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Bung Pod!
Based in Washington State, Bung Pod is a wine podcast fusing comedic and unfiltered, unapologetic conversation with the passion of wine and unruly hot takes. Hosted by Ian King and Jas Shattuck with interviews by special guests within the wine community. Whether you are ready to learn something new about wine and grow your knowledge, or you are just here to have a good time, this podcast is for you!
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#12 BONUS - Chris Horn - Liquid Legacies, Blind Tastings, and Wine Secrets
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Ever been stumped by the price tags on restaurant wine lists? Chris Horn from Purple Cafe pulls up a chair with me to tackle the truth behind those numbers and how blind wine tasting could be the key to unlocking the real value in a bottle. We take a hard look at the influence of terroir in wine marketing and how biases can blur our perceptions. Chris, our director of liquids, spills the beans on how price points sway decisions and the sting of wine markups at eateries. Plus, we get real about the dusty three-tier system that's still bottlenecking wine distribution.
Raise your glass to the artful dance of winemaking, where we explore the line between a flaw and a feature in our favorite vines. Is it a Brettanomyces bloom or just a mistake? And who knew Cindy Crawford's mole could teach us about complexity in wine? We chat about the trusty cork, its modern upgrades, and the eco-friendly wave of Stelvin caps and Tetra Paks challenging tradition. Imagine a wine bar where the box is king – we do just that, contemplating how these innovations might shake up the way we sip and serve wine.
Nostalgia's on the menu as we reminisce about our first forays into the world of wine and the tunes that scored those heady days. From Dale's Tavern jams to international wine adventures, we weave tales of music, wine, and the neighbors who turned us on to new flavors and sounds. Through stories of Germany's vineyards to Tuscany's rolling hills, we celebrate the journey of our palates and playlists. So, whether you're a wine buff or a music aficionado, there's a seat at the table for you in this episode full of heart, humor, and a splash of the unexpected.
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Importance of Blind Wine Tasting
Speaker 1Jabroni gang. What up, guys? Thank you so much. Thank you so much for supporting us. If you listen to the episode, we got Chris Horn here from Purple Cafe. He is the director of liquids. Really awesome, dude. We were just talking about terroir, if you listen to the original episode, and so I haven't prepped him on some questions I'm gonna ask him, but oh, great.
Speaker 2They're nothing crazy honestly so I've got nothing to hide.
Speaker 1Yeah, but we were talking about terroir earlier and and marketing yeah a lot of the wine marketing, but kind of going in that same vein. Where are you at with the importance of blind tastings?
Speaker 2Okay, I've done a lot of it, mm-hmm. I Think that, as a wine buyer, the only blind spot should be the price right, because I like that if you and so if I, when I'm tasting With people, if I've never tasted with them before, I'll warn them. Don't tell me how much this fucking costs.
Speaker 2Yeah that won't fucking buy it because it's always gonna be more expensive than it should be. But when you are tasting a wine and you You're, you're putting it in contests with all those other say, siras from the Columbia Valley, and you can get that price in your brain, go fuck, if this thing is less than 21 bucks, I'm gonna buy a bunch of it. Yeah and then if they say it's 28, you're like okay.
Speaker 2But if they say we got a deal, for we're trying to move some for 1399, you're like how much you got.
Speaker 1Yeah so that real quick, just for the people that are not familiar with how wine buying works. Um, they're seeing me, they're hearing all these low prices. Like I can buy a bottle.
Speaker 2The whole sale people. Okay, sorry to interrupt up. Yeah, there's nothing. People bitch about wine markups. How much did that fucking t-shirt you bought at Banana Republic for 35 bucks cost to be made like?
Speaker 1rights it's. That's a great point.
Speaker 2Yeah, or that cocktail that you just paid 18 bucks for how much do you think that?
Speaker 2Costs to be made or a fucking pint of beer. Yeah, like we're okay. But with wine, for some reason, people are always like I hate it when people in the fucking restaurant and they look in the wine list and they got the fucking wine searcher out and they're like, oh well, the retail on this is $28. You're charging me 56. Yeah, it's cuz we, we have to pay for this building and all the other things happening around you, and like you're not just putting you know bag and take it home and drinking.
Speaker 1Yes, also our 3-tier system that we have.
Speaker 2Yeah, which, yeah, don't get me started on that bullshit.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's a wine distribution people.
Speaker 2Yeah, we are still dealing with laws written shortly after prohibition, so yeah. That's bonkers. Anyway, what was the question again?
