{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":4.001,"endTime":9.179,"body":"Leaders shape culture, whether they try to or not."},{"startTime":9.76,"endTime":16.0,"body":"And I've had so many conversations with leaders, it's like, I'm not sure I'm ready for some, you know, the culture side."},{"startTime":16.32,"endTime":19.88,"body":"It's like, but you're doing it today."},{"startTime":19.14,"endTime":22.439,"body":"You're doing it every day, every word, every action."},{"startTime":22.439,"endTime":31.439,"body":"And I think leaders underestimate the impact of the words they use, the decisions they take, the actions they take."},{"startTime":31.019,"endTime":36.239,"body":"And they just underestimate how much people are paying attention to those."},{"startTime":43.299,"endTime":48.599,"body":"Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast."},{"startTime":48.079,"endTime":51.799,"body":"I'm Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart."},{"startTime":51.259,"endTime":58.979,"body":"Today, we are honored to have a fantastic guest, Jamie Flinchbaugh, joining us. Jamie,"},{"startTime":58.219,"endTime":63.779,"body":"thanks for being on. Thanks for having me. Great to see you both and to join."},{"startTime":63.899,"endTime":70.159,"body":"Absolutely. This is perfect for the topic at hand because the topic at hand is really,"},{"startTime":70.819,"endTime":77.619,"body":"how do leaders solve problems? As we dive into that, let me share a little bit about"},{"startTime":77.619,"endTime":82.699,"body":"Jamie's background and why it's so fantastic to have him here to talk about this topic."},{"startTime":83.479,"endTime":90.939,"body":"And so Jamie Flinchbaugh is the author of the book, People Solve Problems, and the host of the"},{"startTime":90.939,"endTime":97.779,"body":"podcast by the same name. He acts as a trusted advisor and thought partner for leaders through"},{"startTime":97.779,"endTime":105.459,"body":"his firm, JFlinch. So Jamie, again, fantastic to have you here. And let me start off with a"},{"startTime":105.459,"endTime":113.179,"body":"question to get things going here. What do we as leaders get wrong as we're trying to solve"},{"startTime":113.179,"endTime":119.459,"body":"problems? Because leaders are always trying to solve problems. What do we get wrong with this?"},{"startTime":119.699,"endTime":125.199,"body":"Talk to us about this. Well, I think the first thing I want to start with is we kind of take"},{"startTime":125.199,"endTime":132.079,"body":"it for granted. We take for granted all the elements that lead to success because we've"},{"startTime":132.079,"endTime":139.139,"body":"been doing it since we were infants. So I kind of sometimes liken it to breathing, right? We breathe."},{"startTime":139.239,"endTime":146.179,"body":"We don't spend a lot of time thinking about how we breathe. We just do it. But then we find out"},{"startTime":146.179,"endTime":151.099,"body":"whether we're training for sports or meditation or other things that there's more to learn about"},{"startTime":151.099,"endTime":157.039,"body":"breathing. And when we are thoughtful about it, we can do it better, more usefully. Problem solving"},{"startTime":157.039,"endTime":161.519,"body":"is the same thing. I think we're on autopilot so much of the time ourselves as leaders,"},{"startTime":161.779,"endTime":167.699,"body":"but then also we take for granted that everybody on our team has been doing it. I've hired them to"},{"startTime":167.699,"endTime":173.859,"body":"do this. They should all be able to solve problems. So I think that the number one thing we get wrong"},{"startTime":173.859,"endTime":180.359,"body":"is we take for granted what it takes to be successful in problem solving. And then I think"},{"startTime":180.359,"endTime":186.359,"body":"building on that, just sort of extending that thought of taking it for granted, I think we also"},{"startTime":186.359,"endTime":193.739,"body":"take for granted our role as a leader in that aspect. And so we just jump in and start solving"},{"startTime":193.739,"endTime":199.619,"body":"problems. And we aren't always thoughtful about what role we should play and what role we shouldn't"},{"startTime":199.619,"endTime":205.759,"body":"play. So that, again, putting ourselves on autopilot, taking it all for granted, just leads"},{"startTime":205.759,"endTime":211.059,"body":"to a cascade of errors, I believe. It's true, I think, as we're listening to that process, and"},{"startTime":211.059,"endTime":218.119,"body":"even that analogy of breathing. You know, so many actions we perform that we don't necessarily think"},{"startTime":218.119,"endTime":223.139,"body":"about, but when you dissect it down for that intentionality, we can sure improve at it."},{"startTime":223.939,"endTime":229.839,"body":"So you're reminding me of a leadership gem, Jamie, that my dad's often shared that we've"},{"startTime":229.839,"endTime":237.079,"body":"used from Peter Drucker. And it says, a problem well-defined is a problem half-solved. So I think"},{"startTime":237.079,"endTime":241.619,"body":"even before we start diving into problem solving, let's define that a little bit."},{"startTime":241.779,"endTime":249.619,"body":"How do you define a problem? So I think of a problem as a gap, right? Any gap. And so"},{"startTime":249.619,"endTime":256.899,"body":"they happen at many different levels, open-ended, ill-defined, strategic problems or gaps"},{"startTime":256.899,"endTime":262.419,"body":"are problems, all the way down to troubleshooting. I've got a computer error and I've got to"},{"startTime":262.419,"endTime":270.019,"body":"troubleshoot my way through it. So a huge range. But if we define most of the gaps as either a gap"},{"startTime":270.019,"endTime":275.219,"body":"to standard, meaning we were performing here and now we've slipped and we have to get back to where"},{"startTime":275.219,"endTime":282.659,"body":"we were, or a gap to need or expectation, and that's maybe something we've never achieved before,"},{"startTime":282.139,"endTime":288.539,"body":"but we're trying to. And they can be human performance gaps, process gaps, outcome gaps,"},{"startTime":289.739,"endTime":296.039,"body":"you know, all sorts of things. But I think of any gap as really a problem. And when we think"},{"startTime":296.039,"endTime":304.659,"body":"about it that way, we can liberally apply many of the either methods or behaviors or mindsets"},{"startTime":304.659,"endTime":312.599,"body":"that come with more rigorous problem solving to those gaps. Yeah. And I like how you frame that up,"},{"startTime":312.699,"endTime":321.819,"body":"this gap idea either to an existing standard or to a desired standard of some sort, a hope,"},{"startTime":321.239,"endTime":328.639,"body":"some expectation in the future. And as I've been reading your book, I really enjoy how you frame up"},{"startTime":328.639,"endTime":334.999,"body":"the role of a leader in several different ways. And I want to touch upon at least three as we"},{"startTime":334.999,"endTime":340.079,"body":"keep talking through this. So I'm just going to mention these three, and then we'll dive back into"},{"startTime":340.079,"endTime":346.739,"body":"the first one here. It's really a leader as a system architect, the leader who really is"},{"startTime":346.739,"endTime":352.699,"body":"understanding the overall help chain. What does that look like? What does that mean?"