Restoration Beyond the Couch
'Restoration Beyond The Couch' with Dr. Lee Long: Insights for Mental Wellness: Join Dr. Lee Long on 'Beyond The Couch,' a transformative podcast blending professional psychological insights with real-life experiences, offering practical strategies for mental wellness that bridge the gap between therapy and everyday life.
The Beyond the Couch with Dr. Lee Long podcast is intended solely for general informational purposes and does not represent the practice of medicine, therapeutic and psychiatric services, nursing, or other professional health care services. It also does not constitute the provision of medical, therapeutic or psychiatric advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is established. The information on this podcast and any materials linked from it are used at the user's own risk. The content provided through this podcast should not be considered a replacement for professional medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It is important that users do not ignore or postpone seeking medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice for any health or mental health condition they might have, and should always consult with their health care professionals regarding such conditions.
Restoration Beyond the Couch
Unlocking You and Your Relationships: A Deep Dive into the Enneagram
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Unlock the secrets to your true potential with the profound wisdom of Enneagram experts Jeddy Bowen and Dayna Corley. Promising a journey of self-discovery, our conversation on Restoration Beyond the Couch reveals how understanding the Enneagram can transform both personal and professional lives. With insights from modern psychology and ancient spirituality, this episode promises to shift your perspective on personality, character, and how we relate to the world.
Jeddy and Dayna guide us through the Enneagram's nine distinct personality types, each with unique motivations and challenges. From the Perfectionists and Helpers to the Individualists and Investigators, we examine how our early life experiences shape these types. The discussion also highlights the duality between our authentic and adapted selves, enlightening listeners on the journey to genuine spiritual growth. Their discussion is enriched by the fascinating work of Dr. Jerome Lubbe, who bridges the Enneagram with neuroscience, offering a contemporary twist to this ancient wisdom.
As we explore the intricacies of each Enneagram type, the episode underscores the transformative power of self-awareness and empathy. By understanding not just our own type but also those around us, we can enhance communication and compassion in all our relationships. Whether in a family or team setting, the Enneagram serves as a dynamic tool for fostering deeper connections and adaptability. Embrace the path to your most authentic self and discover how to nurture profound connections with others through the enriching insights shared in this episode.
Check out Dayna and Jeddy at: https://www.telosfw.com
Enneagram Assessment: https://assessment.yourenneagramcoach.com/
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch, hosted by Dr Lee Long. In this episode, dr Long interviews Jetty and Dana, a dynamic duo of Enneagram experts who work together to bring transformation to both personal and professional lives. Jetty, a therapist specializing in personal growth and healing, and Dana, who works with organizations and businesses, combine their expertise to help individuals and teams foster deeper connections and self-awareness. Together, they provide a powerful perspective on how the Enneagram can unlock personal and professional transformation. Join us as we dive into their journey and explore the profound impact the Enneagram has on relationships, work environments and personal development.
Speaker 3Welcome Dana Corley and Jetty Bowen to, honestly, two of my most favorite people here to talk about a subject the Enneagram. I think people it's so funny because I feel like when we talk about the Enneagram it's a skosh bit polarizing, because people are like, oh, those numbers and all that. But then other people are like totally bought in, they totally sink into it and they have so much fun with it. And then they say, oh well, that's so one of you. Or oh my gosh, that's your eight popping out and it's like this creates this little language, right? Oh yeah, it's a whole subculture, a whole subculture, and that's what we're going to explore today. So thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 4Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 3So how would you all, how would you give us an overview and I know this is a big question, but how would you all give us?
Speaker 4an. What would your overview of the Enneagram be? Well, in its most simple form, the Enneagram is a tool utilizing both modern psychology and spirituality ancient spirituality to really discover who we really are and in all of our glory. We have two selves a false self and a true self, or an authentic self and an adapted self. And, at its basic core, the Enneagram has been able to identify nine distinct personalities that all of us will fall into one of those, and there's a lot of crossover on how we manifest that personality, so it can be challenging to discover which type you actually fall into, but there's. It's just a tool for personal self-discovery and, hopefully, growth.
Speaker 5Love that. Yeah, yeah, I would echo that and just say it's a tool for transformation. It's really. It helps to put language to the box that you've been living in and it's an invitation to step out of that.
Speaker 3Yeah, I love the way you guys are characterizing this, because it is ancient. I mean, how far back does it go? Like several thousand years, correct?
Speaker 4Yeah, I mean it's theorizing, putting historical things together, but as far back for sure as the desert fathers and mothers, and then it utilizes things out of sort of the mystics of multiple religions, multiple faiths, the Sufis of the Kabbalah, of the Bible, and just utilizing the traits that are similar in those mystic books. And a lot of it has been passed down orally and then put together in the last century by a few guys that kind of put it on paper and then started refining it more with modern psychology.
Speaker 3Now, to your knowledge, has there been any research like like, have have we had any studies or anything using the Enneagram? Do you all know?
Speaker 4Well, using the Enneagram. Can you expand on that?
Speaker 3Yeah. Has anybody utilized the Enneagram and studied it in a in a, a um in a? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4Well, there are a lot of psychologists that use it, um, a lot of guys that are that are, you know, teaching on emotional health? Um, and our emotional quotient will often utilize the Enneagram in becoming more aware of who we are that way. There is one person in particular currently, dr Jerome Love, who has an organization called the Brain-Based Enneagram, and his work is fascinating because he really is a scientist as well as a psychologist. Nice is a scientist as well as a psychologist, nice, um, I have read his book and utilized some of his stuff, but I'm not proficient at it to be able to speak at length about but, he.
Speaker 4He incorporates the way our brains work and the different parts of our brain, and how they tie in with the different personality styles. Nice.
Speaker 3Nice, looking at the neurochemistry and all that good stuff that's nice.
Speaker 3That's nice. So it's a tool to discover yourself, Would you say. Because here's my take on the Enneagram is that it is a it's. First of all, I found it to be the most usable for my own personal sense, the most usable tool that gave me insight into why is it that I'm so driven by fun and I discipline is so difficult for me, but I found a workaround that, if I could look at something as an enjoyable thing, like running, People used to say to me you are such a disciplined person to get up so early all the time.
