Beyond the Drink with Celebrating 1 Year!

#018 - Delving into the journey and impact of a dedicated sober safe space, 'Howl at the Moon', highlighting its first anniversary and the community's role in supporting individuals in recovery. The hosts discuss the genesis of the idea, share personal stories, and address the significance of creating an inclusive environment for healing. Offering a variety of programs, this episode captures the essence of what it means to provide a platform for those in recovery to share their stories, find support, and explore different pathways to wellness. With insights into future plans and the importance of community backing, this conversation underscores the crucial role of sober spaces in fostering recovery and hope.

Transcript

I think that's fascinating because people can expect to show up here that, I don't know the answers. You might not know the answers or the way to direct someone. But they might meet someone here or read something on the wall or hear something, see something that, that might be like, okay, you know what, let's try that.

So they're tuning in and they're listening and they're loving it. And actually I had a couple more people approach me about wanting to share their stories too, which is incredible. So I think there's just going to be like a real influx of people who want to share their healing journeys, which is really exciting.

Because, like we alluded to early on when we started to record this podcast, like there's all kinds of different ways to recovery. And yeah, I just I'm really excited about some people sharing what works for them and what's helped them get out of that, that rat race of addiction. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And It's almost like everyone's individual secret, how they got out. 

That's it. 

And  our jobs to, to figure out what that is and give that to our listeners. Exactly. Because we all have our secret, which we already shared in our stories. But I think it's something beautiful happens when we have those discussions and we figure out.

 Their  timeline in life from an early age up until today and what You know, what prompted them to drink or use or whatever else they're addicted to. And then, how did they get out of it? Exactly. How are they staying out of it? 

That's it. How they're staying out of it.

That's key for sure. Some of 

them go back in and come back out. That happens 

for sure. Yeah. Certainly there's been a lot of people who've been in that cycle of relapse, and then maybe they finally succeed and that's incredible too. And, some people are still in that cycle of relapse, but man, it's beautiful when when we figure that out and get out of that rat race for good.

Hey, and I think some of our guests are going to share the way that they did that, and that's pretty cool. And I just I love the energy coming from the people who are contacting me about coming on the podcast. Like they, they're really excited about using this platform, which is exactly what we wanted when we launched this project was for people to get excited about getting on this platform and using it to.

To share their stories and 

they better have a thousand followers minimum. Exactly. 

Yeah, totally. Totally. Yup. 

No, it's just a, stat strategy to grow, but also hear other people's voices a hundred percent. 

Of getting our listener base to know us a little bit better and understand what we're up to and where we're coming from and why you're doing this. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. But I think we've come a really long way. Like it's hard to believe when I'm looking at it, that. That we've put out 16 episodes already, which is really cool. And for any of our listeners who maybe are just figuring out that this is happening now, you can hit up our our website, their rat race podcast.

com and all the episodes are listed there, so you can go back and get caught up and there's some really good content that that I think we've put out. 

You might not always agree with what we've got to say, but I think it's some good candid conversation and it opens that dialogue. So 

for sure. Jody. Yeah. No. Hey, you mentioned that there's a few, several individuals interested in being a guest without giving specific names what are some of their backgrounds or what can we expect?

Yeah. I think I think one of the women who expressed interest in coming on, she comes from a really remote community and some of the stuff that she wanted to talk about was struggling with an addiction in a remote community and what that looks like and how that is and how there aren't necessarily the resources in a small community like that to to help.

to help. And she's actually relocated here to Thunder Bay to work through her addiction and she's doing really well. And she approached me and said, Jody, if you're interested, I'd like to share some of my story and I think it's going to be great. We've got that interview to to look forward to.

Yeah. And there have been some others who just who I knew personally who were living in act when they were living in active addiction I knew them and they've since recovered, which is awesome. I always love to see that and they've approached me about coming on too. So it's interesting for me because like I knew them when they were in that really dark place.

Same. And I've seen that transition into the light and out of the rat race. And now I see them in full on recovery mode. So I've got a bit of an insight already personally to their story because while I was their bartender, while they were using, and and now they're here coming to howl at the moon and using some of our programs and really enjoying their recovery and their sobriety.

And now they want to share a little bit about about that journey too. So we've got some people that. That fall into that category as well coming up. 

Yeah that's amazing, Jody. And I have folks as well from all different backgrounds and I think just, one thing I really like about our upcoming guest audiences, they're not just from one part of the world, they're from, I should say all over our nation.

And there's going to be guests down the line that are going to be from abroad as well. So we already have listeners actually, we have a few listeners in Ireland, we have a listener in the Philippines we got several in the States all over Canada.

A lot of it has to do with where we've lived in the past and those that have access to our social networks. But I've seen a progression. Since we started Wow like December. Yeah episode 16 like you alluded to we're already there  It's surreal Like we just keep rocking these episodes every week and we just we keep putting them out there And I think it's only gonna  grow from here.

Like I'm fascinated about it. Yeah, totally. 

