016 - Instead of Choosing, Try Combining with Andrew Cross

In this week's episode, I talk to Andrew Cross, he shares his journey of discovering his passion for the outdoors and how it has played a role in his relationship with Christ. Andrew also discusses his experience of ministry burnout and the valley season he went through. He shares how the outdoors provided healing and inspiration during that time. Finally, he reflects on the merging of his personal and ministry life and the ongoing process of finding balance. In this conversation, Andrew Cross shares his journey of finding purpose in both ministry and the outdoor industry. He emphasizes the importance of not having to choose between the two, but rather finding a way to combine them.

Stay in touch with Andrew on Instagram and check out his Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@Desert.Drifter
https://www.instagram.com/across_thewest/

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Transcript

So thanks so much for being with us today, Andrew.

Andrew Cross (00:05)
Yeah, thanks for having me, Kenzie.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (00:12)
So I know I told the listeners a little bit about you already, but why don't you go ahead and just share a little bit about yourself and who you are.

Andrew Cross (00:19)
Yeah, so I, you know, I feel like the first question people ask is, well, where are you from? I get that a lot, you know, with what I do for work. I'm a hiking backpacking guide. We'll probably talk more about that later, but, you know, I'm always like, I don't, I don't really know. Like I genuinely don't know where I'm from. I grew up in a military family. I think by the time I was like midway through high school, I had lived like eight or nine different places. And, um, I was born in North Carolina. If anybody.

cares about that, but I don't have a whole lot of ties there. And then now, I'm 35 now, I think I recently counted, I've had an address 16 different places. So it's about every two years on average to move. So currently I live in Grand Junction, Colorado. My wife and I moved here back in the fall. But yeah, where I'm from, I don't know. So I kind of have that military background.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (01:01)
Wow.

Andrew Cross (01:17)
you know, not that I was in the military, but my dad was that rambling wanderlust that I think once it's in your blood, it's kind of hard to get out. What I do currently, yeah, so I've kind of had, I guess in in a career realm as well. I don't know that I've ever had a career. Number one, I've had a number of jobs, but yeah, careers, I guess I've.

I served as a youth pastor for about six years, so I was in full -time ministry. I got a master's at divinity, and obviously, like, faith is still, you know, a key part of my life. But for, yeah, just some various reasons that we'll probably end up talking about at some point in this episode. Yeah, I'm not in full -time ministry, you know, in terms of like, that's my job, you know, that's my vocation. And yeah, I'm working,

part -time as a ski instructor this winter at Telluride. I've been hiking and guiding, hiking and backpacking trips for about the last five years out West in Utah, Wyoming and Arizona. So that's, oh, I should say I got married about two and a half years ago. My wife would be very upset if I forgot to mention her. So we don't have any kids yet.

But yes, I'm married happily. My wife is a speech pathologist and so she's got the real career. I always joke she's the sugar mama and I'm figuring out my way what I want to be when I grow up.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (02:56)
You

Absolutely. And you just launched a YouTube channel. Tell us a little bit about that.

Andrew Cross (03:06)
I did.

Yeah, the YouTube channel is called Desert Drifter. I've always had an interest in history. That was actually what I majored in in college. I went to Virginia Tech. Going to, if anybody knows anything about Virginia Tech or tech school, I mean, tech schools are generally focusing on tech. And most of my friends at Virginia Tech were engineers and.

You know sometimes like in the business school, but a lot of engineering there and I was the lowly history major Which I just wanted to study something that I liked and at the time I actually had thought that I might work with the National Park Service at some of the historical sites, but anyways the channel sort of is a combination of my love of the desert southwest my love of

history, particularly the history of that region, and then outdoor adventure. And so far, so good. There's people watching it and we'll kind of see where that goes. I don't identify as like, I'm a YouTuber. I'm 35, YouTube didn't really come around until I was probably in college, I think. So I know I talked to some people younger now and it's like,

people aspire to be YouTubers, you know, growing up. And for me, I'm like, yeah, like I sort of am like bashful about it. Like I've posted some videos on a YouTube.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (04:45)
Yeah, no, that's super cool. And I love that you have kind of found a way to incorporate all of your things that you love into one thing. And I love whenever that happens and we can kind of align all of our passions and find that niche that is needed in the community and fulfilling that need. So that's really cool. So I know that you talked about being a hiking and backpacking guide and also being a ski instructor.

Andrew Cross (04:45)
But I'm doing that.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (05:14)
Um, with those kind of, let's talk about outdoor recreation and what that looks like for you being that it's your job, but also doing it in your free time.

Andrew Cross (05:24)
Yeah, so I dabble in a lot of outdoor activities. Obviously I like hiking and backpacking. I generally like when I can combine those things with something like, you know, maybe somebody in a peak or visiting some sort of significant archaeological or historical site or just exploring like new terrain. I love, you know, all the landscapes of the West. And so.

Yeah, hiking and backpacking are big. I love to ski. And so winter time has new meaning for me now that I'm out West and we've got a lot of mountains and skiing out here. I dabble a little bit in some cross -country skiing, but yeah, downhill skiing is a bigger passion for sure. I canyoneer, not.

