Bung Pod!
Based in Washington State, Bung Pod is a wine podcast fusing comedic and unfiltered, unapologetic conversation with the passion of wine and unruly hot takes. Hosted by Ian King and Jas Shattuck with interviews by special guests within the wine community. Whether you are ready to learn something new about wine and grow your knowledge, or you are just here to have a good time, this podcast is for you!
Bung Pod!
#24: ARMOUR WINES, Tyler Armour: Unveiling Carbonic Maceration & Innovating Winemaking
ARMOUR WINES:
Website: https://www.armourwines.com/
Wine Club: https://www.armourwines.com/contactus
Instagram: @armourwines
Ever wondered how sealing whole cluster grapes in a tank with CO2 can transform the winemaking process? Join us as we chat with Tyler Armour, the mastermind behind Armour Wines, who passionately unveils the secrets of carbonic maceration. Tyler shares his journey from cheese making to winemaking, detailing his innovative approach to creating vibrant, aromatic wines like his 2023 Carbo Barbo. Learn about the challenges of ripening Barbera grapes and why Tyler lovingly refers to his creations as "porch pounders."
Next, we dive into the business side of winemaking, exploring the power of wine clubs in fostering customer loyalty and providing consistent revenue. Tyler gives us an inside look at the structure of his six-bottle, biannual wine club and discusses potential growth opportunities. We also touch on distribution strategies, including partnerships with Venea Imports and renowned Seattle restaurants, and consider new avenues for expanding his unique wines' reach.
Finally, journey with us through Tyler's hands-on learning experiences, from making Cougar Gold cheese to studying at WSU. Discover his inspiration drawn from the fruit-forward Beaujolais style and his commitment to low-intervention wines. We wrap up with discussions on creative wine label designs, the benefits of clean production practices, and the joys of pop-up tastings. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the art and science of innovative winemaking.
Rate us on your podcast listening platform!
Instagram: @officialbungpod
TikTok: @officialbungpod
bung pod. Welcome back, wine wonder boy. And we got jazzy jay. Jazzy. What is a bum? The hole of the barrel is called a bung hole. Inside the bung hole is called a bum wine with mayhem. That's what it's about. All right, welcome back to the bung pod. It's your boy, ian king, aka wine wonder boy, and we have jazzy jay in the building as well. Hello everybody. Uh, whatever you're listening this, on whatever platform, uh, please rate us. Ideally, five stars would be nice. Um, just helps. Uh, people notice us and our podcasts get discovered and more people will listen to it. Oh, I, I love that sound. We have an awesome podcast episode for you today. I'm excited about this because I love his wines. We have Tyler Armour here, winemaker and owner of Armour Wines. You got it. Welcome, thank you. Thank you, thanks for doing this, man. Yeah, I know, I wanted to do this a long time ago and I'm so glad that we got it figured out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like it's been a few years. We've been trying to sit down and chat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like since I moved to Woodinville I was bummed, I was like man, I might not get a chance, it might not work, yeah it might not work, but I'm glad we got it to work. We're here in his facility right now. If you're listening to this, um, it's an awesome little facility.
Speaker 2:Uh, how many cases you make again uh, we're doing 1100 cases, 1100 and gosh, I don't know what.
Speaker 1:The square footage is small yeah, that's pretty tiny, but I feel like I see your wines like everywhere, so yeah, we're getting them out there. Yeah, it's awesome, it's a battle so what do we have here today?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, I popped the carbo barbo, the 2023 carbo barbo, so nice, full carbonic.
Speaker 2:Uh, barbera barbera nice it's been a it's been a fun one I love a good carbonic yeah, we, uh, we're all in on the carbonic um. Started with the gamay noir that we make, and then it was just like what else can I carbonic? And it's been a journey like um. I think the barbaro was next, and then we do a more vedra as well. That's full carbonic um. And then our red blend, le hush is half pinot, half syrah, and the pinot is full carbonic. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, so thatrah and the Pinot is full of carbonic.
Speaker 3:Ooh that's fun. Yeah, that's cool. So do you want to explain the carbonic process to our listeners?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's get right into carbonic. I love this.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm here for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, carbonic is like a winemaker's dream in my opinion, because you bring in the whole cluster grapes and put them in a tank or just leave them in the, you know, the harvest bin and basically seal the bin up and I I push a little bit of CO2 gas in just to lift out the oxygen, um, or the air, Um, but other than that, you just seal it up and let it chill for two weeks. So, like I said, winemakers dream, you bring it in and don't touch it for two weeks, Tuck it in the corner.
Speaker 3:Don't look at it. Don't look at it and do all your other stuff.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the carbonic process when you're putting that CO2 in, it gets all the oxygen out and in a no-oxygen environment it goes through a special process where it breaks down inside out, basically, and releases all these fun flavors and aromas.
Speaker 1:What a beautiful color, too, too, you have on here. Yeah, so we have a kind of like a violet. I would say like, yeah, like a violet color on here. Um, yeah, it's like red purple oh yeah, medium opacity for sure, but it's.
Speaker 1:it's so interesting because this wine drinks a lot lighter than it looks, because when you look at it you're like, okay, okay, there's going to be. You know it's going to be a medium-bodied wine with, you know, some tannins in the back, but this is very, very plush. You definitely get that carbonic pop that you get with like a Beaujolais right, and then Well, and I'm just a fan of Barberas in general.
Speaker 3:And you don't really see them a lot in this area. No, yeah and yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the Barbera is like our last ripening fruit of the year. Like every year it's stress inducing because it's like winter's coming and the Barbera is still hanging. So it tends to be a bigger wine just because it's hanging longer. But we have to let it hang because the acid's also screaming high.
Speaker 1:Yeah, longer, but we have to let it hang because the acid's also screaming high. Yeah, um, I'm getting like a watermelon grape jolly rancher.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got the watermelon too so nice yeah perfect for a hot summer day.
