The Isolation Epidemic Destroying Modern Men

In this conversation with Ryan Zook (President of Men of Iron), we dive deep into what actually works when it comes to forming men—and why most church models fall short. This episode is part of our series exploring men’s ministry, discipleship, and what it truly takes to form strong, faithful men.

Ryan shares lessons from two decades of mentoring men and explains why one-on-one discipleship—not programs—is the key to real transformation. We also unpack why men today are more spiritually hungry than ever… yet more disconnected than ever.

In this episode, we cover:
 - Why one-on-one mentorship is more effective than traditional men’s groups
 - The real reason churches struggle to disciple men
 - Why spiritual hunger is increasing even as church attendance declines
 - The epidemic of isolation among men—and how to solve it
 - How to start mentoring (even if you don’t feel qualified)
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Episode 079: The Isolation Epidemic Destroying Modern Men
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
01:00 What Men of Iron does and why it matters
05:00 Why churches struggle with men’s discipleship
10:30 Why mentorship works better than programs
17:00 The shift in men today: hunger vs. church disengagement
20:30 The rise of isolation among men
26:00 How to start something (even without church approval)
33:30 Why you’re more qualified to mentor than you think
38:30 How to get connected with Men of Iron
41:30 Final encouragement + challenge

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Transcript

Don Ross 0:01

All right guys. Welcome back here to another episode of the Manhood Tribe Show. I'm really excited today we're continuing kind of in our series here where we are talking with men in the men's ministry and men's leadership space, and I've got a great guest today, Ryan Zuck, who is the head of Men of Iron. And Ryan, I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Uh, just say hi to the guys and tell us a little bit about yourself, uh, about Men of Iron and, and kind of what you guys do.

Ryan Zook 0:27

Sure. Um, I'm glad to be on Don. I appreciate the opportunity. I always enjoy the conversation and, um, yeah, I, I, uh, I'm the president of Men of Iron. I've been the president for about a year and a half, before that I was a pastor for 10 years. So a little bit about me is I served in church for quite a bit and, um. the last couple of years of my church ministry, I was tasked with a discipleship pathway, like build a pathway. Like the, the pitch was essentially help us build a pathway where we can get one person investing in another person. It'd be awesome if we could figure it out.

Don Ross 1:02

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 1:03

And long story short, we could not figure it out. Uh, which I, I dunno why that is, but we could not figure it out. And so while I was in that process of building that pathway, I got more and more passionate about, man, if we could just get one person investing in another person, we could make a huge difference. And that's what I found Men of Iron. So I came to Men of Iron three years ago, served on staff as a curriculum developer for a bit, and now I lead the organization. So as an organization, we've been around for 20 years. Uh, we are celebrating our 20th anniversary this year, this May, and we're super passionate about what I just said, getting one man, investing in another man, because that seems to be the thing that changes people's lives. It's always Jesus.

Don Ross 1:44

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 1:44

it's very, very powerful when you get one guy who's just a couple seasons ahead of another guy, investing in him, getting him to set goals, holding him accountable to those goals, it makes a big difference. And for us, I'm sure you see this too. When one guy changes, that's not just one guy, that's his wife, that's his kids, that's his job, that's his community. So investing well in one guy always has a ripple effect, and that's how we change a culture and that's what we're what we're doing every day. Yeah.

Don Ross 2:13

Absolutely, man. Uh, you're speaking things that are close to my heart and I know close to the hearts of guys, uh, watching and listening to this channel. So, uh, well done. Um, glad to have a brother and an ally in the space, and so thanks for all that you're doing and, uh, yeah, excited to talk more about it today. So, uh, yeah, I'd love to, you know, as we're, I'm, I'm kind of talking through this series of episodes on just sort of like. You know, uh, it's, it's challenging I think in the world of, you know, we'll call it men's ministry, but I think that's, that's honestly not quite the right term because guys hear the term men's ministry and they think of very specific things, you know, within a church context, whether that's a Saturday morning pancake breakfast, or a, you know. Promise Keepers Stadium event, or, you know, uh, some kind of like in the Wilderness Retreat experience, you know, there's, there's kind of these like specific things that people have in mind when it comes to men's ministry and I think, you know, uh, you know, I know like guys who are in this space know that that's, that's not quite the right way that it works. There's all kinds of different things that go on there, but, um, but it can be really challenging to try to figure out how to be able to do this men's ministry stuff well, and it's. You kind of started off by saying like, you know, this whole thing of like trying to get one guy to invest in another guy and it just, just didn't seem to work. Like, you know, uh, for whatever reason, you know, I'd, I'd actually kinda love to hear you unpack that a little bit of like what you think the reasons are. Like why, why is that so challenging? Is that just. A man thing. Like is this just true among men that that's really difficult and why might that be the case? So, uh, you know, feel free to just kind of pontificate for a minute, but I, I'd love to hear what you think, um, are kind of some of the difficulties there.

Ryan Zook 3:47

I'll tell you what, man, I can, I can get super in the weeds and you can stop me if this is like, whoa, dude. We don't need to know about all that stuff.