},{"startTime":352.259,"endTime":358.659,"body":"The second is really the leader as a culture builder, this notion of being able to set the"},{"startTime":358.659,"endTime":365.019,"body":"example, create an accountability, a broader cultural set of norms. And the third is really"},{"startTime":365.019,"endTime":372.759,"body":"the leader as the shaper of problem solving itself, not just the shaper of the problem,"},{"startTime":372.019,"endTime":380.359,"body":"but the shaper of the process by which we go about solving these problems. So with this as a backdrop,"},{"startTime":380.779,"endTime":387.499,"body":"let's dive into this first one, this notion of system architect. What in the world does that"},{"startTime":387.499,"endTime":393.519,"body":"mean, leader as system architect? Give us, how would you translate that language and give us"},{"startTime":393.519,"endTime":401.219,"body":"some examples of what that looks like? Yeah, so it's maybe academic or aspirational language and"},{"startTime":401.219,"endTime":410.819,"body":"probably violates my goal of always being clear. But fundamentally, we're surrounded by work"},{"startTime":410.819,"endTime":420.319,"body":"processes and systems. And those processes and systems either help us in our problem solving or"},{"startTime":420.319,"endTime":427.279,"body":"distract us from our problem solving, right? And I'll just start with the idea of even just how do"},{"startTime":427.279,"endTime":432.079,"body":"we look around at what is a problem, right? I can look at my inbox and kind of go, oh, there's the"},{"startTime":432.079,"endTime":439.359,"body":"most important problem, or look at my goals and go, oh, there's my most important problem, or just"},{"startTime":439.359,"endTime":444.279,"body":"wait for somebody to enter my office and bring me a problem, and there's my most important problem."},{"startTime":445.299,"endTime":451.839,"body":"And so if we just sort of think about the management system of what are we paying attention to"},{"startTime":451.299,"endTime":460.839,"body":"and how is that attention grabbing system drawing our collective attention to the right"},{"startTime":460.299,"endTime":464.839,"body":"gaps that need our attention and not to the wrong ones, right?"},{"startTime":464.839,"endTime":472.879,"body":"Because we all know what can happen if you just if you live your life as a leader in your inbox,"},{"startTime":472.839,"endTime":477.879,"body":"you will you will solve problems. Right. They'll come to you. They'll show up."},{"startTime":477.839,"endTime":483.879,"body":"But that's not a very elaborate or thoughtful system as opposed to here's our goals."},{"startTime":483.839,"endTime":486.879,"body":"Here's our metrics. Here's our gaps. Here's our priorities."},{"startTime":486.879,"endTime":496.779,"body":"And if we understand how all of those things start to stack up, then we can focus our attention on the right problems."},{"startTime":496.399,"endTime":499.739,"body":"So that is perhaps the most important thing."},{"startTime":499.899,"endTime":508.639,"body":"But I think, at least in the management system, I think a lot of it is attention management, just like in the cockpit of your car."},{"startTime":508.359,"endTime":512.919,"body":"You don't have an indicator for everything."},{"startTime":512.439,"endTime":515.739,"body":"There's a whole lot of things it's not telling you about."},{"startTime":515.419,"endTime":519.939,"body":"but it will tell you some things it tells you about all the time because you should pay"},{"startTime":519.939,"endTime":526.259,"body":"attention to it all the time. Other things it tells you about only when it needs your attention."},{"startTime":526.219,"endTime":532.879,"body":"And so in the cockpit of a car is your personal driving management system. You know what to pay"},{"startTime":532.879,"endTime":538.519,"body":"attention to. How's that work for a team in their day-to-day work so that they are ultimately"},{"startTime":538.519,"endTime":545.339,"body":"working on the right problems? And it's a human system. People design it often by accident rather"},{"startTime":545.339,"endTime":551.439,"body":"by deliberate action. But that's the leader's job is to make sure by building that right system,"},{"startTime":551.539,"endTime":558.499,"body":"the team is focused on the right stuff. And you're reminding us, Jamie, as you're sharing that,"},{"startTime":558.959,"endTime":567.179,"body":"just the challenge it is as a leader to not just be reactive, but to be proactive."},{"startTime":567.999,"endTime":571.719,"body":"And so much of the thing, you know, just that example of looking at the inbox. I think the"},{"startTime":571.719,"endTime":577.879,"body":"minute you mentioned an inbox, so many of us are drawn right to, yep, we know how that feels."},{"startTime":577.879,"endTime":582.299,"body":"And you know, the fires that come through, okay, here's the crisis here, here's this, and it can feel like"},{"startTime":582.299,"endTime":588.399,"body":"you have no control over really where your day's going and where your time is going to be. And it's"},{"startTime":588.399,"endTime":595.119,"body":"the tail wagging the dog. And it sounds like the essence of that, you know, system architect as a"},{"startTime":595.119,"endTime":602.799,"body":"leader is to one, recognize, take that step back, look at the broader picture. You actually have"},{"startTime":602.799,"endTime":608.499,"body":"some choices here over where you spend your time, where you allocate the resources, where you're"},{"startTime":608.499,"endTime":617.299,"body":"investing effort and energy so that it can help be accomplishing not just activity, but results."