Men Fall Apart Slowly—Not Because They're Broken, But Because They're Alone

Most men don’t fall apart overnight. They fall apart slowly… quietly… alone.

In this conversation with Matt Davis (founder of Ministry Transitions), we unpack a hard truth: many Christian men hit crisis—not because they’re uniquely broken—but because they have no real brotherhood around them when life starts to crack.

Matt shares his story of public failure, losing everything, and rebuilding his life from the ground up. But beneath the story is a deeper issue most men ignore: isolation.

No one to be honest with.
No one to carry the weight with.
No one to step in before things go off the rails.

This episode exposes why that’s so dangerous—and what it actually takes to change it.

In this episode, we cover:
 - Why men often don’t see their own downfall coming
 - How isolation quietly leads to failure (in marriage, faith, and life)
 - Why having people around you isn’t the same as being known
 - The hidden loneliness of pastors and leaders
 - What real brotherhood looks like—and why you need it before crisis hits
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Episode 081: Men Fall Apart Slowly—Not Because They're Broken, But Because They're Alone

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
01:00 Matt’s story: when everything falls apart
05:00 Life after “day zero”
10:00 The real problem: isolation, not just failure
15:00 Why men expect too much from their wife (and too little from brotherhood)
20:00 Emotional disconnection and why men stay silent
24:00 The hidden loneliness of pastors
28:00 Why vulnerability feels unsafe for leaders
32:00 Choosing discomfort: the path to real connection
36:00 How to support a man in crisis
40:00 Final encouragement + challenge

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Transcript

Don Ross 0:02

Men, welcome back to the Manhood Tribe Show. I'm your host, Don, and I'm really glad to get to be with you again today. If you've been along for the ride for the past few weeks, or even if you're jumping in new here today, on this episode, we're doing something really fun right now where we are talking to a number of guys who are leaders in men's ministry and the men's work. Space. Just trying to be able to help reach and serve men kind of in all types of different contexts. And we're really kinda asking the question of why is it that most men's ministries are really just kind of bad. They're, they're not places that most guys want to connect. It's not a place that guys find themselves drawn to. Most churches really struggle with being able to have a men's ministry, let alone to be able to do it well. And so we're trying to kind of explore why is that, what's that about? And are there ways, are there ways that we can think about doing that better? So I'm really excited to have on the show today, our guest and a friend of mine, Matt Davis. Matt is the founder of Ministry Transitions, where he helps leaders both in ministry and in the marketplace, navigate some of the hardest seasons of their lives. When the role ends, a chapter closes, and the question kind of becomes what's next after this? He also hosts the Life After Ministry podcast where he shares real stories of men who faced loss, change and reinvention and have found their footing again. So this is gonna be a unique angle, uh, where we get to hear about some things that affect the lives of pastors, pastors who have to transition out of ministry, um, and really what the role of men in the church and men's ministry can and could be, uh, as it affects the pastors around us. So Matt, really glad to have you on the show today. Welcome, man.

Matt Davis 1:46

Good to be here, Don. Thank you.

Don Ross 1:49

Absolutely. Okay. So I wanna start with, uh, I know just in, in the time that you and I have been able to talk with each other that your work with Ministry Transitions really is kind of born out of your own personal story. So I'd love to just start there, man. Why don't you tell us, um, a little bit about yourself and, uh, and kind of what's happened in your journey that's allowed you to kind of be at this place of, of doing the work of ministry transitions.

Matt Davis 2:13

Yeah. To make a long story, very long story short, uh, I was in ministry, I was serving the church. I, I, I did the normal rotation of coming in as an intern working with children and youth. And then, uh, you stay there long enough. Eventually you go through this life cycle of. know, you go from an intern to a director to maybe they'll make you a pastor one day. And so I was doing that and then my marriage fell apart the first time and then we survived and they made me the marriage pastor, marriage and family.

Don Ross 2:42

Oh wow.

Matt Davis 2:43

also a teaching pastor, executive pastor. Uh, and then our marriage fell apart the second time. And, uh, the second time was the hard one. Uh, in that. Uh, it, it was the, the, the force that, uh, brought me out of ministry, uh, as I knew it. And so I had a moral failure, uh, very public, uh, very painful season and process. And, uh, thankfully, um, my family survived. My marriage survived. I

Don Ross 3:10

Hm.

Matt Davis 3:11

Uh, and I'd say that there are probably moments in, in the last decade where I thought none of those would survive. And so. I'm very thankful to be on the other side of that and getting to walk with people in, in very similar circumstances, trying to figure out do you do with, uh, the mess that you've made of your own life in many ways, and how did I get here? Um, and how do I make sure I never go back? And so that's been a little bit of the work of what we've been doing in ministry transitions is just walking people. I mean, transition in life is inevitable, right? We can't ever.

Don Ross 3:44

Yeah.

Matt Davis 3:46

Uh, we can't avoid that. And some of those are thrust upon us and some of 'em we've walked right into ourselves. And so, uh, it's kind of the greatest honor and joy to redeem some of the, the painful parts of life and with people in those seasons for themselves.

Don Ross 4:02

Yeah. Uh, that's great, man. Thank you for your, uh, just for your candor. Um, even, I know that's probably a, a hard way to start probably every podcast that you're on to, uh, to be able to tell that story again. Um, but thank you for the, the courage in that as well. Um, but I'd love to hear a little bit of. Uh, what did that, you know, you kind of talked about like the work involved in, um, that, that kind of transition season, not only to figure out your next steps, like job wise, you know, like how to be able to get a job that pays the bills for your family when you're transitioning out of ministry. But, um, but also the, the work of just dealing with yourself and who you were as a man and, and you know, what all happened there. So tell us some of that. Maybe, maybe start with the, with the job and career stuff and then, um, let's do a little more of the, like the interpersonal work.

