071 - What to Do When God Doesn’t Give You the Birth Story You Hoped For with Denise Graves

In this episode, Denise Graves shares her journey of faith, family, and outdoor adventures. Growing up in Southern California with immigrant parents, Denise reflects on how her upbringing shaped her love for nature and the outdoors. She discusses the importance of maintaining outdoor traditions with her own children, the challenges of parenting, and how her faith plays a crucial role in her life. Denise also shares her personal experiences, including the premature birth of her son and the lessons learned through that challenging time. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes the significance of connecting with nature and God, offering practical tips for parents to incorporate outdoor activities into their family life. In this conversation, Denise Graves shares her profound journey through motherhood, highlighting the challenges and miracles she experienced during her pregnancies. From the trauma of an emergency C-section to the guilt of not being able to carry her son to term, Denise reflects on the emotional and spiritual battles she faced. She emphasizes the importance of faith, community support, and the power of prayer in overcoming these challenges. Denise also discusses the realities of birth plans versus actual experiences, encouraging openness to unexpected outcomes. Ultimately, she finds hope and joy in her imperfect journey, celebrating the miracle of life and the lessons learned along the way.

instagram and tiktok: @denisebgraves

Transcript

McKenzie Smith (00:01)
On today's episode of My Valley, His Victory, we have Denise Graves. She is a SoCal wife and mom who grew up in the church. Through every season of life, God has sustained her. She is grateful to her parents who took her camping and hiking from a young age, and she is continuing that tradition with her own kids. The mountains and ocean are familiar friends who help her feel God's presence. Her life verse over self and her family is Romans 12-12.

Her life verse over herself and her family is Romans 12, 12. Rejoice and hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Thanks so much for being with us today, Denise.

Denise Graves (00:40)
Thanks so much for having me, super excited.

McKenzie Smith (00:43)
Yeah, absolutely. I love your life verse because that is actually the verse that I wrote on my backpack, like in permanent marker before I went out and did the drawn mirror trail because I was like every day when I unpack my camp and pack up my camp as I like rolled down my backpack, you know, I was like, I want to see scripture. And that was just something that I felt like was going to be like ⁓ a really good verse for that trip and just that experience. And man, it was it was a good one. So I love that that's your life verse.

Denise Graves (01:12)
That's amazing. Yeah, we have it. I wrote it out on like a chalkboard, you know, classic millennial mom having a chalkboard like on her wall in the kitchen. yeah, that's we that became our family lifers after our son was born because we needed it. We needed to hold on to that truth.

McKenzie Smith (01:32)
Yeah, yeah, it's just so true. Like, rejoice in hope. We got to be hopeful and that's got to be like our motivating factor, you know, and then be patient in tribulation because it won't last. There will be an end to it. And it's always a good reminder for me to be constant in prayer because I know I always need that reminder. So it's a good one. So Denise, why don't you go ahead and just share with the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

Denise Graves (01:50)
you

Yeah, so my name is Denise, hi everyone. And I was born and raised in Southern California to immigrant parents. Both of my parents are from El Salvador and they moved over here in 1980 during the Civil War. And so I was raised speaking Spanish at home and English at school. And I started going to a Spanish Pentecostal church when I was about six years old. So I grew up in a very charismatic church household.

And then when I was about 21, I started going to an English church in LA in Hollywood, which most people don't associate Jesus in Hollywood, but there was a lot of powerful believers there. And that's where I met my husband. We've been married for about 10 years now. Going on 11, which is crazy, you blink and then there goes the time. And we have two kiddos.

which named Cedar and River, a little boy and a little girl. And if you haven't guessed that I love the outdoors, mean, my kids' names kind of solidify that. Yeah, and we live in a beach town here in SoCal, which is about maybe an hour north of LA or half an hour south of Santa Barbara, I always like to say. ⁓

McKenzie Smith (03:11)
Yeah,

yeah, very cool. And thanks for kind of giving us the geography there because I'm like, I never know where some of these places are. that's always helpful. So talk to us a little bit about, know, just growing up, you said that your family's your family took you on like camping trips and hiking trips, kind of talk to us about that. Say, you know, I would say.

Denise Graves (03:16)
You ⁓

McKenzie Smith (03:36)
for being near Hollywood, one, that's, know, or LA, if that's where you grew up, that's a little, you know, unique. And then also, you know, having a family that, you know, wasn't originally from here and just all of that, so.

Denise Graves (03:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, my dad, like there's pictures of my parents in Yosemite with like my mom being pregnant with me. I have an older sister. She's five years older than me. And they took her camping. And then when I came along, it was just kind of they're continuing that tradition. And ever since I can remember, we always did like an outdoor vacation and then a, you know, a hotel. I always joke a hotel vacation.

growing up. So my dad really loved taking us to the national parks. The Pueblo that my mom grew up in in El Salvador, like has a river that runs through it. It's all green. My dad grew up in what's called a canton, which is basically like the mountains. It's like even more rural than a Pueblo. So they both really like being outdoors and being with nature. So I feel like that kind of trickled in to when they came to the US and it's a very, to them, it's a very American thing to go to a national park.

McKenzie Smith (04:47)
Ha ha

Denise Graves (04:47)
So

I feel like they just wanted, even though they're from El Salvador, wanted to instill some US tradition with their daughters. And so yeah, I grew up going to Kings Canyon, Sequoia, ⁓ Zion, Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, you name it. My parents could drive there. They would take my sister and I there. my parents worked a lot being immigrants. so.

We always cherish these times away. then growing up in a church in LA, we'd always go to camp. Like I grew up in this thing called missionettes. It's, don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's very much an assemblies of God thing. There's it's Royal Rangers for the boys and missionettes for the girls. And it's basically like the Girl Scouts, but you're centered around the Bible. So they would, we'd go to mission at camp, you know, up in the mountains and learn about Jesus. And it was funny cause there was always like cheerleading competitions.

like your church would come up with like a cheer for Jesus and then you'd compete against other churches. I had a very, I thought normal to me childhood, but then I talked to other people who grew up in different denominations of the church. Like, yeah, we didn't do that.

McKenzie Smith (06:03)
Yeah, that's fun. I've never heard of missionettes. I'm not familiar with that at all, but I think that's really cool, like teaching you about the outdoors in Jesus and, you know, giving you that little experience. Not so sure about the cheerleading and the cheerleading for God, but that's a totally new and foreign thing to me. But hey, whatever works, man. Whatever gets people excited about Jesus. So I love, though, your appearance kind of.

