Level 5 Friends w/ Jeff Kemp

Download the Level 5 Friendship Playbook at https://menhuddle.com.

In this episode of the Manhood Tribes Show, Don interviews Jeff Kemp, a former NFL quarterback and former VP at Family Life. 

They discuss Jeff's book 'Receive: The Way of Jesus for Men', which addresses the crisis of male friendship and how men can develop close relationships. 

Jeff emphasizes adopting the identity of being God's son, the importance of consistent and deep friendships, and practical steps on how to pursue and maintain these connections. 

Jeff also shares personal anecdotes and practical advice for men feeling isolated or friendless.

00:00 Introduction to the Manhood Tribe Show
01:52 Interview with Jeff Kemp: Building Male Friendships
04:26 The Crisis of Male Identity and Friendship
07:15 Receiving Identity from God
12:53 Practical Steps to Embrace Your Identity
17:05 Living as a Son: Daily Practices
26:04 Tennis and Marriage: A Lesson in Identity
28:29 The Importance of Identity in Friendships
30:33 The Epidemic of Loneliness Among Men
35:28 Building Deep Friendships: Level 4 and Level 5
41:18 Practical Steps to Cultivate Level 5 Friendships
45:23 Finding Friends and God's Guidance
48:05 Resources for Building Strong Friendships

Want to know how you measure up as a man? Take our free quiz, called How Manly Are You? and learn how you can get better at being a man. Download for free at manhoodtribes.com/manly.

Transcript

Don Ross: 0:18

Guys want to know how you measure up as a man? I've got a great resource for you. It's called how manly are you? And it's a free quiz that you can take to figure out how you stack up against what it means to be a man. And when you take the quiz, you'll also get some free resources to help you figure out how you can get better as a man in the areas where you would like to grow. So go to manhoodtribes.com/manly to download your free. How manly are you quiz today? That's manhoodtribes.com/manly.

0:52

All right, man. Welcome to the manhood tribe show. My name is Don. I'm really glad to be with you today. And if you have been following along for the past few episodes, you know that I have wrapped up a series on what it looks like to build close friends and how to take those close friendships and turn it into a tribe. And so I'm really excited having kind of finished up that series. Now that we're going to cap it off with a great interview with Jeff Kemp. Jeff is a former NFL quarter. Quarterback. And a former VP at family life, a ministry of campus crusade for Christ, two marriages and families. And Jeff is now a speaker and author and has written a book called receive the way of Jesus for men. This book is really all about kind of the crisis of male friendship in our culture right now, and what men can do to develop close friends. So you can obviously see it's going to relate a lot to what we've talked about in this series. And Jeff is just full of wisdom. I think you're going to learn a ton from him. So I want to go ahead and jump into our interview today with Jeff Kemp. I hope you enjoy.

Don Ross: 1:59

All right, Jeff Kemp. Hey, welcome to the manhood tribe show. Really glad to have you today.

Jeff Kemp: 2:04

Hey, thanks, Tom. Good to be with you, man.

Don Ross: 2:06

Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm, I'm really excited to be able to talk with you, about just the whole topic of friendship. I've just kind of wrapped up a series on men and friendship and just know what it, like a big, significant topic. This is at the moment in our culture and in our world. And you've written a book. What's it called? called receive the way of Jesus for men, that really does a lot about men and friendship, but I'm, I'm kind of curious, you know, just the way that book publishing and book reading in particular for men goes these days. Like, you know, why write a book and why write this book in particular for men right now?

Jeff Kemp: 2:41

I've been speaking to men and men's conferences, men's retreats, uh, coaching leaders, hanging out with guys, coaching football teams for my whole life. And I've done a lot of ministry to marriages, but honestly, if you really want to make a big difference, you got to get to the husband like directly and talk, man, talk to him. Um, So being that that's my field and there was a bunch of messages in me and I kind of wanted to organize them. I wanted to write a book for men. Um, and I was going to call it real good man. Like be be real, be authentic. Don't fake it. You know, just be who you are. Um, and secondly, be benevolent. Make a difference for others. Use your strength for someone else's benefit. That's good. Be good. So real and good. And, uh, when COVID hit, um, all my speaking shut down, all my travel, my wife said, Hey, this is good. You've been gone too much. This is an opportunity also to, you know, not just hang out with me because I'm lonely, but this is a good chance to write that book you were supposed to be writing. So I pour, I poured into, uh, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and I underlined and highlighted every single place where Jesus. As kind of the quintessential role model man, uh, was spoken of or acted, uh, what he said. And I discovered a bunch of cool stuff about what he did. I mean, he was radically humble, outrageously courageous, dignified women, uh, trained his guys. Um, he was so purposeful. You know, um, he was not afraid of blitzes and shifting gears and changing, you know, um, but the thing that blew me away wasn't the what of Jesus's manhood, it was the how, it was the way he did it. And the gist of it was that Jesus didn't perform his manhood. He didn't earn his identity. He received all of it. And in John, it has a bunch of passages where he says, my father's always at work and so am I, I do whatever he says. He says, whatever my father speaks, I speak, whatever he tells me to do. I do. Then he says, I, the son can do nothing apart from my father. And I was like, Whoa, drop the mic, slow down, listen to that. If Jesus, this, I can do everything, walk in the water, raised from the dead, you know, God in human manhood form said, I can do nothing apart from the father in that case, I think it was because he was a so humble. B so connected to his father and C chose to be dependent on him. It was almost like he had a helmet on like quarterbacks in the NFL today, listening to what the coaches are saying in that little speaker, getting his play real time from his father. And so I changed the whole title of the book to receive because I think there's too much pressure on men to think, I got to figure out my identity as a good Christian husband, dad, you know, leader, a humble guy, uh, do the right stuff with money, don't mess around with porn. And pretty soon you fail

Don Ross: 5:47

Right.

