Unpacking Truths
Dive deep into God's word and unpack divine truths for today's life journey. In a world where everyone is seeking, join us as we guide you to find hope and power in God's timeless wisdom. If our discussions spark questions or ideas, reach out to us at UnpackingTruths@LOCChurch.com. Don't forget to Like, Share, and Subscribe, allowing us to continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives! Hosted by Pastor Kendall Koenig and Pastor Maureen O'Connor of Light of Christ Church in Algonquin, IL.
Unpacking Truths
Faith, Politics, and Humility: Balancing Beliefs and Societal Needs
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How should Christians navigate the contentious waters of politics and religion? Join us in an eye-opening episode of "Unpacking Truths" as Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo explore the deeply rooted scriptural values that underpin both Republican and Democratic ideologies. Discover how personal and communal responsibilities, often seen as opposing forces, are both central to Christian teachings. Drawing on biblical texts, historical figures, and John Yoder's concept of Jesus' kinship society, we challenge the notion that any one political party holds the monopoly on Christian values.
Navigating political conversations with humility and love becomes crucial during election seasons, as highlighted in our discussion. We emphasize balancing personal beliefs with societal needs and encourage curiosity over judgment to foster meaningful dialogue. Reflect on the appropriate settings for these intense discussions and the importance of identifying the core essentials of faith, as guided by the Holy Spirit. Prioritize what truly matters and let go of peripheral issues to ensure a grounded faith journey. Engage with us further by visiting our website, emailing your thoughts, and helping others grow by liking, sharing, or subscribing.
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Navigating Politics and Religion
Speaker 1Thank you for tuning in. Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where Pastor Kendall and I are going to do our best, by the grace of God, with the Holy Spirit, to unpack the truth of a topic that we all love politics and religion.
Speaker 2Oh Mo, Was this your brilliant idea.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know what I'm a glutton for punishment. What can I say?
Speaker 2Well, I think it is an important topic.
Speaker 1Absolutely.
Speaker 2And I mean in.
Speaker 1And a topic that often, as Christians in the church, we avoid.
Speaker 2Well or do really poorly at oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, so we're going to try and do a little better than poorly here today Just a smidge, but we'll see.
Speaker 1You'll be the judges of that Low expectations, so that we, you know, hopefully hit our goal.
Speaker 2I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Mo. Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into God's timeless truths for our lives today.
Speaker 1Grab your coffee. Open your hearts and your minds. Come take this journey with us, as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2I think there is a sense where you know people have often said you know in polite company you shouldn't talk about religion and politics, and I think they say that.
Speaker 1Or on a first date. Or on a first date, yeah, unless you don't like them, use that.
Speaker 2Yeah, that may be a strategy. Say that because they know there is so much passion involved in both of those topics that often people start engaging out of their passion and don't reflect on how it's coming off to others.
Speaker 1Right, or the fact that their face is getting really red and veins are popping out of the side of their head and they're spitting on you on accident because it's protruding from. I'm sorry, I was reliving a family moment.
Speaker 2So you know, Mo, I wanted I mean there's so many places I mean this is a topic you can do multiple, multiple episodes on, but we're not planning on that. We're shooting it in one, or getting ourselves shot in one, one or the other, but I think the one of the places that I want to start is just engaging, something that has frustrated me.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Is within the church world and I have foot in different camps within the church world. I have some folks to one side of the spectrum, one to the other, and they point and they say this is the Christian perspective to have. If you're really a Christ follower, here's how you should see things. Or people on the other side said if you're really a Christ follower, here's how you should see things. And where I wanted to start is just doing this a little bit deeper.
Speaker 2Look at that question, because for me, when I look at the two-party system here in the United States, with Democratic and Republican parties, what I see is that a core value that each one sort of springs out of a different sort of core value. That the Republican Party, in my perception of it, springs out of more of this core value of personal responsibility. My perception of it springs out of more of this core value of personal responsibility, individual responsibility that I need to take responsibility for my action, and that the Democratic Party more comes out of a communal responsibility that we need to be responsible for this wider community. And for me, both of those animating core values are scriptural.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think that's fair.
