070 - Where Does My Help Come From? with Chris Cameron

In this conversation, Chris Cameron shares his journey as a naturalist and educator, emphasizing the importance of connecting with nature and the deeper life lessons that arise from these experiences. He discusses his work with seniors, the joy of exploring the outdoors, and how his background in theology informs his understanding of nature and spirituality. Through personal anecdotes, Chris illustrates the profound impact of nature on his faith and relationships, particularly in moments of struggle and redemption. In this conversation, McKenzie Smith and Chris Cameron explore themes of personal change, identity, grief, and the healing power of nature. They discuss the importance of personal choice in overcoming addiction, the challenges of navigating identity after loss, and the beauty found in nature as a source of hope and healing. Chris shares his journey from being a pastor to a naturalist, emphasizing the significance of unconditional love and the need to embrace the beauty around us, even in difficult times.

Connect with Chris: www.natureupclose.com

Transcript

McKenzie Smith (00:00.13)
On today's episode of My Valley, His Victory, we have Chris Cameron. He is a dedicated naturalist, consultant, and educator who helps individuals discover their connection to the natural world. As a licensed master falconer and avid birder, he enjoys introducing others to the wonders of wildlife, such as locating elusive short-eared owls. With a background in science and a degree in theology, Chris fosters engaging conversations that embrace diverse perspectives.

Over his career, he has guided thousands of children on nature adventures and rekindled the passion for the environment and countless adults. Beyond his professional endeavors, Chris cherishes his role as pop nature and delights in spending time with his grandson Theo. Thanks so much for being with us today, Chris.

Chris Cameron (00:53.428)
My pleasure to be with you.

McKenzie Smith (00:55.37)
Yes. So I know I just read your bio, but why don't you go ahead and just share a little bit more about yourself and who you are.

Chris Cameron (01:01.729)
You know what was funny when I was listening to that, it's always funny to hear someone read your bio, but what I'm doing lately is I'm spending a lot of time in nature with old folks, with retired people. And while I've spent a lifetime working with kids and teenagers, working with people older than myself is really fun. They're really intelligent and they love being out there just like the kids.

McKenzie Smith (01:28.918)
Yeah, so kind of talk to us what you're doing with them and kind of how you got into that.

Chris Cameron (01:35.957)
Right, well, my retirement gig is, I've been retired for about six years and somebody called and said, hey, can you lead a group of seniors in Yosemite? And I said, sure, be happy to. So I did that for about three weeks, a few years back. And then I said, hey, I really enjoyed that. That was fun. Do you have any more? What would you? And then they sent me.

a schedule of 28 weeks. And I thought, my gosh, that's a job. I don't want a job, I just retired. But I did grab a handful of weeks in both Yosemite, Sequoia, and Kings Canyon. And I take seniors out to enjoy nature.

McKenzie Smith (02:19.362)
Yeah, is it mostly bird watching or what kind of, what do you take them out to do?

Chris Cameron (02:23.359)
No, yeah, just a regular, people, so people sign up to, when you get old, you have this concept of bucket list. You know, I want to see a few things before I die. And the older you get, the closer that bucket comes. And so they say, I want to see Yosemite. I heard that's the best place. I've got to see that. Or the big trees in Sequoia or the deepest Canyon, that Kings Canyon. I've got to go see that.

So it's fun because when we're on the bus and going to those places, I say, why did you come? Cause it's a bucket list. What does that mean? And they said, well, we got to see this before we kicked the bucket. And I said, so, so what, how do you really expect this to change your life? This is a vacation and you're going to see these things. So, so what is it going to change in your life? And so we get to see the beautiful trees and the beautiful mountains.

And I do all the natural history and teach them all of those things, the geology and forestry and all those subjects. But then I try to talk about meaning of life issues because the meaning of life is getting closer and closer for them as they come to the end. So, you know, if you have a hundred years here and you are right here on the dot where you're like 80 years old, that whole line.

This part we're not going to talk about, it's just this part here. And so we get to have good discussions. And I do have a background as a pastor too, so I was a pastor for many years. So I get to weave in important thoughts about God and meaning of life. So it's really good, really fun.

