Men Don't Need Programs—They Need This Instead

Most churches want to reach men—but very few actually know how.

In this conversation with Chris Harper (Chief Storyteller at Better Man), we're taking a deep dive into mens ministry and the broader men's leadership space, exploring how you can cultivate christian manhood and grow in your faith. This series will help you understand what it truly means to be a christian man.

Chris shares insights from equipping over 7,500 churches and 1 million men, unpacking the real crisis underneath modern masculinity: not passivity—but ignorance, lack of guidance, and the absence of spiritual fathers.

In this episode, we cover:
 - Why men have left the church—and why the church has also left men
 - The shift from “passivity” to “ignorance” in today’s men
 - The importance of clarity and community in forming men
 - What churches get wrong about men’s ministry
 - Why the senior pastor’s presence changes everything
------------------------------
📝 Take the Quiz: How Manly Are You? https://bit.ly/3Pfx7SA
Find out how manly you really are and see where you stand compared to other men

📖 Get the Book: How To Be a Man https://amzn.to/4cm2epl
Discover the 5 Marks of Manhood and start leading with strength and purpose
------------------------------
#ManhoodTribes #MensMinistry #Leadership #ChristianMen #Discipleship

Episode 077: Chris Harper (Better Man)

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
01:00 Calling the church back to men
06:00 From passivity to ignorance
11:00 Why men are “active but directionless”
15:30 Men and the need for guidance
20:30 Why modern men want what actually works
28:00 Why men don’t stay engaged
32:30 Why most church programs miss men
38:00 Final thoughts on rebuilding men in the church
40:00 Comment prompt
Welcome to the Manhood Tribe Show! I'm Don, your host, and I'm excited to guide you through our upcoming series of episodes. We're taking a deep dive into mens ministry and the broader men's leadership space, exploring how you can cultivate christian manhood and grow in your faith. This series will help you understand what it truly means to be a christian man.

💪 Want to know how you measure up as a man? Take our free quiz, called How Manly Are You? and learn how you can get better at being a man. Download for free at manhoodtribes.com/manly. 💪

Transcript

Don Ross 0:02

Guys, welcome to the Manhood Tribe Show. I'm Don, I'm your host, and as always, I'm really, really glad that you are here. I'm especially excited for this new, uh, section of episodes that we have coming up here over the next few weeks here on the Manhood Tribe Show. Uh, we're gonna take a little bit of a. Deep dive into men's ministry and the men's leadership space and find out more about just what's going on in that world and how you can grow and benefit from it. And so today, helping me kick things off, I'm really excited to have Chris Harper Harp as he's also known. From Better Man. Uh, really glad to have Harp here with us. He is a speaker, writer and disciple maker serving as the chief storyteller. I love that title, by the way. Uh, of Better Man, uh, equipping more than 7,500 churches and over a million men. Better man is calling the church back to men. Okay. I love the bio and I actually, I, I wanna start there, harp with that phrase, calling the church back to men. Tell me, tell me what you guys mean by that and, and what does that look like in terms of what you do at Better Man?

Chris Harper 1:09

Yeah. Such a, such a good question, and thanks again, brother, for having me on. It's

Don Ross 1:13

Yeah.

Chris Harper 1:13

an honor to be here with you, but, uh, in large scale, you know, uh, men have abandoned the church, and church have abandoned men. To be, be a man and to be successful in the church today, basically show up, tithe, help park cars, and we'll make you a deacon.

Don Ross 1:30

Yeah.

Chris Harper 1:31

a while, the bar is, the bar is very low, and I don't say that as a critic. Um, years ago, I told someone I don't, I, I don't criticize the church. I just think critically about the church.

Don Ross 1:42

Yeah.

Chris Harper 1:43

Uh, I'm a churchman. Uh, I'm a pastor. I'm a, uh, I believe in the local church. Matter of fact, the local church is the vehicle. God's ordained to win the world.

Don Ross 1:52

Yeah.

Chris Harper 1:52

and one of the biggest problems I have with Parachurch Ministries like my own, that sometimes we try to outshine the church. And, uh, I, I, I equate that to going to a wedding where the bride's made try to outshine the bride. That'd be a terrible wedding.

Don Ross 2:07

Yep.

Chris Harper 2:07

Um,

Don Ross 2:08

Brad would not appreciate that.

Chris Harper 2:09

she wasn't. No, she wasn't. So, so, so we really are here to make the church, you know, better the. The church is more beautiful. The bride is more beautiful when the men are more godly

Don Ross 2:20

Yeah.

Chris Harper 2:21

um, um, but what has happened is the church has failed to paint a target for men. Uh, we don't, we don't really, uh, communicate. What it means to be a man, God's man in

Don Ross 2:35

Yeah.

Chris Harper 2:36

century.

Don Ross 2:37

Yeah.

Chris Harper 2:37

so what we did at Better Man, uh, five, six years ago, uh, we took the wisdom and we took the history of Robert Lewis and Men's Fraternity. And we basically, uh, rewrote, redesigned, repackaged, everything to reach millennials and Gen Z

Don Ross 2:53

Okay.

Chris Harper 2:54

speak to the 21st century man. And, and we give church, uh, a working definition. there's 350,000 churches in North America, give or take a few. 80% have a functioning ministry to women. Less than 10% have a functioning ministry to men.

Don Ross 3:12

Yeah.

Chris Harper 3:13

Uh, so what we did to better

Don Ross 3:14

Wild.

Chris Harper 3:15

you know, it's, it's, it's insane, especially when men are the high tide that raises all ships. Like,

Don Ross 3:20

Yeah.

Chris Harper 3:20

get better, everything generally gets better.

Don Ross 3:23

Yeah. Yeah,

Chris Harper 3:24

Uh, it, it's, it's one of the few things that actually the sacred and secular world agree on. Uh, we don't, we don't agree on a lot of things, but even the, even the secular world recognizes that most of our societal problems go away. When, when, when men are more morally sound, ethically sound, et cetera. So

Don Ross 3:41

Yeah.

Chris Harper 3:42

anyways, that's that, that's what we did, man. We created a two year turnkey, uh, ministry to men option, uh, that we, that we give to the local church. And it, it basically gives them a kickstart or it can recre catalyze their ministry to men. And, uh, man, we've been, we've been super blessed over the last five years. Uh, we're actually getting ready to break, 10,000 churches who have adopted the plan, adopted the model.

