

[00:00:08] Hey, wonderful super Humanizer friends. This is Dr. Hani Chaabo. Before we dive into this awesome episode, I wanted to take a moment and be real with you. So much work goes into bringing you these conversations, the research, the preparation, the production. It's a labor of love, and it's a lot of real work.

[00:00:28] If you found value in these stories, we'd love your support. Join our Patreon for as little as $10 a month. You'll get early access to episodes, extended interviews, and even direct access to Katie and I, or you can send a one time or recurring donation through our PayPal link. Both links are in the show notes below.

[00:00:48] You are helping us build a team to produce more content and inspire more humanity. Thank you. Now let's get into it.

[00:01:00] Katie Bogen: All right. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Super Humanizer, where we look at the human stories behind polarizing topics. We really wanna understand the folks working to make our world fairer, kinder, and more human. My name is Katie Bogen.

[00:01:15] Dr. Hani Chaabo: And I am Dr. Hani Chaabo. Today we're so excited to welcome a very important voice and news today, Ahmed Shihab-Eldin. He's a journalist who's been nominated for an Emmy Award, a producer whose work has been recognized by the Peabody Awards. He's a truth truthteller and a storyteller. He often challenges powerful people and tries to help us connect with each other.

[00:01:37] He's also a graduate of Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, where he later came back to teach young journalists.

[00:01:44] Katie Bogen: We're so fortunate to be joined by Ahmed, whose life story is really as interesting as his work. He's originally Palestinian Kuwaiti, born in California and grew up in different countries like Egypt and Austria, and he has this very special way of seeing and communicating the world around him. Many people will know him from Al Jazeera's English show The Stream, which he both helped to create and hosted.

[00:02:08] And that show was new and exciting because it really let viewers be part of a conversation that they were being isolated from. It was even nominated for an Emmy award in 2012 for its innovation and its insights, and he's made powerful documentaries for Vice like the Cost of War in Iraq, a Generation of Birth Defects, which was nominated for a Peabody Award, as well as his BBC documentary Queer Egypt Under Attack, unveiled the complexity of certain human rights struggles across parts of the Arab world.

[00:02:39] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Besides these big awards, Ahmad has always been a leader in online news. Forbes Magazine named him one of their 30 under 30 people making a difference. Groups like Amnesty International have praised his brave reporting and he's still going strong. He recently started a new podcast called Out Loud with Ahmed Eldin.

[00:02:59] On it, he has honest talks with activists, artists, thinkers, and people shaking things up. People brave enough to question how things are. His podcast wants to cut through all the noise with talks that really matter, which really aligns with our why here on Super Humanizer.

[00:03:15] Katie Bogen: So Ahmed, you've spent your entire career helping us understand big and often overwhelming global problems from fairness and identity to what's happening in the Middle East in a world full of loud arguments and quick unstudied opinions. Your deep, caring and honest journalism has been like a guiding light for so many people, and we just cannot thank you space and time with us today. 

[00:03:39] Ahmed Eldin: Oh my God, I'm so humbled. I feel like you misled your audience. They're expecting something 

[00:03:44] Dr. Hani Chaabo: brilliant. 

[00:03:47] Katie Bogen: I'm certain that they'll get it.

[00:03:48] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Oh yes. Oh yes.

[00:03:50] Katie Bogen: We trust you implicitly.

[00:03:52] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Oh yes.

[00:03:53] Ahmed Eldin: Very happy to, be here. Really.

[00:03:56] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Habibi. Thank you. Thank you. So, before we get into all the awesomeness that you are, so our audience believes us, we have a little tradition here at Super Humanizer, a game called What Brings you Joy that we play with everyone. Would you play it with us?

[00:04:10] Ahmed Eldin: Sure. I love games.

[00:04:13] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Ahad. Habibi. What brings you joy?

[00:04:16] Ahmed Eldin: Dancing, particularly when it's windy. What brings you 

[00:04:21] Dr. Hani Chaabo: joy, 

[00:04:21] Ahmed Eldin: Katie?

[00:04:22] Katie Bogen: Amazing guest company. We've been following your work for so long. This is my first time getting to speak with you face to feels surreal. I'm like giddy. And also I feel like my mind is opening in preparation just to learn everything that you're gonna share with us today. So, feeling a lot of joy in the curiosity about you and your story.

[00:04:43] Hani, what brings you Oh, I love that. I will echo that as well. I'm so happy to be here with both of you and especially you Ahmad, because you were the first person I ever asked to come on Super Humanizer back when we were in agony. 

[00:04:56] Ahmed Eldin: Wow. Fantastic. 

[00:04:58] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yeah. Full circle. Yeah, totally. So thank you so much. We'll also to see that you have a new podcast now that really aligns with what we've been trying to do and for me to like watch you put more humanizing content out there, even more than all the humanizing content you've been putting out there.

[00:05:16] That brings me a lot of joy. Thank you. Back to you. What brings you joy?

[00:05:20] Ahmed Eldin: Ooh. Okay. Well I appreciate all the love. I wanna reciprocate it, but if I'm honest, what brings me joy is being around loving beings, particularly dogs I mean, I think humans can be loving beings so can many other animals, obviously.

[00:05:36] Dr. Hani Chaabo: I see the doggy in the background. Tell about the doggy!

[00:05:39] Ahmed Eldin: It's not my doggy, but you know, that's It's not about possession. It's like love is abundant and he gives me love when I need it. Especially these days.

[00:05:47] Dr. Hani Chaabo: I love that.

[00:05:48] Ahmed Eldin: We're always looking for love, so, yeah, creatures bring me joy. 

[00:05:52] Breathing, living, creatures.

[00:05:53] And you, Katie.

[00:05:55] So something that's been bringing me joy in the last week is I've been trying to balance time between academic and creative writing, and I just got a revise and resubmit that was really encouraging from the Journal of Sex Research on a paper, exploring women's experiences of objectification and how it impacts their sexual functioning.

[00:06:13] And just knowing that I can continue to do this work in the, you know, public facing activism and engage in my scholarship and take space for creative generativity bringing me a lot of joy and feelings of balance. So, a revise and resubmit at the Journal of Sex Research is like making me very happy.

[00:06:31] Hani, what brings you joy?

[00:06:33] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Oh, congratulations. That's amazing. It's so important for us to be engaged in science while we are being activists. It's really serendipitous that you are saying that as well, because we just published some articles in the World Health Organization, Eastern Mediterranean Health Journal through the organization, Children Not Numbers, which if you don't know the organization, they are helping to rescue children from Gaza to receive lifesaving care elsewhere.

[00:07:00] And we were super humbled that in this particular issue of the Journal, we had more than five publications that highlighted the stories of children and what they're going through. And it's really like, it's hard to feel anything more than just hopeful that their stories are gonna be heard in these scientific journals.

[00:07:21] But I would say it's not something that brought me joy, but it's certainly something that brought me pride to know that I'm a small part of the scientific body that's helping shed light on the stories of these children. Back to...

[00:07:35] Ahmed Eldin: how many rounds is it?

[00:07:36] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Three.

[00:07:38] Katie Bogen: Three. 

[00:07:38] Dr. Hani Chaabo: One more.

