Most Men's Ministries Struggle Because of This

Most men’s ministries struggle—and deep down, a lot of Christian men already know it.

Low engagement. Little transformation. Frustrated leaders and disengaged men.

So what’s actually going wrong?

In this conversation with Kent Evans (Founder of Manhood Journey), we dig into the real reasons men’s ministry often fails—and it’s not what most people think. This episode is part of our series exploring men’s ministry, discipleship, and what it really takes to build strong, faithful men.

Kent shares insights from years of working with fathers and men, and explains why the biggest issue isn’t programming—it’s something much deeper. We also talk about the pressure pastors feel, the responsibility men often avoid, and why everything ultimately comes back to your relationship with God’s Word.

In this episode, we cover:
 - Why pastors often avoid or struggle with men’s ministry
 - The hidden pressure that keeps men from stepping up as leaders
 - Why blaming your church is the wrong starting point
 - The real root issue behind most men’s struggles (and how to fix it)
 - Why knowing Scripture changes everything for a man
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Episode 080: Most Men's Ministries Struggle Because of This

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
01:00 Kent’s story and the start of Manhood Journey
06:00 Why men’s ministry resources are lacking
10:30 Why pastors struggle to lead men
15:30 Stop blaming your pastor (hard truth for men)
20:00 What real leadership in men’s ministry looks like
25:00 Why your first ministry is your home
30:00 Cultural shifts affecting men and families
33:30 The real problem: men don’t know Scripture
40:00 How to start engaging with God’s Word
43:00 Where to connect with Kent + final encouragement

💪 Want to know how you measure up as a man? Take our free quiz, called How Manly Are You? and learn how you can get better at being a man. Download for free at manhoodtribes.com/manly. 💪

Transcript

Don Ross 0:01

Guys, welcome to the Manhood Tribes Channel. I'm your host, Don, and I'm really glad to have you joining in with us here today. We are continuing in our series of interviews where we are talking to guys in the men's leadership and men's ministry space and just trying to get some different points of view on what makes for a good ministry, uh, to men and why some of them really tend to struggle. Why it is that churches and men's ministries in particular tend to have such a hard time. Reaching and engaging with men. I'm really excited to have a friend here on the show today who, uh, has had a tremendous impact in the lives of many men. Kent Evans, who is the leader of Manhood Journey, Kent is, uh, not only the leader of Manhood Journey, which is a ministry that he started devoted to helping dads become disciple makers. He is also an author, a speaker, a podcast host, an ordained minister, a husband, a father of five boys. And a lover of all things Bible and baseball. Kent, I'm really glad to have you on the show here today, man.

Kent Evans 1:02

what a great summary. I'm gonna take you on the road, Dawn. That was beautiful.

Don Ross 1:07

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah,

Kent Evans 1:08

to my eye.

Don Ross 1:08

there you go, man. That's what it should do, right? Your life story in 10 seconds.

Kent Evans 1:13

Love it.

Don Ross 1:14

Dude, uh, glad to have you here today. I wanna just kind of start off by letting you tell a little bit of your story with, uh, with Manhood Journey. So, you know, you were in kind of the business, the corporate world for about 20 or so years before you jumped into doing this men's ministry thing. Tell us a little bit about like, what, what made you decide to make the switch? Why did you get outta business and, and why decide to jump into doing men's ministry?

Kent Evans 1:36

Yeah. Uh, one of the things you said in the bio was that I'm a husband and that's probably the one thing that people need to need to know the most about me is my wife, April. She and I have been married, um, the time of recording. In about a month, we'll celebrate our 31st wedding anniversary. You know, if.

Don Ross 1:51

congrats.

Kent Evans 1:52

Thanks. If Jesus doesn't come back, uh, and, and she extends my contract,

Don Ross 1:56

Yeah, there you go. Yeah,

Kent Evans 1:57

31st.

Don Ross 1:58

a question mark.

Kent Evans 1:59

And the reason I bring that up is because she and I have always been, we, we've had our struggles like any other married couple, but one of the areas where we did not struggle was in like. A big pulling and pushing over what to do with our lives. I know some guys, they have, uh, uh, more of a hard luck story to tell in that regard with their spouse. In my case, April and I have always been on the same sheet of paper, um, in, in a lot of those kinda key ways. And one of them was early when we started having kids. Uh, this would've been, excuse me, Don, would've been, uh, let's see. We're in 2026, so about the year 2000. When we started having, uh, boys and I knew we wanted to train our boys in ways that were biblical and in ways that prepared them to be strong young men. in that light, we started doing things with them even when they were really young, whether that was bible story time, or bedtimes or books and things we put in front of 'em. Or even story books or tapes, audio tapes. People are like, what's a tape? I'm like, I know. Sorry, I'm really old. Um. That morphed into over time us developing a list of character traits we wanted to be true about our sons. That list became some of the early feedstock to some Bible studies we built along those lines. And then we kind of scratched our chin and we're like, why couldn't we put these on a website? And that was really the genesis of Manhood Journey, was trying to help other dads teach their kids scripture and how to grow up and be godly young men and women. Um, and we started in the father Son space.

Don Ross 3:32

Yeah. Very cool. We, uh, so like maybe to that point, why dads in particular was there, you know, as opposed to just men in general or anything kind of more broad. There ministry wise, why? Why was that kind of what appealed to you?

Kent Evans 3:45

It seemed to be, well, A, it was the easiest thing for me to relate to 'cause I was am a dad, but I, I think it also represented the area of the least amount of resources. So

Don Ross 3:57

Hmm.

Kent Evans 3:58

if you go search women's Bible studies right now, oh my word,

Don Ross 4:02

Yeah, there's a lot.

Kent Evans 4:04

I won't say the name, but a friend of mine who used to do some editing for Women's Bible study world goes, oh yeah, if so and so released a Bible study on forest characters, we'd sell 10 million. You know, they were joking about the fact that anything these ladies would produce would be gobbled up by

Don Ross 4:19

Yeah,

Kent Evans 4:20

Christian women

Don Ross 4:21

yeah,

Kent Evans 4:21

to learn God's word. Well, go show me that parallel in the men's space, right? I don't

Don Ross 4:27

yeah.