Don Ross 4:06

Wow. Yeah. That's awesome.

Chris Harper 4:07

Yeah, we're gonna celebrate that. Excited, you know, uh, we've got a, we've got a better man in all 50 states and 60 different countries and just kind of, just kind of praising the Lord today for what he is doing.

Don Ross 4:18

Very cool man. That, I mean, that's incredible and, uh, I mean, good on you guys for continuing to just follow the Lord's leading and, and making those things happen. Uh, I I think it's incredible. I mean, I do think, uh, there's such a need for. That kind of work being done in churches, but I mean, just in particular in the lives of men, um, it, it seems really difficult to make those things work, uh, in a church context and, uh, and, and yet at the same time, the, the need is just tremendous. So, uh, thank you guys for the work that you do. Okay. So I, I, I do want to ask kind of related to that, like, one of the things I'm just sort of most curious about as it relates to the men's. You know, kind of world or ministry space at the moment is, you know, exactly what you mentioned, just kind of that stat about fewer than 10% of churches have a functioning or active men's ministry. And I'd love to get your take on like, why is that? Why is it, you know, when, when we know how important it is for reaching men, when, you know churches are not ignorant of that fact. Like what's your take on why that's such an issue?

Chris Harper 5:20

Yeah. Yeah. Again, another great question. There's, there, there's really two factors. one is, one is more historical and then one is. More societal. So from a historical standpoint, you know, the height of ministry to men really was in the nineties, the early to mid nineties. You had, you know, pat Morley with Man In the Mirror. You had Steve Ferra with Point Man. His widow Mary is a good friend of mine, Steve. Steve is one of my spiritual heroes. You had my predecessor, Robert Lewis Men's

Don Ross 5:56

Yeah,

Chris Harper 5:56

to raise a Modern Day Night. You had promise keepers standing in the

Don Ross 5:59

right. Yeah,

Chris Harper 6:00

I mean, it was, it was massive. And, and the enemy then was passivity that, you know, and, and I don't mean to over generalize it, but that's

Don Ross 6:08

sure.

Chris Harper 6:09

was writing and talking about.

Don Ross 6:10

Yeah.

Chris Harper 6:11

passivity, fight, passivity. You had a

Don Ross 6:13

Yeah.

Chris Harper 6:13

men knew how to be men. Call 'em up, you know, all that jazz. So fast forward now 35 years, the number one enemy is no longer passivity. The number one

Don Ross 6:23

Hmm

Chris Harper 6:23

ignorance.

Don Ross 6:24

Hmm.

Chris Harper 6:25

We had

Don Ross 6:25

Tell me more about that.

Chris Harper 6:26

yeah, we had an entire generation and now almost two generations of young men grow up without a guide.

Don Ross 6:32

Yeah.

Chris Harper 6:33

You know, 39% of millennials did not have a father in the home,

Don Ross 6:37

Yeah.

Chris Harper 6:38

have a physical father in the home. Um, that doesn't include young men like me. Um, I grew up with a dad in the home, but, but I'm what you call a functional orphan. I had a

Don Ross 6:50

Hmm.

Chris Harper 6:50

but he was emotionally, spiritually, physically detached.

Don Ross 6:53

Yeah.

Chris Harper 6:53

Like he spent the most of his time drinking beer in a garage, you know,

Don Ross 6:57

Yeah.

Chris Harper 6:57

of

Don Ross 6:57

Yep.

Chris Harper 6:59

That also doesn't include a lot of young men who grew up in the church in the nineties. I called them spiritual orphans. They, they got a lot of pizza and basketball, but they didn't really get discipled.

Don Ross 7:10

Yep. Yep.

Chris Harper 7:12

So.

Don Ross 7:13

was fun. It wasn't always much else. Yeah. I.

Chris Harper 7:15

that's right. So we contend that, that if you add actual orphans, orphans and spiritual orphans together, somewhere between 70 and 80% of all young men today didn't have a guide.

Don Ross 7:29

Yeah, yeah,

Chris Harper 7:29

it's not, it's not that we're passive, um, and in, in fact, brother like. Millennials and Gen Z are actually fairly active. We have a motor, like we'll get behind social causes. Um, we'll hold rallies, you know, we will have, we'll have gatherings like, like

Don Ross 7:49

yeah,

Chris Harper 7:50

like to go. The problem is we have no idea where we're going

Don Ross 7:54

yeah, yeah.

Chris Harper 7:55

we're just kind of out here blind.

Don Ross 7:57

Yeah.

Chris Harper 7:58

And, and, and, and so the church, they haven't flipped the switch yet, so they're still talking to men as if they're passive

Don Ross 8:07

Yeah.

Chris Harper 8:07

and, and it's, it, it's actually more offensive than it is anything else. And instead, what they should be doing is providing us, you know, spiritual fathers guides, bringing back multi-generational discipleship. We've aged and staged everything.

Don Ross 8:24

Yeah.

Chris Harper 8:25

the Sunday morning is the most segregated time in our, in our country. Uh, we have the fools leading the fools.

Don Ross 8:32

Yeah.

Chris Harper 8:33

you know, I call it, call it mentorship, I call it interpreting. So, so think about

Don Ross 8:39

Hmm.

Chris Harper 8:39

Chris Harper. I'm 43. I've got four kids. I've been married for almost 17 years now. living in a story and, and I like to think my story is novel, but it really isn't. It's the same old story,

Don Ross 8:55

Yeah.

Chris Harper 8:56

The problem is, I don't know how to interpret it I'm living in it.

Don Ross 9:00

Yeah.

Chris Harper 9:00

men who have lived that story to come back and help me interpret my story, and I don't have

Don Ross 9:05

Right. Yeah.

Chris Harper 9:06

you know, and, and as you, you know, you might've heard me teach on this before, but any man that doesn't have a guide, he'll do one of three things. He'll either guess and nine outta 10 times he's gonna guess wrong and break a bunch of stuff in the way. Uh, he'll listen to the loudest voice in culture.

Don Ross 9:23

Yep.

Chris Harper 9:23

thing he'll do, which is why Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, everybody follows these guys.

Don Ross 9:29

Yep.

Chris Harper 9:30

or third, which is the, which is the saddest, is he'll just slow quit his manhood and masculinity

Don Ross 9:36

Yeah.

