080 - Vaginismus: Healing From the Inside Out with Sam Dukes

In this episode, Sam Dukes shares her journey of growing up in Alaska, her love for the outdoors, and how these experiences shaped her relationship with God. She discusses the challenges of intimacy in marriage, particularly her struggles with vaginismus, and the healing journey she has embarked on. Sam emphasizes the importance of communication, vulnerability, and finding joy in trials.

Connect with Sam via email: sammareedukes@gmail.com
Resources:
Jess Seitz website and Vaginismus Program: https://painfreeintimacy.com/
Spotify playlist I made to worship through the trials: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1RyoQrNtIo8VcmnqJ62p9r?si=a56622ae8b8a4043
Francie Winslow's Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/heaven-in-your-home/id1493541368

Books that have really ministered to me in this season:
CLICK HERE FOR LIST

Resources for Teaching Healthy Sexuality to Our Kids:
-Puberty Course for Moms & Daughters: https://www.bodytalkbasics.com/
-Great account with lots of tips:  https://www.instagram.com/birds__bees/?hl=en

Transcript

McKenzie Piland (00:00)
On today's episode of My Valley, His Victory, we have Sam Dukes. She lives in Palmer, Alaska, has been married for 12 years to her sweet husband Daniel, and they have two children. She is a recovering pessimist who is learning to find joy in the mundane, loves exploring new places with her family, ice matcha, and buying new books. Thanks so much for being with us today, Sam.

Sam Dukes (00:21)
Thanks so much for having me. It's a blessing to be here.

McKenzie Piland (00:24)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to just go ahead and throw in the disclaimer now. We today listeners are going to be talking a lot about sex and about our private parts and about all things intimacy and marriage. And so if that is a topic that maybe you struggle with, I just want to go ahead and like put this in here now, let you guys know that that is what we're going to be talking about. So if you need to tune out, totally understand, catch back on the next one. But that is some of the things that we're going to be covering today. So.

Sam Dukes (00:27)
Okay.

McKenzie Piland (00:51)
Without further ado, Sam, I would love for you to just share with the listeners a little bit more about yourself and who you are.

Sam Dukes (00:56)
Yeah, awesome. So I'm Sam. I live in South Central Alaska and we've been here for about three years and we are really, really loving it and enjoying it. And I am a at home mom, which I really love. I'm really blessed to be able to do that. And I homeschool my kids. So that's been a fun kind of adventure for me and figuring all that out. And I love to bake. I love to knit.

I love to read, so I'm kind of a grandma, I guess, at heart. And of course, I love to be outside. I really love adventuring and exploring new places, and I'm pretty much always down for doing an adventure of any sort.

McKenzie Piland (01:38)
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you have leaned into the whole Alaska life of, you know, just sticking with some of those older traditions, reading books, cooking, knitting, all of the things. I think that's so fun. And there's no shame in being a grandma. Hey, we need people with those skills in life, okay? So kind of talk to us a little bit. I know you're originally from Alaska.

Sam Dukes (01:50)
Yeah.

McKenzie Piland (02:00)
not super common, would say. so share with us just a little bit about what it was like growing up in Alaska and maybe how that has, you know, fostered your love for the outdoors and adventure.

Sam Dukes (02:10)
Yeah, yeah, I lucky, I think, to be able to be growing up here. And I grew up in a town called Fairbanks, is kind of in the center of Alaska. And so the winters were really, really intense. Alaska, the whole state is intense. specifically is, are just extra, extra dark and cold.

a reference where I live now, about six and a half hours south-ish from Fairbanks almost three hours more sunlight here than in Fairbanks So yeah, so that's like a huge difference though growing up I didn't even it didn't faze me gotten older it has been a little harder, but I think just being outside and

the winters are long. And so when you have summer you just, my childhood is just memories of basically me being outside. And even in the winter, I just have all memories basically of, you know, building snow forts and in the summer too. And just like being in the trees, being barefoot all summer long. that experience was so special and not being in a large city, although

that has its great things too, but just being able to experience a place where there's not that many people really, when I think a lot of people don't actually understand how big Alaska is. So population ratio to the land is crazy. And so being able to just drive a few hours and you can be somewhere where there's nobody else for so many miles and just that isolation.

and experiencing like I don't know if anybody else has really even walked in this place that I'm walking right now and that's pretty like that's a weird experience and really cool yeah I definitely think my upbringing absolutely fostered my love for the outdoors in so many ways so it's really special to me that I got to grow up here.

McKenzie Piland (04:08)
Yeah. I, your husband, I know you said originally isn't from Alaska. How did he adjust to the darkness and all the things? Because I feel like it is a very huge culture shock to go to Alaska and you know, one deal with the darkness to deal with the freezing cold, lots of snow, like

Sam Dukes (04:28)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (04:29)
locked in your house kind of deal, you know what I mean? And so I don't know how was that transition for someone who maybe didn't grow up there.

Sam Dukes (04:30)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, no, it was, he loved, because he visited for a while, we dated long distance, and so he just would visit and he loved his visits. And then when got married in California, so I ended up living there for nine years got married. But then when we decided we didn't want to live there anymore and we came back, it was a big culture shock for him. I mean, it was a big culture shock for me going to California. So. ⁓

McKenzie Piland (05:00)
You

Sam Dukes (05:01)
came, we came to Fairbanks and we actually lived in Fairbanks for a year after we moved. And then we kind of decided we didn't want to be there. And I think a big reason was because it was just too intense for him coming from California. so I think it was a big culture shock, then when now where we live, because it's less intense, totally become an Alaskan.

We've transitioned him, yeah. on Alaskan now. When we go back and visit California, he'll make comments like, man, I don't miss the traffic. I don't miss the smog. don't, know. yeah, I think he really loves it now.

McKenzie Piland (05:22)
You

Yeah, definitely. So being an adult, being someone that has a couple of kids now, what does getting outdoors look like for you? What do you like to do whenever you get out?

