SHF Podcast, Season 2, Episode 8- Spiritual Surrender and True Health with Dr. Mark Hoch

This Sovereign Heart Frequency Podcast episode features hosts Katherine Finley and Miriah Feehery speaking with Dr. Mark Hoch, an integrative physician who bridges conventional medicine with spiritual healing. Dr. Hoch holds both an MD and a Master's of Divinity in Spiritual Ministry, with extensive training in Sufi healing traditions over three decades. He explains how he was drawn to Sufism through mystical poetry and emphasizes finding common truths across Western religious traditions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Dr. Hoch offers a complementary perspective on health that expands beyond conventional medicine's focus on treating symptoms. He describes health as our birthright, guided by innate healing forces that can be felt through osteopathic work as "the Breath of Life" or "Primary Respiration." His integrative approach involves listening to the body's wisdom and addressing blocks - whether physical, emotional, or spiritual - that may prevent natural healing processes. 

The conversation explores the Sufi concept of "fanaa" (spiritual annihilation), which involves releasing false beliefs and misconceptions to reach deeper truth and divine unity. Dr. Hoch connects this to current global transitions, suggesting we're in a time of accelerated spiritual growth where truth becomes more apparent. He emphasizes practicing presence, heart-centered discernment, and the concept of "tawba" (return/repentance) as ways to navigate challenges while maintaining connection to truth and community. His approach demonstrates how medical expertise and spiritual wisdom can work together to support healing on multiple levels.

Find Mark at https://markhochmd.com/

Find Katherine at https://sovereignheartcoaching.com/

Find Miriah at https://www.wholebeingcounseling.com/

Transcript

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Welcome to the Sovereign Heart Frequency Podcast. I'm Katherine Finley with Sovereign Heart Coaching and I'm here with my co host Miriah Feehery of Whole Being Counseling. We recognize that we're living through an intense time on our planet. There seems to be more polarization and division and less connected communication than ever before. We are here to change that. We intention to hold conversations in a container of love and authenticity. We believe that when humans come together from a heart centered place, we can not only understand one another, but we can get creative together, solving problems we couldn't solve alone. It's time to reimagine and rebirth a new world in which everyone's authentic voice is included in the harmonic orchestra of human voices, to create a world that works for all of us. Thank you for being part of this conversation, we're excited to have you. Hi everyone, this is Katherine Finley and I'm here with my co-host Miriah Feehery of the Sovereign Heart Frequency Podcast. And we are really excited to have our friend Dr. Mark Hoch with us here today. He's going to bring perspectives from a lot of different angles on, a lot of the things that are themes in our podcast. And Dr. Mark Hoch is a pioneering physician who bridges conventional medicine with spiritual healing and integrative health. He holds both a doctor of medicine from the University of Pittsburgh and a Master's of Divinity and Spiritual Ministry, and healing from the University of Sufism, reflecting his unique integration of medical science and spiritual wisdom. As a founding diplomat of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine and former president of the American Holistic Medical Association, Dr. Hoch has been at the forefront of integrative medicine for over three decades. His spiritual education includes extensive training in Sufi Healing Traditions, completing a three year certification program in spiritual healing and Sufi studies, followed by 20 intensive programs, totaling 60 days of formal training in Sufi, spiritual healing. Dr. Hoch's integrative approach encompasses osteopathic medicine, energy healing, qigong, and spiritual healing modalities. He served as faculty at multiple medical schools and has been a sought after speaker on holistic medicine presenting at conferences worldwide. Based in Asheville, North Carolina, he continues to practice integrative family medicine while teaching and mentoring others in the art of spiritual healing, embodying the synthesis of medical expertise and mystical wisdom that defines his life's work. So Mark, thank you so much for being on with us today. We're really honored to have you. And anything you wanted to add to that introduction before we get started? Oh, great. Yeah. Thank you for having me on and uh, yeah, it's great to be with you and to know both of you and be in the community with you. Hmm. Yeah, and I can add other pieces, um, I guess as they become relevant, you know, and so I mentioned in the introduction you have a lot of experience in the integrative health field and in the spiritual field, specifically in Sufism. And I'm wondering a lot of our listeners. I probably have an idea of, the integrative health pieces, but I wondered if you could explain a little more the Sufi tradition, that you're a part of, and how that came about for you, you feeling drawn to that. Sure. So most people probably when they think of Sufism, they think of the two major poets, um, and Rumi and there are several others too. You know,'cause they, they've had quite a bit of exposure, in the West with people translating their, their poetry, that was one of my, connections there. And, you know, the kind of, the way that path unfolded for me, I've always, sort of, you know. Been aware of the spiritual realm, you know, and so, and sometimes it just became more obvious to me, probably when I, you know, was in my twenties as opposed to when I was a kid. And so, you know, I was actually, I was raised Jewish and I, so I have a pretty good understanding, of the Torah. I don't claim to be an expert, in what's more called the Old Testament. And then, you know, living in a basically Christian society, you know, a lot of friends that I've studied, a fair amount of Christianity, including a lot of the, the mystical parts of it. So, you know, to me it's all like one. All those Western traditions, which Islam came later, but to me they're all part of the same stream, and it's like the same consciousness. And when you look back or forward, you know, in Christianity, frequently referencing, the Old Testament, like right now I'm reading a book, about the, the details of the book of Daniel and the mystical experience of Daniel as, as a prophet. And so, you know, the author is constantly going back, old Testament, new Testament, comparing text and things. And if You look for the, the similarities,'cause this is one thing I that I always do, and I think this ties in 20 of your previous podcasts with, with truth eye is, you know, is trying to be in the truth. And what I would call the real, you know, is that, um, if we look for the common themes and the things that are