Matt Davis 4:46

Yeah. Well one of the things that we talk about on, uh, we, we had a podcast and, and honestly, like even to talk about any of it is almost laughable on my side of. Things because this is not like some gracious wonderful, like, uh, overcoming all odds story, except that it is, it just, it didn't feel as great as I was going through it, right? And so

Don Ross 5:07

Yeah.

Matt Davis 5:08

my wife and I started a podcast called Life After Ministry, and it really was based on this idea that if your last day in vocational ministry is day zero. What do you do on day one to start rebuilding your life? And what do you do particularly in the, in the church world? Like, what do you do if your education is, you went to seminary and you stood behind a pulpit and preached for a long time. Like how, how do you make that transition from into the marketplace? And so figuring that out became. Number one, first and foremost, it was the life I was trying to live. And so that, that was really an ugly season. I remember working for a California state run version of Uber. Um, so you paid by the state, but I would pick up, uh, old folks who needed to go to dialysis. I'd be picking up homeless people who needed to go to their methadone clinics.

Don Ross 6:01

Oh.

Matt Davis 6:01

and I can't tell you, and this was like, some of this was during COVID, um, but like how many times like people would just soil the back of

Don Ross 6:09

Oh

Matt Davis 6:10

of my car

Don Ross 6:11

gosh.

Matt Davis 6:12

like, this is, this is where I'm at in

Don Ross 6:15

Yeah.

Matt Davis 6:17

um, how do I clean this mess up while I'm trying to clean all the other messes up? But, you know, uniquely, this is not just a pastor or a church thing like. Everybody has some point in their life where day zero hits and we have to figure out like what, what we planned and what we thought was going to happen. It isn't happening. And now we have to deal with the loss, the residue, the shame, um, the, the betrayal in some cases. Like what does that look like to rebuild your life? And so we had to get very clear, very fast in a lot of different areas, but specifically, uh, career, what am I gonna do to earn a living? Um. Coaching. I need a lot of people to come alongside and just rebuild because I was living in a spot where shame was running the narrative and then counseling. Uh, and when I think about counseling, I needed counseling. My marriage needed counseling. My wife needed her own counseling. We had family counseling. Like we took counseling from every absolutely every single, um, position possible. And so. You know, thankfully, I, I think it's because of our openness to all of that. And, uh, there's a quote that it's, it, it talks about, I think it's Maya Angelou who she says, um, that the hardest, the hardest thing is to be a novice again, and, um, to have to start back in the beginning, is, is very difficult. And so we. We had to go, uh, what what do you do when you're kind of at ground zero and you, you hit bottom and what do you, what do you do from that point? So we had to get real clear on that real fast while also just kind of recovering from a self-inflicted wound.

Don Ross 8:01

Uh, that's good. I, um, I, I hear and, uh, and know and imagine, uh, much more of the, the pain that you're having to describe there and just what that looks like. And, you know, even just the, the reality of like, I need counseling. My wife needs counseling, my kids need counseling, our marriage needs counseling. You know, it's just. The, the multifaceted, multi angled approach to having to deal with, um, what's it gonna look like to be able to grow out of this very, uh, difficult place of pain and transition. That's good, man. I, I appreciate your, uh, just your honesty and being able to paint that picture. Um, I, I've, I've heard you mention a little bit, uh, kind of, uh, a story, your own sort of like ice tray story as you call it. Um, it tell us a little bit about that and what the areas of your life were that you kind of really had to face. Um, related to that story.

Matt Davis 8:50

Uh, it was one of our, our counseling sessions where I had, uh, this awakening You, you go into marriage specifically thinking there, there's this image of what that's all going to be look looking like. And you think of like the Jerry McGuire story of like, you complete me moment. And, um, I, you know, even though I was warned against that, I, I still thought like, well this is, she's my everything and she's gonna fulfill all of my needs. And, the truth is, uh, she didn't and nor nor did I for her. Um, and I started to see like. pictured you remember the old school ice trays? In fact, I brought one because this is, I have this up in my office. But you remember these?

Don Ross 9:35

Oh yeah, Uhhuh.

Matt Davis 9:36

Yeah. This is like

Don Ross 9:37

They're not that old man. I still find 'em. We go to Airbnbs and they're still in the freezer, so yeah, they're not that old.

Matt Davis 9:43

My, my kids don't know what this is, so

Don Ross 9:45

Yeah.

Matt Davis 9:45

had to talk 'cause they think that just ice just magically grows out of the

Don Ross 9:49

Yeah. Right. Yeah, of course.

Matt Davis 9:51

in the day. So I, I thought like, okay. When I get married, if my heart was like this ice cube tray that Marilee my wife, she would fill up every part of this. And that's what I put on her. I didn't realize, uh, that expectation was very suffocating. It was very difficult for her. Um, and so I would look at parts and containers, like segments of my, my life, um, my heart, and I'd start to see like there were places that were not getting filled up. And that began to form some bitterness and resentment in me towards her, um, because I didn't see her pouring in and filling up all of these. And so the, the harder part was that I saw her pouring herself out. Other

Don Ross 10:41

Mm-hmm.

Matt Davis 10:42

to see

Don Ross 10:43

Yeah.

Matt Davis 10:43

friendships and her relationships. Um, I'm like, why is she doing that for them and

Don Ross 10:49

Yeah. Why not me? Yeah.

Matt Davis 10:51

right? And, and then like all of a sudden, like, she's like, you know, they say your heart grows and you have kids. I'm thinking, well, like. That means that there's gonna be even I, I lived out this like scarcity piece of it and

Don Ross 11:02

Hmm.