Sam Dukes (05:48)
Yeah,

we do so many hikes. I think that's probably the main thing we do, partly because where we live, I could do a new hike every week for the rest of my life and still not do all the hikes that are here. It's just that vast where we are right here. And that's been so fun because Fairbanks actually doesn't have that much hiking opportunities, really. You kind of have to drive a bit to get to hiking. here I can, you know, literally drive like 10 minutes and I could be to a hike.

And so that's just been so much fun to be able to explore all the places and in the summer we try to do camping, tent camping specifically, which is fun and maybe not so fun sometimes in the rain, but it's super fun. I, when I moved here, we don't have family or anything and or friends here. So that was a bit of, it was a little hard when we first got here to not have community. And so I actually started a kind of a mom

I guess you'd call it like a walking group. ⁓ I really wanted a forest school when we moved here and there weren't any, which I was really surprised by because there's a lot in Fairbanks and there's a lot even in California. So I was expecting more options here and there's some, you have to drive like an hour or more to get to them. And so I just texted, like I knew a friend of a friend was moving here and I knew that she had been in a forest school before. And so I was like, hey, do you wanna like start a walking group together? And so, and.

My personality, think sometimes I need accountability or I won't do something I can be a homebody. And so I was like, I need some accountability. So, I messaged her and she was like, absolutely. So it's been over a year now and we've been faithfully meeting almost every week hikes with the kids. And we've been trying to do foraging and that's been really, really fun to learn the plants. That's kind of been one of my goals since moving here is to.

to learn all the plants around me and be able to identify them and use them for things, which has been really fun. this last winter, we got cross-country skis, which has been so fun. kind of like a outlet for the winter and that we can do as a family has been so much fun. And the kids even love it, and I was a little worried.

My youngest is six, so I was like, I'm not sure if she, but no, she loves it. She does it so great. And so been fun. I think just any opportunity that I get where I can do some sort of adventure, try to, even if it feels like, in the moment, I'm always so glad I did it. And so I kind of try to push myself to do those things. And I actually got an opportunity to do, about a month ago, to do a four day sea kayaking trip.

off the coast of Alaska. was just phenomenal. amazing. And it was four other moms who went and sister's friend is the one who planned it all. And going in completely blind basically. Like I didn't know what we were doing. I didn't know it. Like all I had was my packing list. And I went in and I'm just like, okay, tell me what we're doing. And it was so much fun.

McKenzie Piland (08:28)
That's

Hahaha

Sam Dukes (08:49)
I was feeling a little nervous about it going into it, but then it was just, yeah, it was just so great. And we spent four days kayaking around island off the coast of Valdez being in a place again, where it's like, maybe not very many people have stepped foot here. Like it's untouched by humans and that's just really special to experience. So yeah, that's kind of ⁓ a hodgepodge of things, but.

McKenzie Piland (09:14)
Yeah, absolutely. Were you guys camping along the kayak journey? So you had all your camping stuff with you? Okay. And is this the time of year where there are whales in Alaska? Did you guys see...

Sam Dukes (09:20)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yes, yes, so we got, yes, we actually got

to see orcas and their babies. Yes, so fun, it was amazing and we actually saw, I think it was a humpback, super far off so we couldn't see it too much, but tons of sea lions and things like that, so yeah, so fun. Yep. Yep. Yes. You should, yes.

McKenzie Piland (09:33)
⁓ that's so sweet.

man, that's super special. That sounds like so much fun. I'm like, sign me up. Can I come next time?

I'm like looking for any reason to go back to Alaska, so.

Sam Dukes (09:56)
I'll let you know next time.

McKenzie Piland (09:58)
that's great. I love that. I would love for you to share just, know, obviously it sounds like you spend a lot of time outside and that's kind of just the culture in Alaska, right? And that is just kind of what it is built around is being outside, doing things like foraging, kind of that homemaking, ⁓ homesteading kind of lifestyle. Kind of talk to us about how being in the outdoors plays a role specifically in your relationship with Christ.

Sam Dukes (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, I have always felt closest to God outside. I feel to Him when I'm outside. think often being in His creation, on days if I'm in a funk or I'm overthinking or whatever it might be, or maybe my posture, my heart posture is not quite right. And it's just like going outside can often snap me out.

of that whatever that thing that I was in and it kind of brings me back to him and brings me back to that wonder and awe of just his creation and is also one of my secret places which doesn't mean anything to you that's like I read this book called of the Secret Place by Bob Sorge which I

Side note, I've read so many books over the last, I don't know, that have just really ministered to me. And I won't list them all, because there's so many, but maybe I can give you the list and you can put it in the show notes or something if people are curious. But that book is so great and I highly recommend it. And it just, it just, I think, helped me kind of reminded of how important it is to seek out that secret place with the Lord continually, daily.

for sure, you know, and realizing that outside that for me, was one of the places for me where I ceased to not feel him when I was in outside. I'm extra blessed that I live somewhere where I can just look out my window and see beauty. that that's possible anywhere you live too. might take a little more effort. But so many scriptures of, you know,

the writers talking about the secret place and that and I love I think it's in Psalms when he refers to it as the secret place of thunder and I just love that imagery like going to God in his creation and like just him being like this thunderous presence being like in that awe and wonder of him the outside is

It's really that place for me.

McKenzie Piland (12:30)
Yeah, yeah, I've never heard of that book before, so I definitely wrote it down and I'm going to have to check it out. But it reminds me, it reminds me of we were at a like marriage conference last year. It was almost a year ago now at this point and they were talking about like having a very dedicated place that, you go and you commune with the Lord. And that's not to say that we can't do it, you know, in the in between moments and when we're driving and all of that. But there is something kind of like.

Sam Dukes (12:34)
So good.

Yes.

McKenzie Piland (12:57)
a reverence to a place if you know that that's where you're going to spend time with the Lord and you have that intentionality and it's not like when you're sitting on the toilet. That was the example that they use. were like, don't you know that God is holy? Do you really want to be inviting him into your bathroom time? And it was like, I mean, if that's the only time you have, man, use it. But like, we need to have a dedicated place.

Sam Dukes (13:16)
That's so funny.

Right. Yes.

Absolutely. Yes.