Don Ross 3:54

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 3:55

So Metavir specifically, uh, we, we partner with churches all the time and it's probably one of the more challenging things to do. Uh, we. We could easily just reach out to guys online and probably be a lot more effective, a lot faster. Uh, but the, the church is what, like the, the church is the hope of the world. That's the line, right? Like, God, God uses his church to make a difference and we're not gonna abandon that. So we want to champion churches. We want help churches. Um, I think having been a pastor for a while. just think it's easy for pastors to get tied up into regularly running the thing. I mean, if you're, if you're a pastor, even if you're a men's pastor, you have that weekly calendar item that's either the Sunday morning service or the Wednesday night group and you wanna run that thing well, and I think it can kind of be a distraction from mission. I don't, I don't mean that to. Um, punch at anyone. I just think when you're, when you're trying so hard to run the thing and all the details that go into a service and all the people in teams you need to engage, I think it can take away from the mission of just getting people closer to Jesus.

Don Ross 5:10

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 5:10

so in my personal process, like when I was developing that discipleship pathway. One of the things I bumped into is, okay, it, it's probably possible to get one person investing in another person completely outside of the church system. Like we don't need to manage it. Um, we don't need to run it. We don't need to develop it. We just need to identify who are the mature believers here in our congregation, and how

Don Ross 5:35

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 5:35

them up with people who aren't necessarily as mature in their faith? The, the first issue that I would've bumped into is like, well, we don't want to be saying that people aren't mature in their faith. They're not gonna like that. They might go down, they might go to the church down the road, like, okay. Um, the other thing I bumped into, and I think it's a pretty prevalent issue, is that, the way I describe it is churches have the boxes that they know they're supposed to do.

Don Ross 6:01

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 6:01

I think in today's world, and I think it's been probably since the eighties, I think it kind of came out of Bill Hybels at Willow Creek. Um, you need to develop groups. You need to run the groups, and if you're not running groups, you don't, you're not doing discipleship. And that's just not true.

Don Ross 6:17

Sure. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 6:18

you can very easily point to Jesus. Jesus didn't run a small group. Yes, he had 12 disciples, but they were doing life on life. Like when one of them bumped into a problem, Jesus highlighted the problem, he spoke into the problem and they grew. So that is one on one. Um, so I, I just know, I mean, it's one of the reasons we have a groups program is because it's really hard to engage churches if you don't have a group's program. Like the,

Don Ross 6:42

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 6:42

men's ministry pastor, uh, he has been tasked by the lead pastor to offer a group for the men. Next session. And he's looking for a group that he can get to offer to

Don Ross 6:52

Right,

Ryan Zook 6:53

which is great.

Don Ross 6:53

right.

Ryan Zook 6:54

that stuff. Um, I personally think that men thrive one-on-one. Um, maybe controversially. I think women thrive in groups and so that's why you have churches doing really, really well with women's discipleship. completely ignoring the men. I mean, you can, you can pull up church website today and just look at the ministries tab. And the ministries tab will say, uh, kids, teenagers, young adults and women, it's

Don Ross 7:25

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 7:26

common. Um, again, no knock on churches. We partner with churches. We wanna strengthen churches. What's up with not having anything for your men? What, what's the

Don Ross 7:35

Right.

Ryan Zook 7:36

And then, you know, that problem goes further and further down the road because you, you're not intentionally investing in your men. And then what happens, guess what? They leave. Um, because there's, there's nothing for 'em to do. then you

Don Ross 7:49

Right.

Ryan Zook 7:49

you can even jump into the things that you do offer for them to do are just calendar fillers. Uh, they're not intentional, they're not challenging, they're not

Don Ross 7:59

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 8:00

Um, so, you know, I think that's a major problem today. I think we can help with that problem. And

Don Ross 8:07

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 8:07

we're very pro church. I don't mean to knock anybody at what they're doing. I just think men thrive on one on one and it, it takes some work, you know, it, it's hard to find like, Hey, you're a good protege and we have a good mentor for you. You have to know your people really well.

Don Ross 8:21

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 8:21

and it takes a lot of time.

Don Ross 8:23

Yeah. No, that's good, man. Uh, gosh, I, I appreciate hearing all of that, and you're definitely throw around some, uh, some words that are, are close to kind of the way that I think and, uh, that we talk a lot about on this channel in particular, you know, just, uh, things like, you know, men are action oriented. They want to be challenged. You know, these are things that I. I just think are, are missing from most of the ways that churches try to engage with men. And, you know, it shows across the board, I mean, just like you're saying, like, you know, go look at a list of ministries that, uh, your church offers, you know, just on their website even. And, uh, you know, I saw a, a statistic recently, uh, I think it was from Barna, but I, I can't remember for sure, but it just said that fewer than 10% of churches in North America have an active men's ministry. You know, which just blew my mind. But, uh, that it's that small.

Ryan Zook 9:09

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross 9:10

but, but I get it, like, you know, for all the reasons that you're saying, um, I understand why that's difficult and, uh, and you know, that it does, uh, kind of get on the, the back burner of what a church thinks are the, you know, the boxes that need to be checked. Men's ministry is not really one of them. Um, so I, you know, I get it. And yet at the same time, like, uh, hello, the men are 50%, uh, you know, maybe a little less, but could be more, you know, roughly 50% of your congregation. Um, you know, like it's not okay to just leave them, leave them completely out. So.

Ryan Zook 9:37

And

Don Ross 9:37

Dude, I hear what you're saying.

Ryan Zook 9:39

Statistically they actually do hold a lot more significant influence. Influence, and that's,

Don Ross 9:44

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 9:44

knock on kids. That's no knock on women. It's just like

Don Ross 9:47

Right,

Ryan Zook 9:47

an old stat where, and youth ministry has been a huge push. There's an old stat that like if a kid starts going to a church outside of his family, I think it's like a 9% chance that that family ends up coming to that church.