Speaker 3And I'm thinking to myself that's not discipline. I so enjoy the people that I run with that if I know they're going to be there, that we're going to have these great conversations and I don't want to miss out on that. So there's so're going to be there, that we're going to have these great conversations, and I don't want to miss out on that. So there's so much fun to be had and I use that as my workaround, if you will, to create a sense of disciplined outcomes. But the process was all about fun and that's how I found my workaround and I think that for others, if it's utilized, I'm guessing that you guys feel the same way, that if you utilize this, it it works for other people as well, in the way that they're maybe bent or predetermined in their sense of who they are.
Speaker 4Absolutely and in in your example we could actually unpack a lot more in there but we won't because you didn't ask that question Unpack away.
Speaker 4Well, as a seven, you do want fun, you do want adventure. But why do you want that? And the Enneagram will get behind, not what we do, but why we do it Right. Why do you want that fun? And for a seven, sevens want to avoid pain. So there's something driving our personalities that is, we want to avoid something and we want to get our basic needs met. And also, the cool thing about the Enneagram is there. It's a dynamic system. Nobody's stuck in one place. We may all have a type that we identify with because of what the motive of that type is, but we move around that Enneagram diagram and we connect to other types and we can actually connect to every type and have some of every type within us.
Speaker 3I love that.
Speaker 4Yeah, person who's most concerned about getting their basic needs met and protecting themselves and what they think they need.
Speaker 4And we have the social person, who's more about connecting with other people and being part of the group and moving the group forward and having their role in that group space. And then there is the one-on-one, which is also referred to as the sexual. That's more about the coupling with that one other person and really connecting deeply. Well, you, as a seven, are also a social seven, so when you want to run, it's the connection with others that's driven by your social also. So there's several things going on when you make that choice. And the discipline part is there for you too, because, as a seven, you also go to the one space which is an extraordinarily disciplined person, right, so you've got a lot going on, but it's so fascinating.
Speaker 3It is so fascinating going on, but it's so fascinating, it is so fascinating and I'd love for you to give our listeners a little peek behind what a seven, what a one or any other type that you want to highlight. But that's the part that to me, was so freeing, so helpful is that I would take different personality tests because in our, in our field, especially going through our programs test, because in our, in our field, especially going through our programs, we had to take a lot of personality inventories and I would always. I had one mentor look at me and said you broke the test, because he said you have all of these sanguine qualities. But then you have this melancholic quality and he's like I think you broke the test and I was like, well gosh, I didn't mean to break the test. And when I understood the Enneagram better I was like I didn't break the test.
Speaker 3It's pointing to the two different places that I think I was under a lot of stress and pressure when I took that inventory and what it was showing that in stress I go to a sense of perfectionism to myself and so that's that melancholic piece is that, you know, it's that enthusiastic or that sanguine piece is that at, I guess at my baseline I would say, is what I where I would go, but in stress it's there and that's where it doesn't. The personality inventories don't always pick that up.
Speaker 5Yes, and something that we mentioned also is is what makes the Enneagram so unique from other personality assessments is a lot of times these personality assessments, there's a lot of emphasis on behavior and what we're seeing right.
Speaker 5Whereas the Enneagram is really giving language. It's kind of like lifting the the the lid a little bit and looking below the surface of what's actually driving and motivating the behavior. What are my core beliefs, what are those core fears that are moving me towards these behaviors? And that's what I would say makes it so unique and so helpful and provide this opportunity or invitation for transformation. And you mentioned kind of this workaround, right, Like when I understand that I can, I can start to kind of move to shift out of that. But I think, on the flip side, the other thing that's beautiful about it is it also that awareness of what's below the surface really can increase our compassion for not only ourselves but for those around us.
Speaker 3You know. That's so. Yes, yes, yes, yes, with all exclamation points behind it. The thing that sold me on the Enneagram I was already sold before, but the thing that solidified it to me at its core, or to my core, was I had a struggle in a relationship with a very close person and once I understood their Enneagram number, all of a sudden for me, I was like, oh, now I understand where you're coming from, and all of the hurt, all of the pain in our interactions just disappeared. I had an. I had a better understanding that, yes, their impact on me may have been painful, but their intent was certainly more illuminated. Therefore, I could have a whole lot more space and grace for the impact.
Speaker 5Yeah, it doesn't feel so personal.
Speaker 3Correct yes Cause, it wasn't about me.
Speaker 4And the reality is, we all live out of our ego or our false self. If we don't realize that there's something deeper and that false self is designed to protect us and to promote us, and if we don't, like Jenny said, pull back the lid undo the veil to look deeper inside of what's really going on in our hearts, we will continue to live in the subconscious, automated program that's been running our entire lives, and so change doesn't occur without an honest evaluation of what's really going on inside.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 5An honest yet nonjudgmental evaluation.
Speaker 4That's so important.
Speaker 5Because what you're describing is this adapted version of us, which all of us take on a personality. It's this adapted version and it's simply just our means for survival, like we're just surviving, we're just learning to, to function.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 5And so I think that piece is so important is when we are evaluating and we're really taking a deeper look at ourselves. We have to be willing to let go of the judgment and give ourselves the grace that I'm. I really am doing the best. I know how to do Right, yep.
Speaker 3This promotes curiosity versus that sense of certainty, which certainty, I believe, often leads to judgment. I'm certain it's this, but wait, are you? And I think about what you're talking about, with that false self, that ego, that adaptive self. We have a term in our field perceptual understanding. And okay, we all know what perception is. Well, that was my perception of it. We hear that was my truth, that was my reality.
Speaker 3But in our field I don't know that we all give as much credence to the understanding that that perception is a lens that we look at the world through. That lens is built on experiences from the past. It's built on present experience, but it's built on how we ingested the world. And I think about the term proprioception, which is a physical term and that's how does my body move through, how does my body navigate gravity Right? To me, proprioception is the physical, where perceptual perception or perceptual understanding is the metaphysical, because it's how do I move through life with an understanding of my lens Right? And do I ever take my lenses off and try to clean them a little bit to see that maybe my lens is not the factual truth, it's my understanding of it? I'm not saying that there aren't absolutes there. Let me make this very clear there are absolutes, there are Mm-hmm, but then there's my perceptual understanding of the absolute.
Exploring the Enneagram Personality System
Speaker 3Exactly and how often do we navigate through those right?