consistently working overtime where it doesn't matter. You know, the religious context, the social context, even the time on the calendar was 5,000 years ago, last year, 10 years ago. You know, when the principles that are always working are the ones that I, that I strive to live by. Mm-hmm. So, one of my colleagues who's, who's a medical doctor, I, Robert Jaffe, ran into him like 1999 at a conference at Omega Institute, which some people know about in New York. They have a lot of, you know, health programs and spiritual programs. So I did a workshop with him and then hadn't seen him for a while. And then I moved to Minnesota, right after nine 11. Like I was in New York City on nine 11. And then one of my friends who I'm still very close with, pat Ward, had a lot of people come, super teachers coming into town. I went to all his workshops and some of them I knew and I was like. This is great. One of'em was Dr. Laird, who was, is a pioneering holistic doctor here in Asheville. And then one day the, a bunch of people were like, we're gonna Chicago to see seedy our teacher. Do you wanna come with us? I'm like, sure. So we pile in the car, um, and we arrived in Chicago. There's people from all over the country, a few people from, you know, around the world to meet this, this teacher who, was actually the head of the Council of SuPM in, Jerusalem. And he was the major spiritual leader at, LaLone Mosque in Jerusalem also. And so I just remember sitting down like in the third or fourth row, you know, even before he started talking, it felt like I was being literally hit by a fire hose. And I couldn't understand how that much energy can come out without my chair getting blown out, like the back of the room. That's how intense it was, you know? And then I looked at him and he starts talking to the whole group, and whenever I, try to like meet his gaze, it would kind of turn off and then he would look at something and then it would turn back on again. So I said, okay, this, I knew it was right. So that's how it started and how I really got connected with him. And I can say more later. Yeah. So, yeah. And recap what you were saying in the beginning that I was feeling in my body as you were saying it, that, truth is we could say, some people say God is truth. And when we get down to the basic truths of at least Christianity, Judaism, Islam, there's, these pieces in common that have really resonated with you. And I know Sufism really speaks to experiencing God's love directly and it feels like a very heart-based, tradition. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. And, we talk about, tasting, you know, in state. So yeah, absolutely. It's very experiential and I find with anything I'm doing, whether it's like, I also do a lot of osteopathic medicine in my office, which requires a lot of sensing with the hands and feeling movements in the body with the organs. And you know, it is like when we're fully embodied with something, it's a very different knowing than it is a mental, knowing. The mental part is important, but it's not the whole thing. So what I love about, this podcast and, you and Miriah is like, yeah, I'm a totally heart-based person. And one thing that might be helpful to say about that, this is a Sufi thing, but also a bio geometry thing. And one of my other teachers, IREM Kareem, who's from from Egypt, he's an engineer and architect and he understands all sacred geometry to like the highest level of everybody I've met anywhere. But he's, it's interesting. He's also a Sufi, but one of the principles is the center of anything connects you to the center of everything. Hmm. And the center of the human being is the heart. Um, you know, spiritually it's that way. But even if you look at the physical center of the body, you know, we talked about the chakra systems, the seventh chakra, what's the middle chakra? Right? And even the chakras above and below it, it's still, no matter how you slice and dice it, it's still the center. Chakra. So that's another doorway in, and that's what I love about the heart. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. I love what you just said. In fact, we just recorded a, a podcast on heart healing prayers. And I referenced that knowledge that was also, discussed by Dan Winter, who might have heard it from that teacher you referenced. But he also is, he's a physicist and a researcher in his own right. So he might have discovered that, our heart center is connected to the Galactic Center and the center of, like you said, of all things. And there's that. Almost magic portal inside of all of us to find that unity, that connection. I'd love to hear more about how sup and bio geometry and your wisdom of the, the human body, helps you to work with that truth. Yeah. Okay. One of the ways, and, you know, it just takes, the practice of discernment in the heart,'cause it's not a place that we were necessarily taught about so well by our parents or certainly the school system that we grew up in, you know, and even, even anywhere in the medical training that I had. Uh, and to me it's very similar to, the discernment in the mind or how do we. Evaluate factual things that you know, that are in the physical world around us. And I think, truth, I again spoke well to that point where we want to take all the evidence, weigh it out, and check it. Is it working? Is it not working? And it's very much the same with our intuition. And the heart, I think the, in intuition is one of the faculties of the heart. And that's something I studied quite a bit. Some people might know Carolyn Mace, I did a six day workshop with her and Norm Sheley, who's the founding president of the Holistic Medical Association, went down to Norm's Farm, I think it was 1990, and did a six day workshop with them. And, studied with Laura Alden Cam, who's a really good friend of mine for the last 30 years also, and intuitive practices. But, you know, we have to practice that and then keep checking it. To what's going on. So what, you know, what's our experience? And it was a colored bypass experience. And is it more of an emotional thing versus a intuitive or spiritual thing? Because there it's like different layers of our being and sometimes we can get caught in, in the lesser or incomplete part of it and think that's the whole truth. So I think it's a great practice, to work on that discernment and then keep checking was our our hit on something correct or not? You know, is that really what's going on?'cause sometimes it will be, and other people either gaslight us or not believe it and we have to stay true to that. And other times we'll get caught in some past emotional experience and be afraid or overly happy about it.'cause it reminds something good in the past, which may not be relevant to what's happening in the moment here. And it can. Lead us astray, you know, in either one of those, directions. So, so to me that's the key is experiential learning which takes time. And then, honing our discernment. Could you say a little more about that, mark? You know, I think of sovereignty. big piece of sovereignty