McKenzie Piland (13:27)
that we know like we're, you like I said, we're being intentional and we're going to meet God there. And that's kind of maybe like the only thing we do there. ⁓ So, so I think that's really cool. I'm going to have to definitely check out that book. I would love for you to share a specific story about a way in which maybe God has spoken to you or revealed himself to you through the outdoors.

Sam Dukes (13:34)
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely.

there are many, but ⁓ main ones that come to mind is, I think my earliest memory would be, don't remember exactly how old I was, but I want to say around 10-ish. Growing up, we often would go to this other town called McCarthy, which is about, it's almost eight hours away from Fairbanks East. So a drive, and we would go every year for 4th of July.

is not, it doesn't have mountains right near it. And so it's just kind of hills. It's beautiful, but it's just not mountainous beautiful. much all I had ever known, you know? And so then going to McCarthy, there's like mountains right there. And that I just vividly remember being kind of blown away by it. And, we had this camping spot that we would always go to. And there was like a little hill that you could climb up. And I remember climbing up that hill and just

McKenzie Piland (14:34)
you

Sam Dukes (14:40)
It was kind of like a ridge and I was just sitting on the ridge and before me was just the vast wilderness and the mountain ranges and just like, felt like I could see forever. And at the time I probably wouldn't have been able to put towards what I was experiencing, but now I can look back and just see like, I was, you know, experiencing God's presence. I was sitting in that childlike wonder, which...

I'm like, you know what, at some point growing up, I lost a lot of that childlike wonder, trying to get back now, but just see and year we would go back, I would do the same thing. I would go and sit in my little spot that I had on that ridge and I would just sit there and just feeling God's presence there and just being in so much, understanding His greatness, I think, being able to see that before me.

McKenzie Piland (15:18)
.

Sam Dukes (15:32)
probably like my earliest and sweetest memory that I have of one would be I've been to New Zealand twice. the first time I was about 19, I think, and I did an adventure Bible school there, which was phenomenal. And I just have so many amazing memories from that. I loved every second of it. It pushed me so far out of my comfort zone in every single way, but like in the best way. And I this one experience we had

went at night and we hiked through the jungle and we found like this secret cave in like the middle of this jungle like go into the cave and there's a river flowing through the cave and there's glow worms in New Zealand, they're actually not worms. They're beetles, I believe, but at night they glow like little blue dots almost and so we're sitting in this like dark

cave and it just looks like there's it looks like the night sky is right above you and are just like millions of these glow worms covering the whole cave and I our whole group sitting in that cave for a long time just like singing hymns and worshiping and that experience I think just I'll never forget that just it felt again God's presence

McKenzie Piland (16:28)
You

Sam Dukes (16:54)
and felt like the angels there worshiping with us, like in a way, if that makes sense. that holiness and reverence filled with awe God has created in like these crazy little beetles, but they're like so beautiful. just crazy that he created all these tiny details and

McKenzie Piland (17:00)
Mm.

Sam Dukes (17:18)
get to experience that and that's so special and I hope this doesn't sound too like woo-woo but it's like my these experiences that I've had in the outdoors it's as if my soul can feel worshipping like I can feel creation crying out and worship to God.

McKenzie Piland (17:26)
You

I don't think that sounds woo woo at all. I think that is just you noticing and being so aware and so in the present moment that you can look around and you can see how all of his creation is doing what he said, you know, it will do. And so I don't think that's woo woo at all. I'm here for that. I'm here for that. I think that's.

Sam Dukes (17:42)
Okay, good.

Okay, great.

McKenzie Piland (18:01)
I couldn't almost, I can picture that moment that you're talking about. I mean, I've never even seen these Beatles, but I'm like the cave, the imagery, just all of it. And I'm like, how could you not? Like, yeah, I mean, I'm with you on that one. But I think it's interesting, you know, that you said about the story, the first story you shared just about, you know, having that childlike wonder. And, you you made the comment, like at some point we lost.

Sam Dukes (18:08)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (18:24)
You've lost that. think we've all lost that in some way and it's, you know, we're all kind of trying to get it back now. But I think for me personally, you know, one of the ways that I've seen that integrate back in my life is through being in the outdoors because what did, what did, what do kids do whenever they're little, they play in the dirt, they roll around outside, they look at the grass, they look at the trees and you know, kind of things come alive and there's, there's a like,

Sam Dukes (18:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

McKenzie Piland (18:51)
You lose a seriousness, I guess in the outside in the outdoors and so I think that there's just such a strong connection that to those things and I know for me it's one of those places that's that's helped me get some of that childlike wonder back because I just look at things and I'm like, my gosh, like I cannot believe You know or like I look at rocks like you know or You know, you're just curious about different things and so

Sam Dukes (18:53)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

McKenzie Piland (19:19)
Yeah, we all need to strive to get that back somehow because we get real serious and at some point it's almost like we get told that that's a bad thing. ⁓ And it's a hard thing to navigate, but you've got to find places you can find that again for sure.

Sam Dukes (19:22)
goodness yes.

Mm. It's so true.

Yes, my kids have done

have helped me to get that back. Because like you were saying, kids are just so pure and innocent. And just notice something and they blurt it out. And it's so great. And just just the other day, we were on a hike. daughter who's six, she we stopped probably every five minutes. she wanted to look at something or she wanted to climb something or she would be like,

look at this amazing tree, its roots. And she would just be so in wonder of like, you know, which probably hundreds of people walk by that tree and never notice it. And she stopped and saw it. ⁓ I had to myself to that wonder with her and not be like, well, we need to keep going let her pause. And it's been so helpful for me to have her me find that wonder back.

McKenzie Piland (20:11)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, definitely. Well, Sam, I know you don't live in a big city, ⁓ but I would love for you to share a practical way that listeners can connect with God through his creation on an everyday basis without being in some of these super magnificent places.

Sam Dukes (20:31)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

so like I had mentioned before I I lived in Southern California I got married to my husband and we lived there for about nine years, I think was Honestly, it was really difficult for me, especially in the beginning that transition And we weren't even in LA or anything. We were you know, kind of in the outskirts suburbs So it wasn't like we were in a ginormous city

there was access for me to get to some mountains and hills. They were brown, but they were there. ⁓ And it still was hard for me. I can at least a teeny bit in that sense. I think that it just takes effort. a big lesson that I learned while I was there. I just had to make a bigger effort. think I was so used to being able to just walk out my front door have stuff right there at my access.

