Manhood Tribes

How to Live Out Your Faith at Work (Without Getting Weird About It) w/ Brian Gray

• Don Ross • Episode 63

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Most men don’t know what it really means to live out their faith at work. Is it just about being ethical, or is there something more? In this conversation, Don sits down with Brian Gray, VP of Formation at the Denver Institute for Faith and Work, to unpack what it looks like to integrate faith into your career, find meaning in everyday work, and lead with integrity and excellence.
If you’ve ever wondered how to bring your faith to work without being “that guy,” this episode will give you a deeper, more practical vision for what faith at work really means.
🙏 Brian mentioned a free devotional called “God Loves Work.”
 👉 Download it here: https://www.denverinstitute.org/god-loves-work/

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Question for You
 What’s one way you’ve found to live out your faith in the workplace? Drop it in the comments — your example might give another man the courage to do the same.

⏰ TIMECODES
 00:00 Exploring Faith in the Workplace
 00:57 Brian Gray’s Role and Work
 03:06 Challenges of Faith and Work Integration
 06:35 Historical and Cultural Context of Faith at Work
 12:58 The Bigger Vision of Faithful Christian Living
 16:42 Finding Meaning and Purpose in Work
 22:16 The Value of Work in God’s Design
 23:20 The Divine Purpose of Work
 24:12 Finding Meaning in Everyday Tasks
 26:53 Integrating Faith into Work
 27:19 Practical Exercises for Faith at Work
 32:25 Sharing Faith in the Workplace
 38:53 Resources and Community for Faith and Work
 43:10 Final Thoughts

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 #ManhoodTribes #FaithAtWork #MensLeadership #ChristianMen #WorkAndFaith

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Don Ross:

All right men. Welcome back to the Manhood Tribe Show. And we are continuing in our series where we are talking about men at work and just how we deal with all of the things related to work. And I wanna ask you guys, if you have ever really wondered what it looks like. To bring your faith into the workplace. For those of us who are men of faith, that probably is a question that we ask ourselves from time to time, and especially try to think along the lines of, is it just about like doing good things with the money that we make, or sharing your faith with your coworkers, or is there something really more to it than that? Well, I'm excited about our guest today who is gonna help us think a little bit more along those lines and give us, I think, a better picture of what it means to be a man of faith at work. Or even if you're not a man of faith, how to really think about what does it look like for people who are that, to have their faith be something in the workplace that can actually be a good thing for everybody else. my guest today is a guy named Brian Gray. Really glad that you're here on the show. Brian. Brian is the Vice President of Formation at Denver Institute for Faith and Work leading the 52 80 Fellowship Praxis Labs partnership and some professional groups working on civic and industry issues in Denver. His vocation includes moving good ideas into a more meaningful life through reflection, relationships, and conversation. He also happens to be my brother-in-law, so really glad to have you here today on the show. Brian, welcome. Welcome.

Brian Gray:

Yeah, it's good to be here. This is gonna be a classic, uh, evidence of nepotism for your listeners. You just got like the family hack to come in here and talk shop. I love it.

Don Ross:

but when you've got good family, you need to take advantage of it. Right. So why

Brian Gray:

We'll see. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll proof. Send the pudding. It's good to be with you. Good talking about this today.

Don Ross:

Okay, man. Well, hey, let's just start off, uh, why don't you tell us a little bit of like, what is the Denver Institute for Faith and Work, and just tell us more about

Brian Gray:

Yeah,

Don Ross:

do.

Brian Gray:

yeah. We, Denver Institute. We, based on the city tag, we are in the front range of Denver, Colorado. We do most of the things, uh, here in local. We also have some national facing expressions to serve people in other cities. Uh, our hope. Basically the problem that we recognize is that there people have a, generally a pretty anemic, thin vision for what work could look like. The topic that you set up with the question in terms of how faith can inform work, uh, and could be a positive motivation towards your contribution to a workplace or to your city. So we have anything from a couple of major events every year, uh, for professional women, uh, or for business leaders. I run a leadership development. Fellowship. We have the Faith and Work podcast, which is, uh, one that we host here. So a number of resources just to help people be thinking about the, the what should be the natural integration of two things that are deeply important to us. So, been around for about 10 years, uh, and I've been here originally on a founding board and then have come on staff since.

Don Ross:

Tell me like, what, what are people hoping to get out of their time, you know, with and

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

organization? What does it look like to kind of go through, you know, one of your cohort groups or a workshop or whatever? Like what, what do you come out on the other side feeling better about? I.

Brian Gray:

Yeah, well it is varied as the people who show up. So my guess is that the, uh, maybe I could answer that in terms of what are some of the common, uh, tensions or sticking points that people have around this idea of faith and work integration. And I bet you they'd be really common to most of your listeners. So we'll hear from people. Uh, people feel a pretty strong sense of social isolation. Within their workplace and the way it comes out is. They'll, and they'll say, I don't know any other fill in the blank. Believers in my company or industry, fill in the blank. Could be serious. They could be committed. Or maybe, I know some Christians that are great Christians, but they just don't take the excellence of their craft and their workplace really seriously. So people find themselves isolated from either Great at my job people or committed to my faith people, and they don't know those two together. So we hear that from people a lot. Another kind of problem, we have people who come in, uh, with a purpose question. I wanna know the larger purpose that God might have for this thing that I'm spending. And mathematically, this is the case. 50% of my conscious hours are going towards one thing.

