059 - Overcoming the Fear of Man with Mark Anderson

In this episode, Mark Anderson, an aspiring AMGA guide and freelance photographer living in Lake Placid, New York. Mark shares his journey from Southern California to the Adirondacks, his military background, and how his love for the outdoors has shaped his faith and personal growth. He discusses the importance of connecting with God through nature, the lessons learned from his experiences and offers practical advice for listeners to cultivate their own spiritual connection with the outdoors.  Mark shares his journey through ministry burnout and the lessons learned about community support and the need for worship beyond traditional church settings. They emphasize the importance of reaching out for help and the value of personal experiences in fostering growth and healing.

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IG: @markandersoncaptures
Website: markandersoncaptures.com
YouTube: MarkAnderson

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• 14:55 [Ad] The Balance of Gray
• 15:45 (Cont.) 059 - Overcoming the Fear of Man with Mark Anderson
• 35:37 [Ad] The Signpost Inn Podcast
• 36:23 (Cont.) 059 - Overcoming the Fear of Man with Mark Anderson

Transcript

McKenzie Smith (00:01)
On today's episode of My Valley, His Victory, we have Mark Anderson. He is aspiring AMGA guide and freelance photographer and videographer living in Lake Placid, New York with his wife and two-year-old daughter. Mark grew up in Southern California, skiing, snowboarding, surfing, racing motocross, learning to climb, skydiving, and other outdoor pursuits until he left for the Army to become a medic.

He was stationed in Fort Wainwright, Alaska, where he began to be training in military mountaineering, tactical alpinism, and backcountry combat medicine at the Northern Warfare Training Center. He finished out his time with the 10th Mountain Division out of Fort Drum in upstate New York and decided to lay down roots in the North Country.

Since then, he graduated with a bachelor's degree in worship studies, hosted his own radio program called The Worship Corner, writes original music, and has continued to lead at his local church in Lake Placid. He gives all credit to where he is today because of the Lord's guiding hand through some very trying and difficult years. After years of putting his own desires in the backseat for the sake of the local church and the expectations of others around him, he is excited for what the future holds as God continues to orchestrate his steps and progressively mold him into a new man.

Thanks so much for being with us today, Mark.

Mark (01:17)
Absolutely, Mackenzie. Thanks for having me.

McKenzie Smith (01:19)
Yeah, absolutely. So I know you have read your bio, but why don't you go ahead and just tell us a little bit more about you and what you're up to in Lake Placid, New York these days.

Mark (01:28)
Yeah,

so it's like our one year anniversary since being here yesterday. Actually, me and my wife, we were talking about it. Still in our happy one year, like being in the blue line, blue light being in, just so you know, in the Adirondacks, the blue line outlines the whole park. So like being it, it always felt like home coming into the blue line every time we would cross the like enter entering the Adirondack sign, like passing it on the highway. Even before we moved here full time, it always felt like home. So yeah, we've been here a year here in Lake Placid.

It's an awesome little town. It's an Olympic village. The 1932 and 1980 Olympics were here. So there's still lot of buzz around that. There's a lot of training around that too for athletes here, which is just adds to the charm of the town and the excitement. There's a lot of events going around throughout the year. We have the ski jump here. We have white face. And then we also have Mount Van Hovenberg where they do bobsledding, skeleton, things like that too. So Lake Placid's just a, it's a fun little town.

And then I currently I work at a outdoor they call it purveyor of fine mountaineering equipment down in Keene Valley. That's kind of our tagline. Great staff down there. It's been awesome to be a part of that, too. There's been a lot of people, a lot of experience, I should say, that's come through those doors. And I've gleaned a lot over the last almost year of being there. So I work there four days out of the year. Sorry, four days out of the week. And then I also do freelance photography and video work. And I'm a part time realtor as well.

So and license guide here in New York. So it's pretty busy over the weekends trying to balance those three things on top of working out of the shop. But yeah, it's great. And just an aspiring AMGA guide. I'm not quite there yet going through the progress, going through like the learning tract of aiming towards ski guide right now. Actually, you can become a rock guide, alpine guide or ski guide. And I'm kind of on the track right now for going the ski route.

McKenzie Smith (03:24)
Okay, very cool. So what's kind of like your go-to? I know that you said that you have kind of done it all in the outdoors. It sounds like from your bio. What's kind of like your thing? Where do you find yourself most alive in the outdoors?

Mark (03:39)
really tricky. We have these conversations a lot at the shop when it's slower too. Just a lot of different, yeah, lot of the California. So being born and raised in Southern California, it was a different environment. Yeah, we were outdoors, but it's not like the outdoors as we see it on like social media where you have like through hikers, people backpacking, going climbing, maybe some backcountry skiing, split boarding, stuff like that. It was, we would, I would go surfing with my dad at the beach. So was like, yeah, we were outdoors, but it wasn't

kind of like the rugged, kind of nitty gritty stuff that we see. So, but surfing and motocross, I mean, that gave me a really good baseline kind of growing up and then learning to ski too. We would go up to just like local resorts, snow summit and bear mountain in the San Jacinto's, which was like just to the northeast of where we were living at the time. That's kind of where it all began and doing a little bit of hiking as a kid too. We would go on local trails and big bear and stuff like that. Yeah, and the outdoors.

As a kid, don't think it really, I don't think it really computes that that's place that you can actually make a living. You kind of look at it as like, okay, this is fun. This is fun territory, but this is, yeah, this is where adults go to play. This isn't like, yeah, this isn't anything professional. So in recent years, that's changed. As I think the world's changed ever since COVID, there has been an insanely high demand for people to get outdoors having guides.

McKenzie Smith (04:45)
This is my playground.

Mark (05:06)
especially for people who are just getting into it and want the peace of mind that they're going to be guided well on a trail and whether it be hiking, skiing, climbing, any of those things. So, but yeah, the outdoors is home. It's of being inside a cozy home, but being outdoors, there's something liberating for the soul. And I think God intended it that way too.

McKenzie Smith (05:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. I love that you said, you know, it was outdoorsy, but it's a different kind of outdoorsy growing up in Southern California. And it's, it's interesting. Like, I feel like there's people who absolutely just love the beach and love surfing and love that, that style of the outdoors. And it's funny to me that you, you went the opposite way. Like that's what you grew up with and you didn't stick with, you know, some of those things and went to the other end of the outdoor spectrum. And, but

All cool things and good to have that experience and it was probably fun growing up and it was probably just what was accessible. But then you got into a different place and you're like, hey, this is really cool. And I think it's really cool that you got to be kind of learn, it sounds like from your bio, learn some of these tools and skills being in the military.

