# Global Content Design, Episode 1: Growing the content design community in France
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Sarah Winters: Hello, welcome to the Global Content Design Podcast. Today we're talking to Gladys Diandokie. She's an independent content designer and conversation designer. She's an author, a lecturer and she runs a book club called Beyond the Cover. Today we're talking about content design and content strategy in France.
[Intro music]
Sarah: Hi Gladys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Gladys Diandokie: Thank you for inviting me.
Sarah: Okay, so we're going to start with where are you in the world?
Gladys: I'm in Paris and I've been living here for most of my life.
Sarah: And just tell us a bit about how you got to where you are now in the content industry.
Gladys: Before being a content designer, I was in media relations. I worked for major PR agencies in technology. And I worked for many brands like, I don't know, Nikon, Google, HP, Bose. One of my clients who was working in a specialised profile like in the technology field and UX, they told me about UX and I said "hmm that's interesting".
And in fact, I took UX design training a few months after that after doing a lot of research because content design didn't exist really, in France at least. And this is when I started reading books, so I read 'Microcopy' because it was in English at the time but after that was the only book available in French. I started reading Torrey Podmajersky and I read her book and sent her a message saying “Would you agree for an interview?" and she said yes and I started doing a few interviews on Medium.
And this is how I started doing UX and I started working on content design and understanding the position and the job and what we need to do, asking so many questions to so many people in the industry.
Sarah: Amazing. We're going to get to your book in just a minute, but I want to step back a bit. You were talking about, in France, there were books in English and not very many books. So how would you say that the kind of the state of digital, particularly content and how it's seen as an industry, what's that like in France?
Gladys: A lot of things have changed since I started, really. Because at the beginning, I was part of a small group of people who had to explain everything. And I see a massive change, because during the last 3 to 5 years, we came from being experimental. We knew the theory, but we didn't know everything about the job at the time.
And today, because we have books, we have podcasts, we have... In English and French, but everybody doesn't speak French... English, sorry. So it means all the people who speak English have a huge amount of resources to get to know the job. But all the people who don't are locked in French. And so you need to do with what you have. And this is why during the Covid time we had a Clubhouse, every Thursday an hour and a half. We were picking different topics, so sometimes it was many content designers, researchers, I mean we had different topics. I also invited a narrative designer, for example, to talk about what they do in narrative design and what we can take for us. And we always had people talking about accessibility. So that was really a wonderful time.
Sarah: Yeah, okay. So now that you've done that and you're spreading it out and it's incredible that you just took this thing and you're like, 'no, we need to do it for us in French', because I do find, and this is my bubble, but it seems like it's very English heavy.
Gladys: Definitely.
Sarah: Which is what this podcast is about, to raise up those other voices. So, how did it work with the product managers and the other people that you were working with when you were introducing this and saying, yeah, no English, French only?
Gladys: In fact, it was kind of easy. What I loved about the platform we have today, the book club for example, we had PMs coming, we had product designers coming and asking questions, we had many different people. And all those people are gonna bring colour and specialties in, and the product will be better. So we had everyone and we picked the topic to have everyone and listen to other people's perspectives. So sometimes we had UI and we had research.
We had localisation, we had someone, she's French, she works at Deliveroo. We had a man who worked in…he writes the movies. And we listened to him and said, okay, what can we pick from what he does? And we saw so many connections.
Sarah: Do you think this way of working in content is respected generally across France or is it still a little bit too new?
Gladys: I have struggled a lot. I had to fight a lot [laughs] to be able to do my job like it's supposed to be done. I remember also because you know the first book that was available in French was 'Microcopy'. And I mean, it's a good book in many ways, but that was the only one.
I mean, you only saw the microcopy and some rules and things you need to do, but not the process. And I remember someone telling me, I know what you do, you do microcopy. And I said, yes, but there's a little bit more behind that. And so each time, each time I had to, and this is why, you know, even in the way I was…when I was introduced to a new company. And I said, let's look if you agree. And most of the people, you know, when you explain, I mean, smart people, when you explain, they get it. I mean, most, and they are gonna have questions, but…it becomes a base for conversation.
So at the beginning you need to say yes because you need to work. But what I have seen today I see more and more people coming and saying we don't know we are super interested we want to learn. When before, I still love people who have the feeling that I came to steal their job. So things, I mean, the mindset has moved really.
Sarah: Yeah, I love that. When you can get to that point and you can say no, and so many people aren't there yet. But I would love to see the industry get to a point where nobody will work – like people won't be able to hire anybody unless they let them do the whole job.
So you've written a book. Tell us about your book.
Gladys: My book for me, it's a research book. I looked at many different fields. And I wanted to be sure that even if I was not doing everything that was in the book at the time, I understood clearly what the job was. And even your book, for example, I loved your book because you were explaining the process. Because the other book we had was more about the microcopy and less about the process, I also needed to fix this issue in my book. So that was interesting to say, okay, what do I do? What do we need? What do I learn from the experiences I have working with company? What type of question do I have all the time? Because I was already doing a bunch of talks.
So I had questions that came back all the time. We had the Clubhouse and we had an hour and a half every week for more than a year. So we had so much feedback, so many questions. I knew, I knew my users, if I can say that, my readers. And I knew what I needed to answer at the time. Writing is hard, but I think that made me grow really fast.
Sarah: So how long did it take you to write? Did you do it on your own?
Gladys: Yes, I did it on my own when we were locked down. I did the research, I always do research because that's a way of life. Sometimes some stuff was in my head but I did the writing for a little bit more than a year.