Speaker 1It was wine tasting oh.
Speaker 2I. It is important when you're learning wine, I think, to be able to perceive things, understand tenant, understand acid. Yeah, that's those, those things that we talk about. That our body. It's really important, especially as a person in a restaurant, to understand, because that's that's the things you're gonna deal with when you're pairing food and wine. There's the things that come to mind first. It also is great if you try and like figure out like what is typical, what, what does cornus tastes like?
Speaker 1right.
Speaker 2So I think it's valuable, but I also think that the spirit of it sometimes is a little less generous, right? I fucking hate it when someone's like hey, what's this? Oh Christ, I know it's grosses kvaks, riesling from 2009. I don't fucking whatever. Yeah, because the parlor trick of it is it's again. I've done the thing where you've been. You're in an academic situation, right? I almost just fucking bragged man. I almost turned in that douchebag saying there was this one time when I called it a 97 insignia, fuck that guy, I was almost that guy though, like because it feels fucking rad when you nail it.
Speaker 1Oh, it does, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2You feel like, but it happens one out of every 50 times, not that often, yeah and I think that, again, that that academic side of wine also cuts off. Like you know, there's some, there's some great expressions of wine that Tasted blind. I don't know if you really, if you really understanding the, the, the spirit behind it.
Speaker 1So yeah, my, my view on blind tasting has always been education, education, education. I'm here to learn and if I get it right, that means I am Absorbing this information correctly right. And I've been a part of a lot of blind tasting groups I've had. First it was just me and my friend and we watched the Psalm one Documentary and we were fresh into wine.
Speaker 1They're just in a tasting room, right. And then we're like, okay, this is what we're gonna do every week. We're gonna blind each other. You bring two bottles, I'll bring two bottles, and then we have to drink them all here. Just take home what you want and then drink it throughout the week, or whatever, or in a couple days, and then well, that's just fine.
Speaker 1That's fun and that's how we got started and then we started understanding so much more, just based on experience, because in Santa Barbara we had some wine shops had a lot of international wines and.
Speaker 1So it could be anything that bring that he brings to your table. And then I was at a spot called Jaffers wine cellars in Santa Barbara making wine there and then there was a All everyone there was green, like super green, and I was like, okay, cool, well, let me share this passion with you and maybe you'll learn something. And so I brought them to the tasting stuff and then they didn't know shit about wine and they're like I don't know, it tastes like cherries or whatever. And then you know, fast forward, six months later they're getting. They're hitting him like not vintage, because we would do the whole vintage region great variety thing, and which is it's a fun Standard to try and shoot for, it's a good target, but you know you're not gonna hit the bulls eye every time like it's gonna be one out of like, if you're really good, one every 10 bottles or something like that, yeah, and but those bottles that you nail are Really specific.
Speaker 2Yeah and and and touchstone bottles. Yes and that those are good to know.
Speaker 1Yeah, and sometimes because you know the people, because you've been with them right.
Speaker 2You know like oh yeah, you kind of know their budget is yeah.
Speaker 1And so like there's this one, there's this one time that they're blinding me on stuff. And then I was like, okay, this is. I said the vintage, I was wrong on it, but it's a matter. And I was like I think this is a you know old world in his own area seems to be a blend, but honestly I I could taste the fruitiness from the granage, I could taste the earth from the Morved, the pepper from the sarah, and so like I think this is a a wrong blend. So I'm gonna say it's jigandas, because definitely not gonna be shouting up to pop because he can't afford that.
Speaker 1And I was right, but at the same time that wasn't a full blind tasting. I knew the guy right.
Speaker 2I mean it was, it was brown-backed so when I do tasting competitions for magazines like sip magazine or the Great Northwest Invitational, we're judging wines blind and I think that that context is Important. But then again, when you're judging, you're coming with everything that you know about wine. Yeah, and sometimes you're on a panel with people that have different filters and Maybe your idea of quality is different than their idea of quality. So I mean, yeah, how do I get on the Jag? I think that it's, it's the. The. The headspace of tasting blind is Is good, but you don't have to be completely blind to be able to get into that headspace and experience and extrapolate the information out of the glass. Yeah, but yeah, there's, there's some people that are really good at it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean when I moved to Shalane like the tasting your bow is a part of. It was fun. It we'd bullshit a lot, talk shit to each other and it's fun and light-hearted, totally right, right. And when I did a Shalane thing, create a group there everyone was so fucking serious and Scared we were terrified.
