Episode 59 | Jonathan Bittner - THE BATTLE AFTER THE WAR

Jonathan Bittner, LAPC, MS, CTP is a US Army Combat Veteran of the war in Afghanistan. He holds a master’s degree in clinical and counseling psychology and is in the fourth year of the Doctor of Psychology program at Immaculata University. As an associate professional counselor in the state of Pennsylvania, his work focuses on providing care for adults and teens with trauma. Jonathan is also a co-founder of the Honor and Courage Foundation, an organization that supports veterans and first responders, and their families.

See Jonathan's links below:

Jonathan Bittner Therapy
https://www.jonathanbittnertherapy.com/

Honor and Courage Foundation
https://www.honorandcouragefoundation.org/

https://puppiesbehindbars.com/

https://vfw.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The prevalence of chronic pain among military veterans from the general population of veterans is about 30 percent. But that number goes to up over 50 percent among military veterans with high rates of PTSD, depression, chronic pain, andor substance use disorders. As you might suspect, this toxic brew of co-occurring conditions greatly increases the risk for veteran suicide that is already 57% higher than in the rest of the civilian population. The stories of too many of our veterans end poorly. But today, we have an inspirational exception: one veteran's story of trauma, chronic pain, substance abuse, and profound despair that through his own courage, perseverance, and a few well-timed encounters, brought him to a place he never thought possible. Our guest today, Jonathan Bittner, is a U.S. Army Combat veteran of the war in Afghanistan. He holds a master's degree in clinical and counseling psychology and is in the fourth year of the Doctor of Psychology program at Immaculata University. As an associate professional counselor in the state of Pennsylvania, his work focuses on providing care for adults and teens with trauma. Jonathan is also a co-founder of the Honor and Courage Foundation, an organization that supports veterans and first responders and their families. As always, I can be reached at Afton at AftonHasted.com. Hi Jonathan, welcome. We're so excited to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_05 1:26

I'm very excited to be here, so thank you so much for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yeah, so it's we're so excited to have you. I heard you speak at USASP, and I was so taken by your story. I'm like, this needs to go out far and wide. There are so many individuals who live with trauma, with chronic pain, and our veterans, it may impact even more so. So that's why it's like, oh, we've got to tell tell this story. So again, so happy to have you.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Thank you again.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

So we do things, we're gonna do things a little differently today, because typically what I'm um driving towards is helping our audience understand people who are kind of already researchers and leaders in the field, or because they can know them as humans, but that is where you are going. What is your true superpower is where you've been and what you've done with it. It's so powerful and so inspirational. So, what we want to do is kind of walk through the things in your life that took place, the people you encountered, the circumstances, and the courage that you displayed to brought you to where you are now. So what you're doing now is incredibly uh exciting and good and powerful. Um, but to give people a sense of what this took, let's walk them through your experience. So I I think going back to even your childhood days or who you were as a youngster group helps bring some insight. So give us kind of a backdrop of your early life. You know, who were you? What were your parents like? Um, what was life as a youngster?

SPEAKER_05 3:13

Yeah, so that's a very good question to start off with. And childhood, I I think for a lot of people really make up who they are now in a lot of ways. And I think that's especially true for myself. Uh, so my family is from Philadelphia. So I have uh three brothers and one sister. One of my brothers is a twin, and my parents are still married. Um, they're going on, I don't even know how many years they've been married now, but it's been quite some time. Uh so growing up, um, my family was my my siblings, my immediate family was fairly large. Um, but outside, like extended family was pretty small. My family as a whole was very tight-knit. My grandparents were very present in our lives. Um, so much that my grandmother would come up every week when I was younger and just really helped my mom around the house. My grandfather was such an inspiration in a lot of ways. Um, he had a doctorate in microbiology, um, really ran uh the health department in Philadelphia for a number of years, going, I think, back into the 70s and the 80s, and really contributed a lot to the field of microbiology, which is really cool. Yeah. Um, so it just again, just a very small, tight-knit family that which is really um impactful even to this day.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Yeah. So you had kind of a really strong base. Now, your was your dad a Marine? Do I remember that right?

SPEAKER_05 4:47

Yes, my dad was a Marine back into the late 60s, into the 70s. Um, around the same time my parents met, uh, they met on a blind date, which is really cool. And then the rest was history with that. Um, it was interesting because my dad went in uh during the Vietnam War. Uh two of his brothers served in Vietnam, had a lot of mental health issues. My one uncle, who has since passed away, um, struggled with alcoholism after Vietnam. Uh the PTA PTSD was really impactful in his life and his family's life. Unfortunately, I didn't really get to know him too well. Uh, but my parents, when they met, they ended up getting married. My dad was stationed out in California. And um, just I'll never forget the stories that my mom would say or tell us growing up about like all they had was a motorcycle, and they would drive through like the deserts out in California. Uh, so it was just a really an interesting time. You know, obviously I wasn't present for it, but it just it makes me imagine, you know, what it was like for them when they first met.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

It is always kind of fun to imagine our parents young and kind of carefree than we come along. And you, as you had mentioned, were kind of obsessed with the military. Yeah. Was that about?