Denise Graves (06:16)
Yeah.

You

McKenzie Smith (06:29)
take on vacations, we're gonna do an outside vacation and we're gonna do a hotel vacation. I think that's really cool. get the best of both worlds and you get both experiences and then you become an adult and you figure out which one works best for you. And I would assume you maybe do the same thing with your kids, I'm not sure, but that's just a really cool way to approach that and you get to experience both things.

kudos to your parents for coming up with that because I really liked that idea. I've like never heard anybody call, you know, we just did pretty much all hotel vacations. So we were not camping as children. ⁓ So I love that. So kind of talk to us about what now you know today outdoor recreation looks for you looks like for you. I know that you you know have two kids and a husband now is he into the outdoors or your kids into the outdoors?

Denise Graves (06:57)
you

Yeah.

Yeah

Yeah, thankfully,

God knew who he was going to partner me up with. ⁓ Because my husband also grew up in the outdoors. He grew up backpacking in the Sierra with his dad and his brothers. He's the youngest of five. And he has two older brothers, two older sisters. And he grew up snowboarding and surfing and ⁓ backpacking. And then he did rock climbing when he got older. And so that was kind of our sport. ⁓

together was rock climbing when we when the Lord brought us together and we did ⁓ backpacking and hiking. We actually did the John Muir Trail. It's so funny how the Lord just like brought you and me together too with that verse that you said and then I did the John Muir Trail for my 30th birthday. It was my dirty 30 because but I took it like a whole other spin on it where it was just like we did it in two weeks. So we were powering through and it was just grimy and

McKenzie Smith (08:19)
Wow.

Denise Graves (08:22)
painful, but awesome and rewarding. Yeah, I remember you mentioning that. it was like, it's, yeah, God just bringing us together in this season is really cool to share our experiences. But yeah, since having kids, so that was kind of like our last hurrah and then we were planning to have kids. ⁓ So since having kids, we still hike locally.

McKenzie Smith (08:26)
Yeah, that's so cool, because I did it for my 30th too. That's funny.

Denise Graves (08:49)
I became a runner after having my second child. So I've done like an ultra marathon in Mammoth and on Catalina Island. actually training for a 50-miler, which will be on Catalina Island. But I'm recovering from a shoulder injury. So this year on 2025, I'm not doing any full marathons. I think the most I'm doing is like 18 miles, which is still a lot to run, but kind of gearing up to.

the 50 mile or that will be in June. But that's just, it's kind of just easy to get out the door. I have a trail that's half a mile from my house that I can just go and run and run on. It's not high altitude, but we're about maybe two hours from any high altitudes. Mount Baldy is not too far and that goes up to 10,000 feet. My husband just got into trail running, so I'm super excited for him too. And we're going to go and hit some peaks to train for our races. And with our kids,

It's just kind of, since it was a rhythm of life for me growing up, we made it a rhythm of life for the kids to grow up. Like my daughter's already camped in Yosemite. She's going to be five. think she's camped in Yosemite five times already. we took my son camping when he was, well, he was four months old, but two months adjusted. He was a preemie. And then my daughter, took her to Kings Canyon National Park to camp when she was two months old.

and we've taken them to Channel Islands on like a backpacking overnight trip. My son was, I think, two when we took him on his first backpacking trip when we lived in Colorado. So it was one of those things where my husband and I wanted to continue that. Is it easy? No. Do we question our life choices when bringing them on some of these trips? Yes. Have we also cut trips a day short? Yes, because the elements and children.

McKenzie Smith (10:30)
Ha

Denise Graves (10:43)
are unpredictable. And so, so you just never know what perfect storm is going to happen when you're on a camping trip. So we just, my husband and I, we make our plan. And even in Christianity, know, when you're like, make your plan, but the Lord guides your steps. We kind of go with that. It's like, we can choose to be irritated or we can choose to just be like, you know what, this is what it is. We got them outside.

McKenzie Smith (10:45)
Hahaha

Denise Graves (11:11)
we can pack them up and go back home. It's fine. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (11:14)
Yeah. my goodness. I love,

I love that. That, you know, you said it was just a rhythm of life for you. And so it's just stayed a rhythm of life. I know that, you know, I've talked about this a little bit on here before, but you know, there's parents, I feel like that do one of two things. It's either they completely change their life and, know, they kind of adjust to their kids and what that life looks like, or they keep the same, you know, momentum and the same rhythms that they had before and just kind of bring their kids along. And I think that's so cool. Whenever

you get to have those experiences with your kids and you know get to do some of your favorite things with these little humans that you created and ⁓ you know I just think that there's there's a lot that we learn from our parents through like watching them experience or lead or you know do whatever and so to see them inside something that they actually truly love and are passionate about I think is has got to be a really cool experience for the kids I know that grew up like that.

Denise Graves (11:49)
You

McKenzie Smith (12:07)
I know my parents, they kind of, feel like they stopped all their hobbies, you know, like I feel like my parents were really rad when they were, before they had kids, not to say that they're not rad now, but you know, it was just like they, they did things and then it was funny cause like they met water skiing. This is not, they met water skiing and my mom was a professional water skier. We never water skied once in our whole life. I'm like,

Denise Graves (12:10)
No.

Yeah.

that's cool. ⁓

That's... my gosh, that's so funny. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (12:32)
How does that not, you know what I mean? So

Denise Graves (12:35)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (12:35)
they just kind of, think, you know, just changed, changed what they did, you know, because of us and maybe they outgrew it. I don't know. I've probably never really talked to him about it, but it's just, I always think it's cool whenever you get to experience those things. And I see kids with their parents just like trucking along. We saw these two boys on the John Muir trail with their dad and they were like, probably.

I think like seven and 11. And I'm just like, they're gonna remember that for the rest of their life. Like that is gonna be just such an epic thing ⁓ for them and know, growing up. But going back to you, this is not about me. ⁓ You said that you're like doing all this trail running now. I'm like, my goodness, you are the.

Denise Graves (13:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, no, I love it.

McKenzie Smith (13:20)
true outdoor enthusiast. I feel like there is a linear progression that happens in the outdoor space and you have officially come to the last thing, which is the ultimate type two fun, which is running crazy amounts of miles. That sounds zero fun to me. I have talked about this before. Not a fan of running and I love backpacking and people are like, yeah, you're going to learn. You're going to, you're going to trail run next time. Like not a chance.