Mark (06:21)
Absolutely. It's something that just in recent, like in the recent year of moving here, trying to bring clarity to like my boss, people I work with, like military folk have a lot to bring to the table. And I don't mean they should have a chip on their shoulder. There's enough, there's enough ego in the military. We don't need to bring ego to the table, but what we, the one thing that I really have realized is like, people just don't understand what we did. We lived outdoors for significant lengths of time. So when I came back from,

McKenzie Smith (06:38)
Hahaha

Mark (06:50)
being in the field for 30 some days without a shower. Well, I don't necessarily want to go back outside for substantial lengths of time. And we would call it mandatory. It's like mandatory fun with the Army. Like, yeah, we're living outside and but we're doing combat operations to our training for combat roles. So it's it's just different. But we learned I mean, I learned especially being stationed in Alaska up in Fort Wayne, right, which is interior Alaska for when it sits like the edge of Fairbanks.

It's when I, when I first flew in there, I flew there from being on leave in California after I got trained as a medic, flew up, landed in January about this. Yeah. About this time of year. It was actually, yeah, it was like January 7th. If I remember I got off the plane and it was negative 38 and I took that first breath and it's so dry up there. There's no humidity in the air and it just bites and your whole body starts to react. I had never been in that cold of a climate before I had been in like single digits. I think in like the California mountains.

It's like maybe 10, 10 to 15 degrees. But once you plummet like severely below zero, you're like, I could die out here. I should go get some good. I should go get some good clothing right now. It's sobering. It's extremely sobering, but super helpful for life, too, because so many people are afraid to just go to like some of the northern reaches of the world. And it's like some of the most beautiful stuff you've ever seen. Like, why would I want to be anywhere else, to be quite honest?

McKenzie Smith (08:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know if this is where you were in life, but I'm just, I'm literally picturing like a 20 year old surfer boy from California going and getting dropped off in the interior of Alaska. And you're, you're used to, you know, sixties and seventies most days in California and

Mark (08:17)
So.

Yeah.

Totally.

There was a culture shock there for sure. Because before that, I went to basic training in Fort Benning in the south. were smoking hot. June to August, I was in basic training. Fort Benning was just cooking. We had people dropping from heat exhaustion, all sorts of stuff. And then medic training, I was finishing out the year, so like September to December for medic training. And the climate in Texas was still pretty hot too. Fort Sam Houston's around San Antonio. So then moving that shift, went on leave in California for like 10 days and then shot up.

all the way to the West Coast. was like, whoa, it was a big, big change in the course of like six months going from smoking hot to as cold as it could possibly get almost. So, and it was good. It was good for me. It was, it was a stretching, stretching factor for sure.

McKenzie Smith (09:03)
haha

Yeah.

Yeah, wow.

Hey, that's good. And it's good that you saw it through that lens of, you know, hey, I'm going to grow here and it's just going to push me and that's okay. And we're going to learn some things.

Mark (09:27)
Yeah. Yeah,

I'm thankful. This was even prior to being saved. I'm thankful. Like there was some like depression like starting to set in when I was there, but that was also just because I wasn't saved. there's a lot of granted. That's a whole nother rabbit hole not going to go down. But yeah, the lack of daylight and certain things of that nature is like you really got to press in, in order to make it out the other side as it were. It's like you really got to have good people around you have some people you can talk to and just voice just voice things. So now

McKenzie Smith (09:46)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, definitely. So I know you said that you are a part-time photographer. Talk to us a little bit about that. What's kind of your thing? What do you shoot? you weddings, portraits, landscape, action sports? Like give us the rundown.

Mark (10:12)
Yeah, it's been, it's evolved. So getting back to Alaska too, it drew, that place drew me in like nothing else. I think being in California, like I remember taking pictures and stuff on my little digital and my little phone at the time. But the minute you pick up like a DSLR or something, something with some substance, you're like, man, this is kind of like getting behind another world within a world. And you're like, you can see it through a different lens.

And that's the creative aspect of photography, which I've really enjoyed. So landscapes is actually what I defaulted to first behind the DSLR action sports stuff. I used to take my digital camera and duct tape it to my moto helmet before GoPros were a thing. So it was like, we were doing that stuff back in the day. Like, you can actually do this. So there was a little bit of that fun stuff. Like we would, we would play around with stuff, but it wasn't anything. It wasn't anything serious. So I bought my first DSLR in Alaska and started shooting the Aurora, shooting the mountains.

McKenzie Smith (10:52)
Hahaha

Mark (11:09)
I mean, the landscapes, you could spend days and days and days and days out there just collecting an insane amount of archives. And started taking it pretty seriously after about the second year of being there and getting out on the weekends when we would either go snowboarding or go for a hike or go climbing, I would just bring the camera with. And typically I would just kind of default to landscapes and take pictures of friends and stuff. But yeah, I noticed pretty quick too, just having an eye for it and

REI started to notice some of my work and would reach out and ask to like feature it in my blogs and stuff like that. So that's kind of where I was super excited because I had just like I was just going out to the field and they had just reached out and I was like, oh, OK, this is interesting. This is actually a path. This is potentially a pathway to do work in moving into the future. And obviously it's been 10 years since that. So, yeah, just continue to shoot landscapes. I do action sports, do weddings as well. Not as often. I'll typically be a second shooter.

on weddings. And but I love the human element now too, because the recluse in me or the the introvert love to just go into nature and shoot landscapes all day. But over the years, I've seen I'm like, you know what, they're having the human element is, it's super rewarding. Especially in action sports, watching people move through landscapes, still featuring it, but having people ski through it, climb through it. I mean, it's just, that's, that's where I feel like I've kind of like found my my happy place.

is being outside and just shooting people, whether it's hiking, climbing, skiing, boarding, even moto, done moto over the years too. yeah.

McKenzie Smith (12:36)
Yeah.

Okay, very cool. Yeah, and it sounds like you can, you know, keep up in the outdoors too, because I think that's half of being an action sports photographer, you know, or videographer is you got to get to these places where the people are doing the things. And so you have to have the outdoors resume as well as the the photography resume. And so yeah, I think that's I think that's really cool. I'm always blown away by

Mark (12:56)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (13:15)
you know, the Jimmy Chins of the world, you know, is kind of just the person that I always refer to. Like, it's like they're just, they're just as great as an athlete, as some of these other people, but yet you would never know because they're the one behind the camera.

