061 - Finding Truth in Simplicity with Matthew Thoenen

In this episode of My Valley, His Victory, Matthew Thoenen, an adventurer and ministry worker shares his journey of connecting with God through nature, his experiences in full-time ministry, and the lessons learned from his outdoor adventures. He discusses the importance of finding God in everyday life and how to navigate valleys and challenges, particularly during his transition to Birmingham, Alabama. In this conversation, Matthew shares his journey as a missionary, focusing on the significance of the 1040 window, where the majority of unreached people groups reside. He discusses the challenges of navigating his identity and faith amidst unexpected changes in his life plans, emphasizing the importance of trust in God and personal growth. Matthew reflects on the lessons learned during difficult seasons and the need for Christians to support missionary work through prayer and financial contributions. He concludes with insights on spiritual maturity and the constancy of God's presence in all circumstances.

Connect with Matthew: Facebook

BOOK: Like A River - Granger Smith

The Balance of Gray
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

The Signpost Inn Podcast
Find peace, clarity, and companionship for your spiritual journey.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Chapters

• 15:31 [Ad] The Balance of Gray
• 16:21 (Cont.) 061 - Finding Truth in Simplicity with Matthew Thoenen
• 36:00 [Ad] The Signpost Inn Podcast
• 36:46 (Cont.) 061 - Finding Truth in Simplicity with Matthew Thoenen

Transcript

McKenzie Smith (00:01)
On today's episode of My Valley, His Victory, we have Matthew Thoenen. He is an adventurer who loves traveling, music, studying history and cultures. He has gone on many different adventures from backpacking the Colorado trail to full-time ministries overseas. He currently runs a whitewater rafting program for a nonprofit in Northern California. He lives in Birmingham, Alabama with his wife, Kinsey and elderly dog, Georgia, and enjoys kayaking, overspending on camping gear and eating Cheez-Its.

Thanks so much for being with us today, Matthew.

Matthew (00:33)
Of course, it's good to be here.

McKenzie Smith (00:35)
Yeah, I have to ask what kind of cheese it's because there's all different kinds these days. Just a classic. All right, I read that whenever you send it over and I just laughed out loud. I was like, I love it. Some people go really serious with their bios and some people don't. And I love the mix of the two and the overspending on camping gear. Let's be honest, who doesn't do that?

Matthew (00:40)
I'm just a classic. Classic cheesy guy. I can't, I can't, don't make it too complicated. Just normal cheese is okay.

Yup. iDevChatGPT

helped me write it. I was like, I don't even know what to say.

McKenzie Smith (01:07)
I know someone asked me that for a bio for something and I was like I don't even I was the same way I was like I don't know what to write I hate talking about myself well I know I read your bio but why don't you go ahead and just share a little bit about yourself

Matthew (01:14)
Yep.

Yeah, well, I mean, those four sentences pretty much encapsulate my whole life. But yeah, I'm Matthew, live in Birmingham. My wife and I have been here for a little over two years, which being in Birmingham two years is a little generous since we spent four months out of our year in California. So really we've been here like a year and a half and we're getting ready to, we're already thinking about how we're gonna

lease out this apartment and leave again for the summer out to California and yeah, work a bunch of little odd jobs in the meantime. Keep myself busy.

McKenzie Smith (02:01)
Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. And no one would know this, so I don't know why I would say if anybody knows this. But Matthew and I met last year at the job that he's talking about in California at Scott River Lodge, which is a marriage ministry.

program. They have a lodge there and they host couples for about a week a week at a time and one of the days that we were there we got to go whitewater rafting and it was actually the weekend that Matthew proposed to his his girlfriend at the time and his parents were there going through the retreat with us and so it was really fun to get to be there for that and get to meet them get to meet his wife and

just kind of be a part of this exciting but secret weekend that was going on. was like, it was like everybody at the marriage retreat knew that that's why the parents were there, but it was like, it was a funny thing when everybody met you because you had proposed the night before, I think.

Matthew (02:46)
Yeah

Yeah, it was either the day before or the day after. It was really close in there.

McKenzie Smith (03:04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, kind of talk to the listeners a little bit about what you do there and kind of maybe how you got involved with Scott River Lodge and just maybe a little bit more about J.H.

Matthew (03:21)
Yeah, so like you said, Scarborough Lodge is this marriage retreat and it's under the umbrella of JH Ranch. So JH Ranch is the big overall thing. so we have three main categories. We Scarborough Lodge is one of them. The other one is Outback, which is taking our JH program and taking it all over the country and honestly all over the world. We have it in like

15 or 16 different countries internationally from Africa, Asia. I've been to India with them before. They're just everywhere and all over the country as well. And then our third one is JH Ranch, which that's how this whole thing started. It's this high adventure family program in Northern California in the middle of nowhere. And the point of all of it is that the two people who come, it'd be any parent with

any of their teenage children come. And the point is just to grow a closer relationship with the Lord and with each other. And so everything is kind of focused around that and using High Adventure as a platform. So I got involved because I went there with my dad when I was like 17. And that's where I started following the Lord. That's like where I gave my life to him. yeah, that was about six years ago. And it's been a fun, crazy journey ever since. And I've been out there. This will be...

our fifth summer. We met working out there too. My wife and I met working in California together at this place and so we've got four or five summers together and yeah, it's great.

McKenzie Smith (04:53)
Okay.