Speaker 4And it has been interesting because there have been studies done using Enneagram where you take a set of twins that were raised in the same environment and they're very different personalities and they perceived their experiences, their traumas differently because of the lens, and that's why I think that our personalities are part of our soul DNA. It is obviously a combination of nature versus nurture, but I think that it is innate in how we look at the world and in the Enneagram world. It's a disconnection from what's true about our being. It's a disconnection from actually what God imprinted on us. Wow, one of the things in the Enneagram we love is to talk about.
Speaker 4Personality is actually a mask.
Speaker 4The Latin word for personality comes from the word mask, and so our personalities are a mask that we put on and we move through the world with this mask because we want other people to see what we want them to see, or we want to believe that the mask we're wearing is who we really are.
Speaker 4But the word character comes from the word being engraved, and character, in our opinion, is the divine engraving, the divine imprint of the Imago Dei. That's the true self, that's the essence of who we are. But we disconnect from that in order to protect and promote ourselves in the world, because we don't have a manual and all of the first seven years of life is just programming. We're taking information in but we don't have the maturity to know how to process that in truth, and so it's a distortion through our lens and that becomes the basis for the personality, and so we develop coping strategies and defense mechanisms for that promotion and protection Right, and they become more ingrained, more ingrained with our experiences, with our hurts, with our traumas, with our unhealed pain, and we don't realize the interior infrastructure that is being built and solidified, and that's what we live out of, and without the work, that's what we live out of, and without the work, that's what we continue to live out of right which offers as a therapist right.
Speaker 4It offers us so much, I guess, fertile ground to to help people walk through healing from what you're describing and the beauty is the language is there in the program, so it's a helpful tool, right, it's not just pulling out of thin air, it's really being able to to, to narrow down and have people relate to. Once they read it, they might not have been able to come up with the language themselves, but this gives them the ability to go oh my gosh. I identify with that. That feels so true to me and I don't want to be that way necessarily.
Speaker 3Right. I've always said it was interesting that the, the, the questionnaires. People will say, well, I did the questionnaire and I came out this and you're thinking? I've interacted with you enough to know. I don't know that that's accurate, because what is the? What is the stat that it's?
Speaker 5the test are about 70% accurate.
Speaker 5So, that's tricky, right, so cause, you're right. A lot of people are like, well, I did the free online test and I'm always like Ooh, because we also in in the Enneagram world like I can't tell someone, even even if I know them intimately, I cannot tell someone what motivates them. Right, and so it's. It is a journey of self-discovery that we've talked about, but just simply taking the test is not always going to be accurate, because, whether we like it or not, we're answering the way we want to believe that we are or how we want to be perceived. Another thing, too, is when you take the test, it's recommended to think back on your kind of early adulthood years, like early 20s, where you don't have as much stress and responsibility, right, right, and so you're probably more aware of yourself, but also more really living out of that, that kind of core space.
Speaker 3You haven't had to adapt as much.
Speaker 5Yes, yeah, um so we kind of like to say, yes, take a test, but read your top, your top few and see if one of those like study those a little bit and see if one resonates with you.
Speaker 3Again, that's a. That is what is so to me. What is what's intriguing about the Enneagram is that it is a. It is a point to discover because there is so much complexity and this is some of the criticism I hear is there's so much complexity, am I a one, am I a two? A three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. And then you have wings. So okay, are you a seven, six wing? Are you a seven, eight wing? Oh, I was winging on my six there, oh, I was winging on my eight there.
Speaker 3And then you say okay, but I'm in stress, so I go to a one in stress. And then, oh, but I was happy, so I was going to a five, and it's. And then are you self-preserving, right? Are you social? Are you one-on-one? What's your?
Speaker 4level of health when you travel Right it is very complex, which it's really fun for those who like to geek out on that Right, but for those it can be overwhelming to think about all that too. And the reality is you are always a unique individual, created in the image of God, no matter what type you might identify with.
Enneagram Personality Numbers Overview
Speaker 3Yes, which is that's part of the discovery process. Right, it's because how do we show up in the world? How do we show up in the world and are we aware of our impact? Are we curious of how we show up in the world? And I think this can be a large wormhole that sends you into a whole new galaxy of trying to figure out how you show up in the world. So could you give our listeners a little background on you? We've said seven, we've said one, six. What would you mind giving us a background on what, like what, the numbers are and sure?
Speaker 5Do you want like an overview of each number?
Speaker 3Sure, that'd be great.
Speaker 5Okay, what do I want to start with? I'd go ahead and start with ones. Okay, you want to start? Okay. So ones are they're known as the perfectionist. Ones kind of see what's missing, what's broken, and they have the solution and they know, they know how to fix it, and so oftentimes they can come across. The impact might be that people people receive them as critical but in their mind they're really just helping because they have the solution, right, and so they can be.
Speaker 5They tend to be very black and white people and ones what? What sets them apart is a one has this voice in their head that is their inner critic and it has been with them probably for as long as they can remember, right, and many ones. When you say to them, you know, not everybody has that they're shocked because it's so familiar to them this, this voice that is constantly criticizing and and perfecting and correcting, um, yeah, am I missing anything you want to add?
Speaker 4no, I don't know how deep you want us to go. Because, their most familiar emotion would be anger, and it's more of an anger that things aren't the way they should be, because they have an ideal image of what the world should be like, and so they live trying to perfect that and bring that about. And not everybody has that, and so there's this inner anger that you don't see what they see. And why aren't you helping to make this world a better place or this person a better person?
Speaker 3Right, and the beauty of the one is that they truly do have a sense of something that they're aiming for.
Speaker 4They do. We kind of like to call it a superpower.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 4They really do have an innate sense of how to make things better, honestly, but all of us, all of us tend to over-identify with the personality and lose ourselves in that Right and lose perspective because of that.
Speaker 5Right right and for the one, their core motivation is to be good. They don't want to be a good person, and so their gift is discernment. They really do have the gift of discernment and are able to very quickly kind of discern what is right, what is wrong, what is good, bad yeah, and they fear being bad.
Speaker 3Sure.
Speaker 4So they're very hard on themselves and tend to be hard on others because of that.
Speaker 3We're trying to perfect there Exactly.
Speaker 4They want the best for you, right.
Speaker 3Yeah, right, and it's really. I do think that there's a a real pure for lack of a better word motivation there, so okay, so there's the one, now the two two, two's there, so okay, so there's the one now the two, two, twos um. I'm assuming we're going in order.
