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What if “sober” wasn’t a label to hide—but a vibe to celebrate?
In this bold new chapter of the podcast, your hosts Susan Larkin and Ruby Williams unveil the rebrand from Feel Lit Alcohol Free to Sober and Lit—and the deeper why behind the name change. Is the word sober finally being reclaimed? What happens when you stop whispering your alcohol-free life and start owning it, proudly and publicly?

Ruby and Susan get real about the evolution of their own sober identities, unpack the tension between terms like “alcohol-free,” “recovery,” and “sober,” and explore how Gen Z, wellness culture, and sober celebrities are reshaping the conversation. If you’ve ever felt stuck in the language—or wondered if choosing not to drink can actually make you feel cool, clear, and confident—this episode is for you.

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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Are you feeding your freedom… or fueling your cravings?
Welcome back to the Sober and Lit Podcast! Today, we’re getting real about something most sobriety conversations skip: how what you eat can change how you drink.
Dr. Brooke Scheller—clinical nutritionist, founder of Functional Sobriety, and author of How to Eat to Change How You Drink—joins us for a fascinating, eye-opening conversation. She shares how nutrition helped her break free from her own drinking patterns, and how you can use food, supplements, and gut-healing strategies to support your alcohol-free journey.

Can protein reduce cravings? Why does gut health matter in sobriety? What if eating differently could actually make you feel lit again? Which is sexier, protein or fiber? 

Hosts Ruby and Susan dive into all this and more with Brooke, offering both science and soul to help you reclaim your health, energy, and clarity—one nourishing step at a time.
Let’s dig in.

Guest Bio:
Dr. Brooke Scheller is a Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, the founder of Functional Sobriety and the author of "How to Eat to Change How You Drink." Dr. Scheller has dedicated her career to revolutionizing the approach to alcohol recovery and holistic well-being. Inspired by her journey to sobriety in 2021, Dr. Scheller embarked on a mission to empower others to reclaim their lives through nutrition and functional medicine. 

Buy How to Eat to Change How you Drink

Connect with Dr. Brooke Scheller:

https://www.functionalsobriety.com
https://www.functionalsobriety.com https://drbrookescheller.substack.com/
https://www.instagram.com/drbrookescheller

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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Is “Drink Responsibly” Just a Marketing Scam?

What if the phrase “drink responsibly” isn’t about safety—but about shifting blame? In this eye-opening episode of the Sober & Lit Podcast, Ruby and Susan peel back the glossy layers of alcohol marketing to reveal what’s really behind that familiar tagline. Why does the alcohol industry promote moderation while knowing there’s no safe level of alcohol, according to the World Health Organization? Who benefits when drinking is glamorized and normalized in everything from college ads to Christmas dinner?

With Ruby’s 20 years inside the wine business, and both hosts’ experience helping women break free from drinking, this conversation dives into media manipulation, coping culture, and the myth of moderation. They explore how alcohol ads target us young, how “responsibility” gets weaponized, and how the sober curious movement is finally flipping the narrative.

If you're ready to challenge the status quo, rethink your relationship with drinking, and embrace an alcohol-free lifestyle that’s vibrant, joyful, and empowered—this one’s for you. 

P.S. You may have noticed we changed the name of our podcast to Sober & Lit. 
It’s still us — Ruby and Susan — showing up each week to share real talk for women exploring alcohol-free living in all its messy, magical, and empowering glory. The only thing that’s changing is the name. Everything else — the stories, the insights, the laughs, and the support — is staying exactly the same! 

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What if that nightly glass of Chardonnay wasn’t really relaxing you—it was slowly unraveling you? In this powerful episode of the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast, Ruby and Susan sit down with guest Allison Barber: former Division I gymnast, mom of three, Christian woman, and one-time Chardonnay queen who looked like she had it all together—until the cracks started showing.