Denise Graves (13:21)
Yeah

Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Yeah, it's...

Yeah, that's how I was. I

always thought running was a waste of time. And then I had my second kid and I'm like, I need to focus on something other than like everything that my kids need. So running is kind of like a selfish, it does beat me up. I have asthma and so I like sound like a dying animal going uphill. I always like to say, people always ask if I'm okay. I'm like, I promise once I get up this hill, like my lungs will settle and my legs will take over.

McKenzie Smith (13:58)
Yeah, yeah.

haha

Denise Graves (14:16)
⁓ But yeah, running has just become a nice place where I can just, I do a lot of praying while I run. ⁓ I can't listen to worship music while I run because I'll instantly just start sobbing because I get like overwhelmed with God's goodness. So I've learned I can't run and worship at the same time. So I run and pray and just have like that conversation with God or, you know, kind of unwind that way, take the mental load off that way.

McKenzie Smith (14:39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So kind of on that note, I would love for you to share with the listeners just kind of how the outdoors plays a role specifically in your relationship with Christ.

Denise Graves (14:54)
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I grew up going outside. so for me, especially it was weird because I never knew how connected I was to the ocean until I moved away from it for a year. And there's just something about being either in front of a tall mountain or just listening to the roaring of the ocean that puts you in your place. ⁓ God constantly, I mean, he humbles me with my children constantly, but like also just letting me know.

how good he is with just nature, just seeing how he takes care of the earth and how more. So is he gonna take care of me? And so all of these things are just sweet little reminders of his goodness. ⁓ Where I live, it's very like I'm staring at a hillside right now. And then there's always like turkey vultures and hawks and it's very like there's bobcats in the hills by me and mountain lions. So I live where there's nature and it's not just like.

you know, it's not just like mountains, it's actual like the flora and the fauna part of it. And yeah, with that, it's just, it's, I know it's very grounding or like the crunchy, I'm like, I'm like a crunchy mom, but like that loves Jesus. So it's finding that balance where you're not into all of the earthly spiritualistic things because I'm grounded in Jesus. So I've been a

McKenzie Smith (16:15)
you

Denise Graves (16:20)
learning to find that balance of when I talk to my friends who are very crunchy. And it's just like, yeah, but Jesus is the center of it all. And he's the one that sustains me and he's the one that grounds me. And he's the one that keeps me rooted in truth and reality. And just seeing how he created everything and how like everything has its perfect place. Like the Sierra is like an example of it is so

beautiful and majestic out there seeing these big rock faces and it's like God made that and God made me and he made my children and I'm just a small, I'm just ⁓ a traveler, a passenger in this life until I get to meet Jesus again.

McKenzie Smith (17:06)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah, absolutely. I love that you kind of have to make that differentiation of.

Denise Graves (17:14)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (17:14)
Yes,

it's the ground and it's the earth and God made it that way, but it's not the spiritual things that, you know, I like most people put in line with that. so, yeah, that's always a tricky line to walk because I'm the same way. I'm like kind of crunchy, but I'm, you know, also love Jesus. And so it's like you find people that are into one of the same things, you know, and it's like you got to be careful how you share about it in some way. So I appreciate that.

Denise Graves (17:20)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (17:40)
So can you share a story about a way in which maybe God has revealed himself to you or spoken to you through the outdoors?

Denise Graves (17:49)
through the outdoors specifically. Well, I'm gonna go into my son's birth and then kind of unpack that a little bit. when I got pregnant with my son, I was 30 years old. It's so funny because we had gone to do a Mount Langley hike. Do you know Mount Langley? It's in the Sierra. It's a 14 or in the Sierra. And again, I was 30 fit.

thought I was fine and I was just, could not get through this hike. I got like four miles in and told my husband, like, I'm gonna bail. And turns out I was pregnant with our first child. So I was like, that makes sense why everything feels off. But with my pregnancy, again, thinking I was super healthy, super fit, did not know why I had a complicated pregnancy. It was just one of those things where God's like, hey, this is gonna be... ⁓

what's happening and I always wanted to be a mom and you know, whenever God gives you what you want, it doesn't always look like what is needed or whatever. And so my son came nine weeks early. He was one pound, 14 ounces when he was born, 13 and three quarter inches long. Like my husband's wedding ring fit on his arm. And we had already prior to him being born or any of this happening knew we were going to name him Cedar.

⁓ mainly because there's this like famous rock climber named Cedar. And so we're just like, we're climbers. ⁓ That would be a cool thing to name our son after. But also it's biblical, like the Cedars of Lebanon. We like made all these, like again, when you want to make the connection, the connection's there. Like his middle name's Andrew, like Andrew's in the Bible. Like our last name's Graves. Like Jesus conquered the grave. We're really like cheesy in that aspect. But. ⁓

McKenzie Smith (19:37)
Yeah

Denise Graves (19:42)
Yeah, having my son be born so early and then me actually ⁓ hemorrhaging and almost, you know, losing my own life. ⁓ Being in that season ⁓ where I'm not outside necessarily as I'm healing. ⁓ But he had a two month hospital stay, so I could not stay in the hospital with him. The NICU that he was in, it didn't accommodate for parents to be able to stay overnight. Some NICUs do.

let you sleep there for the duration of the child's stay, but ours didn't. And so every day I would drive, because we were two cities over from his hospital, so I would drive from our house to ⁓ the hospital and I would listen to Torrenwell's Hills and Valleys, a song that I recommended, and it's just talking about how God is with you.

through the hills and the valleys, how I'm never alone and I'm like seeing the Santa Monica mountains in front of me. And even though I can't get into the mountains, it's still nature was still around me. God is still with me ⁓ in all of this. And when I was healed enough, the doctors kept telling Matt and I, my husband's name's They're like, he's Cedar is fine here. Like we've got him like go.

enjoy yourselves before the baby comes home, which you would never think a doctor would tell you that. You'd think like, no, come sit here. The baby needs you. And I guess we were there every day. So they were probably like, you know, just go and be. And so there's rock climbing in our area as well. So I remember rock climbing postpartum and pumping, you know, next to the crag because

That's what I needed to do. I needed to feed my kid. But it's just like, I'm out here and how I wish my baby could be out here with me, but God is still making my body work where I can feed my baby. And ⁓ eventually my son did come out with us to be in the outdoors. But it was one of those things where I was, God had me in this place and I'm like wrestling with him. Why, why is this happening? Why did this happen?