Speaker 4Yes, okay yes, uh, twos have a need to be needed. They're called the helper, um. Each number has a little name for it and there's multiple names for it, but that's the two and they want desperately to be liked um, and so they go out of their way to try to meet the needs of others and they kind of have a superpower of what others' needs are, and so they're very attuned to that. But they're not very attuned to their own needs, and so they're not good at identifying what their own needs. But deep inside they want you to know what their needs are, because they know what your needs are, and they want you to meet their needs. But they will never ask you to meet their needs.
Speaker 4So resentment can kind of build up in the twos, but they spend their lives trying to take care of others and have a just real sensitivity towards others and knowing they could walk into a room where there's a conference being held and be sensitive to oh, is that? Is the temperature right in this room for everybody? Is the light right? I want to make it right for everybody. And they're lovely people, they're very warm and they look towards others before they kind of react to things or respond to things.
Speaker 3So it's an external orientation where it seems like a I guess a one. Is that the one actually?
Speaker 4looks towards others also.
Speaker 3Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 4We could get into a word for this, but we're going to keep it simple and not go there, but I want the word now. It's their stance, their dependent stance, and our stance is basically our posture, that we move through the world in how we sort of react to things, and the two's posture is always looking towards others. They want to get the feedback from others and again, this is subconscious Most of our living, our most of our living, 95 of our living, is autopilot right so it's comes in, coming out of the subconscious, uh part of us.
Speaker 4So that's what twos do, uh, they want to make sure every everybody's okay so ones and twos are both in the dependent stance.
Speaker 5Just to clarify yeah sure yeah, yeah, do we cover twos?
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 5Threes.
Speaker 3Go for it Uh.
Speaker 5Three. The word for three is the achiever, performer, um. Threes are um. They are also in what we call the image triad, so they're very aware of how other people experience them and so they. They don't necessarily move towards others the way that the twos or the ones might, but they're very in tune with. Okay, when I step into this space, what's expected of me? What do other people perceive as successful? And they're able to kind of meet that expectation. Threes highly value efficiency. They're typically very hardworking and very focused on productivity. For a three, they equate admiration with love.
Speaker 5They deeply want to be admired. Um, and they are not in the dependent stance here, the aggressive or, what I like to say, assertive stance right, Because aggressive has a little bit of negative connotation.
Speaker 3Right which?
Speaker 5really what that means is people in the aggressive, assertive stance. They are willing to move against others in order to get what they want right. So they've kind of got their eye on the prize or on the goal and they'll kind of do what it takes to get there.
Speaker 3So when you think about a three who's achievement-oriented eye on the prize, the one who is perfection oriented, Can you delineate a little bit of that? That's a good question.
Speaker 5Um, because actually they're the subtype of the three, which is a self-preserving three, looks a lot like a one, and so that's a really good question and clarifying question. Um, one thing is that, uh, while threes highly value efficiency, they, they, they're okay to cut corners as long as they get the job done and it looks good enough. Got it Because they want to get a lot of jobs done right, whereas the one really values being thorough and doing it precisely and perfectly right. They will dot their I's and cross their T's and take time doing it, and the three doesn't quite have that inner critic voice. They're more focused on again, like how am I being experienced by those around me and how can I set myself up to be admired, whereas the one has this innate sense of what is right and what is moral and they will stick with that kind of regardless of the environment, right.
Speaker 3Okay, that makes sense, no that's good.
Speaker 4Ones are going for goodness. Threes are going for admiration.
Speaker 3Okay.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Enneagram Personality Types
Speaker 3Okay, makes sense.
Speaker 5Four, fours. I'll let you do fours.
Speaker 4Fours are the people that desire to be unique and they are very connected to their hearts. They're also in the image triad, so the twos, threes and fours are in the image triad, which is most concerned with connections and relationships. Those three numbers and we call that the heart triad also, okay and fours just have a need to be special, a need to stand out and to be separate for their uniqueness, and they have a great deal of empathy, like a superpower of empathy, okay. And they also have this huge range of emotions, and so the fours can often feel deeply saddened in one moment and 10 minutes later be elated over something. Fours are the person you want to sit with you in your pain and sorrow, because they will sit with you in that, whereas other numbers are ready to go okay enough let's go
Speaker 4um force can usually sit a long time in that and they can sit a long time in their own. They want to deeply feel that to them is a source of life where other types want to avoid feeling certain feelings or the depth of emotions because it's disruptive. For fours it feels like they're living, no matter how good or bad that emotion is. Fours have this innate superpower of bringing beauty to the world. They tend to be very creative, the world. They tend to be very creative, Very often people in the arts of any kind, whether it's music or performing or textiles, whatever it is. They just have this real gift of creativity and so the world is a better place because of that. And they have this ideal world of everybody being special and unique and getting along. And they can be super challenging because they're probably the most misunderstood.
Speaker 3Interesting.
Speaker 5And at their core they believe that there's something innately missing in them that everybody else has, yeah, and so for them. They oftentimes really struggle with envy.
Speaker 4And I'm glad you brought that up, that is true. So that feeling inside of them of something's lacking is always there. Okay, so there's a lot of of unconscious comparison going on with the four and they don't ever measure up. So part of their uniqueness, part of their way of being, is trying to prove that they do have something to bring to the table. Wow, yeah, yeah. So any questions on the four?
Speaker 3No, I love, I love how you all are putting this out. There is that, there's this, there's this bottom line Humanity is beautiful. Now I understand, when we operate out of our as y'all are saying our false self, our adoptive self, that we can be painful to other people, but the uniqueness of each type of person is just so beautiful to observe and to think about. Okay, moving toward this type of individual, this is what would be so helpful for me to offer to connect, not that I need to change me, I just need to understand them. And it's knowing, it's giving, maybe, parameters, not not to sound confining, but it's giving parameters to how people may show up for you or with you, and knowing how to be curious in that. So this is, to me, this. That's what I love about the Enneagram is learning those parameters of this is how they may show up and it's unique to them, which is beautiful because then we can explore it.
Speaker 5Yes, so we move to the five which is the, the five is the investigator or observer. I was thinking you were going to say explorer because of what I said.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's true. Yeah, the explorer with the explorer. I'm just kidding um fives are.