Speaker 1Well, and I had some seasoned winemakers there that have never blind tasted before, and so there's some ego there. They're like, oh, I know wine, but like, oh shit, wine tasting oh shit, this is new. I have to be humble, in the setting which I haven't known nothing about something in a long time, and so that was an interesting experience. Coming from like the fun, lighthearted bullshit to the more, everyone was more serious and I was trying to poke fun at people to you know lighten it up a little bit, to lighten it up and then some people really took offense to it and just like was, and they just recoiled.
Speaker 1I was like, oh, okay, maybe my intentions here weren't clear.
Speaker 2There's so much intimidation in the world wine, though, like that's when the quarter masters first came to Seattle to do testing at the W Hotel back in February of 2002. There was a bunch of us that were going to go take the test.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Because we were wine people. Right, we were working at a restaurant and we were pulling corks for a living.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But a lot of people dropped out last thing because, like what, if you take that test and not passed, then then your, your, your bona fides are fucking gone. So I think blind tasting kind of feels like that too, like if I can't call a wine today. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
Speaker 1Yeah. And that's that has enough. I mean it has doesn't really have a lot to do with winemaking. I mean it has to do with your palate. Well, a winemaker's tasting palates completely different than a sommelier's tasting palates I do love tasting with winemakers, because they know flaws better than I do. Exactly.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's crazy and I'm like I've not. I can tell me what that is. I've not.
Speaker 1Yeah, I have tasted with Charlie. That makes he's a winemaker at Cardis here where we're recording right now. I didn't make that clear when we started the Patreon episode. And the co-owner of Cardis when I've. I taste with him very often and I learned something new every. He's so nerdy Like we just did an episode with him a couple episodes back and he is so curious and nerdy about everything having to do with making the wine. He can taste it and be like, um, yeah well, I just think they they did this too early or this too late, or maybe you know, whatever it is.
Speaker 1Yeah, and just like I don't know how you absolutely they do that.
Speaker 2There's a difference between driving a car and building a car.
Speaker 1Like people with cars.
The Science and Art of Winemaking
Speaker 2Yeah, we drive them. Yeah, it's a. Yeah, I don't hit that. There's so much science in in the world of wine, like that. Yeah, I think that some people, the people that don't understand the science of wine, don't oftentimes make great wine, right? Um?
Speaker 1yes, although, well, you can know the science and not have a palate, and then right, and you also make shitty wine because you don't know what faults are.
Speaker 2But then again I, uh, I think a little flaw isn't bad.
Speaker 1Right, that's an interesting conversation because there is the idea of, like some people think, like a little bit of Brett, add some complexity, it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 2Cindy Crawford's mole.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2That's without that mole. She's not Cindy Crawford.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2But she's beautiful because that mole, and so I have had arguments with people that are smarter than me.
Speaker 1That's a great example.
Speaker 2That, uh, if there's Brett in the wine, they're like that's a flaw, brett's a flaw. But I'm like, no, yeah, but it's a beautiful flaw, it's delightful.
Speaker 1Yeah, Well, that's like that's a wine maker. Yeah.
Speaker 2Or oxidation.
Speaker 1Saying that too.
Speaker 2Uh, I think oxidation is great in a wine, sometimes enough of it, like a Chardonnay that has a little bit of oxidation, has that little bit of nuttiness is so great with certain food applications Right. Because, that that nuttiness bridges to things really nicely.
Speaker 1Yeah, but it oxidation is an interesting one, because I do like the nuttiness, I know what you're saying. But then there's a line where it just becomes like bruised yeah, a lapel, really quick.
Speaker 2There definitely is a I I. I have some bottles in the inventory that I'm saving for the next time I teach flawed wines, because they're oxidized and they're not pleasurable anymore.
Speaker 1Totally.
Speaker 2Um I wish I could know.
Speaker 1I mean, everyone wishes us that drinks wine, I think. But like wish I knew when a wine was corked before I pulled the cork just for education purposes, cause there's so many times where, like I don't know what corked wine smells like, I'm like well, we usually have one at the restaurant. Yeah, well, cause we pull corks out of so many bottles Each night?
Speaker 2Yeah, and corks have gotten better, but it still allows you way to plug up the neck of a bottle Like I. I think it's the technology that preceded the cork was an oily rag shoved in with a thumb, so I don't know why we have a problem. And yes, cork farming is a thing and like there's people affected if we stop using cork, I get all that stuff.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2But it's, it's, it's, it's dumb.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I'd rather imagine, if, imagine, if the thing that we, uh, we sealed our beers with, uh, created faults once every hundred bottles of beer. Be like fuck this thing, let's, let's use something else. Yeah, but yeah, they've done a lot.