Yeah, that's awesome. What a life-changing place. It's where you came to know the Lord. It's where you met your wife. And I'm sure there's been plenty of other things that have happened there. is J.H. the ministry in which you went overseas with? You said you did full-time overseas ministry. Is that what you went through?

Matthew (05:12)
you

No, no, I've worked for

Really just one organization is who I work for full time. And we partner with a bunch of other people. The JH International one, I was just over in India for two weeks with my best friend and we helped run their program. So yeah, not as big of a commitment.

McKenzie Smith (05:38)
Okay, so

yeah, where did you go and do full-time ministry overseas?

Matthew (05:45)
Ooh, kind of all over. started full-time ministry honestly, accidentally. I didn't realize what I was getting my feet into. But when I was a junior in high school, I basically told my mom, hey, I don't wanna go back to high school. Like I wanna drop out. And her response was, okay, well, what are you gonna do instead? And I'm like, well, I didn't think I'd get this far. know, I don't know. I no clue.

And so I thought through it and honestly my first choice was I want to backpack the Appalachian Trail. That sounds awesome. Let's do it. And my mom was like, no, you're not allowed to do that. I'm like, okay. I mean, I'm 17. That kind of makes sense. And so she wouldn't let me do that, but she ended up letting me move over to Africa to this little village in Burundi. It's this tiny country like the size of the state of Delaware.

McKenzie Smith (06:24)
Hahaha.

Matthew (06:41)
And I lived in this village of a couple thousand people with a family that we knew there. And yeah, so then I found myself, I'm 17, living in a village and was doing missions to an extent. I mean, it was, they had already their organization set up and I was just coming alongside whatever they were doing. So I was teaching kids, I was teaching in their church, I was teaching guitar. I did a bunch of odd projects and stuff. And I found, wow, I actually really liked this. This is a lot of fun.

And so I ended up, after that, I would spend like four months of my summer out in California, J-H, and then the eight months in between, I would be traveling all over. So I've been to Latin America, I've been to, I've been to Latin America a lot, probably spent a year of my life in Latin America, been to Africa probably three or four times, India, Thailand, the Middle East, and.

Some of them were with this organization called World Race. I did World Race and then I worked for them and like led trips with them. And then some of them were just, I had an opportunity, it was a friend of a friend and I'm like, totally, I'll hop in and do that, sounds great. So it's been a whole cluster of different things.

McKenzie Smith (07:57)
Yeah, wow. That's crazy. You're so young and to have gone and done all these things is crazy. it's such a cool, I'm sure, experience to just get to see new places and get to, you know, boots on the ground. Like, what does it look like to do ministry to people who don't even speak the same language? I think so often, like, I get really caught up in like, how do I do this even here? And

Matthew (08:22)
Yeah

McKenzie Smith (08:25)
you now have the barrier of like going overseas and not speaking the same language and wow that's just crazy crazy to me but i actually am somewhat familiar with the world world race i remember when i first became a a christian i i saw it and i looked into it and i was like this would be so cool if i wasn't already like i was already a working adult at that time and you know had like a full-time career and i was like yeah i don't know if i can if if i'm even the right candidate you know because i was out of college and i know it's kind of more of a

Matthew (08:37)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (08:55)
college mission thing and

Matthew (08:56)
There are people all the time

that are in their 30s and even 40s that go do it really they leave their jobs They go do it. You've got the adventure bug you love it

McKenzie Smith (08:59)
I know, but I was...

I would love it. I would love it. But yeah, and so I looked into it a little bit and I thought it was a really cool thing for people to get involved in and, you know, just create opportunities that you may not naturally have. So I know that you mentioned that you wanted to hike the Appalachian Trail.

In your bio you talked about that you've done the Colorado Trail is backpacking like a core piece of your outdoor thing. I know you also run white water rafting program. Like what's your thing in the outdoors?

Matthew (09:38)
Yeah,

that's a good question. I try to get my hand in everything, honestly. So even the whitewater rafting, I accidentally stumbled into that one too. I mean, my best friend ran the program before I did and I just wanted to hang out with him. And so that's why I started doing that. And now I've been running it for the last like three years and I'm just still there. And so that's how it's become a hobby of mine.

Yeah, backpacking is really what got me in the outdoor world though. I was a boy scout, got my Eagle Scout, know, official things like I'm officially outdoor trained or whatever. But I remember I was 10 years old and my dad was also an Eagle Scout and he showed me a picture and showed me his backpacking gear. And as a 10 year old, I saw that and I was like, that.

That is what I want to do. I don't care what it takes. That is the coolest thing in the entire world. And so, yeah, I've had a lot of trails on my mind, but I actually almost didn't go to J.H. My dad had taken all my other siblings and I was like, you know, I want to do a backpacking trip with you instead. Let's do a section of the Colorado Trail. And we thought about it and stuff. And he eventually was like, I don't think it's a good idea. Let's go to J.H. instead, which I look back and I'm like,

I'm really thankful I did, know, so I started following the Lord. But later, as time went on, I was like, I really want to do this trail still. I really want to get out there and it's just a lifelong dream to do like a multi-hundred mile trail. And my mom again was like, you can't go unless you go with someone else. And I was like, all right, fine. So I started the trail with two other guys and one guy dropped out on the first day and the other guy dropped out on like day six.

And so then I found myself doing the whole trail by myself anyway. It was exactly a month. It was like August 9 to September 9 in 2020.

McKenzie Smith (11:40)
How long did it take you?