Jeff Kemp: 5:48

and then you feel a third and a fourth.

Don Ross: 5:50

to succeed at.

Jeff Kemp: 5:51

Yeah. you fail a fourth, a fifth and a 55th time. At that point, you're kind of afraid to tell your friend about it. And you're wondering if God really forgives you. And then Satan comes in and says, you didn't just do bad. You are bad. You know, God, God says, Hey, you did bad. Tell me you're sorry. And I'll forgive you. But Satan says, you're bad and you're hopeless. And that shame message is run through a lot of guys heads, even from their childhood, when their dad said, you'll never amount to anything, you know, I'm leaving your mom and the family for a new wife, which makes the kid feel like. You know, I'm not valued. I'm not important.

Don Ross: 6:27

Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 6:27

Um, So anyway, I changed the title to Receive. That's the way Jesus lived. He received it all from the Father, and it frees us men from the performance model of identity earning, the performance model of manhood, the performance version of Christianity.

Don Ross: 6:48

Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 6:49

And honestly, that's really been the problem all through history. We get a little bit of God, and then we try to do it ourself.

Don Ross: 6:56

Right. Yeah. Yeah. The God helps those who help themselves, you know, kind of mentality.

Jeff Kemp: 7:01

What verse is that?

Don Ross: 7:02

Yeah, exactly. Uh, it's not one. If for those of you who are listening, who maybe aren't sure about that, that is not a verse, but yeah. Uh, okay. This is great, man. I'm, I love where you're getting at and, and kind of the direction that you're headed in. And so this is, this is what I want to ask is just, yeah, I think what you're describing, you know, kind of men getting their sense of identity from their work or, you know, the woman or the women in their lives, you know, any kind of, you know, our financial success, you know, name what you want to like, I think men understand that almost intuitively because it's, you know, it's the ocean that we all swim in. But when you're talking about receiving a sense of identity, uh, from God, like I think most of us don't even have a clue, That's not a category that even makes sense. So like, can you walk us through that a little bit? Like what, what does that, what does that even look like? How do we receive a sense of identity from God?

Jeff Kemp: 7:54

That's, that's a really helpful and key question that we oftentimes don't ask, but I'll just start with how Jesus received his identity from his father. Um, the premise is you receive your identity from the one who created you. Not manufacture it yourself.

Don Ross: 8:11

Right. Sure.

Jeff Kemp: 8:13

So therefore identity is relational, not achievement oriented.

Don Ross: 8:19

Hmm. Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 8:21

Okay. I achieved NFL backup quarterback who got to start as a quarterback for two and a half years. Was I a starter and then not a starter? Was I a backup? And then not even an NFL quarterback. When I got cut, did I lose my identity when I no longer was a quarterback? Uh, did my identity inflate when I was doing great and they were cheering and did it deflate when I was released from the NFL and didn't have that job and status anymore? Uh, the true answer is no, but. Man, you know how much we go in the tank when stuff goes wrong at work or with our wife or you know, we're not impressive, our pickup trucks doesn't have as many bells and whistles and isn't brand new like the other guy that has three of them and a boat being pulled behind his. Um, so identity is received and Jesus received it relationally. So do we. So it starts with, take a look, um, at Jesus in the river being baptized by John. comes down in a dove and his voice thunders from heaven and says, this is my son. So there's his identity. My beloved son, he's unconditionally loved. That is his security. And then he says, I take delight and pleasure in him. That's his approval, which every, every boy wants his dad to pat him on the back and says, son, you got what it takes. I believe in you. You're, you're a man, uh, you know, join the company of men. You're going to do great things. Uh, I know your third string. Don't worry about it. Someday you'll be a starter. I know. You don't seem like you have a lot of friends, but you're the friendliest little kid I know, and that's going to be a great trade as a man. My dad was that kind of guy to me, but not in a perfect way, the way Abba Father was to Jesus. And then Jesus again got his identity bestowed upon him. at the Mount of Transfiguration when he took his three best friends, and we'll get to that in a minute, the type of friendship Jesus wants for us, Peter, James, and John. So he's up on the mountain, and the Father again speaks about him and says, This is my son, identity, my beloved son, unconditionally loved and secure, in whom I take delight and pleasure, total approval. And then he says this, He is the chosen one. Listen to him. That's his place in this world. That's his purpose. That's his mission. That's his calling. Every man is made to achieve. To conquer, to overcome, to make things better, to protect, to use his strength to make life better for the vulnerable or the weak, or just anyone. And so God gives Jesus all four of those gifts, and He received them from His Father. Well, in 21, it says that God made Jesus, who knew He was perfect, and lived the perfect life with all the temptations, but never sinned, to be the punishment for sin, for Don and Jeff and all the other dudes that mess up all the time. including trying to do it on their own, which is part of the messing up, uh, for those who do sin so that we could be made the righteousness of God. He gives us credit for Jesus's righteousness. So it's like our bank account all of a sudden has a trillion dollars of righteousness that we can go to God and say, Hey, I belong with you. And secondly, uh, he adopts us as his son. And it says he makes us righteous. I think that probably means something like he's in the process of it. And we're going to be perfectly righteous in eternity. But since God's outside of time and space, right now, he sees you, Don and me and every guy listening, he sees you five years from now, 10 years from now. And a trillion years from now, when he's got the whole thing wrapped up and fixed. And we're living in paradise and you're the intended, excellent version of yourself and he's giving you credit for that now and he's smiling on that now, even though you yelled at your kids last night and you haven't dated your wife in two months and you're mad at her for not having sex with you. And you're, you're handling your money terrible and you're not succeeding and you're feeling insecure or you're you're looking at, you know, uh, porn on online and you feel crappy about yourself, but you don't know that God feels good about you. He's already solved all that stuff. He's already forgiven all that stuff. He just wants you to receive it. We haven't received it, much less received our identity to get started. So that's how Jesus did it. Um, a part of this, the most practical part is start every single day and say, Because of Jesus, God, I'm your adopted son. Wow.