Speaker 1:You can crush this. I would crush this straight up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, baby, I refer to all of our wines as porch pounders there you go.
Speaker 1:Hey, I love that's the kind of uh era I'm in right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the porch pounders, yeah um, but yeah, I think, since it's uh, you know, it's a little bit riper coming off, like you do get like a little bit more of a plushness to it, but I think it does fun like crunchy tannins from the carbonic and the. Yeah, just like yeah, the pop of the carbonic on the nose is really fun.
Speaker 1:yeah, no, this is a very wine and I love that you make the crunchy style. Yes, awesome.
Speaker 3:What would your tasting notes be on it? You've given a little, but let's hear from the winemaker.
Speaker 2:This is newly bottled. It is released, but newly bottled. I haven't done my creative writing yet and came up with my tasting notes. But, um, yeah, I think a lot of what you guys are saying. Like the hard candy I like, I feel like that across the board. On the carbonics you get that like the jolly rancher, like the um, the grape and the watermelon, um, but then also there's some like herbaceousness to it and like earthiness. I think Barbera tends to have like that, just like meaty soil.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Italian dank cellar Totally yeah it does Totally.
Speaker 1:I mean which is fun?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love Barberas like Italian Barberas are beautiful, but I love like what you did with it is. You know it's epic, like I would prefer. I would drink this every single day, you know.
Speaker 3:So where do you get most of your grapes from? I see what it says, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So this Barbera's, uh, down the Wallach slope, um, I'd say we get most of our fruit off the Royal Slope, okay, but I mean just by a little Like we get from all around the state, really Okay. So basically, just find growers that we like to work with that are doing, you know, good growing that we don't have to, you know, worry about them too much. Yeah, yeah, so really like Walla, walla, the Yakima Valley, wallach Slope, royal Slope, ancient Lakes Our Morved comes from the Ancient Lakes.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And what other wines are you making besides Barbera?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so a few. So for our spring releases, which the Barbera is a spring release for us, have our Chersiez, uh, which is our Viognier. Okay, um, say it one more time. Yeah, exactly, chersiez, I was just talking with someone about this the other day. It's that's the green label right there. Um, we were talking about how a lot of people have problems pronouncing Viognier. Like you get the Voigner.
Speaker 3:We have one where I work in every single time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's very entertaining.
Speaker 2:And then, like I was joking, like I named the wine, like something even harder to pronounce than Viognier yeah. In retrospect. But yeah, Cherseas.
Speaker 3:And how'd you get that name?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I was reading some book about the history of the Rhone Valley and they used to call Viognier Cherseas. Oh, okay, In some little tiny village somewhere. Yeah, um, so it's a synonym. Um, that went out of date and we thought it'd be fun to put it on the wine bottle. But yeah, it's a mouthful.
Speaker 3:Yeah totally.
Speaker 1:That's cool, though.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, so Cherseyes, viognier, off the Royal Slope, and then we do a rosé like a field blend, rosé out of an East Lanache vineyard, and then again this is all spring release. The Carbo Barbo is a spring release, and then our Jetem Gamay Noir is a spring release as well. Cool, yes. And then fall releases we do. Let's see what do we do. We have the La Hush Red Blend, the only blend that we're currently doing Pinot Syrah, three different Syrahs and then a more Vedra.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's five. Yeah, vedras are fun too. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's been pretty consistent, like that lineup the last few years. We did do a Tempranillo this last year. That's in barrel currently oh fun.
Speaker 3:I like Tempranillos too. Yeah, those are always a good one, yeah, so why did you pick those particular grapes?
Speaker 2:Yes, we do all whole cluster. Well, I guess for the reds we do all whole cluster fermentation. So working with varieties, that works out and it makes sense, whole cluster fermentation. So working with varieties, that that works out, and it makes sense.
Speaker 1:um, so started with syrahs, um, just because it's pretty classic to have whole cluster syrahs, yeah, um did you ever so with doing only whole cluster when you're early on in the process of, I guess, when you were a little bit more green, I, I guess as a winemaker, or your label, did you ever run into the issue with your wines being too stemmy or too green?
Speaker 2:No, not that I'm aware of. Okay.
Speaker 1:So I've seen that a lot where, like people will you know, like a Syrah maybe, or I've seen it in Grenache as well, with people picking early and then also doing whole cluster I get like a lot of those kind of pure zini green.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I don't. We have one. We got Syrah from a new venue this last harvest and it is on the greener side, like probably the greenest that we've made, and I'm thinking that's probably like greenest that we've made. Yeah, and I'm thinking that's probably like the first time I've kind of ran into it, but I don't know. It's just um, I look a lot at the stems I guess, Um, I know people have said like, chew on the stems and see what that tastes like.
Speaker 1:Um, I don't chew on the stems but I look at the stems and try and not pick when they're ferociously green and tannin bombs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a balancing act to make sure things are right, but not too right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know Brandon Moss from Gramercy because they are known for picking really early and there are some of the first ones out there, usually especially in the red willow vineyard, and he was saying, like you don't cause they do a lot of whole cluster. And he was saying you don't really need the stems to be completely lignified in order to do a whole cluster. I think that is a misconception or an assumption that people make.
Speaker 2:If you just chew on the stems and then if they're a little sweet, then you can use them for their strong tannins. Maybe I need to start chewing on, I don't know yeah it sounds. It seems like you're doing a great job so far. So I don't know, yeah, no, it's uh, yeah, so picking varieties, kind of based off of that, um, you know stuff that we can do whole cluster um, and then varieties that I just like to drink too. I guess guess yeah.
Speaker 3:Like.
