Manhood Tribes
Become the man God created you to be. Manhood Tribes is all about creating groups of extraordinary men who follow Jesus at every stage of life. Join host Don Ross as we discuss how to tackle the major challenges in men's lives, and how to build a group of men around you to help you be the best man you can be.
Manhood Tribes
Men And The Church ft. Ben Derrick
Join us in the second part of our interview with men's coach and counselor, Ben Derrick. We delve into the current challenges men face in relation to the church, regardless of faith background.
Ben shares his thoughts on how the church often misses the mark in appealing to men, the importance of genuine masculinity, and how Jesus offers everything a man is searching for. This candid conversation explores the themes of connection, curiosity, and personal growth.
Visit manhoodtribes.com/manly to take the 'How Manly Are You?' quiz and gather valuable resources.
00:00 How Manly Are You? Quiz
00:51 Welcome to the Manhood Tribe Show
00:57 Interview with Ben Derrick: Men's Relationship with the Church
01:55 Challenges Men Face in Modern Churches
03:15 The Feminization of Men in Church
06:22 The Church's Focus on Women and Families
11:08 What Jesus Offers to Men
14:49 Developing a Masculine Faith
17:15 Community and Curiosity: Keys to Masculine Growth
19:55 Conclusion and Next Steps
Want to know how you measure up as a man? Take our free quiz, called How Manly Are You? and learn how you can get better at being a man. Download for free at manhoodtribes.com/manly.
Guys want to know how you measure up as a man? I've got a great resource for you. It's called how manly are you? And it's a free quiz that you can take to figure out how you stack up against what it means to be a man. And when you take the quiz, you'll also get some free resources to help you figure out how you can get better as a man in the areas where you would like to grow. So go to manhoodtribes.com/manly to download your free. How manly are you quiz today? That's manhoodtribes.com/manly.
Hi guys, welcome to the manhood tribe show. My name is Don Ross. I'm your host. And today we are going to continue with part two of my interview with Ben Derrick. Ben is a men's coach and counselor, a former pastor and an all around great guy who has an unbelievable amount of wisdom and insight when it comes to the things that men are facing today. And in this part of the interview, we're going to talk a little bit more about men and our relationship to the church. Now, even if you're not a church going man, or come from a faith background, I think you're really going to enjoy this part of the interview. Because as Ben highlights for us, the message that the church is sending to men. I think it's one that all men can relate with. No matter what our faith background looks like, and he's going to help us figure out how we can overcome that message in order to be the men that God has really created us to be. So I hope you're really going to get a lot out of this part of the interview. Let's jump right back in to my interview with Ben Derrick.
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:I want to talk some just about the church and, uh, the church as it relates to men in particular. So.
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:Are you sure?
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:I know this will be fun, yeah. Like what I, what I really want to ask is, you know, when, I mean, when we talk about those kinds of things, like, you know, that what men, one of the things that men really need for being able to kind of face their challenges in the modern world today is connection. Like, it seems like that ought to be a thing that, that, uh, The church is really doing well. Um, and yet at the same time, uh, I know yours and my experience both has been quite the opposite, especially for men. Um, so I just kind of want to ask you, like, what is it that the church is peddling for men? And, and is it adequate for kind of our, you know, present set of circumstances and why or why not? Like, why is what the church offering good or not so good for men today?
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:Wow. Okay. Well, so I'm going to have the conversation we would normally have just the two of us. I'm going to soldier out and I'm going to have this behind microphone because
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:Let's do it.
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:Yeah. Yeah. Like speaking of risk. I've got to put my money where my mouth is and I've got to take the risk because it's worth men being set free from captivity. Um, it, the, the first word that I thought of when you said, what is the church peddling to men? The first word I thought of was feminism. That's what the church is peddling to men. Like the more feminine of a man, you are, the more controllable you are. The more emotional you are, the more cognitive that you are, then the more you're going to be accepted. And I think a lot of this is being perpetrated by men who are in the position of pastor who haven't done their own work. They don't know themselves. They know the story of the Bible, but they don't know the story of their lives. Many of them. Are there some that are making headway in this area? Of course. So I would say if you're one of those pastors watching this, first of all, I'm shocked that you're watching this. Second of all, don't send Don an email. This is Ben's words here. So some people are making progress, but I think predominantly when I look at pastors today, and even as I was one thinking I was being something different, you're within an ecosystem that rewards. Feminine men. I
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:And what, like, why is that? What's that about? Why is the church trying to offer that to men?
