The Unsolved Murder of Leon Laurales Part 4: The Players, The Evidence, & What's Next

Join us in this gripping episode of "Box in the Basement," where we delve into the shadows of unsolved murders and the relentless quest for justice. Hosted by Arlene, a steadfast advocate in the true crime community, and joined by her life partner and co-host, Leah, this episode unveils startling revelations and unexplored angles in the heart-wrenching case of Leon Loreles.

Warning: This episode contains detailed discussions of violence and may not be suitable for all listeners.

Embark on a journey through the intricate web of true crime investigations, where the past and present collide. Arlene shares her personal connection to Leon's story, fueled by an unwavering dedication to shedding light on his unsolved murder. Leah brings her unique perspective to the table, drawing on her experiences growing up in proximity to one of the most notorious figures in true crime history.

This episode also welcomes Bree, the tenacious producer behind "Box in the Basement," who shares her insights and family background in law enforcement, adding depth to our exploration of these chilling cases.

Dive deep into the complexities of Leon's case as we uncover new evidence, including crime scene photos and a suspect list that raises more questions than answers. Discover the shocking parallels between Leon's murder and another tragic case in Brownwood, Texas, as we strive to connect the dots in a community marked by its conservative, often closed-off nature.

In this episode, we not only investigate the chilling details of these crimes but also reflect on the broader implications of unsolved murders in Texas. Join us in naming the unnamed, as we aim to bring closure to the thousands of families still waiting for answers.

Your participation can make a difference. Follow our journey, share tips, and contribute to the ongoing fight for justice. Tune in to "Box in the Basement" and become part of a community dedicated to uncovering the truth and honoring the memories of those lost to unsolved crimes.

Subscribe, like, and share to support our mission. Together, we can illuminate the darkness and bring hope to the unheard.

Show Notes:
William Deer Poster Board 1
Crime Scene Photo 1
Leon Laurales Autopsy Report 

Support Box in the Basement Victims

• Leon Laurales: Website & GoFundMe
• Amanda Goodman: Justice for Sissy Facebook Page
• Jennifer Sue Delgado Memorial Foundation

Transcript

Bree: 0:00

Please be advised this episode contains detailed discussions of violence and may not be suitable for all listeners

Arlene: 0:07

Hi guys, I'm Arlene, your host, and welcome to the Box in the Basement podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. Today we have Leah joining us. Leah is my life partner in everything. She has been with me for the last 13 years, has been my shoulder to cry on, she has wiped away many of my tears, and lets me vent to her whenever I need to.