Candineering's grown a lot. I don't know how many of your viewers know that, but if you're like, what's candineering? Basically you go down slot canyons by any means necessary, whether that involves ropes and rappelling or down climbing. So yeah, it's kind of been this small niche sport that has gained more popularity as of late. I do some rock climbing. I guess the one thing I love,

white water rafting. I haven't done a ton of it, but now that I'm in Grand Junction, I'm hoping to get a raft this season and do some of that. So yeah, I guess I'm a, what is the saying? I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. I do a lot of things. I'll gotta be honest, I've never really mountain biked. It scares me. Plain and simple. It just, I can see the appeal of it. It looks like a rush.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (07:12)
Okay.

Andrew Cross (07:20)
But I'm just like, you know, I think I'd rather like take my risks climbing something where I can be a little more like thoughtful than bombing down a mountain with sharp rocks and cactus and things like that.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (07:27)
Yeah.

I totally feel that I have talked about, you know, going mountain biking and have thought about it so many times. And I'm just like, I don't know that I'd be able to get past the point of caution to like have fun with it. Like, I just don't know that it's one of those things that I'd ever be able to like send it. You know, I'm just like, I don't want to end up with a broken wrist or a broken collarbone or, you know, I don't know. I've just seen way too many people get injured with mountain biking that I'm like.

I'm just not sure that that's a sport for me. So I totally understand that. So with all of this guiding and kind of things that you've gotten into growing up all over, but I know specifically, you know, you lived in Virginia and a lot of the East, I think, from what we had talked about, how did you get into these things and kind of when and where did you find this passion for them?

Andrew Cross (08:08)
Totally.

Yeah, so it's a good question. I did grow up, so we kind of grew up all over, but yeah, the majority of my life was on the East Coast, you know, Florida, Virginia, North Carolina, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, places like that. We definitely as a family, like growing up, like fishing was probably my first like love. Truthfully, I was obsessed with.

Fishing, I still enjoy fishing. I guess I didn't mention that. I would say I've allowed some other hobbies to take priority. But the outdoors were always a part of our life as a family growing up. My dad's always loved hiking and backpacking. My mom grew up in Northern Idaho up in the mountains. And so she very much is like an Idaho mountain girl, grew up with horses and all the wild things of the Northwest forests.

And yeah, I would say I thought though, even though I loved fishing, like I said, fishing was my thing, rock climbing, ski, I mean, I hadn't done any of that till really the last five years of my life. I did develop an interest in hiking and backpacking, I'd say once I hit about my mid 20s. Like sure, I would hike with friends before that or with family, but it was just like a means to an end.

You know, I didn't particularly enjoy it. I thought it was like kind of boring. I would say as throughout my mid -20s, particularly as I like was getting into full -time ministry and I was just having the stressors of life and ministry affect me more, I've started to discover that, oh wow, going out and hiking or backpacking, like there's peace there and there's simplicity.

And that began to become more of a priority in my life. I think as life just got more complex that rather than feeling like, oh, I've got to, I've got to hike. If I'm going to hike, like I got to hike to some mountain lake that I can fish or, you know, like rather than having a purpose of like, I've got to get from point A to point B, the journey of getting from point A to point B was what was more important to me. And, you the

the spaces of reflection that created the piece that I felt in my soul. So that was the beginning of, I would say, my interest in hiking and backpacking. So kind of like mid to late 20s. But yeah, a lot of the sports I just rattled off, yeah, probably the last five years, just mostly as I moved out West and kind of found, I mean, in some ways it's like, gosh, I wish I had been doing these my whole life.

You know, maybe I wouldn't, if I had done that, I mean, maybe I wouldn't be enjoying them as much as I am today. Or, you know, maybe I'd take them more for granted. I don't know, but there's definitely times where I do wish that I had found these things earlier.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (11:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, I totally get that because I have that same feeling of I wish I would have found certain things earlier, but you never know if you would have the same love or appreciation for them. But I also just love that you started a lot of these things. I know you said you're 35 and you started them within the last five years. So around the time that you were 30, and I think that there is a lot of people who are scared to start new hobbies as they go into their 30s or just as they get older, they're like, oh, I'm too old. I can't do that.

I didn't learn that when I was a kid, so I just think they have that mindset. And I'm just like, no, you can learn any new hobby at any age. It doesn't matter. It's never too late. As long as you're not scared to be a beginner. I think that that's crippled me in a couple of capacities. I'm not sure if I want to be a beginner at that, because I have friends who are really good at it. But it's like, you've got to start somewhere. So yeah.

Andrew Cross (12:27)
Totally. Yeah, yeah, the fear of failure keeps a lot of people away. Kept me away from it for many years.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (12:34)
Yeah. So living kind of all over the US and getting to travel to a lot of cool places, do you have a favorite spot or a favorite wilderness area that you just really love that just keeps drawing you back?