Speaker 2:Gamay Noir Like we drink a ton of Beaujolais at home.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I love it. We have to hang out, man. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:I love like slightly chilled like red wines. Yeah, yes, A lot of times people serve reds way too warm around here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, way too warm, especially then it's 110 out. Yeah, and I still want that red wine yeah, but not the same temperature as the outside world?
Speaker 1:yeah, so what is your wine club like, uh?
Speaker 2:like the release yeah, we've got a wine club. Um, we focus a lot on wholesale, like distribution and stuff, um, and we don't have a tasting room, so a wine club is, I think, maybe a little bit of a challenge, like we don't have a you know a spot for them to hang out, um. But we do release release parties in the spring and the fall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do special events here in your facility in the facility.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um. So it's a smaller wine club but we we try and promote it yeah.
Speaker 3:So do you promote it mostly like word of mouth and then they can sign up online, or is it?
Speaker 2:in person Mostly in person, okay, because I don't even think it's on the website. Okay, we're dropping the ball on that one. My wife's going to hear this and say I told you so. Um, yeah, we, uh, we should probably focus on wine club more, because it's great like we have. Um, it's easy money yeah, and I mean yeah loyal customers yeah, they're like great people, like they're all the people that really want to sit there and like hang out with you and drink your wine, and yeah, yeah um support.
Speaker 2:It's maybe like a 30 to 40 people in the club currently.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah no.
Speaker 3:And is it like a three bottle club, six bottle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, six bottle club.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:So twice a year, so in the spring, six bottles six bottles. So try and make it doable Um for everybody. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, I mean, if you want to like do a full case in the spring and the fall, I'll sign you up for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally have you ever um done like do you have a lot of wine club members on the West side and stuff where? You could do like West side pickups.
Speaker 2:Uh, we just have one member on the West side. Okay, Um, and we shipped to her Um.
Speaker 3:So, because you do wholesale, where can we find your wines?
Speaker 2:I should have had a cheat sheet in front of me here. Yeah, so over in Seattle we're with Venea Imports currently Okay, and they get the wine from like Bellingham down to Olympia on the west side, okay, awesome. And they're just doing the west side. For us we kind of handle eastern Washington. Yeah, for us we kind of handle eastern washington, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:but yeah, over on the west side, um, we're at quite a few of the sea creatures, restaurants, yeah, yeah, um, I'm trying to think of the names off the top of my head um, the one in the the dome. What is the? The dome? The bio dome, the um?
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, uh, yeah, I forgot yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh, wilmots goes there, we go. Yeah, um, but that doesn't. Yeah, it's in the sphere or something.
Speaker 1:Anyways, that's downtown, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um Atoma is a great restaurant. Um up in, I think, wallingford um great people and like they moved through a decent amount of our wine. There Are you guys?
Speaker 1:at Live Bud at all. Not that I'm aware of that's a heavy restaurant group and they're like a vegan vegetarian kind of restaurant. We probably eat this up, and they also are. Yeah, they have a lot of natural wine selections.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, I feel like you'd fit in really well there yeah, we I'll give the wine buyer a call there you go we had him on the podcast once.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah for purple chris horn okay, really awesome guy, yeah, yeah I've never met chris, but he's a great dude.
Speaker 1:The name he's a wine buyer for purple cafe and everyone, all the restaurants for heavy restaurant groups.
Speaker 2:So so yeah, yeah, yeah, we. I was telling you earlier that we just started working with Venea, so I kind of knew where the wines were a month or two ago, but now it's they're further and farther.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah so where did you like? How'd you get into the winemaking?
Speaker 2:I went to school for winemaking. I was down at WSU as well Go Cougs, yeah right go Cougs. Both my wife and I are Cougs. We were in Pullman and I was, I think, one of the last classes where they let you do the V&E program out of Pullman before they switched it all down to the Tri-Cities.
Speaker 3:Okay, gotcha and E program out of Pullman before they switched it all down to the Tri-Cities.
Speaker 2:Okay, gotcha Graduated in 2010 down there. Fun. Yeah, it was food science. Cool Down there. I guess I went from general studies and then food science because I started working at the creamery making the cougar gold cheese.
Speaker 3:Oh cool, I noticed the cougar gold over there. Yeah, the can?
Speaker 2:That's a dog water bowl, so exactly. Um, yeah, I made cheese and studied cheese making for a few years and then took were you wanting to be a cheese monger? Uh, it was fun I mean.
Speaker 2:I've like worked at a number of bakeries and like I always ferment stuff Like something's always fermented on the counter, and so cheese was like, yeah, ferment stuff like something's always fermented on the counter, yeah. And so cheese was like, yeah, this, this could be a career, um. And then took like an elective course in wine, um, and it was like, whoa, I need to switch.
Speaker 3:Like is this the one where they like let you drink in class? Yeah, oh yeah, oh god, that was such a good class. Yeah, it was like a no-brainer.
Speaker 2:I went like straight to the counselor or whatever. I was like I need to switch. Uh, and luckily it was an easy switch because food science.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you probably had most of the classes, yeah, um yeah, I was over warm milk, it was it was a time of my life. Yeah, I remember getting in that class and was just hyped, yep, um, and then you know, go to the Coug right after.
Speaker 1:Yep. Cause might as well if you're going to start early, keep going, Um I like Valhalla.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 80th night of Valhalla, it was a good time.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so studied at WSU, graduated in 2010. Um, I was assistant winemaker for Mary Sellers in Pullman at the time.
Speaker 3:Patrick's amazing. Yeah, I love both of them, so I worked with Banyans.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, yeah, Golf course out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was one of their catering managers the whole time I was at WSU and obviously we did a lot of events with Patrick and they are just phenomenal people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I learned a lot of good things from Patrick, including how to properly drink there you go, yes, yes, Important parts yes.