is, as you said at the beginning of the podcast, like being in reality, standing in reality rather than our assumptions or what we wanna see or what we wish we could see, right? But being in reality. So then we can be in choice. And you know, Miriah and I, with sovereign heart frequency, we wanna be in choice from that sovereign hearted place. But what are some of your practices or maybe how do you guide your clients to get there to be in what's real? To see what's real, and then to what also be in the heart. As we, move forward in life. Right. And I really liked the way you put that this sovereignty piece of the heart piece and I think that's probably, why we jive so well coming from the same place. Um, yeah. How do I, I mean, there, there are a lot of practices I could go into to some degree, you know, to do that. From a Sufi perspective, we talk about breaking our pictures, which is like, what kind of our first perception of what we think is going on or want to see it's going on. And it's checking that, you know, with the real, so one of the practices we have is we either using a divine name or we call it the divine qualities there in soup is like 99 even. But of course it's infinite, you know?'cause it's, if God is everything, then why limit it to 99, but there's 99 major ones. And so, it's going into practice where you just might say it out louder in your heart over and over again. Either for a set number of times. Each one might have a particular, number. Because you Know, just bringing back truth again, he talked about the obelisk, and the six and the five and what's manifest and what's hidden and the each number has a function. It's not really a magic thing. But sometimes that the number of helps. Other times, you know, we'll do practices where we have an all night prayer thing which usually starts at sundown and you might. Do one practice a thousand times and another one a thousand times, and, the group that could be five people or a couple hundred people. So it's really powerful, when you're all doing it together. So that's, that's one inner thing. And then the other thing for me, guiding others is also paying attention to all the information that's available. So I had somebody I was working with yesterday, who went through something, this person who's in their sixties went through something when they were 18 that they thought was a really, bad choice spiritually and still kind of working through it and, and letting them go through their process. But then like, okay, what else is going on? What else is God making with this? And if the person was able to tune into God's complete forgiveness for. What they did. And then it really helped them to be able to wash their own self-judgment and what other people think about it. And this person is very devout Christian. It's like, I know Jesus talks about complete forgiveness but are you totally there? Are you living it? You believe it in your mind, but as you're living it in your body? And it was great'cause she was able to take it in and was wash the places in her being in her, in her physical body where she was having pain, to take that in. And part of that was the trust that we had built over several years of working together, but also helping her trust in her own, knowing what she's already, did a really good job in her life working on, Hmm, what a beautiful story. And really shows how you work with. The true meaning of holistic, a holistic way. Body, mind, and spirit. Yeah. And it was interesting'cause it was like, you know, we, we were gonna, work with back pain and leg pain, and then she had the realization that some of this was connected and brought that up at the beginning of the session. Yeah. I'm having an image as you talk about these practices of, you know, the human, we exist in this little world with our perceptions and our lenses, but that's within the larger divine truth. And if we can shatter those limited perceptions and reach that, or tap into that, whether it's through collective prayer or, individually, through our hearts, but if we can tap into that larger truth, there's all this healing to be had. Yeah. And I think that captures that idea of the breaking the picture, you know, it's either false or, or even if it's true, like in this case I just mentioned, it's limiting, you know? It's true, but it's not the whole truth. And I, you know, I love that, you know, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I mean, we even have that in our legal system in the United States if we're following it. So how would you define what real health is from your spiritual perspective and your perspective as an integrative doctor? What is true health? Yeah, true health. Obviously I'm still, exploring to get to the, the fullness of it. But it might help to back up a little bit, in our quote unquote healthcare system, in the west in particular, but especially in, in the United States. I think it's helpful to understand that what we're doing here is really not very little to do with health. And even the name of the, the medical tradition, I think speaks to it, it's called allopathic medicine. Okay. And so what does that mean? You know, it means opposite, like allopathic means opposite suffering, so it's. When you look at it, there's absolutely no concept of health. When I, I went to medical school, they showed us how everything functions, right properly in the body we call physiology, you know, embryology, how we develop. But it was, it was always just like, well, this is just kind of what's going on. As opposed to, you know, this is the healthy blueprint for life. And then the therapeutics were, are all about, going against what you don't want. Okay. So, think about it, antibiotic, anti-hypertensive, antidepressant, beta blocker, alpha blocker, serotonin uptake, inhibitor, you know, everything's a blocker inhibitor. You know, because somehow that's gonna fix everything. If, if all you're doing is, you know, blocking it. So to flip it to the spiritual thing, and then I'll get back to the health, is what I like to tell people is. You know, if you wanna get to the promised land first, you have to know it exists. Second of all, you have to have some idea where it is. And, and then the third thing is you have to know the path of how to get there. And so, going back to sup is like, one of the things we say is the, the only person who doesn't arrive is the person who doesn't walk. So we talk about our spiritual path as walk, just walking the path to the divine. And so that's really important. And then the other thing that I like to point out to people is, the blueprint for health, it's our birthright. You know, our parents got together, you have a sperm and an egg and boom. And then okay, we have a developing life in the mother's womb. And, and you know, it's interesting'cause energetically the most complete. Organ besides the heart is the womb, from all the energetic principles, which makes sense. You know, it's like that's where life is. Mm-hmm. And that's where it's growing. So we have that in us, and then those forces generate our body and then they're