Totally. I'm with you, man it's amazing. 16 episodes. It blows my mind actually. And here we are again, recording again today. I always look forward to Sundays because it's a day when we do generally record and I'm excited about it. Yeah. And it's so cool.

Like I know you always like you're the stats guy. You look at where people are tuning in from and you share that information with me. And. I think it's really cool and fascinating too that we have listeners from all over the place. Like literally, we have some international listeners.

We have obviously lots of listeners from Northwestern Ontario, which is great. But yeah, listeners from from all over, which is super cool. So that's that's awesome. I'm pumped about that. 

Yeah, I can see One of us taking a trip to the Philippines and someone's wearing like your howl at the moon t shirt.

Can you imagine? How cool would that be right guy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just a logo to our podcast 

I'd be amazing, cuz like I think most cities could probably use a howl at the moon. It's You know, it's something that could really benefit a lot of communities. We've seen it benefit Thunder Bay for sure.

A lot of people are really happy that this project is here and certainly I'm happy that it's here. But yeah, you never know. Maybe there's room for growth. Uh, I'd certainly love to see more sober safe spaces pop up in, in communities all over the place. 

 I like that.

You brought that up today about more of these spaces and in other parts of the country. Other parts of the world. Just thinking Canada in general, just focusing on Canada. Would you say some communities might it might be easier to open up a venue like this? How let the moon versus other communities.

Do you know of communities out there that support this more? Versus others. I wanted to see if if you knew what else was out there that was similar to your establishment, 

Truthfully, I haven't done a whole lot of research on what else is out there now. I know like before I launched the project, I was looking into just seeing, what other sober bars existed in different places across Canada and even around the world.

We're not the only place like this, but but there aren't that many, surprisingly. And you think in like bigger cities, especially that there'd be venues like this, but typically there just aren't but there should be. And maybe we're, maybe we're going to set that trend and encourage others to open these kinds of spaces, cause.

There's no doubt they're needed, right? Like you look at any major city in this country or anywhere else for that matter. There's no shortage of bars, like dozens and dozens of bars per city, so, when we're looking at a safe, sober space outside of a typical coffee shop.

This is obviously different. Like it's got live entertainment and programming and culture and art. So that's what I'm talking about when I say safe, sober space. Sure, every town's got a Tim Hortons, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about a place where community comes together in recovery and builds friendships and relationships.

And anyway, yeah, there's not there's not really that much of it out there which to me is kinda shocking 'cause I think there's a real demand for it. We see it here. 



I know like last night, for example I was telling you before we started recording we had karaoke night here, like we do every Saturday night, and it was packed in here.

And sometimes when it's like that, I just like to stand back and look at the room and I think to myself these people are here and they're loving it. Like they're just really having a great time. And I'm thinking to myself, like they're all in recovery.  Where would they be if this place wasn't here, I don't know, maybe they'd be hanging out in somebody's kitchen or I don't know but it just, I guess what I'm getting at is that it just really hammers home.

The fact that. The space and spaces like this are really important because people are social and they need to be social even in recovery. Actually, not just even in recovery, but especially in recovery. It's important for them to be social because you and I both know that relapses happen a lot of times when people get bored, and lonely, right?

They end up back in places where they shouldn't be, whether it's trap houses, bars, whatever, right? But Having a spot where they can come and know that they're safe and they're not going to be triggered and  where they're even going to have access to resources and encouragement that they might even need, maybe they're having a bit of a rough day and they want to go somewhere and they go to a place like this.

It's it's so important. So  I don't know about, How many communities have something like this, but not too many, not enough. And hopefully maybe we're like the pioneers here in a way. And we're setting that precedent for other communities to follow suit and hop on board and open up these safe spaces for the people in their own communities that are in recovery. 

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of good things that you just mentioned a lot. And I think there's obviously work that needs to be done when  we can't find them like we can't find them when I go to Winnipeg. I think I found one or two, and very board game environment. It was actually down the street from a provincially funded treatment facility.

So like things lined up in that sense. Hey but there are more numbers. There's more people, right? Like you might have the same percentage of folks that come in here and Thunder Bay  based on the population. And the same percentage might go into. And to Winnipeg based on their population and there's just more of them, now that I think about it growing up, like I always, we always had these spaces, but it wasn't like, like you said, a full on focus on like wellness and healing and community in a place where people can come and have those conversations.

, and I'll give you an example. There was like the friendship centers there, there was like community centers, but they weren't branded as a sober bar. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. So the way you're doing it is completely new to me. Even the one in Winnipeg, it's more like a trendier cafe, coffee establishment, a hot beverage establishment where there's a ton of board games and it's a bigger square footage and just on a busy corner.

It's it's almost like they're not operating as, Hey it's a sober cafe. Because I had to still go in there and someone had to tell me it's a sober cafe before I clued on. If that makes any sense. 

Yeah, it does. It does. We've intentionally branded this place as a dry bar and a place that people can come in recovery because I don't want it to be any secret what happens here.