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

I'm not asleep during the week, I wanna know what God cares about it, that he cares about what he has to say about it, how it informs how I go about my work. Uh, that's another pretty common one. And then the, the one that, uh, really gets a lot of my interest is we want Christian, we have a lot of Christians that will show up wanting to offer a different type of faithful public presence. Through their work or through their career, they're Christians who want to be known for love and some tangible expressions they want to be a part of. Uh, they, they might recognize, Hey, Christianity oftentimes has a reputation issue in my company or in my industry, and I want to be, uh, kind of excellent what I do and be a kind of a positive representation of Jesus, but also of professionalism. So very, those are the types of issues that people mostly show up to our programming with. And then our hope is to. Through spiritual formation or some practices that can take into the workplace, that might even be like executive coaching, like tools or through convening and connecting people in meaningful relationships, uh, inside their industry, that they'll go back in with some new motivations, some new practices, uh, and some new ways to think about what it looks like to do their job with both faith-based and career-based excellence.

Don Ross:

Yeah. Uh, I think that's great, man. I, yeah, I, I think, um, I think most of us, uh, in, in America especially, who would, you know, say that we're followers of Jesus and are trying to take that. To some degree, seriously run up against this challenge of how do I take it seriously in my workplace? You know, whether, whether they're in a workplace where, you know, their faith is really kind of like, if not outright like. They feel like people are hostile to it. It's at least maybe kind of like a keep that to yourself sort of thing.

Brian Gray:

Yeah.

Don Ross:

so I, I think a lot of us just kind of struggle with that idea of what is it, how would I even do that? You know, what does that even begin to look like? Um, but I, I kind of wanna, I wanna ask, uh, you know, I I, I kind of teased it at the beginning of the episode and you kind of talked about it too. I'm just kind of curious, like, how did we get to this place? Where, you know, kind of the prevailing idea of faithfulness at work gets reduced to just like, you know, sharing my faith with my coworkers,

Brian Gray:

Yeah.

Don Ross:

I'm not doing anything like illegal or unethical, you know, in the way that I do my

Brian Gray:

Don't steal the pencils. Talk about Jesus. Great.

Don Ross:

Like how did you get reduced to that?

Brian Gray:

By the way, um, younger listeners, pencils are these things with wood. They've got lead and we used to write on paper with them. Yeah. The, you know, there's a, let's just be fast and kind of bullet points, but I think that there's two stories. There's a faith-based story that gets us to that, and there's a cultural story that gets us to that. Uh, let's start on the faith-based story. If you just think about. The roots of Christianity and Juda, uh, roots of Christianity, the movement of Jesus, it comes out of, it's really a kind of a sect of Judaism at the very beginning. Judaism has some things that are on limits and off limits. You can eat these foods, you can't eat these. You can dress this way. You can't dress this way. Then in the Greek culture that Christianity in the New Testaments is, um, growing through. They also have this kind of, uh, sacred and secular divide, if you will. So it's just a way kind of a phrase. So certain things are really important, other things are less important. So if you're a philosopher spewing ideas on the steps of Rome, that's very high and noble and lofty. But if you were the stone mason who installed those steps, that's considered a lower

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

type of work. And so we've got these two different divisions between what's secular, sacred, or what's important or what's spiritually significant. And those things just try trot right into Christian thinking

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

if we are not careful. Historically, the cultural side is that, um, if, just think about our dollar bill, it says, in the founding of our country, it says there's a message written across the top of any of our paper money that says, in God, we trust we're on our coinage. So Christianity used to be considered a public good. And then most of us have run into that version of we, let's say we're talking to somebody about our own faith, or, Hey, I was at church this Sunday, and they say, well, what's good for you is good for you. What's good for me is good for me. So now the statement is it, Christianity used to be historically in our country, viewed as a public good. Then it's like, well, it's a private good. That's fine for you. And I'd say that the reputation problem culturally for Christians now is that it's considered, the question is, is this a public bad? In other words, are the ethics that you have or the views that you hold, um, problematic what, regardless of your political take. And what you thought about the first Trump election, the big message was those Christians did this to us. It doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican or a political independent, and I am, uh, the message was, the problem with this president came from the Christians. That's just all that is, is a super interesting statement of there's a reputation problem. So I think as a net result, Christians are just left with, well then how do I make these things work? Because I got these divides. I got a cultural divide.

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

Right. I got this faith divide and in most churches, to be frank, I was a pastor for 13 years. I know you've pastored. Most churches aren't talking about work as a significant place for discipleship, worship, public mission. So that divide just gets continued Sunday after Sunday. And so what are we left with? Well be a good person. I know I'm supposed to be a good person, so I'll just apply that at work. Be ethical. Don't steal stuff. Apply that at work. I know I'm supposed to talk to people about Jesus, so do that at work, but.

Don Ross:

That's all you got?

Brian Gray:

That's all you got. Yeah, it's really instrumental. It just makes your work just kind of an instrument to get to the good stuff of Christianity. And it's just, it's a, it's a too small story.