Allison shares her raw, unfiltered story of using alcohol to cope with parenting, perfectionism, and pain she didn’t even know she was suppressing. From hiding her drinking to navigating a failing marriage, her journey is a masterclass in emotional courage, self-responsibility, and faith-led freedom. How do you reclaim yourself when wine feels like your only escape? Tune in to find out—and prepare to laugh, cry, and feel deeply inspired.

Allison shares powerful insights about becoming a role model for her daughters, the importance of emotional honesty, and why choosing yourself is the first step toward helping everyone around you.

Resources & Connect with Allison:
Instagram & Facebook: @insideoutfreedom
Website: theinsideoutfreedom.com

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast! Today, we’re kicking off our brand-new “Alcohol-Free Myth Busters” series by tackling a juicy one: “Do sober people judge drinkers?”

If you’ve ever wondered what your alcohol-free friend really thinks when you pour that second glass—or if you’ve felt awkward, defensive, or even misunderstood in social situations since going sober—this episode is for you.

Ruby and Susan get real about what it’s like to be the alcohol-free one at parties, family gatherings, and professional events. From wine gifts to backhanded comments, they share the surprising (and often tender) moments that come with living out loud in a world that still normalizes drinking.
But here’s the twist: instead of judgment, they’ve found compassion. Instead of isolation, connection. Could choosing sobriety actually make you more understanding?

Plus, in our “Feel Lit” segment, we share the simple summer rituals that are keeping us grounded and glowing—no booze required.

So…are sober people judging you? Or are we just quietly rooting for you to feel lit in your own way? Let’s find out. 

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What if giving up alcohol wasn’t about what you’re losing—but everything you’re about to gain?
In this episode of the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast, we’re joined by clinical psychologist Silvia Subirana, Unconscious Moderation's Head of Content Development, —who’s on a mission to make alcohol-free living more approachable, science-backed, and downright joyful. 

Silvia opens up about her own quiet decision to stop drinking, and how tuning into her body—not hitting “rock bottom”—was the game changer. Hosts Susan and Ruby dive into the surprising power of hypnotherapy, the neuroscience behind habit change, and how small mindset shifts can lead to massive breakthroughs.
They explore:

• How can hypnotherapy help you stop drinking?
• Why does alcohol-free living feel scary at first—and how do you move through it?
• Can rethinking “fun” unlock more connection than drinking ever did?
•  What if you didn’t have to do it alone?

If you’re exploring sobriety, feeling stuck, or just ready to understand the “why” behind your habits—this episode delivers a fresh, hopeful take on reclaiming your joy, your health, and freedom.

Guest Bio and Links:

Silvia Subirana, is a clinical psychologist and the Head of Content Development at Unconscious Moderation (former MyDry30), an innovative app designed to help users take control of their relationship with alcohol– but it's so much more than that! Unconscious Moderation helps people discover greater meaning, happiness, and fulfillment in their lives so they can become a healthier version of themselves. To help users achieve this, the app integrates tools like hypnotherapy, journaling, readings, and many other exercises to support lasting change.

Website: https://um.app/
Apple Store: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/drink-less-alcohol-with-um/id6471595788?mt=8
Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mydryjourney&referrer=af_tranid%3DPMHHQhpl6uyJz-rwDUJ3Qw%26c%3Dwebsite+home+page+button%

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

What if aging could feel expansive instead of limiting? What if breaking free from alcohol in midlife wasn’t a crisis—but a launchpad?
In this episode, Ruby Williams and Susan Larkin sit down with their guest the fiercely wise and funny Debi Talbert—a former flight attendant turned alcohol-free mindset and longevity coach—who’s helping women age with purpose, power, and pleasure.

Debi gets real about her own drinking story, the “invisible middle years,” and how we can flip outdated narratives on aging. She shares her signature tools—the Oxygen Mask Framework and Aging Flip Flight Plan—to help you rewire limiting beliefs, ditch shame, and finally feel lit from the inside out.

If you’ve ever felt stuck in habits you didn’t choose or wondered, "Is it too late to reinvent myself?"—this conversation is your permission slip to change everything.