McKenzie Piland (21:13)
Yeah.

Sam Dukes (21:34)
And so it really taught me find beauty creation. And it can be anything. It can be walking in the local park next to me or, you know, like finding a local botanical garden or something. And I think if you live in a really, really huge city and maybe you don't have a car, so maybe you can't drive to go to a hike or something, I think there's still ways. It's just going to take creativity on your part.

that means like you make your little balcony in your apartment kind of your oasis put a bunch of plants on there or whatever it might be and I have a sister-in-law who lives in the heart of New York City and she has taught me so much about finding joy where no matter where you live because single day she finding joy in like the sidewalk or like you know like she's just so good at finding

God's beauty, no matter where she is. And I probably would have said, there's no way I could find that in New York City. Like that sounds so overwhelming to me and terrible and I would never want to live there. like she, she has shown me that that's possible anywhere you are. And that's just been really sweet that. And I think also you can find.

McKenzie Piland (22:42)
you

Sam Dukes (22:52)
you know, beauty and God's creation of humans. So if you do live somewhere where there's maybe not a lot of nature around you, like there's humans everywhere. that's another thing that I've learned is to see, you know, God's image in each person and his creation in each person. And so, I think it just takes a little bit of maybe thinking outside the box, but it's totally doable.

McKenzie Piland (23:17)
Yeah, yeah. I love what you said about your, I think you said sister-in-law because it just reminds me of like...

Sam Dukes (23:21)
Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (23:25)
You know, you're gonna see what you look for. And so if you're only focused on the negative or the ugly or the whatever, then that's what you're gonna be prone to see in any situation. But if you have a heart of gratitude, you have a heart of joy, you have a heart of beauty, like then you're gonna notice those things and you're gonna see those things around you. And so.

Sam Dukes (23:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

McKenzie Piland (23:45)
You gotta pay attention to that and you gotta shift your mindset to I'm only gonna focus on the positive or the beauty or the joyful things. Because it is it is somewhat a mindset thing as well. And yeah, anyways, that's that's good. And I love what you said there at the end about people because I know that can be really hard for us as as humans. We just want to see the flaws, flaws in people and

Sam Dukes (23:57)
100%. ⁓ yeah.

Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (24:15)
We just, we have to see that they are made in God's image and that he loves them just as much as, not as much, more than we do. And they're so loved by God and so we need to love them. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very good. So.

Sam Dukes (24:19)
Yeah.

See you.

Yes.

Yeah.

McKenzie Piland (24:32)
Sam, switching gears into the title of this podcast, My Valley, His Victory. I would love for you to share a valley or season of wilderness, the experience and just what God taught you or prepared you for in that season. And I'm going to give one more disclaimer to the listeners. We're going to go into some sex things. We're going to go into some private part things. We're going to go into some intimate intimacy things in, in marriage. so if that is

Sam Dukes (24:45)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (24:58)
not something that you want to hear, something that could be harmful to you and just where you're at in life right now, please tune out. But I think this is a really important topic and something that I know personally I've never heard talked about and so I'm really excited to dive into it. But go ahead, Sam.

Sam Dukes (25:13)
Okay. Awesome.

Yeah. Okay. So I have been in quite a long season of waiting of grief ⁓ and just kind of seeking a lot of things, but I'll start with the main one. ⁓ I have something called vaginismus, which is basically it's a condition of your pelvic floor where there's dysfunction there and

I would also argue it's ⁓ kind of some dysfunction in your nervous system as well, that's another topic. inserting anything painful or cases, extreme cases, it can be impossible. You can't even get it in. typically this is caused by medical trauma, trauma, or like in intense purity culture.

McKenzie Piland (25:45)
You

Sam Dukes (26:05)
mine was caused, I believe, mostly by my upbringing a lot of the purity culture stuff. And then I did get some with my son, my oldest son's birth. some medical trauma from that. So I think kind of both of those things together. It got a lot worse after his birth. So that's kind of why I think that. before we got married,

So both my husband and I were both virgins when we got married and did some premarital counseling and I didn't know I had it yet. remember going into it and like my pastor even asking us, know, like, how's your view on sex and intimacy? And I remember being like, yeah, healthy. a great view of it. And I can kind of chuckle at that now because.

just can look back and see that that was not accurate at all. And I think I really just didn't know because so much of my beliefs were, you know, they're from birth essentially, like, because they were my upbringing. So they were just so deeply rooted. I just didn't even know that they were there. And they were so subconscious subconscious. So there were so many layers and I just wasn't aware. And so we got married and, you know, everything seemed like

McKenzie Piland (26:53)
You

Sam Dukes (27:22)
quote unquote, okay, for the most part, for the first few years. I can also though look back and see like some of the dysfunction and as it kind of started to spiral. And I want to say it was like maybe two, two or three year mark is when I kind of started noticing would be painful.

or just uncomfortable, but it was very sporadic and it was kind of, sometimes it would be, sometimes it wouldn't be. And I was like, I don't know what's going on with that. And same time, of that, I was also pulling away in some ways and I was putting up walls towards my husband and putting up a lot of guards. you know, a lot of these things are happening again on the subconscious level. Like I wasn't really fully aware that I was even doing them.

just kind of a slow downward spiral years went on and it you know, my libido started completely disappearing years and that was confusing. I just didn't understand what was going on and you know, I started getting to the point where he would just touch me anywhere even if it was, you know, non-sexual just like a hand on my leg or something and my would immediately

jump into fight or or flight ⁓ and was like I it felt like I had no control over that because really I didn't it was so confusing that I was adored my husband and I was so in love with him and it just was like why am I responding this way? Why is my desire completely gone? many instances

over the years that I was like, this is rock bottom. Like, I don't know, so lost. And then it kept just getting kind of worse and worse. And you know, to the point where I would cry myself to sleep, probably like at least four nights out of a week. And a lot of the issues I think stemmed from me not knowing how to communicate. I can look back now and see like, if I had...

known how to communicate that or if I had communicated, we probably could have avoided some of that. because I was expecting him to like read my mind often, women like to do probably. yeah, I wasn't communicating. So he really didn't fully know what was going on. I think I actually didn't even tell him that I was experiencing pain for years. Like not really. And that breaks my heart a little bit that I look back and be like, why?