Don Ross:

No, I, I would agree with that. And, and even would say, you know, I think actually like, uh, in becoming a pastor and kind of getting into ministry work, um, a part of that was coming up in a culture that tended to talk a little bit, like if you, if you're, you know, I don't know that I ever heard this directly, but it was kind of like. In the air, you know, so to speak, that it was like, if you're gonna take your faith seriously, the way to do that is actually to do it full time. You know, like you need to go into some kind of vocational,

Brian Gray:

You only heard that indirectly. You tell you.

Don Ross:

not directly. No, I think it, you know, it kind of got a, uh, you know, danced around as, as much as you possibly could without saying it directly. Um, but yeah, but there definitely was that sense of like. who are really serious about their faith do it by making it into their career. And uh, you know, and it just kind of left. I think people who wanted to be serious about their faith but weren't interested in being in ministry feel less than, you know, kind of like secondary, like

Brian Gray:

Oh yeah.

Don Ross:

doesn't actually matter to God, but I know I matter to God, so I'm gonna try to do all of the Christian things. In my very, you know, secular workplace environment, and hopefully that's how he will approve of me. And I, there's something just really, like inherently I think I, I know that there's something wrong with that, but it's hard to put a finger on like why that's

Brian Gray:

Oh

Don Ross:

and what

Brian Gray:

It's, that is the poison. That's the poison in the water. It's like, it truly, it is a very prevailing, the reason I asked the question is if you'd ever heard that directly is'cause I did. So growing up I was a pretty solid Christian kid. People said, oh, you should consider being a pastor. Say, I don't want to be a pastor, being a pastor. For people who don't know what to do with their lives like that, you know, I, I there's some honest take. Well, true, true story, Dawn. I'm at the, um, I'm at this little university in the SEC called the University of Texas, uh, for grad. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but anyway. Yeah, it's a,

Don Ross:

Must be

Brian Gray:

yeah.

Don Ross:

school. Yeah.

Brian Gray:

Yeah, it's q small school. Uh, this is our SEC rivalries coming up. So anyway, I met, but I was at the University of Texas and I was doing my, uh, I got my degree in applied heart research, the research I'm doing over at the university. And then the work I'm doing in running the lab after I graduated would be to help, um, black and latino populations receive enhanced cardiovascular care through our local hospital system. They have different, uh, genetic and exercise and dietary responses than most of the traditionally Anglo population that have been studied so far. So we're basically trying to advance, if, if you will, we're trying to advance medical justice on behalf of these populations. Nobody at my church applause for this. Like nobody knows to say, oh my gosh, if God looks at the world of medicine, he would want that.

Don Ross:

Right.

Brian Gray:

a great thing you're doing. But when I volunteer in the college group, and I did, and I would preach on Sunday mornings and I did, and I would lead two small group Bible studies of college guys and I did. And when I would run their short term ministry trips, oh my gosh, metaphorically speaking, everyone would applaud. And they said, you should be a pastor. So I was a pastor and I loved it and it was a good fit, but I could have been a God honoring people serving public Christian in cardiovascular medicine just as sacredly.

Don Ross:

No, I, I think that's good. That's really good perspective. Okay. So, so keep that going then like, us there into like, you know, whatever you need to say to be able to, uh, to do this for us, but give us, give us the bigger vision then if it's not just simply about, you know, um, sharing my faith at work or, you know, using, you know, 10% of my income to tithe to the church or, you know, whatever. If it's not just simply about

Brian Gray:

Yeah.

Don Ross:

baseline things. What does Faithful Christian. Living look like in the workplace.

Brian Gray:

Yeah, the, I mean, even as we talk about this, what I wanna be careful about, and I know you and I both believe this, there's not a minute of time spent in financial generosity or loving a person who doesn't yet know Jesus and friendship that's wasted. Like, that's super important. So don't hear us. Don't hear us taken away from that. It's just.

Don Ross:

things to do, but yeah.

Brian Gray:

It's the, if it's the only story for my work, it's insufficient for the whole gospel. So the fast is, I could tell you the gospel, if you will, in two chapters. An individual is sinned and an individual is forgiven by Jesus Personal salvation, okay, totally fits the gospel, has to be that to be legitimate. But the Bible unfolds a bigger story where there was this original created intent for the world. And right out of the gates in Genesis one, we have people made in the image and likeness of God and all we know about God up to that point is this. God was at work. I made people in his image and likeness. So you've gotta create an intent and you've got human rebellion, we call it the fall. Uh, and that keeps on going through the brokenness that I bring into my workplace and the systems that I create. But then in the life with Christ, he's, it says we're, he's redeeming all things in Colossians one and all things, it's a super, super technical phrase in Greek, and it means all things like. Literally, so the, so therefore the brokenness in my workplace, or if I've got a dysfunctional team that has communication issues, or if I've got dequity in what women are paid in my industry versus what men are paid. Well, if I look out and I realize that there are some, um, some ethnic or other types of biases that are influencing some of the way that the supply chain is interacted with, all of these things are brokenness that Jesus would want the Christian in her or his trade to care about in those places.

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

Because he is in fact redeeming all things. So I think that larger story means, okay, now I go to work and I view half of my life is spent, right? Half my waking hours are spent in a place, and that is the life with God. So that's a place for my prayer. I mean, look, I'm not getting paid to pray, right? If I'm in medical sales, no one's confused. I'm the public school vice principal. I'm not getting paid in the public school to pray, but we bring the life of prayer to that. We bring the life of our own spiritual maturity and growth to that place. We become a person of who's working to create healthy relationships, seeking the flourishing of other people around us. And if they wanna talk about Jesus, we're also willing to do that. But here's the deal. There's the my, one of my favorite parables or stories. Jesus heals 10 levers in the Bible. How many of the 10 lepers come back and make any type of spiritual response towards Jesus One.