0:31

She has supported me 100 percent in this fight for justice for Leon. She is my rock and has agreed to go on this new journey with me. Leah, would you like to tell us about how you became interested in true crime and what made you want to join me in this journey? Hello, everyone. I'm Leah, and I'll be joining Arlene on this unsolved crime journey here at Box in the Basement. Arlene has told her story about her uncle Leon Loreles and how that sparked her interest in both true crime and getting justice for Leon and for other families waiting for answer. My story is a little different. But my lovely co host and our producer convinced me that I should tell you all why I'm here and why I have such an interest in the true crime genre. There are two main reasons. The first one will probably make you say, Oh damn. Because that's the reaction I usually get. The second reason involves my hilarious father and his fantastic storytelling ability. I was born and raised in Akron, Ohio, in the 1980s and 1990s, and I attended a small church right on the border of Bath Township and Akron proper. Hardcore true crime fans are probably already making the connection here, but for everyone else, this was the same church attended by Lionel Dahmer, Jeffrey Dahmer's father. I turned 11 years old in the summer of 1991 when Dahmer's 13 year reign of terror finally ended, and I can clearly remember the Sunday service after he was arrested. Lionel Dahmer, who I always knew as a kind, quiet man and dear friend and tennis partner to my great uncle, was mobbed with parishioners after the service, offering prayers and condolences. I asked my mother why everyone was being so kind to Mr. Dahmer, and she told my brother and me, he's three years younger than I am, everything she knew about the case. She didn't sugarcoat it. I remember being horrified and angry. It was honestly a turning point in my life that reshaped my worldview, but that's another conversation entirely. That was the beginning of my interest in the worst, darkest side of humanity. The other reason I got interested in true crime is the same reason I'm a storyteller now. My dad. I grew up on a dead end street hearing the story of an unsolved murder that happened at the end of that street in Akron, Ohio, before I was born. Though we're mostly interested in unsolved Texas crimes here at Box in the Basement, we'll absolutely cover that case in the future, the murder of Leslie Ann Barker in 1978. My dad is a very animated storyteller and he really gets into it. From the beginning he was frustrated and angry that this case wasn't solved and he never minced words about how he thought investigators mishandled it from jump. He's got a steel trap memory and remembers names, dates, times, and lots of details about the case. He'll be our guest on that episode so I won't spoil it too much. In any case, his interest in that case and the way he tells the story is a major reason I started watching the old school true crime shows and later listened to true crime podcasts. Today we also have Bree, our Box in the Basement podcast producer, joining us. Bree and I have worked together for the last couple of years on Leon's case. She is part of my family now. She has been with me through some of the struggles and heartaches dealing with Leon's case. I have such a deep appreciation for her. She is fierce, highly intelligent, compassionate, funny, and a boss. And I'm extremely happy to have her as our producer. Hi, Bree. Would you like to tell us a bit about yourself? I actually started this journey with the Uncovered website. So I was also very interested in true crime. Um, I was not as affected by true crime as both Arlene and Leah. However, I do come from a very long line of law enforcement. So a lot of my family has always been involved in true crime. And I started getting interested in true crime, like Leah with Jeffrey Dahmer, when I was also 11 years old and my dad had bought a book about him and I picked it up and read it. So I think for our generation. There was a very long legacy of serial killings from the 1970s, all the way to the nineties. And I think a lot of us were affected by that when we lived through it. And so as I got older, we came here to the uncovered website. I was introduced to Arlene through one of the founders of the site, and that's how I was. Involved in Leon's case and I wanted to do something a little bit more involved than just sit and be a passive observer of true crime. I wanted to be active and do something about it after watching so many years of it. And so I challenge any of our audience members who are here listening with us today after our episode to get involved because you too can make a difference and be part of someone's. Journey for justice, and I am just happy to be here with Arlene and Leah today. And so I throw it back to you, Arlene, to get back into the case. Thank you, Bree. So today I want to talk about some of the findings we have uncovered on Leon's case in the last couple of years. I've said on the other podcast that the PI we hired in 1996 didn't hand over any of the information he found out about Leon's murder. I found out this summer that that was not accurate. My uncle George was frustrated with the PI's lack of cooperation. And hired an attorney to get what information he could. My uncle ended up getting his hands on some of William Deere's research, including