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:yeah, that is a great question because, well, I think the first thing that happened is we feminized Jesus. I mean, he's, he's kind of this soft little weak character with the lamb and the stained glass. And when I look at actually how this man's life went, he was Savage. I mean, this guy was wild. He was so committed to the truth and he knew who he was and he was challenging other people at an emotional heart level to engage with their sense of purpose. But what we have determined we're going to do in the church is to turn people into really good citizens. And what's happened today is that's really blown up, especially since COVID, especially in the American political climate. Now we're just fighting about what kind of citizen we're supposed to be, right? So it allows a man. And if he's over feminized and by that, I mean all the things that happened in the church service. I mean, it's very difficult for me these days to watch the way that worship meaning music happens from a stage on a church, but it is so. Emotionally driven and it doesn't match in any way what I see happening in the Bible It's like stirring people up and we've taught ourselves these movements We're supposed to do that show that we're in love with God and I'm like, that's great man But what happens when you put that Taylor guitar down and you've got to do something difficult in your life, right? Uh, this stuff just kind of drives me crazy It's very easy to be practiced too and it's pretty and it's nice. I mean It You don't really want to have people filing into a building that's just full of chaos, right? So we try to control the left and the rights of how these things go and I think the original intent was probably pretty good But we've over corrected these days and that I do not talk Let me just put it this way Eight out of ten men that I talk with and I talk with a lot of them if they're in church They're only there because a female in their life is making them go
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:Yeah.
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:I mean, to me, that's evidence enough that the church is doing something wrong. Why are they doing that? I think because it makes a, it makes for a very clean system. And if I really were to go as far down the rabbit hole as I probably shouldn't, then it helps. It helps create a concentration of wealth because most of our churches are millions and millions of dollars in debt, especially the large one. This is the story behind the scenes, and everyone has to be happy so that we can give money so we can pay the banks that actually own the churches.
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's definitely some truth to that, you know, and I see it in the, um, in the sense of, you know, churches will try to verbally say that they're, they're doing stuff to appeal to men because they feel like if they can win the father in a family, they get the whole family. Like, you know, how many times have I heard that? Countless. Uh, and at the same time, uh, You know, when push comes to shove, the stuff that churches tend to prioritize is actually about winning over the mom. You know, it is, it is dedicated to, like you're saying, creating kind of an emotional experience. Um, the way that they do group settings, uh, tends to cater to the, the social and the emotional felt needs of women. You know, the, the types of groups that churches create are geared towards the ways that women connect with each other, not really the ways that men connect with each other. Uh, and you know, so there's, there's just this, uh, kind of over prioritization of, uh, you know, the way that women are wired and sort of gearing all of the, the content and environments that churches do to the way that women function. Now, look, there's nothing wrong with the way that women function. Um, but when you're. You know, like exactly. Um, but when you're trying to, you know, kind of speak out of one side of your mouth and say that you're trying to appeal to men and then everything you're doing is geared towards women. Uh, it just doesn't make any sense. But I think kind of what you're saying, you know, behind the scenes, the like, Hey, we know that if we get the woman there, we get the kids there. And, uh, as often as not, she's the one paying the monthly bills. And likely to send us, you know, a tithe every month, you know, just those kinds of things. Those are practical needs. And I'm not going to begrudge a church for thinking practically and strategically about, we need to pay our bills too. So, you know, so like, how are we going to do that? Um, there's nothing terribly wrong with that. Uh, it's just the fact that like, Um, the vision of what the church is trying to sell as masculinity isn't really based around masculinity, you know, it's based around what do we do to get people's butts in the seats and our bills paid. And that really has more to do with, uh, women than it does with, you know, what it means to be a man. I was, uh, I was in a church service not too long ago, actually. Um, in or watching, I actually can't remember at this point, but, uh, but I heard it again. I've heard this so many times from pastors. I heard this pastor say, uh, that his vision of, you know, he said a godly man is supposed to be a good husband and a good father. Uh, maybe he said a good husband and a loving father, you know, something like that. And like everything inside of me wants to explode when I hear that phrase.