Speaker 2In that you know, joshua in the Old Testament says choose this day who you will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord, he said. I'm personally responsible for that choice. Right In 2 Thessalonians 3, paul says even while we were with you, we gave you this command those unwilling to work will not get to eat. Sort of personal responsibility. That is core in scripture. But so is communal responsibility from the sort of the democratic perspective. The Old Testament prophets again and again calling people to say it's not just about you, you have responsibility for the widow, the orphan and friends check it out the foreigner in your midst. That you have responsibility for that wider community. So for me to say that one is the only biblical or Christian response is inaccurate, because both animating core pieces are scriptural and that we have to live as Christians and as citizens of this country in the tension of both of those.
Speaker 1Absolutely, and I kind of want to touch on this. So when I was doing my research for this, I went back into a book by John Yoder, the Politics of Jesus, and it kind of speaks into this third option, and I just want to preface this by saying that John Yoder has done some unethical things that I absolutely do not agree with. However, I do think it's important for us to take certain things and take the good out of what some people have done and not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker 2Per se, right, like Martin, Luther, you might have written some good things, but done some bad things.
Speaker 1Yes, martin Luther, whom our Lutheranism comes out of right. He was accused of anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2Not accused of he did. He was yes.
Speaker 1And Jonathan Edward owned slaves. So there are these things that are considered evil and wrong and not in alignment with God's kingdom, and yet these are also people that really produce some things that I think help us understand God more and how to live in the world, and so I just want to preface that. But so John Yoder he speaks into the politics of Jesus, and one of the things he says is Jesus had a politic, that was a kinship society and so-.
Speaker 2Are you saying K I N G?
Speaker 1Kin like a family.
Speaker 1Oh K I N Kin Ship, okay, yeah, and so, so like, as there's Democrat, there's Republican, and yet we aren't to find our identity in those political parties, right, and so the values they have and hold, they are not something we live out of, every single piece of it, right? So even Republicans are like I agree with all these things, but not this within the Republican Party, or this idea or that idea, or vice versa. However, in Jesus' politic, right, this kinship, our identity, does come out of this. Our identity does come out of this politic. Who we are, how we treat one another, is to come out of these beliefs, and so it's all about the kingdom of God. And the kingdom of God that Jesus speaks into is all about this idea of the jubilee year, and the jubilee year was something that happened every, I think it was.
Speaker 1What is it? Every 50 years, right? And so that is when you forgive all debts, you know, you, you are to leave your land so that the poor can, you know, glean from it, and you are to, uh, release and set the slaves free that you have, like all these really gracious giving, feed the poor, care for others Uh, how's those, those? If you have extra, you know? And so it's just living out of this way, regardless of the cost. And so if it does come up against and butt up against the powers that be, then individually you do have a problem and you, you know, you become, you know, an issue with the powers that be, the government, the, the established authority, right, and that's okay, and you could lose your life. And so I thought that was really interesting. As you say, you know, here's this individualistic approach, here's this communal approach. And then also, when I hear Jesus would do this, jesus would do that, well, actually, jesus has a kingdom approach and it embodies little elements within our two parties, but it's even way bigger than that.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think there is so much in this topic, so many different directions we can go. I'm so glad you lifted that up because people have reflected on those different things and Jesus was sometimes asked to make choices about his interaction with the Roman government and he really took some nuanced approaches in the way he engaged that and he didn't just sort of go down with Rome or he said, well, I'll just do whatever they say, and so I see this inherent tension within Scripture. So one of the other things that we had talked about ahead of this is you had lifted up Romans 13, where Paul says we are to obey the government officials and there is this sense of saying that government is instituted by God and it is God's intention that we need structure, that we need someone to enforce codes, because sin is within us and if you let everything go, it would be like the.