Don Ross 10:01

right.

Ryan Zook 10:01

a mom goes to church and gets engaged in that church outside of her family, there's like a 30% chance that family comes to church. If that happens to a man, a father, there's a 96% chance that that

Don Ross 10:12

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 10:12

end up in church. So why wouldn't you be intentional

Don Ross 10:16

Right.

Ryan Zook 10:17

in the men in your church? Because you're gonna get, and I know we don't think this way because it's all discipleship and it's all kingdom, but you're gonna get the most bang for your buck if you invest well in your guys. It's gonna make

Don Ross 10:26

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 10:27

in the community. So we gotta do it.

Don Ross 10:29

Yeah. So, okay. I'm, I'm curious, uh, on your end, just from a little bit of a personal perspective. You know, you kind of talked about, uh, coming from a pastoral background now doing this kind of men's work, uh, full-time. Like why that shift for you? Like, what prompted that kind of change to move from, you know, the kind of inside the church setting to alongside the church, uh, doing the work that you're doing now?

Ryan Zook 10:52

I, I guess the, the easiest answer is I've just come to believe that what I'm doing today is a much more effective use of my time.

Don Ross 10:59

Okay.

Ryan Zook 11:00

I, I was a pastor at a, a pretty large church here in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Uh, we're talking to, you know, when I would get to preach, I'm preaching to 3000 people on a weekend, and I just started looking around our community. Like, man, 3000 people coming through this building every weekend, our community is not becoming more Christian. It's becoming less Christian.

Don Ross 11:22

Yeah. Hmm.

Ryan Zook 11:23

we're not getting more passionate about Jesus. We're becoming less passionate about following Jesus, even within the church. So what we're doing is not working. And again, that's not to knock anybody. It's just like, well, I wanna, I wanna actively build God's kingdom. And I think that if I can get. Um, you know, if, if I can get a hundred guys paired up with a hundred guys that are gonna invest well in them and challenge them, I think we're gonna make a bigger difference. And, when, when we, I think when we pair up with churches, that's the, that's the best combination. They're, they've got what they're doing on the weekend or during the week. Uh, we firm up how they serve their guys. It, it just makes a huge difference. And

Don Ross 12:04

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 12:05

I have a pretty long history in student ministry. one of the things I saw coming up through student ministry is like, man, we're, we're investing so much in these kids that are coming from these struggling families.

Don Ross 12:17

Hmm.

Ryan Zook 12:18

man, at the end of the day, if that kid goes home and his dad's not a believer that kid's gonna have a really, really, really hard time walking out his faith.

Don Ross 12:26

Sure.

Ryan Zook 12:26

can get Dad to start to follow Jesus and be passionate about building God's kingdom, it's actually gonna. Filter down through and make a difference throughout that family.

Don Ross 12:34

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 12:34

we've gotta build faithful God believing dads.

Don Ross 12:39

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 12:40

so that gets me amped up, man. I, I get excited about that.

Don Ross 12:42

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 12:43

And you can see the difference it makes, it's exciting.

Don Ross 12:46

Yeah, that's cool. Uh, it gets me excited too. I mean, just even hearing the passion, uh, in you as you talk about it, um, encourages me and, uh, you know, just kind of like, I think fans of FLAME a little bit, you know, of like, oh yeah, this is why we do this. This is, uh, this is good, this is exciting. It's needed. Um, so that's great. Okay. So tell me a little bit then, just, uh, you know, you've, you've kind of talked a little bit about this sort of like pairing up of one-to-one. You've used the term mentorship some, uh, why has this been the thing that you guys at Men of Iron have kind of chosen to focus on, you know, why mentorship? Uh, uh, what, what's, what's the, what's the passion or the need that's really driving that, and how do you see that really being effective?

Ryan Zook 13:24

So I would say it's, it's historical and it's biblical. So like in our, in our 20 year history, we started out as a ministry of a local church here, and our founder was looking to gro his faith. Uh, the pastor gave like a stereotypical altar call. He went to the front and while he was at the front kneeling in front of the stage, an older man came up behind him, put his hand on his shoulder, and started praying for him. Him it just, it moved him in a big way.

Don Ross 13:52

Hm.

Ryan Zook 13:52

he got up from the stage, he turned around and didn't know the guy that had been praying for him and said, Hey, you invest in me over the next year? Because I'm growing, trying to grow my faith and I need help.

Don Ross 14:04

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 14:04

that was our first mentorship pair. Our, our founder and this guy's name's Bob, um, that prayed for him. so shortly after that, in that local church, um, we launched our first. Pair of mentors and proteges. It was 10 mentors, 10 proteges. Uh, and that local church ran mentorships for probably 10 years and it became a backbone of how they did discipleship. Uh, if you talk to that pastor today, he said, you know, when we launched that program, we, we would walk up and down the halls of our church and we would see more dads in kin's ministry, more dads showing up to student ministry, more guys at our men's ministry on a Saturday. It just made a giant difference in our church. So. You know, I wasn't here at that time, but the organization realized there's something to this. And there's not a lot of organizations that do what we do. So it's, Hey, we love Jesus. We want you to love Jesus, and we're gonna pair you up with another guy that's further ahead, that's gonna help you walk this road and hold you accountable as you try to grow. and that, that hasn't changed for us. That's what we've been doing for 20 years. It's what we continue to do. Uh, and I guess like the why mentorship, it just makes such a big difference, uh, in, in man's life and, and for us. It's a lifestyle, it's not a program. You know, we offer the tools and resources. Our strong 27 mentorship is 12 months long. But man, there's so many guys that started doing it five years ago and still meet with their mentor. They're still getting help. They make the pivot. They start to invest in a protege. That protege starts to grow. Um, so to me, if we can get that kind of lifestyle to catch that kind of very intentional discipleship. It makes a huge difference. And you know, I told you earlier, I think it's biblical, kind of the, the stereotypical story is you have Barnabas investing in Saul. Paul. Paul starts to invest in Timothy.