a suspect list, some background information. And a significant number of crime scene photos. They are on big white poster boards, and you can definitely tell it was done in the 90s. Before we get into the evidence in Leon's case, it's important to talk a little about Brownwood itself. Leah's here to tell us about that. So Arlene covered it to some extent in the first three episodes, but we're going to set the scene here. A little history and a little about the zeitgeist, if you will. Brownwood is a town of around 19, 000 people that is almost in the geographical center of Texas, about 180 miles southwest of Dallas and 140 miles northwest of Austin. Not quite the hill country and not quite the panhandle plains. It's an old farming and ranching settlement that dates back to the mid 19th century, but we won't bore you too much with the deep historical details here. By the early 1900s, cotton had taken over the town's economy, and two colleges had opened their doors to the community. The population of Brownwood continued to grow as the oil industry boomed, and World War II led the Army to build a training camp in the town, one that would eventually become the largest such facility in the state of Texas. It's estimated that by the mid 1940s, the population of Brownwood ballooned as militaries, families, and civilians followed behind, searching for jobs and business opportunities. So when, when Camp Bowie, as the training facility was called, closed in 1946 and a severe drought ensued, Brownwood faded and shrank. Today, Brownwood sits at the crossroads of U. S. Highways 67, 84, 183, and 377, and by the time Leon Laurelis was murdered in 1996, the city was a manufacturing hub as 3M and Kohler called the city home. Brownwood is a small town. It's a conservative, religious town, with the largest Christian denomination being Baptist. Brownwood, like many smaller towns in Texas, has a history steeped in bigotry, corruption, and violence that permeates the population's hierarchy at all levels. You can find pictures from a KKK rally in Brownwood just four years before Leon's murder. The National Director of the Arkansas based Knights of the Ku Klux Klan himself can be seen bloviating in public underneath the Confederate battle flag. Howard Payne University was recently named one of the worst, most unsafe campuses for LGBTQ plus students in the country. It has an exemption to Title IX, which allows it to openly discriminate against people based on sexual orientation and gender identity, among other things, and still receive federal funding. Just last year, in 2022, a Texas filmmaker planned to do a Pride film festival in Brownwood, and he and other involved parties received so much pushback, the event was cancelled. Public servants were overheard by the event's organizers openly talking about, quote unquote, correcting gay people, which is a not very thinly veiled threat, in my opinion. LGBTQ plus people have been subjected to a lot of quote unquote correcting over the years, like being murdered, beaten, sexually assaulted, imprisoned, and being discriminated against. What I'm saying here is that while some things have changed and gotten better for non white and LGBTQ plus people, there still exists an undercurrent of seething hatred. And if it's still prominent enough to bully people into silence in 2022, then imagine how much worse it was in 1996 when Leon's murder happened. So now let's talk about some of those photos that William Deere handed over. On these crime scene photos, you can see not a single person is wearing protective gear. I've done my research, and in 1996, it was protocol to wear protective gear. Also, you can see that there is a civilian on both sides of the fence. Was he the owner? Why was he there? It seems like he's holding a metal detector, but we're not quite sure why he was there, and he was not wearing protective gear either. Anyone have thoughts on that? So, there has been some speculation, just to kind of set these crime scene photos, and we'll, we'll definitely put them in the show notes for you. The crime scene photos, there are deputies standing around, the Texas Ranger who was working the case at the time is standing there as well, and there is this unknown civilian. We don't. We're not really sure. We've kind of had some conflicting information given to us by people who were in the town at the time as to who this person might be. So yes, the question stands is why was he allowed so close to the crime scene if he was not an investigator? And why would they publish? Why would they allow themselves to be photographed breaking crime scene protocol at the time? It doesn't spe It doesn't speak very highly of law enforcement and their respect for protocol. I'd also like to point out at this time in these photos, you can see several deputies, the Texas Ranger Bobby Grubbs, and also the sheriff. Now, this is where I'd like to remind you that the sheriff recused himself at the moment this crime happened. So, why was he there, not following protocol again? So yeah, we, we've looked into this too, and at the time, I think it still stands that way that if the sheriff recuses himself from an investigation or a case, that means that nobody from the sheriff's department can participate in the investigation. So if he had already, Phil Donahue, who was the uh, sheriff's He was a sheriff at the time. If he had recused himself