the exact same forces that are regenerating it, whether we get sick or injured or even keep generating it after we're born till we reach, you know, physical maturity or whatever you want to, you know, call it. And, and I think spiritually those forces are still there, constantly able to guide us if we'll just pay attention to'em and allow them to operate. And that's one of the ways I help people understand that is when I'm working osteopathically we're working with, with the osteopaths called the Breath of Life or Primary Respiration, which is actually a movement that starts in the nervous system and the brain and that movement is still sending the force out. To the, the fingertips and the toe tips and back, and it's constantly, and you can, and the same thing in each organ. You can feel the movement and it's very measurable, like very obvious. You can train a five-year-old to feel the movement of, let's say the liver. It's not, it's not a esoteric thing. And these things, you can even measure the brain movements and see them even though they're subtle. So, you know, it's like helping people tune into that. And when I'm working, people say, how'd you know where to go there? I said, well, your body is doing that. And all I'm doing is listening, to your body. And that's even an, it's interesting because that's even an osteopathic term. They, they call it listening even though using your hands, feeling, sensing no wing fingers, and then what order the body's working in and exactly which place the body is working. And then if I go there and just let it unwind, I. It'll take care of itself. And you go to the next thing and then the next one and the, and it it like the next step in the road and the next step in the road. And then that, to me, that's, you know, how we facilitate healing that way. And then, you know, briefly, same thing. You know, we have to eat good food, breathe good air, and ideally want to be around good people and, and the right community that's all gonna foster, nurture, these things that are already inside of us so they can blossom into the fullness of who we are. And so does it feel like, you know, there's these ideas of what we can do to make ourselves healthy, but it sounds like you orient towards the body has a self-healing mechanism, it knows how to do this. We might just need to clear some blocks out of the way, whether that's toxic food or energetic emotional blocks to allow the body to do what it knows how to do inherently. Is that. Does that make sense? Yeah. And it'll guide us there, you know, whatever you wanna call it, the essential halt, the breath of life. Uh, you know, the Sufi term is Vitra, that's pretty much translation of it. There's other words. it guides us, and it helps us, figure stuff out that we, our mind can't figure out. And I, I feel incredibly blessed to not only study so many things, but have just incredible teachers in so many different areas, you know? And then, having the foresite to both listen to them and, and follow the wisdom and then also, to pay attention to what's going on.'cause then I learn, discover new things just from being on the path and, and paying attention as I'm walking down the road. Yeah. Hmm. So I'm with you at that. And it's like, yeah, we have to take care of things just like your, even your car. You gotta put the right gasoline in it, or the right electrical charge in it, or the right, whatever, you know, to make it so it can run properly., I'm really hearing in that the body as wisdom, and I'm wondering if you could share with our listeners ways to start tapping into that when they, maybe they're not in Asheville and can't be one of your patients, or, they don't necessarily have access to that kind of, holistic health practitioners, but what are some ways that people can start to tap into that wisdom? On their own with their own bodies. Yeah. Some of that tapping in is just slowing down, you know, letting the, the chatter and fall away, you know, and I think all the meditation traditions speak to that. I don't care whether it's, you know, Buddhist or, uh, tic or Western or, you know, part of, it's making some quiet time and in a way investing in ourselves,'cause, we're worth it. And their health is like super critical.'cause you know, a lot of people don't value it until they lose it. So just making some quiet time and then just partly seeing what your priorities are and, and pay attention to bodily sensations, whether it's hunger or need to go to sleep or just to take a rest or something's hurting and what, you know, what's going on. Those are some of the really simple, mindful things that we can always do in any moment. I think that's a great place to start. Yeah. Sometimes the most powerful or the most simple for sure. And we forget to do them. Yeah. And then, you know, just when we need, help or we're not sure. It's like, try to find the best person in your orbit who can help you out. I have a very big toolbox. There's a lot of things I do, but when I, you know, either know somebody knows more than I do or can help the person better than I, for example, this morning I woke up to somebody with a broken hip, you know, and it's like, alright, they definitely need to see an orthopedic surgeon today, from the emergency room. You know, I know a lot about that, but you go see the, the orthopedic surgeon'cause they're gonna put your hip back together and you'll be able to walk and, get better.'cause that's the thing that you need. And so as best we can do that and learn and actually learn the resources in our community, and sometimes that's just checking out the health food store, checking out whatever, or, you know, your friend or your sister or brother, husband, wife, whatever knows somebody who's helped them with something. Maybe that's a good place to start on that, that issue with your health. Mm-hmm. And going back to something you said earlier, reorienting the way I. That it sounds like you help your patients do reorienting the way you think about health rather than, it's not just the absence of disease, but what practices, what support do I need to live a really vital, heartfelt, vibrant life if that's what someone's looking for. Of course. Yeah. And right. And that's how we, just like any other project I think we try to accomplish in our life what makes us successful? You know? And then, it's a lot of what I've learned because I've been a doctor for like, it's kind of weird, but like 35 years or something. But even in the medical field, it's called medical practice, you know, you're just practicing in that sense all the time. But it's like. Practice makes perfect. And on one level and another level is any goal we have there, there's always something, you know, we have to plan. You're making breakfast, you have to take out the ingredients for your breakfast. You have, if you're cooking, you have to turn the stove on or turn the fire on. You have to do all these things so you can have a good meal. And it, it is, some of these things just take longer. It's a longer process than just, you know, I wish it was just making breakfast