Don Ross 15:55

Right.

Ryan Zook 15:56

you really want to get Bible church history nerdy. You can actually track Timothy invested in this guy. That guy invested in this guy. It comes all the way up to whatever guy took an interest in you and faithfully invested in you. And that's how the Christian faith has grown over time. So we want to continue to be part of that story.

Don Ross 16:14

That's awesome. I mean, I would be super impressed if somebody could track their Christian genealogy all the way back to Paul and Timothy.

Ryan Zook 16:21

I.

Don Ross 16:21

Bring me the list. I'd love to see it. That's super cool, man. I love that. Uh, yeah. You know, I would say, uh, guys, for those of you watching and listening, uh, you know, I don't love just, uh, leaving the, the teaser until the end. So I'll say like, uh, hey, if, if you're kinda listening to this right now and you're thinking, I, I want something like that, like I'm looking for that kind of mentor relationship, or I'd love to figure out how to do something like that in my church. Like, uh, Ryan, where do they go? Like, how do you, how do you get started with men of Iron or what kind of resource would you point them to?

Ryan Zook 16:52

Uh, I'll give you the shortcut route if you want to talk to me. My email is Ryan z@menofiron.org, so you can

Don Ross 16:59

Okay,

Ryan Zook 16:59

me an email. I'd love to talk to you. Our website is men of iron.org.

Don Ross 17:03

perfect.

Ryan Zook 17:04

there's like a resource tab. There's a bunch of free resources we offer. There's small group resources we offer, and then our big thing is mentorship resources. We want everybody to have that. So our mentorship's called Strong 27. It's on the resource tab of the website. Just go there and click through it.

Don Ross 17:17

Yeah. Awesome. Great. Alright, we'll come back to that at the end too, but, uh, yeah, just want, since we were talking about it, I wanted to go ahead and throw that in. Uh, okay. What I wanna ask you about, you, you kind of said like, uh, you know, in the 20 year history of your organization, like what you do hasn't changed a ton. You know, mentorship is mentorship, uh, and that that hasn't changed over the course of 20 years. But I would love to know like, what has changed? Like what, you know, I think one of the things that I see at the moment, uh. In both in men's ministry in general, like as a space, you know, as kind of a as, as a work. Um, things seem a lot different than even that they did, you know, maybe even just five, uh, seven years ago, kind of pre COVID era. Um, but I also see that men are different, you know, the things that men are dealing with, the things that they're facing, at least some of the kind of like felt needs or top level urgencies seem different and I'm. I'm just kind of curious from your perspective, if you're seeing or hearing that sort of thing, um, what is it that you see that men are kind of facing today and, and how does that look similar or different than, you know, maybe when you guys were getting started?

Ryan Zook 18:18

I'll tell you one of the, one of the strangest things to me is that church engagement has dropped significantly. But spiritual hunger has grown.

Don Ross 18:28

Hmm. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 18:29

we're in this interesting phase of our organization where we we're, we're running a group right now at a Dunkin Donuts, uh, in Schuylkill County, which is in Pennsylvania. And it's kind of the first time that we're like, Hey, we'll be here. Um, if you want to hear about us, if you wanna be challenged, if you wanna grow, just come here. because usually we partner with churches. So a a lot of our groups are in churches. A lot of our mentorships are in churches. Um. has been super interesting because the first night we had 30 guys that showed up. Uh, probably half the room, if not three quarters of the room is like, yeah, I don't really know that I believe in God, but I do want to grow and I do want to be challenged. So I'm willing to do the God thing, if it's gonna help me as a man, uh, which is so interesting.

Don Ross 19:18

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 19:19

and then we're, we're like the, the backbone of what we, everything we do is you set a goal and you invite somebody to hold you accountable. So we have this room that's half full of guys that aren't super interested in Jesus saying, my goal to try to grow my faith that I'm not even sure I have is to pray to God every day this week. is like, whoa, you don't even

Don Ross 19:40

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 19:40

God. Why are you praying?

Don Ross 19:42

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 19:42

and, and then the next week it's like, okay, I, I prayed every day this week. I'm not sure that I did it right, but it made a difference in my life. What's up with that?

Don Ross 19:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 19:53

you know, it, it's not, it has not been hard for us to get to those guys. Um, that, that tells me that there's, I think there's a spiritual hunger in men. I think that men do know that. Um, what we've been doing culturally, I guess as a nation is kind of silly and hasn't worked. so it's like, okay, I want to, I wanna take my role as a man. Seriously. First of all, they're like a little bit sheepish to admit that,

Don Ross 20:20

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 20:20

I think, I think we've been kind of beaten down a little bit. Um, so they're a little sheepish to say like, no, I, I think I carry a lot of influence in my family and I actually want to lead my family. What does that look like?