Kent Evans 4:27

it.

Don Ross 4:27

Doesn't exist.

Kent Evans 4:29

I think there's a ton of reasons. You know, some of it's spiritual warfare, et cetera, laziness, et cetera, whatever. But at the end of the day, we just felt like it was an area of greater need we felt like, you know, as the father goes, so goes the family. And that's not or misogynistic, it's just look at the end of the day. Fathers are supposed to set a certain example and they're supposed to do certain things. And when they do those things, family outcomes are better. All the social scientists would agree with me, uh, even those who aren't Christian. And when they don't do those things, things are a lot worse. So it looked like an area of, uh, not enough resources and a big, big need.

Don Ross 5:06

Yeah. That's, that's tremendous, man. Uh, good for you for jumping into that space. 'cause I would agree, I mean, especially as a, uh, a dad who, you know, has got, uh, two teenage sons who are, you know, on the, the tail end of their years of living with me, um, I feel like in their younger years I was very much in that place of just kind of as a dad, not really sure what I was doing and not really sure where to turn to for help. You know, it just was kind of, uh, a little bit of a lonely island. And, and like you're saying, like I watched my wife. Uh, be involved in our women's ministry at our church and there were bible studies and moms groups and, you know, all kinds of things. And just, uh, that stuff didn't seem to exist for men really, very much. Uh, even just, you know, not that long ago.

Kent Evans 5:45

fact, you wanna know, it's funny, Don people ask me, Kent, who's your favorite Bible teacher? And I'll say, Kay, Arthur.

Don Ross 5:50

Yeah.

Kent Evans 5:51

Uh, and, and she's dead. She, she died about a year ago at the time of recording, uh, I think she was 91. And so I, I grew up in my twenties and thirties. I did, I did 75 of her Bible studies. I still

Don Ross 6:03

Yeah.

Kent Evans 6:03

she's probably in the modern era. They're probably the best or one of the best. Bible teachers,

Don Ross 6:09

Yeah.

Kent Evans 6:09

teachers that I've ever, ever, ever heard. And I'd go down a list of probably four or five women before I get to a guy. no offense to the guys out there creating resources. I'm just saying, man, and, and you know, I just think there's a lot of good value out there, uh, with women's resources

Don Ross 6:25

Yeah.

Kent Evans 6:26

I think men need to do some catch up.

Don Ross 6:28

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so we're, we're kind of dancing around. One of the questions that I, I've, I've been asking, uh, multiple guys now who are having this conversation with me, which is, you know, as we talk about the reality of there's, there's less resources available for men, there's less. Kind of activity going on for men in the church world. Uh, you know, one of the things that I pretty much consistently come across that I hear from both men involved in churches, uh, men who have been exposed to churches, men who are church leaders and pastors, is that, uh, men's ministries. Are for the most part, just kind of bad. Like they, they either don't work, guys don't wanna show up to them, pastors don't want to do them, you know, it is like across the board, uh, this just giant pain point when it comes to men's ministry. I, I, I'm kind of just curious like your perspective on that, like. As, as a guy who does men's ministry full time and does it, you know, alongside the church as opposed to just directly in a church, like why do you think churches struggle in this area so much and, and what have you seen being able to do it kind of outside the church a little bit?

Kent Evans 7:30

Yeah, I think there's, there's two things that I've observed that are probably the most counter-cultural, and what I mean by that is I'm not trying to be like Mr. Hot take or have some, you know, view that is just iconoclastic for the sake of being unique. think there's two things though that I don't see talked about very often. Number one. Most of the pastors in our country are men. The vast majority are males. They are men. I think they feel personally exposed when they start a men's ministry in a way that they don't feel exposed when they start a women's ministry.

Don Ross 8:06

Okay. Tell me what do you mean by the word exposed? Yeah,

Kent Evans 8:08

what I mean by exposed is if I'm the pastor of a church and we're gonna start a women's ministry, then don't gotta be a role model.

Don Ross 8:17

sure.

Kent Evans 8:17

a

Don Ross 8:17

Yeah.

Kent Evans 8:18

right? I, I don't gotta be a good woman for that thing to work well. Uh, I'm a man, so I help 'em run in. I show up. I occasionally pray over 'em. I might be the guy who signs off on the checks to budget for the, you know, the chili cookoff for the women. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but all I know is I don't walk into that environment feeling like uhoh, better bring my best self because I'm the example for this environment.

Don Ross 8:41

I'm not under the microscope there. Yeah,

Kent Evans 8:42

I think in the men's world, a lot of pastors feel that way.

Don Ross 8:46

yeah, sure.

Kent Evans 8:46

think it's broken. I don't think they should, and here, let me break that apart. But what I mean is they go, oh man, shoot. If I do a men's ministry, might have to give up that porn habit. Or if I do a men's ministry, need to start having an actual budget at my house. Or if I do a men's ministry, I might have to get to where my 13-year-old doesn't throw things at me every night

Don Ross 9:07

Yeah.

Kent Evans 9:08

Like they,

Don Ross 9:09

Yeah.

Kent Evans 9:09

start to feel. Like they should be a really good role model and example. And there's a way in which they are, right? They should, and there's a way in which they should not. way they should is, as Paul said in the scriptures, right? Follow me as I follow Christ. If I'm gonna lead a fatherhood ministry, I should be able to have you over to my house. Like I'm not doing it

Don Ross 9:30

Hmm.

Kent Evans 9:31

This is not like I'm not bringing you to perfection Island, but I should

Don Ross 9:34

Right, right.

Kent Evans 9:36

house and have you go. This dude takes fatherhood seriously. Like I'm not saying I got it all perfect. Don't misunderstand. the same time it says, follow me as I follow Christ. And so what happens often, both in our own homes as a dad and then in churches with running run by men, is they think, well, I've got to be the source. All of the wisdom and the good things around here. So I'm setting a good example, and that's a little broken. Like they're on the right track. They're on the right track, but they think they have to be the source. An example, an example, when we started Manhood Journey 15 years ago, now, almost 16 years ago, I asked a friend of mine if he wanted to be participate and be part of our core leadership team to start this fatherhood ministry, that none of us knew what it was really gonna be. And he said, oh. don't want to do that. And I said, why not? And he said, God, don't have my act together well enough to tell other dads how to do their act. It was really interesting to me, Don, he fully misunderstood the role of a servant and a conduit in the ecosystem of God's kingdom.