Chris Harper 9:37

just kind of fade into non-existent. So, so the church needs to come alive to that. They, they, they need to recognize, hey, we're, we're not just a bunch of. Passive men. We, we actually want to go, we wanna serve, we wanna love our lot wives, well, we wanna raise our children in godly homes. We just don't know how,

Don Ross 9:54

Yeah.

Chris Harper 9:55

no one really showed us. So that would be the, that would be the historical reason. The societal reason, and I'm just going to, I'm just gonna be playing with it. It's because women and children are a lot easy to pastor than men.

Don Ross 10:08

Hmm.

Chris Harper 10:09

So,

Don Ross 10:10

Ouch.

Chris Harper 10:11

for the, yeah. Yeah. It just, it, and, and you know, I, I get pushback all the time, but it, I mean, it's, it, it is what it is.

Don Ross 10:18

Yeah.

Chris Harper 10:18

50 years, we, we, the church has consciously and unconsciously been catering to women and children.

Don Ross 10:24

Hmm.

Chris Harper 10:25

And, um, and you see it in the aesthetics. You see it in the songs we sing. You see it in the programming. you know, e even at my own church, right? I was. was in the, I was in the bathroom, and I don't know why we, we always have to hang the men's events above the urinal.

Don Ross 10:41

Yeah.

Chris Harper 10:41

you know, I, I, I, I took, I took a picture of one last week and I told my wife, probably in the Guinness Book of World Records. My face has been, uh, and above as many urinals as anybody else. It's just unbelievable.

Don Ross 10:56

Uh, not really the record you probably hoped to be known for, but you know, you're at least there.

Chris Harper 11:01

Exactly, exactly. So, but, but, but I took a picture of our spring offerings. Right. And, and brother, I kid you not, it said, it said, help park cars, be on the security team and be a door greeter. And, and, and I, and, and I know my pastor, he's my friend. So I took a picture and sent it to him. said, bro, if this didn't have our church logo on it, it would be an advertisement for Walmart.

Don Ross 11:27

Yeah.

Chris Harper 11:27

Door greet, park cars, be on the security team. I'm like,

Don Ross 11:31

Yeah, right.

Chris Harper 11:32

more.

Don Ross 11:33

Just need a, you know, cart pusher

Chris Harper 11:34

That's it.

Don Ross 11:35

to add to the list. That's, that's really it.

Chris Harper 11:37

we have eight women's bible studies.

Don Ross 11:39

Yeah.

Chris Harper 11:40

seven events for children. And, and, and that's because truly. It's just easier. They're, they're, they're, they're more relationally inclined, they're more emotionally inclined. So

Don Ross 11:49

Yeah.

Chris Harper 11:50

I'm, I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said for years now. Um, but those two things have kinda what isolated men from the church.

Don Ross 11:57

Yeah. Now, uh, gosh, man, there's, uh, there's a million things that, uh, that you've said that I'd love to, you know, go in different directions and ask questions about. But all of that is, uh, tremendously good. I think that's, that's such helpful insight. I, I think in particular what you're saying about the lack of guides in our culture, that's something that we talk a lot about here at Manhood Tribes, uh, and in, in kind of a twofold sense, right? That like. We haven't had any kind of spiritual guidance really, uh, as men. But we also, like, lately, in the past, you know, couple generations haven't really had much guidance just as men. What does it mean to be a man? You know, like how, what, what does masculinity actually look like? And we're so confused and topsy-turvy over all that in our culture right now. Um, and, you know, and one of the things that I tend to talk about is that the church has gotten the cart before the horse on this one a little bit, and that we continue to try to answer the question of what does a biblical man look like? Uh, when most of our, especially younger men in our culture are really asking more of the question of what is a man? Just like, can we just start with the baseline please? Like, I need to really understand masculinity in general before you can feed me a definition of biblical masculinity. Right.

Chris Harper 13:06

good.

Don Ross 13:06

Obviously that's gonna be something good and something I want to attain to, but, uh, I, I can't start at Z if I don't understand a

Chris Harper 13:14

That's really good.

Don Ross 13:14

uh, you know. So I, I appreciate you what you're saying. I think that kind of guidance is so needed and, uh, and so lacking in the way that we talk about men's ministry and even just speak to men in our church, you know, kinda like you're saying, we, we call 'em to things that feel like they are, uh, you know, minimum wage jobs. Um, or we call them to be excellent. At, uh, being a husband and a father, which is great, but is that all there is to being a man, you know, is just being a husband and a father? You know, what if I'm single and don't have kids? Or what if my kids are out of the house and, you know, I'm in a stage of life where that isn't really what's primarily my day-to-day is about. Anyway, you got me preaching now, but. Oh gosh, man, I hear you. Uh, I hear you. And, and I, I just, you know, it makes me, uh, hungry to see churches really kind of grasp that idea of what you're talking about, of our, our guys are, are begging for some guidance. I mean, literally begging for it. Uh, and if we could just kind of step into that gap, uh, I think that would be super, super helpful.

Chris Harper 14:09

And, and the church needs to recognize that if we don't, someone else will.

Don Ross 14:13

Right. You know, hence Joe Rogan and Chris Williamson and, you know, all of those guys like Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Chris Harper 14:18

They're, I mean, they're, they're killing it because the church isn't, you know, and, and the ironic thing is. We're the ones that actually have the way,

Don Ross 14:28

Yeah.

Chris Harper 14:28

I mean, Jesus said, I'm the way, the truth to life. Like, like, like we're, we actually have the answer. And, you know, not saying that, that Joe Rogan doesn't say some helpful things. Sometimes he does, Jordan

Don Ross 14:39

Yeah.

Chris Harper 14:39

says some helpful things. Sometimes Andrew Tate's just an idiot. Everybody needs to stop listening to

Don Ross 14:44

Yeah.

Chris Harper 14:45

but, but like, there are men out there that, that say some helpful things. But when it comes down to your point, when it comes down to like the answer. The, the sad thing is we, Christians actually possess it and, and it's just, I mean, it's disheartening that we're not, that we don't, that we're not able to bring more into

Don Ross 15:02

Right. We're not standing up with it, uh, as, as confidently as we could. Yeah. No, that's good. Okay. I, I want to go back. Uh, you touched on a little bit when you were kind of talking about the history, uh, and, and I just want, I want to connect here for a moment because, uh, one of my very early forays into just understanding anything as it related to men's ministry was actually through men's fraternity. So my like. Freshman year in college, uh, as a, you know, young 18-year-old, uh, I actually went through, I was involved in a campus ministry in college, and we went through the men's fraternity material together. And, you know, at that point in time, I, I didn't, I mean, there was no like men's ministry, you know, it was just kind of like, here was a Bible study and we're gonna do it together as guys,

Chris Harper 15:45

Yep.