Okay, very cool. That is a shorter section or, you know, through hike that I would like to do at some point. I think I've crossed the big ones off my mental to-do list, you know, of like, don't know that I'm going to be able to take five months away. I'm married now, you know, all the things, but that those ones that are like a month and under are where I seem to find, you know.

Matthew (12:01)
Yeah. Right.

McKenzie Smith (12:12)
find the finding enjoyment and find the the actual like I could do that and feel feel good about it you know in the season of life that I'm in but that's really cool was that had you been backpacking a lot before that like or

Matthew (12:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, mean, in Scouting, we had a very high adventurous group. So we did all sorts of backpacking trips and canoe trips overnight. You know, we pack everything in a canoe and it's the same thing as backpacking and bikepacking and every sort of packing you can think of, we tried to do it or have done it. And so we loved the outdoors, we love hiking. So I kind of had all the gear already and I was like, well, I may as well just.

McKenzie Smith (12:48)
you

Matthew (12:59)
I it, the time works now. And I was in between leaving from, I had come back from Latin America. I was in Columbia during COVID and we got emergency evac. We were on like the second to last flight that came in from the US, from South America. We were almost stuck there. We got back and then we had to do some domestic stuff. We were in Asheville, North Carolina for a while. And I was about to leave again for six months to go back to Latin America.

and I had these three months of time, and I was like, well, I may as well just go chase it and try it, and it ended up being one of the most impactful things I've ever done. But yeah.

McKenzie Smith (13:41)
Yeah, that's cool. I love that. Where did you grow up? I know you said you live in Birmingham now, but where are you originally from?

Matthew (13:49)
Born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri. And my whole family's there still.

McKenzie Smith (13:51)
Okay, okay,

okay. So whenever you were in like Eagle Scouts and all that, where were you guys going to explore?

Matthew (14:02)
well...

There's our local scout camp, which is one of the biggest in the country. So we were blessed just location wise that the St. Louis scouting community is huge. So there's tons and tons of camps, tons of resources and people. So we had a pretty big scout ranch down there and we would go canoe there all the time, backpack all the time. And Missouri honestly has a lot of state parks. There's stuff everywhere.

and they have big national forests with rivers that you can camp anywhere you want. They've got everything. I love Missouri personally. I think it's a great spot if you like the outdoors.

McKenzie Smith (14:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, I was just curious because I think of St. Louis and I obviously think of a big city and so I'm like, I don't know that I could tell you what's around there. So that's cool though that they have kind of their own property with the Scouts and that creates a lot of opportunities. But you're right, Missouri is really beautiful. It's hilly, it's not like mountainous, but it's hilly and there's a lot to do there for sure. kind of taking all this like really fun outdoorsy things

Matthew (15:12)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (15:17)
that we know and love, talk to us about how maybe some of these things play a role in your relationship with Christ.

Matthew (15:25)
Yeah, I think for me, I just really experience God in nature. That's a big part of how I see the Lord, how I hear Him, experience Him. So for me, there are times where, like I used to live in this really big city when I was in Columbia, and it was just concrete everywhere. And one time we went on this big, long adventure, took us all day, and we found this spot that was like trees and grass.

and I immediately took my shoes and socks off and just put my feet in the grass. And it's like, I connected with the Lord through that, honestly. I'm like, wow, like I'm experiencing God's love through just having my feet in grass right now. But like, I don't know, think that nature just speaks so much of who he is. The Bible says that the mountains proclaim the glory of his majesty, the skies proclaim the work of his hands, the birds sing for him.

Psalm 98 says, the rivers applaud the Lord. The rocks cry out in silence. You see this everywhere in nature of speaking a message. And so when I get out of nature, it's like, okay, everything around me is speaking the same message about who the Lord is. And that's why it's so easy to hear about in nature. At least I experienced it that way. Just because everything is speaking the same message. You don't have all these messages from social media and the world and people spewing other stuff in your face.

It's just really calm and just really synced, it all feels synced up almost.

McKenzie Smith (16:57)
Yeah, that's good. I've never had someone on here say that, like it's all speaking the same message or maybe not in those words. you're right, we're getting thrown multiple messages from multiple different places every day. And so to be somewhere where you can kind of just breathe and everything's on the same page.

Matthew (17:03)
Maybe not the end of the story, but you're right, we're getting it.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (17:16)
I like that. I'm gonna lock that one in because that's a good one that no one has that I can think of has ever said that before and we need that like I think we We need to not have these like tiny little well I never really thought about that or you know just like these little questions that you didn't even know you had sometimes can Can come through things that are getting thrown at us all the time and it can you know hurt hurt our faith a little bit in a way if you

Matthew (17:26)
We need that. We need to...

McKenzie Smith (17:46)
just keep hearing and going through all the same things. So can you share a story with us about a way in which maybe God has spoken to you or revealed himself to you in the outdoors?

Matthew (17:50)
Yeah.

specific way. Well, I remember doing the Colorado Trail. I was out in the mountains, really remote areas. mean, there's areas where you go 100 miles and don't cross a road. So you're out there in the middle of nowhere. And I remember my first like three days that I was by myself terrified me. I had never done anything that long alone. And there was one night

McKenzie Smith (18:10)
Thank

Matthew (18:30)
I was camping, I was halfway up Mount Massive, which is Colorado's second highest 14-er. And my plan was the next day at dark, I was gonna run as fast as I could to the top of Mount Massive, watch the sunrise, run back down, grab my stuff, hike like a couple miles over, and then climb Mount Elbert, which is the highest 14-er. For some reason, I like, I wanna do the two highest mountains in the same day. There's something that made me wanna do it. And the night before,

I was terrified because I'd never done a 14-er before. I was by myself for three days and I was like, what is happening? And then right before the sunset, there was this storm that started rolling in and then it's my first storm alone. I'm like freaking out. I'm like, God, what are you doing? You're ruining everything. And I remember how present the Lord was in that moment. He was present the whole trail. I mean, honestly, it's...