Speaker 1Purge movies which I never watched. That freaks me out. I hope that never becomes a thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I think there is that, but I remember at seminary being lifted this fascinating point being lifted up is one of my professors lifted up the contrast between Romans 13 and Revelation 13. I don't know if you've ever heard this, but where Paul talks about the government being of God and instituted by God, in Revelations 13, it's talking about the government being the beast and being of evil and needs to be confronted, needs to be destroyed by God. And so I think, as human beings we live in this tension between Romans 13 and Revelation 13 that sometimes government needs to be just honored and respected, even if you don't fully agree, and then there are times where it needs to be resisted.
Speaker 1You know, and so that's something also in Yoder's book that you're speaking into it's an apocalyptic social imagery instead of a humanistic social imagery.
Speaker 2There's your big seminary word apocalyptic for today. What?
Speaker 1that means right? Is that, yes, the structure and institution set is something created by God for order and not anarchy, absolutely. Yet we're a broken humanity. Right, and the apocalyptic view is that there are principalities and powers and evils at work within these power structures through people. Right, and so that's where the battle comes. And so then, when you have these evils within institutions that are powerful, it can make huge damage. Right, and so that's what it's speaking into. Is this idea and understanding that it's bigger? Right, that it's bigger than us?
Speaker 2And so you know, no political party, no person is going to be able to save we need something bigger and I remember again any of the good ideas I've ever had I probably grabbed from someone else, you know, but a couple of elections ago I lifted up this phrase that I heard from someone else that sometimes we talk about elect. It sounds like people are talking that we're electing a savior.
Speaker 1Yeah, we're not electing a savior and then we're all disappointed when they don't well, exactly that we have a say.
Speaker 2I believe we have a savior in jesus christ. We are electing a short-term political leader for a certain time in office yeah that's it, and, and so we, sometimes we inflate it to the point where it is the end, all be all, and so then we lose rational perspective on it.
Speaker 1Well, and it's our misguided hope, right, oh?
Speaker 1once this person is there, then everything will straighten out, then these things that I've been worrying about and wondering about or filled with fear about are going to all fall in place. And then it doesn't ever happen like that, right. And then they get a little frustrated and they're like you know, this person didn't live up to my expectations and the truth is like they're never going to. And I think we so often forget what is all throughout scripture, and you know, matthew 6, 33, god's will takes precedence over everything and everyone. And we see in Daniel 4.34, no government can thwart God's will. And in Daniel 2.21, god, who sets up kings, also disposes them.
Speaker 1So, yes, and the truth that even if evil men or women are in political positions of power, right, and they mean it for evil. Even we've seen this with Hitler and different things, different people who've stepped in and really created a lot of chaos and hurt and pain within countries, and God will take it and make good out of it. Somehow God will work all things out for good, whether it's, I don't know, learning from that or different things, just open our eyes to a different way of being. That is our promise, that we have to trust that God's going to take this horrible evil or this thing that has happened and create good out of it, because he even did that with the cross and with this Roman empirical crucifixion punishment, he brought life out of it.
Speaker 2This is a topic that can just grow bigger and bigger.
Speaker 1I want to pull it back in a little bit, shrink it in.
Approaching Politics With Humility and Love
Speaker 2And one of the things that I wanted to lift up in this is also this reality for me as Christians that political decisions a lot of people make can be very self-centered that I will vote for this individual party because of how it will help me.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely, I'm an American.
Speaker 2Okay, but here's the—.
Speaker 1It's all about me.
Speaker 2But to me this is where our Christian perspective should come in. I shouldn't just be voting on what works best for Kendall, that at some level, as a Christian, I think we should be looking beyond our own personal interests and ask. Given my view of this country, Mo, let me finish here.
Speaker 1Do you know what my tax write-offs are going to cost you?