Resources & Mentions:

• Debi Talbert’s Website & Coaching: agingflipped.com
• Connect on Instagram: @agingflipped
• Debi on LinkedIn: Debi Talbert
• Books Mentioned:
  • Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert
  • Brooke Shields is Not Allowed to Get Old by Brooke Shields
  • Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lembke

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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"What do I do when I’m not feeling lit after quitting drinking?"

In this refreshingly real episode of Feel Lit Alcohol Free, hosts Ruby and Susan tackle a question so many sober-curious and alcohol-free women secretly ask: “Why don’t I feel lit after quitting drinking?” You ditched the booze, expected fireworks… and instead? You're feeling flat, foggy, or just plain uninspired.
What gives?

Together, Ruby and Susan unpack this emotional hangover of sorts—the crash after the “pink cloud,” the disappointment when sobriety doesn’t fix everything, and the truth about healing in a world that still revolves around drinking. Through honest stories, client insights, and practical mindset tools, they’ll help you reframe the blah as a sacred part of the process—not a sign you’re doing it wrong.

What if this uncomfortable pause is actually where the magic starts?
If you’ve ever wondered when the sparkle returns—or how to reignite it—this episode is your permission slip to slow down, get curious, and reclaim joy on your own terms. Let’s get into it. 

Resources & Links

• Song Recommendation: Kinder by Copper Wimmin (find the link in our Facebook group!)

Check out our new Feel It 4 Life group — for those in the “now what?” phase after quitting drinking. We focus on authentic friendship, self-compassion, purpose, and building a life you love. 

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast! In this episode, hosts Coach Susan and Coach Ruby are thrilled to sit down with Jolene Park, a sought-after speaker, functional nutritionist, and creator of the revolutionary NOURISH Method ™ for alcohol-free living. Jolene is perhaps best known for her groundbreaking TED Talk, which introduced the concept of “gray area drinking”—the space between occasional drinking and end-stage alcohol dependency. With more than 350,000 views, her talk has become a cornerstone for those who don’t identify as having hit “rock bottom,” yet know their relationship with alcohol isn’t serving them. 

Jolene defines clearly what gray area drinking is and isn't and introduces her NOURISH Method ™, a physiology-first approach to healing that replaces guilt and deprivation with real, replenishing tools. From morning sunlight to magnesium, connection to curiosity—this isn’t about white-knuckling. It’s about resources.

Have you ever asked, "Is my drinking really a problem?" Or wondered why quitting feels so hard—even when you want to? This episode is your permission slip to get curious, not judgmental—and finally understand why alcohol might be numbing what actually needs care.

Episode Links & Resources:
Jolene Park’s TED Talk and Website: https://grayareadrinkers.com

Follow Jolene on Instagram: @jolene_park  Substack: https://substack.com/@jolenepark
Find a Gray Area Drinking Coach: https://grayareadrinkers.com/find-a-coach/

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What happens when one of New York’s top bartenders goes sober—and gets even better at his craft?
In this episode of Feel Lit Alcohol Free, Ruby and Susan sit down with award-winning bartender Chris Cardone, who’s flipping the script on what it means to thrive behind the bar—without drinking a drop. From winning the Diageo World Class US Bartender of the Year after going sober, to facing stigma in an industry where alcohol is king, Chris shares the raw truth about sobriety, success, and staying fully present in high-pressure spaces.

We dive into:

• What it’s really like to be a sober bartender
• How Chris is leading a movement to make bars more inclusive for alcohol-free guests
• Why your sobriety can actually elevate your creativity and connection (yes, even in the hospitality world!)

If you’ve ever wondered how to navigate social settings without alcohol, or you’re curious about how the drinking culture is evolving, this one’s a must-listen. Hit play and find out how living alcohol-free is no longer the exception—it’s the upgrade.