I've loved you my whole life. Like, you know, it was one of those where I let my temper out on Jesus. I let my temper out on God and he was just like, I have you. Like, just like you said, I've sustained you your whole life. I am with you. Your thoughts are valid. Like God always validated how I was feeling through my friends and family and having that like wonderful support system of friends and family. ⁓

that are believers, he validated everything and also was just like, let's just go on a walk together. You know, let's just get outside and go on a walk. And so that was one where it didn't have to be like me climbing this huge mountain. It was just me appreciating the hills, the literal hills in the, you know, the hill that I was climbing as my son was fighting for his life in the hospital.

McKenzie Smith (22:57)
Yeah, absolutely. It wasn't you being out in nature. It was maybe a song about nature. But since you had all this experience in the mountains, you connected with that song, you know, on a deeper level because you fully understand what hills and valleys look like and what it takes to get up them and what it's like to be, you know, in the valley, either coming down after a long climb or, you know, knowing that you have to go up a big climb. so.

Denise Graves (23:03)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (23:22)
Yeah, I think that's really cool that he used that time and just a song, you know, even in that in that experience. And then even just the doctor, you know, like in that season saying like, hey, like, you know, you guys need to go and do something for yourself. Like you've been here every day for who knows how long, you know, months. And it's like you guys need to need to do something for yourself. And just like what an what an encouragement ⁓ for that for for that season, because I know like

we need our cups filled sometimes in order to continue pouring out. And that's probably exactly what you needed in that moment. So what a blessing that doctor was to even encourage that. Because like you said, I feel like most doctors are just like, oh yeah, you're here. As most parents probably would be. Oh, that's good. Well, thank you so much for sharing. I know we're going to dig into that a little bit more here in a minute.

Denise Graves (24:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (24:20)
I usually ask at this point about a practical way that listeners can connect with God on everyday basis. But since you're a mom who gets outside with her kiddos, I always like to ask, you know, just for a parent who maybe is, you know, struggling to keep their hobbies as a parent or struggling to get outside and, you know, do some of these things that they love and they want to experience with their kids.

Denise Graves (24:26)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (24:43)
but they don't really know how to or where to start. like piece of encouragement or word of advice would you give to that parent?

Denise Graves (24:51)
Yeah, so I was a stay at home mom for a small season of the kid's life. ⁓ So I can give you kind of a stay at home mom perspective and then a working mom perspective because I do have a full time job now. When I was a stay at home mom, I always joked I did trail Tuesdays with my son. And so every Tuesday without fail, I tried to get on a trail with him. And again, I've been very blessed that I always lived around trails ⁓ as an adult.

As a mom, I've always loved round trails. And so I just really made it a priority to carve out that time to take him outside just so he can get vitamin D. Again, we always joke, he did his time in the hospital. We try to get him outside and he loves sunbathing. Like ever since he was a baby, he'd always crawl to the sun and find the sun. ⁓ So just like.

get making sure you prioritize getting outside, joining a mom's group. There's a lot of them out there and they can be super intimidating because some mom groups have like five moms and then some mom groups have like 30 moms and it's like a stroller gang and I've been a part of both of them and ⁓ some mom groups aren't religious, some mom groups are and kind of just seeing what works best for you and your baby and knowing that

⁓ God has people in different seasons. So if you're coming and you're like looking to be stoked on life, just know that you might have a mom that's struggling in that season and that's okay too. So just be, if you do join a mom group, just know that maybe not everyone is gonna be your cup of tea and that's fine. Everyone's learning, especially if you're a first time mom, everyone has an opinion.

And you got to be okay. And you have to know that you don't have to take their opinion as Bible like you can be like, thank you for letting me know how you do things that might not work for me. But thank you for sharing your experience. ⁓ But yeah, just getting even getting in the backyard. If you have a backyard like putting a little place up for them in the backyard. If you have a park.

try going to the park. Like we also live next to the beach. I'm two miles from the beach. So we take the kids to the ocean or walk on the pier. I said, we have trails by our house. So we walk on trails. And for birthdays, this is just kind of like a little mom tip for birthdays or even for baby showers. If you don't have kids yet, don't be afraid to put gear on registries or on birthday lists. Like my kids,

My son just had a birthday. We always do Amazon wishlist or Christmas wishlist on Amazon. And there are always going to be a new pair of hiking shoes that someone else can buy him because they outgrow shoes so fast or like sun shirts or hats. Just don't be afraid to put that stuff on there or like little like backpack hiking backpacks ⁓ because people, if they see you passionate about it and they see that you want to like give that onto your kid. Most of the times people are happy to buy that gear for your kid. ⁓

and have them share in that outdoor experience. So don't get overwhelmed by all the stuff that's out there, because there's so much stuff out there. And any parent knows kids grow out of things so fast. So Facebook Marketplace is also your friend. If you want to get like a jogging stroller, because that's another thing, mommies need to move. I'm a firm believer that mommies need to move because postpartum hormones are crazy. So go on, you know.

McKenzie Smith (28:33)
you

Denise Graves (28:38)
Facebook marketplace, see if there's a jogging stroller and just get outside on a walk with your kid. ⁓ Could just be the tips. Cause again, it doesn't have to be this big nature adventure every single time, especially in the daily rhythm as you're figuring out each other. Cause remember this baby's new to you and you're new to this baby. So you guys are both figuring each other out. And yeah, tantrums are going to happen. It's okay. Just have snacks.

McKenzie Smith (28:58)
Yeah.

Just have snacks. I love it. Yeah,

thank you so much for sharing. just know that's definitely a hurdle for a lot of people is they're just like, that seems like, you know, a lot more work than what it's worth. it's, you know, it doesn't have to be. And it can be a big adventure, it can be a small adventure, but the sunshine is good and just have snacks. I love it. I love it. I love it.

Denise Graves (29:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (29:28)
Well, Denise, I know that you have shared a little bit of this already, but I would love for you to just continue to share with us and kind of dive into that valley and that valley or season of wilderness you experienced with having your son ⁓ premature and, you know, almost losing your life in the process and all of that and just what, you know, God taught you throughout that season and just, you know, what you experienced.