Don Ross:

Just one.

Brian Gray:

So is he wasting his time on the nine or was he doing what brought their flourishing or their healing or a, a wholeness to them physically? And we say, yeah, it was. And so both of those are in play that this, that for a Christian to attend to the common good in her workplace or his workplace is, is, uh, really important. Uh, as well as being fiscally generous, as well as talking about Jesus, as well as the way I'm being formed to be a more, uh, ethical person who loves and honors God in every activity of my life.

Don Ross:

That, uh, that's really good. I, I think for me, know, as somebody who has been in vocational ministry and now for the past, you know, several years has been on the outside of that, uh, kind of seeing the difference. Like, I think one of the things that I've really. Encountered is, you know, I worked in vocational ministry, it was really easy, like almost kind of to take it for granted that the work that I'm doing is valuable because, you know, it feels like it has spiritual meaning. And, uh, and now being in a, you know, in a corporate, uh, work environment, um, there's a little bit of loss to that, you know, of kind of like from a. Um, from a faith standpoint,

Brian Gray:

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross:

what I'm doing really even matter, you know, and there's days where, uh, I mean, if I'm being honest, there's days that I go to work and I'm like, this does not matter. You know, this is, who is this benefiting? No one, why am I doing this? Uh, and so, you know, like, how would you speak to that? How would you speak to the person who is kind of wrestling with, you know, the guy who's showing up to work every day feeling like I'm earning a paycheck. I'm,

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

right by, you know, my family or my future or

Brian Gray:

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross:

Um, but I just don't see how what I'm doing is actually of any meaning, value, purpose,

Brian Gray:

Yep. That's a really common challenge that a lot of people face first thing, even people who are in occupational ministry. You in the past or me working in a faith-based nonprofit, we face it. So I face it all the time. I'll get done with a 45 hour work week and I'll say, I know I worked my butt off. What did I actually do? What did I accomplish? And here I am, like leading, uh, spiritually integrating practices into the way our nonprofit operates and doing leadership development. So just so that it's a common human.

Don Ross:

the same way working at a church. It was like, oh yeah, we had plenty of meetings that could have been emails

Brian Gray:

Ask any pastor, go, go. Uh, guys, if you're listening, go ask your pastor how they've ever experienced this. And anyone who's honest will tell you that it's an aspect of their work. And in part because work is imperfect and we're imperfect, so there's gonna always be a limit.

Don Ross:

the meeting with a prayer. Didn't make the meeting good.

Brian Gray:

Yeah, I mean, you could, we're in a meeting, the meeting has no agenda and I'm already losing my mind. I was like, wait a minute. Wait, what are we doing here? You know? So look,

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

work can be bad in a lot of ways, but I'd say to the specifics, um, you know, the, the, the thing that, let's think in three categories, uh, for any single one of us, and I wanna suggest in any type of work that's not just. Overtly sinful, right? So you can't work for the Dallas Cowboys and honor God, for instance. Like everybody. Like, or you can't, uh, you know, you pick like, Hey, I'm not.

Don Ross:

that involves cats.

Brian Gray:

I'm not you. We gotta come up with a whole bunch of one. But for kind of joking aside, like a hitman for Jesus isn't a career. So let's just like, let's carve off the strong man. Anything that's overtly sin, stick it over there. Any other thing that's not explicitly sin can either be done to the glory of God, to the love and service of other people, and as a part of my own formation, um, just as much as anything in quote unquote occupational ministry. So we can talk about, um, work as my. Uh, growth, sanctification, holiness, whatever. We can talk about work as my, uh, public mission and service of other people. Um, and we can talk about, uh, work as my actual, uh, worship of God. So I'd say for the pur, let, let's pick something that would feel like it has no purpose. Waiting tables, I pick it'cause I used to wait tables. I used to feel like I could wait tables, very sacredly and in a way with a ton of spiritual significance. And also I could do it. Like any old run of the mill person who checks his faith in the door, right?

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

I can go up to this table of young folks, I can upsell them on a bottle of wine that they might not be able to afford, but I get a little bit bigger tip. Or I can say, Hey, you know what? That$60 bottle of Cabernet is so good. You made a good choice, but that$42 bottle of Cabernet is unbelievable and you save 20 bucks. And these, you know, these, these kids light up. I think that's a way that I can actually serve clients at a table, that I can practice hospitality, that I can offer generosity to others, and I'm just selling a bottle of wine in an Italian restaurant. So the material activity of what people do in their job isn't what makes something important to God or not. It's how we go about doing what we do, why we go about doing it, how we see that as a way to serve other people. Uh, relationally around us and through the, I also think through the quality of the product we create. So there's a few different ways to approach that. Depends on people's industry.