Speaker 2Before that, I should be looking and going between these two parties, between these two individuals. What is best needed for this moment? Are we needing more of a personal responsibility perspective, a communal responsibility, that I may vote one way or the other based on my reading of that, but you may read it differently and so. But it shouldn't just be about what is the best for Kendall, what do I think is best for the country? Now and here again, Christians can disagree on that, but that's what we have to do.
Speaker 1I think that's pretty wise to really step back and look at it like, okay, what do we need as a country right now?
Speaker 2And I just think we have to go beyond just the. I mean, we live so much of our lives out of self-interest but I just believe following Jesus calls me beyond that, to not just what works best for me, but what do I think is best for the writer, and then we use scripture and theology to justify our self-interest.
Speaker 1Whatever we, you betcha.
Speaker 2Yes, here's the other place. I wanted to dial this in a little bit is this whole thing of you know, and we're dropping this in the middle of an election season purposefully. You're welcome. Yes, yeah, that to me, one of the questions is when should you have political conversations and right before elections.
Speaker 1Yeah, I can't wait to get all those comments by the bots.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Very interesting things to say.
Speaker 2Yeah, we're wondering if this is going to have a warning on it from YouTube. But for me, in engaging this in conversation, I think we need to ask when, where and how. That? When should I have this conversation? You know, sometimes people have these political conversations as just hit and run. I can't believe you're going to vote like that and they yell something at someone and then they leave, oh and you know, and that's just sort of hit and run. It's not a conversation.
Speaker 2No you know, do it when you have time, do it when you can engage.
Speaker 1If you're going to get a family function.
Speaker 2Oh, at a family function please.
Speaker 1Around the.
Speaker 2Thanksgiving dinner. That's when you want to do it. No, I mean, ecclesiastes says for everything there is a time and for everything under the sun a season. For everything we have to be wise when we have these conversations. I also think, where we have these conversations, you know, having it in a public place where you're going to end up drawing a lot of other people in that can't engage. You know, where you have a political conversation matters.
Speaker 1Or not having it at Thanksgiving, because you know you want to be thankful for one another during that time. At that time you bet.
Speaker 2You know, I think putting up a yard sign is an appropriate place to say this is where this household stands. But I'm struck why I don't see more households where there's two different yard signs, because there are two different viewpoints in that household. But I also think people can make political statements or offer political perspective on Facebook. But the question becomes is how we do that.
Speaker 1So how would that be done?
Speaker 2well, Well, and this is where I think we need to do things, when we are making a statement of a viewpoint, a political viewpoint, and if I'm a Christian and I'm making a political statement, I think I need to A do it humbly, recognizing the fact that maybe I don't understand all the dynamics.
Speaker 1So should you begin by saying I do not understand all the dynamics of this, but….
Speaker 2Yeah, from my viewpoint, this is what I see. I think that humbleness, creating some sort of humbleness that is acknowledging a Christian perspective, to know that I'm seeing it from my viewpoint and I am a human being Sin's in me. It's not just out there, it's in me.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2So I am HO In my humble opinion. This is what I see. So I think some level of humbleness in our political statements is important. I agree, I'm trying to think Well again. I think humility, speaking the truth in love. I just keep coming back to Ephesians 4.15. Am I doing this statement out of arrogance or am I doing it out of love?
Speaker 1Because I want people to agree with me and they're not entitled to have a different opinion.
Speaker 2Let me just say if any of you think you're going to change anyone's opinion because of what you post on Facebook, you're wrong.
Speaker 1You won't.
Speaker 2You're not going to do that, that doesn't mean you shouldn't post something.
Speaker 1But don't let it enrage you when they disagree and then repost things.
Speaker 2You're not going to change people. So I mean, it's okay to state your political viewpoint, but state it humbly, speak it in love and don't think you're going to change anyone.
Speaker 1And I think it's important to, to do that self-reflection too. Like why is it important for me to share this right now on social media or at this family function or with my you know loved one? Like what? What is my purpose? What is my intention?