Don Ross: 13:04

Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 13:04

Thank you. Help me live today as your son, and you'd be in charge the way you said that you'd lead Jesus. And he said, I want you in charge of me, Father, and I can't do anything apart from you. Start your days like that before the phone, before the news, before the feed, uh, before you go to the gym and work out and look at the girl's bodies.

Don Ross: 13:28

Right.

Jeff Kemp: 13:30

Um, if you do God first, he'll be running through your thinking as your father all during the day. And when temptations come, it's like, Hey Lord, you made a great, a great woman there. Uh, I pray blessings upon her and thank you for my wife. I want my wife to be my focus. That's what God's, God's guidance will guide you there. You're trying to make a financial decision and you don't just think, Hey, what's going to make me the most money? You think. God, what's the soundest, wisest thing from the motive of love that makes my wife feel secure? That,

Don Ross: 14:04

Yeah. Gosh, man. Uh, yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 14:07

that all flows from abiding in Jesus, which is John 15, 5, that's his coaching. And Jesus abided in the Father. And I think it really helps to make sure that you remember you're living as a son today, but you got to start your day that way. And now that also, you know, begs the question you started with, how do we actually get started receiving this identity as the father sons? And I can say, you could just pray and say, God, right now, help me receive it. And then I want to be refathered by you. I want to be refathered. I'll keep going on that, but let me stop for a second so that I catch my breath and you can directly or amplify this if

Don Ross: 14:51

that's great, man. Yeah. No, God, there's, there's so much, uh, just good stuff there, uh, that you said that I think rings true for me. I think a couple things, uh, that you highlighted, it's just the necessity of kind of reciting the truth to ourselves. You know, I think as men, the messages of the world around us are so strong and so loud. And it's sometimes really, really hard to hear the fact that God sees us differently than the world does. And if we don't take time, and I love even how you said it, like at the beginning of your day, before the phone in particular, right? I mean, how many men, uh, and it's gotta be most, if not all of us begin our day, you know, by having the phone alarm go off and we reach for the phone and start scrolling immediately, you know,

Jeff Kemp: 15:37

that that I mean that the smartphone is making us dumb dudes,

Don Ross: 15:42

absolutely. Uh, but just recognizing that, like, we need something before that we need truth into our heart, you know, before, uh, we give the world a chance to kind of dictate our day. And so I love that just reciting the truth. Who am I? I'm a son, you know, let me just, if I can begin with nothing else, let me begin with that. I'm a son and I'm loved and just recognizing that identity, I think, you know, can, can make a radical impact on our day, but I also love how you just talked about the fact that like. It's also got to include listening. Like we've got to just take time. If like, if we want to hear, if we want to receive something from God, we actually have to take time to listen to what he has to say. You know, we gotta, we gotta actually tune into his voice so that we can receive it from him. And Jesus was a master of that. Uh, and I think we often overlook that for just kind of paying attention to the, the actions that we see him doing. Um, and kind of missing the point of like how often he pulled away from all the activity to be able to just listen. So, yeah, so many good things there, man.

Jeff Kemp: 16:39

I think what you said. I want that. I want to affirm is you said the power of what we do. tell ourselves will shape our life, but we don't even spend much time thinking about what we're

Don Ross: 16:51

right.

Jeff Kemp: 16:52

So in this podcast, we're reminding guys, dudes, you have the power to talk to yourself and that will highly, highly, highly influence how each day and each week and each year of your life goes. And I know I heard somewhere, um, Tozer or someone said the most important two things about you are what comes in your mind when you think of God and what comes in your mind when you think of yourself.

Don Ross: 17:18

Mm hmm.