Don Ross 15:45

we were talking about these things, you know, this idea of reject, passivity and accept responsibility and, you know, like all this stuff was new to me. I had not. Heard any of that before I grew up, you know, probably very similarly to you, and I think a lot of guys in our generation of, you know, kind of the, uh, physically present, but in most other ways absent father figure. And, uh, and so yeah, that whole concept of here, here's what masculinity looks like, and especially here's what it looks like in terms of following Jesus. Um, I'm kind of curious, you know, you, you talked about sort of like repackaging that. For, um, millennials and Gen Z, I'd love to know like, what about that message, like still does resonate? Um, and you know, like, what, what about it? What do you, what do you see of guys today, um, that's caused you to kind of like shift directions a little bit?

Chris Harper 16:29

yeah, yeah. A couple things, you know, so culture, what they've tried to do, and unfortunately the church has bought into some of it, is paint the, the opposite of masculinity as femininity.

Don Ross 16:43

Hmm.

Chris Harper 16:44

So that's where you have some of this hyper alpha male type

Don Ross 16:47

Sure. Yeah.

Chris Harper 16:48

and all that. That's, that. This stuff's so unhealthy. So, so, you know, the opposite of being a man is being a woman. Well, that's not true. Like, especially according to scripture, biblical manhood and biblical womanhood are two distinct categories, both to the

Don Ross 17:01

Yeah.

Chris Harper 17:01

of God,

Don Ross 17:02

Right.

Chris Harper 17:03

right? So the, the opposite of actually masculinity is immaturity.

Don Ross 17:09

Hmm.

Chris Harper 17:10

That's the opposite. Um, you know, and, and, and a lot of that resonated with, with the men's fraternity stuff.

Don Ross 17:17

Yeah, yeah,

Chris Harper 17:18

great at, you know, as Paul said, when I became a man, I stopped acting like a child and stopped

Don Ross 17:22

yeah,

Chris Harper 17:23

child and started thinking like a man. So it's interesting, right?

Don Ross 17:26

yeah. Time to accept some responsibility, right?

Chris Harper 17:28

That's right. So prior to prior to 1905, I know sounds like a long time ago, but really wasn't that long ago, there were only two categories of male. It was boy and man. That was

Don Ross 17:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Harper 17:43

In 1905, uh, the, the term adolescence was coined.

Don Ross 17:48

Uhhuh.

Chris Harper 17:49

And then in 1963 ish, the term teenager was coined.

Don Ross 17:54

Yeah.

Chris Harper 17:55

And, and there were various social reasons why we won't, we don't have to get into that, but, but basically what happened is you created a third category of male. So you

Don Ross 18:02

Yeah.

Chris Harper 18:04

adolescent man,

Don Ross 18:05

Right.

Chris Harper 18:06

then what we've done the last 40 years is just we've tried to extend that adolescent period as

Don Ross 18:10

Make it as big as possible. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Harper 18:14

So, so what? lot of what we pulled from the old men's fraternity and, and Robert's wisdom was this idea that the opposite of masculinity is not femininity, it's immaturity. So we've

Don Ross 18:28

Yeah.

Chris Harper 18:29

we've gotta call 'em up. And then some of the nuance today is that, you know, that idea that, that they want something, millennials and especially Gen Z, they want something very practical. So, know, 70 years ago we had to prove that the Bible was true.

Don Ross 18:51

Yeah.

Chris Harper 18:52

had, you know, the Chicago conference of an errand. See, you've had all, you had John MacArthur and RC Spro, all these,

Don Ross 18:57

Right.

Chris Harper 18:57

today,

Don Ross 18:59

Very cognitive oriented discussions about scripture. Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah.

Chris Harper 19:03

Today we don't, so young men aren't looking for a scripture or a Bible. That's true. They're looking for one that works.

Don Ross 19:10

Yeah.

Chris Harper 19:11

So for example. know, Jesus was supposed to be at the center of my, my parents' marriage, but they got divorced. It didn't work

Don Ross 19:20

Right.

Chris Harper 19:21

right. Um, I've been in multiple churches, it didn't work right? And, and they've seen a faith that over and over and over just disappointed them.

Don Ross 19:30

Yeah.

Chris Harper 19:30

So I think what young men are crying out for today is, Hey, show me a faith actually works.

Don Ross 19:36

Yeah.

Chris Harper 19:37

And, and, and that, that's where Better Man, I think has really hit a lick in that it's super practical. Like,

Don Ross 19:45

Yeah.

Chris Harper 19:45

this is how it works. And um, uh, I think they're just hungry for that.

Don Ross 19:51

Uh, that's fantastic. I, I, I think, you know, what I hear over and over again is, is very much along those lines, which is, uh, you know, I, I'm looking for something that's actually going to make a difference in my life. That, uh, things are gonna change because of me following this path or practicing these things, or, you know, whatever. Uh, I want things to be different. I, I had a mentor, uh, that when I was involved in a men's ministry in a church, and, and he was kind of a, a part of the, the leadership of that men's ministry, and he used to always say this. He would say, men vote with their. And what he meant by that was, uh, you know, guys will show up to the things that they consider to actually be valuable. So if you're putting on a men's event or a men's bible study, or a men's whatever for your church, and guys either don't come or they show up once and they don't come back, that's their way of telling you this isn't actually, they don't think that that's gonna make any difference in their lives and it just isn't worth their time. Right. They're just not gonna keep showing up. And, you know, church leaders want to just kind of scratch their heads and going, we're doing all this stuff for men. We're offering bible studies, we're offering small groups. We're doing the pancake breakfast on Saturday morning and we're doing, you know, like all, whatever, you know, whatever it is, fill in the blank. Um, and, and guys are trying repeatedly to say. Hey, that's not bad. But I just don't know that that's making enough of a difference in my life that it's worth me giving up my time for,

Chris Harper 21:12

Yeah.