Speaker 5We talked about stances a minute ago and fours and fives are both in what's called the withdrawing stance, so they go inward. Um, fives really live in their head. They're in the head triad uh, which means they. A familiar emotion to them is anxiety or worry, um, but for a five, the kind of this concept that knowledge is power is sort of what drives them. They accumulate and um uh, gather as much information as they can Um, and that uh that helps them to feel competent, which is one of their top values, is competency.
Speaker 5Um, fives also have, uh, a lot of fives that I've talked to. It's almost like they have this visual of a battery or or a tank of gas and they start the day like this and they're watching it start to go down and they've kind of got to be back in their safe space before they're they're out of juice, um, and so they're, they're out of juice, and so they're very aware of and focused on preserving their energy, which means that they oftentimes aren't the quickest to willingly share, whether it's knowledge or insight. Fives are oftentimes the wisest on the Enneagram, but they're not quick to share that insight and wisdom Because, again, they're so focused on preserving their capacity and their energy.
Speaker 3So would a self-preserving five look different than a more preserving than a five? Yes, and a social five would still be looking at that gas gauge, so to speak, but they would be a little more willing to connect. While there's a the, the one-on-one five, that's really linked together with that one person, but they're still watching that as if they were self-preserving. I bet that's an interesting subtype to uncover and discover with a five. Yeah.
Speaker 4Cause the fives, you know they they hoard their resources because of that false belief that they won't have enough to get through the day. So they're constantly measuring what they can give and what they need to just hold on to. And, like Jenny said, their head is their castle, it's their favorite place to be and they can be super creative fives and creating in there. Many of our really brilliant people are fives and they spend so much time in their head, you know, coming up with ideas, huge solutions to the world's problems, and so it is interesting.
Speaker 4But the fives, also because of that, they are the most emotionally detached of all the types. They value their information more than they value emotional connections often, and so you see them really withdrawing and holding on to that, because that information, that proficiency of what they own, is everything to them and they are willing to share it if you're willing to listen. But if they share it and you really aren't paying attention, they're like a turtle, they'll go back into their shell and they're not ever going to share that again. So they risked it one time. If it's well received, that's really good, but if not, it's backed off Wow.
Speaker 1Wow.
Speaker 5Okay, you can imagine a five with a four wing or a four with a five wing has a lot of internal.
Speaker 3Yeah, there's a lot of. There's the opportunity for a lot of internal turmoil, but there's also an opportunity to be tapped in to. I mean, like you could take over the world.
Speaker 4Yeah, a five with a four, I think, is a real gift, because it does have that emotional connection there when the five with the six, they're both in their heads all the time, Gotcha.
Speaker 1So moving to the six.
Speaker 4Moving to the six.
Speaker 5Do you want to do six or me? I don't know.
Speaker 4Oh, you do sevens, I'll do six. So five, sixes and sevens, where the twos, threes and fours were all in the emotional heart, most concerned with relationships and connections, the fives, sixes and sevens are in what we call the head triad, or the intellectual side. They are always in their heads so they think their way through life. They don't feel their way through life. They think their way through life. They don't feel their way through life, they think their way through life. And so for the sixes.
Speaker 4The sixes are constantly thinking, but what they want most, which all of the ones in this head triad want, certainty and security. That's what the head space is going for. The sixes, especially, are going for security and certainty. And the sixes are in the dependent stance, so they're looking towards others. They want the world to be a safe place. And so if you're a type six, you often, if you go into a restaurant, you're going to sit where you can see the door. You want to know where the exits are. You want to know what you have to do to get out of there if something goes down.
Speaker 4I mean, that's sort of an extreme example, but it's not uncommon right so sixes are keenly aware of how secure they are in the world and they're concerned with everybody's security. So they tend to be very communal in their concern and putting things in place that benefit all of the group. They're in the society they're a part of, whatever it is right?
Speaker 4um, because sixes are always in their head. They have a high level of anxiety, a high level of worry, and so their wheels are always spinning in their head, but they're never really at rest or at peace because they are constantly thinking of worst case scenarios that, well, this might happen. Well, if that doesn't happen, this could happen. And if that doesn't happen, well, this could happen. So they're creating plans all the time plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D to cover their bases if something goes wrong. Plan B, plan C, plan D to cover their bases if something goes wrong. But they spend so much of their energy concerned with what might happen they're not liberated to live in the now. Right.
Speaker 4And what is good and true about now.
Speaker 3And what's so fascinating about what you're describing to me is, I think about you know, when I was trying to type myself thinking well, but I identify with that I. I walk in and I look at the restaurant and I'm like what's the best view that I can have in this restaurant to see everything. And you think, oh gosh, okay, well then maybe I'm a six. And then I think, well, wait, what's the motivation for that? The motivation in my mind is not so that am I safe? The motivation in my mind is I want to see everything.
Speaker 4I want to experience everything and I might see somebody.
Speaker 1I know and I want to say hi.
Speaker 3But there's also that space of I am always thinking and planning, but it's not the worst case scenario, it's for best case scenario. It's for best case scenario, it's how to maximize things, and so I think that that's what I love about the Enneagram is that it truly is about motivation, and that's why the test, those online quizzes, are probably not as accurate, because are we being prompted in each question? What's your motivation behind this?
Speaker 5And how many of us are aware of our motivations? Right, and so we usually right, because we don't know that again, that's that perceptual understanding of ourselves.
Speaker 3Are we aware of that? No, not always. Well, I would say very rarely are we aware? I think we in this field have a an advantage. Well, it would say very rarely are we aware. I think we in this field have an advantage. Well, it could be an advantage if we utilize it to really think through. Wait, what is it? Why is it that I do this? Yes, not to beat ourselves to death with that Right, but it truly is to discover, curiously Right To discover yourself and those around you, right, okay, so the sixes are plagued with a lot of self-doubt.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 4And so where the ones have the critic in their head, the sixes tend to have a committee in their head. Right.
Speaker 4And so they don't trust themselves. And so in their mind, they'll go around to different people in mind, they'll also physically go to different people to check out things before they make a decision for themselves, because they just simply don't trust that inner voice of assuring them that, yes, they can go for it, they can do it. So the sixes have to really draw up a lot of courage to move through the world and get what they want what a beautiful thing to observe in a six and to celebrate with them and and superpower of the six is they.