from the case, why are he and a handful of deputies standing at the crime scene, once again, breaking protocol, it makes sense for the Texas Ranger to be there, but it does raise the question of why, why was everybody else at the crime scene if they technically weren't supposed to be there? Yes. These are some questions that we'd really like to get the answers to, hopefully we will one day. If it's something that we're not understanding, like they're allowed to, you know, consult on the case when they're called in, in an informal manner, I, I'm not sure. These are questions we don't have the answers to as far as, you know, protocol and the actual nuts and bolts of the law, but it does raise some good questions. Brady, you want to add anything? I think what I would just add is it goes back to the question of, you know, why did build on who recuse himself? At what point did he recuse himself? Because that is uncertain in this timeline. And we know that the sheriff's office stayed involved. For a pretty long time, so it does beg the question to why and when. Some of the other photos that are on these poster boards are of, uh, Leon's car, which we, we honestly didn't know that these photos existed until this summer. Um, we were under the impression that the car was destroyed shortly after the crime took place and that no photos or evidence were taken. It's. Nice to know that we were incorrect in that assumption. We do have a number of photos of the burned out Hulk of Leon's Thunderbird. So we can't really gather a lot of information from those photos. Cause there's not really a whole lot of context. It is interesting that we were led to believe one thing and did find out that the car was kept for at least a little while. And the private investigator was able to take some pretty good photos. Yeah, like Leah said, the photos don't really give us much information because the car was totally burned. There wasn't much of it left, and the angles are not ideal for gathering information, such as I've always questioned if Leon's seat was in the place that he always kept it or was in a different position. And you can't tell that by these photos. Because he was a pretty big guy. So he, and Arlene always said that he would, he'd crank the seat all the way back and recline it. It's really difficult to tell from the pictures if that's the case or if a shorter guy, smaller guy drove his car out to the murder scene, would they have adjusted the seat and was the seat adjusted? You just can't tell from the pictures. So the other poster board has a suspect list with five names on it. Three of them we already knew about, but there is still a couple that we're not sure how they tie into Leon's case. So we're looking into that. It was kind of validating to know that some of the people that we kind of had suspected or figured into the equation somehow and, you know, information that we've gotten from some of Leon's friends and coworkers that William Deere was also on that team. path. He was also looking at those angles. So now that we've kind of set the scene, let's introduce a few of the major players in Leon's case. Two major players in Leon's case. The first and most prominent figure in the investigation, in our opinion, is the Brown County Sheriff at the time, Bill Donahue. Donahue had been in law enforcement for almost 40 years by the time of Leon's murder in 1996. He did a stint in the Marines. Where he was known as Wild Bill. His comrades paint him as a man's man who embraced the Texas zeitgeist and raised hell in Tokyo after World War II. He joined the Brownwood Police Department in 1955, eventually serving five terms as police chief. He did a short stint in auto sales and juvenile probation, but the important thing is that he returned to law enforcement in 1979 and was appointed chief deputy sheriff in the Brown County Sheriff's Department in 1980. He was first elected sheriff in 1985 and served five full terms, resigning, so far as we can tell, during his sixth term, just a few months after Leon's death. There's honestly not much information out there on Donahue, which is why we're making some assumptions here. The more we've pushed Leon's story, the more podcasts Arlene has been on. The fewer and fewer articles and pieces of information we can seem to find on the internet. It's honestly been weird and I've never seen anything like this. I don't know if it's just media outlets putting stuff behind a paywall, or if there's something shadier going on. But it is interesting that there are not as many stories out there now on Bill Donahue as there were even six months ago. Next up is Bobby Grubbs, who was the Texas Ranger assigned to Leon's case almost immediately after the fact. If you remember in a previous episode, we mentioned that Sheriff Donahue recused himself from the investigation, meaning the Texas Rangers had jurisdiction. The Ranger assigned to Brown County at the time was Bobby Grubbs. He was literally the lone Ranger assigned to that area. Grubbs didn't graduate from high school, instead joining the Navy before starting his law enforcement career in the State Highway Patrol, and then later moving to the Midland Rangers office. Grubbs was old school, relying more on shoe leather and social networks, and I mean that in the traditional sense, rather than on technology. While that has its advantages, it also created some difficulties