Don Ross 21:13

you know, I think that's, that's right in line with kind of what you're saying there is like, show me a faith that's actually going to make a difference in the challenges and the problems that I'm facing in my day-to-day world. And I'm there for that. Like I need some solutions. I need some things that are gonna make a difference. And if you've got those answers, I'm here for it. You know? In fact, I'm, I'm really hungry for it. Um, but yeah, I, I, we, we, we so shy away from those things in the name of trying to just do what we think is supposed to work or present it in the way that, you know, our church tradition or the way that we've always done it, you know, it's supposed to tell us that's how we're supposed to do it. So anyway, uh, yeah. I just, I just appreciate that of like, hey, let's, let's listen to the guys, what is it that they need and how can we serve them there? So, um, I, I hear you doing that. That's great.

Chris Harper 21:57

Yeah. One, yeah. One of the things we, we say is, um, if, if, if a man doesn't know how to play the game, he won't play

Don Ross 22:05

Yeah.

Chris Harper 22:05

like, like, or, or, or another way of saying it. If a man doesn't know how to win, he won't play the game.

Don Ross 22:10

Yeah, for sure.

Chris Harper 22:11

know, they may, they may show up once or twice, uh, because of the novelty or because of the momentum or energy behind it.

Don Ross 22:19

Yeah.

Chris Harper 22:19

there's like, not a clear pathway to success, not, they're not here for the journey.

Don Ross 22:24

Yeah.

Chris Harper 22:25

Uh, you know, and, and that's why so many men just, they, they matriculate out just

Don Ross 22:28

Check out.

Chris Harper 22:29

and over

Don Ross 22:30

Mm.

Chris Harper 22:30

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross 22:31

Yeah. No, that's really good. Okay, so related to that, I want to ask you a little bit just about, you know, kind of looking at some of the stuff that Betterman offers, the things that you guys do, you know, in, in your church context. A as you work with men, it, it seems like you guys have really chosen to focus on the small group experience, you know, how to do things, uh, with guys in a group of, you know, six or eight or, uh, you know, some kind of small group size, and I'm, I'm kind of curious about that, like. You know, with the, the history of men's ministry, you know, being some of the stuff you talked about, you know, it's very like either very large group oriented, you know, something like a Promise Keepers that was, you know, filling stadiums and those kinds of things. Uh, or you know, a lot of it has been very like. Conference or event, you know, like retreat, kind of oriented, those sorts of things. You know, kind more like one off kinds of experiences. And you guys have really tried to hone in on the small group and, and sort of a regularly meeting thing. Why, why did you go that route? What was the, what's the intention behind that?

Chris Harper 23:28

Yeah, I, I, great, great observation. You know, a couple of different things. One, because we, we have always viewed ourselves and, and we always will, or at least as long as I'm here, as an on-ramp, you know, we're very comfortable who we are.

Don Ross 23:46

Mm-hmm.

Chris Harper 23:47

I tell churches, I tell leaders all the time, better man is not deep discipleship. It's

Don Ross 23:52

Yeah. Okay.

Chris Harper 23:53

uh, I'm a discipleship guy. Like, um, I love, you know, researching discipleship. It's a discipleship's been a part of my life, you know, as a Christian.

Don Ross 24:02

Yeah.

Chris Harper 24:03

man's not deep discipleship. What it is though, is a common language and a common license for every man. So we believe every man to, to your point earlier, I loved what you said earlier about, man, what does it mean to be a man before it even means to be a biblical man? Right.

Don Ross 24:18

Yeah. Right.

Chris Harper 24:19

There are so many churches, like they're hosting these, these marriage conferences. What does it, what does it matter? If I'm teaching you to be a husband, if you don't even know what it means to be a man, it's the

Don Ross 24:28

Right.

Chris Harper 24:28

horse.

Don Ross 24:29

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Chris Harper 24:30

Yeah. So, so we believe at his core, every man everywhere needs two things. He needs clarity around his design,

Don Ross 24:39

Yes.

Chris Harper 24:40

just around his purpose in life, how God made him. Right. then he's, he needs the community of like-hearted brothers to run with.

Don Ross 24:47

Yeah.

Chris Harper 24:48

So if you can give a man those two things, clarity and community, you're really setting him up for future success.

Don Ross 24:56

Yeah.

Chris Harper 24:56

So, so what better man did in this, in this market of men's ministry, we just carved out the corner and we said we're gonna be the beginning.

Don Ross 25:04

Hmm.

Chris Harper 25:05

we're, we're gonna give men clarity and we're gonna have 'em taste community, many of them for the first time.

Don Ross 25:10

Yeah.

Chris Harper 25:10

And hopefully that spurs them on, you know, for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

Don Ross 25:14

Yeah.

Chris Harper 25:15

And, and in doing so, you know, that's, I, I think that's why the Lord's blessed and, and, and why it continues to, to turn over like it does.

Don Ross 25:23

Gosh, that's, uh, that's fantastic. And, uh, again, uh, you're speaking so much of, I, I think my language and the language of manhood tribes here, when you, when you talk about, uh, clarity and community, like those are, those are so close to, you know, what we talk about. Uh, the guys who listen and watch this channel will know, you, knows. Two of the, kind of like the, what we talk about, the three pillars, uh, are the first two are manhood and comradery. And so we, you know, we really are trying to say like that clarity is all about what does it mean to be a man? You need clarity around manhood, like you're just not gonna make it very far if you don't have a clear sense. Of what it means to be a man. And yes, we need to talk about what that means biblically and how to do that in a way that looks like you're following Jesus. Uh, because that does look different than other types of being a man. But there is a baseline, like there is a baseline standard of masculinity, and we need a sense of that. Our culture has completely lost it. So gaining some of that clarity is really good. And then, you know, we say the same thing, like, uh, you're not gonna figure that out and you're not gonna do it effectively without a tribe. You've got to have some guys around you and, and that looks like that's that comradery piece. You know, you've got to be building comradery where there's trust, where there's fun, where there's shared experience, where there's life on life. You know, like it's just, you've got to have that in your relationships with other guys around you. Or you're just not gonna make it very far. Right. You're gonna get taken out here pretty quickly, uh, if you don't have a tribe of guys around you. So, uh, yeah, well said. Um, I I, I love that. I love that you guys have chosen the, the small group model. Um, I, I think that's, I think that's been missing from men's ministry for a long time. So I'm, I'm really glad to see, uh, better man kind of taking up that torch and saying, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna help guys be able to create this 'cause, gosh, as, as. Uh, as our culture has gotten more and more confused about masculinity, I think one of the things that we've really lost is our ability as men to make friends. You know, you get into adulthood as a man these days and your friends just disappear. You get outta high school or you get outta college and you're not around very many peers anymore, and guys don't really know how to make friends.