McKenzie Smith (03:52.013)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (04:07.734)
Yeah, what a interesting kind of culmination of a couple of things. know, your people are there and they're thinking about the end of their life because they want to see all these things. But you get to bring in this other perspective of like, hey, let's talk about something a little bit deeper here. And they may be, I don't know, in your experience, are they more receptive or less less receptive to that conversation because

Chris Cameron (04:25.43)
Right.

McKenzie Smith (04:35.662)
that is a thought, like I am going to die in the next.

Chris Cameron (04:39.831)
They are wildly receptive. So it's really fun because not only do we get to talk about the incredible, beautiful nature things, but I say, know, John Muir considered this a temple and here we are cathedral spires, you know, what's a cathedral, you know, and we get to see all these lovely places. And so what does it matter if you collect

McKenzie Smith (04:44.174)
Mm.

McKenzie Smith (04:58.37)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Cameron (05:09.659)
all the stickers from all the national parks. How does that make your life better? A lot of them have the passport books, you know, and they want to get that sticker at the passport. But what if you what if you fill that whole book up? Is that it? Did you win? You know, or or is there something else to it? And so at meal times, we get off the natural history subject and and talk about meaning of life and they're very, very open to it.

McKenzie Smith (05:37.846)
Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. What a special opportunity you have there in those parks and with those people.

Chris Cameron (05:45.623)
It's probably the most fun I've had in my whole career to, but like you said, it's this crush of things together. So I had, when I was in college, I was studying science and then I felt like, no, I better go into ministry. So I dropped out of my science world and went into ministry, got my degree in theology and worked in churches for about 15 years. And then,

due to one of those terrible church blitz, you know, things that happen, I found myself looking for another job. So I got a job with the school system teaching nature to kids. And so then I started working for the California Department of Education, providing environmental education resources for teachers. And then I took on the directorship of a camp where I started environmental education programs for kids. So,

So now I did that for, I don't know, 17 years or something. And so now that I'm retired, I get to mix these two loves and they've always been my loves, you know, a love of God and a love of nature and those two loves when they get mixed together here at your happiest place. so that's where I'm at right now.

McKenzie Smith (07:04.556)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you just covered that because that was going to be my next question was, you know, it sounds like you were a pastor and you went to school for that. And so how did this, you know, love for nature kind of come about? And you kind of just explained it to us without me even asking. So is is the outdoors, you know, you said you wanted to go to school for science and that sort of thing. Is that something that you've you've always had a passion and a love for? Were you, you know, always in the outdoors growing up?

Chris Cameron (07:12.801)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (07:34.112)
kind of talked to us about where that love and desire came from.

Chris Cameron (07:37.387)
Yeah, I grew up in the city in LA and we would go on vacation to Yosemite. And so I have pictures of me in Yosemite before I was one year old being dipped in the Merced River, the River of Mercy, right? So I've been dipped in the river early on and always loved the trees, always loved the mountains, always loved that river. And so we were there every summer.

And I remember being home, I was probably, I don't know, four or five years old and I was digging in the garden because I was trying to look for where the dirt end because my whole life with concrete and asphalt. And my mom said, what are you doing? I said, well, I know they have to bring the dirt in from someplace like Yosemite. I know there's dirt out there, but there's not any dirt here. So it's funny because I grew up as a city kid with a deep, deep love of nature. And that just continued.

McKenzie Smith (08:23.253)
Ha!

McKenzie Smith (08:34.678)
Yeah. Is most of your love for nature or just where you have been in California or are you someone, you know, kind of like the people that you lead that have been all over the country or all over the world traveling?

Chris Cameron (08:48.181)
Yeah, I have traveled. I've hiked around in Australia and all through Europe. I've been in Africa and China. So I've been around in different places in the world, but obviously California is the best place. There's no question. the Sierra is the best of the best. And so when I was a kid, I went hiking with my cousins and we hiked in the mountains. And we, as soon as you get away from your parents, know,

what, about 12 or 13, you start getting this little independent streak. And so my cousins and I would go backpacking in the mountains and we hiked the John Muir Trail when I was, I think I was 16 years old in like 1976 or something. And it was just the two of us, my cousin and I just hiking along down the trail and just couldn't get enough of it.