[00:07:39] Ahmed Eldin: This is the culmination. What else brings me joy? I was gonna say something more generally. I think.

[00:07:44] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes.

[00:07:45] Ahmed Eldin: Building off what you both shared, being in connection, especially these days, I can attest that I felt a lot of disassociation, disconnection. And so when sort of serendipitous things happen wherein you sort of collide with people who connect with you on a level very naturally, it's like you feel this very innate gratitude to your point and joy,

[00:08:12] That they exist and that you can have those sort of surprising encounters that remind you.

[00:08:18] That there's joy and goodness and, all that good

[00:08:22] stuff How What's your third?

[00:08:24] Katie Bogen: I could not agree with you more. I just went to this writing retreat in rural Tennessee. I was there for six days and I was not expecting when I was there necessarily to wind up in conversation about Palestine. But one of the authors who was working on a collection of poetry there was a front facing activist in the Black Lives Matter movement, and had also traveled to occupied Palestine and her youth, and witnessed the apartheid in real time.

[00:08:49] And she and I wound up having so many beautiful conversations about how we came to, like Zionist criticality, particularly coming from

[00:08:57] spiritual backgrounds. And we wound up engaging this whole group of writers in conversation about Palestinian liberation and creativity and how these worlds really overlap.

[00:09:08] And it was such surprising kisemt. And I think if both of us hadn't been on that retreat, I'm not sure that conversation would've happened in quite the same like open-hearted and organic way. So this is me shouting out Janisha.

[00:09:23] And then Charlotte, Laurie and Christie, who I just got to spend a week writing with.

[00:09:26] I finished my third book, a full draft of my third book. 

[00:09:29] I started my fouth.

[00:09:31] And we had so many conversations about liberation. Yeah The creative generative energy has been very loud and just those conversations are so moving.

[00:09:40] So, Hani, my love, what brings you joy?

[00:09:43] Dr. Hani Chaabo: of echoing both of what you're saying about the kindness in humanity and how that's a source of hope and joy. I am often a clumsy person as much as my life is put together.

[00:09:55] also very chaotic sometimes in my head. And so I left my mailbox key in my mailbox, which is a communal mailbox the other day, and heard a lot from my partner about how clumsy I am and how I lose everything, and that's fine. And then ended up finding the key again in my mailbox. So somebody took the key out of my mailbox door and put it back into the mailing of the mailbox, and then the post office mailed it back to me.

[00:10:24] Ahmed Eldin: Oh my God. 

[00:10:25] Dr. Hani Chaabo: That was a really happy ending to that story of chaos. And so the kindness of strangers really brought me joy and saved my marriage. I would say.

[00:10:34] Ahmed Eldin: Hey, that's, you should repay them somehow.

[00:10:38] Dr. Hani Chaabo: I know if only I knew who they were. 

[00:10:41] Ahmed Eldin: You'll meet them in life.

[00:10:43] Dr. Hani Chaabo: I hope so. 

[00:10:43] Katie Bogen: This is you putting it out into the universe too, come back. 

[00:10:46] Dr. Hani Chaabo: If you mailed me my mailbox, please contact me anywhere you can find me. I'll reply back to you. Thank you so I really, loved that game. It was a joy getting to know you more through your joys, Ahmad, and now we will get to know you actually through your story.

[00:11:02] Katie Bogen: Yes. So we know your background is so interesting We did a little primer on it during the intro but would you tell us more about your ancestry your lineage and how you became a journalist.

[00:11:12] Ahmed Eldin: Absolutely ancestry lineage. You know, I wish I would've spent more time digging into the specifics of it. Obviously I'm Palestinian in the sense that both my parents were born and raised there. my dad left in 48. My mom left in 67. I'm born in the States, as you said, raised sort of all over in Kuwait, Egypt, Austria for high school.

[00:11:36] And I think the most relevant part of sort of my history is that, wherever I was always keenly searching for belonging. And I think that's like universal in the human experience. But I think for me a lot of shuttling, both between like geo, you know, like east and west. And in each place I had a very, you know, different attachment, different sense of identity.

[00:12:01] And that was, fun to play with.

[00:12:03] 

[00:12:03] Ahmed Eldin: But also somewhat unsettling as a kid. But, you know, I carry, I don't want to get too. I don't wanna say negative, but you know, part of what I feel rather than think or know about my ancestry is that it does feel very fragmented. Like, I feel that viciously, because, you know, when part of your history is so presently or so, obviously about erasure, it's also about a lot of other things as a consequence, resilience and all these other things, right?

[00:12:34] So for me, I think being a journalist was a, I always joke that it was a bit of a mistake. it was a haphazard accident. You know, I always loved asking questions and my dad had a lot of answers as a kid, 'cause he was quite to say the least. And then I always kept love, I kept asking questions, and then I it dawned on me at a young age that there's some power in stories. You know, whatever, however you want to understand power. And so I think I chose to become a storyteller, not just to do the obvious, which is to inform people about things, but also remind people about things that are deliberately forgotten.

[00:13:19] Dr. Hani Chaabo: mm-hmm 

[00:13:20] Katie Bogen: Yeah unveiling that process of pulling back the curtain or lifting the rug and reminding folks, this is here even when we don't wanna name it. This is in our context and you have this remarkable gift. I mean storytelling is not skill it's really a gift And I feel like when you have that thing that spark of being able to pull a narrative thread for someone and engage them in unveiling that becomes apparent to you quite young because other folks notice that you can do it.

[00:13:51] So was there a specific time when you were younger where you realized or the folks who were are were you realized Ahmed has a gift for this.

[00:13:58] Ahmed Eldin: Oh, God, you're making me really look at myself. This is like therapy, but better.

[00:14:05] Dr. Hani Chaabo: We get that a lot. 

[00:14:06] Ahmed Eldin: No, you know, yeah, that's a good thing. I think in this day and age you know, it's spot on, not just in, I guess you applying that to me, but I've also, I mean, not to deflect, but like I've observed that in a lot of my friends' kids who are like quite but have that same natural kind of innate voluble ability to connect different things in a way and make it engaging and entertaining.

[00:14:29] But yeah, I think like, I don't know, you know, we can be, I can be vague about it and say it's in our blood, it's in our lineage. Hakawatis, storytellers cultural traditions passed on generation after generation. But I think that there was also something where. You know, attention is obviously part of the equation when you're telling story because you need to engage It's not like, oh, all eyes on me, attention on me.

[00:14:56] But I think, to answer your question pointedly, Katie, I think, yeah, when I was about six, seven or eight beyond the incessant talking, there was always performing. So I would tell stories through different modalities of expression, and that was something that I think came very, naturally maybe to my parents' concern, like a little too naturally some stories like did he really hear that?

[00:15:20] Like I quite observant as a kid too, so.

[00:15:22] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Nice.

[00:15:24] Ahmed Eldin: yeah, I don't know. I think mostly it would be my mom who noticed and was probably the one responsible for cultivating it the most.

[00:15:34] Katie Bogen: It's that natural theater kid energy. Relatable.

[00:15:38] Ahmed Eldin: And shaking. 

[00:15:42] Dr. Hani Chaabo: We know you dance and now we know that you are all about all kinds of performances. 