Speaker 1I mean cork technology has come so far.
Speaker 2Yeah, like a lot yeah.
Speaker 1Do you know about DM?
Speaker 2corks. Okay yeah.
Speaker 1I did um. Actually at the Shaland Carter's tasting room, DM came there, did a whole presentation. I was there for it.
Speaker 2But I just want to so why? But why are we going on all these great lengths when you can just put a fucking Stelvin on that or a goddamn bottle cap or a tetrapacker whatever we put wine in it's. It's part of that, that aspirational fine wine marketing thing. It's like if it's not in a 750 bottle with uh, with a cork in it, I can't charge that much.
Speaker 1Yeah, but you're like well, I've had some great um leader bottles from Italy with a cork like with a screw cap on it. Yeah, no, it's you know that are red wines. No.
Speaker 2Uh, uh. But again, because we have to sell wine, we have to adhere to the traditions so that we can have a larger audience. Cause I think maybe I might be a little bit of in being the minority as far as like being okay with a wine being in a fucking milk carton.
Speaker 1Well, that's another trend I was actually going to talk to you about on the original episode. We didn't have time, for it Is pouches with the tap on it. Yeah, because what Toddless Creek? They did a three liter box with a bag, and then the walls did the same thing, and then Amos Rome, they just they're coming out with one in April, and so the three liter rose.
Speaker 2I'm sure they'll sell the shit out of it.
Speaker 1That's four bottles.
Speaker 2Yeah, why not? You know, and the amount of energy it takes to transport those bottles, or sorry, that box versus those bottles.
Speaker 1Yeah, box or the pouch or whatever it is. It's, I think you're going to vote.
Speaker 2I think it's going to be really easy to get those into people's refrigerators and homes. Yeah. It's going to be hard to get those in the restaurants, though.
Speaker 1Yeah, Because. Well, is it though? No, because is there a?
Speaker 2I think that there's a legal thing. No, it has nothing to do with law. It has to do with people being like oh, you're pouring. You're charging me 12 bucks for that glass of wine You're pouring out of a box.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2Who the fuck are you guys Like that?
Speaker 1We keep the box in the fridge.
Speaker 2Yeah, yes, it was white, but still like when we buy cooking wine it's in a fucking box and if we leave it on the floor too long I get nervous because people are walking by seeing fucking box wine in the restaurant, so I got, yeah, yeah. Rule number one box wine goes right in the kitchen.
Speaker 2Don't let people see that shit, Because you know, I think that I I there's going to be somebody clever enough to open like a wine bar where it's just box wine and it's going to be the kind of wine bar where you're drinking out of maybe a red solo cup and everybody's got dogs and we're just hanging out Like, yeah, there's a. I could see the potential of that kind of wine bar where it feels more like a brewery.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, more of like a brewery style. I totally get that, or do you? Um, how do you feel about glassware and presentation? Is it important to you kind of going off the red solo cup thing? Yeah, because to me, like I don't know, maybe I'm a snob or crazy but like I love doing this shit, yeah you know, we, we do love. It's also a take of my net at this point. It's just something I do I swirl, whatever I'm drinking, even if it's like a glass of water.
Speaker 2I'm swirling that shit.
Speaker 1Yeah, I've swirled lots of beer.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, I think, uh. So at home I have a lot of different glassware. Uh, some of it is that plastic Govino, fucking Stanley shit.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Cause I just tossed in the washing machine and not think about it.
Speaker 1It's a little easier.
Speaker 2Um, I think that it kind of depends on the venue, yeah, like in a restaurant.
Speaker 1So it's more of a setting thing for you, yeah.
Speaker 2Really is Cause I, you know, we, we have different glassware in different restaurants. The Mcton restaurants, um, some of them don't have somewhere, but I think it's okay, Cause I'm I mean the burrito drinking a Baja Saviano Blanc. So I'm fine, drinking it out of that.
Speaker 1Right yeah.
Speaker 2Um, but I think that there maybe is a little too much, like I've done, the seminars where you taste different liquids out of different glassware and, yeah, there's a difference, but it's not enormous, and so we basically have three glasses a sparkling wine glass, which isn't a flute, it's more like a uh no, it's, it's more like a I think uh, I think the the term, I think it's called the Prosecco glass reedle makes it uh, but it it just has a wider mouth and allows you to get more airmatics.