Don Ross 10:50

Yeah.

Kent Evans 10:51

Um, I wasn't asking him to be involved 'cause he was such a perfect dad.

Don Ross 10:55

Right.

Kent Evans 10:56

I don't pro preach the gospel of Kent. I preach the gospel of Jesus and I'm gonna do it imperfect and flawed and mess it up. And so I feel like a lot of pastors feel this pressure in the area of men's ministry that they probably should not, should not feel.

Don Ross 11:14

Yeah.

Kent Evans 11:15

secondly. Secondly, I would say the, the other big second thing that I don't hear talked about enough is just Satan hates men.

Don Ross 11:23

Hmm.

Kent Evans 11:23

I'm not saying he hates men more than women, but kind of. That's what I'm saying. And

Don Ross 11:27

Yeah. Uniquely, maybe. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 11:29

he definitely wants to derail. The father of a fan gi given two choices. If I gave Satan two choices and said, Hey, every marriage in this country, you can either derail the husband or you can derail the wife. What do you pick? He's gonna say, husband, a hundred times out of a hundred.

Don Ross 11:44

Yeah.

Kent Evans 11:45

there's a, there's a leadership component to being a godly man that he knows if he can get at the men in a society, he can do a lot more damage. We're we're the

Don Ross 11:55

Yeah.

Kent Evans 11:55

abuse women to begin with. We're,

Don Ross 11:57

Yep.

Kent Evans 11:58

would, would the, would the porn industry exist if it weren't for men?

Don Ross 12:03

No.

Kent Evans 12:03

um, prostitution industry exist if it weren't for men?

Don Ross 12:06

No.

Kent Evans 12:07

those industries, not

Don Ross 12:08

Yeah.

Kent Evans 12:08

who wanna do those things. It's the men. And so I, I look at that and think, man, I, pastors feel exposed to this area. And there is a massive spiritual battle against men's ministries in ways that I don't think the same battle exists in the women's area.

Don Ross 12:24

Hmm. Dude, that's, uh, that's tremendous. That's, um, that's actually encouraging for me to hear, uh, you bring those things up and to, to be able to talk about them. 'cause I, I think that, you know, the way that the,

Kent Evans 12:36

you know people will yell at me and not you. I know why you said it's encouraging. You're

Don Ross 12:40

oh, dude. I, I.

Kent Evans 12:41

Kent said it.

Don Ross 12:42

I don't mind getting yelled at. Right. I mean, I think any of us that are crazy enough to jump into this, uh, men's ministry space at the moment, just kind of understand that getting yelled at comes with the territory right now. So,

Kent Evans 12:51

yeah.

Don Ross 12:52

uh, you know, like, I, I don't mind that too much, but I, I think what you're saying is, uh, is critically important in terms of understanding the fact that like, yeah, there is something unique going on there when it comes to reaching men. At a spiritual level. And one of the ways that, that we talk about that here at Manhood Tribes is, uh, we deal with what we call our five marks of manhood. This is kind of how we understand what it looks like to be a man, how you live that out in the world. And one of those in particular is in the area of allegiance. Allegiance is what we say is really kind of about like learning to be a follower, learning to be under authority, and in particular, learning your ultimate authority and how to follow God well. And, and where this really comes into play and, and why we say that allegiance is a mark of manhood, um, is, is because 'cause, right? 'cause women have to learn allegiance as well. They have to learn to be followers as well. So what is it about allegiance for a man that's different for a woman? Why is that a mark of manhood? And uh, and we say that it's because if a man gets his allegiance right, if he gets that north star correct and gets his allegiance lined up correctly. It impacts not just his life, but the lives of everyone else around him, starting with his family, but then trickling out in so many other ways beyond him. That when a, when a man's direction is headed correctly, uh, it will impact so many people downstream. And that's unique to manhood in a way that's different from womanhood. And so that's why this allegiance piece kind of what you're talking about, it's, you know, like what you're saying. Uh, if we can take the men out, you know, if, if Satan can take the men out, you know, a hundred times out of a hundred. That's who he's gonna go after because of how the, the downstream impact that that has, you know, it's not just about the men individually. So I appreciate you just, you know, kind of bringing that up, because I don't think that gets talked about enough. And I, I think we're, we're almost a little afraid to talk about that in our culture. You know, it sounds, um, it sounds a little patriarchal. It sounds a little. Old school, you know, it sounds, uh, a little bit politically incorrect these days to kind of talk about the, the man's sort of outsized role in that way. Um, but I, you know, I think coming from just a truth angle and a spiritual angle, like if we're not willing to just be honest, like, hey, we can call it whatever you want to call it, but like, it, it is what it is. Like the pattern exists for a reason. And so if we're not addressing it, then we're, we're making ourselves weaker. You know, we're ignoring the fact that there is a real battle though. Going on there, there is something that actually needs to be done and, uh, yeah, it, it only happens if we call it out. So anyway, all that to say, uh, thank you for calling it out. I appreciate that. Um, but I do wanna go back to what you were saying, uh, on that first point about talking about pastors in general and just the microscope, you know, that they can kind of feel like they're under when it comes to, uh, starting a men's ministry or being a part of a men's ministry. And I, I really kind of want to ask a little bit from the perspective of, 'cause we, we got guys listening to this who. Enjoy. You know, being a part of doing stuff with men in their church, uh, their church leaders, uh, and they, and you know, I think from their perspective, it's, it's easy to miss the pressure that their pastors might feel like they're under as it relates to men's ministry. So what would you say to the guy who's. In a church wanting to do some men's ministry stuff, but is, is hitting roadblocks with his pastor and feeling like he, he doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know why his pastor's being antagonistic. Um, and, uh, you know, maybe his pastor's feeling some of that pressure, but this guy just doesn't know what to do, what to say, how to relate to his pastor about that. Well, how would you kind of encourage him or counsel him to approach his pastor as it relates to working with and doing mids ministry in his church?