[00:15:45] Yeah, it's so funny 

[00:15:45] Ahmed Eldin: how world is like always, I guess it's like for me about the dance of it all. It's like, I mean, not to get, look, there was a moment during the last two years during the genocide where I just really needed to indulge in something that feels very, and maybe the way I presented it, people can argue about, but I think, you know, when you dance, you, I mean, it's cheesy to some to hear this, but I mean, dance is one of the most powerful forms of story, one of the most primal forms of storytelling and you and see that across Palestine as well. It's not this abstract, you know what I mean. Yes. 

[00:16:20] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Maybe I'm wrong, but is, I dunno if it's a Dabke there but definitely a dance that looks like a Dabke and it's a dance of resistance coming and so. I can't help when we're talking about, resistance and Palestine just expressing ourselves and standing up for something that's right. The students at Columbia University who were people that express themselves loud and proud and were our hope and joy for so long when it was peaking and it was going strong and then all the cruelty happened with what we're seeing with the students that are being prosecuted unfairly. Mohsen Mahdawi, Mahmoud Khali is just absolutely shocking what's happening.

[00:17:04] And you are a Columbia University alumnus, and I know you've also been to the encampments and you've taught at Columbia. So I wanted to know what was your perspective or your experience when you saw all this happen?

[00:17:16] Ahmed Eldin: I think one way of answering that is. It was both and remains to be a real source of hope in this very dark time, especially when it first happened. It felt very authentic, very accessible, very diverse, and very much needed, like something that was reaction to the moment and to what happening. And, you know, back then it was people like Katie, you know, and others who I came across who, grew up in a very different context, religious, cultural than me. But there is some overlap. And I started seeing, particularly Jewish students become a source of hope for me for better or worse.

[00:17:59] Especially between October and, January. And I guess what I'm trying to say is

[00:18:04] it's as much a source of hope as it is a source of sort of harrowing concern for where we're all headed and what's really at stake and what's been the cost of this genocide beyond the obscene and, and sort harrowing and sobering human cost, but the way that the student movement was crushed in such a well coordinated, well-funded, and then also well defended or well obfuscated by the media.

[00:18:34] Like for I guess what I'm trying to say is like in the answer, just to connect the last two questions, When I was really young, you know, I realized I could help people understand complex things on a certain level. Like, for example, when I, ironically there's a lot of displacement and disconnection in my family.

[00:18:53] So during the Gulf War, we were living in Kuwait, and then every summer we would spend the summers in California. Long story short, I found myself in California all of a sudden in public school, very different environment than where I was when I was living in Kuwait with my family.

[00:19:07] all this to say it was there that I had to explain to kids like, 'cause the Gulf War started and then the US got involved.

[00:19:14] So there were young people who were like, where are you from? I'm Palestinian. Oh, is that where there's war? Yeah. Oh, so it's the war in the Kuwait? No, that's another war. But are you also from Kuwait?

[00:19:21] Yeah, I'm also from Kuwait. So kind like that fragmentation of self and, but also like having to explain that at a young age, I think gives you certain skills.

[00:19:29] Now how is that Columbia? Maybe other time in my life where I kind of realized that I, you know, storytelling and me as a conduit could really help people understand not just complex things about my identities, but sort of the true profound potential of this craft of storytelling.

[00:19:47] you know, the power that comes with it is when I went to Columbia because before then I say I became a journalist as an accident. 'cause like I was younger and I didn't know what I wanted to study. I just loved to tell stories. I started writing for my school paper. Then I got into Columbia and at Columbia that's where I really, I think. Cemented for me. I started to understand that this could be a skill, a profession, but also maybe it's just an identity, right? I'm a storyteller, this is what naturally to me. Okay? If there's a way I can do this and make money great, or earn a living great or impact people's lives all the better.

[00:20:22] And what I'm trying to say is witnessing the way Columbia played a role at the beginning of the student movement and then what that led to and how Columbia sort of cowered. I mean, it's been heartbreaking. It's been deeply personal as well on an identity level. 'cause Columbia, you know, even though I had a lot of friction there it's undoubtedly played a role in teaching me how to interrogate power.

[00:20:50] And then to watch the same institution, you know, perform power, cower to coward, the power. These students, you know, particularly Mohsen and Mahmoud, I mean, they're not just protesting and they were, you know, and all the Jewish students who not only were there from beginning, but who then went- they- what really touched me was seeing how they.

[00:21:13] Consistently across the US but really the world, but in the US in particular, are the ones who stood in solidarity when the, what do they say when things got really chaotic, I saw more clarity and compassion at all the encampments, that I visited in the States, but also in the UK.

[00:21:33] In the students, and I've seen in any of the newsrooms or boardrooms that I've been part of, I mean, so for me, the crackdown in Columbia in particular was really ideological and it marked a really scary time in the US reality.

[00:21:53] Katie Bogen: Absolutely. As you're speaking about this, I'm thinking about the psychology behind institutional betrayal and some work by like Smith and Fray in the early two thousands who looked at how sexual violence survivors interface with their institutions during investigations. And there's something so similar to me about these crackdowns from these institutions that are supposed to teach critical thought.

[00:22:16] Actually examining primary source material, learning history, applying these pattern narratives to what they understand of the world. And the students are doing that. They're doing exactly what they've been instructed to do, and the institution is punishing them, expelling them rescinding their degrees. And there's this similar psychological violence that happens not only via the threat of censure and sanction from these institutions but being taught to do something by these institutions. Doing precisely that, and then receiving immediate and stark punishment.

[00:22:51] So destabilizing not only for the alum, but for the kids.

[00:22:55] Ahmed Eldin: Yeah. I just wanna quickly affirm something that I think gets lost in this. It's like, what was an opportunity when there's a crisis, whether Gaza or Trump, and the sort of crisis around democracy. At least that's how the media's framing it. I mean, Columbia.

[00:23:11] Could and should. They could they should be mustering the courage to kind of lead by example.

[00:23:17] Some people say Harvard tried to do that. Some people disagree, but they could have, you know, really affirmed what journalism in this moment is supposed to be, the fourth estate rather than a rubber stamp for power. And they did the opposite and they did it consistently. I mean, just the other day, I mean, I don't know if you saw, but they're like arresting, not only arresting students, but, what was it, did you see what happened yesterday?

[00:23:40] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yesterday. No. What?!

[00:23:41] Ahmed Eldin: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, anyway. Well, I don't know. There's so many.

[00:23:45] Dr. Hani Chaabo: No. Tell us, please look it up if you like.

[00:23:47] Ahmed Eldin: Well, no, I mean, like, there's just reports. I dunno. When they went to Butler's Hall and they occupied it, they arrested 80 students and I guess. I'm shocked at the way in which like it's always the university's police officers that are reported as being the more aggressive, the more violent than the actual NYPD police officers.

[00:24:08] I mean, suspending students for doing their job as journalists at a journalist school. Not that it was the journalism school that suspended them, but you know, this is a university where the Pulitzer Prizes are like, it's shocking to me. That these choices are being made. Shocking, not because I'm surprised, but like I don't know if people are like, do I care about the stakes more than others?

[00:24:32] Or do people not realize what's at stake? 

