The Performance Trap Most Leaders Fall Into

In this conversation with Brian Owen, we unpack why high performance isn’t the goal—and how “meta performance” changes everything. Brian discusses his extensive 30-year career in the field, offering insights into personal development and growth. This episode provides valuable coaching for leaders, focusing on achieving peak performance in all aspects of life.

Most men think becoming a better leader means pushing harder, performing better, and staying ahead of everyone else. But what if that mindset is actually holding you back?  💪

If you’ve ever felt stuck trying to lead a team, frustrated with people who won’t step up, or unsure how to grow beyond your current limits, this episode will challenge the way you think about leadership—and yourself.

In this episode, we’ll explore:
 - Why high performers can actually hurt a team
 - The difference between high performance and meta performance
 - How asking “what am I capable of?” changes everything
 - Why leadership starts with your own transformation
 - How broken commitments reveal deeper issues in your team
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Episode 075: The Performance Trap Most Leaders Fall Into

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
01:00 Meet Brian Owen
02:00 From ministry to coaching
04:00 The problem with high performers
06:00 What is meta performance?
10:00 The performance pyramid explained
13:00 Why leaders struggle with teams
16:00 Leading from your own transformation
20:00 The 4 shifts to meta performance
25:00 Why feedback is critical for growth
28:00 Broken commitments and team trust
32:00 Real-world team leadership challenges
35:00 How small issues reveal deeper problems
38:00 Brian’s personal transformation story
40:00 How to connect with Brian
42:00 Wrap up and comment prompt

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Transcript

Don Ross 0:01

Guys, welcome back to the Manhood Tribe Show. My name's Don. I'm your host here at Manhood Tribes, and we are continuing in a series of discussions that we're having about men and leadership, and I'm really excited to have on the show today a good friend of mine, Brian Owen, who is. A performance coach, he's actually a meta performance coach, uh, which we're gonna talk a little bit about what that is and what meta performance is all about with Novus Global. Brian has had a 30 year career that has spanned all kinds of different areas, from nonprofit work to executive coaching, to donor engagement, staff development, church and ministry area. So he's. He's covered the gamut. Uh, he has a master's degree in spiritual formation and soul care and loves to work with individuals and teams by bringing insights from all different realms. Psychology, philosophy, theology, you name it. He's got expertise in all of it. Uh, and I think he's gonna do an incredible job today helping us out. We're gonna talk a lot about leadership and performance. Um, we're also gonna talk about team leadership, and so I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Brian. So glad that you're here today, man. Thanks for joining.

Brian Owen 1:04

Thanks, Don. Thanks for having me.

Don Ross 1:05

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's, uh, let's just get started. We'd love to get to know you a little bit. So tell us just kind of some, uh, about your story and how you kind of got into this coaching work.

Brian Owen 1:16

Well, you know, I have, my background is ministry. I've had 30 years working in church and parachurch settings, us and overseas, and I've always been interested in transformation. How do people grow? In Christlikeness, how do people become the best versions of themselves? And I noticed, I've always noticed that there's this gap. There's where we want to go, and then there's where we are. And then there's this space in between. And so the question is, what do you do with the space in between? How do you grow? How do you transform? And so my career really has always been about trying to understand that, how do we do that as individuals? How do we do that as teams? And so a natural next opportunity for me was to step into the world of executive coaching.

Don Ross 1:58

Yeah. Very cool. Uh, I love that. What in particular about coaching interests you the most? Like, how is it that you kind of saw that, like as a, a great transition from what you'd been doing and what kind of difference are you? Open to be able to make in, uh, in the lives of people that you coach.

Brian Owen 2:15

A few things. One is, and with coaching my audience is broader. It's not simply people in my congregation, the church, it's people in the wider world.

Don Ross 2:24

Yeah,

Brian Owen 2:25

the other thing is a lot of, uh, a lot of the helping spaces that I've been in, or that you might, your listeners might be familiar with, like counseling or therapy or pastoral counseling,

Don Ross 2:35

Uhhuh,

Brian Owen 2:36

with issues in the past and how they're impacting the present.

Don Ross 2:40

right.

Brian Owen 2:40

What coaching does is it talks about what does your future, what kind of future are you heading towards? Is it just a default future? That's just more of the same or a little bit of an incremental growth

Don Ross 2:52

Yeah.

Brian Owen 2:52

it look like to head into something completely different and coaching goes in that direction with, and so it, I was excited about the idea of not just simply dealing with our past and healing it for our present, but actually looking at the ways we can pursue a more thrilling future than the one we're just gonna end up arriving at anyway.

Don Ross 3:10

Uh, that's great. I, I think that's a beautiful, uh, definition of coaching as well, and just I love the kind of future centric nature of that. Um, that's, that's really helpful to sort of imagine what kind of role coaching can play in our lives and, and why it's maybe a little different than anything else we've encountered. Uh, I think that's fantastic.

Brian Owen 3:26

Yeah.

Don Ross 3:27

Um, okay. So you, uh, when you talk about kind of the coaching that you do, you call yourself a Meta performance coach, and I, I kinda love this title. I'm super interested in this. Um, but, you know, uh, as, as a guy who spends time on the internet and sees all this content for men out there, like the amount of stuff that's created for men that's targeted at quote unquote high performers, right? Like, everybody wants to be a high performer or think about themselves as a high performer or, you know, whatever. Like it's all targeted at high performing men, so Okay, great. But like, um, you're kind of going after something different. You'd say there's, there's like four levels of performers, low performers, just your general performers, high performers, and then what you're calling meta performers. So tell us, tell us more about that. What is meta performance? How is it different from high performance? Uh, why is that a, a another rung on the ladder that's even needed?