We want people in recovery to know exactly what this spot is. And I think you're right. I think there are other sober spaces that exist, but they're not, Exclusively for people in recovery, like they're not geared  specifically for that. And I think that's what really sets health and moon apart and makes it different.

Like it really is for that. That's what it was created for. That's what it is. It's not just a sober space.  By accident. You know what I mean? Everything that happens here is done by design and it's specifically for people in recovery, which I think makes it really cool. And that's what I mean when there aren't too many projects like this out there.

There might be other sober spaces that are just sober by, I don't know not by accident, but they just happen to be sober spaces, but they're not really focused on bringing people in recovery together like this space is that is our, That's our focus. That's exactly why we built this place and open this place, which makes it unique.

And I don't think there's too many other spaces across the country that are like that. 

Yeah. The other ones I could think of are like safe injection sites that are in like Vancouver, East side, Vancouver. I know a bit about BC cause that's BC will always be home to me. And and so there's those as well.

I'm also curious now based on what we've just talked about  Even with the names like a community center, or let's just say an ethnic backgrounds, friendship center or community center. I was always, it's the same feeling I get when going into someone's a spiritual gathering place, it's there's that reluctancy to go in, like to go in like that fear.

And then it's you step back and you think about the name without reading anything about it and be like, you know what, that's probably for a certain group. It's for that group. And so I'm not that, maybe I'm not that group, so I can't go in there. 

Which isn't true, by the way. We know that but we know these spaces and what they're about.

Like you would be welcome there for sure. But I understand what you mean about people maybe not knowing that up front. So they might be reluctant to go there. 

Yeah. And so what is it about a sober cafe? Or, cause Starbucks is a sober cafe, Tim Hortons, like you mentioned, is a sober cafe or it's a cafe where they don't serve booze, I'm not saying people show up and they probably, and maybe that's it. Maybe because I do know during the times I used to drink, I used to love cafes, but the sole reason that I had like a Mickey on me, maybe, like I used to pretend like I was like, probably doing work on a laptop, but no, I'm just sitting there for about an hour.

I'm going to have my mix in my coffee, get my day cap or whatever you want to call it, and off I go. So right there,  here. It's environment that if you saw someone obviously drinking or someone shows up loaded. You might hear them out, but if it gets to a point where they're being disruptive out, they go for sure.

And I've done that myself, the one or two times I covered you in an evening, . So I was covering you that night and and then, and like I just remember that I had someone come in and it was like it was gotten to a point where they're being disruptive to the others around.

They're asking for a bunch of realistic, unrealistic demands. And so I had no choice, but I'm like, look, I told the partner at the time there, and I'm like, you got to get them out of here. It worked, right? But at the same time, it's I guess if that happened that other cafes, they would call security or do that as well.

But it's one of the things that like, we don't tolerate it. If someone was sitting in the corner here, Or someone was shooting up in the washroom or sitting in the corner here. Like we would notice that right away. And they'd be like, yeah, don't come back until you're ready. Kind of thing. 

Generally speaking, like we we get mostly the people who come here are already. At least somewhat rooted in their recovery. But we also do get people who are either brand new to recovery or who are still actively using, and we both know that when you're in active addiction, that it can be really difficult to to step away from that that addiction, even for a few hours sometimes.

I've had people come in here who are still using and they're they may be intoxicated, but there's a difference between coming in here and looking for support, encouragement and resources and coming in here. all lit up looking to cause ruckus and,  that's where I where I draw the line in the sand, right?

If people are coming in here and they're still using but they're looking for support and encouragement. Okay. Absolutely. You're welcome. And I let them stay. And I've had, I've even had people come up to me and say, Jody, that guy, I can smell booze on him.

Yeah. But he's interested in learning a little bit more about recovery. He's asking questions about about treatment. Resources, what can I do? And those people are welcome here. And, that recovery journey has to start somewhere, and I want to open that door to people who are interested in seriously entertaining recovery.

But I've also had people who, Don't realize that this is a dry bar and they come in off the street and they're just lit right and you can tell their Energy level is just different on a Friday Saturday. Yeah, you know then what's going on in here? They might look in and they might think oh, wow, there's disco ball and there's people in there singing karaoke That's a bar, right?

So they come in and they're lit and they're not interested in what we're doing here And they're actually causing a bit of a scene. They just bring different energy. You've seen that we've all been to busy bars, and people are just different when they're like that.

In that particular situation I, I don't want those people in here because it's important for me to protect my guests. And their sobriety and also to protect the reason that they come here. Like a lot of them are coming here to be safe and not be triggered. So when that kind of energy and people in that particular situation come in, I politely asked them to leave.

I explained to them what this place is and let them know that, maybe this is not what they're looking for and that there's a really cool, busy bar across the street. And that might be more up their alley. But. Again, like I, I think it's important to distinguish between that and someone who might come in off the street who has been drinking all day or who has been smoking crack cocaine all day.