Speaker 2And then we have burgundy glasses and we have just sort of classic Bordeaux style glasses.
Speaker 1And people on this podcast know how I feel about champagne foods.
Speaker 2The garbage.
Speaker 1I just don't like them.
Speaker 2Oh good, Like I. Just we're not going to fight today.
Speaker 1If you're going to pour me bubbles, put it in a white wine glass.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, don't, don't mess around.
Speaker 1Yeah. Um or any any glass.
Speaker 2Any glass will be fine, you know that's not a champagne flute. No, um, it's that's like. I feel like there's a leftover from the 80s.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean it depends, like, like you were saying earlier, your situation and the environment for sure. Like, if I'm having this champagne for the first time, I don't want it in a champagne flu, I want it in a white wine glass so I can taste everything. Single thing, yeah, we but if I've had this wine for a million times and we're cheersing to a wedding or like whatever, I don't give a shit about the glassware.
Speaker 2Well, if you most wedding wines, not giving me shit about that anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's a good point. Bad example, but uh, you know, if I've had this bottle for you know a long time.
Speaker 2Yeah, I've been not drinking for evaluation. But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think flutes are not evaluating the wine, then?
Speaker 1Think flute sales are down in general. Yeah, you think so.
Speaker 2Oh yeah that I don't see them much anymore.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I guess I don't go to these places, but yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm seeing more like the modern sleek, upright geometric kind of.
Speaker 2Again, there's so much fashion in wine and glassware, like it's a business, like if you made a glass that was perfect and never broke, you wouldn't have a business, so they make them just fragile enough to. I mean, if I had a tally of all the glassware broken over the last 35 years in restaurants, it would be quite a tally, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, I've broken a lot of shit. I feel like I feel like real owes me some money for all the destruction that I've caused.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, we. The amount of money we spend on glassware for the restaurants every year is pretty, pretty steep at the end.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2It's made of glass. Yeah, same time Get a break.
Speaker 1Speaking of which, my girlfriend knows me a lot of wine glasses. She always fucking breaks them. Well again, they're fragile. I need to have a spot where she can't bump into them or touch them Got it All right when I can just wash them and put them away. Yeah, a lot of the problems is I don't put them away the same time I. I leave them there for a couple of days, just upside down on the on the rack or whatever, and then she ends up hitting it or something like that.
Speaker 1I'm going to blame you for this.
Speaker 2It's all. It's all on you, man. It's it's all on me.
Speaker 1It's all on me, man. That's good relationship advice.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's always going to be you. It is the truth. Well, you're married, so that makes sense yeah, yeah, no it's, I can't wait till women just take over, right, yeah, we've been fucking it up for centuries. Totally, yeah, I just want to be a stay at home dad.
Speaker 1Yeah, that doesn't sound that bad.
Speaker 2Mine's, mine's in high school now, so I that should be sale you should be sale. Yeah, how old is?
Speaker 1uh, he's going to be 15 in May.
Speaker 2Oh, 15. Yeah, I was a real shithead in 15.
Speaker 1We looked out. Yeah, we, we got a good one. Oh good, yeah, Um he's he's just maybe, maybe he's smarter than me.
Speaker 2Maybe that's the thing. Yeah, did you take after his his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his?
Speaker 1his, his, his dad or his mom More.
Speaker 2He's got his mom's brains.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, from here up, it's all her, that's yeah.
Speaker 1That's a great response.
Memories, Music, Wine
Speaker 2It's the only response that checks out. It's the only response Exactly it sure is so I forgot to tell you this story. The first bottle wine I ever consumed was in Shalant it was. It was at the top of No-Seam Road by the golf course there, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was sitting on the hood of my dad's Caprice Classic. It was two-tone brown. You know, oh cool With my cousin Stacy, it was a bottle of San Michel Giverts from here that we took the car key and like shoved the cork inside the bottle and downed it.
Speaker 2So like Shalant's got definitely a place in my heart. We used to go there every Memorial Day and I love it. Week in August and after college there was a place called Dale's Tavern that me and some buddies used to roll up into, and we were in a band and Bartender Michael was an old musician. He wasn't old, but he was a musician.
Speaker 1Oh, okay, he had all the gear.