[00:24:35] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Right. Great question. Great question. I've wondered the same myself, especially coming here as an immigrant, believing in the rights and the glitteriness of what I signed up for when I came to live here, and then watching all of that breakdown in the face of a very clear human rights issue, which is the genocide in Palestine that's been going on since 1946.

[00:25:03] And it just, it's really shocking to me to, I feel like I'm living a double life sometimes, you know, when we're seeing all my progressive friends and how like angry they get about DEI issues and you know, I've been a DEI champion in the medical field, but then it's like DEI, excluding Palestine. You know, it's just, it's shocking.

[00:25:24] And then to see the actual law. Go after people who are standing up for basic humanity on Palestine. And then what happened to green card holders is quite shocking in terms of what that means as the law for all of us in this country, no matter who we are. And we're certainly seeing that happen now. They're threatening medical institutions and medical journals.

[00:25:47] The American Academy of Family Physicians, my own society had to put out a statement and they usually don't get political at all. And that was the first time, you know, they got political, I guess. But talking about journalism and honest journalism and telling stories. You made documentaries like Queer Egypt Under Attack for the BBC, which showed how lgbtq plus people in Egypt are targeted by gangs and even the police sometimes through dating apps.

[00:26:15] And you used special technology to protect their identities, because those were brave people who shared their experiences and needed protection. You told sensitive stories of the dangers people face from long-term effects of war, as in your Peabody nominated film on Iraq. So you've spent your whole career reporting on the oppressed and less fortunate, which we've heard a little bit about why you do that.

[00:26:37] And I'm wondering what keeps you sane and helpful and human in this when you can easily get mad and hateful.

[00:26:44] Ahmed Eldin: That's a great question. 

[00:26:47] What keeps me human is the process of doing that work in a weird way. You know, these places that. I go to or that anyone goes to more than anything, they are mirrors and what they often reflect to me, you know, about who I am or who we as a collective are, is really profound and keeps me feeling human because the way I can connect to someone in their truth without judgment or suspending my own perspective. It's like a way for me, that's when I feel most energized, or at least during my career when I was a field reporter. I mean, I go to them not out of courage. People are always like, you're so brave. You were here, you were there, you did this. But to me, I know it sounds like maybe righteous, but like it's really out of conscience.

[00:27:41] Like the name of Flotilla that was so brutally attacked just a week or two ago. I mean, I'm drawn to people I think who are complex. Who've struggled, who've been silenced, who've been marginalized, not because I think they need me or it's some like complex, but because I really think we need them. We need them to keep us sane. We need them to keep us, not just humbled, you know, we need them to keep us honoring what it means to be us rather than us and them. You know, not reducing marginalized communities to trauma, but showing their joy. You know, people use the term humanizing. I think it's overused. It can also be somewhat problematic, but like just what you started this conversation with.

[00:28:31] You know, showing people's joy, showing their wit, showing their survival, and so I stay grounded. I stay in that ritual of connecting with a stranger. Finding what we have in common and different, and navigating through that, through remembering that anger, strife, differences without love. Like what's the, I don't know what's the point Like to me, that's when I feel most connected, I'm, those places, it's weird. Not when I'm on vacation, like, you know, at some bougie beach.

[00:29:04] Dr. Hani Chaabo: That's beautiful.

[00:29:05] Katie Bogen: But I do think there's something, to the distinction between courage and conscience that I think people struggle with, like detangling those things because they really are, some mirror characteristics can be challenging for folks. But you're right, like this is not always a oh, look how brave I am.

[00:29:23] Look at this amazing work that I'm doing. It's how could I not, when people are out there risking everything that is to be risked, 

[00:29:29] Ahmed Eldin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:30] Katie Bogen: How can I not at least attempt to be a collaborator? And I think the work that you've been able to do there in terms of elevation and making yourself sort of the human version of a megaphone is so spectacular and really important, and you've done it without sacrificing the fullness of your human self in that you acknowledge that you have a right to joy. If we don't experience joy, pleasure, groundedness, et cetera, we lose the reminders of what it is we are fighting for other people. And when our movements police each other into misery as opposed to saying like, I experience happiness and it is a tangible truth for me, and thus I understand why other people have the right to exactly this, and I'm going to fight for that. That seems like a much more sustainable threat, and I've seen you do this.

[00:30:18] Ahmed Eldin: Well, no, I, Katie, you're really kind to remind me of that importance because, you know, as I said earlier, without being redundant at the beginning when I saw the documentary, Israelism, I saw you, I saw that voice literally from the Jewish community. I naturally needed to connect on some level, even if you and I never spoke, and I'm not trying to like overstate our connection, but for me, all those connections in the early days, I don't know.

[00:30:48] It's almost as if without those, like there were times where I was not experiencing joy. I had no capacity to feel joy.

[00:30:57] I was beyond depressed and not to make it about me. But in those sort of moments of despair. It was a really healthy and welcome reminder to me that solidarity doesn't require sameness.

[00:31:13] In fact, professional solidarity, resistance, whatever you want to call it. When I saw students, when I saw Jewish people, when I saw people from all sort of different backgrounds rejecting the binary that says if you support Palestinians, you're against Jews, or if you support Palestinians, you're this, you know, they were embodying to me a truth that, you know, may feel unattainable or not even real or possible, but that liberation is collective.

[00:31:40] And I've heard you speak about this at length. I mean, to me, the deepest form of anti-racist, anti-Zionist, anti, you know, is to insist on the shared humanity. Even when this system is designed or to profit and pit us against each other. You know what I mean? Particularly, and so when you say to encourage and conscience, I don't wanna over philosophize, but I have a willingness to face physical danger, threats, backlash,

[00:32:12] smear campagins around whatever.

[00:32:16] And so I show up when the costs are high, and maybe that's a form of courage. But then to me, the more important and the one that I wonder more about is conscience. Like, it's like why I tell a story to me I always like when, you know, when I even used to try to work as a freelance reporter because I was so fed up with being, anyway, I don't wanna get into, but the point being.

[00:32:42] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Please do.

[00:32:43] Ahmed Eldin: Why and the how of why a reporter tells a story is reflective of something that I think helps keep this guise of objectivity that's done so much destruction to keeping the public informed. To me, it's like the internal compass and what it is founded from is like this core of what stories should I pursue?

[00:33:06] Whose voices do I wanna center in a particular story? What truth should I elevate as if there's one truth, as if it's Israel and Palestine and that's it. I mean, you know, those are all done to limit our understanding and therefore limit the possibility for solutions. All these things about, you know, and so for me, yeah, the best journalism you need both and to report with conscience is a way to make sure that truth or truths serve justice rather than the oppresive.

[00:33:36] Katie Bogen: I am hearing this metaphor come through, at least for me, of, you know, we've talked about the narrative thread, and liberation is a fabric.

[00:33:45] You do not have to be the entire blanket. Or the entire curtain, you need to exist as a single thread and only through the process of weaving, which is one of the things that storytelling does so effectively, are we able to provide folks with the comfort that they need and really resource them.