Kent Evans 16:23

Well, I might start from a slightly different place, and I would say if you think your capacity to do ministry is constrained by your pastor, you're wrong

Don Ross 16:30

Okay.

Kent Evans 16:31

100% of the time you're wrong. And here's what I mean by that. If you mean you need church property to host your chili Cookoff. Okay, fine. You might need somebody to sign off on that or to

Don Ross 16:47

Yeah.

Kent Evans 16:47

or to pay the 50 bucks for the caterer. However, are you taking men to coffee and discipling them one-on-one?

Don Ross 16:57

Yeah.

Kent Evans 16:58

Are you inviting them over to your house and encouraging them in their marriage, in their parenting?

Don Ross 17:03

Yeah.

Kent Evans 17:04

Are you walking through scripture with your own family, et cetera. So like the, as soon as somebody pulls me aside and goes, man, I would do more ministry, but my pastor, I just

Don Ross 17:14

Hmm. Yeah.

Kent Evans 17:15

I love you. You're wrong. You're wrong. Um, saying go rogue and start hosting things at the church you don't get permission for. I'm saying most men want to abdicate and blame somebody for their life situation.

Don Ross 17:31

Yeah,

Kent Evans 17:31

And so you got a guy who goes, man, I would do more men's ministry if my pastor would support me more. Um, man, call me.

Don Ross 17:39

yeah,

Kent Evans 17:40

serious help. You need some serious help. And

Don Ross 17:42

yeah.

Kent Evans 17:42

your men's ministry, it's with

Don Ross 17:44

Right. Right. Yeah.

Kent Evans 17:45

is wrong. so at the end of the day, it's like, wait a minute. Time out. I remember when I was at, when I worked at a, at a, uh, as a deacon, served as a deacon at a church. The way that structure at the church worked, we were just servants. We took communion to shut-ins. We went to do, uh, funeral visitations. Um, we were like a backstop for, uh, volunteer support. You know, if there was an emergency thing, we all jumped in and helped. We were literally servants.

Don Ross 18:13

Yeah.

Kent Evans 18:14

However, some people got the idea that we had some kind of decision making authority, uh, in, in this particular church's, uh, know, authority structure. And so they would occasionally find out, see me on some role, or see me on some website and be like, oh gosh, Kent's a deacon. I, I offended people every couple of months, um, because they would take me to coffee and they would go, Hey, hey, you know what we need around this church? You know? And then they would fill in the blank.

Don Ross 18:40

Uhhuh.

Kent Evans 18:40

handicap work. We need more money, we need more people talking about election and predestination, whatever their little ax to grind was.

Don Ross 18:47

Yeah.

Kent Evans 18:47

And I was like, huh, that sounds like something you're really passionate

Don Ross 18:51

Yeah.

Kent Evans 18:52

I sure am. You know, was their answer. And I would go, man, that's really interesting. What are you doing in that area? And then they would look back at me like, what do you mean, what am I doing

Don Ross 19:01

What?

Kent Evans 19:01

Nothing.

Don Ross 19:02

Yeah. Crickets. Yeah.

Kent Evans 19:03

grow up. Go start doing the work.

Don Ross 19:08

Yeah.

Kent Evans 19:08

If you think you need your pastor's permission to be a Christian, in the, you're either in the wrong church or you're reading from the wrong Bible. Sorry.

Don Ross 19:17

Yeah. So good. Uh, dude, uh, like to me, that's the essence of Man Up, right? You know what I mean? Like, when we, I know the, the term and the phrase, uh, doesn't get thrown around much. It's kind of unpopular these days. But the point is like, hey, as men, uh, nobody's taking your agency away. Like, you gotta passion for something, go do it. You know, like.

Kent Evans 19:36

and, and Don, at the risk of, of guy's already offended, let's just go ahead and push him over the edge at the risk of fully offending the guy listening. Do you know why your pastor probably hasn't let you be in charge of the men's effort because you're not a good leader?

Don Ross 19:51

Hmm.

Kent Evans 19:52

And,

Don Ross 19:52

Okay. All right.

Kent Evans 19:53

So here's what's happening. Here's what's happening. You're coming outta the gate, being argumentative, being challenging. You have, you have a disproportionately single lens view on manhood. I'll explain. And then you put all that together and go, how come I'm not in charge of the men's work around

Don Ross 20:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kent Evans 20:10

because you think the, you think the model man is Jocko Willink.

Don Ross 20:14

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 20:14

Jocko's great. I'm not anti Jocko, No, no, no, sorry. The model man is Jesus Christ.

Don Ross 20:21

Yeah.

Kent Evans 20:22

And so when you get outside of that and you're like, men's ministry equals hunting. Men's ministry equals watching the game.

Don Ross 20:31

Yeah.

Kent Evans 20:31

equals screaming about politics. out, time out. Men's ministry should equal How? How much more like Jesus Christ could we all be?

Don Ross 20:41

Yeah.

Kent Evans 20:42

And when you start putting Jesus in the center and you're asking those questions about, even to your point man, about like allegiance, right? Jesus said, John 6 38, I came not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me. So if you wanna talk about following,

Don Ross 20:56

Yeah.

Kent Evans 20:57

was a perfect follower

Don Ross 21:00

Yeah.

Kent Evans 21:01

before

Don Ross 21:01

see me, you see the father. Yep.

Kent Evans 21:03

right? He wasn't even a leader per se. He was a follower of God the father. And so like you go, all right, are you in submission? of the reason your pastor doesn't wanna trust you with the men's ministries is because you are not in submission and you

Don Ross 21:15

Yeah.

Kent Evans 21:16

and you talk about your pastor behind his back and you're not helpful and you don't

Don Ross 21:19

Yeah,

Kent Evans 21:19

him, and you don't take him to lunch and you don't bear his

Don Ross 21:22

And you wonder why your pastor doesn't wanna come to your men's ministry?