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:Yeah.
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:there, and let me just say real clearly, there's nothing wrong with being a good husband and a loving father. You know, if you are a husband and if you are a father, you should be those things. Like that's a really good thing to be, but that is not the essence of what a godly man is. You know, I mean, first and foremost, like it leaves out a whole bunch of men who aren't husbands and aren't fathers, you know, like, what does that even mean for you if you don't fall into one of those categories? But again, you know, there's the focus on the church is trying so hard just to appeal to this one set of people who they think can pay their bills and are likely to show up to things because they've got kids and they're trying to do things for their kids. Uh, and it's just, you know, like, that's not the mission of the church. That's not what, what, What we're there for, but because of that, we have sell, we have sold this, uh, you know, kind of, um, less than vision of what it means to be a man. And I think by and large, men aren't buying it, you know, like when, at the end of the day, when I think about what I want to be. As a man, what I want my life to count for. Yes. I want to make a difference in the lives of my family members, but that's not all that I am. That's not all that I want to be. And frankly, I want more mission and adventure in my life than just that. And if that's all that the church has to offer to me, then. I'm bored with church, you know, which is I think what we, what we find with most men who encounter the church, just like you're saying they're there because someone else dragged them to be there. So anyway, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching now instead of, uh, instead of interviewing, but, um, Hey, I'm with you, man. You know, it just, it is, uh, it's an, it's an unfortunate, uh, circumstance, I think because, uh, because here's what, here's what I do want to ask and, and have you speak to. Is because I think there's some real merit here in this question. So, you know, I'm, I'm openly admitting it's kind of a leading question. What do you think Jesus has to offer to men that maybe is different than what the church is offering?
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:Man, that's an emotional question. Uh, Intimacy. That's what Jesus has to offer. Validation. Adventure. Holiness. Peace. Settledness. Risk. Reward. Uh, really the answer is, He has it all to offer. Uh, the church is selling off brand of all of those things. The culture is selling off brand. Way off brand, all of those things. Uh, what does Jesus have to offer? Everything that a man has been looking for his whole life, because Jesus knows the man and Jesus is not concerned about propping up a Western system. Jesus is ultimately concerned about the redemption of the hearts of his children. That's what he has to offer. When I think about Jesus these days, I don't think about. Okay, time to do right, you know, or time to sing the thing or time to say the thing. Uh, I just think, man, thank God you're here. Right. Uh, because even just the ministry of presence with Jesus can take a man. Months down the road in a way that all of those other things that he's been spending on, whether it be the bourbon or the pornography or the voice of his wife or the success, especially athletically here in the South of his Children, what he's offering is an invitation into true masculinity. And here's the most beautiful part about what, what that means is that it's A co creative position. What I mean by that is that it isn't some form of masculinity that's being sold by Harley Davidson or Patagonia or Remington. It's, it's the version of masculinity that he. When he put his mouth over your nostrils, that he was breathing into you, that we will join together and together we will create something beautiful, whatever that looks like. I feel like that's what Jesus is offering that stands in such stark contrast to what the culture is offering. And it's why you see biblically when a man brushes up against Jesus, what does he want to do? He wants to stay. Don't make me leave. Don't go like this guy who is like chained down to this graveyard or not. I mean, you're probably familiar with the story obviously, but like in the most desperate of all circumstances, and then he actually experiences the power of The truest man that's ever been a man and he wants to stay with him Don't make me go. Please like that's not the response we're having from church services We're gripping our cups of coffee until we can get back to our Honda Accord and go back to suburbia and close the garage door Right. It's it's just a it's a stark contrast. I get emotional because quite frankly, I lived for decades Not only as a person who was trying to live off that sustenance, but also trying to push that level of sustenance into other men through the church system. And it just wasn't working. And I've, I've found something different now.
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:Yeah, that's really good. So, okay. So what would you say then, uh, to a guy who's listening, who, uh, maybe would call himself a Christian, maybe, maybe not as a church goer, uh, but you know, has, has been around or danced around this faith message for a long time and, and found it lacking. Um, what would you say to a guy? Today, who wants to try to develop a faith, but wants to try to do it in a way that feels masculine. How would he do that?