and everything was fine, but doesn't always work that way. And our body is a guide. Our body is our guide. Yeah. And we guidance from other places as well, but tuning into the body as guide, there's so much wisdom there to lead us. Where we need to go for health. Yeah, I think, that's really key. And you know, you're kind of pointing to your heart when you say that. And, and then when we get to the deeper things and the spiritual things that, you know, if, if we can learn how to be in the heart and be in the center being connected to the truth and the real, we're gonna get a much better answer than if we're trying to figure it out. Just using our mind, you know, again, it's just a tool. Like, I had somebody I saw recently too, who was in pain for five weeks and then we did a osteopathic treatment and they were doing much better. And then I got this email what about this and this, this part that it doesn't match up. And my answer was, you know, your mind is not the healer in this case. Like, just forget about it. You're already so much better, so fast. Let the process go. Just be with the unfolding. And, you know, we have to a lot of times just get out of our own way.'cause sometimes we're our own worst, inhibitor. Absolutely. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Mark, can you speak about your experience or your perspective on the body with disease, illness, suffering and how you've witnessed or learned the connection between that and the psychoemotional spiritual aspect of our being? Yeah, absolutely.'Cause one of the ways that a lot of these things manifest, you know,'cause the body's the densest level of our, our being. And if sometimes, especially if we're not aware of or addressing these things at, the more esoteric or sublime levels, whether it be the spirit, you know, the mind, the emotions, it'll precipitate out and become a very dense physical problem. And, and then I see sort of my job. When people come to see me is to help them figure out where, in the matrix, where in the spider of where in those levels of their being, the core issue is or, or the, the illness, if you want to call it, or the dis disease, what's, you know, what's not at ease and in the flow, of the divine or in, or in their essential wellness. And very often it will manifest as a physical, symptom. Sometimes like reflux, or esophageal reflux or heartburn comes from people overanalyzing life. You know, that's kind of a Chinese concept. They call it pensiveness, you know, it reverses the polarity of the digestive organ function. So instead of going down, it goes back up, you know, because the, all the energy's going to the mind processing, you know that it's different than anxiety. Or fear, but, you know, but that's one example. And, there are countless other things. And sometimes, you know, I'll give example of, my late wife Kathy, who wound up having, cancer and, you know, that journey for her was relatively quick. It was just several months. But she was able to use that, to gain an incredibly deep understanding of all the parts of her life and all the pieces that needed to be healed. And even though she didn't live through that experience, she left. This world with unbelievable purity. I don't know. I don't know. I've seen such a transformation, you know, that um, that completely and partly'cause I was just there with it, you know, all steps of the way, you know, and so that way, like an illness, you know, just in that case, it might've just even been an opportunity for her to do that. And, and then when she left, it was like there was no unfinished business with anybody. I saw her with her mother, with her sisters, with her friends, with me, with our daughter. And, in that case, the illness, it might've it not been anything she did wrong, but it was just a catalyst to give her the, the most amazing opportunity, that you can have. And, she just ran with it and, you know, aced it. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I witness similar transformation with my mom and really understand the opportunity in death to kind of accomplish your soul's mission with what little time you have left. If you know you approximately how long you have left, you can really bypass a lot of your ego stories and just get to the core of what matters. Yeah. That brings up something interesting for me, mark, that I'd love to hear your perspective on.'cause I do think sometimes in the holistic health world and with people who are feeling a sense of personal responsibility for their own health, which is a good thing. There can be a, if I'm not where I'm meant to be, then I'm doing something wrong or. I'm missing something. And I hear in your story that our body is giving us messages and there are ways to work with the body towards healing. And sometimes the body is working in a way that's maybe bigger than that understanding as opportunity. Um, and that feels more spiritual. I don't know if you wanna speak more to that. Yeah, that's a great point. And, and again, it's trying to discern at the, at the causal level what's really going on. You know?'cause sometimes somebody just needs to clean up their diet, and sometimes, we're seeing an epidemic of things, let's say, with gut problems and, we know, like let's say glyphosate, it's this drying agent and it's sprayed on a lot of crops. When it gets into our body, it destroys the lining of the gut, and it creates this boundary problem that our immune system gets this regulated, so sometimes there's an environmental thing, somebody's doing something that they shouldn't be doing and somehow it gets sanctioned and allowed to, and that becomes like a whole social thing, maybe even a political thing, which is, which is kind of interesting. But in the meantime, the person may just need to eat organic food and that's one of the things I love about some folks in our community here, with Mother Earth Foods is one example. It's there's so many incredible local organic farmers and raising all kinds of, food for us. And if we just get back to the basics of that, it helps us out and it, but it's really. I trying to figure that out. And then other times that that issue in the gut could be it. This is a nice metaphor.'cause if you think about it, what's in your digestive system is sort of in your body, but it's sort of not in your body. It has to go through this 22 foot long tube from your mouth to the other end. But it's always surrounded by multiple layers of tissue that are keeping it contained in a certain space. Whether it's because it needs to be digested or because the body's not sure there's a boundary there. It's like, is this okay? Is it a parasite? Is there some bacteria that we can't, is this some poison that we need to vomit it out or poop it out? You know, so there's, there's a discernment function, in the whole digestive tract. And I think even in Chinese medicine they, they would put a lot of that on the small intestine, which also, it's interesting, it's paired with the heart in Chinese medicine. So maybe. It's a glyphosate issue or maybe somebody got an infection, but also maybe