Kent Evans 21:24

hates men's ministry. No, he knows better than to entrust it to you.

Don Ross 21:28

Yeah.

Kent Evans 21:29

what we gotta do is we gotta demonstrate thoughtful Jesus centric leadership. We gotta come alongside our embattled and pressure packed life of our pastors, and we gotta say, Hey man, how can I support you? How can I support you? How can I be a help meet for you? How can I hold your arms up?

Don Ross 21:48

Yeah.

Kent Evans 21:49

Pastor and then after what's gonna happen a month or six or two years, he's gonna go, Hey man, now I know I can trust

Don Ross 21:55

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 21:55

Who can be entrusted? Little things will be entrusted much so a lot of guys out there kind of complaining about they don't get enough support from their pastor. They are the reason why.

Don Ross 22:06

Yeah. Oh, dude. Uh, all right guys, if you're listening, you're watching like that. Well, no, I'm gonna say there was your, uh, there was your three to five minutes of, uh, gold right there. Just go back and rewatch that part. Uh, I mean, like. Dude, that was a, that was a truth bomb that I think we all need to hear and perspective that just, you know, where is the pastor's opportunity to be able to say that out loud? You know, he doesn't really have one. So thank you Kent Evans for standing in the gap for all pastors everywhere and, uh, and saying what needed to be said. So that was great. Yeah, man, I like, uh, this, this fires me up actually, because you know what, what I have seen, and I want to ask you about this in a minute, but what I have seen with men's ministry over the years is that. There is an, I think, increasing hunger for guys to want to see more happening as it relates to doing ministry for men. I, I think that's, uh, that has changed and I think that's really good. Um, and at the same time, uh, it's not produced a lot of real positive fruit. Like the change in that desire, uh, has been good in that we, we want to see some things happening, but it hasn't just translated into, you know, that kind of rosy picture that you painted of women's ministry earlier where it's just. Like, there's all this stuff happening and there's life going on, and there's resources and materials and speakers and, you know, that doesn't, those aren't necessarily the only marks of, uh, you know, productive ministry. But, uh, you know, within the men's space, um, that hasn't come to life. And I think some of the reasons are exactly what you're saying. It's, there's heart issues among men as it relates to being good leaders and essentially being good followers. So,

Kent Evans 23:35

yeah,

Don Ross 23:35

uh, yeah. Well said. And I think it's an encouragement, guys to all of us that like, hey. You wanna do this work. Like it begins with you. It begins with you as a man and the heart that you are displaying in following Jesus first. And also being willing to follow your pastor, follow the leadership of your church, and be willing to serve him and, you know, see where God takes you in that. So, um, okay, I'll, uh, you got me up on the soapbox now, so I'll, I'll get back off of it and say, uh, yeah, let's, let's keep going. Okay, man. Let's, uh, let's get back to Manhood journey a little bit. I wanna ask you just. Uh, dude, uh, you're the father of five sons, which is insane. Um, blessings to your wife.

Kent Evans 24:11

Yeah, absolutely.

Don Ross 24:12

yeah. But I would love to know what has being a dad of sons and that many sons in particular, you know, spread out over multiple ages, what has that taught you about doing men's ministry and fatherhood ministry in particular? Like how has that shaped the way that you do manhood journey?

Kent Evans 24:27

Yeah, I think probably the main way, and you're right, April's amazing. Like, uh, honestly, she runs through scripture with our boys. She is a role model, uh, wife. She is brilliant. She's spiritually grounded. She

Don Ross 24:41

Hmm.

Kent Evans 24:41

I mean, like, bro, I, uh, am so thankful for her every single day that God gave me such a strong help meet in that regard. And so. Um, between her and God. You know, that's where the lion's share of the credit goes for how our boys have been discipled. Um, the main thing for me, man, is, uh, though it's not quite in context, the verse that says, what would it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? I see often guys who want to go and compensate um, their. Frustrations and leadership in the home. they go get really good at their job or they get really good at fantasy football,

Don Ross 25:22

Yeah.

Kent Evans 25:23

heaven forbid, they get really good at quote unquote ministry work. Right? And they go become, uh, very valuable at church. They become very valuable on Sunday afternoons. They become very valuable on Wednesday

Don Ross 25:33

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 25:35

but their family's like, yeah, great. Go spend some more time at church. 'cause you drive us crazy when you're

Don Ross 25:39

Right.

Kent Evans 25:40

Right?

Don Ross 25:40

Right.

Kent Evans 25:41

for me not, I don't feel, I don't feel pressure. The least. I don't feel one ounce pressure. am, however aware, keenly aware of the fact that I don't wanna succeed outside my home and fail inside it.

Don Ross 25:59

Hmm.

Kent Evans 25:59

My, one of my favorite authors is a guy named Mark Batterson And, uh, between him or John Maxwell, one of the two they like to say, um, the way Mark says it is, he says, my definition of success is when those who know me the best. Respect me the most.

Don Ross 26:16

Yeah.

Kent Evans 26:16

I'm like, Ooh, that is a good line. Or one of his lines in his, one of his ear earlier books, circle Maker, he just said, I just wanna be famous in my own home.

Don Ross 26:24

Yeah.

Kent Evans 26:24

love that line. That's just such a great line. Uh, and so what I find is, um, you, you show me a dude who wants to be effective in a ministry context. me, let me go over for dinner and see how he handles his wife and his kids. And you're just back to first, second Timothy qualifications of elders. Uh, how can a, how can a man govern the church if he can't run his own household? And so for me, okay, there's tons of things around here that don't work, right? I don't always have my finances all buttoned up. We're still working on a budget for the year and it's march and it's, so there's, I got issues, right? It's not, it's

Don Ross 26:57

Yeah.

Kent Evans 26:58

What I'm not confused by though is I'm not, it's kinda like the strike zone. Uh, Don, you mentioned how I like baseball. Uh, it's a little bit like strike zone. No pitcher in baseball is confused about the goal.

Don Ross 27:12

Right.

Kent Evans 27:12

It's not like he stands on the mountain and goes, I am not sure what to do next.

Don Ross 27:16

Yeah.