Connect with Chris Cardone:

• Continuous Beverage Solutions: Helping the hospitality world embrace alcohol-free inclusivity www.ContinuousBev.com
• Instagram: @continuousbev
• Email: Chris@continuousbev.com

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What happens when you stop drinking—but the rest of your world doesn’t? In this episode of Feel Lit Alcohol Free, we’re diving into the heart-pounding moment every sober-curious soul eventually faces: telling friends and family, “I don’t drink anymore.”
Coaches (and co-hosts) Ruby Williams and Susan Larkin get real about the fears, awkwardness, and surprising freedom that comes with “coming out AF.” From dodging wine club gifts to crafting your alcohol-free elevator pitch, they’ll share the mindset shifts, boundary-setting tools, and hilarious stories that can turn dread into empowerment.
💭 How much do you share—and with whom?
💬 What if they react weirdly?
💡 Can this actually deepen your relationships?
Whether you’re brand new to alcohol-free living or quietly plotting your exit from wine culture, this episode offers the script, the courage, and the laughs you need to start owning your choice—on your terms. 

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What if the first step to drinking less wasn’t quitting—but sitting still? In this episode of Feel Lit Alcohol Free, we’re joined by Rory Kinsella, a former hard-drinking musician turned Vedic meditation teacher and sober coach. Rory shares how meditation helped him effortlessly shift away from alcohol—before he even planned to quit.
From backstage hangovers to inner stillness, Rory’s story reveals how stress relief, not willpower, changed everything. We explore the power of Vedic meditation, why “clearing your mind” is a myth, and how his “Wise Monkey Way” helps quiet the chaos within.
Ready to trade the wine for something way more powerful? Let’s dive into the calm that could change your cravings.

• Visit Wise Monkey Way to learn about Rory Kinsella’s meditation programs and access a free introductory lesson.
• Follow Rory Kinsella on social media for updates and inspiration: @rorykinsellameditation

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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"Help! I've been invited to a bachelorette party in Wine Country, and I'm not drinking. What should I do?" Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast! In this episode, hosts Susan Larkin and Ruby Williams are joined by special guest Martha Wright—known for of alcohol-free living in Paris. Martha, a former wine industry veteran turned mindful drinking coach, brings her wealth of experience to tackle this listener question.
Together, Ruby, Susan, and Martha dive deep into the challenges and opportunities of attending social events—like bachelorette parties—where alcohol is typically front and center. They serve up practical tips for making the most out of the experience, from researching nonalcoholic options and finding joy in the gorgeous scenery, to reframing your mindset and creating engaging group activities that don't revolve around drinking. Martha shares her personal insights, stories from her own journey, and creative ways to stay connected, playful, and fully present at celebrations—without feeling left out.

Whether you're planning to join a wine country weekend, navigate a wedding, or just want to show up with intention and confidence at any event, this episode is packed with actionable advice and uplifting encouragement to help you feel lit—alcohol free! Grab your favorite NA beverage and listen in for ideas on honoring the true spirit of gatherings, forging true connections, and having even more fun without the booze.

About Martha Wright:
Martha is a veteran of the wine industry turned mindful drinking coach, now inspiring others to live alcohol free with joy. She splits her time between Paris, Portland, and New Orleans, always on the hunt for the best street markets and NA venues.
Follow Martha on Instagram: @themakealcoholsmallcoach
https://www.clearpowercoaching.com/

References:
Martha’s Sobriety Story & Holiday Tips – Episode 48
NA wine and mocktail spots in Napa/Sonoma: Deerfield Ranch Winery offers H2O sparkling!

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What if the real magic isn’t just in quitting drinking—but in everything that comes after?

Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast! In this episode your hosts and alcohol freedom coaches Ruby Williams and Susan Larkin get real about what happens after you put down the glass.
From unexpected emotions to surprising wins, they’re sharing the raw, beautiful, and sometimes messy truth about what it really looks like to grow, evolve, and rediscover yourself alcohol-free.