their discernment or they're letting things into their being that aren't good for them. And if they know that they really need to clean it up, they don't know it. They gotta figure out what it is. I dunno if that this is helpful on that, that level and, but it's, it's still always about which one is it? And it could be all layers simultaneously. Sometimes I see that happens for people as well. And then, the illness or the pain or the dysfunction or the disease, it, it's always an opportunity that's the way I see it. You know, it's the door, the doorway through something or reminds me of Rumi's guest house, you know, and when he talks about just like on some level, like at least not the criminals, but the, you know, these signals letting, lagging them in. You know, you don't like them, but, but let'em in enough to understand, why they're there and what message they're bringing. And then we can help discern, you know, what at what level of our being we need to address it at. And sometimes again, it's multiple, sometimes it, it just, the food, it's a bacterial things. Other times it's an environmental thing. Other times it might be a psychospiritual thing just to use the gut as an example. I do feel that there's more and more folks seeking to broaden their perspective and orient in some of those different ways, like even the German new medicine becoming more popular, that really looks at the emotional causes and, and traumas that have caused symptoms. Like I feel like the world is starting to open up, as far as our perspectives of these different layers that could possibly be causing. Quote symptoms in our body, or should we say, you know, messages that our body's giving us to take a look at something. And then I'm hearing you say, right. And the discernment then can be tricky, but can we get still, can we listen? Can we have good supportive guidance, in our community to help us with that discernment to hear our bodies' messages? Yeah. And that's a good example of the Germany medicine. Other things that are out there, some of them knew, some of them ancient and, and what I would just encourage people,'cause it might sound overwhelming, the best place to start is where you are right now.'cause that's the only place you really can start. You try to be somewhere else that's not gonna work. And then it may be, and it might be simple and it might be an unraveling. So you go through one layer and then like, oh, there's more, you know, how do I address this? What book do I read? What person do I see, who do I talk to? And it becomes a journey, but it also becomes a journey again, with a good destination because you're working towards something that's really valuable and you're doing in a thoughtful, intelligent, but, but also reality based way. And you might need to figure out, through your discernment. There might be many places where you go a little too far to the right, go a little too far to the left, slow down too much, but, that just comes and I don't want people to feel overwhelmed, you know? Start where you are, do your best. Um, and my experience is if we're doing that, we're probably gonna make a lot of progress. And, there's always the, the right timing, which sometimes we wish was now, but it's not. And sometimes we have to be like the, the chickpea in, uh, Rumi Soup pot, you know, where it's like begging like, it's so hot in here. How'd you get out? Then God says, oh, little chickpea, you're not tender enough yet. You have to stand in the pot and cook a little more. That leads into my question that I'm, I'm been looking forward to asking you'cause it feels very personal with some things going on in my life right now that it feels like the big message is. Surrender. Surrender. Surrender. And I was reading about this concept in Sufism called Fauna. Is it Ana Fauna? Ana? Yeah. Ah. Um, which is about spiritual surrender. And so If, if we widen our lens from health to the world, and Miriah and I talk a lot about this really fascinating time. We're in this great turning where it seems like a lot of old systems are collapsing and there's chaos and there's polarization. And I really feel in my heart something new being birthed. But I wonder if you could speak to Fina and how you work with that principal, during this time. Oh, that's great. Yeah. I love that you asked that. Yeah, the concept of fina really, the, the best translation I know is it actually means annihilation. Wow. And in the context of what we're talking about here, it's annihilating everything that's false, every misconception, everything that's not real true, you know, in the, or in the divine order. And, the highest level of walking while you're still alive is in this path is pheno. It's annihilating in the divine so that there's no separation. It's all the unity, and everything that. Is not true, just falls away. You know? And I, I'm working towards that. I, I have a taste of that. I don't claim to hold that station. You know, we talk about states and Station. Station is like, you're there. The state is like, you've tasted it. Mm-hmm. But maybe you're not living there all the time. And it was just beautiful to be around, my teacher because, he was in that place and could access all the realms. And was able to be aware, of what people's needs were. And sometimes it was a little challenging because everyone would be lined up to, you know, to talk with him, at a conference or something. You might only get your one minute. And I usually just got one or two words, not even a couple of of sentences, like, I was dealing with somebody and he was like, do not worry about that. And then he just looks to the next person, yes, beloved, how can I help you? And other times he would sit with people and, you know, and do that. And, and I actually saw him sometimes just the guidance was to take away that whatever the person was dealing with could be really severe and he would almost by the snap of his fingers, it would just be done. It was amazing. But if the person needed to still chew on it and learn from it, you know, then God wouldn't do that.'Cause they had to work with that. So, yeah. And it goes back to this whole thing again about, you know, what's, what's real with a capital R? What's the truth? And my experience is that if, if we're not willing to give up our preferences or. Our belief systems, even when they're not working, just because someone else gave'em to'em, or a friend or, a profession, you know, see that in my, my profession, a lot of people just following what the edicts are from the profession. I'm like, what? You're killing people. Like what? You know, what are you doing? You know, that's wrong. That's the fina, the, the real fina. It's like when we can get to that place and it's the drop Desi, you know, again, it's funny'cause you're, you're just helping me to be, be with my brother Rumi, but it's like, it's the drop falling back into the ocean, you know? It's like, where's the drop? Was it really ever separate? And does it feel like to you that we are in this time on earth, there's a quickening of that, of that? Lesson or that's what