SPEAKER_05 6:10

I'm really not sure to be honest with you, but as long as I can remember from my whole life, the one career that I always wanted was to go into the military. Originally it was the Marine Corps, and then it like uh switched over a little bit during high school to the army, and once the army recruiters were coming in. But like I just had this obsession. I don't know if part of it was knowing my dad was in the military and kind of wanting to follow his shoes. Um, but military service was really big in my family. Um, my great uncle had was in, I believe it was World War II or Korea. He was in the Army Air Corps at the time, had cousins that were in. Um, like I also mentioned, both my uncles were in, but I just remember even going to my grandparents' house, and they had these toy soldiers that I would just play with on the ground every single time that I was there with them. So watching war movies, uh just dressing up in my dad's old uniforms, playing war with the neighborhood kids. And that really, I think, set the stage to where I would end up in my life.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

And so you had this kind of idealized version of what it was to be in the military. And so that really kind of drove you and compelled you. And and so in high school, were you doing ROTC and all that kind of stuff? Or what were you like in high school?

SPEAKER_05 7:36

No, so I was, I would say probably below average, um, very below average in in my school. Yeah, it wasn't like school was never something I was passionate about at all. I always look at kind of a journey that I had when it came to school. I actually remember the first day of kindergarten and just thinking this is going to be a long, like 12 years of my life going to school. So I adjunct, I'm an adjunct professor now, and I actually just told my class or both of the classes I taught this semester. Um, one of the things that really stands out with me in high school was I actually graduated within the bottom 15% of my class, and I bombed the SATs. Um, so the SATs were something just because my twin brother was planning on going to college. And so just because we were twins, he went and took them, and so I felt like I needed to do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

To me, that is so compelling. So, first, A, that a kindergartner thing, oh my God, this is gonna be a really long slog, but also jumping ahead, and and people have heard this in a bio, you're in your fourth year of your doctoral program. So, you know, as we tell this story, I think it gives everyone hope that, you know, sometimes people are very smart and are ninth grade students, whatever kind of comes together. But life can change you and set you up for all different possibilities. So, coming out of high school, you decide you're gonna join the army. How did that go with your folks?

SPEAKER_05 9:15

Um, I can't say they were like very excited about it. Um, I had a little bit of struggle just getting into the military to begin with. I had a lot of ear infections when I was a child. And so I lost some of my hearing in my left ear. And so I need to get a medical waiver. But my parents weren't thrilled, but they were supportive at the same time. Um, one of the fondest memories that I have with my dad is the second time I went to MEPS, which is the military entrance processing station. I believe that's what it's called, where you get your physical done and all that. Um, I came home the one day and he had made this card for me, like a handmade one that he had created on the computer and and printed out. And it was sitting for me on the table when I got home. Um, so that's like I really appreciated that is still something that I have um in in my belongings, and it's something I'll probably have for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

It's a beautiful thing, right? Just to have, you know, maybe the parents are initially reluctant. So I'm sure, you know, he's Marine, UN Army. So there's that. But, you know, there is mixed feelings. My you know, my son is is Army National Guard, and and as proud as I am of him, there's always this little mix. Oh, is this the right choice? Is this safe? Will he be okay?

SPEAKER_05 10:41

Yeah, really hard, I think, for them. Um, one of the stories that my dad used to tell all the time is how his mother, my grandmother, since both his brothers went to Vietnam, um, my dad was um gonna be drafted. And so he wanted a choice, so he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And my grandmother had to sign the papers for him to enlist. I believe he enlisted when he was 17, if I remember correctly. And just one thing that I remember is just hearing the story about how my grandmother had a hard time signing her name for the rest of her life. Oh wow. And so there's a big psychological impact. And when I enlisted in 2005, the global war on terror was really kind of in the the hot spot. Yes. Things were really heating up in the Middle East, and I think that was another concern that my parents had.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Right. It felt very active. You know, it was it was not peacetime. So I can certainly see that. So right a passage, you go to boot camp. Um, you were Fort Jackson, right? Yes, I that's where Liam was. I I I know, I can feel it, I can smell it, I have a sense of it. Um, what was that experience like for you?