Brian Owen 4:14

Well, I would say it's not actually another rung on the ladder. It's in a different realm altogether.

Don Ross 4:19

Okay.

Brian Owen 4:20

With as much of the high performance stuff that we have coming in, and, and I see it as well, the crazy thing is that's actually a problem and that's why, um, we, we go after meta performance instead of high performance is, and you would think, well, wouldn't I want a company or a team full of high performers? And actually that can be a problem. One of the coaches in our firm, years ago when our firm was getting started, he was working with a Fortune 100 company and he said, you know, hey, what's with the C-suite? He, what's the problem that you guys are seeing? And they said, well, we have a bunch of high performers. And he said, no, what, what's

Don Ross 4:50

Yeah.

Brian Owen 4:50

problem? And no, that's the problem. Because what was, what they were realizing with, you've got a bunch of high performers, you end up with, a lot of people with kind of a diva complex. They've arrived.

Don Ross 5:02

Hmm.

Brian Owen 5:02

figured it out and at the same time, they're um, they're simultaneously, high performers are simultaneously overwhelmed and bored. They're

Don Ross 5:11

Hmm.

Brian Owen 5:11

because they feel like they've hit their capacity and they're bored because they're actually not.

Don Ross 5:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Owen 5:18

Yeah. And is not always conscious or intentional, but they become very perspective, not perspective protective of their spot on the team. So there can be kind of a dampening, clamping down effect on anybody else trying to rise. So you, it is crazy. You would think having a high performing team would be great, but it actually can create its own set of problems, which is why we talk about meta performance instead.

Don Ross 5:41

Okay. Uh, all right, you, you've got me interested. Um, I, I can see, uh, the reality of that, you know, on the different teams that I've been a part of. So tell us more about meta performance then. How is that a. A solution to the high performance problem, or, you know, how, how would you phrase it and characterize it in the way that you describe it.

Brian Owen 5:59

Well, I would, I would, I'd add a little more to it is like

Don Ross 6:01

Okay.

Brian Owen 6:02

there are different levels of performance. So you imagine in your mind a pyramid and at the bottom would be low performance. So low

Don Ross 6:07

Mm-hmm.

Brian Owen 6:08

are answering the question of what do I need to do in my job to not get fired?

Don Ross 6:12

Sure. Okay.

Brian Owen 6:14

You know, so

Don Ross 6:14

Yeah, we, we've all known a few of those.

Brian Owen 6:16

Yes, we have. Yeah, we do. Just what, what, what can I do to keep my job? That's it. And, you know, you do this in your personal life. Like, I low perform, uh, my breakfast in the morning. I just,

Don Ross 6:27

Yeah.

Brian Owen 6:27

I just, or I just want my coffee, you know,

Don Ross 6:29

Right.

Brian Owen 6:30

not out for, you know, something fancy from Starbucks. I just need caffeine.

Don Ross 6:34

Yeah.

Brian Owen 6:35

Performers are wanting to do a good job, to want do, to do a good job. So they wanna, they're not just, not just a minimum, but to do their job and, you know, do it well. I am, you know, I wanna per, I want do well on my taxes. So I'm not trying to be, you know, the gold star. You know, I don't definitely don't wanna underperform, I just wanna do it. Well,

Don Ross 6:52

Yeah.

Brian Owen 6:52

then high performers, they want to be the best. They wanna be the best at their field. And like I said, that can actually be a problem. Meta performers are answering a different question. High performers are asking, answering the question, how can I be the best meta performers are going after the question of what am I capable of?

Don Ross 7:10

Hmm. Okay.

Brian Owen 7:11

Yeah. So there are some questions we answer there are some questions we answer too. So the meta performance question of what am I capable of? That is a question you will answer to for the rest of your life.

Don Ross 7:24

Sure.

Brian Owen 7:25

Because

Don Ross 7:26

Yeah.

Brian Owen 7:26

also with the, the high performer, it's sort of like if you've ever been to a doll race or you know, or you know about a doll race, they're, they, they chase a rabbit. It's a mechanical rabbit. And if, if, and the, the idea is they can't catch the rabbit. That's what keeps 'em running.

Don Ross 7:39

Yeah.

Brian Owen 7:40

there have been times when the rabbit's caught and the dog don't know what to do.

Don Ross 7:43

Yeah. What happens then? Yeah.

Brian Owen 7:44

Yeah. And that's can be, that's kind of what can happen with the high performer problem is that you're chasing the rabbit and, well, once now you've got it. Well, and some, and even some high performers will. There's could be a psychological issue of not, not, not going, not, not exceeding too much because, well, what else is there? So it, it, it, you know, it, it creates the, it can really create a problem. So that's what's so exciting about meta performance is that question of what am I capable of? a rabbit you can chase for the rest of your life.

Don Ross 8:12

Yeah. No, I, I like that. And, uh, that's a really good, uh, kind of word picture analogy there of just sort of like the, the dog, uh, you know, chasing the rabbit around the track. It's like, how can I be the best at chasing the rabbit, which is, you know, that's what high performance looks like. Um, it's really different than like. Isn't there more to life than just chasing this rabbit,

Brian Owen 8:33

Yeah.

Don Ross 8:33

you know?