McKenzie Smith (09:39.712)
Yeah, I remember we talked about this on our our intro call and I was like, yeah, I hiked the John Muir Trail last year because we were talking about your experience in Kings Canyon and Sequoia and Yosemite. I said, I've been to Yosemite a couple of times, but I've only been to Kings Canyon and Sequoia through the John Muir Trail. And you go, yeah, I did that in 1976 or whatever. And I was like, that's crazy. I cannot imagine. I just, you know, I've only started backpacking in the last.

five years and things have obviously changed so much. even like went to the thrift store and I have it to hang in my office at some point, but one of those like big framed backpacks, know, just, and I'm just like, I can't even wrap my brain around, you know, the gear back then. And then I guess my question for you, and it's not even related to this podcast, but like, how did you guys resupply food or did you just carry everything you needed for the whole entire John Mayer trip?

Chris Cameron (10:13.537)
Yeah.

Chris Cameron (10:30.057)
I can only care about 12 or 13 days worth of food. So we did have to resupply. But back then there wasn't a freeze dried food business. There was no mountain house sort of stuff for, and if they did have some, was really terrible. It was so bad. So, so we brought in canned food, know, canned food and, you know, a top ramen or dried rice or instant mashed potatoes.

McKenzie Smith (10:39.564)
Nope.

McKenzie Smith (10:47.15)
you

McKenzie Smith (10:50.862)
Yeah.

Chris Cameron (10:58.871)
For breakfast, would have instant breakfast. There was a powder instant breakfast that we would mix with powdered milk and we'd just drink that. So yeah, we just carried a lot. And we did have a stop because that was a long hike. So we dropped food at like Red's Meadow, Devil's Postpile area.

McKenzie Smith (11:15.563)
Okay.

Okay, okay, very cool. That's, I would love to go back in time and just, and just see what it was like, because I think about all the gear now and how small it is and how, you know, compact and just the, technology, you know, obviously that has changed and just to see all of that in action, I think would be, would be really fun. Yeah, you guys were a lot stronger back then.

Chris Cameron (11:38.283)
Yeah, it was a bit heavier.

It was heavier stuff.

McKenzie Smith (11:44.278)
We're weak now. We need ultra light backpacks and things.

Chris Cameron (11:49.303)
Right right when I finished the John Mayer trail I thought well, I've heard this thing They're they're trying to get this thing called the Pacific Crest Trail together And so they didn't have any continuous maps so you had to patch it together yourself, but I had a friend do it and like 1977 and And I had all the maps and everything ready to go trying to figure out food drops and I was gonna do it But but I I never did it, but you know, I'm not dead yet. So

McKenzie Smith (11:57.678)
L

McKenzie Smith (12:07.437)
Okay.

McKenzie Smith (12:18.382)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. thank you for taking us down that journey because I think that's super fun. And to think about, you know, this was a brand new thing, you know, doing long distance trails like the Pacific Crest Trail. When you were growing up, that was new and that was you were having to piece it together even still at that point. That's crazy to me.

Chris Cameron (12:19.819)
might still be in the future.

Chris Cameron (12:35.115)
Right.

Chris Cameron (12:41.675)
Right. Right. And now, you know, I look at podcasts like our, our, YouTubes like Dixie, who's done the Appalachian trail, the Pacific Pacific crest trail and continental divide trail and all over the place. It's just amazing.

McKenzie Smith (12:49.923)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (13:00.204)
Yeah, yeah, there's a, it's a, it's a whole movement now, but well, Chris, I would love for you to share with us. You've talked to us a little bit about your love for the outdoors and you've talked to us a little bit about your love for theology and for Christianity, but I would love for you to talk to us about kind of how these two things come together and how the outdoors plays a role specifically in your relationship with Christ.

Chris Cameron (13:04.191)
Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Chris Cameron (13:12.663)
Bye.

Chris Cameron (13:25.537)
Yeah, that's the, and I've actually been thinking about that for this reason. And, you know, I was in the church world for a long time and I was a pastor to teens and I worked at this church. was, I don't know, like 13 years or 12 or 13 years. And then after this crunchy church split, you know, my last thing was to take a group of teenagers. I was training these teenagers to work with kids.