in Leon's case, and in other cases as well. We will cover another unsolved homicide Grubbs worked in a future episode, the murder of 13 year old Amanda Goodman, whose case shares many striking similarities to Leon's. At one point, Grubbs showed Arlene's Uncle George his quote unquote file on Leon, and it consisted of a few sticky notes and nothing else. That always rubbed George the wrong way, and led him to lose faith in the system completely. Grubbs continued as a ranger for nine years after Leon's death, and was eventually elected Brown County Sheriff himself. He was a fairly popular and well liked sheriff, from what I can tell, and he said in a number of interviews that Leon's case haunted him. Whether that was true or if it's just something you say to get re elected, we can't say for sure. Bobby Grubbs served two full terms and died during his third term in 2015. Let's take a look at the day of the murder slash timeline of events and the associated evidence. So I had the privilege of interviewing Leon's brother and roommate with an uncovered volunteer, Ariana. And at the time of the murder, George was living with Leon and working at 3M. George is technically our second witness of the day. As you can recall from Arlene's previous episode, she actually saw him earlier in the Walmart. Well, she saw his car, but she didn't see him. George is a quiet, humble, intelligent man. He's now married with kids in his seventies, but at the time of the murder, he was single working at 3am and Leon was working very long nights while George worked during the day. They rarely saw each other, but around dinner time. Leon and George would often have dinner before Leon would go to work. George stated that he remembers Leon having two brothers visiting the day of the murder and serving them hamburgers for dinner. These brothers supposedly needed a bank account for something. We don't know what, and Leon did them a favor and opened one up. I think they may have been unable to open one for some reason or the other. Leon was always known as a helper type. Arlene, do you want to tell us a little bit more about How Leon was during this period of his life. Well, he's always been that person to help anyone, but I have had coworkers and friends tell me that he was always helping them, lending them money, lending his debit cards, his credit cards, if they needed to purchase something or he would purchase items for them, he was always just helping people. I don't think he ever said no. In fact, investigators saw that Leon's credit card was still being used after his death and it turned out someone he had loaned it to was still using it. Is that correct? Yes. The day after his death, someone went and used his bails card. So Leon was just known for being incredibly generous and doing favors for people. So again, these people came over, they served them food because that's the kind of generosity that Leon and George would have at the time. And so then Leon would have gotten ready for work. I've heard that he loved to wear clean, perfectly white shoes and t shirts and he would go to Kroger's. And it was about a 15 minute drive. He would have gone around what? 1130 because he liked to be at work early. He usually liked to arrive at work 15 minutes early so that he could discuss his day and the day with some of the other workers. Now there is one witness that is supposedly the last person to have seen Leon according to the poster boards. Leah, who was that name and who is this person? Yes, so William Deere, he got some information, and again, we don't have access to his notes, so we're not really sure the context here, but this man was named Lanny Dorset, and according to William Deere, he was the last person, or one of the last people seen with Leon right before he died. Again, we're not sure when in the day this happened, but that is the name and the information that we have. I would assume it was sometime between dinner around 6 or 7 at George's house and then 10 or around. It's got to be around 1130. So somewhere in that time period. We still have to investigate who this person is and why he would have been the last person to see Leon. He would have gone to the parking lot around 1145 and that is when a Kroger employee. Supposedly thought she saw him next to another car. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Arlene since you discussed it in your last episode. Yes, on my last episode, I mentioned the coworker looked out the window and saw Leon. Parked in the parking lot, but not in his usual spot because there was another vehicle there. So Leon had parked next to that vehicle. She does not remember what the other car looked like. It was something that at the time she didn't really think too much about it. But the next time she looked out the window, both vehicles were gone. And for all of our listeners, we will be interviewing this witness and we will have her interview on an upcoming episode with other interviews. As we continue to update you guys with anything that we get from this case or any others that we investigate. So, let's discuss what. Must have happened after the witness saw Leon Ariana and I drove the route that Leon and the perpetrators would have taken that night and it does take anywhere between 12 and 15 minutes, depending on light stops and how fast you drive once you get to the location, it is. It's a gun range out in the