Why he's the sweetest to me and he cares so much for me. Why would I think that he wouldn't want to know that I was experiencing that? And I just had so much of the, of the, you know, like culture and purity culture mindsets of like, it's my wifely duty. you know, to make sure that I'm pleasing him and all of these things, all these lies really, you know, that believing in. broken.

I felt like riddled with shame and guilt just feeling completely lonely. Like I had no one to talk to about it. And I felt like I couldn't talk about it. And I think that that's a big issue within the church as a whole. so much I could say on that topic specifically, but get into that at the moment. feeling like that was, you know, a hush hush topic.

It's not something that can be brought up. And the few people that I was able to confide in, just, they had no idea. They were like, I never even heard of that. I have no clue. And I, you know, we read a lot of awful advice and we're told awful advice over the years. like terrible, like drink more wine to relax, you know, or like, I got a lot of have more sex because then you'll want it more. a lot of these advices were just.

McKenzie Piland (30:59)
You

Sam Dukes (31:13)
like they really just made it worse. because we weren't addressing the actual issue and in the midst of all of the vaginus stuff happening, also have been dealing with some like secondary infertility and I was able to get pregnant about three years ago and then I ended up miscarrying that baby and then for about the past four years we've wanted to also adopt and

that hasn't out. of seems like God's just been shutting on both of those things and of that happening at the same time as Vaginismus and me like trying to find healing. And it just, it was really feeling like God was to close all these doors. And I felt so confused because like these are good themes.

God wants us, he created sex, he wants us to have a fulfilling and beautiful sex life. He loves children, he wants us to have more children and adopt and all these things and so I just was, I could not understand why it seemed like he was saying no to all these things I was just like sitting in this suffering and I think it is hard to understand if you haven't experienced it but

I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It's probably the hardest thing, one of the hardest things I've ever dealt with just because it felt so isolating felt alone in it. And crazy. I really did. I told my husband so many times, like, I feel like a crazy person because understand why it's like my brain and my body are doing opposite things. And it's just, it felt so...

finally, we, you know, we tried a lot of different things over the years and we finally decided, okay, let's, let's do pelvic floor therapy. We hadn't up to that point because really have typical insurance. So we would have had to pay out of pocket for it. And, but then we finally were like, no, we need to just do this. And so I did PT for a while and it was probably like, I don't know, almost a year, maybe six months to a year. I can't remember exactly, but

she ended up telling me at one point, I can't help you anymore. it wasn't helping, it wasn't really doing anything. And she basically was like, it in a nicer way than this, but she was basically said, help in the brain, which I can laugh at now because I'm past that, but I'm so thankful that she said that to me because not only did she just continue to see me and I waste my money on it, but also that kind of gave me a clue of to what was going on.

this isn't just physical. And I think most of the things I had tried up until that point were kind of just physical focused. after that, we're like, okay, I still didn't know where to turn though. And so if it's like more mental based, then maybe we should do some counseling, sex therapy. so we sought that out again.

we were going have to pay out of pocket, which is, it's crazy how expensive therapy we ended up, like a friend or somebody had just mentioned, like, maybe ask your church and see if they'll help you pay for it. And so we, we ended up meeting with our pastor and he was like, yep, will you have a fund specifically for helping people go to counseling and therapy and stuff? And so they agreed to help us pay for it. And

was just like, okay, that finally felt like a little bit of a relief. then it was through the church, they kind of were the ones to set it up. he had a chance to even set it up, the pastor, he ended up dying suddenly from a heart attack. church kind of fell apart in a lot of ways because obviously nobody was prepared for that. But anyway, we basically couldn't end up doing it. that kind of was like, whoa, another door.

shut, you know, and so again at that point after PT not working out and then the counseling not working out it really I was like well, no, this is rock bottom like because now I felt like I Really had no avid like no avenue to turn to I I felt like I had exhausted all help I had tried everything and I was starting to believe that

and telling myself, think, okay, I think I just have to accept that this is my lot in life. going to be my thorn in the flesh. And I just, I have to accept it of keep getting my hopes up and then them getting torn down. a lot of that was, you know, me trying to myself, but also I think that was a lot of lies.

McKenzie Piland (35:49)
Hmm.

Sam Dukes (36:02)
from the enemy. You know, he wanted me to give up. Of course, of course he wants my marriage to be destroyed in any way he can get it destroyed. So anyway, I'm so thankful God did not allow me to stay there for very long. Thankfully, I want to say it was like maybe a month after that a whole thing happened. I ended up listening to a podcast. It's called Heaven in Your Home by Francie Winslow. Highly recommend. She's amazing.

had a guest on her podcast her name is Jess Sites She was talking about vaginismus and I remember going into that like gonna listen to the episode kind of feeling a little cynical or feeling like probably nothing new that I haven't already heard before because I have listened to everything, you know that attitude the total opposite. It was just like, you know

Here you go. Like it literally was like, this is what you've been waiting for. This is what I've brought you to. And everything she said on that episode was just, just so because it finally felt like, okay, this is my answer. her program, recommend if anyone listening, if you think you have aginismus, go check her out. She's amazing. program is mind.

and body. like a holistic whole body approach been in the program for a year and a half it's just transformative in every way is all I can say. total healing yet see the light at the end of the tunnel now.