Brian Owen 8:34

And,

Don Ross 8:34

And what, what else could I be good at? You know, what else could I do that would make life meaningful? So, yeah, I think that's great.

Brian Owen 8:40

And, and it's not about like, um, meta performance is not high performance on crack,

Don Ross 8:46

Sure. Yep.

Brian Owen 8:46

it's not like super ultra high performance. It's, it's really doing more. less time with greater joy and satisfaction. It's

Don Ross 8:54

Hmm.

Brian Owen 8:54

it's not tightening the screws on the container of life that you've put together. It's Greek. It's constructing a different container together.

Don Ross 9:01

Yeah. Okay. I, I like that. Tell me, I want you to tell us a little bit more about what, uh, is attractive to you about this idea of meta performance. How have you seen this show up in your life or in the lives of coach, uh, clients that you've worked with as a coach? Like, how, how have you seen this be beneficial to kind of make this mind shift?

Brian Owen 9:21

Well, challenging 'cause it's, in some ways it's just easier to, you know, if, if you're already a high performer, it's easier in a sense to think, well, let me just tighten things up on

Don Ross 9:32

Mm-hmm.

Brian Owen 9:33

doing a little

Don Ross 9:34

Yeah.

Brian Owen 9:34

more than I did last year. you can certainly do that. And there are, there are places in my life that I do that. But what's exciting about meta performance is it's all about reinvention. It's all about, you know, expanding and, and so it's exciting when you, uh, you know, you know, I sit with a client, I have an entrepreneur, I'm coaching, and she, um. Sadly divorced and there were, you know, financial issues and, um, just, I've just seen a total reinvention in her life as she's discovered. The capacity that she has, the ability that she has that was just untapped and dormant and lying there. And she could have just kept going, you know, a little bit, doing a little bit better each year. But, but going through this process of reinvention and really looking at what is she, what are you really capable of, and how are you getting in your own way? It unlocks capacity that's just lying dormant.

Don Ross 10:24

Yeah.

Brian Owen 10:25

exciting to see in my own life and to see the life of my clients.

Don Ross 10:28

Very cool. Okay. I like this idea. Um, okay, so I, I do wanna talk a little bit about, um, team leadership, right? We're, we're talking about men and the different ways that we lead and, um, I, I think one of the things that guys find really challenging is just the whole area of. Of being a good team leader and what that, you know how to do that Well, I think especially because as it relates to performance, right? Most guys get into being a team leader because they have been a high performer, right? They get invited into management or leadership role of some kind. 'cause they've been a high performer and then they get into this leadership role and they keep trying to be a high performer and that isn't necessarily what helps them succeed as a team leader. Right.

Brian Owen 11:12

correct.

Don Ross 11:12

Um, so I'm kind of curious then, like what, uh, what does meta performance or kind of this context for meta performance offer in terms of the way that it can help a man think about being a better team leader?

Brian Owen 11:25

Well, what got you to where you are, you know, you've heard this, it won't take you to where you need to go.

Don Ross 11:31

Right.

Brian Owen 11:32

And so the, the challenge of leadership, you get into a role that you've been promoted into and you're able, you're excited about it. Oftentimes it's gonna require a different set of skills, and it's gonna require more capacity

Don Ross 11:47

Yeah.

Brian Owen 11:47

so what we're trying to do is to unlock that with meta performance. So really, and, and having that posture as a leader of, instead of, I've arrived, or, you know, I'm, I'm the best in what I'm, I'm doing, and I'm gonna hold to this position. Meta performance opens up this posture of, okay, I'm here. What else can I unlock? And it, and it, but it, and it's not simply a little bit of improvement. Again, it, it's a, it's a shift of, you know, who else, who can I, who else can I be? It's not, you know, you're, I love personality tests and that kind of thing, but they're, we can treat them like, that's just who we can treat them as, uh, descriptive or, or like, we can treat 'em like, you know, this is the box I'm in, instead of, that's that. Instead of treating it as that's the way you are now, but there's more possibilities beyond that.

Don Ross 12:38

Yeah.

Brian Owen 12:39

And

Don Ross 12:39

Yeah, that's, that's good. I like that. Um. Uh, keep that going. Then I'm kind of curious, like, uh, you know, as you talked about the sort of the pyramid and you've got, you know, different folks at different levels on your pyramid. Um, so as a, you know, let's say I'm a, I'm a guy leading my team. I've got a, and let's just try to, we'll just role play this a little bit. I've got, um, I've got somebody on my team that's a low performer. You know, like they're just trying to skate by just doing the bare minimum to keep their job. I got somebody that's a, you know, just kind of average performer, like doing their job, you know, b plus employee, like, you know, doing the thing, um, and doing just fine. And I've got maybe a little bit of a, um, an old guard, diva, high performer on the team as well. Like how in, in the way that, uh, you know, I'm approaching this from kind of the perspective of a. Somebody who's trying to live in this, the flow of meta performance. Um, you know, what does that look like? How do I, how do I think about engaging each of those team, team members, kind of where they're at and what am I trying to bring them to? Right? Like, I think based on what you're saying, the goal isn't necessarily to bring the low performer up to the high performer stage. Um, but what am I trying to do? You know, what, what does that look like?

