Anonymous: I Wasn't Defending My Point, I Was Defending My Sanity (part 2 of 2)

This is a return conversation with a guest we heard from once before, a mom who came in to talk through a parenting moment and uncovered something much bigger about herself.

It starts small, an argument in the car with her son over something as silly as a golf shirt. But it slowly unravels into something deeper. The discovery that she has been looking for outside validation just to trust her own memory. And the moment she recognizes that when her reality feels challenged, what she is actually defending is her own groundedness.

Through it all, one question anchors the conversation. Where am I in this? That question is the starting line, and the bigger the moment, the harder it can be to find.

You will also hear a conversation about mind reading, the habit of assuming we know what someone else is thinking and reacting as if it is true. And how patterns formed long ago still show up today in moments that seem to have nothing to do with the past.

If you have ever fought harder than the moment called for, needed someone else to confirm your version of events, or found yourself defending your sanity instead of your point, this conversation will likely resonate.

Get Dr. Lee Long's book WAIT, Where Am I in This here: https://tinyurl.com/mtfm6bh8

The WAIT, Let's Talk About That with Dr. Lee Long podcast is intended solely for general informational purposes and does not represent the practice of medicine, therapeutic and psychiatric services, nursing, or other professional health care services. It also does not constitute the provision of medical, therapeutic or psychiatric advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is established. The information on this podcast and any materials linked from it are used at the user's own risk. The content provided through this podcast should not be considered a replacement for professional medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It is important that users do not ignore or postpone seeking medical, therapeutic, or psychiatric advice for any health or mental health condition they might have, and should always consult with their health care professionals regarding such conditions.

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Transcript

Finding The Start Line In Conflict

SPEAKER_01 0:01

This is brilliant because what you're doing here is you're saying, okay, I was losing myself in the conversation. I paused, I found myself, I didn't like where I was. Now the key, because this question, wait, where am I in this is the start line. Welcome to Wait, let's talk about that, a podcast where real people work through real moments live and anonymous. I'm Dr. Lee Long.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

And I'm Lila Pond. Today we're welcoming back a guest that you've met before, a mom in the thick of it with her teenagers. Whew. And this time she brings us a moment a lot of us will recognize standing in the middle of an argument and suddenly not being sure what she's even arguing for.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I mean, conflict has a momentum of its own. I mean, we can be three sentences deep into a disagreement before we ever stop to ask whether we actually know where we are in the conflict and if we're showing up in a way that we intended.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Well, that's where the wait method comes in. Where am I in this? That one question that lets you put a hand on the wheel and slow the whole thing down.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Our guest today is staying anonymous. And today it's about what happened when she stopped, found her bearings, and realized the argument wasn't taking her anywhere that she wanted to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Oh, that is so good and so powerful. So before you win the fight, you didn't need to have let's talk about that.

What This Show Is And Is Not

SPEAKER_01 1:49

As a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It's not therapy and does not create a client-counselor relationship. You confirm?

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Awesome. Okay. Well, thanks for coming back.

SPEAKER_04 2:04

Yes, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

So last time you were here, you kind of talked through a parenting. I don't want to call it an issue, but a parenting situation. Yes. And what what I thought was interesting was in the moment you felt all of this frustration. And you also found that you asked yourself a variation of the question, where am I in this? And you realized, wait, this isn't my issue. This will be his. And you said we had a decently successful morning where I wasn't upset. I didn't raise my voice. It didn't end in a calamity. And we moved through it. There was also comments though about how you found yourself losing yourself when it came to discussions, like not discussions with your dad, but reaching out to him. And I'm just curious, talk to me about like where did you find yourself hearing it back? Where do you find yourself in each moment? And how do you see asking yourself this question? How do you see yourself showing up in different scenarios?

Catching Yourself Faster In Real Life

SPEAKER_05 3:19

It's interesting because now asking myself that question, and now having seen your book, read, starting to read your book, haven't admittedly got through it all. It's like I am stopping myself way more, way faster. And it's like everything, and not in a bad way, like where I'm upset or depressed about it, but I'm like, it's me. Like I need to take a breath and be like, okay, am I calm? Can I talk about this situation? Or, you know, I'll ask myself, what was my action before any of this? And I'm also, I would say, more verbal.