Speaker 5They are incredibly loyal people, like incredibly, and like my sixes that are or, I'm sorry, my friends that are sixes. Those are the ones that I probably am in touch with the most because they make the effort to reach out. Um, so they're really good friends. And the other, the other beauty that they bring, I would say, is that they're oftentimes they are prepared for things right, I love being on a play date with another mom who's a six, cause she's got an extra bandaid, she's got extra snacks, like she is ready.
Speaker 3She's got the Mary Poppins bag bag I'm like thank you you know, so I do I just think it's so important.
Understanding the Enneagram Seven Personality
Speaker 5It's easy to look at. You know the the pitfalls or the downside of each type and but, like you said earlier, every single type brings a unique beauty to the world. I think that's so important to highlight.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, on to the seven seven.
Speaker 5do you want to talk about seven?
Speaker 3No, no, I would love to hear y'all's take on this.
Speaker 5Um, okay, so sevens are like we've mentioned. They're pain avoiders, um, and how that manifests is they're they're looking at all their options again in their head and, like you said, they're not necessarily scanning worst case scenario. They're looking at all the options. Right, sevens want options. There's this fear of being trapped, and because if they get trapped, they might get stuck in pain, and that is their worst fear. And so they're always creating options. We kind of joke. The sevens are the ones who you know. They want one of everything on the menu.
Speaker 5We just want to try it all you know they tend to be adventurers, tend to be life of the party people. Um, there's something that is very magnetic about a sevens personality. People are drawn to them. Um, they do enjoy having fun, they're up for an adventure. They tend to be, yes, people, and so they're really fun to have around, for sure, um, but again, what's the motivation? Right? A lot of times it's creating the options and bringing the energy, so as not to have to connect with the pain that is. That is an inevitable part of life, right? Um, I'm trying to think of what else about sevens are so much.
Speaker 4Yeah, sevens are very charismatic. Like you said, they really endear people to them. They have a high, high, high amount of energy. They tend to go, go, go, and when we say they're pain avoiders, it can also be just negativity. You know, anything that kind of lowers their own energetic level. They want to avoid that if they can, and they will sometimes be non-committal because if they commit to something that feels like they're trapped and locked in and that means if something better comes along, they can't do it. So they would rather, if you ask them to do something, they'll say instead of oh, yes, put it on my calendar. Good to go. They'll often say that sounds really great. Yeah, check back with me on that. I think that would be really fun.
Speaker 5Well unhealthy seven would say that. I think unhealthy sevens would say yes in the moment because it sounds fun but if something better comes along, they have no problem and the thing about it is, is sevens don't take things as personally.
Speaker 4So if they better deal, yeah, they don't think that's a big deal, because if somebody did that to them they wouldn't mind so much. They kind of get it, but for those that don't get it, it can feel very personal yeah.
Speaker 5Well and they're not taking things personally to that point they are one of their gifts is they can reframe things immediately, right? So they're. They're kind of the eternal optimist until they're not. But they, because they're so optimistic and wanting to see the good and experience the good, they are so quick to reframe anything, anything that may be perceived as negative. They can very quickly spin it and make it seem fine, or even good or positive.
Speaker 4So they're one of the idealist types that wants an ideal world that's free of pain, and they see the silver lining in every cloud.
Speaker 3yeah, that makes a lot of sense and thank goodness for sevens.
Speaker 4It makes the world of much more fun and adventurous, that is true, they tend to be impulsive too. That's something yes, they do, because they they think and then act. They're pretty disconnected from their feelings and they also think if one is good, then 10 is better.
Speaker 5Yes, More is always better, that's right.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 5Did we miss anything you want to add?
Exploring the Enneagram Eight Personality
Speaker 3No, I think you covered it all. Yes, and I'm feeling very bare right now. No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding Because I think you do bring up a really interesting point is that there is a healthy side to each of these numbers and then there is an unhealthy side to each of these numbers, and there's that space of learning.
Speaker 3Again, to me, like you all started out the conversation, this is a tool. It's a tool of discovery, and in discovery we, then it creates options, and those options are we can operate in a healthy manner or we can operate in an avoidant manner, and sometimes it's knowing that. My option is that, yeah, I'm going to have to do some things here that I may not enjoy and I'm going to have to be hemmed in a little bit if I say yes to this, but let our yes be yes and our no be no, and let's be loyal and our no be no, and let's be loyal and stick to the things that we need to stick to, because that may be something that I, that there may be a knee jerk reaction to that, but I get to act opposite action, you know, to emotion or to to fear, and that I, we get to move through and we may look like a different number, but it's because we're operating out of a healthy space, right? So I just think that's really. That's the joy of understanding yourself.
Speaker 4Yeah, okay, on to the eight. One more thing about sevens. Sevens also tend not to be terribly emotionally connected to themselves, because they want everything to be light and happy. And sevens often look like threes because they're actually more interested in their image than you would think. But it's a big part of sevens is how are other people perceiving me?
Speaker 5I want to be the fun person I want to be light.
Speaker 4Yeah right, yeah, so okay, moving on to eights, so eights are in the gut triad, or what we also call the instinctual triad, and these are people that respond from that just sense of knowing okay. So they're not thinking their way through life, they're not feeling their way through life, they're sensing their way through life. So eights are typically very strong people because they want to avoid weakness and vulnerability. They tend to be leaders because they're also in that aggressive stance. By the way, sevens are also in the aggressive, assertive stance, so they'll go against others to get what they want.
Speaker 5And eights, Sevens do it in such a charming way you don't realize.
Speaker 4Yeah, they bring you along with them. Eights, on the other hand, tend to just kind of put their foot down and go no, I'm doing this, you know, and so they are strong. But people are often drawn to eights because of their strength, and that can be a very magnetic pull for people that want that in their life, that aren't oriented towards really stepping up or standing up, and so they'll look to eights for that leadership and guidance.
Speaker 4And so they'll look to eights for that leadership and guidance. Eights are really, underneath the surface, very sensitive people and they want to do well for people. They want to have an influence in people's lives and they want to have an influence for good in people's lives. They are often um impulsive, like sevens, because they're very quick at making decisions. Like eights sum up things really quickly, they'll assess something and they will have a decision like that and they don't tend to go back on that decision. Now they can be talked out of it, if you know, with somebody coming up with a reasonable reason to consider things differently. But they're just real quick assessors. They move through life very quickly and they move forward through life. Eights don't tend to look back and eights have a way of communicating that can be very cut and dry. They're not couching their language in softness or flowery language, not because they want to hurt anybody.