Mark (13:18)
Uh-huh.

He does great work.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, Jimmy Chen's a perfect example,

climbing photographer through and through, and he does other stuff too, but man, his climbing photography is absolutely beautiful. But he's doing rope work behind the scenes. He's getting anchors set up. I mean, he may be leading routes sometimes. I think I've seen stuff where he's like leading routes, but also shooting in the meanwhile too, as they're through, moving through. It's just, yeah, he's on a whole nother level.

McKenzie Smith (13:40)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you have to have the skills. And that's, think, what differentiates those people that can actually really get out there and shoot some of this stuff. so it's always cool when those two things come together. So we've talked about the outdoors, talked about how great it is. We love the landscapes. We love being out there. Talk to us a little bit about how all of these things, being in the outdoors plays a role specifically in your relationship with Christ.

Mark (14:21)
Yeah, man.

That's where.

I think.

Sorry.

McKenzie Smith (14:39)
Okay, take your time.

Mark (14:45)
where things changed for me. After getting saved, was just, I was moving into a time of like full-time church ministry where just in the walls all the time. Like, and the expectation was to be at like, like be at the church all the time. It was tricky. My father-in-law at the time was a senior pastor of the church just after I had gotten saved and.

Just the relational dynamic was tricky. We got along really well, but there was certain that I noticed there were certain things in my life that were just getting like completely back seated and, just like separated. And over the course of like five years, I mean, I didn't really get outside much at all. That was, I was going to the gym, staying in shape, doing things like that. Cause still needed to and wanted to. but I realized I was like, there was kind of this like hollow part of me that like got kind of just like dropped off and not picked up for us.

pretty significant length of time. And hiking was like the one thing that I started to like default back to coming out here to the Adirondacks. I was living in Watertown at the time. That's where the church was at. Great church, great people. The expectation was just extremely high just to be there all the time. So like getting away for like any any length of time was kind of tricky. But over time, I felt the Lord starting to like put it just I mean, he just put the desire in my heart just to get outside again.

get the camera out. My camera set and collected dust for pretty significant length of time as well. mean, sometimes for six to like 12 months at a time. And I just picked my camera. I got my bag, got a new camera bag that I could go hiking with and just went out and started taking pictures and hiking around the park. And I cannot count how many times the Lord met me there through weather patterns.

that I knew his hand was, I mean, we know, we read the verse in Colossians. He's the first born over creation. He moves through creation, but when you're in the moment and you can put your finger on it and you see, he stirs something in you that it's like, hey, you're not going to miss this. Like this is me here right now reminding you like spirit to spirit, I'm here. I drew you out here for a reason. And it's like my soul needed that. There was, so I would take weekends.

and not full weekends, but I would come out either with my with my wife and kid or I would come just hike for the day and go turn around, head back to Watertown. But it was the most it was the most needed thing for me at the time to then go lead worship on Sundays and Wednesdays and Thursdays and the whole bit. There's just a lot of expectation and a lot of a lot of stress there. Some of it good, some of it just unhealthy. And the outdoors is just where I continue to meet him.

And I would even hear people kind of like passively mock the eyes. Oh, he's heading out. He's got to go climb another mountain or he's going to go do this. And it's like, you know, it finally got me to a point where I was like, I, I don't care enough what other people think of me in a healthy way. It's not that I don't love them, but Jesus did the same thing. I was just talking to James Appleton. He was just on your podcast the other day. We were sitting in the car and I shoot video and photo for him. And I was like, James, like Jesus literally climbed mountains multiple times.

to go be with the Father. He saw it, he understood it. And he took time away from the masses instead of sitting and healing and ministering and teaching all the time. The dude got in the flesh, literally climbed a mountain and he went to seek the Father granted. But at the same time, I'm like, was in human flesh. So I'm sure he reaped the benefit, the same kind of benefits we do. So that's been the outdoors for me.

I feel like I meet him there over and over and over again. And I feel the spirit just continue to just reward me there.

McKenzie Smith (18:38)
Yeah, I love that you brought up that, you know, Jesus did it. And so it's like, how much more is that, you know, a sign that we should do it? I think it's so important. And there's there's a part of our soul that I mean, whatever it is, like, it doesn't have to be the outdoors. I think that's a really good, a good picture because Jesus did it. But like,

I think it's the getting out, getting away, the rest and away from all the stresses and all the things. you know, for you, that's the mountains. For some people that may just be, you know, like going and sitting at a coffee shop and having their favorite beverage. I don't know. But, but, but yeah, it's that it's that intentionality. And it's like, you know, yeah, Jesus did it. But think about Moses had to climb the same mountain like eight times to meet with the

Mark (19:17)
Right, totally, totally.

I was

just thinking about that last like a week or two ago. was like, man, that dude put it through the paces. Like Lord was like, you're going to climb this one multiple times. You're to get acquainted with every rock. It's funny.

McKenzie Smith (19:35)
Yeah, and there's... Yeah, yeah, you're

not just gonna climb it once. And yeah, I just think that mountains are used so much in the Bible. I mean, so much. In the wilderness, know, Jesus going out and spending time and... It's just, it has to be a part. Like, I don't think it's a coincidence. I don't think it's a metaphor.

Mark (19:53)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (20:04)
I think there probably are pieces of that, you know, for sure. But I think there's a, there's a true, he talks so much about his creation and how we can find him in it. And yeah, I think it's so good in that it was your, your rest place and people were, people were shaming you for it, but it's like, this is what I need. And I think this is like what people don't understand. It feels selfish or it looks selfish.

hey, he's going out here and he's climbing mountains on the weekends. But in your mind, it's like, no, I have to do this in order to be able to show up. You know, like this is what my soul needs and it's not selfish. It's allowing me to do the work that God has asked me to do because I'm going and I'm finding rest. And people are like, how can climbing a mountain be restful?

for the people who find God and who, you know, that's their space. It is. It's physically taxing, but it is mentally restful.

Mark (21:04)
It is.

And there are times where it's less physically taxing too. I try to make those times too, where I know I'm like, Hey Mark, you don't need to be so objective based. You can go chill on a small summit. Let's go like Mount Joe here and looking over heart Lake. It's a nice like under a thousand feet, a couple miles out. And it's just, it's one of the most beautiful spots to just go and just relax and just take it in and just, and in those moments too, like I,

McKenzie Smith (21:14)
you

Yeah.