The Car Argument That Got Weird

SPEAKER_05 3:59

So for example, with my son, I could catch myself getting frustrated and losing myself and then and like getting upset and being, and I'll say, I'll tell him, I have to stop talking about this right now because I don't know why, but I'm getting really upset about it. Like I am getting heated and I don't think there's actually a good reason for it. And he'll be like, okay, like he doesn't know what to do with that information. And I'll take a few breaths, like this happened in the car yes just yesterday, and it was so silly. Lee, it was literally he was saying something about his sister always wearing or not wearing a poloed shirt when she golfs. Like it was so silly. And I know she does, she knows she does. And we were both talking to him about it, and he was just, and I go, Why are you rage baiting right now? And he's like, I'm not. And we were just and I go, okay, I actually have to stop. I don't know why, but this is bothering me. And again, like I think to that example, it's because I in my heart felt like I was right and I wanted to be right, and I'm battling this kid to be right in the car.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

About a shirt.

SPEAKER_05 5:17

About a shirt. And I was like, this is ridiculous. This doesn't like I need to be more mature about this situation.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Okay, okay, but but okay, this is brilliant. I love this, but let's let's look at it rather than judging it. Because is it fair for me to assume that you're judging it when you say I need to be more mature about this?

SPEAKER_05 5:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Okay, so if we could step away from judgment and we could look at it and say, wait, why am I, why am I so pissed off right about this conversation? What would you say was there?

SPEAKER_05 5:49

Like, as far as what do you like, what do you mean what was there?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Well, when you see that you've you've perceived that this comment was rage baiting, where were you in that moment? What did that spark? And you're like, it sparked anger.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

Yeah. I mean, I this literally didn't know why. I mean, that's why I brought up like I have to stop talking about it because it was silly, in my opinion. Okay, that like whether I was right or wrong, right, that I was having that argument, I guess. And so judging if I was like why I was angry or why okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yes, the topic may be unimportant, right? But it's interesting that we're going to silly because it sparked a real big reaction for you, correct?

SPEAKER_05 6:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Okay, this is brilliant because what you're doing here is you're saying, okay, I was losing myself in the conversation. I paused, I found myself, I didn't like where I was. Now the key, because this question, wait, where am I in this is the start line. You've run a bunch of races. I've run a bunch of races. The bigger the race, the harder the start line is to find, correct? I mean, this past year's turkey trot, I think I took 30 minutes to find where I was supposed to be. Right. And it's the turkey trot. Much less like New York Marathon. Right. Now, Missoula, the second one I ran, was very easy to find the start line. Missoula, yeah. But you found your start line of, oh, I'm really pursuing this because I want to be right. There's

Why Being Right Feels Like Sanity

SPEAKER_01 7:26

a start line. Now, where do we go? Why is this bugging me? Why is being right something that's so important to me?

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Well, like thinking about it just as you were repeating it, it's one of those things that I think too in other situations where you have to recall something. Recalling is so hard. Like I can recall that I did something, said something, and sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not true. And I think that's for everyone. I don't think that's just me. But like there are instances where I feel like I'm going crazy because I know that I did that, or I put the key there, or you know, and so it's like I'll get defensive when someone is saying, like, well, no, that's not correct and that's not right. Or, you know, what are you defending? And then I guess I tie it to my sanity, like my mental capacity to remember. And I'm like, oh, and I I think like I don't want to be, I mean, I don't know who really wants to be wrong, you know, fair point. And when you're kind of married to someone who's always right, that's another one.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Like who's always right or always believes they're right.

SPEAKER_05 8:45

Always believes they're right.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 8:47

And so for something like the polo conversation, it was like, I knew hands down that we were right, or my daughter and I were right. And he's just arguing for the sake of arguing, which we do a lot of. And I'm trying not to do that with him.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Which I think that's so spot on. But it's interesting because you said he's arguing for the sake of arguing. You know this because he said so.

SPEAKER_05 9:14

No. And that's why the the question of like, why are you rage baiting? Because that's like a term right now that's really popular with the kids, and he'll say it to me. And so it was more out of the like kind of using his lingo for what I felt was the argument. Because again, why on the morning commute, first thing in the morning, are we even talking about this? You know, going back and forth on this, like, why was it important to him? Maybe for the same reasons, you know, maybe he wants to have something right that to win the day. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Because one of the things that I was thinking is when you were saying you argue to be right, because it sounds to me like you're saying, I'm defending my sanity. I'm defending my what feels like a very ungrounded or untethered moment. I'm tethering back to what I know is my reality. And I'm curious if there's space in there to see that maybe he's doing the same thing as opposed to you just like to argue. You know what I'm saying? Like right.