it's feeling like in my own life. Like I'm being forced in a way to, to surrender and let go of what's not real and true, even if part of me is kicking and screaming about it. Do you feel that, that there's this, this quickening in humanity of, learning about this, getting back to what's true, what is divine love? Yeah. I, I definitely feel that too. And I think some of the evidence that is all the tumult and, you know, the crazy factionism and that sort of thing, but the flip side, the good part of it is I think as we're called to that and we step into it, it gets easier. And it's also pretty amazing how a lot of the things that are so off base. Even whether they're reported by the government or the media that, you know, it's just becoming more and more obvious to more people that it's not true. Like they're, they're saying this, but it's not true. And then we have to decide if we're gonna go with the truth or go with what's convenient but I do think that opportunity is much more obvious to more people now, and that's very exciting to me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and it also helps us all to move a little fast. Like you use the word quickening. I like that. Cause it's helping us all move in that direction faster than we need to. So I was also reading a about, Rumi wrote about being polished by tribulation, and I loved that. And it really hit home. Because I feel like it's connected to this surrender piece, but speak some to your spiritual understanding of, you know, as we're in this challenging time individually, collectively, how we can maybe frame it as we're being polished by tribulation. This is getting us to divine love, maybe faster than we ever could before. Yeah. That's a great concept. And it's sort of like what do you make of what your experience is and how do you walk with that? How are we with it and what do we do with it? And we can, you know, sometimes feel battered or beaten up or crushed or thwarted. But if we're paying attention, sometimes, you know, we're being thwarted by a. Not so good force that's trying to keep us from the good thing. We have to, be aware of that. And other times we're being thwarted because what we're actually trying to do isn't really the best thing for us. And that's the, you know, a little bit the polished by tribulation. It's like, okay, here's our chance to let the, the difficulty, or, the trial polish us. Because if we learn from it, we're gonna grow from it and be stronger and bigger and more able to deal with the next thing, which could be easier or hard, but we'll be able to deal with it better and more easily, and also be able to be a better example for other people. And I think that's important for anyone in a leadership role and including all parents. You know, then we can be the better example for our children or our students or our friends and colleagues and, you know, family members. And take that opportunity, you know, to get polished.'cause then, right then that's how you become the, the real jewel. And, and that's how you, become the truth. Hmm. I love that. And teaching our kids that challenge. I feel like there's a lot in our culture that's almost protecting kids to not have to have challenge. And it's really showing them through example, that we are polished by our tribulations challenges, shape us and help us grow and help us, come closer to God possibly. And, and they get to see that in this, this time of upheaval. Yeah. It's not a good idea, like to overprotect anybody, including our kids. I mean, there's some, some things we definitely need to do, like, keep'em from falling off the, the portrait, the swimming pool when they're two years old and, and we have to be there as the, the guardrails to some degree. But if we. Overly pamper them, then they're not gonna be, able to, to deal with things. And I think we have incredible examples, in life. And you just look at, you know, I remember, a while ago, looking back to the grim fairy tales. I'm like, who's writing all these scary things for, for kids? What's up with these people? But another level, we also have to know there are some bad actors in the forest, and just because they're there doesn't mean they're good or they're gonna help us. And those lessons are, super important. And it doesn't matter if you're a person or if you're a plant. I mean, there's a, an old adage, strong wind, strong tree. If a tree never meets a storm, when it the first storm meets us, it doesn't matter how big it is, it's probably gonna fall over. Mm-hmm. You know, and we all need that. And challenges help us with that discernment that you've spoken. So much. Yeah. If we can walk with them and Right. You know, even our mistakes, they're great because if we can learn from'em, you know, you could call it a mistake, but it's also really valuable. Mm-hmm. We don't wanna keep repeating them, that that's the problem. Hmm. Mark, could you speak a little more to your views on separation and how that plays into your spiritual life and your professional life in, in whatever ways, feel profound to you? Yeah, that's a, a great question. Separation is an interesting concept.'cause on some levels we do need to separate the wheat from the chaff and what's good and what's not good for us and all that, and, and that I think, is a function of discernment. But on another level, the worst part of separation is, is actually, what might be considered the worst or, or the only unforgivable sin. And, and I think that's a concept in Christianity as well as in, uh, Islamic Sufism. You know, it's like, if we're separating ourselves from, from the divine, from the truth, from our brothers and sisters, from our, communities, from our environment. We're pretty much always going to get into trouble. And if we can't get out of that. It just leads to the ultimate destruction, including of our own being. I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at Miriah, but, what I see in functional groups, like I'm on a national, maybe it's an international, uh, council, like our safety council. And what's beautiful there is when, when problems come up or there's friction between people, people really hold the other person in their heart and they try to work it out, and make it work out. Well work out for everybody, you know, be right for everyone, not just one person or one point of view. And I see in any group that I'm involved with that does that, it turns out well and. When people don't do that and they make separation and they make their idea better than the other person's, or their ideology better than the other person. And you see that like people will be like, oh, this person is so evil because they're part of this, group, whatever. But that same person will allow the same or worse evil if it's coming from someone in their group, then it's okay. And that's not okay. And to me that's part of this idea of separation. Like, we're better than you or separate from you. And that's a great, great point because, if we're not in the unity, you know, again, I love that that analogy of the drop going back to the ocean.'cause we're