Denise Graves (29:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, with both of my pregnancies, they were very different with my son. Like I said, he was born early. I, yeah, I hemorrhaged and they actually didn't know what was wrong with me. I had him at night and it wasn't until the next morning with my regular OB, because we have Kaiser and I don't know if you guys know with Kaiser, you kind of get whatever doctors on call. It's not your OB that comes in to like deliver your baby. It's like whoever's there.

And so my OB came in the next day and she is a Caucasian lady and she's like, Denise, you are paler than I am. There is something wrong. So she's like, we need, we don't know if you just need a blood transfusion or if you need to go back into the OR. And at this point, I still hadn't seen my son. Like they took them out of me. had an emergency C-section. They took them out of me and I hadn't seen them since the OR.

And I just asked like, okay, well, if I have to go back into the OR, can I at least get to see my child? You know, and they wheeled me over and I just remember seeing him for the first time and no one had ever seen a baby that small. I had never seen a baby that small and like all of my family members. ⁓ And it was just one of those things where like my son is truly, I always talk about tangible.

a tangible miracle and my son is a tangible miracle. Like I literally saw what God could do and how he can sustain life. And I always felt that too because yes, I was going through trauma. Like I just had a traumatic experience. I wound up needing a blood transfusion ⁓ which helped and I like found myself like coming back to life because I like felt myself dimming. I was making my peace with God already and saying like

you know, take care of my husband and my child because I felt myself fading. ⁓ Thankfully, God has me here for a longer time and a longer purpose. But it's just, I always felt bad for my husband because he saw his wife like have to go through this. And then he's also balancing like his son. So he's going between Cedar and I in the hospital and like, where do I like focus my attention on? ⁓ yeah, it was

It was really, really hard in that season to just, like, we were grateful that our baby was okay. He stopped growing in utero. So the full thing was my just placenta just stopped working. Like it stopped redistributing the nutrients. And so they had to take him out. And it was one of those things where I was so grateful that we have modern medicine and the hospital and the doctors were able to intervene, but also having grown up.

is very traditional values. like, my one job is to have a child, like to be able to like incubate a child and I failed. Like I couldn't even keep him in there. He was in there for, I had him at 31 weeks. ⁓ And the guilt that I felt from that, the shame that I felt from that, no one was putting that on me. No one was like, you failed. But myself, like having to wrestle with that.

while it's also like wrestling with just everything else that was happening. I was like, God, why? Why is this happening? Why did this happen? They always say, oh, God gives you, and he doesn't give you more than you can take. And I was like, well, I don't want to take this. You know what I mean? Can you give me another child? Because this one's really, really hard. And again, having.

A husband who's a believer was a huge thing because he would pray for us, having friends and family who are believers. ⁓ My mom's church, the church that I grew up in, my son is known as the Miracle Baby. ⁓ And so there's people that were praying for him constantly just to make sure that he's okay. just knowing that strangers are praying for your child, know, people that you've never met before because it just spread.

a word of mouth like, hey, Denise had her baby early. And it was just having messages of people that I have no idea who they are, like praying for you, praying for your baby. And I did like a post today on Instagram back then when I shared more about my kids, like how he's doing his progression. He had to have hernia surgery before he was able to be released from the hospital. But he couldn't have hernia surgery until he hit at least four pounds.

And he didn't hit four pounds until maybe two weeks before he was discharged. He came home at four pounds, nine ounces. Like still a very teeny tiny baby. So that was one of those things where God just really...

It's like the light in the dark where something so magical is happening as you see God's hand clearly at work. But it's like your devastation in the process where you're going through the thick of it. And you're just like, okay, God, I see what you're doing. I see how you're working. I see how you're moving. But also I feel, you know, I feel these certain ways. And that sounds really selfish because the Lord is enough, right? That's again.

Growing up in the church, you're always told the Lord is enough. His will should be your will. And you know all these things on an academic level, or at least I do. I know all these things at a very like meta level, but then when you're going through the valley, you're just like, okay, I need to really hold on to what I know to be true, because right now I'm feeling.

Like I want to curl up in a ball and just sob for days on end, which is not helpful to anyone. And my mom, I love my mom, but she's not a very, she's like, she's a very tough woman. And she had to be a very tough woman growing up the way she did. And so it's just like, why are you crying? Nothing's going to change. You crying doesn't help the situation. Like suck it up at her cup and keep it moving is very much how I grew up. And so.

Having to like keep it all together was also something that God was also breaking down in me in that season of just like having a pride of like knowing God and knowing him and knowing all these things, but also suffering. It was just really hard for me in that season. And then when I had my daughter, cause I didn't have time to have postpartum depression with my son. I didn't have time for any of that because we were in survival mode. And then when I had my daughter, I was like,

What is this feeling? Like, what are all of these hormones? And I'm like, is it because I had a girl versus a boy? But with my daughter, I had a rough pregnancy. I was just so sick. And granted, I also had a two-year-old that I was taking care of. And so I had to have a scheduled C-section with my daughter. And I had her during COVID. I had her in 2020. So that added a whole other layer. Like, I have all these moms who've had amazing, beautiful birth stories.

And that's never been my journey. For whatever reason, God's just like, no, that's just not going to be your journey. And that's not a lot of mom's journeys, which is, you know, it's fine. But it was one of those things where I went and I had to have an emergency or I had to have a scheduled C-section with my daughter. And it was during COVID and my husband wasn't allowed to triage with me. And so I'm already hormonal. I'm already like in my feels.

And God just sent this sweet little reminder by my labor and delivery nurse who I had never met before. She was an ex Yosemite park ranger. And I was like, Yosemite is my husband in my place. I grew up going there. We got engaged on top of Half Dome. We did our pregnancy announcement with my son in Yosemite. We did my daughter's gender reveal in Yosemite. So for me to already have all this anxious feelings about having to deliver again.

and then God sending me an ex-Useminy National Park Service worker as my nurse. I was just, okay, God, thank you. Thank you because here I am stressing out. I actually had a panic attack on the ⁓ operating table with my daughter because the anesthesia crept up and it made me feel like I couldn't breathe.

And the anesthesiologist was like, you're fine. everything, like your oxygen level is fine. I'm like, I feel like I'm dying. Just put, you know, the cannula in my nose so I at least get oxygen flows. At least my brain thinks that I can breathe. Yeah, it's just giving life is gnarly.