},{"startTime":617.419,"endTime":622.899,"body":"Yeah. And that point you made around we have choices, I think this is something I often have"},{"startTime":622.899,"endTime":630.119,"body":"to really emphasize is we do have, we're not a victim, right? We do have choices. They have"},{"startTime":630.119,"endTime":636.679,"body":"consequences, right? They have consequences that all choices do. But the fact is, none of us are"},{"startTime":636.679,"endTime":642.419,"body":"working on every problem to stay with problem solving or getting everything done. That means,"},{"startTime":642.639,"endTime":649.999,"body":"by definition, choices are being made, right? And so there's a list of stuff, and here's the end of"},{"startTime":649.999,"endTime":655.699,"body":"the day and some of that stuff gets done and some of it doesn't. Now, a lot of those choices,"},{"startTime":655.819,"endTime":659.959,"body":"some of them are being made for us. Some of them we're making consciously. A lot of them we're"},{"startTime":659.959,"endTime":666.779,"body":"making out of habits, right? It's a habitual choice rather than a conscious choice, but we are"},{"startTime":666.779,"endTime":674.859,"body":"making choices, right? That's the thing. And so I'll share a quick story about this and it's,"},{"startTime":674.379,"endTime":679.339,"body":"I guess it relates to problem solving still, but it's around these choices. I was working with a,"},{"startTime":679.339,"endTime":684.199,"body":"an IT leadership team and they have two huddles every week, part of their management system."},{"startTime":684.719,"endTime":688.259,"body":"On Monday, everybody writes down their number one priority for the week."},{"startTime":688.899,"endTime":694.519,"body":"And on Wednesday, they just kind of give it a green or red, are they on track to get it done?"},{"startTime":694.519,"endTime":699.859,"body":"And this one person in the room put a red, marked it red. And it's like, well, okay, well,"},{"startTime":699.919,"endTime":704.179,"body":"and I still can't, it was a while ago, I can't remember if I asked or the leader asked, but"},{"startTime":704.179,"endTime":708.299,"body":"it was, well, how long is it going to take to get that done? It's like about,"},{"startTime":708.519,"endTime":713.219,"body":"probably have four hours. It's like, well, it's Wednesday. Don't you have four hours between now"},{"startTime":713.219,"endTime":720.419,"body":"and Friday? It's like, I don't, I have so many meetings. And it's like, well, hang on. Is this,"},{"startTime":720.419,"endTime":727.079,"body":"or is this not your number one priority? And yeah, you're going to have to say no to some"},{"startTime":727.079,"endTime":732.659,"body":"meetings and you might have people judging you. You might have people mad at you, but like I said,"},{"startTime":732.739,"endTime":740.119,"body":"There's consequences, but are any of those consequences worse than not getting your number one priority done, right?"},{"startTime":740.619,"endTime":746.579,"body":"And this huddle was part of that system, right, that management system, the system architect,"},{"startTime":746.619,"endTime":750.579,"body":"to help increase the odds that we got our number one priorities done"},{"startTime":750.619,"endTime":754.579,"body":"by defining them and then evaluating them before the week ran out."},{"startTime":754.579,"endTime":758.579,"body":"And it worked, right, because the person took different actions coming out of that huddle."},{"startTime":759.319,"endTime":760.839,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"startTime":760.999,"endTime":769.539,"body":"And so building on this, it's so helpful to identify all of these factors that can influence the decision"},{"startTime":769.999,"endTime":775.539,"body":"making that we each go through to figure out what the heck we're going to focus on at any one moment."},{"startTime":775.879,"endTime":783.639,"body":"And what fascinates me is the criteria we use by which we decide."},{"startTime":783.759,"endTime":792.879,"body":"And ideally, of course, goals and priorities, strategies are all cascaded and a lovely, you know, alignment."},{"startTime":792.219,"endTime":795.579,"body":"And we go, oh, this fits here. I will now adjust."},{"startTime":795.299,"endTime":802.999,"body":"And yet in reality, we are these perfect, passionate, fallible humans."},{"startTime":802.059,"endTime":811.899,"body":"And we might actually choose things out of habit, yes, and out of identity and out of preference."},{"startTime":811.459,"endTime":818.099,"body":"And we all seem to kind of enjoy certain types of problems we like to solve more often than not."},{"startTime":818.739,"endTime":825.679,"body":"And we might gravitate, whether we realize it or not, gravitate toward those kinds of problems."},{"startTime":825.179,"endTime":831.639,"body":"Maybe it's because it's some sort of report that you helped create five years ago,"},{"startTime":831.179,"endTime":834.639,"body":"and now you're the director, and you just love that report."},{"startTime":834.899,"endTime":836.639,"body":"You want to dive deep into that report."},{"startTime":836.839,"endTime":837.759,"body":"That's you."},{"startTime":837.939,"endTime":842.859,"body":"And yet, as a director, you should spend five minutes on that stupid report,"},{"startTime":842.939,"endTime":846.859,"body":"because that actually is the value that you need to gain from it."},{"startTime":846.599,"endTime":850.939,"body":"Jamie, how do we resist as humans?"},{"startTime":850.079,"endTime":855.099,"body":"How do we make it more conscious so that we're not overly influenced"},{"startTime":855.079,"endTime":860.099,"body":"by those identities and by our preferences for the kinds of problems?"},{"startTime":860.099,"endTime":868.799,"body":"And just another comment on that, sometimes it's not dealing with the people side because"},{"startTime":868.099,"endTime":875.799,"body":"we prefer the technical side. And yet a leader, they need to be able to deal with the messiness."},{"startTime":875.099,"endTime":878.799,"body":"So how do you balance that criteria?"},{"startTime":878.799,"endTime":885.579,"body":"Well, I think there's an inside-out approach and there's an outside-in approach, and we need both."},{"startTime":885.959,"endTime":893.159,"body":"So the inside-out approach is you need to have your criteria sort of pre-established."},{"startTime":893.559,"endTime":898.279,"body":"And how am I making decisions? What are my heuristics for making decisions?"},{"startTime":898.499,"endTime":903.119,"body":"So in my small little team, it's like customers come first."