just one little. Spark of light or ray of light of the divine. But that's what we are, we're a part of that. And we recognize we are a part of the unity. We are the unity, and we get away from the separation. That's when anything can heal and anything can happen and transform no matter how crazy or broken or twisted it is. That that's, that's my experience. Those are the teachings. But I, I find that to be absolutely true. Does that speak to what you're asking? Yeah, definitely. Mark, that resonates so deeply with me, and I'm wondering how you practice that in day-to-day life, this discernment from the heart because it, it feels so right. And then I know it can be easier said than done. But how, how do you practice that or how might you advise. Your patience or our listeners to practice coming from that place. Ooh. Yeah. It's a lot still just being present, in the moment. And honoring other, other people's perspectives and feelings. You know, even we ate a minor thing at breakfast today. My beloved night. You know, it's just like something happened with, uh, you know, somebody broke their hip that I, I was like too loud talking on the phone'cause everyone was all upset about needing surgery, you know, whatever. But it's just like, okay, take care of the thing in the moment and then if something's off, it's to go back, apologize or say, sorry, disrupted. The, the calm of the beginning of the day and, you know, I knew it was not gonna be super quiet, so I also just took the phone and went to another room, you know, to, to be as quiet as possible. That's just a simple example, but, you know, trying to understand what's going on in the moment and doing our best to meet the need, I guess is the first step. But then if something's off, it's going back, returning to doing our best. And if we need to apologize, you know, and, the suby ax that is called tba, which means return, it's like you're off, you return. And that's, I think again, same thing in, in this tradition in Christianity, any saint could be forgiven. Any misdeed, any being off, and the fastest way back to that is to recognize it, admit it, apologize to any, it might just be to God, but it might be to your spouse or your kid or the person at the grocery checkout line or you know, whatever. And I find that really works. You know, when people find it, hear a sincere apology, it gets dropped pretty fast, usually, whatever it was, and that's all we can do. We do our best. And if we're off, we recognize it and we just keep returning back, turning back to the best that we know, or at least the best we can do.'cause sometimes we know better than we can do. And if at least we do the best we can do, you know, we'll get a lot closer to the be to doing the best we know how to do. Mm-hmm. And yeah. And the, the hard part there is, Feeling it more in our entire being not just our mind.'cause a lot of times we think we know what upset the other person or whatever. And, that may or may not be true, we might need to ask them, or we might need to just feel it like we think we're righteous and it's like, well you tune back in your heart like, yeah, I think I hurt that person. Or That wasn't the right thing, or it's still not resolved. You know, in my mind it's resolved'cause I thought I did the right thing, but it's still not resolved. So what do we need to do to, to make it good for everybody, you know? Mm-hmm. And I, and I think our heart is a much better barometer and judge of that than our mind is. And, and again, not to denigrate the mind, but it's just in incomplete. Just any sense is one sense. That's why we have multiple senses.'cause we might not get the answer, from one thing, and this might, I don't know this somehow, this came up a few times in the last couple days, but I, I remember in fifth grade, Mr. Holmberg, our science teacher, he was teaching us about our census. And so he had this box and we had to figure out what was in the box. And then he took five people, one at a time out of the room at the box. And I think each one got to use one scent, with the box. And then when they put the five people together, they agreed that it was, it was a glass of orange juice in a box. Right. You know, one person heard it. They, they had no clue what was going on. One person smelled it. They had a pretty good idea. One person tasted it, they had a great idea. One person saw it, they had a great idea, you know, the other person touched it. At least I knew it was something liquid, a little sticky on the thing. But you put it all together. And then the five people agreed that it was a glass of orange juice. You know, I thought that was funny that I, I keep thinking about it this week, but what a great example. Right, right. You know, put it all together and then, we'll have the better answer instead of just jumping to a conclusion. And again, I find the heart really does work as the best barometer measure of that. It just will feel right or it won't feel right, or it'll feel complete. And then at least we know we have more work to do, even if we don't know exactly what it is. I feel in that example though, we consciousness, the, the unity consciousness that, that all of our truths and perspectives together might get us closer to, what's true. And if we're all one drop in the ocean, right. When we're all together thinking together, we can see, we can see where the ocean, we can see where the, the larger wave. Yeah. Well, thank you, mark. It's about time to wrap up. But anything else you'd like to share before we go? It's been, really beautiful and I feel more centered in my heart, as this conversation's gone on, which I think is really a testament to the energy that you hold and walk with in your life. So very appreciative, but anything else you'd like to share? Just my gratitude for being here with the two of you, on the show and also in the community. We're all in this together. I'm really glad you're doing this podcast, and having all those people on to try to help us all understand each other better and get to the best place and live in the heart. Beautiful. So I'm just grateful. Thank you. Well, thank you. And now your voice is on our podcast, which is an incredible edition, so we're super grateful. Do you wanna give your website or any contact information for our listeners if they wanna get to know more about you? Yeah, my website, um, probably the best thing. It's www dot just my name, M-A-R-K-H-O-C-H, M as in Mary, D as in david.com. And there's information there, some and new things will be going up, including, when to get the link for the podcast and some other things. And I work with people mostly locally, you know, come into the office. I, I also do some consultations, health things or spiritual things, long distance'cause not everybody is in Asheville. And yeah, it's also great to be part of this community and all the good things that are happening here. So Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure. All right. Thanks everyone. We'll see you next time. Okay. Blessings. Take care. Make sure you subscribe, like and share the video for more content!