Don Ross 20:32

Right?

Ryan Zook 20:33

and I think men are more. Willing to give God a try. I know there's a lot more to it than just giving God a try. But

Don Ross 20:39

Sure.

Ryan Zook 20:40

that hunger, I think we gotta feed that hunger. It just, it gets me amped up like, man, these guys are searching and followers of Jesus in our world today. We've gotta do something about it.

Don Ross 20:52

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 20:53

I mean, you can throw in like, man, pornography is so accessible. It is affecting everyone That's not necessarily getting better. I think it's probably getting worse. I think. Any number of men's conversations or dealing with pornography? Um, you know, there's family struggles that look different. Families in general look different. You have guys that are trying to lead blended families. Uh, you have guys that are trying to figure out how to work through the divorces. I guess that's not new, but I think there's more of it. I think with it though, I think there's a level of authenticity that's kind of new. I think

Don Ross 21:31

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ryan Zook 21:33

a lot more with guys that are like, yeah, I came here to tell you my stuff, so here's my stuff now, whatcha gonna do about it?

Don Ross 21:38

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 21:38

So, and then you have to know what to do about it.

Don Ross 21:41

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 21:42

so,

Don Ross 21:43

I, I would agree with that, man. Just even from my own personal journey, um, you know, remembering what it was like to be a young man in my, like late teens or early twenties, and the, the pressure to keep. Shameful things hidden or under wraps, you know, to, to not admit weakness or to not, uh, play the vulnerability card. Um, God, that was so prevalent, even, you know, just as recent as 20 years ago.

Ryan Zook 22:14

Mm-hmm.

Don Ross 22:15

uh, and nowadays it does, it feels like, and, and even in especially among men, it feels like that has shifted dramatically where there is, uh, a real desire to just say, you know what? Uh, I don't have all my shit together and lemme tell you how I don't. And, uh, can you help, you know, what can you do about it? Like, is there some relief there somewhere? Um, you know, I just think, uh, that approach to masculinity is so different than, you know, what I saw be true in my father's generation. Um, but what was just like culturally prevalent in America not that long ago. So, um. Yeah, I would agree with you wholeheartedly on that one. And just say, I, I think personally that that's one of the biggest places where men and the people who are working, you know, in the space of trying to work with and reach men, uh, that's one of our biggest opportunities and advantages I think, is that that shift really is there. And if we can figure out how to step into it Well, um, I think most guys are willing to throw the doors wide open. Uh, it's just that, you know, for the most part. The church hasn't figured out how to go there, you know, what to be able to do, to be able to connect with men at that level. So, uh, I appreciate, and I'm encouraged by it, you know, guys like you who are trying to say, well, we're gonna go there, like, and we're gonna create space for men to go there. Um, because we, we think there's opportunity,

Ryan Zook 23:30

it's, we're just doing like a church skit. Like, come on,

Don Ross 23:33

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 23:34

Um, I, I'll add to it that I think at the same time, isolation is growing at a significant pace. So we, we have a four or five faith, family, friends, fitness and finances. Um, one of the biggest ones where guys start to get really raw is like, um. I can't name a single friend that I have,

Don Ross 23:57

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 23:58

we're more connected than we've ever been. That's not slowing down, that's getting faster. You can

Don Ross 24:03

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 24:03

out to anyone, anywhere, anytime. And dude, I see it every week, guys are like, yeah, I don't have any friends. I don't know how I got here, and now I don't know what to do about it.

Don Ross 24:14

Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Zook 24:16

literally anyone that's offering meaningful connection with other men, not fake stuff, not silly stuff like meaningful, authentic connection. You're gonna win because everyone feels alone.

Don Ross 24:28

Yeah. This is, this is so true. And you know, to any guy listening out there who's trying to do anything with reaching or connecting with men, um, you know, like this is, I think universally true at the moment. I mean, I, I was, uh, chatting with a guy last night, um, who was kind of like just coming into, uh, my circle of stuff, you know, that I try to offer to guys. And we were having kind of a first conversation and, and one of my questions I ask every guy is like, what other men in your life do you have that you can talk to about this? And I would. Guess at least 80% of the time, it's probably more like 90% of the time the answer is no. One, I I, I can't think of a single person that I, you know, and a single other guy that I have, that I have either shared this with or that I would feel comfortable sharing this with. And you know, I think that right there is the. Is the quintessential problem in terms of, you know, what men are dealing with today? Uh, that, that I do think churches have something to offer. You know, we, we don't always do men's groups well, but churches are still one of the few places in our culture that are actually offering regular places for men to be able to connect and interact. And there aren't that many of those kinds of spaces that exist anymore. So, uh, I do think, you know, I think churches, it's worth the effort of churches to spend time and resources and energy into saying. How can we do these groups really well? What can we do, uh, or how, you know, how can we do one-on-one mentorship and discipleship really well? Uh, because guys are hungry for this. Even if they don't know that that's what they're hungry for, you know, they're looking for that kind of relational connection that can actually make a difference in their lives. So, uh, yeah, man, I'm, I'm right there with you. I agree a hundred percent. Um. But yeah, uh, I, I wanna follow that up by just asking, um, how would you, this is, this is one of the, uh, kind of things that I, I bump up against a lot is guys who are wanting to be able to, uh, do some of the kind of stuff that we're talking about, um, but have either encountered roadblocks. In their church or with a church leader and are just kind of not sure, like, Hey, how do I even talk with my pastor about like, I want to get this group started, or I want to do this like mentorship program within our church. Or I would love to like help us do more for reaching men. Um, and it can feel like. Crickets or it can feel like, eh, may, let's come back around to that in the fall. Or you know, like whatever the answer is. And it just kind of feels like it's perpetually put off or even, you know, that there's real obstacles to it. So I like, one of the things I would ask you, especially, you know, as a guy who's leading a ministry that tries to work with churches, like how would you encourage guys who are wanting to do some of those kinds of things to interact with their pastors or their church leaders and the way that they approach that?