I do feel like we're so close. We have been able to a few times of pain-free so that's super exciting. finally see like, okay, my body's healing. It's slow, but it's healing. the journey in this program, I mean, the ways that God's used this to me

I tell anybody who I tell who I'm in the program, I'm always like, I wish that there was a program that was just like this, except maybe taking out the vaginismus specific stuff. But I think it's just so valuable ⁓ women, I mean, all humans, but women specifically to learn how to regulate our nervous systems to ⁓ just be able to be in tune with our bodies. I realized through the program that I was so...

out of sync with my own body. And I think because if, you know, once I was honest with myself, I realized how much I hated my body. I had a lot, a lot of anger and really hate towards my body. And so being able to get to a place of seeing my body as my body was trying to communicate with me, it's not against me. It was, you know, trying to do all it could to protect me and.

God made my body this way to do these things and do these things and all of that. it's just, yeah, a lot ⁓ and honestly say that could go back and change having vaginismus, I don't know that I would because just amazing

things that God's shown me through this. don't, you He probably could have shown me in another way, but it would have just been a different trial. the way that He's used this to show me and reveal Himself to me in ways that I've never experienced has just been really sweet. So that's kind of the nutshell of it all.

McKenzie Piland (39:37)
Yeah, well, thank you so much for sharing and for walking us through the things you've tried, just the whole process, know, things you tried, the things that you've learned, the things that it's taught you. feel like you you wrapped it all up really, really well. And like I said at the beginning of this, like I.

This was a, this was a brand new topic for me, something that I had read very briefly about in, I think I shared with you on our intro chat, the book, the great sex rescue, which is a really good book. If anyone just struggles with sex as a topic, even, even through, you know,

Sam Dukes (40:11)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

McKenzie Piland (40:14)
purity culture and just the art attitudes and the things that the church has taught us about sex. The tagline of the book is the lies you've been taught and how to recover what God intended. And ⁓ it's a really, really, really good book. But it's interesting that you said that that podcast is kind of what changed your...

Sam Dukes (40:24)
Yes.

McKenzie Piland (40:34)
view and has kind of opened the doors for your healing because after we talked, I looked up a podcast on this topic and that was the one that I listened to actually. And so I'm actually familiar with the episode that you're talking about and ⁓ it was really helpful to just hear her experience and hear you know what she had talked about and

Sam Dukes (40:43)
Yes!

Yay, I love that.

McKenzie Piland (40:58)
what your doctor had also told you, like this isn't just a physical thing, which I think so often that's what we, what we try to fix in almost anything. You know what I mean? This could go into a lot of different health problems, but we try to fix the physical and we don't tackle the mental or the spiritual piece of it. And so, this though is particularly interesting because it was a response.

Sam Dukes (41:06)
Yes.

Hmm.

Yes.

McKenzie Piland (41:23)
you know, to the way that you felt about your body, the things that you were taught as a child, trauma from from your birth of your, I think you said your son, and just all of these things. That piece, whenever you're sharing also makes me think of a book and it's not faith, faith based, but the body keeps score. ⁓ And how much

Sam Dukes (41:25)
home.

Yeah.

Yes, love that book.

McKenzie Piland (41:44)
our body really is trying to communicate so much to us for things that we need to deal with on a more mental and spiritual level. And so that's also a really awesome book for anyone who's kind of struggling with really anything. feel like it's just a really great book. ⁓ But I would love to dig into a little bit of like,

Sam Dukes (41:47)
Yes.

Yes.

yeah.

McKenzie Piland (42:08)
You you said that you believe that a lot of this came from your upbringing as a child and the things that you were taught, purity culture, that kind of thing. What, if you can think of any specific examples, are things that are taught that are maybe well intended but that have led to this?

Sam Dukes (42:28)
Yeah, of all, if my parents ever listen to this, are seriously phenomenal, amazing parents in every way and I adore them so much. But I think every parent has a bit of a blind spot in certain areas and this was a little bit of their blind spot. And they did better than their parents before them now I'm gonna try to do better than my parents in this specific area.

I would say kind of almost the absence about it. It's, you know, not even necessarily like specific things that they said to me. It was more like there was nothing said really. And the, you know, I didn't really get any information about my own body and how my body worked. changes that was going to happen.

anything like that and the few times that I did hear my parents speak on sex it was always negative because you know it was like in a movie or you know whatever it was and then there would be like a lecture on it or pretty much always in a like disgust type way and and at you know youth group

and purity is not a yeah yeah which like purity itself is not a bad thing obviously that scripture calls us to purity but just like it felt like it was on the girls specifically purity was like very highly focused on for girls it's my responsibility to make my brother in Christ to stumble

McKenzie Piland (43:42)
It's bad, it's bad, it's bad.

Sam Dukes (44:06)
And, you know, there's imagery's of like, I don't know if you ever experienced this, but I think the one that's coming to mind is like where they put a glass of water and then they like pour some dirty water into that glass to like show it being tainted or something like that. like, you know, the whole like your used goods or damaged goods or, you know, that type of phrasing around it. And, and I, I

Like I had said before in pre-marital counseling, had thought that I had kind of, even though I kind of knew my upbringing of that, I thought I had like, quote unquote, escaped it. And it just, I think it shows that these little teeny messages that are said over and over and over to you, it was so deep within me didn't even know that it was there and affecting me. And

You know, now that I'm a parent doing, of course I'm not getting it perfectly right, but I'm doing all I can to change that for my kids and give them healthy view the way God created intimacy and their bodies. ⁓ And that's been like healing for me in a lot of ways. It's almost like healing my child.

inner child able to say these things out loud even though I'm saying it to them, it almost is like I'm saying it to my child self too. And so been really special.

McKenzie Piland (45:40)
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that because it can be a multitude of different things. And I feel like, you you said your parents didn't really talk about it or every time when you did it was, oh, it's in a movie, got a puzzle, got it turned off. This is bad. You know, yada yada. I can imagine that scenario, right? And then, you know, it's it's the woman's job to.

Sam Dukes (45:48)
Of course, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (46:05)
to kind of be the gatekeeper and to not let your brother in Christ stumble. you know, what always gets me is like the, you know, we teach like sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. And then all of sudden you get married and it's supposed to be this wonderfully beautiful thing. And it's like, our brains don't work like that. You know what I mean? Like whenever we've learned something is bad, don't do it. You know, all of these things there are.

you know, those walls that have to come down and it's going to be a journey. And this this conversation has just been so interesting to me because, you know, just the way in which your body had put up a defense mechanism to this to this thing. And there's there's a lot that has to be broken down and a lot of lies that has to be corrected. And it's not as simple as just training your

Training your pelvic floor, it's not as simple as just like relax, drink some wine, just have more sex. It'll get more comfortable. Like there are things in your brain that are going on that really have to be dealt with. And then your body can come out of that fight or flight ⁓ and your nervous system can relax in a way.