Matt Davis 11:03

finally we had this like knock down drag out piece and she said, Matt, don't you understand? Like, don't, don't you remember when I, I poured out and I was pouring here and pouring there and pouring here and, and I was like, that's right man. She was doing that. Like she did do that. And she did say this to me. And then she did come over over and, and she, she sought me out and she started pouring. But what, what I realized is. She, and she was the one that told me, this is how I realized it, but she said, Matt, don't you understand that? Like I'm pouring in but it's leaking out. And I remember the therapist saying, Matt, like when she does something, you've gotta like zip it up. You've gotta seal it up because it's coming out the bottom. And we, we

Don Ross 11:41

Hmm.

Matt Davis 11:41

kind of picture, and this is where like I started to

Don Ross 11:44

Oh wow. Yeah.

Matt Davis 11:46

this is what my heart and my life look like. And I was not only expecting her to. Fill all of this up, but also like I needed her to like kinda somehow like seal these holes in there that I had in my own life. And she said like, I didn't sign up for that. Like, that's,

Don Ross 12:03

Yeah.

Matt Davis 12:04

side of the street. And I thought,

Don Ross 12:05

Yeah.

Matt Davis 12:06

we're married. Aren't you supposed to do everything for me? And it was so, so naive, but I had to learn that the hard way. And so this became my work. Um, this became. place where I needed to focus, so that number one, when she was pouring out that love would hold, like

Don Ross 12:22

Yeah.

Matt Davis 12:23

just kind of filter out the bottom right. And that's that everything that goes into these, these holes, this, the holes are my woundedness. These are the places where

Don Ross 12:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Davis 12:33

broken and cracked and um, and didn't get repaired. And it's just kind of been sitting there for a long time. the other piece that, that we had to come to agreement on was that she was not responsible for all of it, and I actually realized that I needed to diversify. Um, how I get filled and how I get loved. And if my old model of marriage was that she is responsible for filling all of this, um, that, that's not, that's not reasonable. Um, and it's not a good marriage either. Um, that she gets one of these maybe a little bit bigger one, she's priority, right? Um, but she gets one of these, my kids all hold a piece of my heart. Um, and then. I started needing like this, I didn't have any hobbies. Like, I literally just went to work and I came home, went to work, and came home and work became like bigger and bigger. And so work all of a sudden started filling up more of this space and, um, and that became like this mistress for me.

Don Ross 13:37

Yeah.

Matt Davis 13:37

then I realized like also I, I didn't have great friendships and so.

Don Ross 13:41

Mm-hmm.

Matt Davis 13:41

I had to spend quite a bit of time and I still do, like, I still need to like be cognizant of this in my life, but, um, I need friendships, um, with guys especially be able to, um, fill myself up and as I'm working on kind ceiling up these holes, these wounds and addressing those. On my own, um, with support from my wife, but not making her do the lifting and the working in the ceiling. Um, as, as I start to do that work and as I start to find some of these other channels that will also fill me up and that's totally okay. Number one, she doesn't have to be responsible for all of that, I'm starting to grow and I'm becoming the person, the kind of person. that holds love, um, wherever it's poured out. And, uh, then I started to see like, when my wife is pouring out, like it's, it's a much, much different story today. So,

Don Ross 14:35

Yeah.

Matt Davis 14:35

that's, that's been the journey and I just keep it out in my office 'cause I need to be reminded, like it's not, don't make it all about her,

Don Ross 14:44

Right.

Matt Davis 14:45

sacrilege like to some people, but it's been, it's been a really helpful piece for me. A reminder.

Don Ross 14:50

Uh, uh, dude, I think that's great. I mean, um, what a, a what a fantastic metaphor and image, you know, for, uh, I think what is probably true in a lot of guys' lives, I think the, the reality of, um. Uh, our wives or really any of the important people in our lives pouring into us. But then the fact that we've got holes in the bottom of our ice tray, uh, and all of that love, uh, all of that care value support, it just leaks out, right? Because we're, we haven't dealt with. Our own stuff, the things that have shaped us, that have wounded us, that have broken us, that have, uh, contributed to the ways that we are not living well and that we as men, you know, haven't really faced, haven't really taken care of, uh, that's so important and, and don't have the people around us to even be able to do that if we wanted to. Right? Like, where are we gonna do that? Uh, that kind of context is really so important. So I, I appreciate all of that. So. I wanted to say like, kind of keep that thread going a little bit. 'cause I'm, I'm curious, and you've started, you know, by naming a bunch of it, but in this transition season, like just as a man, what, what did this reveal to you about some of those things, like what some of those holes were or why they were there in the first place? What did you learn about yourself as you kind of went through this process?

Matt Davis 16:04

Uh, I saw my own isolation. I saw that. The weirdness of that is that I was also standing in front of thousands of people, you know, at church on Sundays. And so

Don Ross 16:18

Yeah.

Matt Davis 16:18

almost become the, the story you start to tell yourself is, I'm not lonely, I'm not isolated. Look at all of this. Like everybody, I go into, you know, trader Joe's or go to a restaurant and I'm known,

Don Ross 16:31

Right.

Matt Davis 16:32

not known

Don Ross 16:33

Yeah.

Matt Davis 16:34

Um, so that piece, that piece really, um, started to get to me. Uh, the other piece for me was the unraveling of, uh, my heart in some ways, not, not necessarily understanding like what was going on internally. And

Don Ross 16:50

Yeah.