Brian Owen 13:52

I think it starts with yourself. I think the most important thing a leader brings is his or her own transforming self. And I think you've gotta, you've need to be enrolled in the work yourself and, and in meta performance yourself, if you're wanting to bring that to your team. I think it starts there and. It's exciting when you think about if you've got a team and everybody is going after meta performance, like, what am I truly capable of? It can, that can, it can look like levels of synergy and, um, performance that might, you might just be stuck. Um, one of the, one of the things we introduce with when we, we come into organizations and we will work with teams. We talk about, uh, the importance of integrity. And when I say integrity. I imagine your audience is thinking it through a moral framework, and that's, that's one aspect of it, you know. Integrity being, you know, who you are when nobody's looking, that kind of thing. But I'm thinking of integrity as workability or thinking of, like if you're an engineer and you're building a bridge, you want that bridge to have structural integrity or workability. if you've got a bicycle and it has a flat and, um, the, the steering, the gears aren't working well. The, that bicycle lacks integrity. It lacks workability. You wouldn't say bad bike. It's, it's, no, it's just the bike is out of integrity.

Don Ross 15:15

Yeah.

Brian Owen 15:16

so when you

Don Ross 15:16

So kinda like all the pieces are integrated with one another. They fit, they're dependent on each other in some way. They're, yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm tracking with you there. Yeah.

Brian Owen 15:25

integrity that way. So if you've got a team of different levels of performers, if you all can get a commitment around integrity, uh, around, you know, figuring out what, what needs to be fixed and what needs to change. And I would start with the leader himself,

Don Ross 15:39

Okay.

Brian Owen 15:40

with your, that's why I say, you know, you, you lead it. The, the best thing you bring to your leadership is your own transforming self. If you're pursuing meta performance and the way I define it, and the sh the shifts that you need to make from high performance to meta performance, it will. It can't help but impact the system that you're part of. when you bring that to your, to your direct reports, it can change the way that you're working together and it can affect and bring integrity, uh, to your culture and to your company in ways that you haven't seen before. Uh.

Don Ross 16:07

Okay, so I, I, I like that because. Um, I think kind of the way you're talking about it, uh, makes me sort of feel like the, the move to meta performance and, and you sort of said this, but I'm, it's taken me a minute to kind of wrap my head around it. The move to meta performance really isn't a step up from high performance. It's a. Almost basically a step off of the pyramid to be able to kind of ask a different set of questions. So even your, even your low performer can start moving towards meta performance simply by asking the question or having, you know, you as their team leader ask them the question, what are you capable of? You know, that that's a, that's a really different framework than, um, what's expected of me, or how do I excel or, you know, those kinds of things that are sort of like on the pyramid type questions. Is, am I getting that right? Is that kind of tracking? Okay.

Brian Owen 16:56

way to think of it is, I, if I am, I imagine you're familiar with IKEA furniture. I have a household full of that. Um, you probably never had this happen, but you know, our, we have a piece of IKEA furniture that actually broke down, and so my,

Don Ross 17:11

That's never happen.

Brian Owen 17:12

yeah. So my, my wife said, you know, hey, the kids, the, the, the thing is broken. Can you fix it? And I said, sure. And so what I did was that it was cracked. I just tightened the screw on a cracked piece of Ikea

Don Ross 17:25

Yeah, sure.

Brian Owen 17:26

and you know, you know where this is going, you know, a few weeks, months later, you know, honey, you need to fix the, you know, 'cause

Don Ross 17:31

Yeah.

Brian Owen 17:31

not holding. So I take some glue to it now and I'm gonna glue the, glue it to hold it. What per meta performance is not the screws on your life.

Don Ross 17:45

Okay. Okay.

Brian Owen 17:46

It's throw, you know, out. It's throwing it's reinvention, it's throwing that out, throwing this, the container, the structure that that piece of ike f furniture out completely and building something new.

Don Ross 17:58

So it's not really about trying to grind out that last like. 10% of excellence that I may be missing if I'm a high performer. Um, you know, kind of whereas that like golden maximum output, you know, whatever that I like, we all kind of wish that we could get to without having to exhaust ourselves. Uh, it's, it's not that, uh,

Brian Owen 18:19

no.

Don Ross 18:20

it, yeah, it's just a different framework altogether, so.

Brian Owen 18:23

Yeah. It's

Don Ross 18:24

Yeah.

Brian Owen 18:24

that, it's like if you're playing a video game and you want to get, it's like getting to the next level of the video game.

Don Ross 18:29

Yeah. I got you. Okay.

Brian Owen 18:31

unlock some capacities and abilities that you didn't have. It's not, and you're not gonna necessarily be working. You're not, it's, it's not moving closer to burnout without crossing burnout. It's, it's a whole different posture and a way of performing.

Don Ross 18:43

Got it. Okay. So then as a team leader.

Brian Owen 18:47

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross 18:48

how would, how would you coach somebody, uh, in the like meta performance way of viewing things? Like, what kinds of questions would you ask them or, uh, you know, exercises, would you have them go through to be able to start figuring that out? Like. What am I capable of? I, if, if I'm, if I'm working in the corporate world, uh, you know, which at this point I am, that's not what I've done most of my career. But, you know, if I've been in the corporate world for a few years, no one's ever asked me that question before, right? That's, that's not a question that exists largely in the corporate world, where it's all about performance and excellence and output and productivity and, uh, you know, just, uh, what's expected of me, you know, and, and I wanna be the best at what's expected of me. So when somebody comes along and says, what are you capable of? I don't even know that I have a grid for that. So like how, how do you help somebody get to a place of being able to have some answers there?