• What do you do when the pink cloud fades?
• How do you keep going when no one else around you is on the same path?
• And—most importantly—where does the joy actually come from?

Ruby and Susan also reveal their brand-new program, Feel Lit 4 Life, created to help you build lasting freedom and find your people on this empowering journey.

If you're tired of the all-or-nothing narratives then get ready for honest, hopeful conversations about what it means to feel fully alive without alcohol—this episode is for you.

Episode at a Glance:
00:38 - Intro: From quick fix to lifelong growth 
02:17 - Why the journey matters 
02:35 - Q1: What was most surprising? 
05:38 - Q2: What was most challenging? 
11:44 - Q3: Where did you feel affirmed? 
15:51 - Q4: What doubts did you have? 
21:33 - Q5: What did you notice most? 
28:49 - Q6: What made it easier? 
32:31 - Final thoughts: Joy, growth, and cycles 
35:45 - How we feel lit now 

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

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What happens when “just one glass” turns into a deadly diagnosis?

In this raw and riveting episode of Feel Lit Alcohol Free, Ruby Williams and Susan Larkin sit down with Karla Adkins, co-founder of Zero Proof Life and author of She Came Tumbling Down. Karla was a young professional when she was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver at just 36—a wake-up call that nearly came too late!

Why Karla wrote her riveting book: "I can't be silent anymore. I have to share my story. I want people to know what can happen, the truth of this dangerous game that a lot of people are playing."

We dive deep into:
✅ The toxic culture of pandemic drinking and “mommy wine” humor
✅ Why liver disease is rising rapidly in women ages 25–34
✅ What it really takes to heal—physically, emotionally, and spiritually
✅ How Karla went from silent shame to powerful sobriety advocate

This conversation is urgent, inspiring, and unforgettable. Let’s get into it.

Read Karla's compelling story And She Came Tumbling Down : Breaking the Bonds of Alcohol and Creating a Life of Freedom 
Connect with Karla: Karlaadkins.com  @thezeroprooflife @karlakadkins

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast! In this episode, we're diving deep into one of the most common beliefs we hear from clients: “I deserve a drink.” Sound familiar?

Join your hosts and alcohol freedom coaches, Ruby and Susan, as we unpack the cultural conditioning behind using alcohol as a reward—and why it's time to rethink that narrative. Why have we been taught that wine is the prize for surviving the day? And what if the real reward isn’t in a glass, but in the way we feel?

We're challenging the "work hard, wine hard" mindset and offering fresh, joyful alternatives to truly nourish yourself. From micro-moments of pleasure to playful rituals that light you up (without the hangover), you’ll walk away with tools, perspective shifts, and a whole lot of inspiration.

Ready to redefine what reward actually feels like? Let’s get lit—alcohol free.

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

What if the best thing you ever drank didn’t have alcohol in it?

In this episode, Susan and Ruby sit down with the amazing Deb Podlager—aka Mocktail Mom—who went from drinking Chardonnay every weekend, to sipping spicy, spirit-free margaritas and leading a whole new movement.

Deb shares how divorce, breast cancer, parenting through trauma, and pandemic burnout pushed her closer to the bottle... until she hit a moment of truth before turning 50.
But instead of spiraling, she said “What if I just… stopped?”
And what happened next? It sparkled.
We’ll dive into:
💥 Why alcohol slowly creeps in without us noticing
💥 How to rewire your rituals with mocktails that actually taste good
💥 Why sobriety isn’t boring—it’s liberating

What does it take to break up with booze... and fall in love with your life again?
Let’s find out!