Matt Davis 16:51

I. I'm sure you talk about this quite a bit in the community, but being, being a guy, I've found, and I've, I've done a lot of, um, like couples coaching and counseling, um, not just for myself, but I've, you know, one of the, the advantages is you learn a little bit along the way. You get to help other people in, in that space. But, um, I continue to see lots of guys that are, I, I understand when I say this, that it's gonna. It's gonna set somebody off. But the idea that we're, we're just not in touch with what we feel, we we're unaware of what's happening on the inside. the, the way that probably most of us hear it is like, we're not in touch with our emotions or our emotional side. And so some guys are like, uh, uh, whatever. Uh, but I, I realized like, so one of our, like when, when we, we call it 1.0 when our marriage fell apart the first time, um, we got away and did a six week sabbatical, uh, at a place that when we were told about it. Uh, I, I pictured it was like an insane asylum where everybody wore hospital gowns and you could see their butts.

Don Ross 17:55

Yeah.

Matt Davis 17:55

Um, but it's so interesting 'cause they said, we're gonna look at your life like a house, and we're gonna have pastoral counseling from this window. We're gonna have marriage counseling. Uh, and then we had like a guys group and my wife went to a women's group and I thought the most interesting that happened, thing that happened was, and by the way, this saved this, this process and season saved our marriage the first time, but. Um, I was in the guys group and you show up and there's eight, eight guys in the room and we sat in a circle. And the funny thing is when you get eight guys sitting in a circle, the one place we all look is down,

Don Ross 18:31

Yeah.

Matt Davis 18:31

not a lot of eye

Don Ross 18:32

Yeah.

Matt Davis 18:32

right?

Don Ross 18:33

awkward, right?

Matt Davis 18:34

or super awkward, we get a lot of space. It's almost like, you know, going to the urinals or something

Don Ross 18:38

Yeah.

Matt Davis 18:39

some space. Um, but on the floor was this big circular thing called a feeling wheel. Uh, have you seen the feeling wheel where like, it, it, it looks

Don Ross 18:49

Like the different colors.

Matt Davis 18:51

different colors and

Don Ross 18:52

Yeah. Uhhuh,

Matt Davis 18:53

emotions, and it starts out in the very center with like, sad, mad,

Don Ross 18:57

and the basics. Yeah. Uhhuh.

Matt Davis 18:59

it's the basics. Um, and, and the, the facilitator would just say something like, so where are you guys at today? And the great thing was, everybody's looking at the floor already, so we at least had this feeling wheel and we had to like pick one, two, or three, uh, where we're at. And I realized like. I have no clue. I have zero clue

Don Ross 19:19

Yeah.

Matt Davis 19:19

on where I'm at. Like, what is a feeling? I have feelings. I just don't know. Like, I don't have words for these

Don Ross 19:25

Yeah. I dunno how to name 'em. Yeah,

Matt Davis 19:28

I wasn't like tied to a post and beat when I was a kid. I was, I

Don Ross 19:30

right.

Matt Davis 19:31

a good home, but we, we just didn't talk about that. And, and so I, I had this feeling like. I grew up with this like the box of eight crayons, and so I could like speak in terms of like red, green, and blue.

Don Ross 19:49

Yeah.

Matt Davis 19:49

there's like other people, like when it came to their emotions, they had like chartreuse, right? And like all these like crazy, like burnt sienna. I'm like,

Don Ross 19:58

Yeah.

Matt Davis 19:58

that? and the thing is, I, I think sometimes we, we think as guys. Uh, I'm a dude. Like, I don't, I don't have all that, but you are actually like, I believe that God programmed us. With all of them. Like I, I, I thought I had the eight pack, or maybe even like the, the restaurant like kitty three pack or four pack

Don Ross 20:19

Mm-hmm.

Matt Davis 20:20

else had like the 64 pack. And the truth is, we, we were programmed with all of it. Um, and some of it's just been out of touch. And so that process of sitting. Around that circle with eight guys looking at the ground started to open me up. Um, and it started to help bring words to articulate what was going on in my heart in places where I couldn't. And realizing that that gap, um, prevented me from closer relationship, from intimacy with friends, from my wife, like all of these different areas. I had to start to learn how to articulate what was going on.

Don Ross 20:56

Yeah.

Matt Davis 20:56

so freeing actually, because you. Those things were already going on. I just couldn't, I, I just don, I would just eat or I would just drink. Um, because it didn't ask me how I was feeling. Like I, I knew what I could do with that. And, and so it was in the context of, of sitting with those dudes around a circle, looking at the ground where I started to learn of my heart.