},{"startTime":903.119,"endTime":910.099,"body":"Right. So any client has a need to just take care of that. And then here's my goals. Those come next."},{"startTime":910.119,"endTime":912.099,"body":"And then there's all the other stuff. Right."},{"startTime":912.119,"endTime":920.099,"body":"So you need some heuristics that allow you to make some decisions quickly and consistently."},{"startTime":920.099,"endTime":926.099,"body":"And they may not all be optimal, but again, you can do it quickly and you can do it consistently."},{"startTime":926.339,"endTime":936.399,"body":"And so having that to help guide you and make decisions versus overthink each one is, I think, part of it."},{"startTime":936.619,"endTime":940.559,"body":"The outside in is you design the system, going back to system architect,"},{"startTime":940.619,"endTime":946.559,"body":"you design the system to help nudge you in the right direction."},{"startTime":946.339,"endTime":947.539,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":947.619,"endTime":949.039,"body":"So I'll use a personal example for me."},{"startTime":949.039,"endTime":956.079,"body":"My browser tabs are lined up where first it's my calendar, because that's the stuff that has"},{"startTime":956.079,"endTime":962.819,"body":"urgency to it. Then it's, I use Trello for this, then it's my to-do list, right? And then third is"},{"startTime":962.819,"endTime":969.899,"body":"my email inbox, right? And so when I open my computer and log on, right, that's, they're kind"},{"startTime":969.899,"endTime":974.839,"body":"of lined up. Like first know what you have to get, pay attention to today, then know what you're"},{"startTime":974.839,"endTime":979.659,"body":"working on and what's important and only then end up in your inbox. And that's, you know, easier for"},{"startTime":979.659,"endTime":989.879,"body":"me as a, you know, outside person without a big company. But even, you know, as we build,"},{"startTime":989.079,"endTime":993.319,"body":"you know, systems for prioritization, whatever that might be, it's like, hey, here's the next"},{"startTime":993.319,"endTime":998.339,"body":"bit of work, right? It doesn't matter. Like we've lined it up, right? We've built our system."},{"startTime":998.739,"endTime":1004.579,"body":"Here's our queue. You can't jump over other stuff to go grab what you want next, right? We're,"},{"startTime":1004.579,"endTime":1010.179,"body":"we're running the kitchen and here's the next order ticket on the, on the carousel. And you"},{"startTime":1010.179,"endTime":1015.299,"body":"grab the next ticket and you can't put it back and go, I didn't want to do that. So you just"},{"startTime":1015.299,"endTime":1023.299,"body":"build the system to help do what you know needs to be done and make it, make it almost a conscious"},{"startTime":1023.299,"endTime":1028.959,"body":"act of doing the wrong thing, which we still will do sometimes, but, but I'm going to over,"},{"startTime":1028.959,"endTime":1035.679,"body":"I'm going to consciously bypass the system to do what I want rather than what I should do,"},{"startTime":1035.959,"endTime":1038.679,"body":"which, again, sometimes is going to happen,"},{"startTime":1038.959,"endTime":1043.679,"body":"but it's a lot less likely when the system is at least nudging us in the right direction."},{"startTime":1045.119,"endTime":1050.879,"body":"These are great suggestions and tips of how we can structure the system around us"},{"startTime":1050.119,"endTime":1055.879,"body":"to help encourage us to adopt healthy, appropriate, productive behaviors."},{"startTime":1055.879,"endTime":1056.699,"body":"I love it."},{"startTime":1056.719,"endTime":1058.899,"body":"Even just, you know, how you had your browser tabs."},{"startTime":1058.039,"endTime":1059.919,"body":"That's a great little tip."},{"startTime":1059.919,"endTime":1066.579,"body":"Little things. Yeah, little things. So let's continue this conversation as we've talked about the system"},{"startTime":1066.919,"endTime":1075.579,"body":"architect idea of the leader. Let's dive into the culture builder part a little bit more and really what role that plays in,"},{"startTime":1075.919,"endTime":1081.579,"body":"you know, helping create environments of accountability for individuals and that example that a leader set."},{"startTime":1081.579,"endTime":1089.859,"body":"So what role or what actions, behaviors can a leader do to help establish that culture of problem solving?"},{"startTime":1089.439,"endTime":1098.158,"body":"Yeah, so I think first it's important to recognize that good problem solving is enabled through the right behaviors, not the right tools."},{"startTime":1098.439,"endTime":1104.099,"body":"Tools are useful, but it's the right behaviors that matter the most, right?"},{"startTime":1104.139,"endTime":1108.278,"body":"You have two contractors that come to work on your home and they all have the same tools."},{"startTime":1108.579,"endTime":1115.719,"body":"One is careful and deliberate. The other is just, you know, they just make it up as they go along."},{"startTime":1115.579,"endTime":1119.719,"body":"Which one do you want? Right. It's the behavior that makes makes all the difference."},{"startTime":1119.579,"endTime":1126.719,"body":"And leaders shape culture, whether they try to or not."},{"startTime":1126.579,"endTime":1133.239,"body":"And I've had so many conversations with leaders. It's like, I'm not sure I'm ready for some, you know, the culture side."},{"startTime":1133.579,"endTime":1139.239,"body":"It's like, but you're doing it today. You're doing it every word, every action."},{"startTime":1139.579,"endTime":1144.239,"body":"And I think fundamentally, this kind of goes back to the opening question of what are leaders getting wrong?"},{"startTime":1144.239,"endTime":1153.399,"body":"I think leaders underestimate the impact of the words they use, the decisions they take, the actions they take."},{"startTime":1153.019,"endTime":1157.199,"body":"And they just underestimate how much people are paying attention to those."},{"startTime":1157.959,"endTime":1164.699,"body":"So I think so, so, sticking with problem solving. So I'm a I'm a models guy. I love models."},{"startTime":1164.699,"endTime":1172.959,"body":"I fundamentally believe all models are wrong and some are useful. So I've used many, many different models for culture change."},{"startTime":1172.959,"endTime":1181.179,"body":"I don't personally care which one you use. I've been using, I'll say more recently, like the last 10 years,"},{"startTime":1181.959,"endTime":1188.179,"body":"Jeff Grimshaw's five frequencies, just because I found it very interesting and flexible."