But they're like, you know what? Like I don't want to live like this anymore. Is there anything that you guys can do for me? Can you point me in the right direction? I don't know where to go. I don't know who to turn to. And I heard about this place and I'm hoping maybe you can help me in that particular situation.

Those people are absolutely welcome here at Health of Moon. And as a matter of fact, I've even seen. Regulars who who will help to coach and guide and and point them in the right direction, which is amazing. And I think that's really beautiful and powerful too, because a lot of the people in here can relate to being in that boat at some point along their journey, and I think that they feel compassion for people when they come in here because they're like, wow, maybe this is that turning point moment for that particular person.

And maybe we can help, Set them set them up in the right direction and give them what they need to get started on that recovery journey.  

 We can all relate to times where we might have felt like that's oh, that might be our turning point That might be my turning point. There's countless people i've met along the way  Truth be told I wasn't ready for a lot of the first ones But there was one moment where it was like, yeah, okay.

i'm ready I hate calling it a light bulb moment. I hate calling it an aha moment, but I think we all have our moment. It's like this realization.  Like I better do something, but, or I don't know if life looks good next year or tomorrow or, the next month. And with the space like this, I see that.

I think that's fascinating because people can expect to show up here that, I don't know the answers. You might not know the answers or the way to direct someone. But they might meet someone here or read something on the wall or hear something, see something that, that might be like, okay, you know what, let's try that.

I've tried everything else. Nothing else has worked. Let's go ahead and try that part. Exactly. It's a place to not only be safe, but also seek direction. And guess what? I don't know what that direction is going to look like for that person, but they stick around long enough or they ask some questions, they start having conversations, micro conversations around tables, they'll hear something.

They will. And they might meet somebody who can really relate to what they're going through, because. The people who come here on a regular basis to health immune, all come from different backgrounds. Most of them are backgrounds of addiction, but we all have unique, different stories.

And exactly like you said, as people who are seeking out that recovery come in here and they start to ask questions and meet people, they might meet someone who has a similar story and they might really relate to that and they might be able to get some good direction and advice from those people, and that's what I really love about this space too, because we've got people, in here who are A couple of days sober.

And we've got people in here who are 20 years sober. And the beautiful thing is that  everybody who comes here, like they want everybody else to succeed on their journey. They want that for them. They're  here and the people who attend here are great resources, and a lot of them have.

Really good advice to give and a lot of them have a lot of learned and lived experience that might be helpful to others and they're happy to share that. And nobody's in here like preaching or shoving it down your throat, but they're approachable is what I'm saying, and they want you to succeed and they'll, they'll try and help you the best they can.

Like this whole community that shows up here at health, the moon and uses this space. That's what they want. They want others to to recover as well. And that's awesome. I think. Absolutely. 

Absolutely. Something you mentioned about sounding preaching or sometimes the messaging can be aggressive.

I can relate this to my own experience. I remember going to, let's just say AA meetings or wellness meetings and You're absolutely right that like majority of the folks in there, like they're there, they share their experience and it's up to the person listening. Take what you want. Use it. Exactly. Yeah.

There's also the smaller percentage which do sound preachy and aggressive and that can be In any organization, like it can be a spiritual event. It can be another community, a niche community of some sort.  It can be the street you're on, like wherever you're growing up.

And so I think what are your thoughts on that, that messaging that might turn people off when it comes to sobriety, staying sober or. Towards someone's healing journey because sometimes it could just be one thing that someone says that it's you know what? I'm not ready for this.

I'll try it again next month or next year, and I can relate to those things 

I Agree and I think one of the biggest things that I see with the turnoff or people feeling like they're being preached to is like Sometimes you get people who have tunnel vision when it comes to recovery and they think that there's only one way To do things and it's this way or no way.

And I disagree with that. And I think sometimes that can that message can be misconstrued and it can leave a real bad taste in people's mouths. There's plenty of different ways to get. To get sober and to stay sober. It's not just a one, one size fits all solution.

And I know sometimes certain people, something worked for them and, so they're excited about that and that's great to be excited about it, but that might not be what works for somebody else. And I think we need to be open minded and respectful of that. So I feel like sometimes those are the people that that ended up leaving a bad taste in people's mouths, and they're a little bit too rigid in what they're what they're saying.

Now having said that when I coach and counsel people, like I don't sugarcoat things for people, I certainly I tell them straight up what I think is going to work for them. But but I also have a really big toolbox, cause I, I recognize that, that. This may or may not work for this person, but this might work for this person, and that's why we offer like all kinds of different programming out of here too, because it's not there's not like a one size fits all solution, right?

I know there's a lot of people who love AA, for example, and that's great. AA works for a lot of people, but. Yeah. But you know what? Truthfully, I hear from some people that they don't like going to AA. Okay, no problem. That doesn't mean that you're stuck with an alcohol addiction and there's no way out.