00:00 Mocktail Mom's Alcohol-Free Journey
05:15 Life Changes and Emotional Impact
06:49 Coping with Divorce and Illness
11:52 Rediscovering Fun Without Alcohol
15:44 First Nonalcoholic Wine Experience
16:06 Discovering Non-Alcoholic Cocktail Options
20:40 Mocktail Trials and Tribulations
23:37 Low-Sugar Nautical Mocktail Recipe
25:53 Nonalcoholic Mint Julep Recipe
29:33 Beginner Bar Essentials
34:54 Global Mocktail Summit Highlights
38:07 How Deb Feels “Lit” Alcohol-Free

Where to find out more about Mocktail Mom:
MocktailMom.com   @mocktail.mom  https://www.facebook.com/MocktailMom
Buy the book: The Happiest Hour 

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

What happens when you take alcohol out of dating, relationships, and major life transitions? Does connection get harder—or better?

In this episode of Feel Lit Alcohol Free, Ruby and Susan sit down with Jeanette Levitt, a certified coach who helps midlife women navigate drinking, divorce, and dating—without losing themselves in the process.

Jeanette gets real about the unexpected challenges (and surprising joys!) of dating without alcohol, how sobriety brings next-level clarity in relationships, and why choosing yourself is the most powerful move you can make.

If you've ever wondered “Will I ever feel confident on a date without a drink?” or “How do I build real, deep connections alcohol-free?”—this episode is for you.

Get ready for game-changing insights, real talk, and practical tips that might just redefine the way you approach love, healing, and self-discovery. Let’s dive in!

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

Welcome back to Feel Lit Alcohol Free! In this episode we’re tackling a topic that’s raw, real, and rarely talked about—loneliness.

Did you ever pour a drink just to fill the silence?  You are not alone. Loneliness is one of the most common reasons we hear that people have fallen into drinking habits that no longer serve them. 

Susan and Ruby dive into why major life shifts like divorce, empty nesting, or losing a loved one often leave us searching for connection in all the wrong places.
But here’s the game-changer: Loneliness doesn’t have to be the end of connection—it can be the beginning of something incredible.

Does being alcohol-free sometimes make you feel like an outsider? What if loneliness isn’t the problem—but the key to something bigger?

We’re sharing practical strategies to turn isolation into empowerment, build real friendships, and create a life that’s not just alcohol-free—but vibrant, fulfilling, and truly connected.

Ready to shift your perspective and step into deeper, more meaningful relationships? Let’s dive in!

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

In this new episode, Hosts Susan Larkin and Ruby Williams are thrilled to have the remarkable Peggi Cooney—author, speaker, and sobriety advocate. Peggi's transformation from wine lover to alcohol-free warrior is nothing short of inspiring.
Dive deep with us as Peggi reveals the life-changing ultimatum from her daughter that set her on the path to sobriety, and then to write her inspirational memoir, This Side of Alcohol. With her extensive background in child welfare and adult protective services, Peggi offers invaluable insights on managing stress in helping professions and highlights the crucial role of connection in recovery.

Curious about how adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) shape alcohol use? Want to know more about Peggi's book and the exciting Zero Proof Experience events? Join us for an engaging conversation that explores Peggi's journey, her impact on the sober community, and the transformative power of living alcohol-free.

Attend the next Sober in the City Event in Scottsdale AZ!  Peggi will be there and give you a big hug. Host, Susan Larkin will also be attending! It's an amazing experience!
Purchase Peggi's book, This Side of Alcohol

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast! In this episode, your hosts, Susan and Ruby, dive deep into the complex relationship between alcohol and happiness. Ruby opens up with a question many of us have pondered: "Does alcohol really make us happy?" Sharing personal experiences and client stories, Ruby and Susan discuss the deceptive illusion of happiness that alcohol provides. They explore how societal beliefs and personal experiences have conditioned us to associate alcohol with fun and happiness. However, as they unveil, the science behind alcohol tells a different story. From the chemical effects of alcohol on our brain to the way it can overshadow genuine emotions like joy, gratitude, and serenity, this episode encourages listeners to challenge ingrained beliefs and consider redefining what happiness truly means. 

Whether you're already on an alcohol-free journey or simply curious about alternative paths to joy, this conversation is packed with insights to help you feel healthier, freer, and more in control of your life. So get ready to explore the pursuit of true happiness, alcohol-free.