Andrew Cross (12:50)
I mean, I could definitely identify a top three, but if you want number one, I would say it's the Grand Canyon. The Grand Canyon just, I don't, it's hard to put into words sometimes. I was lucky enough, my wife and I lived in Flagstaff, Arizona for a couple of years and I was able to guide in the Grand Canyon.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (13:01)
Okay.

Okay.

Andrew Cross (13:18)
still go back and guide trips periodically. But I've, yeah, the Grand Canyon, I think what I tell people, I mean, there's some amazing mountains, mountain ranges in Western Wyoming. Like that's another spot, I just love Western Wyoming. And you can, but I guess what I say is, I mean, yeah, they're epic, but you can go, not that I've ever been, but I've seen photos, but you can go to Europe, you can go to the Alps, you can see the Andes, you know, and.

South America, you could like, there are impressive mountain ranges throughout the world. And that doesn't mean what we have in the US is any less impressive, but like there's literally no other spot in the world like the Grand Canyon. Like it's just plain and simple. And sometimes people are blown away. I mean, a lot of times people are blown away by it up on the rim. And, but what I, I think I tell people is like, you've got,

to get down into the Grand Canyon and experience it down in the depths. And particularly once you get off of like the main popular trails and you get out into some of the more rugged areas and you're just like, I mean, the beauty is unbelievable. The ruggedness is unbelievable. It just, it just makes, I feel like it just, you see God in it because it's so big. It's so hard to wrap your head around.

And yeah, I'll stop rambling about the Grand Canyon, but Grand Canyon would be number one.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (14:52)
No, I love it. Okay. Okay. I haven't been so I sounds like I need to make a trip there. It's been on the list as many things have been for a long time, but I always seem to be just like, just far enough away from it. You know, it's like every road trip. It's like I just it'd be like two hours out of the way, you know, or something. But so I need to plan a trip and just go and just do it. So I feel like you just kind of

Andrew Cross (15:18)
Totally.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (15:21)
led a little bit into my next question. So would love for you to elaborate a little bit more on kind of how the outdoors plays a role in your relationship with Christ seen as, you know, the Grand Canyon is one place that you feel like you just really see God. Can you share with us just more about that?

Andrew Cross (15:37)
Yeah, I would say that it sort of evolves, right? Like how the outdoors impacts my spiritual life. It's something that is continuing to evolve. And I think in different seasons, it has a different role, if that makes sense. So, you know, one season that I think we'll get to here in a little bit of, you know, is really like a valley season.

the outdoors was like a place of peace and healing and inspiration to me. And I felt like, I mean, I've felt all of those aspects of God in worship services, in prayer services, you know, maybe listening to like a sermon or something. And so it's not that those things, I've only found them in the outdoors from God, but in that season of my life,

It was hard for me to receive the peace, the inspiration, the healing in other environments, but I found that in creation. It was like the handiwork of God.

you know, he's infused his characteristics and his traits into his creation. And so I was like experiencing those things through the outdoors. I would say currently in my life,

It's a place I find a lot, I mean, I still certainly find peace and inspiration there. But I would say it's more of a place where I can reflect and almost.

You know, I was in a season where there was a lot of healing going on and I feel like I'm sort of coming out of that into more of a place where, you know, I'm planning, like I'm in a, I'm in like a sowing season, you know, sowing and to some degree starting to see some harvest where I want, you know, for a while it was just kind of this like healing rest season. And so now when I'm outdoors, you know, I kind of struggle with anxiety.

and I have a monkey mind and I get outdoors and it's a place where I feel like God gives me clarity. And so whether it's clarity about reflecting my own life, okay, how is, are my words and actions lining up with what I want them to, scriptural principles and stuff. So maybe it's some of that, maybe it's some of, okay, yeah, like what decisions do I make?

for X, Y, or Z. And so, yeah, I think the outdoors will continue to be this key role, or this key piece of my spiritual journey. And I think season to season, it'll kind of vary what role it's exactly playing.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (18:49)
Yeah, absolutely. That truly makes sense. And, you know, there's a season for everything. And I think that's beautiful that you, you know, have have gone through those different seasons and are able to identify those different seasons and adjust, you know, and confirm, I guess, what is going on in each of those seasons. So I think that that's beautiful the way that you shared about that. I'm curious if you have a specific story or just a memory that comes to mind.

in a way that God revealed himself to you in the outdoors or kind of a moment where you feel like he was really with you or spoke to you.

Andrew Cross (19:28)
Yeah, give me a second to think about.

Yeah, I mean, truly there have been many. I think the one that I'll share just because it involves the Grand Canyon, and I had already talked about the Grand Canyon, but I was doing a three week rafting trip through the canyon, maybe it was 2020. So what is that? Four years ago at this point. And I was still very much kind of in this confusion, like season of confusion.

burnout, just trying to figure out, you know, where do I go from here? Where's God in all of this? And we pulled the rafts over one day and I sort of did a solo hike up this canyon in this remote area of the Grand Canyon. Nobody was up there, you know, nobody was around. And as I just walked up, I just began to like sense God's presence. And...