Speaker 1:I told you this story. I went to Pullman, for those of you. So we have listeners outside of Washington State that don't know what Pullman is. That is where Washington State University is. They're the rival to University of Washington Hus. That don't know what Pullman is? Um, that is where Washington state university is. They're the rival to uh, university of Washington Huskies. Uh, in Seattle. Um, it's on the Eastern side of the state, but I went there for the side of the state Um.
Speaker 1:I went there for a homecoming game. My girlfriend she's a Coug, she's like a legacy sorority uh coug over there, and so I went with her and I was a little sick, like I had a cold, just it's just like my sinuses were stuffed up, yeah, and I was like don't let that slow you down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was like well, I, I don't want to talk to a true coug yeah, yeah I'm not a true coug I went, uh, for viticulture online, um, but I've always been a, uh, a coug growing up, um in general, so I've always wrapped the gear and cheered for them, um. But anyways, I didn't want to drink beer because I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna be on my coors light game the whole day. You know, I can drink coors lights all day and I'm good, um, but I was like a little stuffed up and I was like, well, beer is gonna stuff me up more.
Speaker 2:I don't want that and I don't want to talk to people normally stuff you up no okay, um, not necessarily, but like when I'm sick I just, I just feel it a lot and I was like you know what clears my sinuses?
Speaker 1:it's ginger beer and whiskey, and so I'm gonna do whiskey gingers the whole time.
Speaker 1:But the thing is I was drinking them light, course lights and I just man, it was rough. We went to the game. I fell asleep in the second quarter and I woke back up like halfway through the second quarter, went to Valhalla, had some uh, some of their wings which is needed, definitely needed and then some course lights and I was like I am going to pass out, and so I was like trying to hobble my way back to where we're staying and it was rough.
Speaker 2:It was almost sums up like the six years or whatever that I was in Pullman.
Speaker 3:So yeah, there is times, especially when you like if you could go to the dunes prior to a game. You're just hammered before and you're just like, yeah, no, I'm great. And I think one time I tried to sneak like a fifth of fireball in. I'm like how stupid are you like? Oh yeah, that really was gonna sneak in classic yeah good times over there yeah but patrick, back to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great person, yeah so, yeah, I was at mary's cellar for quite a few years, which was great, I mean because a lot of of the other V&E kids, you know, didn't get that hands-on experience. Because, yeah, wsu is very like it's like books, winemaking, like a lot of the deep science behind winemaking, so it was good to have like the hands-on and practical side of it.
Speaker 3:I'm honestly surprised there's not at least one or two more wineries over there.
Speaker 2:I know that I'm aware of at least. I mean, there's a few I feel like. But yeah, I mean with how many like people come into town and like Mom's weekend.
Speaker 3:Well, I guess it's parents weekend now. But for those weekends that was like always a stop for us. Oh yeah, yeah For those weekends.
Speaker 2:That was always a stop for us.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then. So you went to Chelan after that.
Speaker 2:No, so right after WSU, I graduated in December of 2010.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:So January of 2011, went down to Australia.
Speaker 1:Oh fun, what part.
Speaker 2:Western Australia down in Margaret River. Oh cool yeah. Oh, that's fun, that's awesome. So epic beaches.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're down there for six months making wine and hanging out on the beach. Six months yeah, that's a while. Yeah, that's a long while. Yeah. Six-month visa we used every day of the six-month visa.
Speaker 1:I was supposed to go to Tasmania and make a Pinot Noir Chardonnay and some traditional method, you know, sparkling, and then COVID happened.
Speaker 2:Oh, bummer, yeah, you got to get down there if you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to go there for a harvest, but yeah, I definitely want to go down there at some point. But yeah, I love, I love that area.
Speaker 2:It's so cool. Yeah, I was at. It was at a bigger facility, go down there at some point. But yeah, I love um, I love that area. Yeah, it's so cool. Um, yeah, I was it, it was at a bigger facility. So I got to experience, like my tank farm, winemaking which, yeah, definitely helped steer how I want to make wine, a bit like not in a tank farm yeah so understandable I was gonna ask you so, coming from wazoo and their program, how did you get into making um, I'm gonna say low intervention?
Speaker 1:wines uh, because I don't like the natural term yeah, unless kind of natural yeah because, as a bad connotation, because there's so many natural wines out there with a bunch of wine faults and they're just gross and I usually call them natty wines. Yeah, when they're like that bunch of wine faults and they're just gross and I usually call them natty wines yeah when they're like that, and then low intervention when they're high quality, like yours, with no wine faults and taste beautiful.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know you. Uh, you was it. Walk the walk, you know awesome yeah so you know you can say a lot of things, but you show it and that's yeah, that's important and I love what you do. So how did you get into making this style of wine?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think, kind of going back to the tank farm and just other wineries I've worked for, just seeing how wine can be made with all of the junk that can be added and all the manipulation and things taken away and things added, and yeah, it's just not. It's like, wow, that's horrible, like I don't. If I make wine ever, I don't want to do that. Yeah, um, and I think with that and then just wines that I was tending to like be drinking were just kind of low intervention wines and I think just the common combination of those two is like yeah, how'd you start like drinking those styles of wines?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, that's a good question, um, working at. So, after australia went to woodenville, um, I worked a harvest for DiStefano Winery just a harvest gig. And then I was at a place called Barron's it was Barron's 5 when I started but then just became Barron's Lots of big cabs and stuff. There was a guy that worked there that had a great knowledge in wine and shared lots of good wines and I feel like they tended to lean towards. That's where I feel like I ran into Beaujolais for the first time.
Speaker 1:It was like oh man, Okay yeah.
Speaker 2:This is changing my life, yeah.
Speaker 3:So what would you? Because I feel like a lot of people, especially in Washington, really don't drink Beaujolais.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So at least in our region yes they definitely don't. Um, how would you explain it to someone that you know they see this on a menu?