middle of nowhere. It's outside of town. It's somewhere near a hospital. So the hospital is kind of out of town and the gun range is in between. When you get there, you go down a slope. So it's not like it's up at the level of the road. You actually go down and that road will take you down to a railroad track. That railroad track is known for partying. That's where a lot of people would like to go drink, do drugs. You know, do whatever they do near the railroad tracks. They also like to dump trash there. So if you look at the pictures that we have of 1996 and of today, you'll still see the same toilet thrown across over a fence just sitting there. So you'll see tons of trash sinks. broken glass, old pieces of furniture, all being dumped at this site. So this, this location is known for three things, shooting guns, dumping trash and partying. Once the perpetrators and Leon arrived, They forced me on out of the car and made him kneel with his head against the fence and his right hand would have been up against his forehead. The perpetrators or perpetrators would have put the gun to the back of his head. Likely they were a right handed right. I, I would say a right eye shooter, because anyone who shoots guns knows that if you have a dominant left eye, you shoot with your left hand and a dominant right eye, you shoot with your right hand, I'm actually a left handed shooter, but I'm right handed. And that's because I have a dominant left eye. So this shooter was a right handed shooter, possibly dominated right eye shot through the back of the head. Went through through and through and we'll talk more about that with the autopsy through to his right finger, which must have been leaning on his forehead or by his eye. Um, it's a horrible thing to think about. It's something I've had nightmares about, um, countless nightmares about Leon's death after investigating it when it comes to an execution style killing. These are, you know, common killings in the south. They're very quick. They're done very effortlessly and common in some types of hate crimes. We also then have the burning of the car. So An accelerant was used. It's very clear from the patterns around the where the vehicle was located from 1996 in those pictures William Dyrtek. Till today you can still see that there are burn patterns where an accelerant must have been used to burn the car. 2 passerbys most likely coming from the hospital did call 911 after seeing a burning car. The witnesses claimed that there must have been trucks seen at the scene. It was at least 1 or 2 trucks. The descriptions of the truck or trucks were a white or red or white and red. We're not sure because we've had multiple reports. 1 ton flatbed pickup truck with a goose. neck trailer hitch. Obviously, that type of truck would be used to carry very, very heavy loads, could be used for construction materials, recreational vehicles. Also could be used for hauling any type of large thing. So obviously this is a working truck. It was also claimed to be a Ford in seventies, late seventies. So we're talking an old truck once used for some sort of heavy payload. We suspect that the perpetrators maybe would have had this truck parked somewhere on their property, not used very much in public and pulled it out. Specifically to commit this crime, the gooseneck trailer hitch is also another enigmatic piece of evidence that always haunts me because it seems like something that would be really noticeable. Like this truck would be very, very noticeable. However, as many people know, driving through Texas, there are a lot of trucks I'd say. You know, 1 out of every 3 cars is a truck. So they're common. We also know that 1 9 1 1 was called. The investigators got there pretty much immediately. At first they knew there was a burning car. They did not see the body. The body was about 10 feet in front of the car. You can actually, in the pictures kind of see where everything happened and we will put those in the show notes and. Potentially make this a YouTube video where you can see the evidence and we will make it more visual once His body was collected. He was taken to travis county Medical examiner where Ricardo Bayardo was responsible for his autopsy. So let's delve into the details of the autopsy report. First off, he was shot in the back of the head as we said earlier, specifically the right lower area. The bullet entered his head about two inches above the neck. And an inch to the right of the center line of his skull. So this means it was close range. What we also often call execution style. The entry wound was star shaped and about three quarters of an inch across. And there was also blackening and charring signs that the gun was fired very close to his head. And inside the wound, there was a lot of gunpowder residue. The bullet traveled from the back to the front of his brain, causing massive damage and fracturing his skull bones, then exited through his left eyebrow 2 inches to the left center of his forehead and exit room was irregular about an inch wide. The force was so severe that it tore his eyelids and his left eye was ruptured. Additionally, there's another part of this tragic puzzle. The bullet re entered his body through his thumb, which was near his left eyebrow at the time. So, right here. This wound on his thumb would, was long and uneven, and there was a minor scrape between his right thumb and his