Mark (21:33)
For anyone who's listening, I challenge you to ask God to show up for you there too, because he'll do it. He did it for David. David wrote about it in the Psalms quite a bit. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (21:45)
Yeah. So I would love for you to share a specific story about a way in which maybe God has revealed himself to you or spoken to you through the outdoors.

Mark (21:57)
Yeah,

there's multiple ones, but one that was man, it floored me like it was just me and my buddy, Matt. This is before we had moved out here to the park. We were I was going through just doing a little hiking challenge to the next six and this is like six little peaks around Sarnac Lake just down the road from like Placid and there's a fire tower mountain with a fire tower on it called St. Regis Mountain. And we had spent the night the previous night, both of our families together in a little Airbnb. We were

getting out of town for the weekend, same kind of deal. And we just started the hike early that morning. Got to the trail early, nice and dark, got to the top, the summit after the hike, not super challenging, but it was like socked in with fog and we had both brought our camera, he did his photography as well. And we just kind of looked at each other like, okay, it might be time to head down. We were hanging out for about 20, 30 minutes. And then there was just like this soft little light I started poking through.

the clouds and I just sensed the Lord like you're not leaving yet. Man, that was one of the most incredible. Just one of most incredible displays where I know he did that one for us. Like there was not a single question we he had grown up doing some photography too. And then obviously with my history, I was like, man, like as I was sitting there, I started crying. I'm like, dude, I'm like.

McKenzie Smith (22:58)
you

Mark (23:20)
I'm like, did you see that? And it took him a bit. I had to like, kind of draw it out, like put his attention on it. And he was like, he's like, yeah. He's like, yeah, that one's hard to deny. Cause I'd always talked about him whenever I had mentioned to my friends and he was one of them on my God moves through creation, like very vividly. And that was one that definitely stood out. Yeah. Just beautiful scenery around there. There's lakes all around this mountain and climb up in a fire tower and just get these views that just go on for like.

on a clear day, which we had after the clouds had burnt off. It was like 100 miles. And it was just that beautiful light for like an hour. And we were just clicking away, filling our SD card within like 45 minutes. Yeah, it was incredible. And yeah. And the one thing I will say too is he showed up for me big time when I went out to the North Cascades in Washington.

McKenzie Smith (23:55)
you

Yeah.

Mark (24:13)
Getting used to multi-pitch climbing for me is something that's really drawn me out of my comfort zone. Just being on exposed rock, like on an 800 foot cliff. Like granted, yeah, you're roped in. You have anchor set and stuff like that. But it was pretty mentally taxing for me that day. And I just prayed like that night in the tent before I was like, I know there's going be like a 12 pitch climb. going, we're ascending. don't know. I think for the day it was close to close to 4,000 feet.

And I just remember getting back to my tent that night. And I was like, you met me there again. Like just giving just giving me the strength to do a climb that honestly, the night before I was like, I don't think I'm to be able to do this. I'm probably gonna have to bail. And I was just like Lord, it's like you can you can help me through this. You've you've you've brought me through a lot worse. But it stretches me to he meets me there in the mountains. He's kind of like right there just guiding me, giving me the strength. So he's in the details.

McKenzie Smith (25:12)
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I love the story of the, the fire lookout because I think so often we, we have an agenda and we, know, you're, we'll go up there. We'll look for a little while and we'll come back down. But I think it's the being, being able to slow down.

Mark (25:29)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (25:37)
let go of your schedule, you know, and it's like you guys were about to leave and then you ended up staying for another hour plus or whatever it was. It's like, just be patient. Like just just sit, just sit in the moment sometimes and just, you know, wait because I think so often we just like, that wasn't what I wanted. I'm going to turn around and go back, you know, or whatever. And so sometimes it's just it's just being patient and waiting and being open to to a different.

Mark (25:44)
Yeah.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (26:05)
different experience or a different timeline, you know? And so I think patience is the key in that story and and then in the second story, you know, just just asking God for strength like I think For me specifically like I often feel silly in those moments like asking God like hey Can you give me the strength to like do this hike and it's like?

Mark (26:07)
All right. Yep. Yep. It's good for us.

Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (26:29)
He has you out there for a reason and he wants you to rely on him. And I have to remind myself of that all the time. Like I'm not supposed to be able to do things in my own strength and I need to have that reliance on God. And so even though it seems silly, like for me, I know I feel silly. I'm like, God, give me the strength to like continue on this hike. It's like, I feel silly, but I know that it's, I know that it's So.

Mark (26:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 100

% agree.

McKenzie Smith (26:55)
So yeah, it seems like selfish sometimes like, God help me, I want to see this view. But it's like, no, like he pushes us to things that we're going to need history for. And so it's just recognizing that and turning to that instead of just like, I got this, I'm macho and I can do this. I don't need nobody. I have my quads. What do you mean? I don't need God.

Mark (27:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah,

the gym work and yeah, gym work and training lingo so far. It's a good thing, but no.

McKenzie Smith (27:25)
Yeah,

yeah, that's it's that brain exercise though. It's tough. I think it's more more mental sometimes outdoor adventures than it is physical.

Mark (27:35)
100 % that's the other

kicker too. And that's what climbing's really stretched me with too is the mental capacity more than physical. 100 % because I feel like 50 % of our brain power is devoted to like keeping myself calm as I'm above a climb that's going to potentially kill me. That's got a massive drop below it. And it's like the more you're in it, the more you do learn to trust the equipment. Obviously trusting God in the process too, but it's like there is that point of like, okay, Lord, I'm going to trust you in this.

McKenzie Smith (27:41)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mark (28:03)
also going to trust the equipment that's been time tested over this time. So just help me just relax, breathe into it. One of my climbing instructors out there for the school in Washington was super helpful. He's just this calm demeanor dude. He's like, Mark, why don't you just like breathe, man? Like, just just be calm. Like just loosen your arms up a little bit like in just in that little process, though. I'm like, thank you. Because like I don't I know.

McKenzie Smith (28:23)
you

Mark (28:32)
I know I'm tense at times, especially climbing and I'm like, no, I need to hear that. I need that mental reminder to keep telling myself that, or at least hear his voice hitting the replay button saying, Hey, just relax. Don't need to be so tense and still trusting the Lord there. And it does feel selfish at times for whatever reason too, because we're doing some, whenever we do anything we enjoy as Christians, I feel like there's always a guilt factor, which needs to honestly be squashed because the Lord helps us keep those boundaries too. When he knows we're, we're doing things that we

McKenzie Smith (28:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark (29:02)
Yeah, maybe we're spending too much time outdoors. He's faithful to just keep us on that trajectory too. But he knows we need it as well.