There are other ways out, we've got a smart recovery program that we're launching here. We've got a well bried y program that a lot of people really resonate with, right? And There's different ways to recovery and people need to realize that and remember that sometimes, because I know sometimes people get really attached to a certain organization or a certain way of doing things and they think that it's this way or the highway and that's not true And I think we need to be mindful of that, And that's not to say that I won't refer people to different agencies Like I think Agencies like AA have been really helpful for a lot of people, but you know what?

It doesn't work for everybody. Not everybody's interested in that message or the way that they do things there. Okay, no problem. Let's look at other solutions that might work for you. You know what I mean? And I think that's important because I think if we just have tunnel vision and we say this is the only way to recovery some people are going to be like  that doesn't work for me.

So I might as well just keep using and I think that's the wrong way of going about it. Because I've seen different techniques work for different people and I try to be mindful of that. Like if something I suggest doesn't sit well with somebody, maybe they've had a bad experience there.

Okay have you tried this, or have you gone to this meeting or have you tried doing things this way? And I think we need to be open minded to that, but full circle to what you originally asked me. I think that's that's where I think some people are just a little bit too rigid.

They're like, Oh you don't think that works. Good luck to you. You're going to. You're not going to succeed. You're gonna be stuck with that addiction. And that's just not the case, right? But I think that's a really small percentage of people I think a lot more people are open minded to the fact that there are different ways to recovery And I think most people want people to to recover no matter what it is Whatever it is that works for you.

Perfect. If you can get yourself healed and get yourself healthy Get your life back on track. That's a good thing at the end of the day, you know That's a victory and success in my opinion. So Who cares what the route to that recovery is, it may look different for different people.  

 There's so much good stuff there.

And, you also reminded me of,  at a certain point in my life, I always thought like I have a hundred friends. And, you sober up it's been almost ten years since I went to rehab, and I sobered up, and, You realize, wait, there's only two or three out there. Really? Maybe one to three. I can call at any time of the day.

Like they'll pick up at 3am, and don't get me wrong. There's other people out there that I surround myself with, but I wouldn't say that they're friends outside of a certain organization, like work or a community or whatever else, right? Like we, we benefit each other, enhance each other mentally in one way, shape, or form through certain structures. 

Now, The three that I mentioned are anywhere in the country and we obviously exchange vocals and enhance each other because we're not even in the same space or elsewhere in the country, rehab was very similar. There was messaging coming from 80 different people in rehab, including like the instructors and the counselors.

And, now that I think about it, it was overwhelming, but. I really only narrowed it down to maybe  three folks that I still keep in touch with today that their messaging matched my personality. And when that happens, and I think it's back to what we were just talking about, about, we're going to hear things, we're going to hear things in this space, other spaces.

And, we really have to, Filter out what we can use and use day to day. That's going to enhance our lives. 

I agree with you. And 

it really comes down to the individual's personality in mind. Yeah, 

it does. It does. And I think you said something to the effect earlier of taking away what, what works and leaving the rest behind, and that's exactly it, right?

Take what works for you. Disregard the rest, but be open minded and be teachable at the same time, right? Because sometimes I think that when people are new to recovery, that they're a little bit reluctant to be teachable. Maybe they think that they already know or somebody's told them something and they've held onto that be open minded to the fact that there might be different things in different teachings that might work better for you, I also thought, while you were talking there, it made me think about Um, those few people that we have in our lives that that really resonate with us, and those are the real ones and I feel like when we're living in active addiction, a misconstrue what the real ones are because when we're using the real ones in our mind are the ones that enable us and that don't call us out on our, on our bullshit because They enable us and allow us to continue on in our addiction, right?

So the people who we think are real and have our backs, They're real and they have your back in the sense that they're you know, they're not gonna say hey get better They're gonna be like, hey, let's get fucked up tonight. You know that they're But and they're not going to call you out and say, listen there's a better life out there, are interested in maybe healing and getting your family back.

They're going to be like, let's go get fucked up. But that's not real. But in addiction, it might seem like it's real. Oh man, they got my back. They want to party with me. They want to hang out with me and, and they got me what we're using and they'll buy me drinks or they'll provide drugs for me.

Those that's real man, but it's not, in addiction it seems real, but that's not. And I think a lot of people in addiction, they just they think what is real. Um, it's not real, it's just people who enable them and make their addiction easier.

We've had groups of friends and especially when I was growing up like in BC that were sometimes we would surround Ourselves with certain people so we don't get called out on exactly. That's what I mean. 

That's exactly what I 

mean and I was thinking about this also the other day that like Sometimes  we got to be careful to be aware of that when we're picking our social circles because if I have if I'm in recovery or, sobriety, whatever we want to call it, I haven't drank for a long time.

Let's just say that. And  I want to make sure I have people in that circle. I'm smart enough to pick people in my circle that are going to call me out on my bullshit. It's easy to do the opposite and find people that are going to not, are going to be quiet. That's right. And.  Sometimes, and I've, I'm learning this now too, that it's not like the person doesn't have, that's not calling me out, doesn't have anything to offer.