Speaker 2We used to go to Dale's and play Dale's, so yeah, I've had a lot of good times in Shalant over the years. Dale's where's it's gone now? It was on the right hand side up from I mean. It was Senior Frog still there.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2It's keep going down the street toward the Apple Cup. Uh-huh, it was on the right hand side. Yeah, okay, I don't know what's there now.
Speaker 1Cool, All you Shalant locals if you listen to this there you go.
Speaker 2Remember Dale's man, remember Dale's Michael the bartender, michael the bartender at Dale's yeah.
Speaker 1If you're still around. It was super fun. Yeah Well, that's so cool. What year was that?
Speaker 2That was the late 90s, early zeros. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2We weren't a very good band. We weren't great.
Speaker 1I mean, I was in a band as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, we were terrible and we didn't have a lot of material either.
Speaker 1Yeah, what kind of band Like? What was your influences for your band?
Speaker 2Well, you know, this was the 90s, uh-huh and, but we were acoustic. So I don't know if you, I don't know if you could really draw a lot of lines between. I mean, we really loved the uh, the Jarrah flies out from Alison Shane's like that kind of vibe. Yeah, uh, it was a little bit of that.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But also we. We had a little. Uh, I had a finger picking style too, so there's a little bluesy folks in there too, oh nice.
Speaker 1So you were actually kind of decent, I was okay, I was okay, I was okay. I was like oh, I'm so good, I'm so good, I'm so good, I'm just good, I'm just good. And I'm, I was kind of like oh, what a great musician. Not as a band, though, Like as a musician, I still play. It's a great way to relax.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah it's a, but I still play a little bit too.
Speaker 1I only play like country music or whatever, but um which is completely opposite of what I usually listen to.
Speaker 2Yeah, I grew up on country music. My dad was from the hills of West Virginia, so that was always in the car when I was in Alabama. Roll type. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I grew up on rapping hip hop mostly a lot of like underground Seattle rappers, blue scholars like Common. Market and of course, I got introduced to Tupac when I was 10 years old so, yeah, yeah, that's the only story you have to tell.
Speaker 1That's great. Yeah, that started me. And then, well, yeah, it was pretty awesome. But then I got in the country like in high school, because my next-door neighbor across street from me she used to burn me CDs and bring it over to my house, give me some country stuff that she would listen to. Introduce me to Brad Paisley you know, and so I was like okay, I can appreciate this.
Speaker 2Burning CDs man.
Speaker 1It was, yeah, giving your giving your computer aids?
Speaker 2yeah is awesome, yeah just for a few songs you know Lime Wire Napster, remember that shit.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, now Spotify yeah hey, he figured it out. Yeah, sean Parker, I think his name is Crid Napster was completely illegal.
Speaker 2Oh yeah.
Speaker 1But it was had a good run.
Speaker 2He got shut down and then he created Spotify and then sold it and he's probably sitting somewhere tropical right now enjoying life.
Speaker 1Probably hanging out in Palo Alto, all the other tech dudes. Yeah, it's an interesting part of the world Enjoying some wine. I mean so when you're on vacation. I guess it really depends on where you're going, but are you drinking wine or? Yeah or drinking other cocktails.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that a lot of our travel is to wine growing regions. This year we did Germany, alsace, switzerland, austria. We also spent some time in Tuscany, and but what I do when I'm there is I don't ask for anything that I've had before, like because I know that there's there's all sorts of wines everywhere in the wine growing world that I'll never get chance to have living here in Washington, so I just you mean like grape varieties, different blends or different producers?
Speaker 1Yeah, I've never heard of them before.
Speaker 2Yeah, and also, yeah, totally grape varieties as well. Yeah, it's just love going to a wine shop and when you find the right person and explain like, give me some shit that I can't get anywhere else, that's, that's what I love to do, yeah, and I don't. And then I don't fill my suitcase with either, because it just won't taste the same. Back here I think the experience. There's something about taking wine from its source. Sometimes it's just not the same.
Speaker 1Do you believe in like, like spiritual, like realm things when it comes to wine, and not just wine, but other things?
Speaker 2I think that I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have some magic.
Speaker 1Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2So here's a wine related magic story. I was doing a biodynamic seminar down in Napa Valley in like 2012.
Speaker 1A biodynamics seminar?
Speaker 2Yeah, it was a weekend like a biodynamic weekend, where they teach you how to do compost teas and all that stuff yeah and the. The winemaker Rudy was telling a story about when he first started at the winery and he did not believe in biodynamics. He thought it was fucking bullshit. Yeah, if you just read about it, yeah, it sounds a little bit Voodoo-y.