And so I took them on a backpack trip. And so we're up on the backpack trip, like two or three days after I got fired, but I was required to stay on for another couple of weeks. You know, it was really, really ugly, messy stuff. So I was taking them on the backpack trip and I sent them up the trail ahead of me. And I was looking at this incredible view of the Sierra and I just sat down cause I was by myself and I started crying. And because I...

McKenzie Smith (14:07.064)
you

Chris Cameron (14:23.903)
I thought I would be in the church work my whole life and now my life was being turned upside down. And the thing that came to me was this verse in Psalm 121. says, I lift my eyes up to the mountains. Where does my help come from? My help comes from you Lord, maker of the heavens and creator of the earth. And talks about how I'll protect you in the sun and in the moon and all that.

And that just gripped me. That's probably one of the lowest points, know, being fired from a church, you know, it's a weird situation. And so there was this mix of God and nature right there. I'm in the mountains leading a group of teens on a training hike so they could do ministry to children and I'm hurting and I'm calling out to God.

because I'm in the mountains and remember that verse Psalm 121. I remember that as just a really pivotal time of what yeah, where does my help come from? Does it come from my bank account? Does it come from my education? Does it come from my background or personality? You know, my help comes from you Lord, maker of the heavens and creator of the earth. And that's just always stuck with me as

You know, you can sour on different things, like you can sour on the church or you can sour on family or you can sour on this and that. But, but there's this eternal presence of God that, that is there to lift you up and hold you. Another time that I remember being really in a hard time was when my son, he had been an alcoholic for a long time and

And alcoholism is such a tricky thing. just grabs you by the foot and tears, tears you down and takes you in this vortex, you know, and, and you can't give advice to someone who's not looking for advice. know, you, from the outside, you can say, if you did this, this, and this, your life would be better, but nobody's really interested in that. They have to be ready for that. And so, I remember just going to my,

McKenzie Smith (16:27.981)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (16:34.744)
Mm.

McKenzie Smith (16:44.088)
Yeah.

Chris Cameron (16:48.637)
son and giving him a great big hug and saying you know I will always love you and you don't have to stop drinking for me to love you I will always love you and if you continue on this direction you're going to die and I will be really really sad give you the best funeral I can and it will wreck my life but I will never stop loving you and you don't have to change for me to love you I love you now and I

always love you. And that just comes from what Jesus has given us, you know, says, we love him because he first loved us. And his love for us is really an unconditional love. You know, there's a verse in Jeremiah 31 that says, you know, I will love you with an everlasting love and that love of God.

If you take it in and experience it, then you can give it out. And when you give it out, not requiring people to be different. What's that verse that says? While we were still sinners, Christ died for us, right? Didn't die for us after we were fixed. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so,

McKenzie Smith (17:53.676)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (18:07.96)
Yep.

McKenzie Smith (18:11.822)
Mm.

Chris Cameron (18:17.079)
If God loves us with that kind of love and we can give that love to other people, that makes a difference in this world. So there you go. There's a couple thoughts.

McKenzie Smith (18:24.542)
Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing those and for even just the scriptural kind of backing that goes with it. And I think what a to go back to your first story, you know, what a what a great verse to come to mind, you know, whenever you're standing there in the mountains and you look up and it's like.

exactly the answer that you needed, know, without even knowing that you needed it. But it was like, I, and what an odd, can't even begin to wrap my mind around that being, you know, let go from a job, but yet still having to fulfill a part of that job and having all of those emotions while having to, you know, be.

pouring into the young people as well. That's kind of a, seems to be a wild, wild experience and probably took a lot of strength and courage to even go and show up and be there. And so for God to meet you there and to remind you of that verse and to kind of start thinking about some of those things like.

Maybe my help was coming from my title. You know, it was ministry. Yes. But maybe it was this, this title, you know, where your bank account, like you said, and all of those things. And so what, what a good thing to just focus on and meditate on in that time and really lean into God. And then, you know, secondly, the story with your son, man, what a, what a special moment. I'm sure he will, he will never forget that moment that you.

Chris Cameron (19:55.439)
He has been sober for seven years. And just a couple of days ago, we were hiking in the White Mountains on the other side of the Sierra. And to hike with my adult sons who are now men and hike in the ancient bristle cone forest and then go, you know, search out some warm hot springs in the Kern River and to be with my boys who are not boys, they're men.