It's sometimes not in that individual's personality to call me out. They have a very hard time with that conflict piece. So why would they even attempt it?  And that's when that whole comfort thing is are they really a true friend? Cause my true friends. Yeah. Some of them are like one will just call me out.

The other one is a bit like, you don't, the personality of conflict is minimized in society. He's very to himself, super successful, but he might have a hard time saying something to me out front. But him knowing my story, I'm pretty sure he would, he'd be like, yeah, we're not going to go do that.

Do you know?  I'm just if I were to put myself in a certain situation. And he was aware of it. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. He would call me out.

So I think it's all, the onus is on the individual. When someone sees clearly what works for them, it's going to be like, I want a well balanced, social circle where I know I'm going to have dudes support me, people call me out on my bullshit. That's just my take. Of course.

That's because you're healed right now. And that's why you feel that way, but I know how easy it is when we're addicted to not want to hear. Somebody say, Hey, like you should sober up like, Hey, you're like, you're hurting yourself when you're, when you're dumping 26 ounces of vodka down your throat every single day, like you don't want to hear that. 

You don't want to hear that. That's a buzzkill. Or man, you should, maybe you should stop hitting the pipe so hard today. Like you're really doing some damage, bro. You overdosed last week. I'm really concerned about you. You know that you don't want to hear that man when you're using that's a buzzkill.

So you surround yourself with people who are like, Hey, let's go party again. Let's get high again. Let's drink some more, because that's what you want to do. And when people are just on the same page as you and they want to do the same thing you don't need to take accountability for your addiction or the pain that you're causing yourself or your family or anybody else because, Hey man, your real one's an addiction and they got you and they want to party some more.

So it's easy to to get caught up in that. And I don't know I feel for people, but I like, it's It's so obvious when you're looking in from the outside and when you're sober, it's like man Like these people are so bad for you and you think that these are like, I guess yeah, that's my real one You know really your real one's gonna take you to a trap house and make sure that you're set up with crack cocaine for the Day, like that's real.

That's your real one, right? Come on man. Let's be serious here 

It's so true what you said surrounding ourselves with folks that are just gonna co sign our behaviors I, and I think we've both been there. It's I had a group of friends. All we did was just drink, and and then it's weird, but it also makes sense when, they all just disappear  when there's a moment of healing involved, it's okay, they're not there.

They don't want any part of that. I just,  yeah, the amount of, I'm just thinking about the money too. Like the amount of money I would have blown to date if I continued to drink, and hang out with these social circles that were co signing my behavior, man, I would be down.

It's not even that I don't even know. If we'd be sitting here right now. So it's it's just, I also find that money is well spent. On resources, but it's hard to see that when everyone comes from different backgrounds, in a sense that like their upbringing was different.

The access to certain resources was different growing up and sometimes, just going off to a treatment program whenever they want to isn't. Someone's, it's not an option. But it's crazy how once we go through some sort of like guidance or direction, or we hear things for certain people that change us, we can look at life a little different and start taking healthy behaviors, but it it bothers me that we have to.

Pay for it, and sometimes it's not really cheap. There are obviously government funded ones.  They're not always readily available, and if they are, it's, the messaging might not be the same. I don't know.  But I, I know that, I went to, if you got it, you got to get that Jody.

Okay. No 

worries. No worries. Just someone looking in, checking it out. I think. 

No worries. It's not a big deal. This is, it's not like day one. We're recording where we're like, Oh, okay. We got to stop the mic. I know how to use the editing software. Sometimes these are the best moments.

Sometimes just leaving this in there. It makes the audience like realize, the real people. 

Yeah. And we're recording at a real coffee shop, a real sober place. Yeah. And sometimes people come and take a look and pop their head in. 

I might even leave a little bit of that in there.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. There's people popping in

 okay. So I was talking  in rehab that we have to pay to hear this messaging, and so it's just, and that's the thing, like I hadn't I had some insurance that helped me out, but it was a big bill. It was a big bill. We're talking like 40, 000, right? 45 grand for not even just 28 days.

So let's say I had half of that covered and half of that was the best money I ever spent. Because if I hadn't spent that, people look at that bill and they're like, Oh my God, like rehab, like that shit, that stuff's free. And it doesn't matter what program you go to. First of all, it's the work you put in for sure, because you can get, you can make it work.

Now, look, I, by paying to go there, sometimes the environment is very, I don't want to say fake, it's just manipulated or it's set up for success. It's supposed to be set up for success. So you pay to go to a place, it might be in a rural area, there's minimal distractions, and you're it might be at a resort.

Okay. But there's a downside to that. Then you're thrown back into the jungle where you have to go back into the city and look at all your triggers. There's other programs that are covered. They're right in the heart of the city. Look out your window and you see someone shooting up. You know what I mean?