Chris Harper 27:22

Yeah,

Don Ross 27:22

of,

Chris Harper 27:23

so

Don Ross 27:23

of wild that we've forgotten that as a culture. But, uh, but we really have, you know, we're, we're good at having buddies, we're good at having colleagues, um, but we're not very good at having friends. So, uh, it just, you know, helping guys have some structure to be able to develop that I think is fantastic.

Chris Harper 27:38

Oh, that's so good. And it's almost, I mean, think about where we are today in 2026. what made made Promise keepers so appealing was that in 1992, no one had really seen a stadium full of men. I.

Don Ross 27:51

Right. Yeah. That was a novel idea. Yeah.

Chris Harper 27:54

It was almost like a sideshow. Like

Don Ross 27:55

Yeah.

Chris Harper 27:56

Right.

Don Ross 27:56

Yeah.

Chris Harper 27:57

Well fast forward to 2026 where, know, I mean, I can get online and talk to tens of thousands of

Don Ross 28:03

Right, right.

Chris Harper 28:05

not even needed anymore.

Don Ross 28:06

It's irrelevant almost. Yeah.

Chris Harper 28:08

right. So now what's, now what's novel is. Wait a minute, I can sit on around a table with four or five guys and like do life on life with,

Don Ross 28:17

Yeah.

Chris Harper 28:17

needed now. I

Don Ross 28:18

Something meaningful can happen in that space. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Harper 28:21

incredible.

Don Ross 28:22

That's really good. Um, okay, so I, I would love to hear you kind of talk some about, you know, one of the things I hear from guys a lot is, uh, okay, like I want to do some kind of men's ministry something, but anytime I try to go talk to my pastor or I try to have a conversation with somebody who's in leadership at my church, it goes nowhere. I get put on the back burner, you know, like, it just kind of becomes this. Like, eh, we're not interested, or we're already kind of doing these other men's Bible study things over here. Why don't you try one of those? You know, it just kind of becomes this like really tough conversation for guys who have a heart or a, a desire to want to see something happening for men at their church, but just don't know how to do it, don't know how to work with their pastor to make it happen. Um, what I, I would love to know, like, do you see the same thing? Like, are, are you hearing that from guys as well? And how do you encourage guys to be able to handle that dynamic Well.

Chris Harper 29:17

Yeah, absolutely. We, we see it here at every day. We live in it.

Don Ross 29:21

Yeah,

Chris Harper 29:22

it's the reason why Better Man exists. You know, again, 350,000 churches, less than less than 10% have a functioning men's ministry outside of. You know, inviting an ex NFL kicker to come talk about faith

Don Ross 29:35

Yeah. Right.

Chris Harper 29:36

nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong

Don Ross 29:38

But yeah, we've all been there and done that.

Chris Harper 29:40

yeah. There's just gotta be something more. So, so, absolutely. Like if you're trying to get something going, you, you're gonna run into those obstacles again. Men's ministry is, is the most underfunded ministry. typically the hardest ministry.

Don Ross 29:54

Yeah.

Chris Harper 29:55

To, to, to draw a crowd. I mean, I, I tell leaders all the time, it's an uphill climb. You can't bring a downhill effort.

Don Ross 30:02

Yeah.

Chris Harper 30:02

it's gonna be hard and it's gonna take time. Discipling a man like wind carving stone.

Don Ross 30:09

Hmm. Wow.

Chris Harper 30:09

It's going to take time. But, but, but if you stick with it, you'll have something like the Grand Canyon man. You'll have something big and bold and strong and

Don Ross 30:17

Yeah. Majestic. Yeah. That's awesome.

Chris Harper 30:20

and there's, there's, there's no immediate results.

Don Ross 30:22

Yeah.

Chris Harper 30:23

And so, so one, you've gotta be, you've gotta be willing to long suffer. you, you've gotta be willing to, to go a while till the church catches on. I have a, I have a sign in my office that says sometimes the pirates become the navy. And, and I, I can't

Don Ross 30:38

I love that.

Chris Harper 30:39

I can't tell you how many men that I've talked to that their pastor was even, uh, was either unengaged or, or just, you know, didn't want anything apart to do with it.

Don Ross 30:49

Yeah,

Chris Harper 30:50

then they on their own, you know, start hosting a better man or start doing, you know, uh, a manhood tribe or start, or start

Don Ross 30:57

yeah,

Chris Harper 30:57

groups and all of a sudden three. Six, six becomes 12, 12 becomes

Don Ross 31:03

yeah.

Chris Harper 31:04

and now the pastor can't ignore it.

Don Ross 31:06

Right.

Chris Harper 31:06

I hear story after story like that. Now the church is all about it, right?

Don Ross 31:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Harper 31:13

so my encouragement to to men is, man, you know, the Bible says that the Lord does not despise small beginnings.

Don Ross 31:21

Yeah.

Chris Harper 31:22

And, and, and it's okay man. Start with what you have and then see what the Lord will do.

Don Ross 31:27

That's fantastic. Um, flipping the coin a little bit, you know, we've got, we've got some church leaders listening to this podcast, some pastors and some, you know, ministry leaders and stuff like that. How would you encourage them as it relates to, uh, men's ministry and taking men seriously in their church?

Chris Harper 31:44

Yeah, yeah, great question. the majority, so, so if you're a pastor or a leader listening to this, and this is coming from, I was a, I was a senior pastor, you know, 10 years, seven to 10 years. Um, majority of problems I dealt with was all downstream from poor masculinity.

Don Ross 32:07

Yeah.

Chris Harper 32:08

Um, whether it's divorces, whether it's wayward children,

Don Ross 32:12

Yeah.

Chris Harper 32:12

it's financial issues, whatever it is,

Don Ross 32:15

Right.

Chris Harper 32:15

a matter of fact, most of the church programs today exist because of poor manhood and poor fatherhood.

Don Ross 32:23

Yep. Yep.