index finger. From this wound, the investigators recovered a deformed 38 caliber bullet. And then the bullet was carefully stored in a special envelope and handed over to officer McCoy of the Brown County Sheriff's Department at 945 am. Now, we now find out it was a 38. And Leah, you're a bit of a weapons specialist, I would say. What would you, what can you tell us about the weapon that was used in Leon's murder? So the thing about 38s is it was more than likely used in a revolver. There, there are exceptions to the rule, but most. Most guns that fire at 38 are a revolver, especially in the 90s. So that's an assumption that we can make right off the bat. There was also not a shell casing found at the scene, which also lends itself to the assumption that it was a revolver that was used in the crime. The 90s were kind of that transition period where we saw gun caliber popularity change amongst the public and, and within law enforcement as well. 38s were super popular with law enforcement at that time. And I know in smaller towns, smaller jurisdictions, they did take a little longer to move away from the 38 revolvers to a nine millimeter, which is. What most, what you'll find most commonly today. The last thing I want to mention is I want to go back to the car being burned. And the reason why this is somewhat important is because it's not that common to actually burn a car in a murder. I've seen, we see it sometimes, but usually when that's done, it's because. They know that they've left evidence in the car, so they've got to burn it in order to destroy all the evidence. And that takes a little bit of forethought, a little bit of knowing investigative techniques, or having some sort of criminal background where you would know to do that. So, the burning of the car doesn't, to me, seem like it was a heat of the moment crime. That's fine. That's premeditated. So I'm just going to throw this question out to you both. How many boxes in the base are in the basements of Texas Sheriff Department and Texas Rangers basements right now? How many boxes are sitting there? My guess is 23, 000. I'm going to say closer to, I'd say 40, 000. So from 1976 to the year 2020, where cold cases. Are being monitored by the FBI is 16, 667. That's a lot of boxes. That's a lot of boxes. That's going to be how many episodes that we have 16, 000. Are you ready? Ladies? Yes. There's a lot of cases to get through. I'll, I'll, I'll do the calculations on how much time we're going to be spending on podcasting if we don't get, you know, one of those AI voices to do it for us. We hope the numbers don't climb while we're doing this. They will. They've already have. This is till 2020. So cases are exactly. Okay. So let's go to the next. How many boxes, how many are of those boxes are men? I'm going to say 40%. Yeah, I would agree. 40%. It's actually way more than that. It's more like 75%. 13, 484. Men are so much more likely to be murdered than women. That's a common misconception. The next one is how many, so we're going to now go by, would you guys prefer to go by age or race that are similar to Leon? Either one. Race. Start with race. Yeah. Okay, so we're going to go with. Of Hispanic origin, which is in my opinion, kind of a weird way of looking at things, but this is what the government does. How many do you think are Hispanic of that 13, 000? I'm going to go with 7, 000. Oh, we're going with hard numbers instead of percentages this time. I'm going to go with 5, 000. It is, Leah, you're closer, 42 or 4, 200 basically. So 4, 279 to be precise. These are all cases that we'd like to invite our audience, if they're interested, to help us name names. So what we have are the state, the age, the sex, and the murder weapon. And the month and year that it occurred. And what we've been able to do is go onto newspapers. com or Google and just put in some of these Search terms and we're able to find the victim's names and then that's how we're able to go into the box in the basement We want to go and uncover as many names as possible We want names on these boxes and we want to invite You guys to help us. We are going to FOIA request many of these boxes and We are going to try to reach out to family members who want to work with us, interview them. Arlene is going to be our special interviewer. Arlene, would you like to tell us more about who you're going to be interviewing next? Next, I'll be interviewing some of Amanda Goodman's family members. Amanda Goodman was 13 years old, living in Brownwood, Texas, when she was also executed. And there are many similarities to Leon's case. So we are going to delve into that case next. And many of you might be thinking, what does a 13 year old girl and a 26 year old gay man have in common? Well, you're going to find out on that episode that The circumstances of the case have too many similarities for it to be a coincidence. If you haven't done so already, please go follow the Justice for Leon Facebook page and check out our website, justiceforleon. com. There is also a call to action there where you can donate money to our GoFundMe, donate time through Uncovered, or simply share our podcast and Leon's case. There is also a link and a phone number where you can share tips and information safely. We would really appreciate if you would like, share, and subscribe to Box in the Basement Podcasts wherever you listen. Thank you and be kind.