So  you're working with your triggers as you're going through the program. So there's different programs and some, are government funded or there's resource, there's money involved to go and the others, you got to come right out of your own pocket, so again, to me, it's the effort you put in, but like back to what I was saying, if I didn't have to pay almost 20 grand, let's say half that bill to go, like I don't think I would really have any, like my finances would probably be shit today. It's because I went through that, got that messaging, surrounded myself with a circle now that one can call me out on my bullshit, but also be there for me to feed things off of it.

And it goes the other way too. We wouldn't be a circle if we couldn't like if we didn't mentally enhance each other, on this journey.  

Definitely. Yeah. And obviously that was money well spent for you. So you're, you're. Into your healing journey right now and I mean consider how much You know, how much more you would have drank had you not gone, I'm like, it doesn't take that long to spend 20 grand on booze, a couple of years, maybe, sometimes a year, man, because 

it's the booze and then it's the extracurriculars.

Yeah, that's right. Exactly. So it's it's the food, right? Yeah. It's Oh, I'm a millionaire. I'm going to go down to Vegas, it's these trips, and then it's all the high risk stuff that surrounds it. That ends up costing a whole lot of money, which is like pretty much the All the income, and then you're like, okay, I still got my mortgage to pay, or I got rent to pay, there's other bills that 

aren't a priority.

It was an investment in your future and in your recovery, which is money well spent as far as I'm concerned. But don't we see it all the time? It's amazing. What we'll do in our addiction without even blinking an eye, but when it comes to our recovery, we're like, what, it costs how much, so like an example would be, when I needed a fix, um, like I would walk across the fucking city with one shoe on if I, if, if I knew that was gonna do it for me. Yeah. But now all of a sudden in recovery, it's oh man, that meetings like. 

What? It's on the other side of town. What? Oh man, bro. Really? But come on let's be serious, right? Like we'll do anything to feed our addiction. We should be willing to do anything to feed our recovery too. And when we do hustle that hard in our recovery, like I always say that's when the success happens, so I think like we have to really look at when we, make investments in a recovery, whether it's, taking trips across town or spending a little bit of money on things. That's an investment and it's money well spent, and we didn't blink an eye to spend money or spend time to, to get our fixes.

It shouldn't be any different in recovery.  

For sure. And with information accessible everywhere nowadays, it's not just, you got to go to a physical location in the world to get it anymore. It's all accessible. If we can access everything from our phones, we can access that right information too.

Do you know what I mean? And if we don't know then there's communities like this space right here, hell at the moon cafe, where people can come in, ask and have those questions or those conversations, so you got, you're getting close to your one year. You're getting closer to your one year, yeah it's insane.

I know. Yeah, it's what do you what do you have planned for the rest of rest of the month? What's going on? You got what, three weeks till  your one year? I know, it's amazing. 

Sometimes it seems surreal to me that we're that we're creeping up on that one year anniversary. It just it like blew by so fast.

And I'm, so much has happened in the years since we opened our doors. Like it was March 31st, 2023. That was our first day that we opened up to the public and we're 2024. Yeah, like sometimes honestly, like I, I'm just so busy. Busy doing all kinds of different things when it comes to this project that time just flies.

And when I do take a moment to stand back and look at where we're at and that we're creeping up on that one year anniversary, it almost seems surreal sometimes. Easy to think holy shit. Like we're still here. We did it. We're not out of the woods yet.

There's still a lot of work to do, but it's amazing. How many amazing things have happened in the last year here at the space and how much support has come rolling in and and how this project has grown and podcast and all this amazing stuff that just keeps happening. So yeah, we're creeping up on that one year anniversary and we got to have a celebration of some sort, it has to happen.

 I heard just, I think it was last night. I heard the ladies older lady came in and she was super excited about what's going on in the space. You're talking to her about how you've been open for X amount of months, almost a year. And she handed you like a 1, 000 donation just out of nowhere.

That's phenomenal that there's people out there, like that's music to my ears, that people are super supportive and believing in this structure that you have here at Howl at the Moon, Jody. 

It's amazing. Like the support just keeps pouring on in. I think we talked a little bit about some of the support that that we've been getting in a recent episode, but you Sandy Lake First Nation just stepped up as our first community sponsor, which is amazing.

We've been really looking to get community support, especially from some of the some of the communities north of Thunder Bay, because there's a lot of off reserve members who who use this space and benefit from this space. And we've been advocating chiefs and councils to, to get involved and sponsor this space and help us to keep the doors open because there are real bills and real costs involved with keeping this space open.

And there's rent and all kinds of bills and but we we, yeah, we secured our first sponsorship from Sandy Lake First Nation. Just amazing. Like they appreciate what we're doing here. They understand the value and what happens here. They understand that people from their community who live in Thunder Bay are benefiting from this space.

It's amazing. And they stepped up and sponsored this project. And I know pick Mobert is also going to do the same. They've they said that they're going to match that that contribution which is amazing. So that's two communities now who recognize the hard work that we're doing here and not just the hard work, but they recognize the importance of the space in Thunder Bay.