But God is in that as well because we prayed before each delivery and we've had two healthyish babies. Like they're both healthy now. They've had their own struggles. My daughter, if she has a high fever, will have a seizure. So I'm like, you're supposed to be my well baby. Why are you having to, you know? So whenever she gets sick or whenever it's too hot, we're always on high alert for her.

Yeah, parenting, people like to say that it's hard for various amounts of reasons, but I feel like it's, apart from marrying my husband, it's one of the most sanctifying things that have happened because you really just check yourself at the door. like, um, whenever I would be overwhelmed and I like frustrated with them when they were little. And even now I would say, I know you didn't ask to be here. I am so sorry.

I am trying my best because they didn't. They didn't ask to be born. They didn't, you know, ask to have to go to school when they don't want to go to school. And I'm just like, this is, I'm like, mommy and daddy are doing their best. basically like work with me here, please. And, and like having them also now growing up in the church, like my daughter, her new favorite song is reckless love.

McKenzie Smith (40:21)
Yeah

Denise Graves (40:33)
but it's like the Stephanie Gerzinger version of it where it's like a 10 minute like live version. And so we listen to that whenever we go to school. And it's just kind of, it comes around full circle where I've had these gnarly deliveries. And then God is also like now delivering my children and I back to Himself and bringing us back to Himself in like that cycle of

redemption and reconciliation and love and seeing that in my kids. Like my son accepted Jesus, he ate last year, I think before bed. He's like, mom, I want to accept Jesus into my heart, unprompted. And I was like, okay, let's go. This is happening, like in my head, you know? And so I was like, okay, Beth, like, do you know what that means? And kind of like helping him unpack that.

McKenzie Smith (41:19)
Yeah.

Denise Graves (41:26)
He's like, yeah, you know, this is what it means. And just like hearing them talk about God and how God is like showing himself to them. And also them again, I named them cedar and river. So they're they're very much, you know, they see their names in the Bible, too. It's like there's a river everywhere in the Bible. So they they get really excited to feel like they're well, not feel, but they are.

McKenzie Smith (41:44)
Yeah.

Denise Graves (41:53)
a part of this family, a part of the body of Christ. And it's just, God has given me these two blessings that even though they came out of stressful and traumatic and chaotic situations, he's just showing that he redeems everything back to himself. And just seeing that with the kids now being almost five and eight years old ⁓ has been a really sweet, sweet season to be in, because it hasn't been easy at all. But again, Romans 12, 12.

We hold on to that scripture.

McKenzie Smith (42:26)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think we have a little bit of understanding now why that verse is so important to you. ⁓ But man, you covered a lot there. I'm going to I'm going to recap a few. No, it's OK. I'm going to recap a few things. ⁓ I love that you said, you know, that you kind of got to experience this. You used the word tangible miracle. ⁓

Denise Graves (42:33)
Yeah.

Sorry.

McKenzie Smith (42:51)
because you know I feel like so often we can read these about these miracles in the Bible and we can be like yeah that's really cool but to actually like see something miraculous happen in our our own personal lives I think is definitely just like helps us grip onto that a little bit more and to actually see God working through a situation that looks impossible you know to the to the human flesh.

And I know that that's been like a big part of my story too in having a tangible miracle to hold on to. And so I just know how valuable that is. And I think that it's just a special gift that God gives us to

to really teach us a little bit about himself and ⁓ just to kind of show us also like he's the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Like I think so often we can like forget, you know, or be like, yeah, God did that in the Old Testament or, you know, in the New Testament or whatever, but like, where's he at today? You know, and so to get these little tangible miracles in our life, I think are super special little gifts. ⁓

Denise Graves (43:38)
Yes

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (43:54)
You talked about your mom and her, you know, kind of church and just all these strangers praying for you guys. I think that there is so much power in prayer. And I think just what a, what a blessing that all these people were praying for Cedar and for him in the, in the, in the church and just, ⁓

But now they even know him as the miracle baby. think that that's not only your little miracle, but now they got to be a part in interceding on his behalf and seeing God work through that situation. ⁓ And so just a good reminder for all of us to invite people around. I think so often we're like, we don't want to tell people that we're struggling or we don't want to look vulnerable.

Denise Graves (44:23)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (44:38)
And it's like, man, you're missing out if you don't give people the opportunity to pray for you. And so there's so much power in that. And we just we have to allow people to pray for us because there's there's power in that. But one thing that you talked about that I kind of want to dig just a little bit more into is, you know, you talked about, you know, nobody necessarily put this on you, but it definitely is a historical, you know, idea.

Denise Graves (44:50)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (45:06)
And I would also say, you know, it's a biblical idea. Like we were created to also procreate and, you know, we were, as women, we were made to, you know, birth and that sort of thing. And so, you know, you talked about kind of that being a crucial role in who you believe women to be and having like failed at that one thing that you feel like you were created to do. And also.

Denise Graves (45:11)
Yeah. ⁓

McKenzie Smith (45:32)
you know, you hear of all these people having these like miraculous or these not even miraculous, just, you know, beautiful birth stories and their birth, births going according to plan. And, you know, I think I see all these things now like this is my birth plan and this is gonna have my baby and this is, you know, how it's all gonna work out. And I'm like, that sounds crazy to me that you think that there's like this plan that's gonna work out perfectly. And

Denise Graves (45:47)
Yeah.

No. ⁓

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (45:59)
You know, as you were talking about that kind of came into mind, you know, obviously comparison is that the thief of joy and you still at the end of the day had this beautiful baby and you you now have this, have this very joyful thing in your life. ⁓ but there's a piece of that that is, is hard to reconcile and it's, know, having feeling like you failed while also, you know, things not going, you know, according to plan. And so we'd love for you to just kind of speak into that piece of it a little bit more on how you've like.

Denise Graves (46:05)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Smith (46:29)
reconciled that piece of it or how or like what's helped you ⁓ in that season and also like encouragement or advice to people who are walking through that season of like yeah I don't know talk to us about that

Denise Graves (46:46)
Yeah, yeah, and I'll try not

to cry. I'm a big crier. And so I think that's why I kind of like sped up on that part because I could feel my eyes falling up because it was really hard to like I felt like I felt myself I felt my husband, you know, it's just like, you did your part. Now it's my turn to do my part. And I like ate healthy. I did everything I could as a first time mom, like I made sure to go to all my appointments to

eat the right way to still remain active. Like I climbed up to 25 weeks pregnant, like not gnarly climbs, but I still tried to move my body. And it's one of those things where I felt like I was doing everything right. And then everything went so wrong. And it's just, no Lord, I ticked every box. Like I did what I was supposed to do. And yet it still wasn't enough. And that's where God is like, I am enough.