I sat down and I had brought my journal along because I just thought like, you know, maybe I'll sit up there and I'll journal and.

but I'd sort of felt like I'd been at this mental block, and this sort of emotional block too, is probably a better way to put it, for months, if not years at that point. And whereas like, yeah, I felt stuck. And I just began sort of praying and journaling out what I was actually feeling and experiencing. And the core of it was just like,

I was thinking of Jesus's words, like, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden. You know, my yoke is easy, my burden is light. And I was just like, like, Jesus, that hasn't been my experience with you, you know, like that life has felt really challenging as a Christian, you know, particularly as of late, like I sought to serve you and like, you know, as a pastor for years and like that.

That was not light. That was not easy, you know? And so I really was kind of in this raw place and I was like, all right, you know, either like Jesus was lying and this is not true or something within my own sort of personal experience, whether it's the way that I like my own brokenness has led me not to fully experience.

Jesus's promises as he stated they would be. And so I felt like in that moment, there was this kind of crossroads where I could either just say, you know what, this whole like Christianity thing, I don't know, it's just a crock of crap. It's just some other like made up religion to make people like feel good or whatever, however you would wanna explain it away.

And I could have just kind of said, yeah, I'm going to do my own thing, you know, because I feel like I've been lied to and that my life, you know, yeah, like this yoke is not easy and this burden is not light. Or I could say, you know, I don't entirely, I don't really understand why my experience is not lined up with this, but I can continue to take God at his word. I can continue to press into him.

and I can continue to ask him to peel back layers within my own soul that I can explore and figure out, okay, why have I not experienced life as Jesus said? And just continue to walk with him and just say, all right, Lord, I don't get it, but I'm gonna just stubbornly continue to follow you and I ask that you would.

continue to reveal to me and bring me more and more into this place of abundant life. And I mean, in that moment, I was just like, I'm gonna put, it's like poker, not that I play a lot of poker, but it's like, I'm gonna go all in with Jesus. Like, I'm just gonna trust him.

I'm just gonna kind of stubbornly stick it out, you know? And that was a pretty profound moment for me. And that was in the back country of the Grand Canyon.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (24:34)
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And I think that, I think a lot of listeners are going to be able to relate to that because, you know, I do think we, we read things in scripture and that that isn't our experience of our walk with Jesus. And I love what you said about asking the question, not just saying like, oh, Jesus has lying. It's why have I not experienced it this way? And I think that's just.

such an amazing reflection question for all of us. I know I wrote it down as you were saying it. I was like, that's a really, really good reflection journaling thought, you know, thing to do because it's just that I feel like that is, like you said, the crux of a lot of our walks with God is, you know, like, why are we not experiencing it the way that the Bible says? And anyways, that's.

all that I really have to say about that because I think that's just such a good question. And I just thank you so much for sharing that. Because I know that I took a lot away from it. I have a feeling a lot of listeners will take take a lot away from that as well. So I know that you live in, you know, Grand Junction, you're a hiking backpacking guide, you're a ski instructor, you do a lot of things in some super amazing country, beautiful parts of the country. But for someone who

Andrew Cross (25:36)
Yeah.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (25:59)
you know, may live in an urban environment or in a city, what advice would you give to them if they're trying to connect with God through the outdoors, but, you know, live in that more urban environment?

Andrew Cross (26:13)
It's a good question. I would tell them to move. No, I'm just kidding. You know, I would say I have a good friend who lives in Virginia. I mean, I have a lot of still good friends in Virginia, but this one friend in particular, I would say he's taught me, although he's never like, it's just how he lives his life. You know, he's taught me through observation.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (26:20)
Hahaha.

Andrew Cross (26:41)
to appreciate the little things. He lives, I mean, he lives in Richmond, Virginia, just if anybody knows where that is, right? He's not like downtown, it's not like concrete jungle, but it's like suburban America. And he'll notice things in the trees. He'll notice the pattern on a leaf. He'll notice a bird, and oh, that bird comes here like this time of year, like some sort of migrating.

migration season. And so I think like what I'm getting at is wherever you are, there's still some degree of nature and creation around you. Maybe it's not a 14 ,000 foot peak, you know, maybe it's not the Grand Canyon, but I think, I mean, it's easy, like, it's like almost those places make it easy to see God. I think it's probably a greater sign of maturity.

if you can see God in his creation in a city park or a tree in your backyard, excuse me, or a bird that, you know, flies by and lights on your windowsill. And so I think I would probably tell those people, you know, learn, you know, and they might be like, I don't know what kind of bird that is. Like, is it a dove? Is it a robin? Is it a bluebird? Well, it's not blue. It's probably not a bluebird. Like,

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (28:05)
Ha!

Andrew Cross (28:07)
what this friend has done is he's kind of been a study, or he's been a student of the outdoors and of creation. And it's not that like, yes, you have to be this total nerd, but maybe pick up a book about the biology of trees or something. And just like you learn little facts and you begin to realize, you start to look differently at a tree or a plant or a bird.

or a body of water, the more that you learn about how it works or how it lives or how it functions. And I think the more we learn about creation, the more we can see more of God's fingerprints on that. And we really see the interconnectedness of it all that like, wow, we all have the same creator because things that some of the ecosystem does is what we as humans do.