McKenzie Smith (29:10)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I you live in the Adirondack Park, Lake Placid, New York, beautiful, surrounded by mountains. What is a piece of practical advice that a listener could take away to maybe start connecting with God on an everyday basis while not being out in these huge mountains and, you know, on these crazy adventures?

Mark (29:36)
Yeah, daily rhythms. That's what I've resorted to. Scripture every morning. That has not changed. That's one thing I asked him for like one time. I was like, Lord, help me just keep your word at the front of my mind because I know me, there are times where I want to get the day going, but it's some of the most settling times in the morning just to wake up, make coffee, grab the Bible, read a chapter or two depending on whatever reading plan I'm doing.

and just connecting with him there first and in prayer in tandem. And sometimes I'll grab my guitar and do a bit of worship too. But it's typically just me just sitting there just trying to get my head right for the day with him. yeah, that all starts indoors too. It's nice to take some of that stuff outdoors too. But before I even step out the door, I remember I used to listen to Charles Stanley a lot and there was something he always used to say in some of his teachings.

It's essentially, he's like, when you wake up, he's like, before your feet hit the floor, start the dialogue, basically, is what he used to say. And I'm like, that's huge, because it is easy. There's so, our minds are so scattered sometimes. like C.S. Lewis wrote about that too. He's like, I feel like I used to just like wake up and like the hounds are just coming, the wolf, like just the thoughts. It's like a treadmill. And it's like, if you don't slow it down, at least, but at a minimum.

just start praying because he'll help capture your mind where it needs to be for that given moment and start getting you set for the day. Yeah, and he'll lead you through his word too, just reading scripture. But yeah, it's just slowing our souls down because we're in a fast paced world, making time for him. And I love the morning. I'm an early riser. So it's easy for me. When the 4 4.30 alarm clock goes off, I'm like, time to go.

McKenzie Smith (31:12)
Thank

Yeah

Mark (31:32)
I don't debate it anymore.

McKenzie Smith (31:35)
Yeah, I'm still praying about that one.

Mark (31:39)
It's not for everyone. Let me clarify that too, because I have heard some folks in the church like, you need to get up early and do this. It's like, no, if it comes naturally, do it. And if you're a night owl, sure, then maybe schedule a 30 minute time frame or whatever time frame works for that given day to get with the Lord. But do something, do something. That's why I say rhythms and like just these rhythms that we put in place. it's like, think that's what he's had intention for us all along, too, is just healthy rhythms of life.

McKenzie Smith (31:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark (32:07)
We have work, we have recreation, we have family time, we have like home chores. Like there's more than enough to fill our plate. And it's like, we do have to kind of not schedule ourselves to a T, be flexible, but at least just make a point at the beginning of the day to say, hey, these are the rhythms that I've put in place. And God's like allowed me to do throughout the years. And I've just seen him be faithful in that too. was like, he'll carve that time out for you. He wants us to be with him. There's nothing he enjoys more.

McKenzie Smith (32:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I definitely have the morning, like it's what I try to do when I wake up, but it's like you said you wake up at 430, like there's not a chance. If I don't have to be up at 430 in the morning, like if it's not like, you know, I have to do something at eight, which means I have to wake up or, you know, I have to do something at six, which means I'd have to wake up at five. like.

Mark (32:46)
Right.

McKenzie Smith (32:57)
If that's not the case, like, there's not a chance I'm waking up at 430. I still try to make it my first priority, but it's, I've always just, it's funny because my husband's like, you need to pray to be a morning person. Cause I am like not a morning person. Like I'm like, until I've had a cup of coffee, like don't, don't talk to me. I need my quiet time. I like, I think I'm just a slow, I think I'm just a slow.

Mark (33:00)
Yeah, right, right.

Yeah. Yeah, don't talk. Yeah. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (33:25)
wake her up is not the right word, but like it just takes my body a while to get going. And my mind is not like, cause he wakes up and he's like chipper and happy and you know, he's ready to have a conversation. I'm like, my eyes are awake, but my body is not, you know what I mean? So that's funny. Yeah, I can do it if I have to, but there's, if I don't have to, there's not a good chance that I'm getting out.

I like my sleep.

Mark (33:56)
Yes, there are days

where I need it too. I know when I'm running too hard, Lord's like, hey, it is. is. Man, I love being up before the sun too. Over the years, it's just been, the army helped with that too. I mean, that was like required, but even after I got out, I was like, I actually really do enjoy being up before the sun. But that's my happy place. Some people love being night owls. I can't stay up late.

McKenzie Smith (34:01)
Yeah, but sleeping in for you is probably like seven o'clock.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark (34:23)
My wife calls me grandpa because like we'll be watching a movie. I like it's like finishing at nine thirty and I'm like wrecked because been up for quite a while.

McKenzie Smith (34:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I love sunrises because it means I was very intentional about getting up and doing it. so they're very special because they're few and far between. But I like this time of year because the sun doesn't rise to like seven. So I see more sunrises this time of year.

Mark (34:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, there is a perk to it.

McKenzie Smith (34:56)
Okay, Mark, well, switching gears into kind of the title of this podcast, My Valley, His Victory, would love for you to share a valley or a season of wilderness that you experienced and what God maybe taught you or prepared you for in that season.

Mark (35:11)
Yeah, kind of alluded to it earlier and it's just going to be very general. My heart for the church has been the same even through this process of walking through a pretty tough valley, being in full time ministry. But yeah, there is a time right after getting out of the military, God had called me to start leading worship in the local church. There was definitely a calling there. But as I kind of said earlier too,

My mindset at the time or the way I understood Christianity to be or walking with the Lord was you have to deny yourself in every single facet of life. When I had a read, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me, I literally took that as, okay, Mark, you are no longer going to do pretty much anything fun. That's how I understood it. And that's kind how I was told to by in a way, in a run around way of some elders in our current church. And I just

kind of continued on in full-time ministry, but all the while my soul just took a plummet, but it was progressive. It didn't just happen overnight, it took over. it was about four years of being in full-time ministry and even people around me, I didn't even realize how unhealthy I had gotten just because of this mode of being at like every service, every church event, because I felt like I had to.

and had just set into the point where I'm like, OK, this is life. But all the while, like even bodily people, people would come up to me like, are you doing OK? Like there'd be indicators like I'm like, why are these people asking him if I'm OK? Like I'm doing I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Leading worship four to five times a week, like doing a radio program for the that we had or started a radio program with the radio ministry we had, which was fantastic. But yeah, all the while.