Ryan Zook 27:11

I think of all. gonna be tough. And I think one of the most discouraging things that happens is you think it's gonna be easy. Uh, you think that like, why would anybody not want to do this? I'm gonna

Don Ross 27:24

Right,

Ryan Zook 27:24

and

Don Ross 27:24

exactly. I still think that and wonder that at times I'm kinda like, this is a win. Why are you saying no?

Ryan Zook 27:31

Okay. So, um, having been a pastor for a while, all of your pastors have a lot on their plate,

Don Ross 27:39

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 27:40

thinking about what they're gonna be doing next. And some, you know, sometimes just organizationally, like they already have a calendar in place and you're

Don Ross 27:48

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 27:48

with a really great idea and they already got their calendar approved and they literally can't do what you're asking them to do.

Don Ross 27:56

Right. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 27:57

the, the first thing I would say, particularly if you're trying to partner with your local church. Don't get discouraged when you get pushback or you experience some, some slower pace than what you'd like to see.

Don Ross 28:10

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 28:11

because if you throw a giant fit about that, guess what, you're never gonna do anything at that church.

Don Ross 28:15

Right.

Ryan Zook 28:17

And

Don Ross 28:17

written off. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 28:18

don't forget to be honoring. Don't forget to be respectful. Uh, don't forget that your church probably already has a plan in place and what you're offering probably doesn't fit in that plan, and that's not a bad thing because they didn't know that you were thinking about doing it. so you gotta build relationship, right? Like, I mean, everything is relationships. So you've gotta build relationship with the guys that are champions for men in your church. Will they have the same ideas as you? Probably not, and that's okay.

Don Ross 28:48

Hmm. Yeah. That's great.

Ryan Zook 28:50

and so, so yeah, like know that you, you might bump into a slow role. Don't be shocked. Um, you gotta build relationships with the guys that can help get the work done. Because guess what, if your, if your idea gets approved and they say, go ahead and go for it, you're gonna need guys that are serving with you together with you. So you need those strong relationships with guys who care about the same things you care about. the other thing I would say is. Sometimes, sometimes I talk to guys and it's like, man, if we could just do this, it would be awesome, but there's so many roadblocks and we just can't get it done, so I'm just not gonna do it.

Don Ross 29:28

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Zook 29:28

to me, that just means you're not actually passionate about it in the first place. Like, if you're gonna experience one roadblock and not still try to do something meaningful, like, what are you doing? Um, so, you know, I, I just had a call with a guy. We, we had a podcast about friends. And this guy I talked to a while ago, he just called me up. He's like, Hey, I just saw your podcast, what you're doing. Um, the one thing I don't hear you saying is, guys that are healthy, guys that are in a good spot, guys that are willing to actually make a difference. You're not telling them to just step up and start doing it. so you don't need necessarily, and I, I get, I get the nuance of it. You wanna partner with your church, you wanna offer it through your church. I get it. I think it's good to be respectful. I think it's good to put the time in. You don't need your church to approve something, for you to start investing in men, you can actually just do it.

Don Ross 30:20

just do it. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 30:22

that mean that, you know, I guess to use an example, it's totally made up. You, you might have an idea like, man, if we could gather guys Wednesday night in a small group room at seven. That would really make a difference. Well, then you go to your pastor and your pastor says, I love your idea. You're not allowed to do that. You're not gonna do it right now. Guess what? You can still do. You can still gather men at Dunking Donuts down the street at

Don Ross 30:44

Right.

Ryan Zook 30:44

Don't, don't be a rogue agent, don't be a

Don Ross 30:46

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 30:47

But if

Don Ross 30:47

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 30:48

on your heart to care for guys in your circle, you, you don't need really anybody to help you do that. You can just do it. And

Don Ross 30:55

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 30:56

it's very important. Respectfully, um, communicate it. Don't wait around to make a difference because like, like what I just said earlier, guys are isolated, guys are hungry. We need spiritually strong men to invest in other men. So just get started. Think of

Don Ross 31:13

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 31:14

that could benefit from you being involved in their lives and go and offer to be involved in their lives. Most men actually want that, but won't ask for it. So if

Don Ross 31:23

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 31:24

to someone and offering that, you're actually doing them a favor. Um. And they'll probably be up for it. So you don't need a program to get it done. You don't, you don't

Don Ross 31:33

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 31:33

iron to get it done. You just do it.