Speaker 5They don't.
Speaker 4They simply are so moving forward. They want to get things done. They don't want to spend a lot of time on extraneous conversations because that gets in the way of getting things done. And eights have the most amount of energy of all the numbers on the Enneagram. Sevens are right behind them, but eights just, and they can be like a bull in a china shop. They don't mean to, but it's like they have blinders on going through life.
Speaker 4Especially the unhealthier you are, you're not very aware of how you're impacting others, and so the healthier you are, you're taking that into consideration. It'll modify your language, you'll slow down and bring people along. But eights are the type that if they give you something to do, they expect you to do it, and if you don't, they'll take it away from you and do it themselves, um, real quickly. So eights are um, not eights get each other so we're not offended. We, we like the directness of how you talk to one another directly when, and can get underneath real quickly and not be offended by it. But eights can offend other people if they're not aware of how they're coming across. Like I can't tell you how many times my husband will say do you know what you just sounded like and I'll go. Oh, I'm so sorry, we don't mean to.
Speaker 4It's just the way it comes out so quickly.
Speaker 3Yes, yes.
Speaker 4Yes, do you want to add?
Speaker 5anything about AIDS. Um, you mentioned the fear of vulnerability and and I think even just making that connection, that they move so quickly and are so focused on, kind of um, maintaining a sense of control and getting the job done, and that is a self-protective mechanism right. Like that's a self-defense that keeps them from really being able to connect with themselves and and connect with others. Right, it's that kind of that is true.
Speaker 4And in fact I'm glad you brought that up, because eight, nines and ones, those are the types that are in the gut instinctual triad. Those types are most concerned with power and control, and that is why anger is the most familiar emotion for all three of those types. Now they manage that anger differently. Eights tend to be more explosive and say it like it is, and so that's why, when something happens, they feel it in the body. They're real, connected to what the feelings in the body are. So, whether it's a tummy ache over something, a headache over something, a shoulder strain, something is intuitively going on that they need to be aware of because they're feeling it in their body. And so eights are oriented towards the future and, like I said, they don't tend to look back, which means not all eights are great at keeping up relationships of chapters in their life in the past, not because they don't dearly love those people, but because there's people in the future that they're they're having to move towards Right, and so power and control is that that thing that most drives the eights, nines and ones. So, but the power and control is so important to these three numbers we all have a need for.
Enneagram Nines and Compassion in Teams
Speaker 4Power and control is so important to these three numbers? We all have a need for power and control, we all have a need for connections and relationship. We all have a need for safety and security, right, but we have a dominant need, depending on what your type is, and this is the dominant need of the eights Makes sense. So, moving on to the nines, our last number that we're going to talk about, these are called the peacekeepers and nines, interestingly enough, have a connection to anger, but you don't see it so much Because nines manage their anger by pushing it down, by suppressing their anger, because nines have a desire to not have their inward peace disrupted, and having to deal with things that bother them disrupt their inner peace, and so nines tend to go through life like this where fours have these emotions like this, nines have their emotions like this so nines are totally steady and fours are peaking and valleys.
Speaker 3Yes, lots of back and forth.
Speaker 4Right, yes, yes, and the nines have a disconnect of knowing who they are and knowing what they want, of knowing who they are and knowing what they want. It's much easier to ask a nine what they don't want, because they can identify that better than asking them what they want. So if you're going to go to dinner, don't ask a nine where do you want to go to dinner? There's way too big of a question. They have no idea, but you can start narrowing it down for them. Do you want Asian food? Do you want Mexican food? Do you want that? Okay, now we've landed on Asian food, here's three picks. You know, and I will force.
Speaker 4We have all of the types in our family because our family is so large, we get to practice with every type practice with every time, and I will force our nines to make decisions, because they could easily just acquiesce to what the group wants or what the other person wants.
Speaker 5Right and and they ultimately believe their voice doesn't really matter that much for a nine. A lot of times they have this mentality of I mean, if I wasn't there it wouldn't really make a difference, it wouldn't matter, which sounds sad to some of us, but to them that's not necessarily this like depressing, sad thing. I think it actually kind of lets the pressure off a little bit right, like if I can believe, it doesn't really matter if I show up or not show up. That allows me to keep my inner peace. Nines are in the withdrawing stance and so that means they go inward right and the, the types in the withdrawing stance, they really do struggle to acknowledge the impact that they have on others because, again, they live inside Right.
Speaker 3Exactly, exactly, it's interesting because each there's a group, there's groupings, as you all have pointed out there's the internalizing group, there's the externalizing group and then there's the group of trying to figure out the balance of the internal, external and what they're trying to achieve with all of that. And I think the beauty again, this is a tool is that I think a lot of times when we look at a tool and we see a static well, I am an eight, I am a three, I am a seven, I am a whatever we think, well, I'm stuck there. Well, I'm a seven, I don't do pain, so I'm not going to go to that. I'm an eight, I deal in realism. That hurt, sorry, that's the truth. I'm a three. Well, I'm achieving Sorry, that doesn't matter to me, you know. Or I'm a six, hey, I want to be safe. So if that impacts you in a negative way, sorry, I'm a six. And I do see people use it this way where it is an immovable theme in their life.
Speaker 3But I think where the health of the Enneagram comes in is is this is a starting point of exploration and curiosity. Now, how do I move beyond? I didn't intend to hurt you. Let me say that softer. Whoa, that is painful. I need to sit in that with you. I don't want to, but I'm going to because that's what's best for both of us. You know that's there an achievement and an efficiency. Well, intimacy doesn't lend itself to efficiency. Therefore, I need to sit in an intimate moment because efficiency could really drive the intimacy out of this, but I know that intimacy has its place as well. So it's that moving through that, I think, is a starting point as a tool, not a static point, that's right, that's right, and not to wear your type as a badge of honor.
Speaker 4Right and never to beat one another up because well, I, you know, you do this because you're this or to justify. Well, I do this because that's just who I am I'm an eight. That's just arrogant and unproductive and unbeneficial, right. And so the beauty, like you said, is moving underneath to recognize.