Obviously there are some differences, you know, and I'm not trying to sound all like hippie -dippy here, but you really do see how God made it all and the interconnectedness of it all. So that's probably what I would tell those people and tell us all really, because we all need that lesson.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (29:21)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think we see so many things in nature that are direct representations or, you know, lessons we can learn about ourselves. And I totally get what you're saying on, you know, that the way in which we are is similar to some ecosystems and the way in which just kind of the whole world works together. But as you were talking about, you know, not being able to know what kind of bird

It is, I just think also of the world that we live in and technology, like you don't really have an excuse to not know what kind of bird it is anymore. Just take a picture of it and reverse Google search it, you know. So if you want to learn, it actually is pretty easy these days with the technology that we have. But thank you for sure. Thank you for sharing that. I think that that was that was a good word. And I think like you were saying, it is maturity to yes, we can see things in the really big obvious things. But can we see him in those little every day?

Andrew Cross (30:00)
Totally.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (30:13)
things. I really liked that. All right, so switching gears a little bit into the title of this podcast, My Valley, His Victory, would love for you to share about the valley that you went through and kind of just what God taught you or prepared you for in that season.

Andrew Cross (30:32)
Yeah, so, you know, I think the biggest valley season in my life was about, I guess, would have been the summer of 2019 was sort of the culmination of it. You know, the valleys don't always just come about, you know, overnight. This valley that I found myself in, I would say, you know, it was kind of years in the making.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (30:44)
Thank you.

Andrew Cross (31:02)
And in the same way, the victory is probably still in process, you know, but I certainly, I wouldn't say I'm in the valley anymore. You know, I'm somewhere, somewhere in between maybe. And so just as the valley took probably multiple years to really get down to the bottom of the valley, it's taken multiple years to get out of it as well. But for me, the valley really was what I would just,

called like ministry burnout. And so I became a youth pastor, I think I was 25, maybe late 24, something like that. But I served in full time ministry for about six years. I ran a middle school and high school program in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And I mean, I learned so many things in that time period, I saw God do some awesome things. And so I always just want to preface that like it wasn't this.

It wasn't like everything sucked. But it was very hard, you know, and the place I ended up in was certainly a valley. And I mean, I feel like nowadays we throw the term around burnout. You know, we throw burnout around a lot more. I'm just burned out of that or, yeah, you know, like, and I think maybe at times we, we overuse it, you know, and so what I

When I was in seminary getting my master's degree, we actually had some classes, which I'm super thankful about, about emotional health and also like ministerial health for people in full -time ministry. And I always like to preface this like by saying, plenty of your listeners, they might not be pastors, they might not be in ministry, they may have never done anything like in full -time ministry. And...

I think this applies to one, any helping profession, whether you're a nurse, you're a counselor, you're a social worker, et cetera, or even if you're just whatever role in life you're playing, if you're pouring out more than you are being poured into, and if you're not having space and time to really reflect and connect with others, connect with yourself and connect with God.

then I think you can find yourself in the place that I found myself in, whether you're a pastor or not. So I always just like to say that because I think it's applicable to everybody. But yeah, in seminary I learned, thankfully we learned some of the signs of burnout, how to try to prevent it and blah, blah, blah. And I was truly, I'd say physiologically burned out.

I started to have, like I had mentioned, I've dealt with anxiety for most of my adult life, but it was heightened. I started to have insomnia. I would get these weird heart palpitations where my heart would just race, like, trrr. That's probably annoying for your listeners just to hear that, because it sounded annoying in my headphones. But I mean, it was just like my heart was just pounding. And...

I

Some people have called it like adrenal fatigue, where you're basically running off adrenaline and you run off adrenaline for so long that you just become, like you're just exhausted. And I was like in that place. I had become so numb, like emotionally numb. I mean, it was really scary, like genuinely.

It's hard, I think, for me to convey how difficult that season was for me in words. It was very confusing, you know? Just confusing in the sense of, well, where's God in this? Why is this happening to me? Okay, I feel like I answered the call of God in stepping into this ministerial role. This is not how I had scripted it out.

You know, like I didn't script out being in my late 20s and feeling like a zombie. You know, that's not, it's not how I planned my life to look like, you know? And.

I mean, basically, I could talk a lot about that. You can ask me questions if you want to go into some more of the depth of that. But to sum that up, I realized that I needed to make a change in the sense of I needed to step away from full -time ministry for the time. And I didn't know if it would be permanently. I still don't know if it is.

you know, permanently. But one of the things in that role, we place a lot of expectations on other people and pastors, ministry leaders get a lot of expectations placed on them by other people. And you have to be like a very mature, healthy individual, I think, to be in that role and have people coming to you with all of their...

needs and messes and questions and still steward your own life and your own personal world, you know, in a way that...

allows you to still thrive and just be a functioning human. And I ultimately, I mean, yes, there were some external factors about my circumstances and that I would say made it more difficult, but ultimately I, I wasn't, I wasn't healthy enough, probably personally. And I'm not talking like, Oh, I didn't go to the gym enough. You know, I'm talking like my emotional spiritual health was

was not up to the demands I was being placed upon, that were being placed upon me. And so I realized that if I wanted to keep my soul, I needed to step away. And so I talked with the leadership of my church. We had sort of walked through it to some degree for months prior, and I just was like, I really, like I need to step away for good. Like I had sort of taken a sabbatical the previous year and it had helped.