[00:34:04] And so I just so appreciate what you shared and Ahmed I know that you're a journalist with Palestinian Roots. You have this special and deep understanding when you report on Palestine that just not everyone will share. And you've said that the Palestinian story is often not fully told or is misunderstood in the main news, and you've risked going on some really public shows, like discussing this with Piers Morgan, where these conversations get heated and you face questions or comments that as you are trying to actively humanize this group, you are facing dehumanization and racism and this othering in these contexts, and I can imagine that there's a level of trauma or disconnection that you have to face as you're trying to advocate for your own people and your humanity so publicly. You've written on your substack about, you know, really thinking hard before going on shows like this, acknowledging what's at stake.

[00:34:59] And so some of this has been, you know, in this context, rife with emotional and psychological violence. You've had to do this advocacy work even beyond the physical and embodied violence that you face as a journalist. But you've also worked on The Stream, which was nominated for an Emmy. You've brought all these different voices into conversation.

[00:35:16] That was heavily powered by social media, citizenship journalism, and such a shift from traditional news shows. And you've been able to really weave the fabric of this conversation together via, you know, your different guest activists, bloggers, everyday people affected by this work. And you've been navigating this in the online space.

[00:35:38] As I'm asking this question, I'm also attempting to weave. So you've faced down Piers Morgan and the violence of being in contexts like this, you've tried to create spaces that are much more actively humanizing via the stream and now via your podcast, and you've done this in an online sphere where people are disinhibited and will say truly vile things to you because they see you as a media personality and they themselves are disassociated online.

[00:36:05] Can you talk about what it's been like to navigate those different social geographies as you try to do this work?

[00:36:14] Ahmed Eldin: No, I really appreciate the question and the framing. For me, it's become something that's been conditioned into me. I think. I've never been a patient person, but I always credit Piers Morgan and others like him for making me more patient.

[00:36:33] Dr. Hani Chaabo: All of us with you.

[00:36:35] Ahmed Eldin: If I'm honest as well, it's really like unnerving that the tenor and tone of these conversations forget, like the lack truth and, you know, all that other much more problematic stuff. It's just crazy that it's skills I learned when I was bullied, when I was a tween and a teenager that I use when I'm on those kinds of shows. I mean, back then I didn't have the confidence.

[00:36:59] I think it's really just knowing that the truth is on my side, knowing that facts and critical thinking is something that is not to be ridiculed or interrupted. So when they do, but I do lose my cool. And I do wonder whether it's really particularly Piers' show. I don't know how destructive or constructive an appearance on Piers' show is for me as a Palestinian, as a journalist, as a critical thinker, as a self-respecting human being.

[00:37:27] But the point is, I also remember. You know, on talk tv, on all these sort of, even Fox, when I used to go on even CNN, quite frankly, long before the genocide, unfortunately, you know, they want you to come on and perform. I mean, when Piers has put of us on, there's an aspect of it that's, you know, that they want you to be a monkey.

[00:37:47] I mean, I was even gonna joke when you asked me this really eloquent, well thought out question. To just respond the way he would, which is all right. That may be true and we could discuss that later, but Katie, do you condemn Hamas or do you think that the hostages should be released because, you know, maybe what I'm trying to say is like...

[00:38:08] Katie Bogen: It's so Dance Monkey.

[00:38:10] Ahmed Eldin: Exactly. And so I carry authentic parts of me when I'm there. Right before we go live. I think of my mother's heartbreak withnessing another nakba and the subtle changes in her and for her to witness this, my cousin's bravery in Jordan or wherever else they may be living. I'm being vague on purpose, the archives of my people's dignity.

[00:38:33] I mean, I prepare by centering myself in my truth and not just showing up with a whole bunch of facts and persuasive points. You know, I try to stay calm by breathing. I suck at it.

[00:38:44] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Mmm.

[00:38:45] Ahmed Eldin: But it is helpful and I just try to remember that like I'm not here to, that's why like, I don't wanna get into the nitty gritty of the last appearance, but let's just say people are like, oh, but you said this thing, or you said exactly what he wanted you. And it sucks to say, but they just want you to perform. They want you, you know, they want you to be a certain way, whether it's like a victim or a whatever, it might be a terrorist. Right? I mean, last time I was on the show with Sharon Osborne, I was called a terrorist.

[00:39:15] I was accused of killing Jews. I mean, the level of dis- and not even in an appointed, like substantial way, just like, you know, like what? You're at a Trump rally. There's like 12 year olds, saying things. So yeah, I'm there to witness stuff as much as I'm there to be a mirror as much as I can allow me to be to, to their own life of humanity and critical thinking.

[00:39:39] But it's so sad. The level of discourse, not just on those shows, but really in the establishment media across the board. 

[00:39:48] Katie Bogen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:49] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes. So well said, habibi, I really admire you when I see you on there, and I can tell, I mean, obviously you're on there and when you're being attacked in that way, you know you're not gonna just sit there and smile, which thankfully, you know, you're not that much of a monkey, thank God. Right? Like, you're not gonna just sit there and smile and take this from them, and it's heche when I see you receiving that we are all receiving it with you. And when you put on that brave face and when you stay eloquent, which you always manage to do by the way, when you stay eloquent like that, we're on that behind that screen cheering you on and clapping for you and feeling so proud of you for standing up for all of us when you appear on those shows.

[00:40:31] And I also wanna say like, you're such a big figure for all of us, right? Like you have a million plus followers on Instagram. People absolutely adore you.

[00:40:41] Ahmed Eldin: I'm not trying to be...

[00:40:42] I wish it was meaningful. I mean, I know reach matters and all this, but yeah, I appreciate that.

[00:40:48] Dr. Hani Chaabo: But it's, you know, it's there for a reason, right? I mean, it's not just because you're selling a product or.

[00:40:54] Ahmed Eldin: When the israeli government makes take down requests. They can approve them. That's why it's there. Sorry, I'm being very facetious.

[00:41:00] Katie Bogen: I mean, the cynicism. The cynicism is welcome too. The cynicism is absolutely 100 percent grounded in reality. 

[00:41:06] Ahmed Eldin: We started with joy, we're in the cynical now. 

[00:41:08] Dr. Hani Chaabo: No, we totally feel you.

[00:41:09] Katie Bogen: It's alright. can sink into that too.

[00:41:10] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yeah, we totally feel you. And the reason I'm saying all of this is because in our own space and the pro-Palestinian space, there's also a lot of dissonance. And I love the word social geography because, so certainly we've had to navigate that space in our own movement.

[00:41:26] And you know, we're, there's mental health professional here. There's a doctor, there's a world renowned journalist and figure of humanity for us. And I was hoping maybe you could comment for us about is the pro-Palestine movement monolithic or is it diverse? And how much diversity is okay if we consider the spectrum from Thabit to acceptable normalization, whatever that means. 

[00:41:50] Ahmed Eldin: It's a great, great question. And it's one we don't talk often enough about and it's also one that in my first podcast episode for Out Loud, I chose to do it with Motaz and it just so happened to come at a time when he was maybe facing some of those divisions, you know, that do exist in terms of, the, you know, the pro-Palestinian movement.

[00:42:16] And again, I frame my answer in this way because for as much as I think it's important, like I, you know, we all wish there was more unity in the world, in Palestine in any context, but reality, to answer the question is it's deeply diverse and much more so than we know. And I don't think that's, that's its strength in a way.