Don Ross:

Yeah, that's, uh, that's fantastic. I, I think that's, um, I think that's the, kind of the crux of the matter for me is being able to recognize that like the way I go about my work is, uh, it. Is a big component of what matters to God. You know, it, it's not, it's not the only thing, right? My, my work actually is valuable in and of itself. Um, I'm contributing in some way to the good of society, to the flourishing of other people. Those things are valuable to him. It's part of what he has created us for, but the way I go about my work is probably what's gonna impact the people around me far more than the actual work that I'm doing. And, uh, and that's, you know, that's what really matters to his heart. And, and we see it. over his creation, you know, and all over the way that, uh, that Jesus came and displayed, you know, what it looked like to interact with people. Um, it wasn't just the things that he was doing, it was the way that he was doing them. So, yeah, like I think you're, you're hitting it right on. I know for me that was, uh, that was such kind of a turnaround moment for me in terms of understanding like. The value of work that God actually cared about work itself and, and you know, that it wasn't just, um, as long as you were doing spiritual work, then that was good, but that any work that is meant to benefit other humans, uh, is good work. That's what he's designed us for. And so we, we can and

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

find meaning and purpose in that and figuring out how to explore that. So I think that's great.

Brian Gray:

Well this, this whole starting narrative is farming, like the original example of this. So we're in Genesis one, and so far we just have God at work creatively, like first 25 verses of Genesis, God's at work creating for anyone else who's a Hebrew. All the other countries around them in the ancient near East, none of their gods worked like that would be a ridiculous sentiment. They all played and they made jokes about humans, and humans existed to serve the deities, right? But in that Christian like Genesis one, let's skip the dinosaurs for a minute. It's actually not written as a science manual. It's written as what we would call an apologetic or a defense to answer who is God and what are people for? Who's God, what are people for this? God works. He made people in his image and the very first thing they're supposed to do is create and to cultivate and to make more. Look, I made all these different things now, uh, farm, tend the garden till it cultivate it, make more of it. And we can kind of keep extrapolating, write beautiful code, have a spreadsheet that's clear and understandable and executes what you're supposed to do. Like pour the cement cleanly in between the form boards. Educate the rowdy first grade kid. With patience and love, like human beings. The, the context was, and God blessed them, Genesis 1 26 and said, be fruitful. Create, cultivate. So the, the context of giving of work is blessing right outta the gates. And the first work is farming, not pastoring. It's farming, it's not nonprofit guy, right? It's agronomy right outta the gate. So.

Don Ross:

Yeah, I think that's great. I, I remember having a, a conversation with a, um, a college student one time not too long ago, just kind of talking about he was doing some like, um, you know, DoorDash driving or something on the side. And so we were, we were kind of talking about that, and he was kind of bemoaning, like all that he had to do with, you know, to be able to get to where he wanted to go. But this. You know, DoorDash thing was just for now and um, and you know, I just said like, well, you know, like, I know it's not what you wanna do for forever, but like, God does care about how you do your DoorDash driving. You know, like the fact that

Brian Gray:

Absolutely.

Don Ross:

up on time with somebody's order, like. blessing to them that, you know, that's what they're hoping for and anticipating. And the fact that you do that and do it well, like it's a blessing to them. They're maybe not gonna thank you for it. They might, they might give you a bigger tip, but it is a blessing to them. And the way that you go about that, with that attitude is the way that you honor God in your work and that he

Brian Gray:

Big time.

Don Ross:

in what you do because you're doing it well. You know? And so I, the, just, that conversation was, I, I think a little bit mind blowing for him. But I remember how mind blowing that was for me too, of first kind of realizing that'cause just no one had taught me that, that God

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

about the way that we do our work.

Brian Gray:

Well, we had like to your, to the table waiting. It's not just a. Cute example. I actually really liked waiting tables. I put myself through grad school twice, PA waiting tables, and so I had this significant moment of conviction. If you've ever waited tables, you know what side work is? Side work is we take the, we take the silverware, we roll the napkins around, or we set the table and usually if there's five of us who are waiting tables, we go. Do the side work to set the tables in the whole restaurant, particularly in fine dining. Well, Dawn, when I'm doing that in my section, I'm gonna have six tables in this restaurant. So I'm putting the fork straight, the knife straight, the spoon, everything is like high and tight, and then I go over to someone else's section. I'm like just flocking it out. Just like, okay, I got the fork and knife in the spoon in their table because it's everybody's responsibility to then come back in and double check their section. So in other words, I'm taking care of number one and my section is high and tight, and I do just the minimum barrier of entry. Like, look, silverware and plates are on your table. Take care of it. And I had a serious moment of conviction. I'm not gonna say that like the Lord spoke to me when I was waiting tables, but I mean, dang. Felt a little close. And it was the words of scripture from one Corinthians, and all you do, do it all to the glory of God. And I'm sitting here, it's like, you gotta be kidding me, like when I'm in someone else's like section, wiping the lady's lipstick off the wine glass on someone else's table so that their guests have a good experience. I was like, yeah, that actually how I do what I do. Waiting tables, wiping lipstick off a glass under the glory of God is in all you do. So you're, you're right on this. You're right on with the DoorDash guy for sure.

Don Ross:

Cool. Um, okay, so,

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

would you, uh, what, what do you do and what does Denver Institute do to help folks be able to put that into practice in their workplace? Like, I know you talked about just, you know, spiritual disciplines or things like that. How do you recommend, like, okay, here's what I can actually, kind of tangibly do to help me be mindful of that, to be more faithful in the way that I'm participating in, you know, the work of God and the way

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

my work. What, what does that, you know, kind of practically look like?