Don Ross 31:35

Right. That's right. Yeah. That's great. I, I love that and I love it in particular for men because I, I think there's such a, uh, a message of just guys like, this is what we're built for, right? We are doers, we are action oriented. Get out there and do something. Uh, so I, I, I love that message. I think in particular, that message is so needed within the church context. Um, it can be so scary for pastors and church leaders. To tell their guys to just get out there and do stuff, right. Because it, it, it, uh, you very quickly lose what it feels like maybe you've got control over, uh, when you just empower your people to go do stuff. But look, that's the way of the Holy Spirit. That's how the Holy Spirit has been doing things for 2000 years. Uh, so I, yeah, I, I, I think that's great. I, I think it's just a helpful and needed reminder that like, hey. Walk with Jesus and go do the things that he's asking you to do. And yeah, it, it's not good to like, uh, like do it as a, like you're saying as a rogue agent or in rebellion to your church, but, um, you don't have to have full permission and blessing and, you know, like, uh, sign of the cross over you from your pastor in order to be able to go lead a group, you know, just do it. Get some guys together and make it happen. So, uh, wonderful man. I, uh, I so appreciate that message and, and just the encouragement to guys to be able to do that.

Ryan Zook 32:49

We have,

Don Ross 32:49

all right. I want go ahead.

Ryan Zook 32:51

Well, I was just gonna say, we, we have guys in that seat that are like, man, I would love to offer mentorship. My pastor's not in favor of it because he just doesn't know anything about it.

Don Ross 32:59

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 33:00

those guys is we'll find a protege and start to mentor that guy. If your,

Don Ross 33:04

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 33:05

gets to a point where he is like, holy cow, that guy's more spiritually healthy, that guy's more spiritually healthy, how, how is this happening?

Don Ross 33:13

Right.

Ryan Zook 33:14

is you're starting to actually invest in people, guess what? You just got a lot of attention from your pastor and now he's way more interested

Don Ross 33:21

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 33:22

what's going on and how he can help do more of it because you're

Don Ross 33:24

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 33:25

him.

Don Ross 33:26

Right. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 33:27

Yeah.

Don Ross 33:27

The results will speak for themselves and your commitment and faithfulness will speak to who you are and that your pastor can trust you. So, uh, yeah, I, I think that's great. Um, okay. I, I do wanna come back to that idea of just, you know, as you're talking about mentorship, um, I, I think in that whole arena, my, you know, I'd say my personal experience with mentorship and just what I hear and have heard from, you know, many different guys over the course of the years is, uh, a few things, and I'm sure you've heard all of this as well. So I, I want to kind of give you an opportunity to speak to. Common objections, uh, you know, things that are, uh, that are, you know, fly in the face of why I shouldn't do this kind of a thing. Um, one is just, you know, like, uh, the kind of immediate disqualification, who am I to be a mentor? You know, like, what, what would I have to do or say or, uh, how would that even work? Um, or, you know, I think there's just kind of some like question marks around like, what even is a mentor? Like, you know, if, if I'm looking for a mentor, what am I. Asking of them to do, or if I'm trying to be a mentor, like what am I supposed to be doing? Um, it's a, it's, it's a little bit of a nebulous concept in our world and how it ties to discipleship within the church world is, um, maybe even more of a head scratcher. So, um, speak to any of that that you want to, and just help give guys a picture of like, what does healthy mentorship look like and how does a guy know like, yeah, I should be a mentor and here's how to, here's how to get started doing that.

Ryan Zook 34:49

Okay. I like to, I like to tell guys, uh, one of the biggest things that we can do for people is demystify all those things.

Don Ross 34:55

Yeah. Great.

Ryan Zook 34:56

me mentorship can feel like, um. You're gonna be this, you're gonna find this sage that like lives on a mountain somewhere and just tell people wonderful things. Okay?

Don Ross 35:07

Which, let's be honest, if any of us, if any of us could find that guy, like let's go find him, please.

Ryan Zook 35:12

find them. That's fine.

Don Ross 35:13

Like wherever Gandalf is on the mountaintop, like point me in the direction. Right.

Ryan Zook 35:17

there you go. most people see it that way. That's not really what it's like. Um, I had this theory. That everybody can think of one person that has invested well in their lives and your life today would not be where it is without that person.

Don Ross 35:36

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 35:37

can do that. When you think about that person, can you think of any of their faults? So you have already in your own life benefited from somebody who was just a little bit further ahead than you. And you know,

Don Ross 35:51

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 35:51

perfect. So guess

Don Ross 35:53

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 35:53

have to be perfect. Um, my favorite example is if you're trying to be a better dad and you have a little boy that's three years old, do you know who can mentor you really well? Any dad that has a little boy that's five years old?

Don Ross 36:07

Right,

Ryan Zook 36:07

a little bit further ahead, Because you've never dealt with 4-year-old boy problems. You're stuck in

Don Ross 36:13

right.

Ryan Zook 36:13

problems.

Don Ross 36:14

Right,

Ryan Zook 36:15

that's had a, a son that's just a little bit older than your son can help you, are they gonna have flaws? Yeah. And you're silly if you expect that they won't,

Don Ross 36:25

right.

Ryan Zook 36:26

will have already seen some of the things you're gonna see and they can help you. That's

Don Ross 36:31

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 36:32

Um, if you are trying to grow in your faith. And you're like, man, I, I've never

Don Ross 36:37

I.

Ryan Zook 36:38

the Bible. Guess who can mentor you? Anybody who's read the Bible,

Don Ross 36:43

Yeah. Any dude? Yeah.