Jeff Kemp: 17:19

Basically, your, how accurate is your image of God and how accurate is your image of yourself, your identity. You got to get those two straight and you can't get the one on you straight if you don't get the one on God straight, because you were made by God. What a lot of us didn't have a dad, so Heavenly Father doesn't feel great. Or we had a negative dad, so it doesn't feel great. We need to go back and read Luke 15 where Jesus talks about the prodigal son and the Judgmental, you know, uh, earned it himself, ungraceful, bitter, older brother. They both had the same dad. That's the way Jesus painted the picture of a father. Uh, he stood on the porch and didn't chase his son into the slop of the bars and prostitutes and stuff, but he prayed and he looked and when the son came back, he didn't say one word about the dumb stuff he did. He embraced him and threw a party said, you were gone. Now you're back. Let's move forward in grace. Older brother, everything I've always had is yours. Please, come on, get into the party. Let's celebrate. That's the, that's the type of father we have. He is the perfect father. If you think of the perfect grandpa and the perfect football coach who's the most encouraging guy ever who calls you to a higher standard but he encourages you after you play a poor game because he knows that you're going to be better next game. And the grandpa who's up in the stands, who's just proud of you, that you're even on the field, put those two together and then start studying the Bible and say, father, God, what are you like? And if you realize that he gave up his son for us, you'll realize he is outrageously amazing. So start there and then ask God, show me. What you think of me show me everything about my adoption read all the passages in the Bible about adoption and being a child of God and a son of God and what happened for me was I knew this stuff theologically and I had a very Encouraging dad so I didn't think I had any father wound or need for quote Refathering, but my friend Ed McGlasson who played in the NFL and became a pastor and a great evangelist and speaker I heard him Oh, I know. Doesn't he hear me? He told me one day his life turned around at age 40 when he asked God to refather him because he had a Navy dad that was a real motivating dad that drove him like crazy to get into college and get into the pros. But he took that same attitude into pastoring and ministry and marriage, and it wasn't working with his wife's wife with his wife.

Don Ross: 19:57

Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 20:00

their hearts. And he, he asked God to re father him and said, I'm going to read the whole Bible and say, God, show me what you want me to know about you as my dad and me as your son and how to live with you as your son every day. So when he told me that I did that in 2020. Right when I was reading those Jesus passages in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And I also read a good book, uh, Father God, Daring to Draw Near. Uh, Father God, Daring to Draw Near. by Dave Patti. If guys get in touch with me, I'll give them a bunch of these resources and ideas that I talk about. Uh, including Ed, Ed, Ed, Ed McGlasson's ministry, which is all about fathering. Um, and I asked God to re father me in 2020. And the Bible came alive, Don. I quit reading it as a Christian or as a men's speaker, looking for something that, you know, is going to be real helpful. And I started reading it as a son listening to my Abba Father.

Don Ross: 20:54

Yeah. There you go.

Jeff Kemp: 20:56

And that leads to what you said earlier. We actually can listen to God all day long. We can listen to Abba Father all day long. The Holy Spirit, if we'll be silent a little bit. If we'll occasionally get alone, if we'll expect to hear from Him, if we'll read the Bible, not so I can have ten minutes and then check it off a list, to hear from our Father. Listen to the sermon at church. Don't critique it. God's going to say something to you, and even if it sucks, He can speak to you through everything. Your wife. Start listening to God through your wife, imperfect as she is. That is the way to be refathered and to live as a son, and I'll shut up for a moment while you can say something, but I got another funny story, though, about living as a son.

Don Ross: 21:45

Yeah. No, man, all of that is great. I, you know, I think as I talk with men, I think the, the thread that I hear over and over again, when it comes to men and the way that, uh, they relate to God is that more often than not, they just, they just probably, if they're honest, they feel like God is disappointed with them. You know, it's

Jeff Kemp: 22:02

Frowning. He's frowning. He's frowning at him. He's got his arms crossed.

Don Ross: 22:05

You know, like either they're screwing up too much, you know, making too many bad choices or they're just not doing enough, you know, or some combination of both. Um, but it's just this burden that men live under of, uh, of not being enough. And so I love how you're describing that picture of just being able to say, no, like, God could not be more delighted with you as his son, you know, like he could not be more happy that you are his son and his love for you is boundless and being able to rest in that changes the game. Right. I mean, it changes everything. Um, and, and I, and I hear what you're saying. I love, you said it kind of at the beginning about like, Wouldn't it be awesome if we had like a, you know, like a quarterback helmet with the, you know, the speaker in it, where we could just kind of like dial into God. But I think the point of what you're saying about listening is like, we actually do have that it's, you know, it's called our heart, like the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our heart. And we actually can tune in and listen to the voice of God. All throughout the day now, yeah, there's things that can cause interference and that, and we can get it wrong. And, you know, there are some things that we have to practice there and learn how to be able to do well, but we do have far more access to God and to his personal voice to us than I think most men realize or want to take advantage of. So I love how you're highlighting that, but yeah, tell your, uh, tell your story. I would love to hear it.