},{"startTime":1188.859,"endTime":1197.119,"body":"But you have to be thinking about what are the signals that people are picking up on and what message are they carrying?"},{"startTime":1197.119,"endTime":1206.219,"body":"And so I'll take a behavior of problem solving. I believe curiosity around why are things happening the way that they are,"},{"startTime":1206.119,"endTime":1214.219,"body":"cause and effect, why are things happening, that deep curiosity has to be part of that culture."},{"startTime":1214.279,"endTime":1217.859,"body":"Right. And so what does a leader have to do?"},{"startTime":1217.959,"endTime":1221.419,"body":"They have to demonstrate that in both sides."},{"startTime":1221.759,"endTime":1226.419,"body":"One, not pretend they already have the answer all the time."},{"startTime":1226.659,"endTime":1232.939,"body":"Right. Kind of go, I don't know cause and effect here, but here's what I'm going to go do to find out."},{"startTime":1232.939,"endTime":1238.239,"body":"And if leaders never say those words, then what people pick up on is, you know,"},{"startTime":1238.939,"endTime":1240.239,"body":"leaders are the people that already know the answer."},{"startTime":1240.559,"endTime":1242.559,"body":"Right. Whether they intended to or not."},{"startTime":1242.879,"endTime":1247.779,"body":"And on the other side, with other people owning problems, they have to ask lots of questions."},{"startTime":1247.779,"endTime":1257.799,"body":"They have to probe not around did you get the right answer, but were you rigorous in your thought process?"},{"startTime":1257.579,"endTime":1263.659,"body":"And so I was just a couple hours ago having a conversation about a particular problem,"},{"startTime":1263.779,"endTime":1273.339,"body":"I was commenting around how much the team did not assume, based on their personal preference, what the causes were."},{"startTime":1273.419,"endTime":1276.119,"body":"This was around meetings and meeting structure and what's effective."},{"startTime":1276.699,"endTime":1278.819,"body":"All right, so we all have our preferences."},{"startTime":1278.079,"endTime":1280.699,"body":"They didn't go down that route."},{"startTime":1280.159,"endTime":1282.259,"body":"They collected data, did surveys."},{"startTime":1282.719,"endTime":1285.139,"body":"They kind of went into it with rigorous curiosity."},{"startTime":1285.839,"endTime":1293.379,"body":"And so as a leader, I want to test how curious were you, not did you come up with the right answer."},{"startTime":1293.379,"endTime":1299.419,"body":"And if my line of questioning leads to that, it's going to help reinforce the right behavior,"},{"startTime":1299.379,"endTime":1302.419,"body":"which is be curious about cause and effect."},{"startTime":1302.219,"endTime":1306.379,"body":"So leaders affect culture each and every day."},{"startTime":1306.599,"endTime":1313.239,"body":"They don't need a three-ring binder worth of plans, but they need some intentionality"},{"startTime":1313.599,"endTime":1317.239,"body":"in their words, their actions, their decisions, and their questions."},{"startTime":1317.939,"endTime":1322.659,"body":"And that starts to shape the behaviors in the organization."},{"startTime":1322.658,"endTime":1326.179,"body":"I appreciate your use of the term curiosity."},{"startTime":1326.658,"endTime":1333.179,"body":"It's one of my favorite words, especially because we've talked on the program here in previous episodes."},{"startTime":1333.658,"endTime":1337.179,"body":"The opposite of curiosity is judgment."},{"startTime":1337.658,"endTime":1345.179,"body":"When you have the right answer, and you no longer have a spirit of learning, it's like that's right or wrong,"},{"startTime":1345.658,"endTime":1351.179,"body":"that's good or bad, that's ugly or beautiful, already judged, versus let me probe."},{"startTime":1351.658,"endTime":1358.419,"body":"Let me ask a little deeper. Let me suspend my hypothesis long enough to be able to entertain"},{"startTime":1358.419,"endTime":1366.378,"body":"alternative ideas and even go so far as to hold two opposing viewpoints at the same time or more"},{"startTime":1366.378,"endTime":1375.219,"body":"and to be comfortable with that for a time to then further explore. And yet that is so dang hard,"},{"startTime":1375.658,"endTime":1382.978,"body":"especially for leaders who have not fully transitioned to becoming a leader, and they"},{"startTime":1382.978,"endTime":1388.819,"body":"might still be having an individual contributor mindset, which is oftentimes, here's the right"},{"startTime":1388.819,"endTime":1395.098,"body":"answer. I'm going to execute and create a technical correct answer, and then give it,"},{"startTime":1395.278,"endTime":1404.579,"body":"and here you go, versus a leader transitioning from one to many options, many ideas. And usually"},{"startTime":1404.578,"endTime":1411.698,"body":"the types of problems that leaders are dealing with, complex, uncertain, and both at times,"},{"startTime":1411.918,"endTime":1419.838,"body":"to be able to then be open and learning. This learning mentality to make sure that"},{"startTime":1419.838,"endTime":1427.638,"body":"a leader is not thinking they're the only ones, they're all that and a bag of chips. No, there is"},{"startTime":1427.638,"endTime":1437.358,"body":"something else and it's being open, but that is so hard to manage for one's own identity and ego. Jamie,"},{"startTime":1437.098,"endTime":1447.939,"body":"keep talking in terms of what other ways can leaders keep that learning curiosity mindset open?"},{"startTime":1447.518,"endTime":1456.458,"body":"I think the words we use are really important. I like to say that some of the most powerful words"},{"startTime":1456.458,"endTime":1464.618,"body":"a leader can use is I don't know. Just to signal there's more to know. When I talk about problem"},{"startTime":1464.618,"endTime":1471.998,"body":"solving, I talk about it's a knowledge gap closing process first, and then it's performance gap"},{"startTime":1471.998,"endTime":1479.718,"body":"closing process. So if we already knew what we needed to know, it's just go execute, right?"},{"startTime":1479.198,"endTime":1491.878,"body":"So, I think fundamentally treating things as experiments, many times, even if we think we know,"},{"startTime":1491.198,"endTime":1497.878,"body":"then it allows for that open mindset, that openness to learning."},{"startTime":1497.998,"endTime":1499.478,"body":"So, I'll give a simple example."},{"startTime":1499.598,"endTime":1500.498,"body":"I use this in the book."},{"startTime":1499.858,"endTime":1502.778,"body":"I don't know if I use it to make this particular point."