You know, and it was just that reminder of, always struggled with ⁓ the story of the prodigal son, not being the prodigal son, but being the older, the older brother where it's like, no, I did everything right. Why do I now have to split my inheritance with somebody who blew it all? You know, and I think it was just another one of those seasons where God was just kind of reminding me of what he brought me out of, ⁓ where it's just like, yes, you can still do everything right.

and still have everything look okay on the outside, but how is your heart? Like internally, what are we dealing with now? ⁓ Like I'm trying and it's, so my son is special needs, so he has autism and ADHD. And so I'm reminded constantly about my birth story because I'm having to fill it out on an IEP or I'm having to fill it out on a new assessment. And just recently,

And mind you, he's eight. Just recently, I didn't cry filling out an assessment and I saw that as a huge victory. it's, know, healing is an ongoing process. Like it's just like with grief. I grieved the idea of what a perfect pregnancy looked like. I, you know, I had to grieve that. had to acknowledge what wasn't.

and hold on to what actually happened and process that and unpack that. ⁓ And I did that by, like, I didn't have friends or family who had gone through it. So I did that by like talking to God. And ⁓ it was crazy. did, we, when my son was one, we filmed his birth story. It's the only video I have on YouTube ⁓ and it's still up now. It's the only one that's up now. And

just hearing other moms relate from different countries, like, my gosh, my child, Cedar got diagnosed with IUGR, which is inner uterine growth restriction. So that's what happened to him. He just stopped growing in utero. And so hearing these other women that's like, that's what my kid just got diagnosed with as they're pregnant, and hearing their stories and letting them know that they're not alone in that. just.

being able to open up and being vulnerable to share my story and to find this community of moms and women who are terrified but are still pushing through because as moms, that's what we have to do. ⁓ And in our NICU, there was two other families that were there for a long period of time. Like I said, we were there for nine weeks. So just over just like two months.

And there was two other families whose babies were also born around the same time, who was there for that period of time and just becoming friends with those moms because we knew what we were going through because it felt so isolating. Like no one knew what I was feeling, how I was feeling because no one had ever experienced it before. And as much as people wanted to help, like I still felt alone in that. ⁓

but the God was with me. So I was alone in the physical, but in the spiritual I knew I had God, if that makes sense. And yeah, just.

I know I feel like I sound like a broken record, but just like remembering everything he brought me out of. Like I've seen, like my dad was an orphan. My mom didn't grow up with her siblings. So it's like, and they had to flee a war-ridden country. So it's like, I already grew up with examples of what God does and how he moved. And so I knew everything was gonna be okay. It was just a matter of allowing myself to feel my feels, allowing myself to talk to.

people who are going to call me out my crap. Cause that you don't want yes people in Christianity. You don't want people hyping you up and blowing smoke and just being happy, clappy. Like you want people to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. And I thankfully had a small enough circle of friends that I can do that with that I could really trust ⁓ and that God used to bring me out of that season.

And we had a really great church family too that was just sustaining us, bringing us meals. Guys, bring a new, doesn't matter if they're NICU or just regular, bring moms and dads or any parent who just had a baby, bring them meals. You know, it doesn't have to be anything fancy. Give them an Uber Eats code, like give them a grocery ⁓ gift card. That just.

McKenzie Smith (52:18)
Yeah.

Denise Graves (52:28)
it goes so far because it's one less thing that you have to think about, you know, when all you want to do is like focus on yourself ⁓ and focus on the baby and also acknowledge like I feel like we grew up in a generation where like postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, like all these things were like, no, that that's not real. And it's like, but it is, you know, and hormones are wild. And until like,

McKenzie Smith (52:32)
Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Denise Graves (52:58)
I was like, okay, like how bad can it be? And then I'm like, ⁓ it can be okay. Like I was already starting to feel it in my second pregnancy, like before I even had the baby and I was like, this is wild. I'm like, these are not thoughts from the Lord. I'm like, these are not what I know to be true and what I've experienced in the past. And so just knowing that it's okay to not be okay and that God is with you and to talk about it.

with others ⁓ would be how I'd say like I got through it and over it, but it's still a wound that's healing, but it's still a wound. know, like there's a scar there. So I'm still constantly reminded of it, but I can now see in hindsight, like rejoice in it because God used that to connect so many people together.

McKenzie Smith (53:51)
Yeah, absolutely. ⁓

As you were saying the thing about the meals, I was at a baby shower recently and we did the coolest thing ever. And I'd highly recommend this to anyone who's throwing a baby shower for a friend. we made part of it was we all brought like an ingredient of food and we made these like freezer meals. So we put all the ingredients together in a bag with like a sticker on it. So you know exactly what to put in each bag. And then the mom goes to take them home, put them in their freezer in there for whenever she had the baby. I was like, that's such a cool idea because they need that. ⁓

Denise Graves (53:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's amazing. Because I've only ever done like the meal train where we like signed up to bring something. But I like that idea.

McKenzie Smith (54:24)
B-

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, it was really unique. I had never seen it before and I was like, this is a great idea.

Denise Graves (54:36)
Yes.

McKenzie Smith (54:39)
My dog is literally sitting right, can you hear her panting? ⁓ she's literally sitting at the door. My husband took them to the park and she's, ⁓ sorry, I'll cut that out. But I'm just like, can you hear that? Because it's loud to me. You're good, you're good. ⁓

Denise Graves (54:40)
So cute.

That's You're good. I'm like trying not to sniffle too. I'm just like...

McKenzie Smith (55:04)
So Denise, for when I hear your story, think that there is, God did it. God does miracles all the time and just bringing humans and into into onto this planet. Right. That's a miracle in and of itself. And so, ⁓ you know, your baby was born. He's alive. He's healthy. He is. ⁓ Words, gosh, I lost my whole train of thought.