Actually, that sabbatical, I went on my first three -week Grand Canyon rafting trip in that time. So they gave me a month off, the church did, and for three weeks of that time, I went out and I rafted through the Grand Canyon. And that was such a profound experience. The story I shared a few minutes ago was from my second rafting trip through, just to kind of clarify that. So yeah, the Grand Canyon, particularly rafting trips have been quite...

quite instrumental in my life, I guess, as an adult. But I, so I had this sabbatical, I went away on this Grand Canyon trip and that was the first time, I mean, I'd never spent three weeks, it was 21 days, 226 miles down the Grand Canyon. I had never spent that amount of time outdoors, disconnected from all technology, electricity, everything.

And it was truly life -changing. I mean, I don't want to throw that cliche term, oh, it was life -changing. No, it truly was life -changing for me. And so then I went back and I continued to serve as a pastor for over a year after that. And I kind of think, I hope that just getting away, okay, I had a month off, I'm going to be better. I'm going to come back. I'm going to have some different habits.

And yeah, like things are going to be good. And I just kind of kept sinking deeper and deeper. And so that's when I was like, okay, I need to step away for good and figure out what's going on, you know? And so that's, that's kind of the, the bigger picture of stepping away in the summer of 2019. And I really, because of.

some of my experiences with backpacking in my mid to late 20s and hiking that I kind of talked about earlier. And then that three week Grand Canyon rafting trip. You know, I, like I said, I just felt so numb and confused and I had no clue like what to do or where to turn. And after giving it some thought, I was like, well, here's what I know. I know that the outdoors refresh me and heal me.

and travel inspires me. And right now I feel like I need some inspiration and some healing. And so I bought a Subaru Outback. I transitioned out of my job and I drove out west and I lived out of my car for four months. I basically, I call that my road trip time because I did live out of my car for longer after that. But you know, I basically was just like on the road.

for four months. And I started kind of solo backpacking more in that time period. I had just some really profound experiences in the back alone, you know, in the back country during that time period. I just saw places I'd always wanted to go and visit, you know, Yosemite and I'd been to Yellowstone, but I went back to Yellowstone. I'd been to Yellowstone as a kid, you know, so to see as an adult was like totally different. And, you know, just some of the iconic.

places in our country. And so throughout that four months was really where I had just some deep encounters with Jesus in the back country, outdoors. And I knew I was like, okay, I can't go back to the life that I was living. I don't know exactly.

How am I gonna make money? Where am I gonna live? I mean, all those questions created a lot of anxiety for me, but I knew that that's like, you know, the West was where I belonged and that God had something, you know, for me out here. And so I just, I mean, yeah, that was, I guess that'll be five years ago this summer. So, you know, about four and a half years ago. And it's been an interesting journey since.

but I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (42:18)
Yeah. So you did that road trip after you left your job and you, you know, had some anxiety, but, you know, definitely had that, that season of like rest and wander and awe. And, you know, you talked about having some, some time with Jesus. Talk to us a little bit about just kind of, I guess life since then, cause you, you know, said that you're still in the process of.

of going through this. And, you know, I think when we talked earlier, you know, you talked about you were in full time ministry, kind of neglected your personal life. And then, you know, you went into a season of like full blown just doing whatever you wanted, you know, kind of doing this road trip and, you know, just kind of exploring what, who and what Andrew is. And so, you know, has there been a merging of the two? Has there been?

You know, kind of where have you found this balance now five years later?

Andrew Cross (43:22)
That's a really good question, Kenzie.

It makes me think because the process is still ongoing with that.

I actually, so it was kind of a sudden move that my wife and I had coming here to Grand Junction. She got a job here kind of last minute and we were like, oh wow, you know, we didn't really expect to move to Grand Junction and blah, blah, blah. But the reason I say that is when I was kind of processing, really my life since I left Virginia, so the last four and a half years has just been one of constant transition. You know, I think I've worked maybe like six different jobs.

in the last four and a half years. And although a lot of those jobs have been in the guiding realm, like some similarities, just different companies, different places, and some differences, ski instructing versus backpack guiding. I've lived maybe four different places in those four and a half years. I got married in that time period. And there's been a lot of...

where I'm just like, man, what the heck am I doing out here? Like, I mean, yeah, maybe there are times like I'm having a blast, but it's also like, well, why? Like, okay, you know, I'll get like glimpses of God, but there were definitely, especially the first couple of years when I'm like, yeah, how did I end up here? You know? And the last year and a half, I would say I've seen a transition from that where,

less confusion of why am I here or what is God doing in this and beginning to see more of this like merger of, oh, okay, I think I can see God doing this. Oh, God's put me here because, you know, I've got previous experience from say my ministry time, you know, like beginning to just see the dots connecting is kind of how I describe it. And yet there are still

plenty of times where the life that I lived, say before I came out West, just feels like a whole different world in many ways than the life I live out here. And just in terms of activities, you know, it's like, if you had told me when I was 25, like, yeah, you're gonna live out of your car for two years. I'd be like, what? Like, what happened to me? Like, you know, did I like?