McKenzie Smith (20:23.342)
You

Chris Cameron (20:24.375)
was really incredible and to know that they're both alive and well and still following God, you know, and now following God is great thing.

McKenzie Smith (20:33.344)
Yeah, but I think you are right, you know, people...

we on the outside can know all the right things or we can, you know, have all the good ideas of like, this is what you could do and so on and so forth. But you're, you're so right in any addiction, like until that person is ready to make a change, doesn't matter how good the advice is. It doesn't matter how good the rehab is. It doesn't matter how good whatever they go to is like, it has to be a personal decision that they're like, no, I want to change. I'm not changing. Cause anytime you change for somebody else or for something else, like chances are it's going to

that that motivation is going to dwindle at some point. so and I think that's, know, exactly, you know, sometimes what what people need in that is just I love you no matter what.

Chris Cameron (21:06.423)
not sick.

McKenzie Smith (21:18.914)
I think that's one of our deepest needs, you know, is to feel loved and to feel loved unconditionally and not, and you know, I think that's why, you know, God knows exactly what we want and that's why he loves us that way. But to see that in the flesh, you know, too, from someone like your father, I think is, is so valuable. And I know he'll never forget that moment and that that probably was very helpful.

in that time versus having a dad who was like, you need to get it together and here's all the things you need to do. And, you know, just kind of trying to do it for them. So thank you so much for sharing those. So where in California do you live now?

Chris Cameron (22:00.033)
I live on the central coast in the San Luis Obispo County in the little town called Los Osos next to Montane de Oro State Park.

McKenzie Smith (22:06.86)
Okay.

Okay, very cool. So wouldn't really call that an urban environment, but I know that you did live in LA at one point. So I always like to ask.

our guests for a practical piece of advice that people can start connecting with God on an everyday basis through his creation while being in a more urban environment because you know we can't always be in Yosemite National Park or in Sequoia National Park and so what are some some little ways that we can kind of bring these two things together on an everyday basis.

Chris Cameron (22:41.079)
Well, there's a couple of apps that are really good. The Seek app or the Merlin Bird ID app. And those are both free apps and you can go to your local park and even in the most concrete jungle city, there's a piece of green someplace and there are birds flying someplace. And you can press that Merlin Bird ID app and listen to the bird singing and it says, this is a such and such. And you can start.

IDing birds even in the city. Birds by ear, birds by sight. In fact, there's a guy, the urban birder in England who focuses on, Lindo is his name, focuses on urban birding. So there's birds in the city and there's green in the city. And when you see something green and you hold up the Seek app, it'll help you understand what that plant is. And then you can get a little more background and you can find out.

the tough city birds and the tough city plants. And there's nature in the most urban jungle. So take a walk. It's obviously, you gotta get out. It's not gonna happen inside the walls. You gotta get out. And once you get out, there are tenacious weeds that are living in the cracks of the pavement. If you drive on the 405, there are weeds growing in the median of the 405 freeway.

So there are, there's nature all around you.

McKenzie Smith (24:12.044)
Yeah, absolutely. I had never heard about this Merlin bird app until a, guess recently she's also a naturalist shared about it. And then my friend, I would just went on a backpacking trip in the desert and she had it on her, on her phone. And we kept hearing this bird at our camp and I don't remember what she thought it was, but I said, I kind of think it's an owl. Like it was this weird,

It sounded like a bird, it had this tiny like it sounded like a hoot. Like, you know, it just had that had that feel to it. I was like, I think that's an out. Keep in mind, I know zero about birds, like absolutely nothing. And so she got out her phone and she played it. And I was like, totally expecting it not to work, especially because it was like kind of far away. You know, like we we kind of had to like wait to hear it. And it was very much in the distance. And nope, it was very much like a spotted something owl.

and I was like, and it worked without service. Like we didn't have cell phone service. And I was like, this is actually really cool. I was highly impressed.