Sam Dukes (46:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yes.

McKenzie Piland (47:15)
So I know that this has been really helpful and just educational for me to learn more about because, like I said, I had no idea. I want to go, you know, I know you're not your husband, but would love to kind of just flip it on the other side and just would love for you to share, you know, maybe some of the best ways that he supported you or.

you know, maybe advice to a husband who's listening to this, who has a wife that's struggling with this and just like, yeah, whatever's been helpful or, or anything from your perspective. Yeah.

Sam Dukes (47:49)
Yes.

Yeah,

I have a pretty amazing husband, so he's just, he's so great. I sing his praises all day. ⁓ he, you know, he also came into marriage with his own things, his own, you know, preconceived beliefs and notions. And did kind of seem like brought in and what he brought in was...

even though maybe on the surface it seemed like not a big deal, but it was like a perfect storm. it's also been learning experience for him what, know, the way God designed intimacy to be. we were kind of going through, we even started the program, you know, he also was kind of very, very confused and

He had his own side of just feeling incredibly hurt and rejected by me, even though he knew that I wasn't doing it on purpose or any of that. so incredibly rejected by me. so him kind of working through that own with God, kind of going on his, we're kind of like in our own little journeys together, but going together at the

And then when we started the program, the has its own husband's mini course. So amazing. And so he kind of got to learn all about vaginismus, all about what's going on in my brain and my body. And that just gave him so understanding for what I was going through. know, turn got to hear and what on for him.

McKenzie Piland (49:09)
awesome.

Sam Dukes (49:28)
And because I think it often feels like it's all the woman's It's like because it's in her body and it's like her quote unquote issue. And so I think it could be easy for husbands to kind of disassociate or like not be involved. And so this program was so great because they do really encourage the husbands to be super involved in every avenue and every way. And so.

Yeah, that was so helpful for him to learn my body. So I guess if you're a husband listening and you think even if your wife doesn't have vaginismus, I think every husband should should learn his wife's body and not just women's bodies in general, but specifically your wife's body because she's going to have her own cycle things. She's going to have her own quirks and things and and just like make it your mission to understand her and understand her cues and the way her body

does its thing. will go a huge, that'll go huge for you do that. yeah, so anyway, him just learning me and program really has a big focus on communication, something I think I mentioned earlier that I realized that I was terrible at. And so able to communicate and

speak so openly with each other, even if it's like, you know, not wanting to hurt the other person, but still speaking, speaking it out loud. And I think to a point where you can be completely honest with your wife and so great at that. And that. I needed that of him not holding anything back and him just like me bear it all, first of all. So

He is such a safe place where I never feel like he's gonna judge me or angry at me. I think in the beginning I didn't communicate because I was afraid of those things even though he had never shown me that. Like I was just kind of making it up in my head. making sure that you are a safe place for your wife. And that means like no matter what she says to you, if she's being fully honest that you just.

you can take it and you're not allowing any of your own like anger or your own you're feeling rejected or whatever it is but not taking that out on her in that moment allowing her to she needs to say and accepting it that has been so healing to me in this journey of it's absolutely needed.

think I would have been able to ever heal if I didn't feel like my husband was a safe place to land a safe place that I literally tell him anything be my safe spot. And I know that he, and that doesn't mean that he can't tell me things that he's feeling. It just means that he's not going to come at with anger or

yeah, I think the biggest thing is safety. thing with vaginismus specifically is that and our minds aren't feeling safe. And so a huge focus in the program is safety. And so getting to that place. another thing I think is prayer. he has made it his kind of personal goal. And often I didn't even know that this was going on.

McKenzie Piland (52:25)
Yeah.

Sam Dukes (52:49)
But he would just spend so much time in prayer and his own focus time with the Lord and making sure that he was doing that consistently so that he wasn't trying to find his fulfillment in me, but he was finding it in God first. So those are, I guess, just a few tidbits.

McKenzie Piland (53:13)
Yeah, yeah, those are really helpful. And, you know, I think what you said, one of the things I heard is like being able to be honest and not taking it personally, you know, because I think so often anytime we hear anything negative, we just want to take it personally. It's like, this is the truth. It's not about you. ⁓ And just like getting off that, like I'm being attacked pedestal, you know, and it's like

Sam Dukes (53:24)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (53:40)
okay, well this is also how I'm feeling and you know, just opening those lines of communication. I think that there's so much jam packed into that alone. Just being able to communicate and being able to communicate in a safe way and being able to communicate honestly. And you know, not internalizing it and you know, thinking about the other person like.

Sam Dukes (53:47)
yeah.

Yes.

McKenzie Piland (54:02)
What you're going through has nothing to do with me in the way of like You know, I'm not necessarily doing something wrong. This is just what's happening And trying not to you know, be selfish and just think about yourself and those are all things we want to do So yes, I appreciate those

Sam Dukes (54:05)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yep.

Yep.

McKenzie Piland (54:25)
And, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking I just saw this clip of a different podcast. It was, I think, Bryce Crawford's podcast, and he had Forrest Frank on and ⁓ Forrest Frank was talking about, you know, the night of his

Sam Dukes (54:34)
you

McKenzie Piland (54:38)
of his wedding, had had watched pornography before they got married, but he was a virgin and he essentially did something that made her uncomfortable in that moment. And she's like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? And he was like, he just said something that was really powerful. He was like, nobody else's like sex journey is going to be the same as yours. And sex is something that you have to learn with your spouse and not like

Sam Dukes (54:46)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (55:02)
from outside information. And so it really is this very deep, intimate, personal journey. And ⁓ it's not a one size fits all. And there is a lot of nuances to it. And every couple has their own journey. And I just thought that was really important for him to say, like, it doesn't work that way. ⁓ Even though we want to think that. ⁓

Sam Dukes (55:02)
Yes.