},{"startTime":1502.778,"endTime":1508.978,"body":"But if your gasket gauge says E, we're pretty sure we know the answer."},{"startTime":1508.158,"endTime":1513.679,"body":"We shouldn't act like a learner out of false signaling."},{"startTime":1513.358,"endTime":1516.079,"body":"Go to the petrol station, fill her up."},{"startTime":1516.358,"endTime":1518.518,"body":"That's what we do."},{"startTime":1518.018,"endTime":1525.719,"body":"But we should also then look at the gas gauge and kind of go, okay, is it now full?"},{"startTime":1525.199,"endTime":1527.638,"body":"That's the end of that."},{"startTime":1527.079,"endTime":1533.719,"body":"It's a very easy, low investment test to kind of go, did it work the way it was always working?"},{"startTime":1533.718,"endTime":1540.858,"body":"And then if not, well, how do we go? What happens next? Right. Being curious about what happens next."},{"startTime":1540.718,"endTime":1545.858,"body":"So there's problems where we we know the answer."},{"startTime":1545.718,"endTime":1550.858,"body":"Put put gas in the car, but we still have to be flexible to being surprised. Right."},{"startTime":1550.718,"endTime":1556.858,"body":"There's ones where we think we know the answer. Don't don't, you know, wrap it all up in all this fancy"},{"startTime":1556.718,"endTime":1561.858,"body":"problem solving when you already think you know what you need to do, but treat it like an experiment."},{"startTime":1561.858,"endTime":1569.458,"body":"Here's the test I'm going to do. I'm going to validate that my intuition, instinct, judgment was correct."},{"startTime":1569.318,"endTime":1573.618,"body":"And then, yeah, I don't know. Then I'm going really into problem solving."},{"startTime":1573.138,"endTime":1580.878,"body":"But if you treat all where you're curious about the outcomes and, you know, I'm expecting a certain outcome,"},{"startTime":1580.138,"endTime":1586.878,"body":"but rather than being shocked by not getting it, I become curious by not getting it."},{"startTime":1586.878,"endTime":1593.498,"body":"So I think that's the predominant thing we do, I think, to stay curious."},{"startTime":1593.178,"endTime":1603.158,"body":"I think the other thing we can do is to practice by putting ourselves into situations where we're uncomfortably learning."},{"startTime":1603.278,"endTime":1610.918,"body":"So I'm actually headed very shortly to the National Association of Corporate Directors."},{"startTime":1610.918,"endTime":1614.858,"body":"And it's not uncomfortable, but it's their annual summit."},{"startTime":1614.918,"endTime":1621.858,"body":"And it's just filled with top shelf speakers about massive range of topics that I want to be smarter about."},{"startTime":1621.918,"endTime":1631.858,"body":"But I'm learning. Last time I went, I took 50 pages of notes away. I was just in pure learning mode for three days."},{"startTime":1631.758,"endTime":1636.318,"body":"So whether it's take a different role or volunteer for a project"},{"startTime":1636.758,"endTime":1641.318,"body":"or just go look at some work that your organization does,"},{"startTime":1641.758,"endTime":1650.318,"body":"I think we have to put ourselves into situations where there's no expectation that we should know what's going on."},{"startTime":1650.318,"endTime":1656.078,"body":"We can comfortably just commit or submit to the learner's role"},{"startTime":1656.318,"endTime":1663.078,"body":"and be in that mode and absorb information and insight, whatever else we're getting."},{"startTime":1663.318,"endTime":1669.078,"body":"And I think that just builds muscle. It builds practice reps for being a learner."},{"startTime":1669.078,"endTime":1679.118,"body":"And there's, you know, I continue to look for, as I take on clients, there's actually, for me,"},{"startTime":1679.078,"endTime":1683.118,"body":"I very consciously stop taking on what I call easy clients."},{"startTime":1683.978,"endTime":1690.638,"body":"Ones that, you know, their questions are ones that I've heard a thousand times before,"},{"startTime":1690.978,"endTime":1694.638,"body":"and I'm just going to like, you know, I'm just going to point to the gas station."},{"startTime":1694.638,"endTime":1696.778,"body":"And be like, yeah, this is what you do."},{"startTime":1696.838,"endTime":1698.018,"body":"You put gas in the car, right?"},{"startTime":1698.558,"endTime":1705.498,"body":"And because they don't keep me learning. So I really see clients that ask me really, really hard questions."},{"startTime":1705.558,"endTime":1711.498,"body":"And that keeps me in a learner's mindset. So that's easy for me from where I'm sitting."},{"startTime":1711.558,"endTime":1718.498,"body":"But I think you practice learning by putting yourself into situations. And that's how you maintain your curiosity."},{"startTime":1718.638,"endTime":1723.278,"body":"There's a fundamental element of humility to our professional development we need to maintain."},{"startTime":1723.678,"endTime":1728.018,"body":"And I think that really does help keep that curiosity alive."},{"startTime":1728.098,"endTime":1730.418,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1730.558,"endTime":1732.298,"body":"So, Jamie, we've talked about problem solving."},{"startTime":1732.438,"endTime":1734.738,"body":"We've talked about systems."},{"startTime":1734.738,"endTime":1739.618,"body":"And let me pose a scenario to you."},{"startTime":1739.738,"endTime":1752.798,"body":"Would you rather have a good outcome come out of a poor system or a poor outcome out of a good system?"},{"startTime":1752.258,"endTime":1759.478,"body":"Well, it depends on the magnitude of the outcome, to be fair."},{"startTime":1759.478,"endTime":1762.838,"body":"So some outcomes are very, very bad."},{"startTime":1762.158,"endTime":1774.098,"body":"But, you know, if you consider the bias of resulting where we judge things based on the outcome versus the input,"},{"startTime":1774.158,"endTime":1779.098,"body":"I think good outcomes from bad systems can be very, very dangerous."},{"startTime":1779.458,"endTime":1783.398,"body":"Because they lead us to a path of pat ourselves on the back."},{"startTime":1783.538,"endTime":1784.978,"body":"We're brilliant."},{"startTime":1784.118,"endTime":1785.558,"body":"We're great."},{"startTime":1785.558,"endTime":1790.518,"body":"And we are very rarely curious about why we had those successes."