Speaker 2:yeah like why they should pick that over whatever else yeah, well, I guess, yeah, like the style of beaujolais, at least in my mind, is like fruit forward, like yep, and that's like when, like when we're making wines like I want to make wines like the first thing you smell or taste is like the fruit, like I don't want it to be covered up with too much oak or um, um, yeah, I want it to be like bright and fresh and like those and again, like those crunchy tannins like, um, like this isn't like big syrupy wine that we're that I'm trying to make. So, um, yeah, yeah, just light and fresh, acid driven. Um, good with food is important.
Speaker 3:I think it's great with food.
Speaker 2:We, uh, do a lot of cooking at home and it's important that the wines can handle the food and the food, the wine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I think this goes really well with like. I mean a lot of people. Usually they tend to make more like fish or poultry at home a lot, and I feel like this really goes well with any of those. Like this could be a killer Thanksgiving wine. This goes well with like like this could be a killer thanksgiving wine. This goes well with like uh we go about barbecue.
Speaker 3:I mean, like just about to say, the summer barbecue it can really absolutely stand up to it, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this one's very refreshing, and just I mean this was definitely a oh sure, forget about man, let's go.
Speaker 3:This is definitely a great one to chill for, like that summer on the porch, yeah, enjoying an evening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a big fan of like with our rosé and white, like you know, down in the ice. But then a lot of our reds, like just sitting up on top of the ice is like perfect, because they get a little bit of that chill.
Speaker 1:But not too much. Yeah, yeah, you can still taste all the profiles in it, but it's a little chilled down.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You did a pop-up uh tasting at Norwood and Wenatchee.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do those somewhat frequently yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're just down the road. Essentially, yeah.
Speaker 2:Kind of in town here yeah.
Speaker 1:When it across town, I guess across town, very small town, but yeah, across the small city of wenatchee. Um, I was really, I was trying really hard to be there for it. Yeah, um, I was there at, uh, seth kitsky's um because I went to his because, like we've never met in person and I just wanted to chat with him because we've been kind of dming here and there um back and forth for a few years and I was like, well, he's coming to wenatchee and I I was living in Chelan at the time, so I was like I'll come down for that and I was really trying hard to come to yours, but I was also working as a cellar master, yeah, and the day went long.
Speaker 3:And I was like super, super bummed because I was trying to make it down in time, but I couldn't.
Speaker 2:There will be more pop-ups.
Speaker 1:I'm glad, I'm glad and I'll be there for him Cause I haven't really tried a lot of your wines. I mean, I've had your Gamay cause they have Gamay at Sorrel on the list there, which is awesome. They do all Washington wines for their whole restaurant but I've never tried this one and I've. I've looked at your website a bunch of times. I'm like, okay, I'm going to see what they got.
Speaker 3:They had a wine club on that website.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh geez Gosh.
Speaker 1:At some point I'll figure out a way to sign up for it. Cause this is like my, my style of wine.
Speaker 2:So, uh, yeah, yeah, so the um, yeah, the Carbo Barbo has been a real fun one. I think people like just saying Carbo Barbo too.
Speaker 1:Carbo Barbo is a great name for this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was definitely like a dad joke sitting around the table Like Carbonic Barbera, Carbo Barbo. The kids laughed and I was like yes.
Speaker 3:Take it.
Speaker 1:We're doing that.
Speaker 2:Now we're, yeah, naming wines. Dad jokes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also love your aesthetic, like on your labels um I was gonna ask you about the design.
Speaker 3:Looks great the design. Yeah, I feel like there was a children influencer uh no, we, we paid uh a professional designer to help us do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh no, yeah, the children drawing drawings up around the winery. Yes, of the wine bottles which I'm sure we're gonna get called into school sometime when they're drawing wine or something. I'm sure we'll get in trouble for that down the road. Yeah, a friend of a friend that's a graphic designer for a brewery up in Canada, oh, okay cool.
Speaker 2:We worked with him and our Heliotrope Syrah, which it's not in this room, we can't see it. Um, our heliotrope Syrah, which it's not in this room, we can't see it. It's a pink label like pink and purple, cool, that was the first one, um, and we wanted, like a design that we could just kind of change the colors on and like evolve wine to wine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but like, even if, like, like on the Carbo Barbo, here it doesn't, but you still kind of you can recognize it's a logo that it's an armor wine. So yeah, and it's been fun like finding color combinations for the different wines and yeah, that's really fun and people are like constantly asking like what is it Like, what is the design? Because it's kind of like a bumpy rainbow, yeah.
Speaker 3:Maybe or like a flower kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think someone said a bumpy rainbow of. Yeah, so I think someone said a bumpy rainbow, and so we made our rosea I didn't notice the bumpy rainbow over there yeah, and then I just heard someone thought they saw this on the shelf and they thought it was a sheep okay okay yeah, I could see the sheep. I can see the wool yeah so apparently we got sheep wine or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Okay, yeah, yeah. So for the Helio. You took me through like a little tour before this episode and I saw the Helio was labeled on the sandstone jar. It is indeed, yeah. So take me through the process of why a sandstone jar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again, like all of our reds Thank you, all our reds, whole cluster and all neutral French oak. So again, just trying to make sure we're seeing fruit first, not covering it up with too much new oak and stuff.
Speaker 1:So you don't do any new French oak.
Speaker 2:We don't do any new oak at all. No, maybe eventually like very small amounts here and there. But it's expensive too, and we're a startup winery.
Speaker 1:so it is and I've never. I mean. I understand the reason, but when I was making wine and my, I was planning my own label at one point and I was like I'm not gonna use french oak like new oak for anything like there's no point because I don't like the you know aggressive clove vanilla flavor, usually, unless it needs it, with like a I don't know like a nebbiolo or like a, you know, like a big cab or something, but that's not something that I would make personally, um, and so I.