Don Ross 21:18

Yeah. No, that's great, man. Uh, yeah, I, I think that's so important. And guys, if you're listening and, and can't relate, don't know what the, um, emotion wheel is that we're talking about, like, uh, I'd encourage you to, to search for it. It's not hard to find on the internet. There's lots of different versions of it. But it's so helpful and, and I think it's helpful because I, I, I think Matt, your, your story is probably emblematic of a lot of guys where it's like most guys are, are taught, maybe not so much intentionally, but, but taught by osmosis. Uh, to they, they ba we basically have two emotions, right? We're either, um, we're either angry or we're horny. That's basically it, you know, and, uh, and any emotion essentially kind of comes down to that. And so we s we attempt to solve all of our problems with aggression or sex. And, uh, that just doesn't, that doesn't actually cut it. That's, that's not a deep enough range for actually dealing with how life is. But we cover over most of our emotional experiences with some of those kinds of basic emotions and miss out on what? Is actually going on there. What God might be doing in our lives and, and how we could better relate to each other. Uh, all that's possible, but, uh, but we're not, we're not paying close enough attention and pretending that we're okay or that it's simple to deal with and sometimes it isn't. So I, I appreciate, uh, your perspective there. 'cause I think it's, uh, I, I think your every man and the way that, uh, you're, you're kind of telling your story there. So, uh, guys, pay attention. This is something, this is something for all of us to kind of learn to, uh, or learn from, uh, in terms of the way that we handle our emotions. I want to go back to something else that you kind of talked about though, just in terms of relating a little bit of your experience of being a pastor. Um, you know, being the guy on stage, uh, knowing lots of people being known, but not actually being known, you know, just, uh, kind of the way that you put it. And, uh, one, I just wanna say to the guys listening, um, some of you guys that are listening are pastors or are in some kind of ministry leadership. And as Matt is talking, you know, I've been in that place myself, like, uh. Uh, you relate, I, I know you relate, like, I, I know that that connects, you can identify with that experience wholeheartedly. Um, but for the other guys listening who, uh, you know, maybe you're just an average church goer, you might not be a church goer at all. Um, but your vision or understanding of your pastors or your people in ministry leadership or church leadership, uh, probably. Looks something like imagining that that guy has all the friends in his life he could ever possibly want. He knows everybody, like everybody knows him. He's the best connected guy there is. There's no way in the world that that guy could be lonely and. More often than not, the loneliest guy at your church, uh, is the guy at the top. It's the pastor, the guy who's on the stage, and, and not just a pastor, but any of the pastors who are regularly in front of a crowd who are well known by the people around them, um, but aren't actually fully known by hardly anybody. Uh, and so I want to try to talk. About that a little bit, uh, because I think that's probably a shock to most guys. I think it actually has some things to do with our conversation about men's ministries and why they tend to be so bad in the first place. Um. One of the things I wanna ask you about, I, I, I just had a conversation and I don't know exactly when these episodes are gonna air, so whose conversation is gonna come out first, but I had a conversation with a guy named Kent Evans, uh, who leads a ministry called Manhood Journey. And one of the things that he talked about in terms of why we were kind of talking about, um, the fact that less than 10% of churches in America have an active men's ministry. And we're just kinda talking about like, why is that, why do so free churches have those? And, and Kent said one of the reasons is, uh, pastors who for the most part are male, um, can sign off on a women's ministry fairly easily because it doesn't require anything of them, right? They, they don't have to show up to the women's events. They don't have to participate in the women's discussions. You know, there's a little bit of like leadership oversight, invol involved. But, uh, by and large, there's no commitment on the pastor's part for having to do that. But for a pastor to sign off on immense ministry. Creates a weird tension of, you know, he's a dude, is he gonna be involved in that? Is he gonna be expected to show up to those things? What if he doesn't like the things that they're doing? How does that, what kind of tension does that create for him? So, uh, what we see by and large is that most pastors, even if there is a men's ministry at their church, most pastors are not involved and don't show up to their men's ministry events. And so. I want you to just kind of speak to that, whether or not that's exactly the story that you hear from pastors that you work with or not. I, I want you to just kind of speak to that dynamic, like what's going on there with pastors as it relates to connecting with the men in their churches and why they, for the most part, don't do that Well.

Matt Davis 25:58

I, I would say it's probably never been harder to be a pastor. Uh, the ask is probably bigger and deeper and further than their expectation was to begin with. And, uh, I was just leading an event, uh, last week and pastor of the church showed up. I thought, man, I, I, I was, I was honored. I was thankful for it, but I just went to him afterwards and I said, I know you have a lot of asks. I know you have a lot of demands and everything is an exception and everything is, uh,

Don Ross 26:35

Yeah.

Matt Davis 26:36

is the most important thing. Or if farm, if our kind of sub ministry in the church is gonna survive. We have to have the pastor show up and so that, that gets hard. Um, and then you ask him to be put into a place of vulnerability. and there's a sense that I'm not safe. I'm not secure in my position. Um, more pastors than you think. are thinking that, uh, they're, they don't know. And unfortunately, like, you know, I, I'm sitting in the underbelly and I get to see a lot more of the, the trouble that is happening in the church, you know, the, a blindsided termination where walks into a normal elder board meeting and

Don Ross 27:19

Yeah.

Matt Davis 27:20

not

Don Ross 27:20

a job.

Matt Davis 27:21

anymore. Right? And so how do you, how do you do that? And, and then it's not just that I'm struggling and like, how do I help but you, you. To be vulnerable with a bunch of other dudes, could cost your position, right? So where, where do you get safe if you're a pastor, where do you the, the assumption is that we're all sinners, but we have a little less tolerance for our pastors being sinners. and so where can they go and. Be real and be honest. You know, I think the number one most confessed sin for pastors is pride because it's pretty close to about the only one that you can say and not lose your job.

Don Ross 28:03

Yeah. That they're allowed to. Yeah. Uhhuh.

Matt Davis 28:06

Right, but you can't, you can't say I'm struggling with pornography

Don Ross 28:11

Right.

Matt Davis 28:11

job. You can't struggle with the, there's just so many different places where it feels like it's a minefield, so. The safety of getting into a place where you're gonna be, you know, mono. A mono with a bunch of dudes in your church. Uh, it, I think most pastors would rather sign up for the men's ministry at another church in another state.

Don Ross 28:33

Yeah.

Matt Davis 28:34

and so that's, that's the, that's what's at stake. Um, if and when your pastor shows up. If they do show up, it means they want to, they care. Um, but they're also gonna be very guarded, uh, in terms of what gets revealed. And so

Don Ross 28:48

Yeah.

Matt Davis 28:49

that's, that's what we're up against.

Don Ross 28:51

Yeah. On the flip side of that, then, uh, for pastors, for, you know, for anybody who's in some kind of, uh, ministry or Christian leadership, um, one of the things I've heard you mention is just this idea that, uh. You've gotta choose, I'm, I'm gonna butcher the quote from you, but you gotta choose volunteer voluntary discomfort or involuntary discomfort will choose you. Did I get it right?

Matt Davis 29:15

Yeah.

Don Ross 29:16

Yeah. Okay. So talk to us about that, especially as it relates to pastors.

Matt Davis 29:22

Uh, I, I joined a community, uh, that my friend started, uh, and it's called Men and Women of Discomfort. And

Don Ross 29:32

What a what, what a, I mean like I'm sure it's an amazing community, but gosh, what an intimidating name to sign up for, right?