Brian Owen 19:39

Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, 'cause we're really talking about a shift from efficiency to reinvention,

Don Ross 19:45

Mm-hmm.

Brian Owen 19:46

you know, and so it's. I wanna back up a little bit and just say this, what I, to even begin that kind to be in that kind of a place where you're like, okay, I'm open to this. There's some shifts that need to take place and that's what really gotta see what you know. So, you know, I would say that before I'm answering the question before know your question, it's more of, you know. The posture that you need to embody if you want to pursue meta performance, if you want to go in that direction, there are four shifts that you need to make.

Don Ross 20:22

Okay. All right. Let's take em.

Brian Owen 20:24

Yeah. You've gotta sh you've gotta shift your perspective. You, you do have to start with realizing, okay, I am far more capable than I realize. I always start with that assumption with my clients. 'cause you, I, I, I make up that no, we can't do surgery on ourselves. I wanna make up that they have more available to them than they realize than this,

Don Ross 20:41

Okay.

Brian Owen 20:41

already tapped into.

Don Ross 20:42

And what is that? You know, I, I'm assuming by that you don't mean like, I'm far more capable of. Being excellent at the thing that I'm already doing. Right. Like

Brian Owen 20:53

Right.

Don Ross 20:53

the kind of capability or capacity that you're talking about, so like what does that mean? I'm far more capable.

Brian Owen 20:58

Yeah. I mean, you could be, you know, you could be okay. I'm a, I'm a great communicator and I can, you know, I can hire a communications coach and get better at, with my illustrations or

Don Ross 21:06

Okay. Okay.

Brian Owen 21:07

But I'm there, there are actually capacities that you haven't even tapped into

Don Ross 21:11

Okay.

Brian Owen 21:11

that could be there. I make that up and I, we don't know. And so, you know, if you can either just assume that there's nothing there and just be, be, be satisfied with where you are or be more open to the possibility that there might actually be more there,

Don Ross 21:25

Yeah, sure. Okay. All right.

Brian Owen 21:27

can we mind? And then the other shift you need to make is a shift in perspective of your craft,

Don Ross 21:32

Okay.

Brian Owen 21:32

what you do. So, so high performers are focused on what they bring to the table in their job. Meta performance are thinking. Meta performers are wondering how big that table can get.

Don Ross 21:42

Okay. All right.

Brian Owen 21:44

There's, there's, you bring more to your job than you realize with your capacity in your job, you have more to offer your job because you have untapped capacity and your job has more to offer you.

Don Ross 21:54

Okay. All right. That's good. I like that. Kind of like, um, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm capable of a grander sandcastle and also the sandbox is, can be a lot bigger than the, you know, what limits have been placed on me at the moment, so, yeah.

Brian Owen 22:07

Yeah. Um, then there's a, there's a sh you need to shift your values.

Don Ross 22:12

Okay.

Brian Owen 22:12

love to be com. We all love to be comfortable, it. But you want to value growth over comfort. And, um, that's not always easy, uh, because we like to be comfortable and growth. Growth can be uncomfortable, but I, I love, um, what Ed Kamal said with Pixar. He said the head of Pixar, he said, every day I wake up with two assumptions. One is that I'm wrong about something, and two is that I have no idea what it is.

Don Ross 22:39

That's good.

Brian Owen 22:40

Yeah. And so that's somebody with a growth mindset. Who, who, who's, who's recognizes, you know, imagine if you were that way or your direct reports had that kind of a, a mindset is that I want, I wanna be, I wanna be more committed to growth than comfort.

Don Ross 22:55

so I'm willing

Brian Owen 22:56

to, to acknowledge you know, what I'm, there's something I'm blind to, I'm wrong about, and I have no idea what it is

Don Ross 23:01

Yeah. No, that's good.

Brian Owen 23:02

me into the fourth, um, thing you need to be is you need to be coachable. You know, you think, okay, well of course you're saying that you're an executive coach, but I just mean you just need to have, have, do you have somebody in your life that can help you explore what you're capable of? It can be your

Don Ross 23:18

Yeah.

Brian Owen 23:18

uh, a coworker, uh, a counselor, a pastor, uh, a 12 step sponsor, a coach, somebody in your life that's, that's, that can help you explore what you're capable of. And by coachable, I don't just mean that you're open to coaching. I think if you ask most high performers, are they coachable? would say yes. And what they mean by that is if someone wants to offer me feedback, I'm gonna be willing to receive it.

Don Ross 23:44

Okay.

Brian Owen 23:45

But when I say coachable, I mean that you're aggressively pursuing it out. So

Don Ross 23:50

Okay.

Brian Owen 23:51

are open to feedback, meta performers are aggressively hunting for it.

Don Ross 23:55

Okay. All right. I, I would say that's a different shift. I, I don't notice most of the, uh, high performers around me being people who pursue that kind of feedback. I, I would agree with kind of what you're saying. It's like, um, if there's somebody who comes along and says, Hey, uh, is it okay if I offer some feedback on how this is done? Rarely is somebody gonna say no? Um, they might be a little defensive about it, but, um, but you know, probably they got to being a high performer 'cause they were willing to receive some feedback in the first place. Um, but they're not really seeking it out. And folks, in fact, most high performers that I tend to be around are, um, far more comfortable, uh, dishing out the feedback. Right? They've, I mean, they kind of feel like, look, I've. Sort of mastered this set of skills or this particular expectation of the job. And, um, I, like, I'm good enough at it at this point that I can actually help other people be able to do it. You know, so they're the ones giving the feedback and uh, and not necessarily going and looking for any of it, you know?