Speaker 1:it's funny because I did like a whole business plan and I had like all the great varieties lined up and a lot of them are similar to what you're doing. But, like um, it's really cool to see that because I've, you know, think that is missing a lot in Washington State, especially Because I was inspired by Sonoma and they're doing like Trousseau Noir, trousseau Gris and Gamay and a bunch of fun stuff.
Speaker 2:And in like vessels that aren't offering a bunch of oak flavor, exactly.
Speaker 1:More fresh style, and that's something that I think is beautiful and something I can drink every single day. I could probably drink this whole bottle by myself. To be honest, let's do it. That's something that I think is beautiful and something I can drink every single day. Like I could probably drink this whole bottle by myself. Yep, to be honest, let's do it. Let's do it.
Speaker 1:We're surrounded by walls and economics we can just keep going and like economics too. It's like, okay, I'm not paying like up to what 1500, yeah, a barrel for french new french oak, or up to like 900 a barrel for new French oak, or up to like $900 a barrel for new American. I might like I'll go to another winery, buy their used oak for like 80 bucks to a hundred bucks or something like that. And then it just economics and also my personal profile. You know my palate, it just this synced up. You know, I'm just like that just makes you know my palate. It just just synced up.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm just like that, just makes you know and I feel like, with the beaujolais style, like how you initially said, fruit forward and once you bring in that new french oak, you're just pulling that away yep, covering it up, yeah, you're getting those oaky flavors and yeah, I feel like it's not always necessary yeah, I want to see what the fruit can do.
Speaker 2:A small winery too, like all of our lots are very small. So like one barrel in, like a lot, is, you know, gonna end up being like 25 of the final volume, or yeah, it's not like if. If we were a bigger winery, yeah, you could maybe sneak in some new French oak. That wouldn't, you know, would be a lower percentage. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:We're good with the neutral oak for now. But, yeah, back to the sandstone tank, just looking for other vessels that offered that. You know, a storage vessel that's not imparting, you know, flavors and tannins and aromas. So yeah, um, yeah, and the sandstone's been fantastic, um is this your first vintage with it uh no, the uh previous vintage was the first.
Speaker 2:So we have um our viognier, so we ferment our viognier in there, um, and then pull it out after it's done fermenting and then age our heliotrope Syrah for 10 months. Fun, and it's just a portion of the final blend, so it ends up being like a third sandstone, third normal barrels and then a third punchins, so big barrels.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, yeah, yeah, big punchins. I didn't see a punchin back there, I just miss it. They're right here next to you.
Speaker 2:Oh, hey, look at that. What's up, guys Big?
Speaker 1:punch-ins.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sandstone. We were talking earlier how I think I like it better than concrete Concrete's kind of fussy. You have to be careful cleaning it and you have to coat the inside with the tar crystals, vassic, the inside with the tar crystals, yeah, um, yeah, and the sandstone's like it's a fired sandstone, so it's gone through a kiln and it's like pretty indestructible. Yeah, so, but it like, from what I've been told, like it breathes very similar to barrels, um, where concrete can be a bit tighter okay, I was wondering about.
Speaker 2:Clay is like a bit looser um, the sandstone is apparently right along the lines of the barrel.
Speaker 1:Oh, really yeah.
Speaker 2:I've heard that before Okay, cool, so it's my jam, basically, yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I think we'll probably get more for sure and maybe bigger ones. But, again, they're expensive.
Speaker 1:They are expensive.
Speaker 3:They are very expensive. So are you from the Wenatchee area originally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Born and raised in Wenatchee both my wife and I.
Speaker 3:Okay, wow, did you guys know each other before WSU?
Speaker 2:Yep High school.
Speaker 3:Aw, high school sweetheart. That's cute. I love that. That's adorable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, both went to WSU. She's international business and German.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, okay, look at that.
Speaker 2:That's fun, the business helps. Yeah, we're not using the German a whole lot currently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not making Rieslings. No, I know I might make a Riesling this year. Or Müller-Turgau, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would be fun. Well, and how often does she? Is she very?
Speaker 2:involved with the winemaking and everything. Uh, winemaking during harvest and bottling, yes, absolutely. Um, the rest of the year, she leaves it up to me. Um, yeah but, like she does a lot of the business side of it okay um, I would be lost without her on that Um which is it's kind of like our relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Me and Jasmine.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So she's like more like on the business side, and I'm I don't know, yeah, yeah. I'm more of the like the production production person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah, yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of things to do. Yeah, this isn't my job, which I at some point. That'd be cool. Yeah, we'll get there one day, baby step you know, just drink for a living and interview people. Doesn't sound like a bad day. It's pretty great. No, not at all. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I like talking about wine, so it's fun. You get to meet a really awesome community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so do you have any issues with like, because you do native fermentations un-fined, unfiltered, yep. Do you have any issues with native fermentations at all? Do you find anything getting stuck ever?
Speaker 2:Fortunately haven't had any like epic stucks. Yeah, um, that are 2022. Carbo barbo, we're drinking the 23 currently. Um, stopped like the very end, with just a little bit of sugar in it which, like if we opened to 22 right now, it would. It would taste sweeter, for sure. Yeah, um, but still like people were loving it like crazy.
Speaker 1:But no, I've been very fortunate that, yeah, so you've never had to like try and restart something? No, Because I wonder what the low intervention process would be to restart something Because I've restarted. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:One before and it was a pain in the ass.
Speaker 2:With commercial yeast or no?
Speaker 1:Yes, with commercial yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I've done that before for other wineries too, and it's a process, but you're just adding so much shit to the wine to clean it up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not even wine, at that point almost.
Speaker 1:I mean it's wine, Not that you really have to categorically.
Speaker 3:Not that you have to put anything really on these labels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no labels.
Speaker 1:but yeah, no, I've been lucky that if galloping can say their wine, then that's wine too. It's great. Um, they don't listen to the podcast, which I actually don't even know, but they might um, yeah, what were we saying?