McKenzie Smith (19:16)
you

Matthew (19:28)
which makes sense, it's one of the most beautiful places ever, that trails. I think America's number one scenic trail is their title, their selling point or whatever. But it's true, it's so beautiful and so vast and the Lord spoke so much through it, almost like conversationally too. Because before the trail, part of my reason of doing it is I wanted to connect with the Lord. And I made a goal that I wasn't gonna use my phone at all.

So I took pictures and I had to text my mom every three or four days to tell her I was alive still. But besides that, I didn't use any internet, any music, podcast, audio book, anything. there's through hikers a lot that I think listen to stuff because it helps them think, but I wanted the silence. So I had absolutely zero outside input except what was right in front of me.

And I just remember moments where it felt like the Lord was standing next to me and we're just talking and having conversation. And it was so distraction free. There was nothing else to do but walk and talk. That's all you can do for 15 hours a day. So, man, I look back at that time on the trail and I miss it. And there's a lot of reasons I don't miss it, but I miss it for that reason. know, backpacking is secondary fun.

McKenzie Smith (20:44)
Thank

Matthew (20:54)
So it's fun after the fact. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (20:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Type two fun.

Type two fun. Yeah. No, exactly. I think that's really cool that you intentionally made that goal to not listen to, to get any outside input. And that's hard. Like, you know, being out there, I mean, I spent 20 days, I haven't spent the, a, spent a month, but that's hard to not have any outside input. And honestly, it's

Matthew (21:10)
Good.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (21:24)
It's good for us though, because it kind of resets us back to like, you know, I think back 50 years ago, like, I don't know what year the radio was invented, but like, we didn't have all these distractions, you know, not that long ago. And so we've, we've come so far into just so many distractions and it's, it's really good to like, be bored and to have to, you know, focus on the things and, you know, spend that uninterrupted time with God. Like when

Matthew (21:27)
you

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (21:52)
You know, I look back at my time on the John Muir Trail and I'm like, when am I ever gonna have that amount of time, you know, to just spend, spend with the Lord? And so it's definitely a super special time and I'm sure it was really special to you being able to just have that community and have that time with him. It's super sweet. Super sweet. So.

Matthew (22:02)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (22:19)
I know you live currently, when you're not out in California in the beautiful, beautiful area of Northern California, my goodness, beautiful Northern California where Scott River Lodge is. I know you're in Birmingham, Alabama, which is, what I would call a big city.

Matthew (22:23)
Hahaha

McKenzie Smith (22:40)
It's actually not too far from where my husband's from, so I'm super familiar with Birmingham. It's funny because I was telling him, was like, yeah, he's from Birmingham. He's from Monabella, which is like an hour south. anyways, so talk to us about kind of in your everyday life, you know, not on these big adventures, not out at summer camp in California, how you connect with God through his creation on an everyday basis.

Matthew (22:43)
Cool.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's such a good question. That's honestly more of an art form than anything else, figuring out how to see nature in the city. Yeah, in Birmingham, maybe it's just because I'm only here during the winter. I'm never here during the longer days, but during the winter, it just feels so dark and cold all the time. I'm like, God, please show me where to go. But I actually find that

if you can figure out your area, what it has to offer, and then just shift your own interests towards what the area has to offer. when I was in Missouri, there was this lake on the side of the interstate. It was just on my commute. And every day when I was coming home, I would stop on the side of the interstate.

and just stand at the lake and there was an angle you could specifically stand at that if you looked a certain direction, you wouldn't see any buildings on either side. It was just this lake. You'd have to block out the sound of the interstate behind you too. But for a moment, it's like, the sunset and this lake, this is beautiful. And in Birmingham, I get to find a spot like that that's close, but it's really...

McKenzie Smith (24:17)
Noise canceling headphones.

Matthew (24:31)
I've just decided I have to make this place fun. Cause I used to complain all the time, Birmingham's terrible. This place is so boring. I want to move back to Chattanooga. And, and it's like, okay, well that's true. Maybe. But there are definitely some places that have mountain biking trails or there's actually a lot of rivers down here. I didn't realize that until this last year, but am I okay? Great. There's rivers. I'm going to get a kayak.

and I'm gonna get into kayaking. They've got mountain bike trails, great. I'm gonna get a mountain bike and I'm just gonna enjoy it. So I've had to shift my own individual interests to just say, I'm gonna enjoy this for this season and this is gonna be my hobby whether I like it or not. And I always end up liking it. So yeah, I think that's a, has been a part of it for me.

And I just have to sit by windows all the time so I can see as many trees as possible.

McKenzie Smith (25:28)
you

Yeah, no, that's good. Like you you've had to develop new skills and new activities and instead of just pouting and saying, well, they don't have this here. It's like, no, what can I do? And maybe I have to learn a new hobby. But if I really want to be outside, then maybe that's something that I have to do. And so I think that's cool. You. Sorry, my brain.