Kent Evans 27:17

There's a little box you wanna throw the ball in it, and you wanna make sure he doesn't hit it. Like the goal is super obvious.

Don Ross 27:23

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 27:23

obvious. And if you throw it and it goes way over your head, 500 feet, that's a bad one. Right? You know,

Don Ross 27:28

Yeah.

Kent Evans 27:28

the, the outcomes are simple. I'm not the least bit confused about the strike zone. As a husband or a dad, I miss it

Don Ross 27:41

Uh, yeah, sure. Yeah,

Kent Evans 27:43

I hit batters, I give up home runs.

Don Ross 27:46

yeah.

Kent Evans 27:46

not that I execute perfectly, but I'm not confused about the strike zone. So many men and fathers are confused about the strike zone.

Don Ross 27:55

Yeah.

Kent Evans 27:56

They think the strike zone is, have a million dollars, or send your kids to Harvard, or like what?

Don Ross 28:03

Yeah,

Kent Evans 28:04

become an elder.

Don Ross 28:05

yeah,

Kent Evans 28:05

whoa. Stop. I'm he

Don Ross 28:07

Make make sure all your kids get, uh, D one athletic scholarships. Yeah.

Kent Evans 28:11

who

Don Ross 28:11

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 28:11

to become an elder. It's a, it's a good work he desires to do. I'm not down on guys who desire to become an elder. What I'm saying is, that be when, when we, when we, when I finally went full time in the ministry work that I'm doing right now, I had my wife's hand firmly planted in my back going, let's go. I, every now and then, I was at an men's conference last weekend, Don, in Western Kentucky. And a guy came up to me and he goes, Hey, I got this idea. It's a nonprofit. I want it to take off. I wanna do this. Tell me what you did. And I just said, Hey, stop for a second. Are you married? And he goes, no. And I said, okay, then I'll skip all those things. But what I was gonna tell him is, what does your wife think?

Don Ross 28:54

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 28:55

Because if you think you're chasing God's will for your life, and you're married and your wife is screaming, stop, stop, stop from the sidelines. That is not God's will for your life. He does not desire for you to split up your marriage in order to succeed. And so the re I'm, I'm taking a long way to answer your question. I wanted to double down on my investment in my time with my wife and double down on my investment in my own time with my own children that I could be a legitimate, not perfect, not perfect, but a legitimate leader of a ministry. Because I don't want someone to come to my house and have them go, oh, manhood Journey. What a joke.

Don Ross 29:32

Hmm.

Kent Evans 29:32

If only dad could do this at home, wouldn't that be something? No, no. The opposite needs to be true. And so

Don Ross 29:38

Yeah.

Kent Evans 29:39

of us, um, the gateway to leading and doing more men's ministry work effectively is checking off the box. Am I a faithful husband? Am I an engaged in faithful dad? Not perfect. Not perfect. And that doesn't mean your kids are gonna respond well, like, you know, kids make choices. those things gotta be checked before you check the, Hey, am I a good men's leader?

Don Ross 30:01

Yeah. Uh, dude, that's fantastic. And, uh, I, again, I think, I mean, I, you know, it goes back to just that whole idea of like, it begins with you, it begins at a heart level of just what kind of man are you becoming? Uh, are you becoming the kind of man that God needs you to be, that he's created you to be? Do you have your priorities in order, the way that he would order them? Uh, you know, are, and, and who in your life is helping you to be able to examine those things? Do you have some men around you that are helping you check all of that out? Uh, so that you can be the kind of man that God would use, uh, you know, in the time and place when, uh, he's ready and you're ready to be able to do that? I mean, all, gosh, all of that is so good. And it's just too easy to rush past, right? It's too easy because I, I think, you know, most guys coming from either corporate backgrounds or, or whatever else, like, that's, we're just taught like rush the field, get, get there as fast as you can, you know, and, uh, and God consistently has a different timeline, a different plan altogether. Uh, he's not interested in quick success, if that's also gonna lead to quick failure. So, uh, we, we gotta make sure that we're building ourselves for, uh, or with the foundation that can actually sustain us for the work that he's calling us to do. So, yeah, well said. Um, okay, so having been in this space for a, a little while now, um, I'd love to know like what you have. Seen over the course of, uh, your journey with Manhood Journey and kind of like what's, what's, what's unique now at this point that maybe wasn't the same when you got started as it relates to men that you're working with, uh, the kind of work that you're doing, what you're focusing on. Uh, tell us what's changed.

Kent Evans 31:32

Yeah, I, I, I would say a couple things. One. When you look at, and, and I don't, um, I don't put tons and tons of stock like, what I would call cultural or societal trends.

Don Ross 31:45

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 31:46

ebb and flow and I, I'm, I'm not saying they're not real. I'm just saying I think sometimes they tend to rebound and come

Don Ross 31:52

Yeah.

Kent Evans 31:53

sometimes we'll be like, oh no one's eating carbs. And so then we tell 'em not to eat carbs and then it goes down even less. And we go, gosh, look, no carbs. Well, we kind of fed that monster to pardon the pun. And so I think sometimes we affect societal trends by looking at 'em too long. What I

Don Ross 32:06

Yeah.

Kent Evans 32:06

is relevant for our day and time is family makeup is very different than it was 30, 40 years ago, right?

Don Ross 32:12

Yeah.

Kent Evans 32:13

Um, the whole two parent household kids grew up with a dad and a mom. That's just not the most common experience

Don Ross 32:20

Right.

Kent Evans 32:21

And

Don Ross 32:21

Yeah.

Kent Evans 32:21

so. I, I wanted to go back there, right? We're doing like kitchen table stuff and there's a whole separate podcast we might launch to help create biblical conversation around the dinner table, et cetera.

Don Ross 32:31

Yeah. Yeah.

Kent Evans 32:32

counsel me and say, don't launch that. No one eats dinner together. And I'm like,

Don Ross 32:35

Ugh,

Kent Evans 32:36

I wanna

Don Ross 32:36

right? Yeah,

Kent Evans 32:38

but having said that, societal shifts in what is normal for a family. Man, very different than 1980

Don Ross 32:47

yeah,

Kent Evans 32:48

1990.