Speaker 2:oh, just restarting, like any stuck fermentation, oh yeah, so just, yeah, going back to like finding like growers that I really like working with, that do a really good job, that have really clean fruit, um because, like, why?
Speaker 1:why would a uh ferment get stuck? I mean, there's a lot of different things in my head, but you just talked about the growers, so okay, could it come from also the vineyard? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, if you've got pretty destroyed gross fruit, it's going to have a bunch of other non-yeast microorganisms on it that are going to compete and eventually maybe knock out your yeast populations, right. Eventually, you know, maybe knock out your yeast populations, right. Um. And then there's certain vineyards out there that like, just don't carry yeast loads on them, um, so you bring it into the winery and it's just, it might start a little bit from like house yeast that's floating around, but it's not going to be strong enough to fully kick it off so um.
Speaker 1:so I have an uncomfortable question, a little bit.
Speaker 2:Here it is. Let me take a sip of wine.
Speaker 1:So, I mean, I've talked with a lot of people, a lot of wine professionals that have been in the business for a long time, and there's this ongoing debate between native yeast and a lot of the conventional. It seems like the more the conventional um winemakers and growers are saying well, it's not necessarily native yeast, it's just like whatever is the most dominant yeast that's floating around in your wine, that's starting it yeah um, what is your opinion on that?
Speaker 1:like I, I tried to kind of combat it because in Santa Barbara that's where my wine journey began and all the people that I'm friends with down there they do a lot of native ferments, and one of them Piedra Sossi, sossi, mormon and Raj Par they started their own yeast culture within that specific vineyard. Yeah, um, and they do a pied de couve, or pied de couve, uh, to start their ferments a lot of times, and also witcraft the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yep, um, I've done a pied de couve before you do it's a process um yeah I don't do it anymore. I think it's uh yeah, unnecessary or yeah, it's just. Uh, it's a lot of work and I feel like it. It didn't work out for me like I feel, like my, ferments are kicking off just fine by themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so did you do that because you wanted to try something, or because wanted to try. Okay, science shit basically yeah, play around, this is fun like, yeah, yeah, see what you could do, yeah yeah, but like what do you think is it?
Speaker 1:do you think it think it is? Whatever the most dominant yeast in your cellar is, that's starting the native ferment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure that plays a huge role, like what's floating around your cellar, I think, for us in this space. We've never had commercial yeast in here before and it's never been a winery previous to us so there shouldn't be any like commercial yeast yeah um strains floating around um but then are you worried about bertanomyces, also known as brett, while you strain, those people.
Speaker 2:um yeah, I mean, like there's brett that comes in on the grapes. I guess I'm not super worried about it. Maybe I should be, but I think, for the most part, the grapes that we bring in, you know, tend to be pretty clean. I think the majority of the microorganisms are Saccharomyces, and it finishes fermentation for us.
Speaker 1:So you haven't had a problem with bread or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Not a huge problem, I don't think. I think there's probably little bits here and there, but not over the top. And to be completely excuse me, to be completely honest, I'm like very sensitive not sensitive to Brett for some reason, like like other people that are like holy shit, this is like a Brett bomb. Yeah, like I, it doesn't hit me as bad.
Speaker 1:So yeah, when I think of Brett is there is there Brett in this carbo barbo? Is that what you're saying? There's no, brett. Is that the uncomfortable conversation we're having? No, for those of you listening, every wine I've had from Armour Wines has been very clean as far as wine faults are concerned, also very beautiful and complex in flavor profile.
Speaker 3:So you're good on all of us. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Which is why this podcast is happening, because if I tasted your wines and I thought they weren't good, I wouldn't do this podcast with you. It's like I'm here because I'm a fan, so I don't do any podcasts.
Speaker 3:We should do that one time, just give one person.
Speaker 1:We just don't like, just don't do any podcasts. If I'm not, we should do that one time, just give one person we just don't like. Just don't like, yeah, just like, don't tell them that, obviously, but and I think, like Super uncomfortable, I don't want to be fake. I hate being fake.
Speaker 3:It's the worst thing.
Speaker 1:I never said we'd have to be fake.
Speaker 3:I would just tell them that their line sucks. Can you do better?
Speaker 2:please my background. Going back to the cheese making yeah, you have to be super clean to make cheese or else people die. Yeah, so I think I was fortunate to start my food processing journey in a cheese making facility.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I'm over the top clean freak when it comes time for harvest.
Speaker 3:And well, just cleaning everything um, which I think helps, especially making low intervention wines, like you know, to not have um that like dirty production room smell, and yes, I think I I mean, I've been to a couple handful of wineries that they are just not organized or not clean, and you know for me to look at that and say, oh great, I'm drinking your wine and this is what your production facility looks like. Yeah, I think, and you know it's definitely a practice that people it's an at-home practice and it's a work practice and I think it is so important, especially for the winemakers, to take it more seriously than some do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because if you have like a dirty production room, I feel like you could smell in the glass.
Speaker 3:Yes, I feel like you could smell it in the glass, yes, and you can have all the money in the world, but just because you have all the money doesn't mean your wine's going to be clean if you're not cleaning up after your production is filled.
Speaker 1:I've seen, because some people make the excuse like, oh, we have a really small space.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter but.
Speaker 1:I've seen these smallest spaces. For example, here Be completely organized and clean like yours and like uh tanya from s yeah, we were just talking about that off off air and, um, you know like she has a little garage yep, you know, in her house and that she makes beautiful wines yeah, very clean, beautiful, yeah, and beautiful wines, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so do you. And it's like you know, you don't necessarily have to have like all the bells and whistles and a huge space. You just have to be organized and clean and figure it out for yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you even worked I think it was the Carhartts you said that they had um like tools for inside and for outside. Yeah, so it's not always necessary, but you know, it's the importance of bringing whatever's outside inside and vice versa.