[00:42:45] So, you know, even though there's room for disagreement, you know what I think Katie does so well and others is make it accessible to actually hold space for each other authentically, not with like a litmus test or of how, you know, politically aligned or righteous. I mean, Thabit to the reformists, we're all reckoning with an open wound. So vilifying people like Motaz, as I saw happening the week I happened to see him at the web summit, when I started seeing, you know, I announced briefly on a story and people immediately, and it came from mostly Palestinians. And to me it's such an obvious extension of the divide and conquer sort of nature of idealism and its long lasting effects that it's so disheartening for me to see.

[00:43:39] 'cause again, I ask, why is this happening? Why are people vilifying? What is it? And it's understandable. There's resentments, there's jealousy, there's also just accusations and you know. But I think the most important thing that I can say, I mean this might not be the most eloquent answer, but we really have to be willing to sit with discomfort without exiling each other.

[00:44:04] From each other from the cause.

[00:44:06] Without nuance on Piers Morgan it's the same thing that, you know, in the political context or the social context without nuance, like, we are not gonna have liberation. For me, I am super disappointed when I see, or even people saying, why are you amplifying this person? They're Jewish and they once were in Israel. 

[00:44:27] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yeah.

[00:44:28] Ahmed Eldin: Or they have ties to Israel, or, you know, and it's like, I'm very keen to amplify messages from a wide range of context that speak to the core of this thing we're discussing as it relates to Israel Palestine, which is injustice and dehumanization. At its core, that's what it's about because all the things Israel has accomplished since October 7th and the decades before.

[00:44:55] Are contingent upon, and it was clearly outlined. I mean, Katie's much more well versed I think on this than me, but it was clearly outlined in a lot of the Zionist, early ideologies.

[00:45:06] What I'm trying to say is like, is part of what made me want to create this podcast was to have a space where when I do talk about Palestine, when I do have Palestinians on that, that it's not just diverse, but that it's a reminder for me.

[00:45:24] It's like in any movement, we often focus on what we shouldn't do rather than what we should do, what we shouldn't feel, rather than what we should feel. And I guess to me it's obvious that focusing on division at a time of so much fracture and displacement and erasure is just not constructive. And I know that's like, I'm not trying to judge it, but it's like I resist the urge to fall into that.

[00:45:50] And I think that's, it's not an accident. It's something deliberately being done. Does that make sense?

[00:45:59] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes.

[00:46:00] Katie Bogen: 100% I think all the time about this idea of like no activist robots. Like the brainwashing doesn't happen in a vacuum. Like we are all fighting this wave of propaganda all the time. And like I consider the amount of privilege I had to have in order to unlearn zionism, I grew up in this Zionist household.

[00:46:22] I'm the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor. Like I was really inundated with messages about the benign or even munificent impacts of Israel on my family and then had to go to a liberal arts college that didn't have a lot of public funds, so they were able to talk about the Middle East, and I was able to take coursework in Palestine.

[00:46:42] I had to be in the political science department in a program that also had a genocide studies focus. I had to have a a professor who had been a journalist in Jordan and was more sympathetic to Palestine and brave enough to teach this material. I had to take coursework for years. I had to visit Israel and have the money to go and do that and see the apartheid in real time.

[00:47:04] That's so many layers of privilege that it took for me to begin the unlearning. And so I'll meet people now who are in the very, very early stages of seeing some news that disturbs them and they're not on board yet because they're where I was when 17. I can't tell that person, fuck you. You're a bad person for not knowing this already.

[00:47:25] It just doesn't make any sense 

[00:47:27] Ahmed Eldin: if you are-.

[00:47:27] You know, that is the instinct of many Katie, like not many. I'm saying, you maybe recognize that's, you can't do it because it's not gonna be effective, let alone like conducive to any sort of outcome that is desirable. But, you know, that's why I feel like like.

[00:47:44] I remember as you were talking, 'cause some of those tidbits that you shared with us, you had shared in some of your videos.

[00:47:50] I found it so. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't wanna overstate it, but there were a lot of people, look, I'm just gonna keep it 100. Handful of people who initially were like, oh, but Katie this and Katie that, as you know, people do, and you know, people do that to me on the daily. So it's like, I'm just, when I see it, when I see it swell, when I see discomfort in any form around like a new way of understanding something that you care so passionately about just by virtue of Katie and who she is and all those things she described. It's like when I see resistance towards that or reluctance to I don't know, that makes me want to double down on those sorts of things and that's why I wanted to screen Israelism, even though it's like not a movie that's particularly for people already in the know about Palestine in the Arab world, but I think we can derive a lot from just seeing another person's truth and why are you so uncomfortable if it's almost the same kind of in line with the same values. But you know, we live in these tribalisms. 

[00:48:55] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Hmm. So beautifully said. I totally agree with you. And really, I mean it goes full circle back to the humanization, the undoing of the dehumanization that you talked about, and if there's not all the opportunity and gifts like Katie had. To undo all of that, then us being together in solidarity and allowing difference and allowing opinion and going back to the shared humanity, like you said, that is actually what's going to bring us towards a solution.

[00:49:29] It's not more dehumanization. It's not more polarity. And like you said, they want us to be divided. And so for me, I feel like it's really going back to remembering that solidarity is what's gonna take us past. The problem of this, and they are dehumanizing us, so we have to be better than them and their tactics, and we have to continue anchoring in our humanity.

[00:49:53] And diversity has always been consistently shown to be a good thing in any system, whether that's a activist movement or a healthcare system, or the government or society in general. And I love that you on your new podcast. It's, that's the whole angle is to have these human conversations. I love that Motaz was your first guest on there and you certainly had a very deeply human conversation and I also saw some of those comments under the post of all the, you know, noise that comes with all the polarity in our movement. But when you were having your conversation with him, I felt like you had a conversation that allowed people to rewarm up to Motaz, get over some of their stuff, and warm up to the person he is. You sang with him-

[00:50:40] Ahmed Eldin: I appreciate that.

[00:50:41] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Offered him to on an island with you. 

[00:50:43] Ahmed Eldin: Yeah. That was not the best choice of words perhaps. Makes me sound more powerful than I am. But, I'm interjecting for one thing, as you were speaking, I got giddy. It's like the ADHD in me. And I started thinking to myself, you know, there were some people who were like expecting it to be more about Fetah and Hamas or politically minded, or like, more like gotcha.

[00:51:09] Challenge him. And like, you know, journalism in that context is about holding the powerful to account. And Motaz is powerful inherently. But look, I also have come to know him somewhat and in that moment, you know, you gotta do what feels right.

[00:51:25] And I focus on the feeling 'cause it was clear to me that he was in a really low place energetically, and you can't have a certain type of interview.

[00:51:35] Not that I wanted to have an interview that was gonna be about like, are you this, are you that I wanted to have an interview that was gonna give him space to breathe and space to be away away from the headlines and from... You know why? Because I started that podcast because I needed a space to breathe.

[00:51:53] Like I needed a place where I wasn't gonna be reacting or trying to persuade people to care or to move or to do something, or to inform people necessarily. For me, it was like, I want to be a conduit, and I had this ache inside me where I was, you know, I love talking to people and I'd sort of like sort of lost that love in the moment.