It was just tough because the expectations from my current father-in-law were to just be there, be there all the time. And then after I got married and then we had our daughter, it just got extremely challenging to try to balance the full-time church expectation, plus also trying to balance a bit of part-time work on the side and found it getting very challenging financially, time-wise, not with the family, not seeing my wife, even though we were there in the same town, just...

We were gone all the time from each other in a way. And we would just come home at night and just crash. And yeah, the quality of life was diminishing. And yeah, without getting into the details though, the relationship with my father-in-law was very, very tense from the very beginning before I ever got married. And there was essentially a threat made that if I ever took his daughter from him, he would take me out.

So that was the start of our relationship moving into church ministry. And that was my perceived expectation and being in the fear of man, I had been a yes man and just been very fearful of people my entire life. I was like, okay, this is it. I guess this is it. And then that was the trajectory I was on. I became very bitter, very angry, especially toward like the latter like fourth year of just being in that role and starting to shake my fist at God.

And then I just remember God just kind of like grabbing my shoulders hypothetically and just being like, I didn't do this to you. I didn't ask you to do all this. And I had plugged in with a ministry at that time called Worship Circle, just a hats off to Todd and Paul and all those guys, because if it weren't for that ministry, I would have been on the same trajectory. The whole premise of that ministry was you are not just a commodity.

in the church. As we've seen in life, I think a lot of folks have seen in the Western church, it starts to look more like a business. you these roles that we fulfill. It's like you always expect like the worship leader to be there for 30 plus years or the same people to be doing these roles. And the expectations get so high. And I think we're seeing more of a church burnout than ever before. And I think it's just because of expectations being set so high that there's been this kind of like paradigm shift.

And but yeah, the Lord was faithful to walk me through that through that valley. It was very dark because I had gotten anger, angry, bitter. And then I guilt trip myself for being angry and bitter at the situation. So it was this constant tug of war back and forth, back and forth. It's like Mark, like being angry with God, angry myself, angry with my father-in-law and just the whole bit. And but finally, there was a time where the Lord just put on my heart. You cannot be fearful of man anymore.

because I've lived in the fear of man for my whole life. And that was essentially my relationship, even with my actual father too, growing up, just being very, very fearful of man, being domineered in certain ways in my life. And then finally coming to a point where I said enough is enough. And the Lord was faithful to just give me a clean heart through that process, which I'm super thankful for, because I could see how ugly

I was getting in the process to how bitterness just once it takes root over the course of years. My God, I remember having a discussion with with Paul, who is my mentor through Worship Circle and just telling him. I was like, this root of bitterness has been here for so long. I continually giving it back to the Lord, but because it's been so many years, it feels like you're uprooting something that won't end and you feel like there's no end in sight. So.

In Hebrews, believe it's where it's mentioned. If you have a root of bitterness, basically get it out, give it to the Lord, start that process of healing. And granted, was, I mean, that was as well from the beginning for me to get over it. But at the same time, it just took a long time because there was so many years of history and me just saying yes to things that I shouldn't for lack of knowledge too, in a way. Very dark time, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. The light at the end of the tunnel was

McKenzie Smith (41:19)
you

Mark (41:30)
coming, not necessarily coming out here to the Adirondacks, but that was part of his plan all along. We had seen to once we moved out here, it's been a year ago, like to the date. That was part of his plan all along. When we had our girl, our two year old, just after my wife had given birth to her, we drove out here for just a fall foliage drive a couple of years ago. And I just remember looking over and being like, I wouldn't mind living here year round. And

I didn't really take note of it until especially after we moved. was like, yeah, God had put that desire there long ago. But I think that distance and it wasn't us running. We just knew this was part of God's plan. So I openly talk about this story as difficult as difficult it is because the other thing I didn't want to be guilty of is contention within the church. That's the other thing, too. I was dealing with and I'm like, Lord, you really need to help me sort this out. It's like I don't want to I don't want to demolish anyone's name.

I don't even want to mention it, but I want the story to help someone because I know I'm not the only one. Tert-tert is a very real thing. It can take years. The process can take years, unfortunately, from the time that you maybe were hurt or abused or whatever it is to the time that you're healed. Yeah, it's gut wrenching, but my God, you will come out. You're going to come out a better person. I know. I know I do. I just told a coworker the other day. I was like,

Very few things offend me anymore. And that was all through that process of just years of just realizing like, no, we need to be in the fear of God and not a man at all. There's no reason to.

McKenzie Smith (43:01)
haha

Yeah, I have my brain is going in like five different directions of where I should where I should go from here. But thank you first off just for sharing. And like you said, I do know that there is a large culture of burnout in the church. There is a large culture of church hurt. Some is justified, some is

I just don't like the Bible. I think that that has been lumped into church hurt. And so I want to separate those two. This is not you got your feelings hurt because they told you that you shouldn't be living with your boyfriend. That's biblical truth. That's biblical truth. But there are people that have been hurt by leaders of the church, by people in the church, by the people that

Mark (43:47)
True. True.

Yeah,

McKenzie Smith (44:13)
by the church system, just in general, because it has reached a place that, you know, I don't want to say that it wasn't God's intentions, but I think we have taken church into a different space for sure in America than we see sometimes in the Bible.

Mark (44:35)
green.

McKenzie Smith (44:35)
And

so it's tricky, it's hard to navigate because it has turned into a business in some ways. there's people that rely on this like a job and the ministry has now become a full-time job. And I just...

It's hard and it's tricky and I have a lot of empathy and grace for people that have walked through full-time ministry because there people that have really great stories and you know it's changed their life. There's people that have had you know the opposite and so I kind of want to kind of want to touch on the

the deny that you were you were kind of a baby Christian when you stepped into full-time ministry.

Mark (45:25)
Yeah, that was the other problem.

And I didn't, I know that was the main issue because there's lack of knowledge. And that's what I meant earlier by lack of knowledge. didn't, yeah, it had just, I had just become born again right out of the chute and got pushed into that role, called into the role, but also pushed in a regard.

McKenzie Smith (45:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so you were a brand new Christian who, you know, kind of, we all have verses. This is not, this is not wrong. We all have verses that we know and we know really well and some that we read and that feels really convicting for us. And especially probably coming to, to faith at an older age, you, held onto that because it was like deny yourself, you know, all of the things and that was what you did.