Sarah: And the bit that really stood out for me actually in your book, you talk about storytelling. Now, there is a very purist view, particularly in content design, that it can only be one thing and you can only do it one way. And it's for government, and it's for very kind of, I don't know, very rigid content. And that's not how I see it. And I don't think you see it like that either, do you?
Gladys: Definitely, no. When I do conversation design, because I do conversation design projects sometimes, I look at how people in the theatre and cinema write dialogues, and you can learn so much from them. I love writers for that, so every type of writer, because we can steal from them. Of course when I say steal it's not steal their technique and say this is yours, because I will never do that. But learn from what they do great and see how we can apply some of those exercises to our job.
Sarah: Yeah I love that – it's because we have some sort of connection with it. And you can't have a connection if you don't know who your audience is and it's exactly the same on digital.
Gladys: And this is why storytelling for me, it makes so much sense.
Sarah: Yeah.
Gladys: And this is why most of the time when I explain my job, I said, I'm doing exactly the same thing as a product designer.
My main point will be to figure out what information I need, so pick different information from different people, and frame the story in a way that will be appealing to the audience. I know I repeat that all the time. I say, we are not the hero, we are solving the people problem. Frame that story in a way that is appealing to the user.
Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. Also, it makes me think of… reminds me of a phrase here in the UK. If somebody is being the hero, right, they put their underpants on the outside and they have a cape. And I think you're quite right. Some organisations think they're like that, right? And it's like, no, it's not about us. It's all about them!
Gladys: And this is why some copywriting techniques, like Story Brand or other ones, definitely help.
Sarah: That's amazing. Okay, so your book, who do you recommend it for?
Gladys: It's a product design, I mean everyone in product but also marketing, copywriting. And it's interesting because I see a lot of lawyers using my book too because of legal design and because they want to understand how to write for real people and not for themselves. But everybody writes for other people.
Sarah: Tell me a little bit more about this law thing, because in the UK we have a huge problem with legal people putting loads of legal language everywhere and then everybody ignores it. And then the thing that they're trying to save people from doing and breaking the law, people do it because they don't understand it. Is that something that you have there too?
Gladys: We have the same. I mean, sometimes most of the time I struggle a little bit with that copy, but sometimes you find one person who says, okay, I understand. I'm okay to try. It's about patience today, but just find your allies and I know I reached some of the people in that field and said, okay, would you be happy to come to Clubhouse at the time? Or could you come to the company and talk about what we do when we invite people in the legal team.
Sarah: You're talking about patience. What do you think are the primary challenges then and the opportunities for content in France at the moment?
Gladys: Maybe let's think about research, for example. Most of the people don't even know what we need. So if we start being interested in research, looking at what we need, how we can improve the research with our skills too, I think we have huge opportunities there. Having research in our background makes us even more, I mean our work even more valuable. They know why you're here and they know the value of what you bring.
And maybe the main challenge I see, and something I discuss a lot because I think that's a real problem. We are mostly a woman field and with women's problem, which means let's ask for money. Let's talk about that. And I've been talking about that in the French market because yes, I said I can make money but if I'm the only one, I lose. I have the impression I'm not doing the job.
Sarah: Yeah, two things there. One, we should definitely, or content people should definitely charge what they're worth. Because I think if you get something for free, people don't value it as much. And so I don't think as an industry, we do ourselves any justice by going in saying, yeah, we're really cheap. Because it makes it seem like everybody can do it, right? Because it's cheap.
I did all of the events for free when I first started talking, because I had to. Because I was a civil servant and you can't take money, right? So you kind of have to. And then I got to a point where they were still asking me and I was running my own business and I'm like, hmm, this is a place of privilege for me because I can. Because, you know, I can arrange childcare. I can afford to travel. And it is totally, it's exclusive. You are excluding anybody who cannot afford either in time or money, or whatever, to do it. And as an industry, we need to stop it.
Gladys: Completely, and we need transparency because some events are going to tell you straight away. And one of them I'm thinking about doing a talk and I said are you paid? And she said, yes, I'm going to make that much. So, we know sometimes the money is here, but if you don't ask, you will have nothing. One of the main advice, it's key to discuss about that and ask people, okay, do you mind sharing? Or even if it's not the exact price, just give an idea.
Sarah: Yes. Because we do need to do that as an industry. So tell us about this book club. Can people come?
Gladys: Yes, the only thing is the mailing list is in French, but definitely you can ping me and say, oh, I'm interested, can I join? And we can give you access. In January, it's this book about money and it will be in French, but February it's the book about life and death design so if you want to join you can.
Sarah: You don't pick easy things do you? You're just picking all the challenges for yourself.
Gladys: I've always had no limits, so I don't want to put myself limits when everything is possible if we have the ideas and the time and we have no budget but we try to do fun things and for me if it's not interesting nobody wants to come and I'm happy everybody wants to join so that's cool.
Sarah: That's amazing. Okay, I have one question before we let you go. One more question. Can you think of any phrases or expressions that work in France, but they don't work anywhere else?
Gladys: Okay… I'm going to do the translation, but 'doigt dans le nez' - I don't know if people still say that. But it means fingers in the nose. What do you think it means?
Sarah: That you should get a tissue and blow your nose properly? I don't know, what does that mean?
Gladys: That means it's easy. I did it like a piece of cake. That's English.
Sarah: So, the finger in your nose means that it's easy.
[Laughter and cross talk]
Sarah: Okay, so we're going to wrap it up here, but thank you very much for coming on the podcast.
Gladys: Thank you.