I mean, it just like that wasn't, you know, it wasn't like my life's plan and goal to live out of Subaru Outback for multiple years. By the way, that was like a good, pretty good time of my life, but.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (46:19)
I'm

Andrew Cross (46:22)
You know, it was just like, what the heck? Like, this is just so weird. And what I'm getting at is I, in this time, I felt like God told me, just a handful of months ago when my wife and I found out we were moving, was that here in Grand Junction, it was gonna be a grand junction of my life, where I was gonna begin to see more of this merger of the things I learned in seminary, the time and the years that I spent, you know, studying and learning.

getting a master's at divinity, the hard work and the struggles and the lessons that I had to learn in ministry, the things that I've learned out in some interesting hippie -dippie circles that I've been guiding in, you know, for the last few years, and the experiences that I've had personally in the back country, like that I'm going to see more and more of a grand junction of God knitting those things together.

in a way that I could have never imagined. And I really genuinely believe like I'm starting to see that. And...

I could go into specific examples, but I also feel like I'm rambling on a fair amount. And so it has been, I guess if I had to sum it up.

You know, there's like kind of the cliche thing, like we say in church a lot, like, oh, you know, God, God can do, I mean, it's not just church, it does come from scripture. So it's not cliche, like it is true. It's, you know, God is able to do more than we could ever ask or imagine. And.

I'm not going to lie. There's times I doubt that there's times I'm like, Oh, that's a nice thing to say, you know. Um, but I think, you know, I think I'm beginning to see, I think God's beginning to show me like, yeah, Andrew, like this is true. You know, I mean what I say. And I am able to do more than you could ask or imagine in your life. If you continue to, to yield to me, you know, and stay humble and.

and just continue to stay hungry for growth and to learn.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (48:47)
Yeah, I think that's really important. And I know you had mentioned kind of the grand junction of your life on our previous call, and I was hoping you would mention that again, because I thought that was really cool. Just even in the place that you ended up like and seeing that in the name of the place. And, you know, you had talked about being full blown in ministry and really neglecting your personal life and not being spiritually maybe mature enough or healthy enough to handle that. And then going through.

you know, your season of healing from that and from doing all things that you actually really did enjoy. And then just seeing, okay, that time in ministry wasn't wasted. You know, I have a lot of things I can take from that, a lot of lessons to be learned, a lot of experience. You probably learned a lot about God in that season, whether, you know, good or bad. And, you know, and just seeing.

seeing those two things come together and that it doesn't have to be either or. You know, it doesn't have to be this like, I'm full blown in ministry and I do absolutely nothing to take care of myself or do the things that I love. It can actually be a culmination of both. And so I'm really excited to see, you know, how God continues to work through that and through just you and the outdoor, you know,

area in which you work in because I know, you know, that's my big heart behind this podcast and through a lot of the things that I'm doing is the outdoor space that you and I both live in, you know, are not typically well known for being Christian or, you know, for being people that follow Christ. And so, you know, I'm just really excited to see, see how you steward, you know, those jobs and those things in the future that God presents you with, because I think you're in a,

unique space now, you know, with being in the outdoor industry, but also having that ministry background to, to really do something really cool. So I'm really excited to see how, how God decides to use that and decides to use you in that. And so would love for you to just share, you know, a piece of encouragement or a piece of advice for someone who

you know, might be in a similar place that you found yourself in, you know, five years ago going through this valley. Yeah, I would just love for you to give them a piece of advice or word of encouragement if they're in the same place you were in.

Andrew Cross (51:28)
I would say if you feel like a change needs to be made, make a change. I lived a lot of my life in fear, in fear of making a mistake. And then that fear led to indecision. And...

I just, I feel like I see a lot of times Christians who over -spiritualize a bad place that they're in, whether it's an unhealthy work environment, maybe an unhealthy roommate situation. I mean, the list could go on and on, but if you feel like, yeah, something needs to change, but you don't know what, I mean, that's the thing, you know, it's like, well, I don't know.

And so then we get, even though what we're in is uncomfortable or damaging us, we stay there because it's sort of uncomfortable. You know, it's weird. It's like that weird paradox. It's uncomfortable, but yet it's comfortable. And I just, I feel like I see a lot of people and myself, I did it for many years. I would stay in those places longer than I needed to stay in because I was fearful.

I was either fearful of making the wrong choice and then, oh, I might upset God, you know, because I'm going to, what if I made the wrong choice? And it's like, man, take a look at like Jonah, for instance. I mean, you could, you could choose plenty of biblical characters or Moses, you know, but I mean, like Jonah, right. He, he basically rejected what God told him to do, you know, to go and, and to preach to, you know, the, the city, was it Nineveh?