But like you just mentioned there, there's also been individuals who have who have stepped up recently to it's incredible. People just they understand that it's been a grind to keep the space open. They understand that I'm working almost a hundred hours a week to keep this space open.

They know that nobody's getting rich here. Matter of fact I barely took a paycheck in 2023. It's a passion project for me, but the reality is that we still do have, Overhead and we have bills, passion only takes you so far. You still got to pay the rent. I can't pay my landlord in passion.

So the fact that communities and individuals and agencies and organizations have stepped up to help keep this place going and this project alive makes it even more special in my opinion. Because it's been such a community group effort to do this. I couldn't do it on my own.

One hundred percent. I couldn't, I, there's just no way. So the fact that we've got Agencies and communities and individuals literally signing checks to help keep the doors open here is amazing. And it just goes to show that amazing things happen when community comes together to support important grassroots community initiatives.

And that's, what's happening here, and. It's not just people contributing cash wise, right? Like I don't have a lot of money for payroll here. It's just the reality of it, right? But I've got a small army of volunteers who just help keep this place running. People donating their skill set and helping in whatever way is possible because not everybody can sign a check over for a thousand bucks and I get that.

But you know what though? There are people who are amazing cleaners who come in here and. Clean my floors, clean my bathrooms. There are people who are amazing at hosting karaoke and they volunteer their time to do that. There's so many amazing musicians who have volunteered their time and services to come in and provide entertainment.

There's people who have volunteered their healing skills to come in and run circles and support groups for people. And again, that's what makes this project so special. Like it really truly is a community project. It's so many people coming together, pulling together for a common cause because they recognize how important this particular project is in a city like Thunder Bay.

And it is, it's way bigger than me. The space is helping a lot of people and yeah, it's awesome. Just so awesome that so many people are coming together to help make it work. Now Having said that, like we are going to celebrate we've got that one year anniversary coming up on, on March 31st of this month.

And we're going to have a party and there's going to be some cake and people are going to come in here and we're going to get excited about the fact that we're still here at a year. And I'm really excited to see what this next year brings because we're just getting started, and.

I'm confident because I know that the support is there. I know the community support is there. I'm confident that that there's a lot of people in this community who recognize how important the space is. And I'm confident that we're going to be able to keep it going. And I'm excited to see where this journey leads because there's so much more I want to do out of this space.

And a lot has happened in the first 12 months, but it just blew by. And let's see where we can take it in the next 12 months. We're going to grow it even more and we're going to offer more services and we're going to offer more programming and we're going to, we're just going to keep this thing going.

And I know that we can't save everybody. We're going to lose some people, we're losing people every day here in Thunder Bay. And I know we're going to lose more, but you know what, though, we're going to save a few of them. We're going to save a few of them. And that's what we're doing.

And we're going to keep doing that. And to me, that just drives me because you know what, some kids are going to get their parents back. Some moms are going to get their kids back because we're going to save a few of them. Easy. We already have. And we're going to keep doing that. I love 

that.

Yeah. 

Jody. I had one question before we close it down. Yeah. This morning I should say. There's people out there that want to start their own sober cafe  or a sober safe, sober space. I was going to ask you this one year in, but I thought I'll ask it to you today is if you have any messaging for those that want to start a safe, sober space, that's in Vancouver, Edmonton, Toronto, Calgary, or any, so any small, any community in the country or in the world is there a message that you have for them?

If anyone's thinking that. 

Yeah. The message is, don't expect to get rich doing this because you're not. And you better be prepared to work your ass off because you're going to be putting in long hours to do this. Like you better be passionate about this. You better want this. You better be doing it for the right reasons because it ain't going to make you rich.

As a matter of fact, it's going to be a grind. You're going to be working a lot of hours and you're not going to be making a whole lot of money. But. But if you can get past that and you can understand that you're making positive change in your community and that's what you really want, do it because communities need a safe, sober space like this.

But I think that my, my advice would be, don't don't think that that you can do it on your own either. There are going to be real financial challenges that are going to present themselves. That's been the biggest thing for us is just making sure that the rent gets paid. It's been a challenge, but we've been able to do it.

And I think that the way to do that is to make sure that you. Include community that you search out community supports and and get people to, to help you and see your vision and believe in your vision. And if you can get a team of people on board who believe that this is a, an important project then I think that you might find some success, it's important to, to look at how you measure that success too, because if you're looking for success in, in, in the form of dollar bills, this ain't the business for you to go do something else.

But if you're looking for success in, in, in the. In the way that it's going to feed your spirit, you're going to help some people you're going to give back to your community, then, yeah, maybe you can take a little bit of a risk and try and open up a safe, sober space for people because I think there's a lot of people in every single community in this country who would benefit from these kinds of spaces.

Jody always a pleasure sitting here with you on a Sunday. We're going to get you out of here because I know you've got a busy day ahead of you. But always a pleasure and thank you for joining me today. 

Thank you. Great conversation today. Thanks again. 

Absolutely. And we'll chat next week. You bet.

Okay. Bye now.