And I think that this is why, you know, this is not no, no shame to you, but like, this is just the point of like, why it's so important to know, to know the Bible in its totality, you know, and to, and to fully read the entire thing. And it's not that you're going to, that you're going to be able to take it all in and know everything on the first try. But, you know, I think back to the scripture in first Timothy, and it talks about the people.

Mark (46:24)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (46:39)
people in the church, you know, it's talking to the leaders of the church and it says for if he does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for the church? And it's like, to me, that is showing me that your family, you know, should be the priority and that you should steward that well first, you know, as a...

what's the word I'm looking for, for a picture of how you're going to, you know, be a leader in the church. And so I think it's just tricky. I think it's so tricky these days because we, you know, we read the verses like, you know, I just read in Matthew this morning, you know, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure you find in a field and you will sell everything that you have to go and get that treasure.

Mark (47:31)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (47:34)
So it can be so tricky, but I think we have to go back to, know, am I doing this?

because I love God and I love his people and I want to encourage others and I have a heart of worship and I have a heart of teaching versus, I absolutely have to do this every day because it's my job. And that's not to say to go based on your feelings and that your worship and thanks to God should be based on your feelings. I say all of this and there's so many asterisks, but.

Mark (48:14)
You

McKenzie Smith (48:15)
You know, like, I don't even know. It's just, it's just so hard.

Mark (48:22)
It is and I think part of my part of the solace that I get is just knowing that.

is just knowing that, I mean, when he says he's a shepherd, he's going to keep you on the right path. Meaning your vocation may change your. Your calling's irrevocable. We know that much. Paul even wrote about that. That verse was very helpful, too. I think it's Romans 11, 29, if I remember right. God's callings are irrevocable, essentially. So the fact like when I moved out here, yeah, I didn't want to jump back into worship leading. And he gave me a time to reset, which I prayed for. And he gave me about like seven months.

I remember is like right around that seven month mark. The desire did come start to come back and it wasn't forced. But I told my wife was like, I need some time and she needed time as well, too. She was a champ through all this, too, because that previous story isn't just a woe is me type thing. It's it happened. But my wife went through the ringer as well. So she was she was incredible through all of it. Super encouraging all the while pregnant with our first kid.

But yeah, all that to say it is tricky. It is tricky to kind of figure out some of these metaphors that Jesus does use at times and some of them are direct. could tell in the language, in the context of the passage, it's like, okay, Lord, now you're being a little more direct there. You're being a little bit more, yeah, you're just being direct, straight to the point.

McKenzie Smith (49:50)
Yeah.

Well, and think there's something that I think has gotten a little lost. And I even have a hard time navigating this, but the Great Commission verse being a leader of a church. Because I think that we all have the call to the Great Commission, right? We all have that. But I think that

Mark (50:16)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (50:20)
We live in a society now where, okay, well, if that's our life calling, then we need to figure out a way to make it our job.

and so I think that there's, there's, there's, yeah, two sides to that coin. Like, and I think that that's just, it's, it's hard to navigate. but I think that's where the, where I think a lot of this, this problem, you know, I say, I say problem, church problem, you know, that we have, have an America comes from. I will love to hear though, from you just kind of how.

Mark (50:53)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (51:01)
And I think I kind of already know the answer because you talked about hiking, where do you go? Where do you go when you have a problem with the church? But the church is the problem.

Mark (51:08)
Mm-hmm

Yeah, that was yeah. And you hit the nail on the head. Whether it was coming out here and going for a hike or even just going for a drive sometimes. If I knew I can get out of town, come out here to the mountains. I just knew I mean, I had seen time and time again that going for a hike was just therapeutic for me just because my body is moving. I'm able to pray through it. It's not super like mentally labor intensive.

Yeah, just getting outside and breathing in the fresh air. That is so needed. I'll say that in whatever capacity. If you go for a hike, if you go for a walk by a pond, walk the neighborhood, whatever it is, get your body moving, get outside, get the fresh air in your body because it changes things. When you're inside for hours at a time, if you're in the church walls for hours, let's say you're on a media team and you're just under fluorescent bulbs and looking at screens all day. It's like, yeah, whoa, like it starts to tax you.

Big time and it's like your your body for long significant lengths of time. It's just not healthy. It's been proven time and time again too. It's like if you don't get natural light, if you don't get oxygen like true fresh air. Yeah, your body just starts to feel it. So yeah, if it's not hiking. If you're just if you're in like a metro like a metropolitan type area or an urban environment. There's going to be some nature trails around there guarantee it.

McKenzie Smith (52:32)
Thank

Mark (52:45)
like the yeah, thank God for nature conservancy. That's all I have to say, because over the years, too, I used to like kind of scowl at it. I'm like, yeah, they're tree huggers, this and that. I'm like, no, I've got to know them. I've not gotten to know them fairly well. Some of them do take it to the nth degree. There is times where it's it's it can be taken a bit out of a bit out of the parameters, I think. But man, go to a nature trail, go for a walk and just just pray to.

McKenzie Smith (52:49)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, that's good. Okay, one last question before we leave the piece of advice for someone going through a similar season. I would love to just kind of hear from your perspective how you've reconciled your view of church and being able to step back into leading worship.

Mark (53:39)
Yeah. So I would.

My view of church has changed in the sense of I still lead, but man, I have a desire to take worship outside of the four walls right now, like never before, to get like PA system set up outside, getting outside of the buildings. That's been a desire he's been stirring in me for years and I don't know how it's all gonna work out, but he won't take his finger off that either.

because I think there's a connection there.

When I read Psalm 148 for the first time, I was talking to my wife and I'm like, could you imagine the difference between reading Psalm 148 outside versus inside? Praise him from the heavens, praise him from the earth, his hands moving through the snow, like creating all this stuff. And it's like, man, for, and even for non-believers too, like to show up and see something like that, seeing

Seeing the church praising the creator in the outdoors, in some of these areas, I mean, for me, there's nothing better. Being inside the wall sometimes it's needed. But I think it's like the church can, man, the church used to move in the book of Acts. We were very mobile. Our church ancestors were very mobile. Paul was on the road all the time. And I was like, yeah, he was inside.

quite a bit too, but it's like, I think the early church was just so vibrant and so willing at like any point to just wherever they were, if they're an outdoor amphitheater, if they were in a building like in Greece or whatever, it's just, I think there's something to that though. He's just given me a desire for over the years. But as I step back in and just kind of look at the time,

Look at the time that I had in full-time ministry. I'm like, Lord, help me still take away, help me take away the pros and the good things and the people, mainly the fellowship that I had with the believers in that previous church and don't let me lose touch with them either. And help me take those lessons forward to help myself, but more importantly, help other people. If those conversations come and those relationships come that I can kind of help just bring comfort to other people. If I can.