Chris Cameron (25:14.741)
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's quite amazing. And I see these little memes or something where a lady says, you know, I used to be young and cool and hip. And now I'm saying, is that a, is that a Audubon's warbler out the window? You know, so, so this bird watching thing comes up and grabs you. And there's a certain stage in life where it's like, you know, it's kind of along the sourdough lines. All of a sudden you're making sourdough bread and

and watching birds in his head, I have become my grandmother. What's happening?

McKenzie Smith (25:50.7)
I love that it comes about the same time you start making sourdough. man, that means my husband's gonna start being a birder here soon. Because he's, he hasn't started the sourdough train yet, but he's very much interested in collecting all the things to do it, so.

Chris Cameron (25:56.887)
is very, very close.

Chris Cameron (26:06.105)
Well, has he started on the kombucha train yet?

McKenzie Smith (26:08.27)
No, I don't think he'll ever do that because he doesn't like kombucha.

Chris Cameron (26:12.183)
Okay, well, because that's where that's where that train head

McKenzie Smith (26:16.996)
I know. I have a friend. She's she's she's on on that train. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that surprised me, my friend was saying about the the Merlin Bird app was there's a bird, some sort of like mockingbird where it makes the sounds of other birds, you know, it copy copies them and app can still tell you, even though it sounds exactly like another bird, that it is.

Chris Cameron (26:22.743)
turning the key for a train.

Chris Cameron (26:37.323)
Right. Right.

McKenzie Smith (26:45.622)
whatever the bird is and I was like that's nuts.

Chris Cameron (26:49.687)
Yeah, I helped run the Morro Bay Bird Festival for many years. It's on Martin Luther King weekend every year in Morro Bay. Thousands of people come to it. And I went out, since I'm one of the leaders, I went out to check on one of the trips and it was a birding by ear trip. And the guy said, okay, what is that that you hear? And I watched the people try to identify it. But as a falconer, I knew what it was.

It sounded just like a red shell, red shoulder hawk, but it wasn't. was a scrub J imitating or it was a Stellar's J imitating a red shoulder hawk. And you can hear just a tiny little bit off, but everybody identified it as a red shoulder hawk. I said, no, it's not. And then it flew out and they can see the J flying out of the tree because he was, he was a great mimic.

McKenzie Smith (27:29.378)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (27:41.697)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (27:45.314)
That's, that's crazy. The more, you know, man. Well, Chris, switching gears a little bit into the title of this podcast, My Valley, His Victory, would love for you to share with us a valley or a season of wilderness that you experienced and just what God maybe taught you or prepared you for in that season.

Chris Cameron (28:08.939)
Yeah, I think the hardest thing was after I got fired from the church, after I was not working the church job, that was a real question of identity because I thought that's what my identity, that's thought, that's who I thought I was. And when that was taken away, it's like, my gosh, who am I now? What is my life all about? Where I'm going? What am I doing? And I had a wife and three kids, you know, so how am I going to?

keep the family alive. So there were the financial panic and then there's the identity question and those things were really really hard and when the identity question was connected with the church then there's that possibility of getting things crossed up, you know. And so that was a really really hard time and

And I had to drive past that church whenever I left the town. So every time I passed it, there was this grief. you know, takes grief when you lose something, whether it's a loved one or a job or an identity or a pet, you know, it takes some time. It's not just an automatically, well, time to move on to the next thing. There's a process and a period of grief that happens. And so I took a job as a naturalist teaching kids about nature.

McKenzie Smith (29:10.616)
Hmm.

Chris Cameron (29:32.011)
And that was really healing. And then it was dangerous when we went to other churches because all the other churches knew my work at one church and they looked at me like, can you work here? Can you work here? So I felt like, like I was on the meat market, you know, and, so try to hold, trying to hold my connection with God in, that time was, was a bit of a challenge. And so it was.

McKenzie Smith (29:50.275)
Mm.

Chris Cameron (30:02.369)
connection with God not so much with the connection of the people of the church or the friends from church But it was just an individual connection with God that comes from from scripture and prayer and from being outdoors Those were the things that helped me get through That was probably the toughest valley

McKenzie Smith (30:21.752)
Yeah.

Yeah. So, love for you to share just maybe a little bit more. You know, you said you walked into some of these churches and they wanted you to work there, but you took a job as a naturalist. What made you pivot to that versus going to work at another church?