[00:52:17] And I, you know, I wanted to talk with people. I didn't wanna have this like... like the one one view another view. I don't think, you know, there's a space and time for everything, but Motaz was an obvious choice for me just to frame it. And then people might expect it's gonna be about Palestine all the time.

[00:52:38] It's really not. I wanna talk about. I wanna connect all the different ways we as individuals and as communities challenge the status quo, whether deliberately, knowingly, intentionally or not. And, just hope that people, through hearing those will get inspired to do that in their own lives, like whether professionally or personally.

[00:52:57] It's so important because I think without that, given all the sort of trends. With Ai, with automation, connection, with siloed, walled off identities on these platforms that previously were about democratization. Like I worry if we lose sight of that, what the next five years will be like. 

[00:53:19] Katie Bogen: I think one of the things that is so beautiful about the work that you do is this is the distinction between conscience and just what we understand colloquially as courage, like you making that decision in that interview was conscience over challenge. Was conscience over an easy binary. It was humanizing this person.

[00:53:40] It was inviting nuance into this space. It was meeting someone where they needed you to meet them. It was the gut check of a storyteller and someone who is aware of mental health being able to provide. A grounding resource for a human being who needed it. And I think the demands of this binarist approach to these conversations really shackles it.

[00:54:04] There's an emotional violence to it, and you had a decision to make in that moment of, am I emotionally violent to this person who is clearly in a low space and needs to be reminded of a shared humanity and given comradery. Or do I cater to the politic of challenge as though that is really what purity is in this movement, and I just so appreciate that you made like an instinct derived choice.

[00:54:30] I don't know, I'm just hearing you talk about, that was really beautiful. Thank you.

[00:54:35] Ahmed Eldin: You know what? One thing that I really appreciate you sharing that as well, because after the interview, the guy who was filming it was with iHeartRadio. I was there for a workshop and it's just, it was a serendipitous thing where it worked out that me and Motaz would do this thing and it was scheduled and afterwards, the guy who was recording it, who I just met, turned to me, he's like, wow.

[00:54:53] And he knew nothing about Palestine and Israel, believe it or not, he had just, you know, come from, I mean, nothing, meaning nothing beyond, you know? And he was like, that was so human. And it, it seems silly and cheesy, but when he came, he was like, that was such a human interview. He was like, that was really great, man.

[00:55:11] And this guy, like, know, watches.

[00:55:13] And to that was an affirmation in part some of what you were saying, Katie, that like, you know, for me Motaz's' courage that was being hailed and that was being paraded after he got out of Gaza, for better or worse, I was innately like worried for him, but his courage during the genocide, even since then is really not just journalistic right to me it was really spiritual and the singing, I started with that actually because I remember throughout the whole journey there was this one story he had put up where he was singing with his friend and there was like a cat and they were just getting their things together and that was such a human moment to me.

[00:55:56] It cut through everything and it for me as an individual that was so powerful and so I was like, how can I, not replicate this, but harness that because he documented life as much as he documented death. I mean, and that kind of bearing witness deserves a platform, but much more importantly deserves protection.

[00:56:21] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. That to me is exactly what we need more of, especially for Palestine and the whole movement. And I saw you, you play your own What Brings You Joy game there in the beginning when you sang and you got to know each other, and I had never known any of the things that I found out about Motaz that you held space for in the interview.

[00:56:47] And of course, I mean you talked all about the movement and everything, but that where you captured that humanity and what you were trying to protect there was really beautiful. So thank you for that. Would you give us a spoiler on an upcoming exciting guest?

[00:57:01] Ahmed Eldin: Oh, a spoiler. Yeah, you know, I'll be honest, I was gonna do it weekly and then for several reasons I thought biweekly might be better, because really I wanna focus on the quality of conversation rather than like trying to churn out again. Also, what you were saying now that ADHD is in full swing, you know, for me it's also about like I wish I created content with the awareness or intention to capitalize financially off of it. Because I say I wish, because like, I think that's what most people seem to, I don't know, the people who criticize me tend to always say I should do that more. But for me, like that really wasn't the aim with this podcast.

[00:57:45] It's really, you know, it's like when people say you should write a diary. You do it for yourself, and maybe your diary will make an incredible book.

[00:57:52] It becomes a best seller and like, impactful, that's great, but it shouldn't for me, it's really not the intention and that's why, you know, whether it's Motaz or one of the other guests, like, I have a line, a few lined up.

[00:58:06] I wanna do as many as I can in person. That's why it's a bit challenging. But let's just say there's a female director who I admire greatly who's coming up soon. 

[00:58:20] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Oooh. 

[00:58:21] Ahmed Eldin: And I think everyone will be really keen to-. I'm trying to find people who are well known, but also people whose own stories, you know, friends of ours, like I'm, this is what I think, you know, we have so many people in our lives who challenge the status quo. You could start with your mom, you could start with, I think finding that right balance of what it means to really challenge the status quo in so many different contexts for different individuals. Hopefully that'll make the podcast worthwhile. 

[00:58:50] But yeah, I answer you. I didn't give you a spoiler.

[00:58:52] Dr. Hani Chaabo: No you didn't. Good evasion there.

[00:58:55] Must be ADHD skill there.

[00:58:58] Ahmed Eldin: There's an author that's coming on. That's cool. Next, tomorrow, actually I'm recording one.

[00:59:02] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yay. 

[00:59:04] Katie Bogen: That's awesome.

[00:59:05] Ahmed Eldin: Yeah, there's a handful of some unassuming people who I think are, I was really happy to get to know, so hopefully.

[00:59:12] Dr. Hani Chaabo: So excited. 

[00:59:14] Katie Bogen: That's fantastic. I'm aware of time. We have, I think, one last question for you and then some heart shares. So we've talked a little bit about the challenges of navigating this conversation across fractures and across social geographies and in these different spaces you just mentioned, you know, really wanting to bring people to your podcast in person and having that shared space, humanizing experience with all of the challenges we've discussed so far, what makes you hopeful about the future of journalism, particularly journalism about Palestine.

[00:59:44] Ahmed Eldin: What makes me hopeful? I think there is a shift undeniably in terms of people being informed about Palestine. That inherently makes me hopeful. What also makes me hopeful is seeing the different ways people are resisting. Students who sleep in tents for justice make me hopeful. Queer refugees who still dance and, experience joy despite all the odds, whether in the states or anywhere else, make me hopeful.

[01:00:14] Journalists who keep going, independent outlets, people like yourselves, cultivating conversations that are, you know, constructive, you know, drop site news. Initiatives like that at a time like this as a journalist, make me hopeful. And I think the next generation, it's an obvious answer. Sometimes I worry about them because all my friends have kids and they're really, the way they are about devices is even more alarming than my own relationship with devices.

[01:00:43] But that aside, I don't know, hope springs eternal. But to me, if I'm honest, these days, it feels so elusive. And when I, you know, when I talk to people are informed and find ways to be optimistic, even if it's something as simple as like doing something, they love, connecting with someone that helps me stay hopeful.