},{"startTime":1790.198,"endTime":1796.518,"body":"So i'm willing to bet at some point i could probably hit a major league league pitch um"},{"startTime":1796.518,"endTime":1803.878,"body":"do i put down the bat and go i figured it out or did i just get lucky? You know the bat"},{"startTime":1803.878,"endTime":1810.218,"body":"happened to make kind of the ball hit the bat rather than the bat hitting the ball so so i think if if you"},{"startTime":1810.218,"endTime":1818.178,"body":"have a good system or more importantly a well-defined system that gives you a bad outcome"},{"startTime":1818.178,"endTime":1822.438,"body":"I think there's two things you get curious about on the bad outcome."},{"startTime":1822.178,"endTime":1825.438,"body":"One, was it just natural variation? Right."},{"startTime":1825.178,"endTime":1830.438,"body":"I'm going to do this a hundred times and I'm not going to connect with a baseball every time."},{"startTime":1830.178,"endTime":1832.438,"body":"And so sometimes you get bad outcomes. Right."},{"startTime":1832.178,"endTime":1838.438,"body":"I recently working with someone who they if you go look at everything they did,"},{"startTime":1838.178,"endTime":1839.438,"body":"it's kind of like, yeah, that was all the right things."},{"startTime":1839.178,"endTime":1846.438,"body":"And then they still lost a sale at the end because of this wild aberration of circumstances."},{"startTime":1846.818,"endTime":1853.038,"body":"Okay. That doesn't mean you change what you do. So that's one thing."},{"startTime":1853.818,"endTime":1860.038,"body":"The other is that, well, the system was well-defined but not good because it did produce a bad outcome."},{"startTime":1860.818,"endTime":1865.038,"body":"And then we go back and define or fix the system."},{"startTime":1865.238,"endTime":1871.658,"body":"So the way I'd rephrase the question a bit is, well, I'd rather have a well-defined system"},{"startTime":1871.238,"endTime":1876.658,"body":"that produces a bad outcome because then I can go back and adjust the system as needed"},{"startTime":1876.238,"endTime":1885.658,"body":"to get better outcomes rather than be falsely convinced of my superiority in the success."},{"startTime":1885.998,"endTime":1893.978,"body":"You're reminding me, I was kind of chuckling, the old expression, even a blind squirrel can find a nut sometimes."},{"startTime":1893.878,"endTime":1897.738,"body":"And, you know, to then think, hey, yeah, I can survive the winter."},{"startTime":1897.898,"endTime":1904.758,"body":"I'll find the occasional nut versus having a good system to find and prepare."},{"startTime":1904.298,"endTime":1905.558,"body":"So much more effective."},{"startTime":1905.558,"endTime":1916.298,"body":"Okay, so this leads to that third role of a leader as one who shapes the problem-solving process in general."},{"startTime":1916.278,"endTime":1923.058,"body":"And helping people recognize that if it's just a Band-Aid, just use a Band-Aid."},{"startTime":1923.498,"endTime":1929.138,"body":"In other words, if it's simply on empty, go and fill it up."},{"startTime":1929.138,"endTime":1938.358,"body":"We don't need to go through extensive week-long sprints and re-evaluation and all sorts of just fix it"},{"startTime":1938.138,"endTime":1944.358,"body":"versus something more complex, something unknown, something that hasn't happened before."},{"startTime":1944.658,"endTime":1946.978,"body":"It has lots of implications."},{"startTime":1946.798,"endTime":1954.678,"body":"How does a leader know how to best match the process to the nature of the problem correctly?"},{"startTime":1954.858,"endTime":1962.518,"body":"Because that, if it's not done well, of course, can produce all sorts of unnecessary work and waste."},{"startTime":1962.438,"endTime":1973.418,"body":"Yeah, so I think the one thing you can do that you have to start with yourself for is put the problem into context."},{"startTime":1973.238,"endTime":1981.758,"body":"And understand, you know, how bad is it? How critical is it? How much does speed matter?"},{"startTime":1981.238,"endTime":1984.758,"body":"How important is success or what's a success look like?"},{"startTime":1984.238,"endTime":1994.758,"body":"So just to overextend your squirrel analogy, if the leader of the squirrels said, we need a system to go find every nut."},{"startTime":1994.258,"endTime":1999.358,"body":"And then you build it and you're like sometime in February, you're OK, now we're ready."},{"startTime":1999.738,"endTime":2003.198,"body":"And we're like, well, we're too late. It's too late."},{"startTime":2003.198,"endTime":2008.238,"body":"What we actually needed was only this many nuts and we needed it by November."},{"startTime":2008.878,"endTime":2013.158,"body":"Right. And because the context says winter's coming."},{"startTime":2013.078,"endTime":2021.278,"body":"And so being a recovering engineer myself, this is an example of, will a team over-engineer,"},{"startTime":2021.078,"endTime":2024.278,"body":"over-design, seek perfection when that's not what we need?"},{"startTime":2024.618,"endTime":2030.798,"body":"And can a leader draw them back from that and define a different finish line for them?"},{"startTime":2030.598,"endTime":2035.918,"body":"So we have to understand enough about the nature of the problem."},{"startTime":2035.918,"endTime":2038.718,"body":"So I'll give another example of that."},{"startTime":2038.138,"endTime":2042.918,"body":"You might have a problem that feels cross-functional."},{"startTime":2042.918,"endTime":2049.558,"body":"Right. So the problem depends on inputs from other teams and other factors."},{"startTime":2049.558,"endTime":2055.178,"body":"And so then instantly you're thinking, oh, I need to build a cross-functional team."},{"startTime":2055.698,"endTime":2063.518,"body":"But as a leader, you also know that this is our team's number one priority, their team's number 100 priority."},{"startTime":2063.198,"endTime":2067.538,"body":"We're not going to get their attention and we can try all we want."},{"startTime":2067.618,"endTime":2072.158,"body":"It's just not going to happen. And it actually shouldn't happen because they are focused on other things."},{"startTime":2072.478,"endTime":2079.458,"body":"So, what we need to do is we need to redefine the problem around how can we be successful"},{"startTime":2079.478,"endTime":2084.458,"body":"even when we're getting, let's just say, garbage from the other team that we work with."},{"startTime":2084.598,"endTime":2091.338,"body":"And let's be prepared to process garbage and be really good at that."},{"startTime":2091.358,"endTime":2095.978,"body":"So, a good example of this would be an IT help desk."},{"startTime":2095.978,"endTime":2102.758,"body":"An IT help desk gets all kinds of tickets coming at them that are really poorly defined."