I was gonna tell you there's a couple guys that have been on here that are from Birmingham and they have hiked the Penhoti trail which is like I think it takes like a week to hike I think it's like a hundred and something miles but anyways you should look into it

Matthew (25:58)
Thank

I

have, I have a little bit. I want to, I have, I want to so bad because it's just, it's another thing I can do, you know, but yeah, you know, there's work and life and we have a dog now. So there's, yeah, interesting, interesting things, but maybe if I don't go out to California again, I can, I can leave for a week during the summer and hike it.

McKenzie Smith (26:15)
You faked some of it.

Finding the time.

Yeah,

yeah, no, I get it. I just it was funny because me and my husband used to live in Alabama and I told both of the guys I was like, how come I didn't know about any of these things? Like they named like four trails that are just great. And I'm like, how did I not know about these things when I lived in Alabama? I thought all Alabama was was hunting and fishing. Well, now he's switching gears a little bit into the title of this podcast, My Valley, his victory would love to.

Matthew (26:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (27:07)
Love for you to share with the listeners a valley or a season of wilderness you experienced and just what God maybe taught you or prepared you for in that season.

Matthew (27:18)
Yeah, that's a good question. Honestly, my biggest Valley has been moving to Birmingham. Nothing against the city. But I actually I moved here with the intent to be here for three months. And after that, I had this whole internship with my church back in St. Louis that I was going to move back to St. Louis and and basically live in this Indian community and.

minister to people who are from the 1040 window that now live in the US with the intent that after a year of doing that, I would be sent out as a full-time missionary from that home church. And so...

McKenzie Smith (27:59)
Can

you share what the 1040 window is?

Matthew (28:03)
great question. Yeah, that's like my big passion in life. The 1040 window is the longitude lines of 10 and 40. And that's where like 98 % of unreached people groups in the whole world live. So that's Northern Africa. And then as you go across, it's the Middle East and then like India, Thailand, China.

that lower section of Asia and the Pacific Islands. Because we always send mission trips to Africa, and I'm guilty of that. I I've lived in Africa for months at a time. But there's more Christians in Africa than North America and Europe combined.

McKenzie Smith (28:34)
Okay, thanks.

What?

Matthew (28:52)
Yes. Isn't that a crazy statistic? It's true. If you take all the Christians in North America and Europe together, there's more Christians in Africa still.

McKenzie Smith (28:56)
Yes.

My mind's blown.

Matthew (29:06)
most being

sub-Sahara, south of the Sahara Desert. I mean, when I was living in this village, I came in the name of missions, but at the same time, there were more churches there than around here in Birmingham. And this is like Bible Belt to the cap, the capital of the world, you know? There really is so many Christians in Africa. so, not that we don't need missionaries going, but so much more of the work there is humanitarian.

McKenzie Smith (29:31)
you

Matthew (29:35)
which is great, still needed, absolutely. But the 1040 window, 98 % of unreached people groups are there. But when you look at funding of missions organizations across the world, 99%, every 99 cents on the dollar, however you want to look at it, of the funding goes to places that are already reached, only one cent on the dollar goes towards unreached people groups in the 1040 window, which is where 98 % of them are. So the whole thing is off balance.

McKenzie Smith (30:02)
Is it?

Yeah. Is it particularly like dangerous or like is there a is there a good reason for that?

Matthew (30:07)
It's crazy.

Well, in some areas, yes. So I did this one trip to the Middle East. I was there for probably two weeks. And we had to be really secretive because they had cameras and stuff. And they're literally like, if you talk about Christianity out in public, they will catch you. They can arrest you. Like they will do this. And I personally was like, sweet, that's awesome. I love that. I'm ready to do this thing.

But the reason we went is because it was at the, we went to the World Expo, Expo 2020. They postponed it to 2021 because of COVID, but 196 countries were represented there and they were represented by their people groups. And the UAE, which is where it was, was in Dubai, where it was, they're not as closed off and not as serious about it.

Like even they said you could, but really it was like, if you're at the expo, like within their walls, you can really talk about anything. It's just more on the street. But the reason we went was because there were people from Yemen, Oman, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Somalia, these places that if you go as a Christian, you actually could get killed. And people do.

all the time. And so our goal was we get there where all these people are and we can minister to them while we're in the safe place and then they go back and we connected them with local missionaries. It was a really cool opportunity. Anyway, we're not even talking about this. I'm just really passionate about the 1040 window.

McKenzie Smith (31:52)
Okay, yeah, sorry to get you sidetracked.

No, I appreciate it, because I knew the first time we chatted I had no idea what that was, and so wanted the listeners to at least get a little bit of insight.

Matthew (32:06)
Yeah, yeah, but my heart, all that, those statistics drive me insane. Like I just can't believe that we're there, but anyway.

McKenzie Smith (32:08)
.

Yeah. Yeah. So you were, you were

supposed to go back home and then do this internship and then go over the, go overseas after that to serve. That's where I think we left off. Sorry.

Matthew (32:19)
Yes.