Speaker 1Like sure, the moon cycles when you're racking off full moon.
Speaker 2Yeah, you can't taste my wine today.
Speaker 1It's not a fruit day, like what, but yeah, that extreme with wine sales is kind of weird.
Speaker 2Yeah, he was. He was talking about the, the vineyard manager who'd been there for years. Just one day he says, oh, it's gonna be a really wet winter. And he's like what? He's like, yeah, look what the trees are doing, they're dropping all, all their pine cones, or sorry, they're not dropping their pine cones. And he's like, wow, that's weird. And then that was a really wet winter. And then, and then the next year he's like looking to see what the trees are doing.
Speaker 1And so there's his name was Rudy yeah from where.
Speaker 2I was Ellers winery. Back there's a state in Napa.
Speaker 1Yeah, oh shit, awesome, they listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2Okay, yeah, my wife was just down there doing the doing a tasting with her best friend Becky last oh, that's so cool. I love the wine, so not in they're not available right now in Washington, which is a shame.
Speaker 1But yeah, they invited me to come down there and do a podcast with their y-maker, so yeah, I don't think he's there anymore.
Speaker 2I think I gotta do it different, different crew. Yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been a decade plus. Okay, yeah, but this year, walking around walking the dog to the neighborhood, I noticed that like, oh, the trees are dumping all, all their seeds and that's because it was that fall was really dry, and so if a plant knows that it's only gonna get so much resources to get those seeds ripe, to propagate they'll, they'll do their own green harvesting right rid of everything yeah so it's it's kind of fasting, like there there's something I and I, you know, with the gun in my head.
Speaker 2Yeah, maybe it's not true, but I I'd rather there be some magic, right. I think, yeah, you know it's magical when you taste the wine that and you, you are transported that place that came from.
Speaker 1That's fucking magical yeah, my friend Jessica Gaska. She's a owner wine maker for own label called story of soil in Santa Barbara. She sources pretty much all of her fruit from the Santa Rita Hills area from biodynamic and organic and sustainable wineries. But she follows the biodynamic way of making wine and so she does follow the moon cycles. No, I am. I don't know what it is about it because I don't have enough information.
Speaker 1I don't have enough knowledge of biodynamics or the moon phases to actually talk about it with any sort of education, but she exemplifies it. Her wines are fucking phenomenal and there has to be something to it. I don't know. There have been some days.
Speaker 2So when I'm tasting a lot of wines in a day, some days I fucking don't. Nothing is worth what they're asking for. Like the prices are all wrong. But then there's some days where everything tastes fucking delicious and if you look at the Biodinamic Calendar and it says it's a fruit, they are like fuck.
Speaker 2Yep, yep well, maybe there's something to it, but I don't know. Well, fermentation is kind of magical. Yeah, we understand yeast consumes sugar and create, but the flavors that yeast create, that's magic. Like I don't understand that that different yeast produce different flavors really. So what?
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, it's interesting Because the way I learned was low intervention while I'm making, and so we did a lot of native ferments when I was learning and that was the first, second and third winery I worked for that they're doing native stuff not all native, but mostly native and then I come to an area that doesn't necessarily have that same mindset or culture involved and I think native is bullshit and it's like oh, I've never had this sort of friction before when talking about native ferments, because I don't know how.
Speaker 1I don't know how you feel about points or whatever, but when I was doing a native ferment with X, y and Z or Jaffers, we would regularly get like 99 points from Jabdonic, which is great. We were always searching for that 100 mark, but and that was a regular thing at least like three years in a row. And then I come to a different place where they're doing a lot more manipulation and not making the same quality and there's also a lot of different variables within that too, terroir is a thing like you know where you grow grapes, how you farm it, when you pick it, you know everything.
Speaker 1But at the same time, like well, these people have kind of archaic tools, like they haven't bought any new equipment in like 10 fucking years and they're making some kick-ass shit. And then you're wanting to buy like everything and you're not, and so it's like Better wine through technology sometimes is not true. Yeah, I don't think quality wine stems from technology. I don't think that's a thing, but it does help In certain cases, like you can't rely on technology to make the wine for you.
Speaker 2No, although there are some wineries that just make wine by recipe, so you know yes.
Speaker 1Those oscillating, oscillating sorting machines are crazy. Have you heard about those? So, basically, it's a new technology, well new within the last five years or so. So Oshonasy and Napa, they have this. They have two or three of these sorting machines because they're crazy. So you, there's like an iPad, essentially on the sorting machine, and then you tell it which grapes you want, Like these are the ones I want to keep Ones that look like this keep this.