McKenzie Smith (56:14)
Yeah,

Mark (56:15)
if that answers your question.

McKenzie Smith (56:15)
yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's good. Even though seasons may be hard and challenging, hence I say bad, there can also be good. And it's sometimes just important to focus on the good that came out of it and move past the bad. And I think that that's really helpful because then you...

you can start to see, you because I think we get in this mindset of it was a wasted season or, you know, all of it was just bad if you don't take the time to look on the good. it's like nothing's wasted. Like something was something was happening there. So, yeah, Mark, we'd just love for you to leave, leave the listeners with a word of advice or a piece of encouragement if if they find themselves in a in a similar season of being in.

Mark (56:57)
Right. Right.

McKenzie Smith (57:13)
full-time ministry and you know just just really having a hard time maybe the demand seems seems too high maybe there are physical or emotional abuse things happening in the church like yeah just just what you can you can kind of go with it wherever you want but but what piece of advice or word of encouragement would you give to that person?

Mark (57:37)
I would say number one, reach out to someone that you're comfortable with to talk about it first because there's something that happens when we don't keep things bottled up. If you have someone in your circle, whether it's your family, someone you may have a small group with that you're close with, whoever the Lord leads you to talk to about it, just confide in them. also, I mean, if you're trying to do it in an attackful way without, if you feel like you are gossiping or whatever, just tell your friend like,

Can I tell you this in confidence, but at least have someone that you can air it out with. Let it out and talk about it. And sometimes it may look, it may sound ugly because it may stir things in you that it's like, my gosh, like, I can't believe I'm saying this. But at the same time, it's like, that's how I think the Lord has an intention. When you look at the book of Psalms too, you never just see it's happy go lucky ever. It's just not the case. Psalm 73,

Psalm 77, I believe, even David Psalm 22, like my soul's in torment or I mean, there's some very vibrant and what some people would say, heretical language in the Psalms. Read it through. If you have not read the book of Psalms yet and you're going through a tough time, I'm sure you've opened it, but maybe, yeah, go hit Psalm 73, Psalm 22, some of these passages and really look at the language that's used. These psalmist are airing themselves out before God.

they have to. If you keep it bottled, I kept it bottled for so long, my body started to like seize. I used to get pains in my gut that were just incredibly painful and it would floor me for the whole day because I felt like I couldn't tell anyone. But in the process of being and that's when I plugged in with the ministry worship circle that I alluded to earlier where it was a 100 % safe space that God brought me to. And I remember when we were going around in the group like introducing ourselves, I broke.

McKenzie Smith (59:10)
you

Mark (59:35)
because I was at that point of getting ready to walk away from worship ministry. And Paul Blasch was my mentor at the time. And I just remember seeing him lean in physically, spiritually. And it was all through Zoom at the time. But between him and the rest of the guys in my small group, my God, like it saved me in a way. It saved me from like completely just wrecking everything that God had like put in place. But I had to just air it out and talk to them.

And that was the beginning of the healing over the course of like a year or more. Talking it through, being honest, not hiding the things that you're feeling and letting God work it out from there.

McKenzie Smith (1:00:18)
Yeah, I appreciate that. And we've said it before, we'll say it again, your community is important and you have to have a good solid, solid, godly community. And sometimes, you know, maybe that's separate from your church and there's nothing wrong with that. It's always good to have different, different people in different seasons of life in different circles and, and all the things. So.

Mark (1:00:25)
Yep. Yep.

Yep. Yep.

McKenzie Smith (1:00:43)
I appreciate you so much for sharing just all that you have, Mark. I know that this is a it's an interesting it's an interesting topic to share. I know you said you're going to be vague because there's there's some things that hit hit close to home and we don't want this to be, you know, gossipy or what not.

Mark (1:01:01)
And I hope it hasn't come across

like that too. To anyone listening, my pair going into this and I was talking to Mackenzie on the pre-call before we were even getting on this and talking to my wife. And my wife immediately said, why would you not tell the story?

I'm like, yeah, you're right. Cause I'm hoping that there is someone that's hearing this, that it's gonna help. This isn't me dissing the church. This is not me. But this is also just acknowledging when things are bad, acknowledge that they're bad and just also let the, yeah, don't try to cover for, you don't always have to try to cover for other people. I will say that too. You can love them without trying to like cover for them all the time. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (1:01:18)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. So I just appreciate it because I know that this was a, don't know if I should share, I don't know how much I should share, I don't know, you know? And so I just appreciate it because I know that, like I said, I've known many people in full-time ministry and like I said, it's a season of this.

Mark (1:01:53)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (1:02:03)
Decades seems like the season of burnout and kind of the rise and fall of some churches and we just, we need our churches to be strong. And that's my heart behind, you I know you even asked like, can we talk about this? And I was like, if it encourages the church to be better, absolutely, because we need our churches to be strong and we need to, you know, get away from this season of church hurt and people not talking about it and people walking away from the church and things like this, like wrecking people's faith.

Mark (1:02:12)
100%.

Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (1:02:33)
like, you know, we, and I'm not going to be the solution to that, but it helps to talk about it. And so, and not ignore it.

Mark (1:02:40)
It does. You're part of the solution though.

I say it every time. Anytime this gets talked about, it's all going to help someone. It really will.

McKenzie Smith (1:02:48)
Yeah.

So, so Mark, for someone listening who maybe wants to connect with you, follow along with all of your adventures and your photography, where can they find you on the interweb these days?

Mark (1:03:01)
On the webs, yeah. So do have a website, just www.markandersoncaptures.com. I get some portfolio work on there. I used to have galleries, but Instagram is pretty much my gallery now. And also, yeah, Mark Anderson Captures on Instagram and Facebook. But yeah, that's pretty much it. Those are my, and then I do have a YouTube as well. It's just Mark Anderson. Do a little bit of work on there as well for some video media.

McKenzie Smith (1:03:13)
Thank

Cool. Well, y'all go follow along, go check out his pictures and videos and all the things. And again, just thank you so much for being here and for sharing your story.

Mark (1:03:39)
Yeah, absolutely, Mackenzie. Thanks for having me.