Denise Graves (55:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (55:34)
So, Denise, whenever I hear your story, I think that, you know, just bringing life into this world is a miracle in and of itself. And whether that is good, bad, ugly, everything in between, is still a huge miracle. And there's nothing in my mind that is failure in that space for a mom who brings a child into the world, regardless of how that happened. But I think that we get so caught up in making a plan. You know, I talked about birth plans and we have these ideas of how this should go.

What is a, you know, something that you would say to someone who's planning to have children that, you know, wants to make this plan, but like knowing that it could go a totally different way without like instilling this just like crazy fear in them. You know, obviously your story is one that is, is hard. It's tragic. There's a lot of, a lot of heart in that, know, not only was your baby, ⁓

Denise Graves (56:22)
Yeah

McKenzie Smith (56:31)
sick and had to stay in the NICU for nine weeks, but you you also had some health complications as a part of that. So how do you like prepare someone for birth in a realistic way, you know, without scaring them or, know, giving them your trauma, but also like saying like, Hey, may not go according to plan. Like what advice would you, you know, just like speak into that, that place there.

Denise Graves (56:42)
Yeah.

I would say first and foremost be open to any kind of delivery because I you know I had my plan I had my birth plan because that's what's recommended you know I got the sheet off of Pinterest and I had it filled out with what music I wanted to be playing you know and if I wanted an epidural and all the all the different things because you'd be amazed at how much information is out there for you to

McKenzie Smith (57:06)
you

Denise Graves (57:24)
create your birth plan and like what's in your hospital bag and you see all these like pack my hospital bag with me for delivery room. You see all these things out there and those things are great. I'm not saying they're not. I like I did it with my second baby because I had the luxury if you will of planning my c-section and knowing when it was going to happen. ⁓ I didn't have a hospital bag packed with my son ⁓ or anything that I needed for him.

But one thing I would say is just, there's some women that I know and I've heard even with friends that like have gone to the hospital and then had to have an emergency C-section and they knew nothing about the C-section process or what happened. I kind of was one of them where I didn't, with Cedar, didn't even actually get to the point.

to go to the hospital and do the classes, because he came so early, usually around 34, 35 weeks. like, hey, come visit the hospital and come see us. I didn't even get there with Cedar. So what I would say is I've had friends who had to, where the doctor told them, hey, you may have to have a C-section. And they're like, well, what is that? So just.

Look at all options and it's not saying that that's what you're gonna have. I feel like there's always a fear like, know, manifesting is a thing or like speaking it into the universe. There's so many people have a fear of not saying it or like if I say it out loud, then it's gonna happen. Like, no, I don't wanna look into a C-section, because then of course that's what's gonna happen, you know? And like don't live in out of fear. Don't live, you know, in the spirit of fear. Like you...

What's going to happen is going to happen. And that's, it's awful to say, but again, that's how I was raised with my mom. It happened. What's going to happen is going to happen. And that doesn't mean you can't plan and that you can't look into the ways that you would like them to go, but it just means like, be okay if there does have to be a shift. And I know that's easier said than done. Like in the hospital when we went and I had to do like my non-stress test, like I was a

cool cucumber from the time I got the phone call at work. I was at work when I got the phone call from my OB that I needed to go to an ultrasound specialist. And then from the ultrasound specialist to going to the hospital to the ER to, you know, the ultrasound specialist like, yeah, you need to go to the hospital and go into triage and see what's going on with this baby. From that to going to triage and being there for like two hours and then saying, yeah, like.

it's a Thursday, baby's probably not gonna come until, you know, Monday. And I'm like, okay, but that's still nine weeks early. Like, what are you talking about? And then going from triage to you're getting admitted. I was like, you wouldn't think anything was wrong with me. I was just like, oh yeah, we're just going to the next thing. And then as soon as I got admitted, sobbing. Like, I was just every emotion that I had suppressed up until that point.

just floodgated out of me. And know that when you create your plan, that may happen and it may not happen and both are okay. So as you're getting into the season of kind of figuring out what you want your birth, do you want to have a doula? Do you want to have, you know, a home birth? Do you want to have a midwife with you? Like there's so many options for women, which is amazing. It's not just

It's not just one thing. You have so many things open to you. So my advice would just be research, do your research, and then find what's best for you and your family. And everyone else who disagrees with you can go kick rocks because this is your life and your pregnancy.

McKenzie Smith (1:01:25)
Yeah, absolutely. I love what you said. It's okay to make a plan, but be prepared for it not to go accordingly.

Denise Graves (1:01:27)
You

McKenzie Smith (1:01:33)
Also, I liked what you said about, you know, researching all of the possibilities because I can't imagine how scary that would be to be like, yeah, I had this total plan that I was going to, you know, do whatever and I didn't look into anything else. And then now that something else goes wrong, you have no idea what is going on or like what to expect or anything about that process. So I think that it's good to research all the things that could possibly happen and, you know, make your plan, but then it's going to happen.

But then also like you know just from from my side like Don't have shame or guilt or anything if it doesn't go according to plan You still have this beautiful, baby, and you still have this gift and that is a miracle in and of itself So there's no failure there in that world But I just think you Denise so much for sharing this I know that this is a new topic for us here on the podcast and it is something that I was really excited about to talk to you about just because you know I

Denise Graves (1:02:03)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. ⁓

McKenzie Smith (1:02:33)
This is something that I feel like most people don't talk about, know, it's just yeah had a baby and it was great and you know, it's like Yeah But it wasn't really you know, and so just like giving some insight and it's not to scare people like this You know, like you said don't limit don't live in a spirit of fear, but also like know that There are other things that can happen and be prepared for that And so I just thank you so much for sharing and I would love for you to share with those nurses like where they can

Denise Graves (1:02:39)
Yeah.

McKenzie Smith (1:03:01)
find you and where they can connect with you.

Denise Graves (1:03:04)
Yeah, I am on Instagram mainly at Denise B Graves. You can find me there. I do have a TikTok. don't I feel like my TikTok is always me like, Hey guys, sorry, I haven't posted in a while. So that's just like running content. ⁓ And then I do have Facebook, but that's where my like family from El Salvador can keep in contact with me. So if you find me on any of those platforms, feel free to add me. But

the most activity is on Instagram.

McKenzie Smith (1:03:35)
Yeah, very cool. Well,

again, thank you so much for sharing and for being here and for just encouraging ⁓ those who may be in a season of not having the perfect birth story, but any birth story is a perfect birth story. And so just thank you again so much.

Denise Graves (1:03:51)
Thank you. ⁓