Speaker 4wow this is my way of being, but it's not the most beneficial way of being for me and can I grow out of that and until we get to that place of being honest with the reality of of who we are in our false self? That's really where we meet jesus so deeply too, because we find that jesus meets us there and he's not judging us. He knows how that developed and formed to survive in the world he wants to.
Speaker 3In the world he wants to walk with us out of that strong stronghold into a place of freedom and liberation Right.
Speaker 4And authenticity.
Speaker 3Yeah, I love that. And so you all have taken the Enneagram and thank you for going through all the numbers, because it gives us a foundation for which for which for me to ask this next question. So you all have taken the enneagram and you utilize it with teams, and so what's been your experience with that? How is that? What does that look like?
Speaker 5it's really fun.
Speaker 5First of all, it's really fun, um, I think I think one of the coolest parts of it is helping people to see themselves in a more honest light for the purpose of having compassion and understanding.
Speaker 5And again, this invitation of you don't have to stay stuck in how you've been functioning and operating, but within the context of a system, whether it's a family or a team, um, where where we've seen a lot of really just neat things happen or conversations, is when, when the people in that space begin to understand each other and see each other in a more honest light, right, and kind of like some of the examples you gave you, you begin to let certain experiences go and it doesn't feel so personal because you actually understand the motivation, right, or at least have space to be curious about what the motivation might be and to explore that.
Speaker 5But also it gives a lot of insight into how to move towards those individuals, those individuals, um, and then finally, in a work setting which we've worked with, a lot of um, of businesses and stuff is uh, kind of even like the roles that each person plays in that team and you know, is this the best fit as far as the role or job description, um, and you know maybe when their boss or manager is is having to have a difficult conversation. This gives so much direction and freedom to have those conversations in a really productive, effective way. Right.
Speaker 4Some of our businesses we've worked with have, after we've gone in and people have identified their type, they'll put on their outside their office door their name with their type and um, and again, it's not because we're putting you in that box, it's giving people an understanding of a deeper part of how you see the world. And then when I come in and have a conversation with you and I remember, oh yeah, you're seven, then I can shift and expand my own understanding and even communicate differently, because the way we solve problems, the way we have conversations and having to have hard conversations, we can adapt that to the person's style. Now, that takes a lot of work, it's not going to be a one time thing. We can adapt that to the person's style of.
Speaker 4Now that takes a lot of work, it's not going to be a one-time thing, but then when you use that in families because we've done it with families also, and they begin to understand their children or the spouses understand each other, you really are opening the door to a different way of communicating and a different way of understanding. But again, like your work, it takes a lot of self-awareness. It takes intentionality and attentionality to be able to do the work. So for some people, the Enneagram is just kind of a fun thing to learn about and they never do anything with it. Some people, the Enneagram is just kind of a fun thing to learn about and they never do anything with it. And for others, they want to live out of who Jesus says they are the truth of their being and not the egoic way of our being.
Speaker 3What a beautiful service to offer, because you're offering a tool. Because I'm thinking about like a couple, and if you have like, say, a six and a seven that end up together as a husband and a wife, you have someone who is always preparing for the negative, someone who's always living for the positive, and there could either be a whole lot of symbiosis there, right, that could go positive or negative, but there also could be some explosiveness there that does not go towards the positive and understanding from where they're coming, that there's a, there could be a lot of freedom, right. Or if you have, say, a two and a seven who get together, you, the two, would be so oriented to the seven, and the seven being oriented to themselves. There's that space of like do you just take right, and so, again, it's that, it's, you know, an an eight being with a nine.
Speaker 5I'm happy to tell you how the world needs to look Right and the nine's happy to let you take charge.
Speaker 4And in unhealth, that's what we do, right, you know.
Speaker 3And having that roadmap of something that is not only an understanding but a space to begin exploration. I mean, because you know I think about. In any realm, I don't care what your number is. If someone says go paint the universe, that's overwhelming, yeah. But if somebody says hey, I want you to start here, I want you to explore this area, I want you to see what you think, what resonates with you. Even the tool itself is self-discovery.
Speaker 4Right, right, brilliant, yeah. And I think the other great thing about the Enneagram is it is a tool of self-discovery and in our egoic way of being, it's so much easier to see the flaws in others, to want to blame others and not to look inward at the self. But once we do, once we take ownership, once we start doing the work, even the things that others do that maybe used to really bother us or annoy us start to be more minimal and diminish the impact that others ways of being used to impact us in a big in.
Speaker 4Exactly one of my favorite things that I kind of discovered this year is where I can't remember whether it's Matthew mark I'm sorry I don't have the address for it but where the man comes to Jesus at this it might have been the parable of the sheep and the goats and they come to Jesus and he says get away from me, I don't know you. And they said but I did this in your name and I did this for you and I did this for you. And it seems so harsh what Jesus is saying Get, I did this for you and I did this for you.
Speaker 4And it seems so harsh what Jesus is saying Get away from me. I don't even know you Right and what I learned this year, and I don't know where I heard this or discovered this, but it was Jesus saying you're coming to me in your false self. I don't know the false self. I know the true self that I created and that's how you come to me, that's who you are, that's who I made you to be, and it is beautiful and it is perfect and it is lovely, and we keep trying to perform our way through this world and prove things, and we don't need to do any of that with him.
Speaker 3Yeah, prove things, and we don't need to do any of that with him. Yeah, and what a beautiful space it could be that we would have a community where we didn't have to do that with each other. Yeah, not to say that we could live out of a place of being reckless, but that we could also. But that we could live authentically and say, yeah, that that is me, but I also need to consider you, and that we have space for each other, that we could allow ourselves to grow in authenticity, and that would that would be following. What his whole plan was for us is to live authentic, to live out of our true sense of who we are. And it's so beautiful that you all offer this to corporations, to businesses, to families, and what a what a beautiful service and what a wonderful tool. So thank you for coming and sitting down with me to talk about this, and every time we talk about this, I feel like I always learn something, so thank you.
Speaker 4Thank you, it is a blast. It's so much fun. We feel like we're sevens when we're doing it.
Speaker 2I love it. If you found value in our discussion and wish to uncover more about the fascinating world of mental wellness, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes, where Dr Long will continue to delve into empowering therapies and strategies for mental wellness. Your journey to understanding and embracing mental health is just beginning and we're excited to have you with us every step of the way. Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to celebrate restored freedom as you uncover it. Thank you.
.png)
.png)