Brian Owen 24:51

right. Which is why it would be tempting if any of your listeners are leaders in companies. It would be tempting for them to listen to what we're saying from the posture of, this is great. How can I change the people I all my low performers and sub okay performers and

Don Ross 25:06

Right.

Brian Owen 25:06

high performers. is why I'm like, start with yourself.

Don Ross 25:10

Sure.

Brian Owen 25:11

If you are a leader who is a meta performer and you've made these four shifts, they were, there's an undercurrent of humility there. If you're like,

Don Ross 25:18

Yeah.

Brian Owen 25:19

I have more capacity than I realized. My job has more to offer me. I'm willing to be uncomfortable and I'm aggressively seeking out feedback. That is a fundamental shift in how you're showing up

Don Ross 25:31

Yeah.

Brian Owen 25:31

leader.

Don Ross 25:32

Yeah.

Brian Owen 25:32

so, you know, back, I think back to your original question, how would I coach somebody in that? It's like, this is, I would, in it's first of all helping them realize this is the kind of coaching space that I'm inviting you into, where we're gonna be exploring untapped capacity in yourself, untapped resources at your job. I'm gonna invite you to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and we're gonna, we're gonna create a safe place for you to aggressively pursue and experience and receive feedback.

Don Ross 26:00

Okay, well, yeah, tell me some more about how then would, how does somebody who's not used to doing that actually go about it? Right? I mean, I'm sure they can get feedback from you as their coach, but you're also not the one living in their day-to-day realm, you know, uh, being aware of and seeing what's actually happening with them. So how do you encourage somebody to go and aggressively pursue that feedback? What does that actually look like?

Brian Owen 26:23

Well, I think it will look like regularly asking people in your life what's it like to be on the other side of me.

Don Ross 26:29

Okay. And is that just work people or family members? Like is it just dependent on the situation where you're trying to grow or It needs to be anybody.

Brian Owen 26:37

Well, what I find for me is if something is showing up anywhere, it's showing up everywhere.

Don Ross 26:43

Oh, okay. Good. I like that.

Brian Owen 26:45

Yeah. If there is a, if there's a pa, if there's something coming up for me at work, rarely is. Rarely are the the character issues or the leadership issues that I have been. Mirrors that have been held up to me at work. Rarely have they been something radically different from what my wife has been trying to get me to pay attention to

Don Ross 27:03

Sure. Yeah.

Brian Owen 27:04

Yeah.

Don Ross 27:05

If my coworkers think of me as a, yeah. If my, if my coworkers think of me as a, you know, uh, demanding boss with high expectations, my family is probably feeling that in some way, shape, or form as well. Right. It may not be a a, a one-to-one translation, but,

Brian Owen 27:20

Right.

Don Ross 27:20

but that sentiment is gonna show up. Yeah. I, I like that. I would agree.

Brian Owen 27:24

The reality though, is at work, if you know there's a power imbalance, so you know, your direct

Don Ross 27:29

Mm-hmm.

Brian Owen 27:29

aren't gonna feel safe giving you that kind of feedback. But if, but I, you're on a, you're on a team, your peers them the safety to do that, and then those, those, your supervisors and if you can create a, a space that's safe enough for your direct reports to do that, that can be a real gift to yourself as well. And to them, 'cause they're seeing it too.

Don Ross 27:49

Yeah.

Brian Owen 27:50

start with your peers and go from there.

Don Ross 27:53

Okay. And, uh, and what kind of things do we need to get feedback on? I mean, is it just, I'm assuming it's not just performance related, you're, you're kind of speaking more towards like character kinds of things here. Um, for somebody who's not used to, you know, again, in the corporate world where. Character's rarely a part of the conversation. Like how do you go about getting that type of feedback if you've never asked for it, or those kinds of conversations are foreign to your, uh, job environment or your team environment? What, what does that kind of look like?

Brian Owen 28:23

You know, I, I've been in organizations where we've had, you know, 360 reviews where they're anonymous and, and there is a place for your direct reports to give feedback on how you're showing up your character, your follow through. You know, I think in the work environment, I think it can be really helpful. Just to look at how you're doing with your commitments, how you're doing with your, with your word, what you're giving your word to. So we talk with clients about committing, when we say commitment, it's doing what you say you're gonna do when you say you're gonna do it. And just even making a distinction between what you're committed to and what you're interested in. like, if you're having a conversation at work with direct reports or peers or you know, higher ups. Just getting clear on what everybody, what, what they're, what they're interested in, and what there's a commitment to, and getting clear on that commitment and then following through. And then if there's a breakdown, they can often be like, oh, I'm sorry I didn't follow through. Oh, it's okay. Well, it is actually not okay because you gave your

Don Ross 29:23

Mm-hmm.

Brian Owen 29:24

and there's been a breakdown. But to, but if teams that can create systems where when there's been a breakdown and a commitment and they, the, the broken commitment can be acknowledged and then. This is hard and it stings, but this is where the power is, is to ask what was the impact of me breaking that commitment

Don Ross 29:42

Hmm. Okay.

Brian Owen 29:43

and then then giving people the space to say that and then, and then the chance for you to go, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna recommit to this now. That that can, as you begin to do that process, it can end and begin to follow through on your commitments. It will increase trust among your team members and trust with yourself because, so how often do we say we're gonna do something and we tell ourselves we're gonna do it, and then we don't do it?