And so he was like, no, I'm not gonna do that. And then he gets thrown overboard and a whale swallows him up. That's pretty dramatic. Or Moses, yeah, Moses goes off in the desert for what, 40 years. He kills a guy and he's just kinda like, these guys have done, these biblical characters have done plenty of stuff to screw up. And yet God still gave him grace and he still had a plan for them.

And so, you know, I'm not saying go out, like just go screw up on purpose, but you know what, if you're just sitting there and you're like, I don't know what to do. And you've just been in that, just stuck in that place for months or years and just go for it. You know, just make a decision using the best advice you can get from people around you, you know, godly people around you. If you don't have that, make the best decision that you can, you know.

given your understanding of God and his word, and just give it up to God, surrender it to God and say, Lord, if this isn't right, please show me, swallow me up in a whale or something if needed. But I just feel like a decision.

It's really the process. God can teach us if we're willing to make mistakes. If we just stay stuck in this little fearful place, it's a lot harder for God to teach us than if we're willing to send it and we're willing to give it a go, even if that means making a mistake. His grace is sufficient. He's a really good dad and he's really good at...

you know, correcting his kids and teaching his kids in a way that's beneficial to them as long as they're willing to give it a go. So that's probably what I would say.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (55:15)
Yeah, I think that's great advice. Thank you so much for sharing that. And would love for you to also just give a word of advice or encouragement to, you know, what does that burnout look like and what are some steps people can take to avoid that at all costs if possible?

Andrew Cross (55:39)
Yeah, there's, I mean, there are a lot of good resources out there now. Books, I'm in a Google search could quickly like take you to some of that stuff. I don't have one like off the top of my head that I'm like, oh, that was, you know, or else I'd say it. Um, but I would say the biggest thing that I've probably seen is human connection, authentic human connection. I believe is the number one.

prevention for burnout. You know, that's what a lot of pastors don't have. It's what a lot of people don't have. You know, that's probably still one of the biggest struggles in my life, you know, particularly with moving around so much is consistent, authentic human connection. I mean, that's how God made us, you know, and I think I've just seen more and more.

in my recent years how important that is. And a guy, a friend of mine who I really respect said this summer that joy and connection are the fuel of life. And so when you have, you can't really have joy apart from connection with others and connection with God. And then when you have connection, you have joy. And if you're living joyfully,

I believe you also, you know, you're connecting with people and then that's the fuel of life. You know, scripture says the joy of the Lord is our strength. And I really believe like, yes, joy and connection, those things together, you don't feel burned out. You don't feel exhausted. If you're living in that place of joy and connection, you have fuel. You know, you have capacity to do a lot. And so joy and connection are the fuel of life. I'm certainly...

still trying to walk that road out, but maybe that little word encourages people. And to, yeah, what do you need to do to find connection? That's a question they would have to answer for themselves. But yeah, what do you need to do to find that human connection and start there?

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (57:48)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's great advice. And I love that joy and connection and the fuel of life. Never heard that before, but I think that's really relevant. I definitely can see how that would be true. Well, thank you so much, Andrew, for all of this and just for sharing what you went through. And I know that this is going to be encouraging for those listening because...

I don't know about anyone else listening, but I know I always feel encouraged to hear people that have served full time in ministry that don't have a perfect walk with Christ, you know, and I know that sounds maybe a little bad to, you know, I don't ever hope that someone doesn't have a perfect relationship with Christ, but I think that we have that, you know, idea that people in ministry are just living this great.

awesome life for God and there's not a lot of struggle in that. And so I think that it's just encouraging. I know that's probably the wrong word, but to hear someone that has served in ministry share their story and share their struggles because we all have them. But I think it takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable and to be able to share those things. But I think that so many people can learn from.

other people that have gone through similar things. And so that's just, you know, obviously what I hope. And so I just thank you so much for sharing your story and for sharing what you did with us. I know that you are a well of information. I feel like I could talk to you for hours about all of this stuff, but just want to say thank you so much and would love for you to share with the listeners just if they want to keep up with you or your YouTube channel, where they can find you.

Andrew Cross (59:47)
Yeah, let me, let me, I don't actually remember what my Instagram name is. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. If you want to keep in touch, uh, my Instagram it's across underscore the West and then the YouTube channel is called desert drifter. Um, I guess that's the two main mediums I'm on and, uh, yeah, you can find me there. Love to.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (59:54)
Across the West.

Andrew Cross (1:00:17)
with other like -minded Christians.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (1:00:20)
Yeah, well thank you so much, Andrew, for being with us today and thank you again for sharing your story.

Andrew Cross (1:00:25)
Yeah, thank you, Kenzie. I think what you're doing is really cool and impressive because you're paving the way and whenever somebody has to pave the way in a clear way, it's a lot of extra work. And so kudos to you for trudging forward.

Kenzie Smith (KenziefromKansas) (1:00:44)
You're the kindest. Thank you so much.