Speaker 1:The car hearts are, in my opinion, known in my mind for going above and beyond and being completely above approach with like everything you know, um, like they go out of their way to make, with like everything you know, um, like they go out of their way to make sure, like everything is dialed in, everything's thought through to the tea, and so like they also do, uh, low intervention wines there as well, they do a mix, they do some conventional uh and they do commercial yeast, and then they also do a lot of native stuff, and so it really depends, because they have two labels.
Speaker 1:And one thing that Chase Carhart was telling me and he was on the pod in episode 10 or 12 or something like that, but when I worked there it was like these are inside tools only, like squeegees, you know, brooms or whatever it is. These are inside tools only and these are outside tools only, like squeegees, you know, brooms or whatever it is. These are inside tools only and these are outside tools only. So for cleaning up, the crush pad is a different tool that you have to grab. Oh yeah, then the inside tools, but you never want to mix them. You'll get yelled at I've tried not to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm a yeller. I talk strongly to a lot of interns about. Let's not put that on the ground, let's lean that up. It's just small things. I think that make a difference when it all adds up.
Speaker 1:So you have interns that work with you.
Speaker 2:No, like previous winemaking, oh, previous winemaking, gotcha. I have three children that are interns For life.
Speaker 3:They don't have a choice.
Speaker 1:Don't have a choice in that room.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but that's also just a great thing to teach those kids from the get-go, I mean, especially with this new day and age of children coming out. They probably could use that lesson.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:No offense to the younger generations listening but, it is concerning some days.
Speaker 1:You guys need to work. Oh my gosh, I went to.
Speaker 3:this is totally off subject, but I went to a coffee shop in Chelan the other day and the balls on them. I got my like the card reader back and it was 20, 30, 40, or 50% tip. What? And I was like you're high.
Speaker 1:For a coffee shop.
Speaker 3:And they're like maybe in high school, and I'm like 50% 50% for a coffee shop Drive and it was drive-thru only.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was like you literally just heated up a burrito in a microwave and made me a Red Bull with coconut milk in it Like you literally just went like this Servers that find any restaurants don't get 50%. No, when they actually bust their butts yeah where they actually do a lot of things.
Speaker 1:But I'm like.
Speaker 3:Looking at this little high schooler and was like you're not even giving me an option below 20%. It's wild. She's trying to save up for airpods or something like that, yeah, probably I was just like, oh my gosh, and like people are getting so like sick of tipping and I think, well, and that just like proves, well, everyone's kind of kind of constrained right now with the economy right now.
Speaker 1:It's kind of crazy. That's why we see a lot of wine, wine sales a decline yeah, huge decline, just kind of it sucks, but yeah but yeah, the tipping we've been trying to combat that, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I, I also got, uh, I was getting my air filters clean on my furnace and stuff and they're like do you want to tip? And I'm like to do your job.
Speaker 2:No, it's a little wild yeah.
Speaker 3:Like I'm so confused. Interesting topic I could rant about that all day, even though like tip me all the time.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to me, that 50% makes sense% 50% for Jasmine. If you see her in a tasting room, go tip her 50%, please. But no, I first learned about your style of winemaking through when you were at Fielding Hills before and then you did the concentric program, and I'm a wine nerd and my parents live in manson chelan area and they texted me.
Speaker 1:They're like a picture of this gamay because, you know, uh, when I was going through all of my uh sommelier certifications, um, I wanted, you know, burgundy, but I couldn't afford it. And so I went to Beaujolais and I was like, wow, this is phenomenal for 45 bucks to get crew Beaujolais for 45 or less a lot of times, and now it's like 70 or less, but you know, it happens here we are.
Speaker 3:When you get.
Speaker 1:That's because, like sommeliers and stuff, started propping up beaujolais and everyone started buying it, which is great because I I love gamay, and so when I saw carbonic gamay and I was like, oh my gosh, this is happening again chelan, this is awesome, um.
Speaker 1:and so they gave me a bottle of it and I was like, okay, this is good, this is really good, I like this, I like where this is going. And then I was like, who made this? And they're like, oh, tyler armor from fielding hills. And I was like, okay, cool. And then after that I just started following you because, like and no offense to anyone I feeling Hills isn't necessarily my style of wine and so I don't really gravitate towards their brand necessarily, but the Concentric Project was awesome. And then I just started following you wherever you went and then when you came out with your own label, I was like I have to try them, I have to try them. So I'm so glad to have you on the podcast, man, yeah this is great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing and I love what you're doing, so sign up for the wine club.
Speaker 3:That will be on the website.
Speaker 1:It'll be on the website.
Speaker 2:Can they email? I know what.
Speaker 1:I'm doing this afternoon. Can they email anyone for the wine club?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you can contact for them on the website and we'll get you signed up for sure. It's just not like a super fancy form on the website. But yeah, we'll get you signed up.
Speaker 3:Work on that later today. Yes exactly.
Speaker 1:Sign up for the Wine Club. At some point I will be a Wine Club member. I love everything you do, so this is my third wine of yours. I've tried.
Speaker 2:Only third.
Speaker 3:Only third. This is my first.
Speaker 1:This is my third Holy moly, well, except for Fielding Hills I think I've had your Gamay, your Viognier and then this guy.
Speaker 2:So we're going to open something else. So we're going to open something else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Try to get a wine club out of this baby.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys, so much for listening. If you want to hear more from tyler armor, um and their wines, take a peek at the show notes. In the description. We'll have links to their website and their wine club and their social media. So go follow them um, support them. They're amazing, they make awesome wines and you will never regret buying a bottle. So yes, thank you, tyler, yeah, cheers thank you, tyler, that's good not cheersing oh sorry you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
.jpg)
.jpg)