Don Ross 30:08

Yeah.

Brian Owen 30:08

break commitments to ourselves, but as we learn to make commitments and keep them for ourselves, it increases our self trust.

Don Ross 30:15

Yeah.

Brian Owen 30:15

we start doing that with the people around us. And if there's just a system for, um. When commitments do break down to repair it, to, to, to acknowledge the broken commitment, ask for the impact, and, and re and then recommit to it. That, that, that repair process. If you, if, if you've got a culture where that's what's happening over time, where there's a. A commitment to integrity workability, a commitment to follow through and to, you know, and then when commitments are broken, a process of repair, it can change the environment of a team. So as far as feedback goes, just being willing to get feedback on your how, how your a, oftentimes this is what will come up in work environments, a lack of commitment, late to meetings, a lack of follow through. And, and I would start there and that's where things can really change.

Don Ross 31:02

Okay. The, uh, this is where I think it, it gets really fun because now you start talking about the kind of stuff that we all deal with on a daily basis in our work environments, right? And it's like, uh, you're kind of saying like, these, uh, these things that are like minor or trivial are actually kind of the puzzle pieces that reveal. Where we can go deeper into, uh, you know, dealing with someone's, not just performance, but you know, their way of being.

Brian Owen 31:27

Yeah.

Don Ross 31:28

uh, and in doing that, actually begin to see some real change. Watch the team dynamics get healthier. Um, and so I I love that it is, it's kind of like, um, it's a little bit like a treasure hunt, right? Like you're kind of unlocking the secrets of, uh, what's really going on with the people on your team and, and not in like a, you. Uh, a weird or inappropriate way. I just mean like, um, you know, you're, you're revealing the things that hold your team back from being able to be as great as it could be. Um, but you're not just having to come at it from the perspective of a performance improvement plan. You know, it, uh, it's actually about like a, Hey, let's, let's explore that. Let's figure out what's going on there and why

Brian Owen 32:05

Yeah.

Don Ross 32:05

consistently 15 minutes late at the start of the workday, or when, uh, you know, I, I'm dealing with one, uh, right now at work where. We, um, we, you know, we're kind of on a cycle where we've got team members kind of in and out at the moment, either on vacation or different things like that. And so people on our team just have to share responsibilities with each other on the team when we're out of the office. And inevitably there's a couple folks on the team that nobody wants to hand stuff off to when they used to. Step out of the office because they know it's not gonna get done if I hand it off to them. Right. So, uh, but so the rest of us, uh, kinda end up being the only people who can stand in the gap when somebody is out of the office and kind of fill in for them. And that's not right. That's not okay. That's, I think that's a, a great example of kind of what you're talking about, like a broken commitment. You know, there ought to be that same level of shared commitment across the team. But there isn't. And recognizing that is sort of the first step in, in really figuring out like, okay, here's a, here's a place where, um, this can reveal what's going on for us team performance wise and, uh, and, and could be an opportunity to kind of help take us to the next level. But we've gotta be willing to go there. And that's, that's hard to do. Yeah.

Brian Owen 33:11

can I, show you an example of something we saw with this?

Don Ross 33:14

Yeah. I.

Brian Owen 33:15

this, you know, being late can sound trivial. One of the things we do with clients is in the coaching space, we're creating a container for transformation and we're, we're we, we have agreements, and some of them sound like a bit much, but there's a purpose for them. For, for example, when we set up our coaching agreements with clients, we say our meeting starts at X and we could, anything over one minute beyond the start time is late. And that's a broken commitment.

Don Ross 33:41

Hmm. Okay.

Brian Owen 33:42

That and that. So we, so we won't, we won't let it go. We will, we will bring it up and you might think, okay, that's ridiculous. It's just a minute. Why would you do that? Yet we love broken commitments. that sounds crazy because of what that can reveal. It can

Don Ross 33:57

One of

Brian Owen 33:57

Yeah. our coaches had a client he was working with, and this client was more than a minute late to the meeting. And so the coach addressed it. And this is not to shame. It's not, this is not this, this is not about shame or condemnation. This is

Don Ross 34:10

about exploration

Brian Owen 34:11

What can we find here? Is there a, is there a resource here behind the broken commitment? Is there a pattern? As they taught, they realized that this was a pattern for this client, it was a pattern in his company. And it was a pattern with their, uh, the, the, the struggle to get accounts paid, receivables taken care of, solving this broken commitment of being late to a meeting. Saved this client's company $800,000 that year.

Don Ross 34:39

Okay.

Brian Owen 34:40

All

Don Ross 34:40

That's a, that's a pretty significant, uh, impact to bottom line, right?

Brian Owen 34:44

right. He was a minute just because. uh, they, he, this client was willing to be, to grow, to be coachable, to explore what he was capable of and discover what can we unearth underneath that broken commitment. And there was a pattern that was unearthed, a gap that was closed and revenue sort, you know,

Don Ross 35:04

Yeah.

Brian Owen 35:04

accounts that weren't being collected on were taken care of. All because of just something as simple as that because it's, it's, it's a symptom of something big.