Chris Harper 32:25

Literally, men are the high tide that raises all ships. I, I was just telling the Georgia Baptist Convention this a few months ago and I said, Hey guys, don't mean to oversimplify this. I'm just a simple guy. you want a better children's ministry, all you need is godly or dads.

Don Ross 32:42

Yeah.

Chris Harper 32:43

If

Don Ross 32:44

Right.

Chris Harper 32:44

a better marriage

Don Ross 32:45

Yeah.

Chris Harper 32:46

you need is godly husbands.

Don Ross 32:48

Right.

Chris Harper 32:48

And if you want a stronger church, you just need godly men.

Don Ross 32:52

Yeah. Amen.

Chris Harper 32:53

Yet,

Don Ross 32:53

Why is that so hard?

Chris Harper 32:55

why? I dunno. Yet, the majority of our time, talent, and resources are aimed elsewhere.

Don Ross 33:02

Yeah,

Chris Harper 33:03

It's crazy.

Don Ross 33:04

it is crazy.

Chris Harper 33:04

crazy. So, so what I would just, just try to help the leader see is, you know, I'm not expecting you to flip your schedule and flip your budget tomorrow, but man, if you could just start moving some, some more resources towards demand, more time, and, and, and Brother, let me tell you something else. This is, this is, I probably do, I don't know, let's be conservative. I do 40 men's conferences a year. Let me tell you the difference between a good men's conference and a bad men's conference. And there's only

Don Ross 33:34

I'd love to hear this. Yeah.

Chris Harper 33:36

There's only one difference. It's when the senior pastor shows up and is standing in the middle of the room.

Don Ross 33:41

Hmm. Wow.

Chris Harper 33:42

That makes the difference and the difference in the world we have. We have pastors will dress up as pirates and dance around at VBS, they won't come to their men's gathering.

Don Ross 33:54

Yeah. Uhhuh.

Chris Harper 33:55

So, so you leaders need to hear me. That communicates volumes to your men

Don Ross 34:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Harper 34:02

The, the, the best men's gatherings I'm ever a part of is because the senior pastor is there affirming, encouraging, taking it in. The men see that this matters to him, so it should matter to me.

Don Ross 34:18

Yeah. Gosh. Amen. Oh, that's so good. Uh, I, I, you know, and even as you say that, and I think about my own experience, and I've been at a, you know, a number of different churches, worked at multiple churches. I can't think of a single men's retreat that I was a part of that the senior pastor was there. Not one.

Chris Harper 34:35

Yeah.

Don Ross 34:36

Yeah. So, uh, gosh, I mean, what good advice there and yeah, it does, it communicates volumes, you know, it communicates the real work is being done back home at the church, you know, uh, where I get to preach and teach, um, as opposed to, you know, in the lives of these men who we are really trying to shepherd and grow. That's, that's so good, man. You know, uh, one of the things you're, you're saying, uh, kind of struck me as, as I was thinking about it. So the way that we talk about uh, kind of that like idea of clarity and manhood at Manhood Tribes is we have what we call the five marks of manhood. And one of those things is in the area of allegiance. And we just say allegiance is really about how a man has to figure out his authority, relationships, essentially. He's gotta learn to be a follower, right? All men have to follow in one way or another. From the time we're born to the time we're dead, uh, we've gotta figure out following. And in particular, uh, it's a mark of manhood. 'cause I mean, that's true of women as well. Right, and they've gotta learn. They've also got to learn how to follow. But it's a mark of manhood because the way that men follow affects all the other relationships in their lives as well, right? So if a man can get his allegiance right, especially his, what we call ultimate allegiance, if a guy can get his ultimate allegiance lined up right, it's not only going to address the major problems in his life. It's gonna address the major problems in his marriage with his wife. It's gonna address the problems with his kids. It's gonna address his sexuality, it's gonna address his finances, it's gonna address his free time. It's, you know, like, you know, it, it trickles out everywhere and into all of those aspects, not only of his life, but in the lives of his family members and in the people close to him as well. So, you know what you're saying there is like, that's, that's exactly it. It's that if, if we can teach men how to do this allegiance, well, you know how to get there. Allegiance to Jesus lined up and, and actually working and functioning in their lives. Uh, it, it solves most of the problems, right? It's just kinda like, it really is. It's like, gosh, I mean this, this makes all the difference. Like, why are we not.

Chris Harper 36:33

Yeah.

Don Ross 36:33

our effort and our energy into that,

Chris Harper 36:35

Yeah.

Don Ross 36:36

because it really can, you know, the, um, the trickle down effect, you know, I mean, I know that's kind of a, a buzzword in, uh, American politics, but the, the trickle down effect of man, of a man getting his allegiance right, or you know, of a man being, well, discipled, being mature as you talked about, um, you know, like the trickle down effect of that is tremendous.

Chris Harper 36:54

Yeah. And that's so, so good, brother. And, and, and the way I say that is women have a biological clock. Men have a generational clock.

Don Ross 37:09

Wow.

Chris Harper 37:10

And that's, that's a part of God's design. What, what happens in the man's life, either positively or negatively, will affect generations to come.

Don Ross 37:19

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Harper 37:21

And you see that all through scripture. Again, this isn't, this isn't like, oh, he's taking something outta context. No. Like it's embedded

Don Ross 37:27

Right. That's the pattern everywhere. Yeah.

Chris Harper 37:30

everywhere.

Don Ross 37:31

Yeah.

Chris Harper 37:31

so, and, and even from that standpoint alone, like as a pastor, understanding that, that man get the heart of a man and generationally things begin to change.

Don Ross 37:42

Yeah.

Chris Harper 37:43

to say that like a mom couldn't have generational effect. She can, but it's designed for the man. To have that generational effect. And, um, uh, it's just, again, it's the biggest return on investment. You know, that's, I, I walked away from, you know, being a vocational pastor, um, for, for, for one reason. Really. Um, well, two reasons. One, uh, after about 10 years, I realized, I don't think I was called to be a pastor, uh, but two, I've always been an entrepreneur and, and so I'm an ROI guy. Like, man, return on investment.

Don Ross 38:21

Yeah.

Chris Harper 38:22

So being in the church, you know, and I, I pastored at large churches, I pastored at smaller churches. It didn't matter. Didn't matter to the size, didn't matter the geography. Every church I was at the greatest ROI was. If you could get a dad, if you could get a father, if you could get a man to.