Brian Gray:

Uh, you wanna do a real fast exercise together that anybody who's listening could do about their work. Great. Um, tell me, Dawn, about um, what's an. Activity that comes up as a regular part of your job. Like it's, it, there's some routine to it. It's clockwork, it's gonna happen several times a week or it, it's real frequent. What's, gimme like one or two activities.

Don Ross:

Uh, one would be, so I, I work in digital marketing right now, so one would be, um, building new ad campaigns.

Brian Gray:

Okay.

Don Ross:

a few of those

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

Um,

Brian Gray:

Great.

Don Ross:

probably more tedious is like checking campaign performance. So like every day I've got, you know, uh, multiple campaigns I've gotta run through and see how they're doing.

Brian Gray:

Let's take a checking campaign performance. Before you go and do that, what are the potential responses you might have to the numbers you see that are in that campaign performance? Like what are the possible results and how do you feel about it?

Don Ross:

So, um, if it's, you know, on track or ahead, I'm like, great. Moving on to the next, you know, I've put like. Very little effort into looking anymore at that campaign.'cause it's doing what it's supposed to. Um, if it's not, you know, then it's like, okay, there's the initial, like, ugh, this one's gonna take more time. Um, and then it's the process of figuring out, okay, what do I need to look at? You know, I, I'm not gonna start at the same place on every campaign if I've looked at this one before, you know? Probably not gonna repeat the same steps. I'm gonna try to figure out what can I do in addition to what I've already done. If it's something that I'm looking at kind of for the first time, I've got kind of a checklist of things that I, you know, look at from the start. What, what do I need to inspect to see if it can be improved here? So, you know, we have kind of, we call it our, you know, optimization list. What are the things that I need to do to try to improve it? Um, but yeah, there's definitely that initial like, okay, here we go.

Brian Gray:

So you just described in specific detail about your job, what is in essence common to every single guy listening, which, um, and it's about, you know, did we get the truck loaded, right? It's about did we tick off this client in terms of delivering this report later on time? Whatever it is, there's, there's indications of our performance that are all over any of our workplaces. So I'm gonna just say if for any listener, if you go take. And there's, when there's some way that your job, because of your job description and what you get paid good money to do, or hopefully good money to do when you're supposed to perform and you come into those experiences where either your performance worked or it didn't, or it was excelled or it's falling short or it's something you got of like redo or over again. What is a simple one sentence prayer that you can carry into that situation that comes up all the time? Here's one for the salespeople, like in sales. When I go to check the dashboard, I am not my number like God is God. My sales quota is not. Those are like, I'm not my number. God is God. My sales quota is not.

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

I can't tell you how many salespeople get hung on that because it's your performance, it's your revenue and income on the commissions, and so whatever your. As you come, indigo, track those things carrying a very simple, we would call this a breath prayer. It's a prayer that can be prayed silently, could be often prayed on the inhale and on the exhale. Very simple thing. So when you have a, you develop a, a routine activity, it literally becomes like a call to prayer for you. It's like, what's the thing that I'm gonna do to keep my attitude right, to be healthy in my way, that I envision my work and to respond to God Well? Regardless of how this campaign's going, you just carry a silent breath prayer. That's like a simple activity. And we could talk about hacks, hacks, but like, um, techniques or tools to bring that into a lot of different places. But it basically is like, if you've ever heard the church bells ring in the village, there are a reminder that you're supposed to pray whenever the bells go. This is like the everyday activities of your work can be like the church bell that calls you to prayer. So a real common one for me, when I would wake up in the middle of the night, I used to be our COO, so I was doing operations and I'd wake up in the middle of the night and think in spreadsheets,

Don Ross:

I'm

Brian Gray:

I would just pray my breath. Prayer was good. I hate thinking in spreadsheets. Goodness. Um, my work is to rest. Yours is to watch like in the middle of the night. It's God's on. I'm not. My work is to rest. Yours is to watch. So I'm getting that spreadsheet outta my head, my work to rest. Your work to rest. I just had a breath prayer for whenever that came up and the gut spikes and I'm getting anxious. It's like, dude, my work is to rest. Your work is to watch. So a simple prayer, no one needs to know about it. You're not getting paid for it, but you are a faithful Christian integrating the everyday activities of your work with what's important to you in a relationship with Jesus. So that's a, that's just one example of a lot of different ways we could talk about it.

Don Ross:

That's, uh, that's fantastic. I, I love that and I, I think that's something I, you know, I can put into practice tomorrow. You know, like the, just an easy way. Of like, uh, you know, I am not my campaign's performance. You know, I, that's such an identity statement. You know, just, I'm gonna start with God is God, I'm his son. Whatever the performance of this campaign looks like, doesn't change any of that. You know, just really, really simple. So that's great. Um, okay. I do wanna circle back to, uh, talking about sharing your faith at work.'cause I know, you know, I've, I've, I've bemoaned it a little bit because I think, uh, you know, I think rightfully so, um, we've kind of reduced faithful c Christian witness at work to just sharing my faith with my coworkers. But I do think that in a very genuine way. Christians want to be able to share their faith with their coworkers. And

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

at the moment, uh, we, we have all kinds of obstacles for being able to do that, right? In some places it's like expressly forbidden. Um, and other places it's just really frowned upon because, you know, it makes people, some people feel uncomfortable. Um, it's a, you know, just kind of a taboo topic. Uh, and I think by and large, you know, kinda like you mentioned, like the church provides us. Almost zero training in how to be able to do that effectively. You know, to be able to bring up faith in a conversation with a coworker in a way that doesn't feel creepy or, uh, confusing or pressured or, you know, whatever. Um, so I, I just kinda wanna ask like, do you have any, you know, suggestions on what, what are some ways that we can be a, a faithful witness for Christ in our work environment without, you know, doing it really poorly?