Exactly. now

I would be living overseas in an unreached people group area. That was my plan for this moment in my life. And I moved down to Birmingham for just a couple months and then I was gonna leave for the summer and then move to St. Louis and do this whole thing. Well, a week before I left Birmingham, I had a pastor of the church I was going to here basically say, hey, I want you

to move back to Birmingham and we're gonna do the exact same thing. You're gonna teach our classes here, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that, and then within a year, a year and a half, we're gonna send you out as our full-time missionary. And I was like, easy. I was in love with this girl down here. She was living here for her job and I was like, well, I get the same thing. I can move on down, that sounds great. So I did it. I canceled everything in St. Louis, canceled all my plans, had planned to move back to Birmingham.

went out to J.H. for the summer, and then it came around to be August, September, whenever it was, and I was driving back from California, and the next week I was starting my internship here in Birmingham with this church, and that was my full-time thing. That was my plan, that's what I had set. I had it all planned out, and I made it to about Colorado. So I'm halfway home, and I get a call, and basically this pastor that offered me all that stuff was fired.

from the church, effective immediately. And that caused this whole church split and all this drama. And it was pretty painful, because I found myself in the middle, because I had really good friends on one side and I had really good friends on the other. And on top of that, all of my plans just got thrown away. Like it's all gone now. And so that was pretty hard for me. That was, it was a hard moment.

in my walk with the Lord and also just personally with identity. I still struggle and I work on not making my identity what I do and to have nothing planned out. So then I spent the fall. I had a little part time thing, two little part time things, but for the most part I had nothing to do and I had to sit and think and it caused so much wrestling.

that fall, was a really, really hard moment in life. I mean, as time has gone on, on the other side of all this kind of, know, still rough, I still go to that church and it's painful. I took a couple months off. I was like, I can't do this right now. And in that couple months I took off, my wife and I decided to try out a different church.

McKenzie Smith (35:14)
Thank

Matthew (35:19)
And we decided, all right, we'll commit to going here for a couple months. And the first day we committed, their worship pastor came out as having this like two year long affair. And it caused a church split there. And we're like, oh my gosh, like what is happening? And so we felt like we were part of two churches. And every time we committed to something, the whole thing just blew up. And so we took a little bit, a little break of just like,

What do we do? And my wife has been a lot more gracious. I'm learning from her a lot in this whole process. But we've had to learn to walk in so much forgiveness and understanding and just even not understanding. Like, I don't know what's going on with this. And I just have to choose to say I don't need to understand everything. Like, your plans aren't my plans. Your ways are not my ways. I need to be secure in the Lord. And so...

I'm just going to trust, I have a lot of blind trust in people, blind trust in leadership, because if I try to figure stuff out too much, it kind of hurts. So yeah.

McKenzie Smith (36:27)
Yeah,

absolutely. having, you know, your identity wrapped up in all of this and having kind of the rug pulled out from underneath you of all of the plans that I want to say like you made, but also given that it's ministry, like it's somewhat.

somewhat the Lord's plans, you know, too. Yeah, I guess like, I can wrap my mind around if it was a secular thing, you know, and the carpet was pulled out. How has, you know, this been like, well, God, thought that this was what you were calling me to as a, you know, it's,

Matthew (36:56)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (37:20)
the great great commission, you know, we're all called to do this in a way. It's not just your job. It's also, you know, this this command that we have from the Lord. Like, how do you how do you reconcile that piece of it of like it wasn't just a job? You know, it was. A command that God gives us all.

Matthew (37:40)
Yeah.

Right. Well, yeah, I used to when I was, you know, 17 and living in a village, it was really easy for me to say, everybody needs to go. Everyone needs to go overseas. Everyone needs to do this. Look at me. I'm 17 and I can do this. And now I'm on this side of it. And I'm like, well, to an extent, yes, we are all set for sure. But I think that we're called to so many different areas. Like I have a friend who is

McKenzie Smith (37:45)
.

Matthew (38:13)
in the insurance world and how broken that world is. He does full-time ministry with his job. My dad even, he's a financial advisor and he does full-on prayer times with some of his clients because they see him as his pastor because he's just such a teacher and he just loves people and he sees it as a ministry because he's like, well, I deal with their money and there's always

Craziness going on with that whether someone died someone's going to college life transition losing a job Anytime people are in crisis typically they have to call me because I manage their money and so he gets this platform and I've just found that Maybe not everyone is sent to go and we can be senders as well and intercessors as well I mean prayer prayer for this if you really believe your faith and you believe in prayer then

you should be praying for some of this stuff. I've got an alarm that goes off at 10.02 every day, morning and night. And it's for Luke 10.2, which Jesus says, the harvest is ripe, but the labors are few. Therefore, beseech the Lord of the harvest that he would send more labors into his field. And so at 10.02 in the morning, at 10.02 at night, there's an alarm that goes off that my wife and I pray for it. And it's like, that's a little simple thing even that you as a Christian are being called to be sent.

and are also called to pray for people who are being sent. so just finding little ways that you can even contribute or even like tithe, not all fully going to a church. Give to an organization that's sending to people to places that are unreached, not just the Tanzanian Water Fund. It's like there's other things going on, which not that you can't give to the Tanzanian Water Fund. I don't even know if that exists, but stuff like that.

McKenzie Smith (39:59)
Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Matthew (40:12)
So I've had to really, I've had to wrestle that in my heart of like, this was my identity. mean, living in Birmingham, this is my first time not living out of a backpack ever since I've been in high school. For like three or four years there, everything I owned was in my backpack and that's just how I lived. And now I've got an apartment and all this stuff and wife and it's like, my gosh, like this is such a life shift even.

which I think also plays into the identity factor. Like my whole life looks completely different than I ever thought it would in the last two years, so.

McKenzie Smith (40:39)
Yeah.

Yeah. Do you... how long ago was this when kind of all this flipped flipped upside down?

Matthew (40:49)
you

That would be

about a year and a half ago, so was like fall of 2023.