Jeff Kemp: 23:23

Well, before I tell the story, listening to him in the metaphorical helmet just happened because while I was doing this podcast, you got to know my personality. I'm an ideator, I'm a visionary, I love to impart vision, I'm way over the top, I'm ADD, I can talk too much, um, but I'm praying, and I prayed with you before this started, that Abba Father would speak to us and guide us. As I went kind of long on one or two answers, I kind of heard him saying, Don't just be the one who's interviewed and expect Don to ask you another question and give him some more stuff. Why don't you stop Jeff and see what Don has to say. And you didn't ask a question right now. You kind of synthesized and brought a new angle and helped guys a whole bunch. And I was listening, liking what I was hearing from you. You were like, so, but that was God's voice that told me, Jeff, stop being so Jeffy. You know, you'll, you'll get to be you. I like you, but there, you know, let's hear a little bit of Don. I want to work through him too here and my sons. I've had two sons who've had to do job interviews lately, a career transition stuff, and, uh, you know, my encouragement to them in a very gentle way, uh, making sure that I'm not bossing or mentoring because they want to be their own man. I was dude. God's got this. Just listen to him. Father. God is going to speak to you all through that interview. That's what you can take into any tense situation, any conflict with your wife, any really important business meeting. You can be listening to him in your heart. Okay. Now here's the story. It's kind of funny, but, uh, for the last four years, I've been waking up in the first two or three minutes before phone or anything, anything else, whether I can have a nice long, quiet time, or just have to jump in the car and get on a plane or fly to some city, I'll sit in a chair or maybe on the back porch. If I have time, I'll take a walk outside, uh, and I'll take two or three minutes and say, Father, because of Jesus, thank you that I get to be your son. Thank you that you're an amazing dad. Help me soak in that. Help me sit in that with you. And I have a little Shema is the name of that repeated Jewish prayer that they prayed. Uh, the Lord, the Lord our God is one. You shall love the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind. Um, I wrote my own. It's Father God, Lord Jesus. Holy Spirit, Father me, lead me, and fill me. Help me live as your Son today, depending on you.

Don Ross: 25:57

Yeah. Fantastic, man. It's so simple, but like,

Jeff Kemp: 26:00

I see that in the car. I say it walking through the airport. I say it in the chair to get started. Well, Stacey and I play tennis. It's our date. Uh, our marriage has plenty of differences that bug the heck out of us. But when we can date and play tennis, which we love doing together, we do so much better. So. One day I woke up at the last minute, didn't have my sitting in the chair with ABBA father, didn't walk out of the house and drive over to the tennis club as a son, I was kind of groggy, started warming up in tennis across from the net from her and I'm not hitting the ball well, and I'm getting kind of frustrated and mad. So what do I do? I try harder. I'm kind of a competitive rascal. I start smacking it harder. It's not working. It's not fun for her. The ball's gone all over the place. She can see my attitude. We're not going to have any fun conversation between, you know, games. Uh, and all of a sudden, instead of beating myself up, which Satan would beat you up, sometimes church morality would beat you up. The culture's beating you up. Instead of beating myself, I, I stopped and I left and it was, uh, kind of like that old V8 commercial. Oh, I could have had a V8. I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm not playing tennis as a son. And all of a sudden I said, God, help me get back to playing tennis as a son. And right then, Don, my whole body relaxed. All my muscles calmed down. My spirit and attitude calmed down. I had a chuckle inside of myself at myself. And I had the thought, this tennis needs to be fun for her. And all of a sudden I started stroking the ball. Smooth accurately right in the sweet spot of the racket. It's going right to where she can warm up without him. Chase it left and right. We had a great time, not just tennis wise, playing good tennis as a son, but relationally, we ended up having a date. And I take that silly example into life and say that wasn't silly because it's your marriage and it's your competitiveness. And those things need to be conquered by God. You can't conquer them yourself. But they also matter in financial matters, temptation, lust issues, um, raising your kids. Handling tough situations, uh, making a big decision on a career move. I don't want to do it. And afterwards say, dang it. I didn't make that decision as a son.

Don Ross: 28:25

Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 28:26

I made it on my own.

Don Ross: 28:29

Well, and I, you know, as I think your, uh, book kind of highlights pretty well, it also impacts the way that we, uh, pursue friendship, right. That, uh, that the way that men need to pursue friendship really has to be built on that identity. So this was actually kind of a, I want to say new idea for me, but maybe just something I hadn't really connected the dots on that well. So talk to me about that. Like, what is it about, why do we need to get this identity piece in place in order to kind of figure out the friendship piece as men?

Jeff Kemp: 28:57

We need the identity piece in place. To have the teamwork we need in life, which friendship is central to because we need courage, courage to be honest and real and transparent and vulnerable and consistently self disclose what's going on in our life. That's the only way we can have an objective view of ourself is if horizontally. We tell the truth about who we are, not to 600 people in some, you know, business meeting, not to 60 people at a church meeting, uh, not to 6, 000 on social media, but to one or two or three deep, trusted, consistent friends, level five friends, and we'll get to level five in a second. Let me just say, Don, we are in the most connected era in history. Every guy has the bigger, bigger network than they've ever had in history in their phone. And. Most of those stay at a certain shallow level or your good friends, maybe level three friends. If you think of five levels of friends, these are the ones in the middle at maximum. You can remember like 110, 120 names of people that you really, uh, are semi friends with. You only talk about the same old regular stuff within a certain small container. It's, it's kind of safe and, and it doesn't go deep. You know, you spent the whole day with him playing golf and hunting and maybe skiing and you come home and your wife says, Hey, how was the time with Tom? And great. Yeah. Did you have fun? Yeah. Was it meaningful and helpful? Yeah, sure. What did you talk about? Nothing.

Don Ross: 30:29

Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Kemp: 30:31

All right, but

Don Ross: 30:32

Every guy's been there.