Speaker 2Yeah, right, yeah, I mean, it really goes to what's driving this. Why am I feeling compelled to do this? Because maybe it's not the right time, maybe it's not the right place, maybe it's not going to be helpful To ask ourselves those questions before we engage. That, I think, is just so important, absolutely. And here's another crazy idea what if we actually put things out as a question rather than as a judgment? I mean, we've been talking about this and really drawn to this idea of curiosity versus judgment.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And I've been hearing this in multiple places that if we come at things with curiosity, like, hey, I think you have this, you're in favor of this person, why?
Speaker 1is that.
Speaker 2And not like why in the hell are you believe in that? But saying why, why?
Speaker 1Help me understand.
Speaker 2Help me understand, because I don't understand that and I'm curious If we really came with a sense of curiosity.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think that could could help, could possibly.
Speaker 2And it acknowledges that maybe I don't see everything or that I just see things from my perspective.
Speaker 1Or I think we need to be careful to where we give it, getting our information from Right. So like everything has an agenda, a publishing company has an agenda Right. So like everything has an agenda, a publishing company has an agenda, a media company has an agenda, and so is it coming from a certain perspective already. Then things will be skewed in alignment with that perspective, and I think we have to look at things like that realistically as well.
Speaker 2Proverbs 18, 13,. Spouting off before listening to the facts is both shameful and foolish. Yes, and tragically, there's a lot of that that happens.
Speaker 1And where did you get your facts from? Just be careful. Yeah, and to double check that Online from this site.
Speaker 2You know, mo, there's a group that's been doing some work in this area and it's a group called the After Party, but I'm sorry to say it's not literally an after party. I'm all about the after party. I know you are, but this group is really about saying that for Christians, our discussions about politics maybe should be less about what than how. That how are we having the conversations is more reflective of if we're following Jesus.
Speaker 1Absolutely. See, that's what I keep going back to. It's like, whatever your opinions, whatever your views, wherever you have your facts from, we need to take that and work it back into the kingdom of God politic and go how does it fit in here and how doesn't it? And that becomes the big conversation that I think needs to be had among fellow brothers and sisters, right?
Speaker 2And, literally, how do we have the conversation? Are we having it with anger? Are we having it with arrogance? Are we having it with humility and listening and openness? That some of the how is maybe more important than the what.
Speaker 1Absolutely. I would love to hear from you guys listening and watching us now what has worked for you. How have you engaged in this topic of politics with those you love and care about in a way that was life-giving? Help us to unpack this truth of how to do this and do it well.
Identifying the Essentials of Faith
Speaker 2That's what we're trying to do is look to scripture and look to each other to see how God wants to guide us. We encourage you to like, share, subscribe to this podcast. If you think this is helpful, share it with someone else. Maybe that's another way to get a conversation going.
Speaker 1Or submit a different topic If you're like. Please don't talk about politics ever again. Submit a different topic and we will talk about the topic that you bring up. How cool is that.
Speaker 2Yeah, so thanks for tuning in and we'll look forward to seeing you next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2That's where I had to really take a step back and realize holy, it wasn't just the Holy Spirit inspiring Paul to write to the Christians in Galatia, it was also these early Christian leaders continuing to pray, continuing to study, to keep coming back and to say this is the true message of Jesus and this stuff, no, this is, you know, chaff. This is not the essential, and so I believe it was the Holy Spirit. Chaff. This is not the essential, and so I believe it was the Holy Spirit not just inspiring the writers, but inspiring those leaders to discern. This is what you really need. This is the essentials. You can let the other stuff go, maybe it'll help you, maybe not, but don't put your, don't risk your life on stuff that isn't the core.
Speaker 1Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking Truths. If anything that we discussed sparked any ideas or you have any questions, we would love for you to go to unpackingtruthscom, or you can also email us at unpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the podcast, because you doing that allows other people to connect to this content and grow with God as well.
Speaker 1Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved.