McKenzie Smith (41:01)
Okay, so let me ask you this piece of it. Do you think that

life would have continued on the way that it has, you know, getting married. I know you already knew, Kinsey, but getting married to Kinsey, like would she have, was she on board with this? Like, do you think at all, maybe, you know, like that's a piece of the puzzle? Is like this, this new season of life that God has you in?

Matthew (41:34)
Yes, yes and no. I see both sides of it, honestly. She was full on, she was on board for me to go through with this plan and would have supported me the whole way. you know, if we were married and I left, she would have come with me and she's full on board to do it in the future even, just look in a different way, you know. Which I'm really blessed to have a wife that we have similar callings in life.

McKenzie Smith (41:56)
Okay.

Matthew (42:03)
But yes, it would look different because, know, or maybe not would look different, but so there's basically that side of it where it could be different, it could have gone that way and it would have been fine. And I'm on this side too, and of what actually happened and it's like, well, I learned a lot personally about myself that I wouldn't have learned. And I'm really thankful for that, honestly.

Some of these lessons that I've learned in the last year and a half, I feel like have really started reshaping who I am just as a person, as an adult growing up. And now my wife, Kinsey, is now pursuing her masters in counseling, which has been a lifelong dream that she's had. And I don't think she would have ever done it if we weren't here. And we love our life. We love our life here, truly. We're neighbors with some of our best friends and we just have a really good community.

The church aspect has been hard and that's really about it. Everything else for some plus. It's such a good life. So I really can't complain all that much. But yeah.

McKenzie Smith (43:15)
Yeah, yeah, I was just curious, you know,

I didn't know where she stood on this on this whole thing, or even if you guys were serious enough to have been, you know, having that conversation yet and, all of those things. And so, yeah, just always curious, you know, like, is, is this, you know, what took place of maybe that, that dream, like, could they have coexisted together? Who knows? But yeah, anyways, not to not to like,

Matthew (43:41)
Yeah, I don't know. I love my life. I'm really

happy with the way it went.

McKenzie Smith (43:44)
Yeah, not

to like speculate and say like this wouldn't have happened if, but I just was more curious if you guys had like had the conversation of like, I really feel called to go, you know, and serve overseas. And, know, if we continue down this dating path, you know, cause I think we in kind of that, that world, we're like trying to like please and appease and, know, kind of like sell ourselves, you know, while we're dating someone. And it's like,

own but God's calling me to go to like this really undeveloped small country and you know there's maybe maybe not so many people that would have been on board with that piece of it.

Matthew (44:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, that was a requirement. I mean, my life, when we were friends for a while, I mean, we've known each other for probably five or six years, but we've known each other a while. And that was a pretty big requirement is you have to be willing to say yes to the Lord to do anything. And the fact that she was interested in me, I mean, even when I had my first apartment here in Birmingham for the three months, I still lived out of my backpack.

Like I slept on the floor. I didn't have a bed. I slept on my camping mat and sleeping bag in the apartment. And so she saw my lifestyle. So if she still was willing to date me, she's a little crazy. She's crazy enough to date me. So she's willing to do anything.

McKenzie Smith (45:04)
Thank

That's funny. That's funny, but it's good

advice. Like, let them, like, let them know you're non-negotiable. It's like, you know, this is not a dating episode, but, you know, it could be like, you know, to find a partner that's on board and is going to say yes to where the Lord calls you, because that's a... you never know where that might be. So, Matthew, for...

Matthew (45:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (45:40)
Maybe a listener that's going through a similar season you can you can pick and choose the part of it maybe that you want to speak to but If they're going through a similar season what's a word of advice or piece of encouragement that you would give someone who's maybe like in the middle of it can't see You know the light at the end of the tunnel

Matthew (46:02)
Yeah. Wow. Well.

A verse that stands out is Psalm 145. And the reason that this Psalm stands out is just because this is, I think, the Lord's life verse for me. I mean, this has been my life verse for a long time since I started following the Lord. I've had it taped up in my shower, and every time I shower, I have to read the whole thing and think about it. And what I found in this season that's really hard is...

I always used to be growing and I really value knowledge and all this stuff. And the Lord was taking me back to such simple things of like, even me being like, man, the Lord calls us to forgive. And just the idea, the simple idea of forgiveness and what that carries and walking in that. so Psalm 145 says, the Lord sustains all who fall and raises up all who are bowed down.

the eyes of all look to you and you give them their food in due time. You open your hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing. And I, you know, have prayed that for a long time. Like the Lord holds everything in his hand, all of our desires, everything. And he opens his hand and satisfies the desire of every living thing. That's every animal, every...

plant tree, like he's just in all creation. And verse 18 of this says, the Lord is near to all who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth. And it's just this Lord, I have to call on you and you see my heart, you see I'm truthful, you see I'm hurting. You see this whole thing is gross and just a nasty situation and I don't know what to do. And Lord, you see that.

and you hold every desire that I have and every pain I have, you hold it and you open your hand to satisfy my desires. And so you are compassionate and just believing these things, almost saying it as like a declaration.

You love me. You care for me. And the very last verse of the Psalm says, my mouth will speak the praise of the Lord and all flesh will bless his holy name forever and ever. And that to me is a command. Like I'm saying my mouth will speak the praise of the Lord and I will bless his name. Even when times are hard, it's like, Lord, I'm going to praise you.

McKenzie Smith (48:41)
Yeah.