Ryan Zook 36:46

Yeah. I mean,

Don Ross 36:47

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 36:47

a lot, a lot of times we'll have proteges at their first goal, their first week is, I would like to start reading the Bible. to mentor that protege, all you need as a man is to have read some of the Bible and you can answer some of the questions. You don't need a seminary degree, you don't need to be a pastor. You don't need to be 85 years old. Would all those things

Don Ross 37:10

That's right.

Ryan Zook 37:11

Um, so it's, it's just way simpler than we think. Um, a, a stat that helps me. Is that 77% of men desire a mentor and 33% of men will ask for one. So if you're in a room of 10 guys, seven of the guys sitting around, you want help, I don't know

Don Ross 37:35

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 37:35

with the other three. We can talk about them some other time. Um, but almost no one's gonna ask for help, even though you're in a room full of guys that want help.

Don Ross 37:44

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 37:45

Everybody wants it. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have all the answers. You just have to show up. And for us, when we talk about mentorship, I, I guess in the weeds on us, we're protege driven, we don't have a guidebook for mentors. It's like, okay, week one, you're gonna teach this. Week two, you're gonna teach this. The protege sets the agenda. So

Don Ross 38:05

Yeah. Great.

Ryan Zook 38:06

what's, what's an issue that I had this week. And

Don Ross 38:09

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 38:09

to the mentor and says, I got in a huge fight with my wife this week. I said something stupid. How do I fix this?

Don Ross 38:16

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 38:17

anybody who's been married a little bit longer and has had more stupid things than you over the course of their lifetime will be able to help you solve

Don Ross 38:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Zook 38:26

it's simple. Um, and the worst thing you can do is be afraid of it or feel like you're not ready for it. Um, because one of the things we've seen is when it becomes a lifestyle, it actually just becomes a lot easier. So it's the same as everything

Don Ross 38:39

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 38:39

start.

Don Ross 38:41

Uh, dude, super fantastic. I I love, I mean, exactly as you described it, it's just demystifying, you know, it is just taking the, the fear and intimidation out of it. Uh, and it, it just boils it down to, this is just simple relationship, right? It's just a conversation between two guys about like, here's where I'm a little further ahead of you, and maybe have something to offer. Just because I'm a little older or I'm a little more advanced in this area, or I've just done more here, you know, like, not because I'm a guru, not because I'm a saint, not because I'm perfect or you know, an expert, um, but I've just walked a little more. And, and, and that's really all it takes. You know? It's not, uh, I, I think as men, we tend to think that in order to be able to, to be a mentor in that way, it's like if every, if every guy starts at an A and the goal is at some point in time in life to get to z. You've gotta be the guy who's at X, Y, or Z in order to offer anything to any guy back here. You know? And it's like, no, if, like, if guy's starting at a, you just need to be at like C or D and you've got something to be able to speak to about a, you know, like it's, it's, it's not that difficult. Um, but it, you know, we make it harder than it needs to be. So, uh, I appreciate just the way that you simplify that process and I think invite men into it. I think that's great, man. I think that's so needed. Uh, I think churches can really benefit from that. So, uh, one more time, let me have you just kind of point guys to, uh, you know, where you're at on the web, uh, where guys can find you and what's maybe the, like, the best place to kind of get started with. Uh, you know, getting more into the orbit of men of iron.

Ryan Zook 40:12

Sure. Uh, our website's, men of iron.org, um, there's a little bar at the top with all of our resources. Uh, we, we offer lots of. Free resources. We have a 30 day devotional that you can sign up for free. It's delivered via email. It's called Discipline Restored. It's just gonna help you reestablish some spiritual disciplines in your life. It works for guys that don't know much about God. It works for guys that have been walking with God for a long time and just want to. You know, revisit some basic spiritual disciplines.

Don Ross 40:40

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 40:41

we run online groups. There's a, there's a regular rhythm of online groups that we're running because we want guys to have a easy place to get connected. Um, there's a, there's a tab under resources. You go to small group resources, you go to online groups. It'll tell you the next date for our next online group, you can just sign up right there, jump in. Uh, most of our groups are six weeks. They're built on the core five. So we talk faith, family, friends, fitness and finances. Every week, you're gonna set a goal. Every week you're gonna report on if you accomplish that goal or not. Again, we don't expect anybody to be perfect. We just want you to move a little bit forward. So like you were

Don Ross 41:15

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 41:16

C, and D, we say, Hey, if you're at a one, we want you to be at a one and a half. What's gonna take to

Don Ross 41:21

Yeah.

Ryan Zook 41:21

half?

Don Ross 41:22

That's great. That's great.

Ryan Zook 41:23

simple. If you are trying to go from a one to a five, you're gonna get really discouraged really quick, and then you're not gonna do anything. And if you just make a little bit of progress every week, all that progress compounds and when you look back, you'll be shocked with where you are. Um, so, and we've talked a lot about mentorship, that's on our website as well. It's called Strong 27. It has its own tab. You can dive into anything you want there.

Don Ross 41:46

Yeah. Very cool. Awesome, man. Uh, well guys, if this has been as encouraging to you as it has been to me, uh, I hope that it has. Um, go check out min of iron.org. Um, you know, f. Uh, find a way to get involved in what they're doing. And, uh, yeah. Ryan, thanks so much for being here today. Appreciate all that you're doing and uh, God bless you man as you continue to do his work.

Ryan Zook 42:06

I appreciate it, Don. Thanks for the opportunity and thanks for what you continue to do. It's so important. We need more guys doing it. So appreciate you, man.

Don Ross 42:13

Yeah, absolutely.