Chris Cameron (30:49.047)
Yeah, I have other offers of other church things, but you know, you get sour. It's kind of like,

Chris Cameron (30:58.359)
I just wanted a little break from that because it was just emotionally really difficult. And the difficulty came with my identity of who I am and who I've been. For most of my life, I've been a pastor and now I'm not a pastor. Do I want to jump back in and be a pastor again or?

Do I want to still work? You know, the thing about the churches is they're made up of all these humans and all these humans are just normal humans and it doesn't matter how cool the church is, it's just still people. And so there's messiness in it. And I think I just needed a little break and the break in nature, teaching kids about nature. Oh my gosh, just the best thing. I just really loved it. So anyway, there you go.

McKenzie Smith (31:38.606)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (31:52.876)
Yeah, was... No, that's okay. Yeah, I think you said you needed a break and you needed some time and you got a little sour and I think that that's... that totally makes sense. What age of kids were you teaching when you transitioned?

Chris Cameron (31:53.727)
I didn't quite answer your question.

Chris Cameron (32:10.303)
It was, have you done that fifth or sixth grade science camp? So I was one of those naturalists who taught the science camp. So the school would bring their fifth or sixth graders and we teach them, teach them nature stuff. And I did that for four or five years and maybe more. And then as I continued to grow in that area, then I worked for the California Department of Education.

McKenzie Smith (32:24.256)
Okay. Okay.

Chris Cameron (32:38.839)
providing those sorts of environmental education resources for thousands and thousands of teachers in the region. So I helped develop a statewide network of environmental education research resources to help teachers.

McKenzie Smith (32:55.702)
Okay, okay. And was the naturalist thing or that certification or degree, I'm not quite sure what it was. Is that something that you had previously or you had to go back to school after being a pastor to get that? Or were you able to just walk into that job?

Chris Cameron (33:12.863)
No. Yeah, I walked into, I had enough science that I was qualified, enough science and enough life experience to walk into that job. And now I teach the California Naturalist course. It's a University of California course. So I teach that course, probably taught over 20 of those. In fact, one of your, one of your previous guests, Jonathan.

was in a California naturalist course. So I teach a UC course on how to become a naturalist. So I have enough background to do that.

McKenzie Smith (33:47.232)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Cool. I just wasn't sure if it was like, cause I know you had said whenever you were in college, you made that transition to go to go to seminary, know, consider that path. But I didn't know how far you got down that road and you know what, where that, where that all ended up. And so I was just curious, but yes, Jonathan was the one who recommended you to be here. And so yes, you guys connected at that. And that is so fun that you guys are both out in California doing.

teaching people about the outdoors. love that. Super special. I want to ask you kind of an interesting question about a point that you that you made whenever you were sharing this story was that anytime you would leave town, you would have to drive past this church. And so I would love to just ask you kind of what or how you think having that, you know, point or thing.

still be a visual in your life either helped you heal or maybe the opposite maybe it took you longer to heal from that because I think so often whenever we are hurt by some something someone situation a place we very much just like cut it out we we do our best to avoid it and I would

like to assume that, you know, there's there's actually probably some healing that happens in having to, you know, drive by and remember and kind of work through some of those emotions. I don't know if that's the case, but would love to just kind of ask you what your thoughts were about about having that be be a place that you had to frequently go past.

Chris Cameron (35:28.535)
Yeah, daily, daily for years. I think it prolonged the grief and made it more difficult to heal. I think if you had a really terrible breakup with a girlfriend or a boyfriend, and then that person was in your life every day at work, like they were your boss, or you had to work with them for years after.

It doesn't help you get over it quickly. And so I think having to drive past that church a couple of times a day made the grief last longer. But I didn't really have anybody helping me through that grief either. So I probably could have benefited from some counseling there. But yeah, it was a very difficult time. That was really hard.

McKenzie Smith (36:23.202)
Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine. It's just like that constant reminder. But I think, you sometimes there's also, you know, you could swing the opposite direction and just never think about it and never deal with it. And then it could boil up and, you know, be a be a totally different situation if you don't ever have to address that place or those feelings. And so it may have taken longer, but at least, you know, maybe you worked through it versus just like.

ignoring it, you know? I don't know. It's just the thought that came into my mind because, I think so often we just, we don't want to see it, we don't want to deal with it, we don't want to be a part of it. And so as you mentioned that, it just made me think like, what did that, how did that impact this process?