Speaker 2So it's like an optical sorter on steroids.
Speaker 1Exactly, and it has a little laser, it goes through, has a little puff of air. Everything that's not up to that standard gets puffed out. It's like what the fuck? It's crazy. I mean it's so fucking expensive.
Speaker 2They're hell mountains. That's pretty good.
Speaker 1It's like buying a house for three houses, cause they have three of them.
Speaker 2I think it's great that we can live in a world where that technology can create a very specific experience where another wine maker will be like whole cluster. That's the way to make wine Right, like there's so many different avenues to go down.
Speaker 1Yeah, there's also stylistic yeah.
Speaker 2But I think that a lot of winemakers, if you ask them, what do you do today? Any wine maker that's been doing it for a couple decades, like, do you make wine the same way you did a decade ago? They'll be no, everything's different. Oh, yeah, it's. We're still learning, yeah. And I think that I mean when I think about the quality of wine in the Northwest over the last 20 years, like it's changed that fuck ton. Yeah, there's a lot of good fucking wine out there.
Speaker 1There is and I'm here for it. Yeah, it's quite a right. I love it. Does make it difficult. It's harder to make a list. Harder to make a list. It is harder Because you're like.
Speaker 2I want to add this I want to add this it is and because you can't buy everybody's wine.
Speaker 1Yeah, does it break your heart sometimes.
Speaker 2It does because there's some winemakers who are making great stuff. But the business of buying wine isn't just getting the things you want. It's part of its continuity, part of its price, part of its what does the restaurant need? Like, when I taste with people, I never tell them what I think, because it doesn't fucking matter what I think. It's what the restaurant needs. And so I try to take myself out of the equation as much as possible, because I can fall in love with the wine but it might not end up on the wine list.
Speaker 1Right, because it's not about you. It's about the customer and it's about the restaurant.
Speaker 2And I don't want to ever have people look at my wines and go, oh, that's definitely a Chris Warren wine list, because I don't want to have my hand in that in such a way that it becomes obvious. I think good wine list is like having every kind of music that you can think of in the same place and so that when somebody comes in and wants some country music, I've got a bottle of it and it's priced correctly and it sounds great.
Speaker 1Yeah, and you got a bottle of ace of spades sitting in the back in the fridge too.
Speaker 2For the people that want to spend money.
Speaker 1Spend money yeah nope. That's Jay-Z's label. Yeah, oh well, when they were.
Speaker 2Well, he's part owner. Yeah, Full owner. We've had a lot of celebs come in over the years, and so when he was in town with Beyonce, we made sure that we got some doose cognac.
Speaker 1There you go. Just in case they came in, just in case, because you don't want you got to have it, because what happens if Jay-Z asks for?
Speaker 2his cognac and you're like, oh, I don't have it.
Speaker 1You got to have it for a hove in the queen man, yeah.
Speaker 2Don't be a dick, but sadly no yeah.
Speaker 1I forgot to do this for the main episode, but can you plug? I'll put it in as well. Plug anything you need to plug or want to.
Speaker 2Oh, I mean, I think that I'm not really good at self-promotion.
Speaker 1OK, never have been. I'm not selling anything either. Maybe restaurant promotion.
Speaker 2I mean, people can come to a cafe in Seattle or Woodinville, but we have a variety of great restaurants. We have some great Mexican restaurants, we have a lovely sort of American Italian concept and then we have a really amazing sort of plant forward restaurant called Liv Bud that is some of the best food that we make and Chef Sarah is fierce and the wine that makes things it does skew toward the natural side of things.
Speaker 2Yeah, so it's just hard to find, because all the construction on the road in front of the place is making it hard to get there. It's crazy, but that will fade in time it will, which is good, but yeah, I think we're just going to keep trying, because in the restaurant business, if you don't keep evolving and keep trying, you will die. So I think, we've done a pretty good job.
Speaker 1You've got to be a chameleon. Yeah, got to adapt.
Speaker 2And yeah, for the thing that I said would never work. It's been 18 years, yeah. There, you go, it's never going to work.
Speaker 1I'm still here. I'm still here, here we go. It's working. It's working Well. Thank you, Chris, for coming on the podcast Appreciate it. Jabroni Gang. Thank you guys for your support. I hope you love this episode. Yeah, Thank you, man. Cheers Bye.
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