Brian Gray:

Without being the creepy person. I, here's how I describe the creepy person. The creepy person is the guy that like lurks behind the water cooler. Younger listeners, a water cooler. There's this thing that dispenses water when we used to go to an office, okay, there's a creepy guy who like lurks behind the water cooler. It's like, oh, Dawn, I saw you just turned in your TPS reports. Which reminds me of Jesus, you know, like you don't wanna be that cat like nobody wants, and nobody at your work wants you to be that cat like that guy is.

Don Ross:

You see him

Brian Gray:

No one wants to work with that guy.

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

one wants to work with this. Um, so, but let's just say, I think actually taking your work really seriously is an important one. Many times Christians are, are considered, um, otherworldly, a little bit heavenly minded. They can just, like, what's important to'em is spiritual stuff. And so actually I think here in the mid 2020s, kind of post secularism and post modernity. Uh, being excellent at the craft of your work is evangelistic lowercase e like a Christian who actually cares about the world, cares about people, cares about their work, is already in the early steps of evangelism, being and expressing good news. So first of all, don't buy that secular sacred divide. Keep them integrated. The other thing is we want to think in terms of what it looks like for our faith to be really winsome on other people's terms. Um, I found a way to do that is, um, when I'm working with some other people, uh, in settings that aren't faith-based, oftentimes we share, uh, outcomes or we share, uh, values or we share some things that might be motivated by my faith, but might be, might not be motivated by theirs. An instance, right now I've been doing some work around affordable housing, so that puts me out in a policy space where I, for my, because of my faith, motivation, care for the poor. Uh, trying to bring housing justice to the widow, to the orphan, to the immigrant. These types of Old Testament kind of ideas. Well, that's my motivation, but I'm sitting across from, uh, an agnostic at best. Uh, a person who's got some animosity towards Christianity. Do you know what we agree on? Poor people ought to have a house and they should not be put over the racks, uh, at the cost of living in our city. We need to create a possibility where those who have, have a little bit less on behalf of those who need right. So she and I agree on something. We actually share common ground. So the way I wanna be winsome about my faith is to say, let's work on what we share. Let's, let's work on the good together. But I wanna strongly bring my own faith motivation to why I do what I do. But I'm curious, I wanna know why you do what you do so we can have a different why. We can agree on the what. And even a lot of times the how. And I think most people are perfectly accepting of that type of winsome Christianity. It's like, well, look, I, I'm not into Jesus and most Christians freak me out, but I like the ones like you who care about housing,

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

I like the ones I remember in, in the restaurant. I keep going to the table waiting examples'cause I'm just trying to think because I'm trying to be real specific in the most, uh, unlikely environment. My friend said, I don't like a lot of Christians. I remember this conversation. I don't like Christians, but I like you'cause you're a liberal. I'm like. Dude, I might be the most conservative Christian. I was like, what do you mean bi liberal? It's like, well, you're not mean.

Don Ross:

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Gray:

I was like, oh,

Don Ross:

Yeah. And

Brian Gray:

the only barrier of

Don Ross:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gray:

the only barrier of entry an evangelism at the Italian restaurant is don't be mean.

Don Ross:

yeah,

Brian Gray:

I couldn't believe she said this,

Don Ross:

yeah,

Brian Gray:

like from like literally from her mouth to my ears, to the Lord's ears in prayer. Like, I can't help us not to be mean in the restaurant, Lord. So.

Don Ross:

yeah.

Brian Gray:

I think just being, being really winsome and this is all before we ever start to talk about Jesus. Like,

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

be great at your job. Bring your why, your faith. Motivations behind your job to the workplace.'cause you're a whole person. Expect your colleagues to do the same and honor and respect the differences in your why. Work towards a really killer what with an excellent how in in the way that you care about people.

Don Ross:

Yeah.

Brian Gray:

That's like all pre evangelism.

Don Ross:

Yeah. I, I, and I think that's so good. It reminds me of that kind of like old leadership axiom of, uh, people don't care what you know, until they know that you care. And you know, it's exactly what you're saying. It's like, uh, you know, in the workplace especially, they wanna see that first you care about your job because, I mean, you know, nobody likes to be on the team with the person who's not pulling their weight. Right. Nobody does. Christian, non-Christian, it

Brian Gray:

that group project is the worst group project.

Don Ross:

percent. You know, don't be that guy. And especially like, just because it, you know, everybody needs to pull their weight. But especially if you want to communicate something about your faith, or not you're pulling a weight communicates way more volume about your faith than anything you're gonna say about Jesus later on down the road. Right.

Brian Gray:

Big time. Big time, big time.