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:I don't know. What do you think? Um, I can tell you the way that I see it working in the way that it's worked for me, if that's okay. This isn't anything, you know, scientific, um, um, It just works, right, which feels pretty masculine to say. I think you should find a man in your life, whether you're connected to them relationally already or not, that can ask really good questions. Questions. I believe that's what the journey to masculinity looks like. It doesn't look like answers. That's what we're all looking for. Give me the answer. Tell me what to do. What should I do here? It looks like being curious, sitting with yourself long enough to be able to receive really good questions. For example, why do you think you reacted that way? Right? What is it that you want? What are you afraid of? Who told you that? These are all very, very deep questions that actually link us up with our Hebrew, with our Jewish history. You know, uh, the Bible contains, I think so many more questions than it, than it does answers when you really dig into it. Now the answers are enough, but it leads to more questions. So I think step one is, is finding a guy and. They don't have to be older than you. Some of these guys that are great at questions have started doing their work and we should celebrate the younger generations that are pushing past that kind of barrier to entry that us nineties kids have. They're just going for it because that's obviously trash. Does anybody have the answers? Right? Um, so for me, I think that is a necessary step. It combines two things, community and curiosity. When you put those two things together, it's like a magic potion over masculine advance.
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:Yeah. Oh, that's really good. Community and curiosity. I love that. Part of what we do within a manhood tribe is that, uh, we call it exploring, you know, a guy needs to share his story and then the tribe needs to just ask him a lot of questions, just Keep picking away at, you know, we call it chiseling. Just chisel away at that guy's story. Where did that come from? How did that happen? How long have you been experiencing that? Where else in your story have you encountered similar things? You know, where did those messages come from? Like we just, you know, all kinds of exploring to try to figure out what is going on in that man's life. Uh, and then we take all those questions to Jesus. You know, it's time to just say, Hey, what we don't want to do here is give advice. Cause we as men, we as men didn't jump so quickly to giving advice, right? We've got, we've got easy quick fixes to just about every problem and none of them work.
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:yeah, that's right.
don-ross_1_05-29-2024_150531:So we just say, Hey, we're, um, we're not going to try to solve. We're going to try to listen, you know, and we're going to take those questions to Jesus and just say, Will you speak to whatever these things are? And, uh, and we just want to hear what you have to say. And dude, I think you're, you're so spot on there with just the community and curiosity, um, which are, you know, again, like we've kind of, it's where we've been circling in this whole conversation, which is just to say like the things that men need in order to be able to face our modern challenges that we're just really lacking, you know, we're lacking relationships, uh, and we're lacking curiosity, you know, we're kind of all, Uh, facing the world with this posture of arrogance of like, I know what I need and I'm doing just fine when internally we all know that that's incorrect. Like we don't have the answers. We're not doing just fine and we need a lot of help, but we're not curious enough to try to ask for that help and to find out where it could come from. Especially if it might come from a source that's different than we're comfortable with. Uh, yeah, I think that's, that's so critical and so important, but yeah.
ben-derrick_1_05-29-2024_140531:If you have zero reps though, like when you say hearing from Jesus, asking Jesus, like if you have essentially zero reps with Jesus, you're screwed, right? So what do you do at that point? Well, you've got to sit down with another man who can play that role for you. They can give you that sort of feedback. Uh, advice is you should, if I were you, here's what you need to do. I mean, you know, if you're sitting in a booth with that kind of guy, pay for lunch and leave very quickly. Uh, but if you're sitting with a guy that says, well, I've been in a situation similar to yours, here's how it went for me. Those are two very different tones. Right? So, uh, I love the idea that you're putting forth like we we're, we're exploring externally. We're also going to explore internally. We, we have to do both.
All right, guys, we're going to leave it there for today. But next week we are going to wrap up our final part of the interview with Ben. And in the meantime, if you would like to find out more about how you can connect with Ben as a counselor or as a coach, You can reach out to him online@benderrick.com. That's been Derrick D E R R I C k.com. I'll look forward to seeing you next week.