Jeff Kemp: 30:33

a, this is the most friendless era in history, and there's a epidemic of loneliness based on this friendlessness. And Christian men struggle with this just as much, and you know who struggles with it more? Pastors, high performing author, speaker, Podcaster, notoriety guys, athletes, politicians, anyone who's on a pedestal who's got corporate leaders. When you're a leader today, you're getting flattered, which you love, and you're getting aggressively critiqued, which you hate. So you insulate yourself and you stop having friends. You have, you know, the hanger honors, the bandwagon, you know, uh, President Trump would remind me of this, but most any politician and sadly, pastors are afraid of what people in the, you know, the, the church will do to them if they find out their honest stuff, anyway, uh, 76 percent of men don't have anyone trusted that they can talk to about anything important in their life. That's from research in 2021. All right, now let's get to just you and me. Guys would like to have friends. They remember when they're in the military on a high school football team or whatever, a buddy, but then you get married, you get busy, you got your job, you're trying to, you know, coach little league, uh, and you just, you don't have much time for it. But secondly, you're worried if you really tell what you're like, the other guy's going to kind of roll his eyes. And lose some respect for you. You've been burned when you shared a prayer request one time and a guy went and shared it, someone else that turned into gossip, uh, you're afraid of feeling less than when you tell a guy how badly you struggle with porn. So all of those false fears based in an insecure identity. That doesn't have the courage to be honest, stop you from building the deep friendship that you really need and want. And guess what? He needs it too, because his problem with porn may be even bigger than yours. And if he doesn't have that problem, he's got a drinking problem or he's got a pride problem. Or he's got a marriage problem

Don Ross: 32:44

Or all of the above. Yeah,

Jeff Kemp: 32:46

or all holy above. He's a champion problem. Did, uh, so you asked, how is your identity crucial to having deep friendships? First of all, I don't think we really understand deep friendships. Secondly, we're afraid of the transparent vulnerability, uh, that, that comes with being open and honest thirdly. We don't carve out the time to consistently be in touch with a friend and you got to be in touch every week to know each other's lives. You can't get the wise counsel that Proverbs talks about, uh, unless you're in someone's life and he's in yours and you're processing everything every week. That's where we get that wise counsel. So your identity gives you security and God's approval and his smile upon you, even when you're, you think you're a schmuck and that gives you the courage to put yourself out there and be real with the other guy, because you already know, God thinks well of me and his opinion matters the most.

Don Ross: 33:39

that's right. Yeah.

Jeff Kemp: 33:40

Alright, so that is, I think, one of the most crucial things of why receiving your identity and letting God re father you and then soaking it every day for two or three minutes to start and then carrying it with you, wait a minute, I'm a son of the Father, I'm not just, you know, Christian dude number 296 being measured against 297 all the other guys.

Don Ross: 34:04

right. Yeah, Yeah. I, man, I love all of that. I love what you said. Uh, even just when you kind of started, you were saying, you know, that, that identity piece is necessary for courage. And I think that's so right on the money. You know, if, if I can, if I can rest in the fact that I am a son and that God's love for me is completely. Unchanging than it does. It gives me the courage to be able to actually be honest about what's really going on in my life, because I know that even if I share all that with somebody else and it goes south, right. And that's what we fear. Um, and that could happen. Like it's happened to many of us. Um, but even if it does, My identity still doesn't change. I'm still completely loved. I don't, you know, overnight become a train wreck or a complete disappointment or an utter failure. You're like, none of that happens. I like, I have the courage and the identity to be able to hear it at manhood tribes, we call that getting naked. I have the courage to be able to. You know, like take the guard down to expose myself, to really be honest about what is actually true and going on in my life with another man, because that's the only way to, uh, freedom and wholeness and health, and that's what we're trying to pursue, but getting there, you know, takes more than, uh, most of us are willing to do. And I think that's where you're right on the money, you know, just saying that we need that identity piece. But I want to ask you about. want you have kind of teased a couple times now about these like five levels of friendship. And so that's where I kind of want to go next is just to have you, you know, you kind of mentioned the fifth level is maybe the deepest or the closest, but like talk to us about what those are. I don't think guys tend to think of friendship in levels. So like what's your, you know, kind of analogy for that. And, and what are those different levels sort of look like for men?

Jeff Kemp: 35:46

okay, well, I'm not trying to help guys, you know, have Lots of level three, normal friends. That's that's taken for granted. So let's talk about level four and five and think of a pyramid. Uh, it's very much like Pat Lansani's five dysfunctions of the team, top of the pyramid. I got the idea from Jim Collins in good to great, who talked about five levels of leaders, the rare breed at the top who changed the culture and build amazing companies and go from good to great, they're, they're the most humble leaders. And they're doggedly focused on the purpose. Those two traits do apply to the level five friendship. Um, I'll give you more of them because Jesus is the model for level five friendship, level four friends. And a lot of guys don't have someone like this that you can call at 2 AM and say, my marriage is in a crisis. My son just got arrested. I just got arrested. Uh, I just got caught. With this, you know, uh, affair or whatever, or I'm in depression and I haven't told anyone, my brain won't even work. I'm starting to go numb. Do you have a four, a 2 a. m. friend that you trust enough that you can be real with? And I think every one of us. Need that and want that and you got to check in with that guy and you got to maybe share life stories a little bit Have some experiences together Ask if he'll be confidential and tell him you'll be confidential with your stuff Can't will you be there if I need you and vice versa? And if you have some old friends like that, you haven't talked to him because you moved away from them nurture those old friendships You can't make old friends again. You can't make an old friend. They have to exist already.