SPEAKER_05 10:19

And I think that was part of the question or part of the conversation was I was just like, hey, what's going on? Like, why are you? And in a kid way, you know, why are you rage baiting right now? And he's just like, I'm not. Like he kind of cut it off. And then when I was like, I just need to stop talking about it, I mean, we all sat in silence. And then, you know, and a couple breaths later, we're all fine. And he was even making reference to a car, a model of a car he saw on the highway. And, you know, so like we got over it probably quicker than we would have if we would have just kept grinding that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Because the fight doesn't become about the shirt. Right. The fight quickly escalated to I need to protect my sanity. We don't know what he was protecting. Right. And you see how quickly when we lose ourselves in a moment, how quickly it spins off into a whole different absolutely. It's a different topic, but it's about we champion that topic, kind of we the flag we hold for that topic, what lives behind it is what we're really fighting for. Is that a fair way to say that?

SPEAKER_05 11:29

I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

And so what I think is super interesting is that you're seeing I need to slow down and find myself on the map and recognize what's pushing me forward. Oh, I'm fighting for my sanity, and I'm air quoting that and nobody can see that, but I'm fighting for this groundedness. But my question to you and everyone is can you determine, like can you find groundedness in you? What I mean is saying, I know she wears a polo. I I know that whether that is agreed upon externally or not, I know. Now, what I'm not saying is that we we live in a way where we don't allow people to give us feedback. Where it's like, well, nope, I know that's true, and you don't get to speak into my life, so buzz off. It's not that, uh-huh, but it's in a moment where you you look at it and say, I am not willing to fight my son for groundedness to tether me back to what I know is true. Therefore, I can look at this and say, you might be right. But the way I finish the sentence in my head is, and you may not be. But I know my experience, there it is. Does that make sense? Yes.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

And I think that's part of when I was getting so worked up and frustrated. I could have been frustrated with myself as well for letting this even get me agitated in the first place. Because you're right. I don't think I have, I think I do need the validation from someone else to tell me that I am also right. If I know that, and I am saying I've been wrong before in uh when I've like fought for something hard. Sure. We have and I guess, you know, so nobody loves that feeling. But this instance, it's like, okay, I can recall, I know, and I should have like in my head, I'm like, just be okay with that. But I think him continuously talking and then the kids are arguing in the back of maybe that was another thing that was I was just like, oh, I just don't want to start my day right now with this argument. And it was just and that and to say silly, the topic, you know, it really was silly.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 13:51

Yeah, it's a you know, add in then my daughter's kind of attitude, which I don't like her to be angry or upset with her brother. You know, her tone to him is not nice, like in an instant like that when she's just like, I know I do, you know, and so I don't like to hear that. I want them to be kind to each other, speak kindly, and then I don't want him to feel like I'm siding with her. And it was all just like this just needs to stop right now.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Everything

Control Versus Influence With Kids

SPEAKER_01 14:21

can I point something out though? Sure. Is how much of what you were hearing in the car was inside of you and how much of it was outside of you? Uh-huh. Does that make sense what I mean by that?

SPEAKER_05 14:31

Uh-huh. How much?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:33

It was probably more internal than external.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

But it made all your feelings were internal.

SPEAKER_05 14:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

But your, I don't want them to argue. How much control do you have over that? You're right. Zero. Uh-huh. I don't want her to speak unkindly to her brother. How much control do you have over that? Yeah. Zero. I don't want him to keep talking about it. How much control do you have over that? Zero. Now, don't hear the word control as a oh, and now you're saying I'm controlling. No, no. And I wish I had a better word for it, power. But then people go, oh, so you think I'm power hungry? No. No.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

I am we.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

But what I hear you saying in all of this is there's all this external stuff that is provoking all this other stuff in me. And I do have influence over it. And so how do I move through influence when I've got two kids chirping at each other in the backseat? And it's going against the tenets or the principles in which I want to raise them. And how do I influence that? And what I love is that, yeah, you chirped back, right? It's the morning. We're going to chirp. We're not going to be perfect at this. I mean, just a few weeks ago, I looked at my wife and I said, Hey, why did you do this? You know any sentence that starts with you that is not followed by a glowing review of whoever you're speaking to is likely going to provoke defensiveness. Right. Fair?