Don Ross 32:49

Yeah.

Kent Evans 32:49

very, very important at a, at a macro level, um, at a, at a micro level, at Manhood Journey, what we're trying to do is walk this balance between creating content where we are, the, um, the source. Versus creating content where scripture is the source. Like the last thing I want is somebody to walk up to me and go, Kent, I'm following your five part plan for fatherhood. Or I'm, I read your book and I'm like, okay. Whoa. Did my book lead you to read scripture?

Don Ross 33:22

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 33:23

did my book cause you to pray more? my book, did my podcast cause you to, to, to start leading your family in devotions or to start tithing? if, if we did something like that, then I'm like, awesome. Right. I want our resources to push you toward scripture, fasting, your local church. Right. I want pastors to call me and go, Hey man, last 10 guys who showed up to volunteer, they all said it was 'cause of something you said on your podcast.

Don Ross 33:58

Hmm.

Kent Evans 33:58

never happened. But man, that's, I would love for that to happen. So for

Don Ross 34:02

Right. Yeah.

Kent Evans 34:02

the macro trend of family dynamics is a big deal. The micro trend for us is, um, to try to create content that shoves people at tithing, local church, the scriptures. for us is the fun, uh, balance tightrope. We're trying to walk. Like I love Dave Ramsey's Seven Baby Steps to Financial Freedom. Right. Uh, super easy to understand. I've employed most of 'em, you know, we did a lot of work on debt when we were in our thirties and forties. Uh, and so I love Ramsey Financial and I've, I'm way better off financially for the work of Dave Ramsey. Having said that. All of his seven principles, just like your five marks of manhood, they're all grounded in scripture. Something

Don Ross 34:41

Yeah.

Kent Evans 34:42

than any of us.

Don Ross 34:44

Yeah.

Kent Evans 34:45

at the end of the day, that's the micro trend we're keeping our eye on is we don't want people to glorify me or manhood journey, or even fatherhood or men's ministry at all. We want them to glorify God, and we want the end product to be a tighter walk, a more devoted walk with Jesus. Man, that's a big win. Even if we get zero credit for it.

Don Ross 35:03

Uh, yeah. That's awesome. Uh, related to that, uh, because I know that you, you've done a lot with, uh, creating bible plans in particular on the, uh, the YouVersion Bible app. You know, just trying to help point guys to scripture and, and use that as a tool to be able to get them engaged in the scriptures. Um, I'm, I'm curious, uh, just what you have seen and learned through. Creating that kind of content over the years. 'cause you know, the, the typical narrative is guys, uh, a guys don't read. Right? That's, we'll start with that narrative number one.

Kent Evans 35:36

in

Don Ross 35:37

Yeah. Uh, but b uh, guys don't engage well with the scriptures. Right? I mean, we've talked about like men's Bible studies. There just aren't very many of them guys don't show up to that a lot. Uh, and I, you know, I would say in general. This is more anecdotally, uh, for me, you know, c would be that for the most part, guys aren't very familiar with the scriptures. They don't know them well unless they've grown up in some kind of, you know, uh, very heavily, uh, bible oriented home. Right. Uh, which is very rare these days. So I'm, I'm just kind of curious, like what has all of that content kind of taught you about men and the way that we do or don't engage well with the scriptures?

Kent Evans 36:16

Yeah, am. I'm working on, I'm trying to not become that dude. I'm 55. If you're, look, if you're watching this on video, you notice with the gray in my beard, I'm no longer a spring chicken and I'm trying to not develop that sort of like. Cynical old man complex. April and I, my wife, talk about it a lot.

Don Ross 36:35

Yeah.

Kent Evans 36:35

where we're like, uh, I was with a guy, I was with a guy last weekend at this same men's event I referenced a moment ago who is probably 70, 75, and he was a pastor for 35, 40 years, and he was the most encouraging and joyful guy in the room. So encouraging. He pulled

Don Ross 36:50

Yeah.

Kent Evans 36:51

at one point and goes, man, you're really good. Way to go.

Don Ross 36:54

Yeah,

Kent Evans 36:54

oh my goodness. He could probably find 40 things wrong with what I said this

Don Ross 36:57

yeah.

Kent Evans 36:58

but instead he

Don Ross 36:59

That's what he offers. Yeah.

Kent Evans 37:01

Um, however, okay, so knowing that I don't wanna become the old cynic, you know, um, pray for me, please pray for me. Uh, if you're listening, I find most men do not have manhood problems or fatherhood problems. What they have are theology problems.

Don Ross 37:19

Okay. All right.

Kent Evans 37:20

full stop. Older I get the more I'm convinced of it. So, so I'll, I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. Um, one of my favorite words in the English language is the word because, and one of my least favorite words in the English language is the word because, and the reason is what we put after that word for most men is a bunch of lies and self justifications and rationalizations. For example, I struggle with internet pornography because when I was a child, stop, just stop. I'm not denying your experience as a child. I'm not minimizing it. What I'm saying is you're about to fight with God, whatever you say next, and here's why. Here's why. 'cause when I was a child, I was exposed to porn. 'cause my dad and my dad and my granddad, okay. I'm sorry that that's your story and that's real, and I'm not denying it. However, I distinctly remember reading in scripture Paul says, any man who loves Jesus is a new creation. You are a new creation. I also remember reading in Romans eight, one, there is no condemnation those who are in Christ Jesus. For what the law couldn't do. Jesus did. He set us free from sin and death.

Don Ross 38:43

Yeah.

Kent Evans 38:43

wait a minute. You go wait a minute, but that's not my story. So God's a liar. So God's a liar. Wh who? Which one's wrong here?

Don Ross 38:52

Yeah.

Kent Evans 38:52

you misinterpreted the power of the Holy Spirit, or is God just not really sure about what he says? And I find this Don over and over and over and over again. People say things with their mouth that directly con contradict the truth we see in scripture.

Don Ross 39:08

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:09

I'm not denying their experience. If you grew up in the south and you were a black man, you probably experienced racism. I

Don Ross 39:16

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:17

that you experienced racism, but if you hate everybody, that is now your problem.