Don Ross: 37:34

Yeah. Okay. This is, this is so great because what you're describing as a level four friend is at least in my experience of working with men is what I think most men think of as a really close friend, right? That's, I think that's what, if I ask a guy like who are his close friends, the guys that come to mind in his head are the guys that he would say he could call in a crisis, right? The guy that he could call, uh, when, when, you know, the poo is hitting the fan. Um, but for most guys. Uh, they haven't spoken to the, that guy, you know, to the 2 a. m. friend since high school or college. And that may be for, you know, decades for many men, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I could like pick back up where we left off, but I haven't talked to him in a long time, but if I really needed him, I bet he would be there for me, but you're saying that's just like a level four friend and there's actually something deeper or better than that. So like, tell us what, like, what's the difference, what's the

Jeff Kemp: 38:24

Yeah, I think your point is a level forefront is a close friend that you have some trust and confidence in. And, you know, you said it might have been 10 years. I'm going to say it might have been 3 months ago. You haven't talked since then. That still means. He's not there to help you during those three months and you're not there to help him. Um, you're drifting off course. Level five is close, but it's consistent and deep, consistent and deep. So I'm going to, I'm going to lay out a number of words here. First of all, it's intentional. You decide I want and need, and so does my, my buddy or two other buddies, this type of friendship, intentional, committed. It's consistent in the sense that you set a schedule that we're going to talk about each week. Some guys text you three times a week about the important stuff. Some guys have a call automatically, but most guys have to schedule a call, a zoom or meeting up with each other. All right. This is not a small group. This is not something you join and unjoin. This isn't a noun. This is a verb. This is doing friendship. So intentional, committed, consistent, it's scheduled. And then you explain, what do you want out of friendship? And he explains it to you. And I can help you with that in this level five friendship playbook, about 10 pages of, of bullet points and guidance that I drew from Jesus and the Bible and, uh, experience with friends. And then you build safety and trust. You, you build rapport by telling each other stories, knowing, Hey, what was your dad like? What was your childhood like? What was your biggest blitz in life? What's been hard? in my, In my, uh, I built a couple of really solid level five friends, uh, over the last couple of years, in addition to a couple that I meet with already. And I had this group of guys that didn't even know each other and I'm calling it a group, but really our goal was to become friends because we had an affinity as speakers and men's ministry dudes. And they didn't know each other, but they knew me. And I put a zoom together. We told our life stories for the first couple of weeks. We talked about our risk areas. What are our temptation areas? My mine is the physical, uh, uh, the, the lust of the eyes, the visual, the curiosity, you know, women. Um, and secondly, a quest for significant significance, kind of this hidden pride that always wants more. Uh, I put that on the table early and I also had us metaphorically shake hands and say, are you confidential? Sure. Because I am. Do you have my back? I have yours. Once men do something like physically shaking hands, fist bumping, shoulder bumping, it sinks in and it means something. So all this is kind of laying the intentionality for how your team of friendship is going to operate. And then it starts being humble and open and self disclosing. You're not afraid to confess your struggles and weaknesses or your great successes. You can be real. Um, and you pray for each other. So that's all level five. Once you get intentional and you know, you're going to talk to each other each week, the key is, are you going to talk about what's important and here's the way to do it. Just ask a guy within the first five minutes of connecting instead of talking about the golf match or, you know, something else. You can do that all week long, but you got to have an intentional time to talk about what's important. You, you, you say God, uh, or excuse me. you say Hey, uh, You know, Don, what's the most important thing that you need to talk about today? And then I ask you a second question. What's the most important thing I can pray for? And then I urge men to say a man prayer with your friends, which is short, sweet. and inspired by what God wants for them more than what you can dream up for them. So just say something like, Lord, I pray that you bless Don's marriage and family even more than his podcast. Help him not get carried away with it. Whatever's best for him, whatever's best for Don, do that, Lord. Amen. Wow. The dude's like, I like getting prayed for like that. It didn't, it wasn't intimidating. It wasn't long. It didn't have fancy Holy language. Uh, and then he'll ask you what's the most important thing. Okay. You can ask other questions, but this is not an accountability group. You're not saying how'd you, you know, did you cheat on your taxes and did you hit the dog? And what do you mean to your wife this week? Um, did you look at some wrong stuff on your phone? Um, we should self disclose that stuff. That's so much better.

Don Ross: 42:44

Yeah. And in that kind of friendship, that's the way it should happen. Yeah,

Jeff Kemp: 42:47

accountability. Yeah, and I will help these guys, any of them listening, develop that level five friendship. And you need to pray, first of all, who God needs me and who do I need? And then you can start checking in with guys for the next couple of weeks and asking those couple of questions and offering to go first. And if a guy is warm to it and likes it, then you might want to get intentional and call him and say, what if we set up a regular call? And maybe we could do it with one other guy. Cause I think a, a triple friendship team is super duper powerful. Um, it's just two personalities, twice twice the prayer, twice the objective input on the things you're going through. And Don, this isn't just about talking about the stuff that happened last week. It's talking about the things you're thinking of doing in the next week to year. That way you can process your life ahead of time. And once you say it out loud to a friend, an honest friend, it might sound a lot dumber than it did in your head when you get it out of your mouth. Or they may ask a question. Like my friend asked me, Hey, do you think you have a lot of credibility on that issue? You want to talk to your son about? And I said, not really. I think it's going to turn out well. And I said, no, not really. He said, okay. So he, he consulted me and I came up with my own conclusion because our friendship is that integrated into the most important things. And I told a friend of mine about this one day. He said, geez, Jeff, you guys aren't just friends. It's like you're partners in one another's life. Yeah, we are. We're, we're partners. I want, I want Greg and Pete to win in marriage. And fathering in their walk with God in their discipleship. And they want me to win God's way. And we're together.