Hmm.

Yeah, no, that's so important.

Mm-hmm.

McKenzie Piland (55:26)
So before we wrap up, would love for you to just leave, could, you know, drop a resource or just words of advice, piece of encouragement to maybe a woman that's struggling with a similar thing. I know I asked for the husband, but would love to get the woman's perspective as well.

Sam Dukes (55:40)
Hmm.

that, okay, for me, one of my big kind of, taught me so many lessons in this, but one I think I realized that personality, could have a desire or maybe a better word would be like one of my sin tendencies would be to be lukewarm.

or to be passive to be apathetic. come pretty naturally to me.

has used this kind of season, this last decade in my life to really reveal that to me, that I was kind of in a lot of ways just life. back and I'm just really just overwhelmed with what an honor it is that I got to be refined.

Like the God of the universe to refine me and it tears me up every time I think about it because he could have let me float. Like he could have just left me to float could have, you know, been 80 back and then had so much regret that have this intimate relationship with him and I...

and I didn't spend every day in communion with him. so now I can see that he used this to refine me and I am so grateful. And I now understand that a life that is full of constant communication and communion with him is a life that's going to have trials. And I think I naively, you know, in the beginning when I was asking for healing or whatnot, like,

naively thought like, it'll just like, bam, it's gonna be there, you know? don't think I can think of one person, at least in scripture, who was a person after God's heart and followed him faithfully that didn't have trials in their life. And I just am realizing like, God uses these trials. I think if somebody listening is maybe going through their own trial.

way you can lean into it. mean you have to stop asking for healing or whatever it might be. It just means that you're seeking out what God might be showing you or revealing to you or trying to teach you in this season and then and then eagerly accepting it, eagerly seeking it. because

refinement is so wonderful and beautiful and that's what we want. We want to be more like Jesus in any way that we can. that would be the big one is just leaning into what he's teaching you. And one I think would be just like finding in any way you can, finding joy and hope in this trial. And I remember thinking, especially after the miscarriage, just feeling like I don't know how to do that.

just feeling so lost and so riddled with grief. And I just didn't know how to find that. But I think biggest ways to kind of counteract discouragement or desperation or is hope and is worship. I have vivid memories of bedroom and just

blasting worship music and sobbing and worshipping at the same time. And I don't, I hadn't experienced that before and experienced like that showed me, I can have joy in this, even in this moment where I feel like overwhelmed with grief has been such a beautiful lesson to me.

like I think you said in my bio, I'm like a recovering pessimist. so this is just a huge way that God's revealed himself to me and me. hand in hand, I think, with another thing that my personality is I like things to be really black and white. And God's really just blown that to smithereens. And he's just been like,

McKenzie Piland (59:50)
Yeah. ⁓

Sam Dukes (59:53)
Most of life is going to be the gray area. Most of life is full of nuances and that has been really uncomfortable for me. But then, me that I can have multiple emotions at the same time. I think before I was trying to, you know, in my grief, I was just like sitting in my grief and then just kind of staying there and kind of just being like, okay, and then now I have to like move on and then now I have to feel this next emotion.

He really just showed me, you can have many emotions happening at the exact same time and that's okay. That's how I made you. I made you to be a human. actually, there's so much freedom in that. It's really given me so much freedom to understand that I can feel sadness or whatever, but at the same time I can be in worship or I can have joy or I can have curiosity. And that has been such a beautiful lesson for me.

McKenzie Piland (1:00:52)
Yeah, absolutely. I tend to be the very same way in that I want things to be black and white. there is, God has really, really, really been showing me that too. So I can totally relate to that. That it is full of nuances and most of life is gray. So Sam, I would love for you to just leave the listeners with, I would love for you to kind of like plug the.

Sam Dukes (1:01:03)
Yes.

Yes.

McKenzie Piland (1:01:15)
the program that you're in one more time just so that we can capture it and then just where listeners can find you if they want to connect with you.

Sam Dukes (1:01:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so the program is Free Intimacy. actual program, so her website is Pain Free Intimacy and the actual program is called I think Mind Body Reset it's Jess Seitz who created it. she, like go look up her Instagram, up her website. She has so many free resources. So if even if you feel like you can't a program but you need help.

like go find her because you will, she even has I think a free email that she sends out weekly tips and stuff so yeah, highly recommend her, she's amazing and wonderful and she's a believer, I don't know if I said that but she's a believer so everything she does is scriptural and it's just so great. far as how to find me, I don't really do social media so I could do my email works.

McKenzie Piland (1:02:10)
Well that's not true, you found me on social media.

Sam Dukes (1:02:13)
just like, profiles are all private and I don't really ever, so.

McKenzie Piland (1:02:18)
Then hey, she doesn't exist guys. There's a ghost here.

I don't know, whatever you want. If you want to leave your email, great. If not, totally up to you.

Sam Dukes (1:02:25)
Okay. Okay. Do you want

me to say my email? Okay. So it's Marie, M-A-R-E-E, Dukes, D-U-K-E-S, at gmail.com. And yeah, I'm, sorry. I was just gonna say I'm open to anybody me or I guess emailing me. open book and I'm happy to chat with anyone. So yeah, reach out.

McKenzie Piland (1:02:39)
Cool. Well, nope.

Yeah.

Yeah, we appreciate that. And just thank you so much, Sam, for sharing this topic specifically. I know that I've learned a lot. I know that there is so much more probably to this topic than we could ever cover in one podcast. So for those of you guys listening who can relate to this at all, please connect with Sam and just thank you again for your heart and for your vulnerability and for sharing this hard topic. But

Sam Dukes (1:03:03)
yeah.

McKenzie Piland (1:03:15)
one that I know is going to be helpful because like you said, it's isolating, it's very lonely, you feel like you're alone and so hopefully this just opens that door for someone to be able to connect with you so that they don't feel so alone. So thank you so much. Okay.

Sam Dukes (1:03:21)
Mm-hmm, yes.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.