Don Ross 39:23

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:23

That's not because of what happened to you, it's because you've chosen to hate them.

Don Ross 39:27

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:28

get angry with my kids, when I get angry with my kids and I yell at them, you know why I got yelled at them Because I chose to.

Don Ross 39:34

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:35

The end period. I'm in charge of my reaction. do I know this? Because on the cross, Jesus was hanging there crucified, asking his God to forgive the men, crucifying him.

Don Ross 39:48

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:48

some me time. He didn't need to process. needed to understand forgiveness can be extended even before people sin against me. that's

Don Ross 39:58

Yeah.

Kent Evans 39:59

That is the truth. So when I find myself out of alignment with God's truth, here's what I know, the problem is me. The problem is not God's truth. And so the older I get, the more I realize when guys go, well, I just thought when my kids got older, they would call me once in a while. My phone never rings. Interesting. you know, there's buttons on your side too, right? You

Don Ross 40:22

Yeah, it works both ways.

Kent Evans 40:23

like, like you can, you know, you can call 'em Yeah, but who's the adult here now? Are you

Don Ross 40:29

Yeah.

Kent Evans 40:30

school? What are we doing? And so at

Don Ross 40:31

Yeah.

Kent Evans 40:32

I just find these things all go back. To some misunderstanding of God's truth. They think their adult kids are supposed to serve them.

Don Ross 40:39

Yeah.

Kent Evans 40:40

Uh, here's a quick test the guy listening to, to this podcast. Call me, email me, text me you find the scripture that says your wife is supposed to give up her life for you,

Don Ross 40:54

Hmm.

Kent Evans 40:56

you will not find it

Don Ross 40:57

Yeah.

Kent Evans 40:58

cause it's not there.

Don Ross 40:59

Yeah.

Kent Evans 41:00

However, I can find you dozens. Where it says, I'm supposed to give up my wife for my life, give up my life for my wife.

Don Ross 41:07

Mm-hmm.

Kent Evans 41:08

Why? Because I'm Jesus in the equation. I'm the bride groom.

Don Ross 41:11

Yeah.

Kent Evans 41:11

She's the bride I am to sacrifice for her guys will say marriage is 50 50. Wrong. They'll say It's a hundred hundred, wrong marriage is a hundred zero. am to give 100% of me to my marriage, even if my wife gives me zero back,

Don Ross 41:28

Hmm.

Kent Evans 41:28

because why? Because Jesus said, love your wife as Christ loved the church, which

Don Ross 41:35

Yeah.

Kent Evans 41:35

him and crucified him, and lied about him and abandoned him. If he can do that. I can love my wife when she doesn't fix my ham sandwich the way that I want. And so a lot of guys just don't understand the scripture, Don. They don't know the truth. And then it leads them to drawing all kinds of conclusions about life that are flawed. Their starting point is broken, so all of their conclusions by default are gonna be broken. So, dad, listen, men, man, you could be 16, you could be 66. You could be 96. Hear what I'm saying? Now, know the word. Know God's word. And if you don't, it's not because your dad didn't teach you. It's not because teachers online aren't very effective. It's because you've chosen not to. You have more

Don Ross 42:17

Yeah.

Kent Evans 42:18

to know God's word today than ever in the history of mankind. We have no excuse,

Don Ross 42:23

Yeah.

Kent Evans 42:23

and you'll be guarded against drawing a bunch of crazy conclusions if you do.

Don Ross 42:28

Yeah. Oh, uh, so good. Uh, and honestly, man, I, I think that's probably where I wanna wrap it up. 'cause I would say, uh, I don't know that you're gonna do any better than that. So let's, uh, let's say, uh, that was fantastic and we'll, we'll leave it there, but dude, uh, I would agree and I would ask, um, I would just ask you as a, as a guy who's created a whole bunch of those kinds of resources, what would you point a man to if you had something that you wanted to? To give the guys as a way to be able to say, this is a great place to get started, either with the scriptures or to get started. Uh, if they're hearing you and thinking, I need to get around this Kent guy, how do they get started with Manhood Journey? Um, where would you send them?

Kent Evans 43:04

Yeah, I would say two things. One, they can go to our website, easy stuff, manhood journey.org. It's two words, manhood journey. Org and we got tons of stuff. You'll get to Bible app reading plans, you'll get to digital courses, you'll get to our podcast, you name it. And then secondly, this may sound like the, uh, a bit of a crazy place to start, but if you are trying to develop a relationship with God's word and you want, you want, you go, man, I know, I know what Kit said is true. Like, I know we gotta have a better relationship with God's word. I just don't know how. Go read the book of Psalms. Read Psalm one 19. Over and over again and just don't read

Don Ross 43:42

Hmm.

Kent Evans 43:42

until you feel about God's word. The way the author of Psalm one 19 feels about God's word and what you're gonna find is Psalm one 19 is a love letter written by We're not sure who most of the Psalms written by David. Little bit of question mark on Psalm one 19 that whoever wrote Psalm one 19 had a passionate love affair with God's word, and they didn't just see it as a source of information.

Don Ross 44:07

Yeah.

Kent Evans 44:08

Quite the opposite, like they saw it as health and life and water, and it's compared to a lamp, and it's

Don Ross 44:14

Yeah.

Kent Evans 44:14

a guard and a shield and a rampart and a safety. Go read Psalm one 19 and over again until you feel about God's word, the way the author of Psalm one 19 feels about God's word and you will have begun a love affair that will shape the rest of your life.

Don Ross 44:31

Yeah, tremendous. Kent. Uh, this has been a fantastic conversation, guys. We'll put, uh, some links in the show notes for you if you want to get more connected to Kent Evans and to Manhood Journey. Um, but I so appreciate your wisdom, uh, your devotion to Jesus, and, uh, just all the insight that you've offered us today. So, uh, thanks for being with us, man. Really appreciate your perspective.

Kent Evans 44:53

Don, the pleasure is mine. Thanks for having me on, brother. Love what you're doing.

Don Ross 44:56

Absolutely, dude.