Matt Davis 29:39

I know my, when I told my

Don Ross 29:42

Yeah.

Matt Davis 29:42

Hey, my friend Dane's starting this thing. I think I wanna join. And you know, who, who, who would say, I'm gonna sign up for discomfort. But the whole premise is built on this idea. Uh, what if we chose voluntary discomfort? I'm gonna choose to put myself hard place. Um, so I can do the thing, I can grow the strength in the midst of that I have a situation where involuntary discomfort. Has already been chosen for me.

Don Ross 30:14

Yeah.

Matt Davis 30:15

what does it look like to be involved in a community where, and, and sometimes it's as simple as you take the stairs or the further parking spot. Sometimes it's the uncomfortable conversation I'm gonna lean into and choose right. Uh, it's, it's getting up early in the morning and getting the workout in. It's, it's choosing you know, go for the vegetables instead of the dessert, or choosing not to drink when you really want the second one, right? It's all of these different pieces. Um, what does that look like? And so it oftentimes though, I think that any time that we actually can step into. hard thing. I think we'll see fruit on the other side. And, uh, the funny piece is that the, the mascot for men and women of discomfort is a buffalo, it's based on this idea that the buffalo, I don't know if you've heard this, but, uh, buffaloes are unique in nature. The difference between a cow and a buffalo is that when a storm comes, cows will run away from the storm and buffaloes will charge into it, uh,

Don Ross 31:16

I have heard that. Yeah.

Matt Davis 31:18

They, they inherently know that if you charge into the storm, you'll get to the other side

Don Ross 31:23

Get out of it quicker. Yeah.

Matt Davis 31:25

the best vegetation is stirred up in the storm. you're the kind of person that charges into the storm, then you become the kind of person who's not afraid to run into those hard things. And

Don Ross 31:35

Hmm.

Matt Davis 31:36

um, it's a crazy community to be involved in. And at the same time, it's served me. In, in lots of different ways. And so the challenge is what, what does it look like to step into some of these things that are a bit uncomfortable for us? Um, and so for guys that might be starting a tribe and sitting around with a group of dudes looking at the floor and talking about where we're at. getting honest about it, um, or having that conversation. Um, one of my challenges in one of these, uh, seasons for, uh, men and women of discomfort was I needed to make sure that, uh, I did not perpetuate something that was, uh, in my own kinda lineage. And I wanted to make sure that my boys, especially, I have, my boys are 18 and 20, um. I wanted to make sure that they knew I loved them, not just because of acts of, you know, I'd put a roof over their head and buy them things, but I wanted them to hear it from me. And so my challenge for a quarter was to make sure I said, I love you, I would hug them,

Don Ross 32:36

Hmm.

Matt Davis 32:37

there's nothing more uncomfortable than to make somebody else uncomfortable.

Don Ross 32:41

Yeah.

Matt Davis 32:42

I just told them, I said, look, guys, um, I've, I'm, I'm giving myself a challenge, and partly it's because. I don't feel like I do a very good job of verbalizing this to you, and I wanna make sure that you know, and so I'm just gonna let you know every single day I'm gonna tell you I love you and I'm gonna hug you for at least five seconds. And whether you feel comfortable or uncomfortable is not. Sorry. But, um, I need to do this. And I found that by the end of it, um, our relationship changed. It was

Don Ross 33:10

Yeah.

Matt Davis 33:10

And as I was getting closer to like the end of a day, like one of them would remind Dad, I didn't get my hug yet today. And so it's become a thing. And now. It's easy. I can, I

Don Ross 33:20

Yeah.

Matt Davis 33:20

can hug my boys. And, uh, so it's, it's been that, that discipline has been really good. And so that's the encouragement is to step into your discomfort and find the thing. If it's hard for you, then it might be the right thing to do.

Don Ross 33:32

Yeah. Okay. Uh, I love this and I, you know, especially, um, this is, you know. This is part of what we do as tribes. Guys, if you're, you know, if you're listening, if you're not yet a part of a tribe, uh, you know, I just want you to know like, this is the kind of environment that we try to set up for men and we have specific ways of being able to do that, to help you kind of ease into that, learn what that looks like. Um, if. If you've listened to our podcast at all, you've heard me talk about the idea of getting naked, uh, how important it is to be able to strip down and deal with some of these vulnerabilities in the context of other men that you care about and that care about you. Um, there's just, there's just no other way to be able to handle some of these things. But I, I want to ask you, Matt, because I think this is really, um, you know, this is kind of pertinent to both your journey, um, and especially to, uh, guys in ministry leadership. Um, how does a, okay, this is a two-sided coin, so I'll let you answer both sides of it in whatever order you want to. Um, how does a pastor choose that in his local congregation? What, you know, what does that look like? Especially when, you know, as you mentioned, the stakes can be high, like choosing. Discomfort and that kind of, you know, raw vulnerability in your local congregation, uh, can put yourself at risk, put your family at risk. You know, like, so how do you, how as a pastor do you go about doing that? And then the flip side of that coin is how can men in the church, uh, help create. An environment of men connecting and being together where a pastor could actually do that. What does, what does that look like? Uh, to be able to create a space in your church where a pastor could choose voluntary discomfort instead of having to face it involuntarily at some place down the road?

Matt Davis 35:16

It's not easy. Um, I, I think number one, I, I wouldn't encourage a pastor to be foolish divulging everything to everyone. Um. I think that of our darkest, deepest struggles, some of the things that were really, they're, they're taking their toll on us, I think deserve a very limited, um, trusted audience. so I, I think, and, and it might, it might not be at your church. My hope is that it would, but that you have somebody or a couple of people that you can. really dig in and, and get honest, you know, it, it is hard, um, because I, I think what a lot of churchgoers want out of their pastoral leadership these days is, accountability. And I found that accountability really work. You can only create space for somebody to give an account. For their actions and what they're doing.