Don Ross 38:40

Yeah.

Chris Harper 38:40

And so and so, man, seven, eight years ago, I just said, if that's like the greatest investment I can make, then I'm just gonna run after men. Tom, Tom Nelson, Tommy Nelson at Denton Bible, another mentor of mine. He, he, I, I heard him say one time, if you can only do one thing in ministry, he said, go after the men. It's

Don Ross 39:01

Yeah.

Chris Harper 39:02

return.

Don Ross 39:03

Yeah.

Chris Harper 39:03

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross 39:05

Alright. Uh, in light of that, I would love for you, uh, to maybe access that pastor's heart for just a minute and, uh, and speak to the guys who are listening, especially maybe some of the guys who are hearing this going like, all right, you know what, like, I. I'm kind of the guy that's in that place of, I, like, I need my faith to work. Like, it's not really worked for me in the way that I would like it to, or I'm, I'm struggling to actually be able to figure out a way that this, you know, Bible stuff or this Jesus stuff actually matters. It makes a difference. What, what would you say to that guy? Like, how would you, how would you counsel him, advise him? Like what would you say to him in terms of what he needs to start with or do next?

Chris Harper 39:43

Yeah. Yeah. I would actually tell him there, there's something he needs to recognize. So Bible says that Satan is crafty. It doesn't say he's creative, says

Don Ross 39:53

Mm-hmm.

Chris Harper 39:54

he is the most crafty beast in the field.

Don Ross 39:56

Yeah.

Chris Harper 39:57

Um. That's because Satan's been telling the same two lies to men from the beginning of time.

Don Ross 40:04

Hmm. Okay.

Chris Harper 40:05

the same two lies he told in the garden. He tells today, the first eat the, eat the fruit and you will be like, God, the, the, the actual Hebrew says eat the fruit and you out. You will be as Elohim. You'll be God.

Don Ross 40:19

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Chris Harper 40:21

the first lie was, you're so good. You're so talented. You are so gifted, you're so charismatic. You don't need God.

Don Ross 40:28

Yeah.

Chris Harper 40:29

That was the first lie. The second lie happened right after the Bible says they were naked. They were ashamed. They hid from God. That's the second lie. You are so bad. God can never love you.

Don Ross 40:41

Yeah.

Chris Harper 40:41

God

Don Ross 40:42

Yeah,

Chris Harper 40:42

use you. I

Don Ross 40:44

there. There's something really wrong and really broken with you. That's irredeemable. Unrecoverable. You've messed things. Yeah. You've messed things up in a way that you can't come back from.

Chris Harper 40:53

hundred percent. And I, I have a personal conviction that every man on this planet is walking every day between those two lies,

Don Ross 41:00

Yeah.

Chris Harper 41:01

the lie over here that says, I'm so good. I don't need God, I'm so bad. God can never use me. God can never love me, and this is

Don Ross 41:06

Hmm.

Chris Harper 41:07

Satan is. Chris Harper can wake up in the morning and be believing the first lie. By lunchtime, I'm in the fetal position

Don Ross 41:16

Oh yeah. Gosh. Truth, man. Truth. You're speaking it.

Chris Harper 41:22

So, so, so my encouragement to, to any man listening, I, I, I'd ask you first, you know, which lie are you more disposed to,

Don Ross 41:30

Yeah.

Chris Harper 41:31

you know, because Satan knows that, right? Which lie do you tend to believe more than the other? And then, and then obviously the only way to push back against deception is with the truth. That's how you beat a lie, is you beat it with the truth.

Don Ross 41:46

Yeah.

Chris Harper 41:46

my, my hope for you, whether you're believing one lie or, or both lies in the same day, is that you would. You would know the truth of God's word. You would have men in your life that could point you to that truth and to encourage you and affirm you, uh, that you would go to a Bible believing church where maybe you would get that truth regularly. But, but, but it's somehow you, you would find the truth. 'cause there is, there is only one truth that actually beats back those lies. You're not, you're not so good that, that, that you don't need God, I, I need God every day.

Don Ross 42:19

Yeah.

Chris Harper 42:19

in my breathing and movement. And, and what's beautiful is, you know, I'm not so bad that, that God couldn't love me. In fact, uh, I'm a lot worse than I think I am. But yet he still loves me

Don Ross 42:30

Yeah.

Chris Harper 42:31

uh, which is so good. So, so my hope is you would ground yourself in that truth and, and, and beat back the lies of the evil one.

Don Ross 42:39

Oh, that's good. That's, uh, man, uh, guys, for you guys listening or watching, uh, there's about, you know, a million dollars worth of wisdom contained in the last two, three minutes there. So like, go back and just listen, re-listen. If you need to like, just pull out that clip, we'll, we will try to make a, a short clip of it and put it on the, on the social webs for you. But yeah, man, just, just go back and listen to that, dwell on that, uh, and, and focus on how you can make that a part of your life on a regular basis. Yeah,

Chris Harper 43:07

Yeah.

Don Ross 43:08

heart man. This has been, uh, just absolutely fantastic. I really have enjoyed getting to hear your perspective. Uh, tell the guys who are listening and watching, um, if they want to find out more about you, about better Man, what's the best place to be able to get started and get connected?

Chris Harper 43:21

Yeah, absolutely, man. Super simple. betterman.com. So www.betterman.com. Um, all of our resources are, are, are free and, uh, we offer 'em to the church and to leaders of men, uh, chaplains, uh, small group leaders, the whole nine yards. And you can find them all right there@betterman.com. And then I do. uh, I write two pieces, um, weekly one we write a daily devotional for men. It's called Better Mornings. Uh, you can subscribe on the Better Man website. And then I have a newsletter blog called Good Trouble. It's on the Substack platform, but

Don Ross 43:57

Good trouble. I like it.

Chris Harper 43:58

I write about all things manhood,

Don Ross 44:00

Yeah.

Chris Harper 44:02

and, um, so, so you can find that pretty easy. But, but yeah, hit us up and if we can help in any way, let me know.

Don Ross 44:07

Awesome guys. We'll have all of that information in the show notes as well, so you can check on that and find the links to be able to get access to that. Uh, harp, this has been truly incredible. Thank you for coming on the show today and sharing your wisdom and insight with us. I really appreciate it

Chris Harper 44:21

Yeah, it was an honor brother. Thanks for having me.

Don Ross 44:23

all.