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Yes, fair.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

And I heard myself saying this and I was like, oi. And I sat there and I played it back in my head, and I thought, and I said to her, I said, I played that back in my head. And I I really sounded like a jerk. I said a different word.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I said a donkey. In a different form. I said, I'm really sorry. That's not cool of me to come at you. Because I took a minute to find what was going on inside of me. I was stressed. And she had done something that the result was provoking a so like a tremendous amount of stress for me. But she didn't have all the details. She was trying to be helpful. And we were able to talk it through then. But I had to come from my position, not demand that she change whatever I had decided was her position. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so you think about okay, your kids are chirping at each other in the backseat, and you're thinking, what, I don't want to start my day like this. Fair? Mm-hmm. That's what I thought I heard you say. Yeah. I don't want this for their relationship. So how do I find myself in the midst of it? And what I heard you say is, I realize this is probably silly. Again, I'm air quoting and people can't see, but it's silly in the sense that the golf shirt, the polo, doesn't need to set us off like this. But what I love is that you found okay, I want to be right here. I really want not right, I want to tether to my sanity. So let's move on. And the beautiful thing is your influence of saying, I can't talk about this right now, what happened?

SPEAKER_05 17:53

Then they were quiet and we probably reflected on their own and hopefully they just moved on.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Well, they moved on. They didn't. Whether they reflected on their own, I don't know. But that would sure be an interesting thing if it's appropriate to not necessarily now, maybe now, but to go back over that with them and go, hey, what was that like for y'all? What were you thinking in that moment? What were you feeling in that moment? What did you believe and what were you experiencing?

Four Questions To Slow Down

SPEAKER_01 18:20

So see, those are the four questions that I hope people start to understand is what am I thinking right now? What am I feeling right now? What am I believing and what am I experiencing? Because what you were thinking is, this sucks. What you felt was frustration running up to anger. What you believed was this is calling into question my sanity for you. And what you were experiencing was a whole lot of chaos in a morning you didn't want. But once you found all of that, what'd you do?

SPEAKER_04 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

You set a limit. Because there's a pattern that we all live in. And if it's I don't want my reality, I'm gonna change it from sanity to reality. I don't want my reality to always be in question.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Right. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

And if you see that pattern that keeps coming up, we loop in those patterns. And asking that question, where am I in this moment? Oh, my reality is in question. But is it in question for me? Yes. Didn't find it. If the answer is no, then it's like, can I settle into my reality and tether back to me? Then have the conversation of really you believe that she does not wear a polo-collared shirt. I am so confused by that. And you have the conversation from a place of tethering instead of a place of what do I tie down to? It's the difference between sailing a boat in a nice, gentle wind and a monsoon.

SPEAKER_05 19:57

And I think that's the cool part about all of this is that I generally do go so fast and I rush through thinking. I'll rush through talking so much that my speech does not make sense. And I know it doesn't. And my son is that way too. I mean, and we sometimes joke that we glitch, like we just are, what just happened?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

That's funny.

SPEAKER_05 20:21

And my husband has dealt with it for years and years and years. And he is so he is uh just more cautious, not cautious, patients lower with his thinking and and his responses, which sometimes frustrates me, but I get why. And I've realized just over time that I also need to slow down that process and slow down that thinking. And it has helped with conversations like that, like that example, but just in relates to my other life as well, other parts of my life as well. Right. Um,

How Chaos Shapes Our Patterns

SPEAKER_05 20:56

so I do, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

You know what I find interesting too is when these patterns show up, it's a beautiful tell for ourselves to ask. It's a beautiful tell of this came from somewhere. And a lot of times when we grow up in chaos, I don't know if you grew up in chaos or not.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

But a lot of times when we grow up in chaos, we're looking for groundedness. Especially if we grew up in chaos that constantly overlooked our opinions, our experiences. And knowing that, like knowing that this pattern comes from somewhere, we have this ability, this mindset. Rather than saying, oh, it's because my parents were just terrible.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

I don't accept that. Right. And maybe a parent is terrible because there are some terrible parents, but I don't accept that as so your parent was terrible, therefore you get to limp along for the rest of your life. Then let's make your limp cool, man.