Don Ross 36:34

Yeah.

Matt Davis 36:35

and so it, it only works as, as far as we're willing to be honest about it.

Don Ross 36:40

Yeah.

Matt Davis 36:40

and so what does that look like for you? And I, I mean, this goes back to college days for me. Uh, I was, I was an ra and so we had our group there and I remember one of my good friends at the time, he said, Matt, you're nothing more than a piece of crap. So thank you. He said you might try to cover yourself up, spray some kind of like good fragrance on you so that you don't stink. But he says, I just want you to know I give you permission to smell around me. And I thought I need more friends like this.

Don Ross 37:10

Yeah.

Matt Davis 37:11

we all need friends like that. And so does that look like, um, to be able to. in and, and say, look, and, and doesn't mean, look, if you, if you are grossly sinning and you like, maybe the best place for you is not ministry and, and you might need a break, you might need to get out and and do something else. And so I'm not, I'm not trying to like keep pastor's jobs at all costs, I think. You could, you could forfeit your soul and, and do some of that, right? So what does that look like? But, um, how do we get honest and how do we get real before some of these things become a problem? Right? Before some of these things, when I, I have have these like un unintended to wounds that if left festered long enough, they start to, that that bitterness and resentment leads to some more damaging behavior, right? And so, um. You gotta find some people that you can say, I need to get really honest. And I, I'm looking for people who, um, can do that. And, and part of that's a trust building process, right? Like, um, I've, I've gotta trust, uh, in, in small doses before I can trust with some bigger things. And so that process takes time. Um, and then, and then for pastors, to be able, or, or for communities to be able to do that, like what, what can we do to be able to. create some safety and, and to be able to say, we, we care about you and, uh, we love you, and this is what it's gonna look like for us to be in relationship with one another. Um, you know, it, it's a, I, I wish it was an easier answer that like, if you do A, B and C, this is the formula and it's gonna work every single time.

Don Ross 38:52

Right.

Matt Davis 38:53

think it exists.

Don Ross 38:56

Um, okay. Well then let's, let's talk about on the other side of that then. Uh, if you're, if your guys, um, if your guy listening and, uh, the pastor at your church is dealing with or has dealt with some kind of fallout, scandal, failure, you know, whatever that looks like, uh, what does. Um, what does a helpful response look like? Right? You talked about like, you get to see the underbelly, um, of, uh, kind of the Christian dark, the church dark side, you know, in terms of the way that some of these things get handled poorly, um, how pastors and their families get abused and take advantage of in these types of situations. Um, what can men do to be able to love their pastors? Well, who have. Hit some kind of obstacle or a hardship or failure, um, that might require hard conversations or even like we're talking about a transition.

Matt Davis 39:59

It's, uh, it's for those, those seasons when the defecation hits the oscillation

Don Ross 40:04

Yeah.

Matt Davis 40:05

is what we say. Right? It's

Don Ross 40:08

Well put.

Matt Davis 40:09

Um, you know what, what's interesting is when I came out of ministry, uh, one of the things that. We had to do, which was really difficult, uh, was we, we had a school attached to our church and in order for, uh, our kids to continue to attend that school, while I was no longer employed at the church that ran that school, um, we needed to continue to attend the church. Um, just weeks after, uh, a confession letter, it was read right. And I'll never forget. Uh, about two months into that process that there is a guy who came up to me in the lobby after church as I was trying to escape and get back to my car. said, pastor, which I wasn't at the time. He said, pastor, I don't know what you did, but I'm sure as hell glad that the elders don't know what I've done. 'cause they would've kicked out a long time ago. And you just realize in that moment that people are watching How we treat each other in the midst of hard times. Either sends people into protection like this isn't safe or performance. I can't really be who I want to be or who I am. because that exposure is gonna do me in what, what does it look like, um, for us? be able to come alongside people and to be able to say, um, I'm gonna take you where you're at I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk, uh, with you. And, you know, some, sometimes I think when, when you have a tragedy that strikes and when there's something that is or traumatic, it's the onslaught of everything that happens right at the. The point of impact, right?

Don Ross 42:00

Yeah.

Matt Davis 42:01

I almost, I, it it's the, it's the atom bomb that goes off and just kind of clears everything in the way. and so that, that time and that exact moment might not be the best time because they're unraveling. but that's where you can leave a text. I'm here if and when you need me.

Don Ross 42:19

Yeah.

Matt Davis 42:20

but it's not, it's not like, you know, waiting two weeks and like, well, he never got back to me. Um, it's, it's hitting it again. Hey, uh, I've been, I've been in a similar spot. I know what it's like, um, to, to feel like you don't have anybody. And if you need somebody, I'm here. Um, you know, whatever that, or there, there were people who just said like, Hey, I wanna, I want to cover counseling for you for the next couple months.

Don Ross 42:44

Hmm.

Matt Davis 42:44

or, Hey, we have a cabin. Um, I know you guys probably need to get away. here's what that looks like, right? So how do we come alongside people? just remain consistent. We, one of the things we talk about in ministry transitions is I call it the Uriah Effect. You remember David and Bathsheba and David sends Uriah lines him up on the front line with all of his buddies, and they kind of all yell to charge. Here we go, Yaya And, and Uriah finds himself in the DMZ no man's land. And as his life is taken from him, he's not only. Getting pierced by the arrows of the enemy. But I'm sure that there was a moment for him where he realized I'm all alone out here. And the friendly fire probably killed him even harder,

Don Ross 43:30

Yeah.