Don Ross: 44:33

dude. That's awesome. And I think probably as guys are listening to that, uh, there's a lot of men out there who really, really long for that kind of friendship. But I want to ask you, Jeff, cause uh, as I've gone through this series, the, the, The most common comment that I've gotten from, you know, guys who are, uh, listening in or watching the content that I've put out there has been, yeah, I'm 27 or I'm 38, or I'm, you know, 59. I don't have a single friend. That's been the most common comment. I don't have any friends. So I think there's a lot of guys out there who are listening to this kind of content and are going, yeah, I really, really want that. But when I look around to try to find like who I could pursue that with, there's nobody, there's nobody on the radar at all. So what would you say to a guy who's in that position? Like how and where does he even get started?

Jeff Kemp: 45:28

I'm not criticizing that guy, but I'm diagnosing. He's probably saying I'm looking around and I'm not seeing it. I'm not feeling it. I don't know who he's doing it on his own. He's not doing it as a son. Jesus wouldn't have just said, Hey, I wonder who my disciples should be. Jesus went up on a mountain for a whole night with his Abba father, spent the whole night with Listening to Abba Father, talking with him, and then he chose the 12 friends. And the Father guided him to Peter, James, and John as his deepest three, I guess you'd say level five friends, Jesus type friends, the deepest consistent friends. So I'm saying to that guy, listen, buddy, you have something to offer to someone else. And they've got something to offer to you. God can do anything. He raised Jesus from the dead. He can find you friends, ask him, ask him, be a son and say, father, guide me to who you want me to become a buddy with a level five friend. And, uh, just show me the steps to get the ball rolling and give me the courage at the right time to intentionality and almost this commitment that what kind of friendship do you want? Let's, let's talk about this. Uh, let's, let's define it. And then let's start putting it on the calendar and showing up with each other weekly. It's easy to put a call together for 45 minutes a week. You might have to move the time. We, if you only have two other guys you're doing it with, it's easy to move it around. If it's a small group of seven guys, A, there's no time for each guy to talk. B, there's at least two guys in the group you're not sure if you want to share that with. C, you're studying some book that fills up the hour and there's no time to talk and pray with each other. That's a group. You need a friend. You need a You need two friends and God will guide him there. If you ask him and say, God, I'm your son, guide me to this. You want this more than I do. So make it happen and get in a, get in a, uh, a Bible study at church, a small group at church, go ask the mentor pastor, uh, go to a Christian business networking, marketing thing, or look back at your old friends. And decide you're going to do this by phone or zoom and not worry that he doesn't live in the same city anymore. God can skin this cat. God can skin this cat a million ways. If you let him be the lead as a son.

Don Ross: 47:51

Yeah. He's a good father. No, that's awesome. Jeff. Uh, gosh, this has been a fantastic conversation. And I feel like, uh, there's so many rabbit trails. I could have gone down in this conversation. We're going to have to do it again and we could spend another couple hours, I think, talking through these things, but yeah, this is awesome, man. So, uh, as guys are listening, if they're hearing what you're saying, uh, I know you've got a, uh, kind of resource that you want to help get in their hands. Where can they go to kind of get some access to your content?

Jeff Kemp: 48:15

Yeah. I think that the single quickest, shortest help they can get is to get this level five friendship playbook. It's a digital PDF. They can download it. When you go to men, huddle. com. My, my website is men, huddle. com. Um, it's also Jeff kept team. com. Uh, but either one of those, it'll pop up. And you'll download it and then you can send the website to a friend and have him look it over. You could give it to a, you know, a pastor at church or another leader of men and say, Hey, what do you think of this? Let's talk about this. So get the men huddle playbook, uh, at my website and you'll see There's a book there, the audio book is, uh, uh, available, and the normal book, it's Receive the Way of Jesus for Men that you mentioned, um, and there's a Bible study, I call it Field Guide, Daily Devotions, and then group questions, uh, for groups. My church has a couple hundred guys going through it right now, and, uh, the Refathering's in there. The building deep friends is in there. Um, operating from your identity as a son is in there and I've got a weekly blog that I try to keep it short because I have some editors who do better than me at keeping things short and they help me. And I've heard guys say this is hitting the real issues in my life. So you'll get that if you sign up for the, um, level five friendship playbook again, men huddle. com.

Don Ross: 49:38

Awesome. Yeah. We'll put that in the show notes. So guys, you can, uh, go there and look for that link, uh, to be able to find it and to go download that resource. I would encourage you to do that today. And Jeff, man, uh, thanks for being on the show today. This is a great conversation. Really appreciate your time.

Jeff Kemp: 49:51

Hey, it's great, Don. Thanks, man.