[01:01:13] Palestinian, resisting like Hamada, you know, so many different people cooking the different ways in which people insist on existing. When they're really facing erasure. And that can be a physical thing, or even people within jobs. You know what I mean? Like, there's so many examples of that in my communities that keeps me hopeful.

[01:01:39] Yeah. And like I think, kids. The kids are all right-ish. The world's screwed, but the kids are alright.

[01:01:52] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yeah. Thank you for that. This brings us to our final question with you. What a profound conversation. I kind of don't want it to end, but here we are. So before we go, we'd love to hear your heart share. We ask our guests to share something that means a lot to them. It could be a code, poem, song, or a practice that helps you stay hopeful and grounded when things in the world feel complicated.

[01:02:18] Ahmed Eldin: Oof, I should have prepared better. When things in the world, you know, I'll just mention this briefly. I hope it's not, there was a encounter I had. So you know how in life you get depressed and that depression can be acute or chronic. And there was a period in my life when I was living in New York and I had sort of a hapless hopeless moment and some stranger reached out online at the time he was a stranger and invited me to tea. And I was like, this guy's pretty well known. He is an author. You know, I had been engaging with some of his content 'cause it had been helping me out. His writing, I should say. I don't know if you're familiar with Young Pueblo?

[01:03:07] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes, of course.

[01:03:08] Ahmed Eldin: Yeah. So he had that book Inward and Clarity and Connection and you know, there's people who are like, oh, you know, it's so simple and it's so short. I don't know why, you know, it's not so deep and like philosophical. It's kind of surface level. And sometimes for me, like with my malady, messy mind. I really appreciate a very accessible, very tangible reminder of what matters and what doesn't. And there's something I can share with you that I've always, since like he invited me to tea, we hung out, we talked, I learned about Ecuador this, that, and the other, and it was just a really momentous, and memorable connection.

[01:03:51] And what is the one I jotted down? It's from Inward. It's a truth that I think if I had mastered or become more comfortable with at an earlier time, it would've helped me, and it is short. It is before I could release the weight of my sadness and pain, I first had to honor its existence. And to me that is like a refrain that applies in my personal, political and professional life. And, you know, I have an instinct, like many human beings to try to escape my sadness and pain in many different ways.

[01:04:28] Whether it's about something as, you know, like, Palestine or something very personal between you and yourself and yeah, that, that kind of, I like what he helped me learn about.

[01:04:40] myself As a therapist on the call, I'm like, yes. 

[01:04:47] That's a good nugget to get out there.

[01:04:51] Katie Bogen: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with our listeners. Yes, absolutely.

[01:04:54] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes, thank you. And thank you for being so open about your own struggles with your mental health and, you know, depression and ADHD and you know, being somebody who practices psychiatry. I really appreciate you being that open with everybody.

[01:05:08] Ahmed Eldin: Look, this is the guy you asked about for What Brings Me Joy.

[01:05:09] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Hi!

[01:05:11] Katie Bogen: Hi, sweet baby.

[01:05:11] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Who is this? 

[01:05:12] Ahmed Eldin: Little Pablo. 

[01:05:15] Dr. Hani Chaabo: So cute.

[01:05:15] Ahmed Eldin: He is as cute and dumb as me. Joking. Yeah, no, but you know, I spent too long just because you mentioned the depression thing and speaking out. I spent too long thinking that it was like a source of shame, like that I didn't want, think of how I feel. And so then when you don't, when you avoid, like your old patterns just play out for you.

[01:05:36] And then it's like when you actually stop and think about that, you take a moment, as it were. It's funny, something as simple as that. For someone as fast-paced as me, it's such an- the most authentic thing I could do and I just was like not doing it for so long.

[01:05:54] Katie Bogen: You get to become agentic again- you get become in charge again.

[01:05:57] Ahmed Eldin: Exactly, and when you're not in charge, it's like. Who likes to not feel in charge? 

[01:06:06] Dr. Hani Chaabo: I guess my share is also about taking charge back on some level, I saw a, I'll make this quick, but I saw a post by Mel Robbins on her, Instagram page and I love that podcast and it was an interview with a gentleman and he was talking about how there's so much noise and dehumanization online and how people respond to us in ways that bring out the worst in us.

[01:06:32] And he said that a practice that he uses, which I wasn't very aware of myself doing that, but it's definitely something that I've done myself while navigating all the dehumanization in my comments and the attacks that come my way and all those things. He says that when you see a comment like that, you can simply respond by saying, that comment is below my standard for a response. I love that. I thought that was such a simple, you know, talking about simple things you can anchor to.

[01:07:02] Ahmed Eldin: This is gonna be very useful in my family. No, I'm joking.

[01:07:08] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Maybe on Piers Morgan that would be useful for you.

[01:07:12] And in my family. Of course. course.

[01:07:16] And so was one thing I felt like when we're talking about polarity and we're talking about dehumanization, whether it's coming at us or it's within our own space, there's so much agency and control we can take back When we decide that, you know what, I'm not gonna respond to that.

[01:07:32] That's below my standard for a response. Even if I don't say that out loud. I've chosen not to respond to so many comments online when I used to just get into it and wanna prove a point and.

[01:07:42] Ahmed Eldin: You gotta break the feeling that like something good that's gonna come out of all those asterisks.

[01:07:49] Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes. Yes. 

[01:07:52] Katie Bogen: Well, I will wrap up with my share and then bring us into our closing prayer. But, I really wanted to shout out Sim Kern and Hannah Moushabeck and Interlink Publishing, which is a Palestinian owned and run indie publishing house for getting Interlinks first New York Times bestseller in Sim's Genocide Bad, which Hannah invited them to write.

[01:08:14] It's a remarkable and really digestible read and I think Ahmed, given what you just said about sometimes simplicity really is something that we need just this frame. Genocide is bad. Genocide is always bad. Genocide will always be bad. This doesn't have to be the, you know, complicated discourse that we try to make it out to be, in order to, you know, uphold this propaganda.

[01:08:38] And I think Sim and Hannah's project has done something really phenomenal and digestible. So that, that's a shout out. Congratulations to Interlink for their New York Times bestseller. That is so, so cool. If you haven't ordered Genocide Bad, buy it. Keep it on the bestseller list for as long as possible.

[01:08:57] And Ahmed, thank you so much for your time, your bravery, your dedication to truth, the humanity you brought to this conversation, and for spending your precious hours with us. 

[01:09:07] Ahmed Eldin: Oh, so fun. I loved it. Thank you. 

[01:09:09] Katie Bogen: Oh, I'm so pleased. So, okay, we have our closing prayer. May all beings everywhere thrive in peace, dignity, and share in all our joys.

[01:09:20] Dr. Hani Chaabo: And may we see true peace in the Middle East for all in our lifetime. 

[01:09:27] Ahmed Eldin: Amen. 

[01:09:33] Katie Bogen: Hey, Super Humanizer, it's Katie Bogan here. Before you go, I have a quick ask. If today's conversation moved you, would you please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser. Both links are in the show notes and your reviews really help us to reach more people who need to hear these stories. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with a friend, a loved one, or anyone who you think would benefit from it.

[01:09:58] Your reviews and sharing help us inspire more humanity in our world. Thank you for being a friend of Super Humanizer. See you next episode.