SPEAKER_05 21:58

I would say, like, I don't. don't like you said there's different chaoses and it can it's not just parents but I also feel like you have to I mean I moved out very young and so like at certain point I really can't blame my parents for everything that you know that I do. And so I've really believed like I love this stuff. I love working on myself as far as my coping skills, communication skills, just education for everything. And so again that's why I love practices like these that help me be help me take situations and improve my response. And I want that for my kids too. Like so when I told them for example this situation and I was like I'm not sure what's working me up right now or you know and I I said I'm gonna take a breath and I'm I just can we stop talking about this right now. And they were all just like okay or they both were like okay you know hopefully they see me working through things like this and can do it for themselves as they mature.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

An interesting close of that loop if you choose and this is totally a suggestion of whether this fits your style or not it might be interesting to go back to them and say hey guys remember when I shut that conversation down because it was working me up and I didn't I couldn't realize I couldn't figure out in the moment why I figured it out. If you want to know more I'm happy to share yeah I'm happy to tell you because they may want to they may not right and and and neither one is a good or bad response from them. But I think that understanding I believe beyond think I believe with all my soul that understanding our patterns gives us power over ourselves instead of looping through something that is like a weather pattern that ran over us when we were kids or ran ran over us, I don't mean like took us down. I just mean right wore a trail on us. Right. Right it just created a groove and in that groove we tend to lean into it we tend to to run in that in that groove right and as we do that we find ourselves in a place that we thought we grew out of is defending my my reality because as a little kid if I have to defend my reality I don't know if I have a strong reality yet I really am looking to the environment to to show me and to validate yeah no baby girl that's right but then as I grow am I grounded in my reality does that make sense and so the more that I see that pattern and the more that I say oh I know where that's coming from but I'm not I'm gonna choose to groove a different path those patterns will still draw us but they will not consume us. Right.

Breaking The Loop And Modeling It

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So basically what I'm saying to you is you just broke a pattern in that moment saying I'm getting worked up here I don't know why but I'm gonna stop participating and I'm asking you both to stop as well. The good news is they both complied yep you settled your nervous system and you moved on.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

And did you have a good day that I did have a good day.

SPEAKER_05 25:19

I love that and I will follow up because I think it is interesting and I and I am um I guess grounded enough in myself to take both answers and be like oh you don't want to okay thank you okay or if you want to cool we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah because I do I think that you know like I said as parents we do groove a path for them and with them. Whether that's a phenomenal path or not remains to be seen until they become the adults that they become. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_03 25:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

But again I my philosophy is never to blame I think the blame and faults are the B word and the F word and we don't speak that way but I do think it's understanding the influence and then moving out of that influence and saying I want to go a different direction. Does that make sense? And so it's like it's an empowerment like this whole thing finding where you are on the map understanding that we believe we have control over things that we don't have control over. We live in patterns that we largely are unaware of we read people's minds all the time meaning we assume we know what somebody else is thinking and we act as if and we don't know our original language is what I would I say. But in that original language what I mean is is how were we designed? Because some people grow up in chaos and they become very orderly other people grow up in chaos and they become very distracted by anything chaotic. Right? Or they go create chaos themselves. And what I've heard from you is I create order so that I know I'm safe that's what I got from our last conversation and what I'm hearing from you here. Yeah is I create order to know that I am safe and when someone is poking at that order that safety gets threatened therefore my reality is challenged and I want I'm go I'm coming for you. Yeah because you're gonna stop it. Right. But the key is in what you did that morning was no I'm gonna stop because I'm not gonna participate and I'm gonna request with great influence that you not participate as well.

SPEAKER_04 27:41

Yeah. Win I love it.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Win what a win thank you yeah thank you for that yeah well I love how you're you're living out the print these principles in finding you on the start line and then moving from that start line to get to where you want to be which is calm cool and collected operating at a nice steady as athletes would say zone two pace. Exactly that it's a space of just saying like I can very conversational. Yes yeah I love it. Yeah cool. You got anything else I don't think so I think that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 28:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Thank you so much for coming back in to talk through another layer of what comes up when you find yourself in situations. So when you stop and ask wait where am I in this and you find a pattern that starts to illuminate then what do you do? You deal with a pattern. So thank you for letting us walk through that example to show how you can step out of pattern loops.

SPEAKER_05 28:47

Awesome. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Thanks for

The Question To Sit With

SPEAKER_00 28:50

helping that's our time for today and thank you to our guests for coming back and being so honest about the middle of the moment not just the tidy end of it.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

And listen if something here landed sit with the question that started us off where am I in this where you are so you can slow down and ask whether this conversation is even going somewhere worth going.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

This has been Wait. Let's talk about that with Dr.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Lee Long and Lila Pond take care of yourself and take care of your people.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

And we'll see you next time