},{"startTime":2102.758,"endTime":2109.438,"body":"Well can we go teach everybody how to better define their IT problems so that they put"},{"startTime":2109.438,"endTime":2114.798,"body":"good tickets in or do we make the system more flexible and adjustable so we can learn"},{"startTime":2114.798,"endTime":2120.738,"body":"what we need to learn right so that's an example of of what that means so whether it's the front door,"},{"startTime":2120.738,"endTime":2126.558,"body":"do we need a team, do we just solve it on our own, are we trying to compensate for other messes or"},{"startTime":2126.558,"endTime":2131.938,"body":"solve the root cause like, that's sort of the front door we need to define as a leader."},{"startTime":2131.558,"endTime":2138.938,"body":"And again, as I said, the finish line, you know, how good do we need to get to before we can hit launch or move forward?"},{"startTime":2138.238,"endTime":2144.738,"body":"It's so many great ideas to think about. And as you're reflecting on the challenge,"},{"startTime":2144.238,"endTime":2148.738,"body":"I love your extension of the squirrel analogy."},{"startTime":2148.238,"endTime":2155.738,"body":"We can, with all due respect to Jim Collins, sometimes great is the enemy of good enough."},{"startTime":2155.238,"endTime":2162.738,"body":"And we don't need perfection in every system we create. You know, that minimal viable product idea."},{"startTime":2162.238,"endTime":2165.738,"body":"Let's get something in place and iterate from there."},{"startTime":2165.738,"endTime":2166.318,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2166.658,"endTime":2174.458,"body":"Especially in a fast-changing world, it's like, well, it could be perfect for like five minutes, right?"},{"startTime":2174.778,"endTime":2178.618,"body":"And so I've recently been writing on this a little bit more around supply chains."},{"startTime":2178.438,"endTime":2183.298,"body":"Supply chains used to be all about optimization in a stable environment."},{"startTime":2183.858,"endTime":2188.858,"body":"I don't think – I think we're going to be long-term in an unstable environment."},{"startTime":2188.858,"endTime":2195.338,"body":"Nothing to do exclusively with COVID, but we saw dock workers strike and floods and all sorts of reasons."},{"startTime":2195.338,"endTime":2201.778,"body":"And so don't design for optimal because it's going to be optimal for like an hour."},{"startTime":2201.958,"endTime":2207.098,"body":"So that's one of those reasons that perfection shouldn't be pursued."},{"startTime":2207.358,"endTime":2209.658,"body":"Yeah, that's fantastic."},{"startTime":2209.658,"endTime":2216.938,"body":"And so as we're kind of wrapping up here around this topic of helping leaders solve problems,"},{"startTime":2216.658,"endTime":2218.938,"body":"let's do a quick Lightning Round here."},{"startTime":2222.238,"endTime":2228.038,"body":"Here's a question for you, and you could kind of briefly answer it. What comes top of mind for you, Jamie?"},{"startTime":2228.238,"endTime":2232.038,"body":"And the question is, what is that one thing?"},{"startTime":2232.238,"endTime":2239.038,"body":"What is the one thing that leaders need to pay attention to to help them be able to solve problems"},{"startTime":2239.238,"endTime":2245.038,"body":"effectively as a leader with their organizations? What would you say?"},{"startTime":2245.698,"endTime":2248.158,"body":"I'd say be conscious of your role."},{"startTime":2248.078,"endTime":2250.618,"body":"Am I the sponsor?"},{"startTime":2250.158,"endTime":2251.198,"body":"Am I an advocate?"},{"startTime":2251.678,"endTime":2253.058,"body":"Am I the director?"},{"startTime":2253.298,"endTime":2254.898,"body":"Am I the owner?"},{"startTime":2254.078,"endTime":2256.818,"body":"Am I the coach?"},{"startTime":2256.358,"endTime":2258.778,"body":"And if you get clear with your role,"},{"startTime":2258.778,"endTime":2260.338,"body":"you can be more effective in whatever role you decide"},{"startTime":2260.338,"endTime":2264.578,"body":"rather than ambiguous in all of them."},{"startTime":2264.198,"endTime":2266.938,"body":"Yeah, that's a great response."},{"startTime":2266.338,"endTime":2268.138,"body":"So it helps clarify that."},{"startTime":2268.518,"endTime":2271.538,"body":"So we've been chatting with Jamie Flinchbaugh."},{"startTime":2271.758,"endTime":2275.418,"body":"His book \"People Solve Problems“"},{"startTime":2275.418,"endTime":2281.198,"body":"it's a great, great read a lot of nuggets and a lot of the conversation we've had today pulls from"},{"startTime":2281.198,"endTime":2286.238,"body":"that and i have to to shout out the fact that you have some little cartoon diagrams in there"},{"startTime":2286.238,"endTime":2293.338,"body":"which i for me as a reader whose brain is always going a million places it helps keep me"},{"startTime":2293.338,"endTime":2297.518,"body":"focused in there so thank you for adding those in for learners like me."},{"startTime":2297.338,"endTime":2298.518,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2298.338,"endTime":2302.518,"body":"Where can people get a hold your book and learn more about some of this,"},{"startTime":2302.518,"endTime":2304.578,"body":"some more about this topic."},{"startTime":2304.058,"endTime":2310.018,"body":"Well, the easiest way to get the book is on Amazon. We have, you know, paperback, Kindle,"},{"startTime":2310.338,"endTime":2315.378,"body":"audio book, we kind of released all at the same time. And they can also go to JFlinch,"},{"startTime":2315.378,"endTime":2322.558,"body":"where they can, you know, read, read more of my stuff. And, you know, learn about the podcast,"},{"startTime":2322.678,"endTime":2327.258,"body":"the book, other things like that. So they can find me at jflinch.com."},{"startTime":2327.478,"endTime":2334.338,"body":"This is fantastic. Jamie, it's been a pleasure to have you here to talk about how leaders can solve problems"},{"startTime":2334.478,"endTime":2337.338,"body":"on the Leadership Growth Podcast. Thank you so much."},{"startTime":2337.858,"endTime":2339.638,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"startTime":2339.438,"endTime":2345.258,"body":"Absolutely. And all to our listeners, thank you for joining us at the Leadership Growth Podcast here today."},{"startTime":2345.438,"endTime":2352.258,"body":"We welcome you to join a future episode, to like and subscribe, and we look to have you join in the future."},{"startTime":2352.438,"endTime":2355.258,"body":"All the best on your leadership journey. Take care, everyone."},{"startTime":2355.258,"endTime":2356.258,"body":"Thank you."}]}