Matthew (48:48)
I don't feel it. I don't like it a lot. But I will praise you because that's just that's who you are and you're good no matter what. And so that mean that verse has been around these verses have been around for you know in my life for years. But he's taking me back to these really simple phrases and it's just like profound expanding on him. And that's really how I see this whole last two years. It's a maturing process.

McKenzie Smith (49:12)
Yeah.

Matthew (49:18)
It's growing things that are deeper than just growth. And I always used to see myself as like, need to grow. And it's easy for Christians to think that. I need to grow in my Bible verse knowledge. I need to grow in this, which all those are really amazing, awesome things. But like I need this fruit in my life, which fruit is amazing and fruit is part of it. But there's seasons. I mean, if a tree looked at itself and defined its success by the amount of leaves it produced, then every winter it would get depressed.

McKenzie Smith (49:49)
Yeah.

Matthew (49:49)
because

it's gonna look at itself and say, wow, I did all this work and now I'm down to nothing. And it's like, no, you're growing rings on your tree trunk and that's maturity. It's not the amount of leaves you have, it's the amount of rings you have on your tree trunk. And so that's a thing that can't be taken away. It's a thing that's deeper than outside appearance. You can't tell how many rings a tree trunk has on it just by looking at it. And...

McKenzie Smith (50:01)
Yeah.

Matthew (50:15)
That's years, it's the hardening. That's the real maturity growth process. And so I've had to look at myself and see all these hard things and be like, I'm not a missionary anymore and I don't do this anymore. And my spiritual walk doesn't look like this. know, I'm praying for healings even. I don't see healings in my everyday life anymore. I don't see this fruit. It's like, okay, Matthew, it's deeper than that. You know, you're growing rings, you're maturing.

McKenzie Smith (50:40)
Yeah.

Matthew (50:43)
You don't have to judge yourself by your actions and fruit all the time.

McKenzie Smith (50:47)
Yeah,

that's a really, really great analogy. Thank you for sharing that. It reminds me of there's a book called Like a River that Granger Smith wrote. And he's he's an ex country singer and now he's a pastor and he talks about trees, trees in that book. And there's a kind of chapter where he walks through his own analogy of how his life is like a tree.

Matthew (50:52)
There.

McKenzie Smith (51:15)
And so I appreciate you sharing that because it was different, but it reminded me of that. And I haven't thought about that book in a little while. It's a really, really great book. And I think it's so true. Like we just want to be in growth all the time. I know I'm guilty of that. I know that many Christians are guilty of that. like, I should always be growing. I should always be, all the things. it's like, like you said, seasons are so important.

nature goes through seasons. You look around, you said it's cold and it's dark and it's like that doesn't change anything about you know the fact of who God is and you know I've been reading as I was thinking about this I've been reading through through Genesis and reading the story of Joseph and something that has really stuck out to me this time around was

Matthew (51:46)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (52:04)
You know, it says in almost every, every season it says God was with him. And it's like, regardless of whether he was being sold, you know, as a slave or he was in prison or whatever. And so it's really challenged me to think about like, regardless of your circumstances, like that doesn't change the fact that God is with you. And I think so often, you know, that's the lens that we see is, know, our circumstances determine X and it's like, no.

Matthew (52:09)
Mm.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (52:31)
You have to remember what's constant and what's true. And I think it's beautiful that you shared some of those verses that are what may seem simple and those easy promises that we should all know, but we don't keep those things first. And I think that's really important. And I know that challenges me to just kind of go back and meditate.

Matthew (52:48)
Mmm.

McKenzie Smith (52:54)
and kind of, you know, just lean on some of those simple truths that the Bible does say and not just, you know, keep chasing this like deeper understanding. It's like, do you really, do you really understand this? Like, let's go back there. And so thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. So I know that you don't do a whole lot of social media, but is there anywhere in the world that someone could find you if they wanted to connect with you, Matthew?

Matthew (53:03)
Yeah, right.

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, I have an email. It's my first name and last name at Gmail. But maybe I shouldn't share that on the public sphere. don't really know. I have a Facebook. I don't use it except for Facebook Marketplace and a white water rafting group that I'm in.

McKenzie Smith (53:28)
Ha

you

Yeah.

Matthew (53:53)
That's really all I use it for. But if you direct message me, I can answer.

McKenzie Smith (53:56)
Alright,

so go to Birmingham and find Matthew because I admire that about you though, I will say that. remember your mother-in-law was the one who reached out and was like, you should have Matthew on. And I was like, but she was like, but he doesn't have social media. And I'm like,

Matthew (54:01)
Right. I'll send you a coordinate.

McKenzie Smith (54:19)
That's okay. I think that's really cool that people like young people don't have social media these days. So anyways, I admire that quality about you because you probably are a lot more, you're a lot less distracted and you're probably doing better things with your time than doom scrolling.

Matthew (54:27)
Thanks.

I wish. I just distract

myself with other stuff. I used to be a Snapchat addict in high school and then when I moved to Africa there was no Wi-Fi and so I've had years of just purging social media. So actually in real life it's like now that I'm back in the real world if you just don't start it up again you're good. know, like just keep it where you don't use it.

McKenzie Smith (54:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's funny. Well, thank you, Matthew, so much for being here and just for sharing your story and walking us through the season. Because I know that a lot of people can relate to, you know, having kind of a plan and then having that whole thing flip upside down and trying to navigate that. so I just appreciate you being here and sharing your story with us.

Matthew (55:25)
Of course, it's pleasure.