Chris Cameron (36:53.719)
Yeah, perhaps.

Chris Cameron (37:10.283)
Yeah, I think if I had the option of not ever going there again, I would have taken that option. But that's the way out of town. And that's how I had to drive.

McKenzie Smith (37:12.59)
you

McKenzie Smith (37:19.438)
Hey, hey, it happens. Oh, so I would love to just, you know, ask you, I always like to leave our listeners with a piece of encouragement or a word of hope. You know, if someone is going through a similar season, they've lost, you know, their financial means, they've lost their identity. They've lost their church, which, you know, could also be their family. You know, kind of just give us some encouragement, give us some hope, give us some. Yeah.

for someone in the middle of that season who doesn't have the perspective you have now.

Chris Cameron (37:53.109)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that that verse I said, I lift my eyes up to the mountains. Where does my help come from? My help comes from God, you God maker of heaven and creator of the earth. I think time outside is good. I think leaning into the fact that we have a God who loves us unconditionally and we don't have to

get fixed before we can experience the love of God. I think that's really, really important. And then if we can accept that experience, then we have opportunity to give that to other people. So I think those things, know, and what is it? 1 Corinthians 13 talks about love. Love never fails. Love always trusts. Love always protects. And that's the God that we have. And then...

One other concept I'd like to share is, if I was a creator and made a pot, a beautiful ceramic pot, and I gave it to you Kinsey as a gift, and I said, here's this thing, it took me a long, time and I made this beautiful thing for you, then your most respectful response to me would be to take care of that, to put it in a place of honor and to treat it nicely and treat it well.

If you just used it as a doorstop or something, that wouldn't be the most respectful way to treat the gift I you. And so God has given us this earth and here we are on this place that's got incredible sadness and destruction, but it's also got incredible beauty. And the closer you look, the deeper you look, the more you can see the beauty that God created for us to enjoy. And so our normal response should be,

and open arm embrace and love and welcome of the beauty that surrounds us. And it's even in the people, if you can look close and look past some rough edges, there's beauty all around us. So an embrace of those things I think is important.

McKenzie Smith (40:02.732)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, thank you so much for sharing that. think that's really helpful and we do need to not take it for granted because it is such a beautiful gift that he made for us. And so we need to embrace it and we need to experience it and not just shut ourselves in our houses with our technology. We got to get outside to see his creation and to see other people too. So totally makes sense. Well.

Chris, I thank you so much just for coming on here and for sharing a little bit about you and about your story and all the things I would love for you to share with our listeners just where they can connect with you, where they can find more about what you're doing and whatever it is that you do on the internet.

Chris Cameron (40:48.727)
I have a website, it's just called natureupclose.com and I don't really do much on the internet so it's not a great website. But I have my next classes that I'm teaching. I think the only one that's open right now is a California Naturals course in Cambria in August. I think everything else is full. But you can find out a little bit about me there.

McKenzie Smith (41:15.062)
Yeah, and is most of your or all of your education that you do in person? Yeah, okay, so there's no way for people that aren't in California to learn from you.

Chris Cameron (41:21.541)
yeah.

Chris Cameron (41:29.335)
You can hop on an airplane and fly out and join one of the classes here in person. You know, we have this ability, we can do that. So no, don't. I think...

McKenzie Smith (41:35.607)
Yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. I just want to clarify they're all in person in California.

Chris Cameron (41:44.629)
Yeah, I think there might be a couple of online things like bird migrations or something from the Rhodes Scholar site. I'm sure if you really cared, you could find me online someplace, but I don't on purpose have stuff out there.

McKenzie Smith (41:59.21)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, totally makes sense. I just want to clarify. It's all in person in California, specifically around California environment.

Chris Cameron (42:10.133)
Yeah, California nature stuff is what I'm involved in.

McKenzie Smith (42:14.006)
Okay, perfect, perfect. Well, again, thank you so much, Chris, for being here and for sharing your story with us.

Chris Cameron (42:20.181)
My pleasure.