Don Ross:

I, yeah, I think you're just spot on. And that's such a, it's such a healthy reminder for us, uh, as believers, you know, to just to recognize that like, uh, you know, nine-tenths of what we say about Christ, um, is influenced by, you know, the, the way that we're living and acting, you know, the rest of the time. So, um, yeah. Super helpful. Super helpful. Um, okay. Let me ask, uh, one last question just'cause you know,

Brian Gray:

Yeah.

Don Ross:

are based in Denver. Uh, probably, you know, most of the folks listening are not in Denver. So tell us a little bit about like what the, the cohorts that you guys put together, what you do in those kinds of groups, and how could people in other places do something similar if there's not a Denver Institute of Faith and work, you know, near them.

Brian Gray:

Yeah. Lemme give you a couple of, uh, a couple of things that could be. Kind of action point. So if you find yourself listening, you're like, you know, I'm kind of interested in. Discipleship or faith growth opportunities that would relate to my work. Um, I run in this city what's called the 52 80 Fellowship. 52 80 stands for 5,280 feet, which is the mile of elevation the Denver's at. So it's like a, a local moniker, right? It's a local slogan. So I run the 52 80 fellowship, which is an early to mid-career professional development, spiritual formation, and theology for work program. Okay, well, you gotta live in the Denver front range. You gotta live like somewhere within an hour and a half at Denver. But, um, on our, on our website, 52 80 fellows.org, I listed nine or 10 different cities at the bottom of our page where fellowships like that are happening in other cities. We have this big belief here at Denver Institute. We wanna help grow fruit on one another's trees. So that's just if you, if something like that, uh, in being in a peer learning environment where, uh, elements of professional coaching meet my theology, meet faithful practices, like the breath prayer thing we just went through. If something like that, uh, is of interest, I could give you a list of 12 cities. Where they're doing it around you. Uh, and they're on their website, so 52 80 fellows, um, dot com would list that. But we also have, uh, a few things that we do nationally and we just take the Denver tag off of it because we don't wanna serve people here. So our Faith and Work podcast has. You know, couple thousand, uh, listeners per episode and, and they'll range anywhere from, right now we're in a series, uh, about faithful voices from the workplace. So we're just interviewing people in different industries. What's it look like to be a faithful artist? What's it look like to be faithful in high finance? What's it look like to be faithful in the energy sector? What's it like to be faithful in retail? Uh, and so we're just interviewing some folks, but we have a number of different things on our podcast, uh, that are like that. And then truly what I generally say is if people, it happens to us all the time, we love to make connections for people in other cities. And so, you know, if people ever, um, went to our website, Denver institute.org. Two, two things, uh, that you can find there. One, if you just hit our email, our generic email that goes to an inbox hello@denverinstitute.org, say, Hey, I'm in this city. You got anything for me That gets routed to me. And I'll say, yep, you're in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Oh, do I have the people that you need to meet? Oh, you're in Atlanta. This is the people, this is the org. These are the folks doing this kind of stuff. So don't be shy about reaching out. Um, and we, we at that hello at email and we'll make a connection. But the other thing is if you go to our website or you just Google Denver Institute, God loves work. We just put together, it could be a, maybe a, a partying if we put together a free download, which is a, a couple of weak devotional like activity to help people just think. Uh, biblically do some Bible study about, or prayers for, uh, the nature of their work. So we produced one in, uh, previous year. We produced another one, uh, back for Labor Day earliest year. So if you wanna look back and you're looking to start any kind of new habits, uh, new kind of practices around integrating things in your workplace, that's just a free resource. You can go grab, uh, the God, God loves work will be the Google search for, from our website that'll find it.

Don Ross:

Yeah, and we'll put that in our, uh, episode show notes as well so people can find the link there. But,

Brian Gray:

Great.

Don Ross:

think that's fantastic. I think just a, you know, simple kind of devotional to help people get started along this path. If this is something that you've kind of never given much thought to, um, you know, that's a great starting point. Um, as a way to just be able to think about what does it look like to involve your faith in your work and to see your work as a place where you actually do practice your faith, even if that doesn't look like sharing your faith. Uh, or, you know, just ethical business practices. There are ways for your work to be honoring to God, and I think that's the, that's the perfect start to it.

Brian Gray:

Yep.

Don Ross:

closing thoughts on faith in work or SEC college football or Liverpool or craft

Brian Gray:

Oh boy. You're hitting my sweet spots. I'm gonna grant, I'm gonna grant people that Arch Manning might be overrated, but we'll just see how that all works out in that story. Uh, we won't talk about Liverpool football'cause we're gonna go win the premiership again. But here's what I want. Here's the parting thing. I wanna leave with the listeners. I am 100% guaranteed, the only listener to Manhood Tribes who has seen the host in his pajamas on Christmas morning.

Don Ross:

I don't know. I think my mom is probably listening somewhere.

Brian Gray:

Alright, well great. Me and Juju though, we've both seen Don in his pajamas on Christmas morning, so I just wanna say like, what a distinct honor it is for me to have seen the checker plaid Christmas pants

Don Ross:

you go.

Brian Gray:

of Don Ross from Manhood Tribes. Yeah, they're treat.

Don Ross:

Well, dude, thanks so much for being on the show today. It's been really good talking to you. Uh, guys, I hope this has been super helpful to you in the ways that you think about, uh, your workplace and your faith and how to incorporate the two of those things. Go check out our show notes for any links from the episode to be able to help you get started. And, uh, Brian, it's good to see you as always, man. All right. See you guys.