Don Ross 35:11

Yeah. Okay. This is, uh, this is really good stuff. I think this is super helpful work. It, uh, it, it, I think it's, it's so intentional to just be able to say, yeah, if you want to be a good leader of your team, you've got to be a good leader of yourself. Right? It really does have to start there. And, um, but I, I love this model though, because it's essentially saying like. The work that I do with myself is the same work that I can then do with my team. And so it just translates really well into be being able to say like, uh, you know, my team's performance doesn't just have to be all about skill acquisition, you know, or bottom line productivity. It really can be about, Hey, I care about you and I want to, I want to with you, ask this question of what are you capable of and let's, let's figure out, and in some ways that might. You know, reveal some situations of like, well, you, you could be capable of this, but here's a couple things that are in the way of that, and let's, let's talk about why those things are in the way, you know, and, and why is it that you struggle with being late or, you know, whatever the situation might be. Um, but it, it just opens the door for some of those kinds of conversations that are so hard to have in a corporate environment. Um, but really can, I think, be the kind of the, the secret code that unlocks, uh, you know, building truly great teams and being a great leader. So, uh, yeah. I, I really like this.

Brian Owen 36:31

absolutely.

Don Ross 36:32

anything else that you want to add there or things that we haven't covered that you would wanna throw in?

Brian Owen 36:36

Um. I believe in this work because of what it's done in my own life.

Don Ross 36:42

Yeah.

Brian Owen 36:43

I would, I would say that, that this is, I, um. You know, I, I just, just for my own, just to tell my own story, like I, you know, you know me from the, the, the, the faith world, the ministry we were both part of. I was very, I was by all outward appearances successful. I was great at fundraising. I was leading a team. I was well trained, well seasoned and, and many ways doing quite well. But in my personal life, I was not doing really well. I was in my late thirties. I was still single, and I had gone to graduate school in this program, spiritual Formation and Soul Care, all about. Closing gaps. How do we grow into Christ's likeness, become the best version of ourselves? And program, there were times I thought, what on earth did I sign up for? Because they required you to deal with your junk. They required you, it was a, it was not a comfortable environment. It was an environment of growth, a lot of coaching, a lot of feedback. They required us to go to therapy. For six months. And that therapy was so helpful. I went another 12. But one of the things that we talked about in that, that space was, you know, my therapist and, you know, my grad program is like, I'd love to meet somebody. I am really successful here, but I'm not successful here. And

Don Ross 37:49

Mm-hmm.

Brian Owen 37:49

my therapist said to me, he said, you know, why don't you go back to the girls you used to date, ask them why they, why that relationship ended. Get some

Don Ross 37:59

Who? That's tough. Yeah.

Brian Owen 38:04

And I did, you know, and it was helpful. We were, 'cause we're trying to look for patterns and it was in that season of life, uh, that I met my wife and we've now been together, you know, for 18 years. We've got three kids there is still more to unlock. I

Don Ross 38:20

Yeah,

Brian Owen 38:21

a coach because I'm well into midlife. We've got, you know, two teenagers and a 12, almost 13-year-old. And the door slamming in our house, we, yeah, it's crazy. But

Don Ross 38:31

same. Same brother. Yeah, I can relate.

Brian Owen 38:34

so I'm just saying that I've seen this in my own life. I was, I was high performing in ministry

Don Ross 38:40

Yeah.

Brian Owen 38:41

well in so many ways and successful, and there was more to unpack there. I had blind spots in my relationships and I needed, I needed help getting, going after that and through putting myself in a space where I was uncomfortable and coached, I saw growth and transformation, and I now have a family, and years later, there's still more.

Don Ross 39:03

Yeah.

Brian Owen 39:03

so I'm inviting, I invite my clients into a journey that I was on, and I'm still on because I've,

Don Ross 39:11

Uh,

Brian Owen 39:11

yeah,

Don Ross 39:12

of us are done ever, right? I mean, it's, there's not a finish line there. Um, but I love that this framework is really one that can, uh, morph and grow with you. You know, that as there's always things to continue to work on. It's not just about, uh, moving up to the next level of the pyramid. Uh, it's, it's really just continually unlocking that sense of. What am I capable of? And, uh, and, and being able to go, you know, with that question kind of wherever it leads, wherever God leads in, uh, in the midst of that particular question, I think is a great way to follow him as well. So, um, well said, man. This has been really good. Uh, guys, uh, who are listening, if they are thinking, okay, uh, this Brian Guy sounds incredibly awesome, um, I'm ready for some meta performance coaching, uh, or even just want to explore more about it, hear more about it from you. What, what can they do? Where can they find you? How can they get in touch with you?

Brian Owen 40:00

They can go to my website. It's Brian Owen coaching.com. I spell Brian with an I, so Brian Owen coaching.com, and there's a link in the top right corner to book a discovery call and we can, we can jump on a call for a few minutes. I can tell you what it's like. My favorite thing to do is to serve prospective clients with a vision call. We'll do an hour where we can, you know, unpack, you know, where are you at in your life, what are you going after, how are you getting in your own way? And just, I love to just offer that as a gift to

Don Ross 40:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Owen 40:26

the work and to see if we might be a fit to work together.

Don Ross 40:29

Perfect. So guys, uh, even if you're not thinking long-term, coaching is the thing for you. Uh, a free one hour vision call is a offer that's too good to pass up. So, um, get in touch with Brian, um, and, uh, I encourage you to schedule some time with him and see what you can do to, um, find out what you're capable of. Uh, this is a fantastic way to be able to continue to grow as men. Brian, thanks so much for being on the show today. It's been really, really good to have you and, uh, blessings to you man as you continue to do this work.

Brian Owen 40:55

Thanks. Great being with you, Don. Appreciate

Don Ross 40:57

Yep. All right.