Matt Davis 43:31

than, than the enemy's fire. And so we're, we're pretty good in the church, unfortunately, at shooting our wounded and kicking 'em while they're down. I in no way tolerate sin, but I have a lot more compassion for people who are sinners. I've, I've visited pastors in prison in the last couple of years, who deserve to be there and needed to be there, but they, they still contain, uh, they, they, they image bearers, right? And so,

Don Ross 44:03

Yeah.

Matt Davis 44:03

uh, who am I to judge just because my sins might be lesser? I'm guilty and so I, I want to come alongside people. I think that that's what we need to see more of. Um, sure there's egregious gross, uh, sin. How do we actually come alongside people and say. I'm still gonna love you. You have permission to smell.

Don Ross 44:21

Yeah.

Matt Davis 44:22

know your stench. Uh, and I'm gonna move towards you anyway. I mean, we, we go, we go visit, do prison ministry as it is already. we don't do so well at visiting people on their way in.

Don Ross 44:36

Yeah,

Matt Davis 44:37

gonna, we, we give a lot of distance and maybe, maybe we need to move a little bit closer, uh, in time.

Don Ross 44:43

dude. Uh, fantastic. The weight of wisdom that you're offering is, uh, solid gold right now. So, um, thank you. Uh, I know you've walked a hard road to be able to get to that place, to have it to offer, um, but thank you for offering it to us. And guys, as you're, you're watching or listening, um, I hope you're taking this in. I hope you're thinking about how you can apply it in your church context if you're a part of a church. Um. If you're not a part of a church, uh, I hope that you'll find one, um, or that you'll take this and use it to be able to show some empathy and some compassion and some help, uh, to the folks in your life who may be struggling themselves and to just recognize like, Hey, you're not alone in your struggles. And, and very often the people that are leading and serving the most, uh, are the ones who are struggling the most because they're the most in isolation about it. So what can you do to be able to serve those men who. Might be in need of that kind of connection. Um, and a place to be able to, uh. Choose some of that vulnerability that we talked about to be able to move towards it, uh, with a group of men who are safe. How can you create that for others? Uh, Matt, thank you for offering what you have today. Uh, what can guys do to be able to get connected with you or if they want to find out about ministry transitions and how it might serve their church, serve their pastor, serve, uh, you know, if they're, uh, aware of a situation that might need your help, what can they do to be able to get connected with you?

Matt Davis 46:11

Yeah, I, I'm a very accessible human being, so you can find me, uh, you know, our website's, ministry transitions.com. You can get me at matt@ministrytransitions.com. But, um, yeah, I realized along the way that Christians were really good at saying hello and we need a little bit of help on how we say goodbye. And so that's really the space. Uh, it doesn't have to be a ministry transition, but life is just full of transitions, right? We, we see it all over the place. We change and transition presidents every four years and. We change jobs and we change, uh, you know, living situations. So we're, we're accustomed to change. And so how we work through those seasons is, is super important. Um, I'd say there's maybe a couple things. We, if you go to ministry transitions.com/downloads, we have several things that you can download, but I'd say maybe for, for your crew, um, one that's been profound is we, we have a, a document on there called the Kingdom Principle of Transformational Suffering. Uh, and. One of these, we, we talk a lot about, uh, to suffer in the sufferings of Jesus, but also, uh, the, the next part of that we often leave out is that we're also glorified in, in his glory. And so what does it look like to even just see some of those seasons where you're struggling, um, as moments of like God meeting you? The other piece in there is, is just, I, I call it a field journal for people who are in transition. Uh, and we talk about these seasons of the soul. Um, how we move from, uh, orientation, which everything's fine to suddenly we find ourselves in the wilderness of disorientation. And what we want oftentimes in that wilderness season of disorientation is just get me back to where I was. And sometimes there's no going back and there's only going forward. And that going forward is what we'd call reorientation. Um, and so tracing that journey, if you find yourself like. rug just got pulled out from you in your life and you're trying to figure out what's next. Um, and how do I get to a new normal, uh, reorienting my life in, in, in the equilibrium, um, that, you know, there's, or, or the other way of looking at it is order disorder reorder. But, um, how do we do that? So there's just a, a quick, like, it's a 10 page, but like very graphic oriented journal and some scriptures that tie into that. And uh, I think those would be some. Helpful resources along the way. And if, if, you know, uh, if you've seen or looking at transition, in your company, uh, in your, in your ministries, in your pastors, and they're just struggling, um, we get to sit and listen. So I'm happy to connect with all of those as well.

Don Ross 48:47

Yeah.

Matt Davis 48:47

I'd

Don Ross 48:48

Wonderful.

Matt Davis 48:48

a great work and I think that guys, we need to get together and. Uh, we need to create some safe places. There is something unique about dudes getting together. I like that you say, uh, getting naked. I feel like a lot of college days that that was a, that was a lot of it, but essentially we're, what does it look like to drop the fig leaf and just say,

Don Ross 49:06

Yeah.

Matt Davis 49:06

I am. Like

Don Ross 49:07

Yep.

Matt Davis 49:08

it looks like. And, and to be safe and loved in those spots, um, despite, um, is a pretty awesome thing.

Don Ross 49:16

Fantastic. Uh, one more time. What was the, the website where they can get all those resources?

Matt Davis 49:21

Ministry transitions.com/downloads and I think

Don Ross 49:27

Yeah.

Matt Davis 49:27

the resources tab. You can grab it there too,

Don Ross 49:29

Perfect. Okay. And we'll include that in the show notes as well. But yeah guys, uh, if any of that would be helpful, go check it out. Matt, thank you so much, man. This has been a real treat, uh, and a fantastic conversation. Really enjoy your company and appreciative of your wisdom and your ministry. I.

Matt Davis 49:43

You bet. Thanks man.