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

In this compelling episode of the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast, Ruby and Susan are joined by the inspiring Rose Clark, a courageous mother, wife, and law enforcement officer who shares her riveting journey of overcoming grief and addiction. Having experienced profound loss with the tragic passing of her daughter Catherine, Rose speaks candidly about the struggles of navigating life after such a devastating event and how alcohol initially became her crutch. 

Rose’s path to sobriety was ignited through self-reflection and a plea for guidance from her daughter. Her transformative journey led her to start a local grief group called Collateral Beauty and become an advocate for overdose awareness. Tune in as Rose discusses the importance of self-compassion, the pivotal role her daughter continues to play in her life, and her commitment to sharing hope and healing with others experiencing similar challenges. 

Discover the immense strength she found in sobriety and how she channels her energy into supporting others, creating community, and nurturing a life filled with gratitude and purpose.

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

Welcome to Feel Lit Alcohol Free, your go-to podcast for navigating the empowering journey of living alcohol-free. We’re Coaches Ruby Williams and Coach Susan Larkin; today we’re tackling a potent emotion that many encounter on this path—anger.

A listener's question sparks a rich discussion: How can we process and understand the raw feelings that inevitably resurface in the absence of alcohol? Ruby and Susan explore how anger can mask deeper feelings like fear, embarrassment, or shame. Together, we'll peel back the layers of this fiery emotion, revealing its hidden connections to our past and its role in our present.

We'll share personal stories, uncover the significance of setting boundaries, and offer practical, transformative strategies to channel anger constructively. How can we allow, process, and release anger in ways that empower us rather than holding us back?

Whether you're on an alcohol-free journey or curious about emotional wellbeing, tune in to discover how embracing our emotions can lead to a healthier, more vibrant life. Ready to dive in and feel truly lit? Let’s get started!

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

In this episode of the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast, Ruby and Susan are thrilled to welcome Todd Kinney, a distinguished attorney and acclaimed author from Omaha, Nebraska. 

Todd opens up about the internal conflicts and societal pressures he faced before giving up alcohol. He reflects on the positive impacts sobriety has had on his life, especially in his role as a father.  With his memoir, "I Didn't Believe It Either: One Dad's Discovery That Everything is Better Without Alcohol," Todd offers invaluable insights into the challenges and rewards of living an alcohol-free life. 

Join us as Todd discusses how sobriety has enhanced his personal and professional life, debunking myths and inspiring listeners to consider a life free from alcohol. 

Connect with Todd: tkinney111@gmail.com

His book: I Didn't Believe It Either: One Dad's Discovery That Everything is Better Without Alcohol

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Send us a text

Welcome back to another invigorating episode of the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast! This episode answers a listener's question:  "There's so much talk about having a morning routine, I'm struggling with this. Why is a morning routine so important?"

Remember the days when "morning routine" just meant crawling out of bed to guzzle coffee & dash to work? Today, on the pod we are diving into the transformative power of the morning routine. Join Ruby and Susan as they explore the intricacies of starting your day with intention and how it can set the tone for an alcohol-free lifestyle. Whether you're seeking to reconnect with your body and mind or experimenting with new rituals that align with your personal goals, our hosts provide insights and tips that cater to different lifestyles and needs. From simple habits like expressing gratitude upon waking to more structured routines involving meditation and exercise, this episode is packed with ideas to inspire your own morning magic.  Your morning can be a pillar of strength and serenity—discover how it might just be the key to feeling lit, inside and out. Tune in and feel inspired to craft a morning that works for you!

Don't forget to follow and subscribe and leave a review! It helps to get the word out that living sober is lit!

Listeners have said that our podcast has helped them get alcohol free! So we created Feel Lit 21. Embrace 21 days without alcohol that feels lit!
Click here to find out more: https://feellitpodcast.com/FeelLit21

Join our private community!

Connect with the Podcast Hosts:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.