SPEAKER_05 12:00

It was rough. Um, you know, Fort Jackson has since has this nickname called Relaxing Jackson and it just because it was um, you know, there's kind of this allure about it where it's easier than everywhere else. And it wasn't really my experience, it was very difficult, I think. Um, just because the war was going on, yeah, they were trying to get as many people through training as they could. Um, so I just remember Fort Jackson just being overcrowded in 2006 when I went.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

So they had to really create new training battalions and just knowing that like we were actually training for war. Yeah. I think that's a difference where people who are in training during peacetime, maybe it's there's this expectation of maybe at some point the country will be at war, maybe we'll get deployed to a combat zone. But in 2006, the war is in the height of where it was. And so we all knew at some point that we were going to deploy to a combat zone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

And I can feel that you know, that certainty that this is not just preparedness. I'm going to need to do these things or know these things in a real world conflict. So that's got to be hard. So when you look back at this, do you look back fondly? Do you look back with trepidation, or how do you kind of view that experience?

SPEAKER_05 13:37

I actually have a very positive view about it. And so, like I had mentioned in high school, I really struggled. Part of it I didn't care. The other part I just felt so behind. Then the rest of my peers, but in the military, it kind of shifted to the opposite end of that spectrum to where I really excelled. Um, I really enjoyed the structure, I enjoyed the training that we had, even in the extremely hot South Carolina weather every day where I feel like the temperatures were like 110, maybe 115. Uh, just being around other people who were going through the same struggles that I did. Yeah. But some of my favorite memories that I have, um, so where my company area was, my the barracks and everything, there were other companies who we could see out our windows. Uh, so just some of the fondest memories that I had was just watching them on like graduation day or uh family day, which was the day before graduation, and watching their families there coming and uh spending time with them. And it was just waiting till the day that we graduated. And then the other another fond memory that I have is like we would kind of when other companies were getting what we call smoked or doing push-ups or punished, like we would peek out the window and and watch them. But we had to be careful because if we were seen watching them, then the drill sergeants would come over to our barracks and tell our drill sergeants, and then we would be punished for that. Um, but there's just a lot of corporate punishment that occurs, you know, one person messes up. Um, like another memory that I have is we were out in the field all day, and my platoon for my uh company was we were weren't doing so well behaviorally. Uh so we came back from some uh training exercises all day, come out, and all our bunks are out in on the sidewalk, and so we were kind of really in big trouble with that. So yeah. So outdoors and you know, it's just a lot of fun things or just being woken up every hour on the hour for formation, and then they would keep you for 20 minutes, and then you had to be out there 15 minutes before the next hour, and so you got about 15 minutes to lay down and then have to go right back out again.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

And am I hearing did you have to sleep outside? Is that what they were?

SPEAKER_05 16:11

We did have to sleep outside, and then um, if I remember correctly, I think part of it is people kept leaving their locks unsecured on the wall lockers, and that was another big thing, right? Paying attention to detail. Yes, it's really ingrained. If you don't lock your locker, you're gonna come back, your clothes or your belongings are gonna be thrown all over the place, your mattresses are gonna be thrown off the beds, and yeah, uh so it's just you never knew what to expect.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

They teach you very dramatic types of lessons, and but I think what comes out of it is this very strong sense of shared misery, of camaraderie, right? And you know, you there's there's a um a researcher, her name is Elizabeth Dunn, I believe, who writes about how you can have a pretty horrible or miserable experience with a bunch of folks. But years later, when you look back at it, there's almost this fondness fondness or just kind of like, you know, that was actually pretty funny when that happened, or you know, yeah. And that's how I view it.

SPEAKER_05 17:13

And yeah, you know, really looking back on it, paying attention to detail is one of the biggest things, you know, to survive in a war zone, right? Miss something, right, forget something, then the ultimate um consequence is somebody loses their life. Yeah, and so when you're looking at like psychology as a whole, yeah, right, something that just seems a little bit silly like that actually creates or can create this pattern in a nervous in your nervous system where am I missing something? Yeah, did I make a little bit of a mistake? It could just be something in school, it could be something at work, but then I feel the consequences as if I just got somebody killed. And so that's the other psychological side of this is you know, our nervous system just uh isn't able to tell the difference sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah, we'll we will talk about it kind of extensively because a big piece of what of your story and what you focus on now as a as a as a as a therapist is trauma and how the the nervous system does change based on the experiences we feed it. So kind of along the same lines then, things got real for you then. So you got deployed.

SPEAKER_05 18:32

Yeah. So I ended up getting deployed. Uh originally I had orders to go on a peacekeeping mission to the Sinai.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:41

So this was a deployment that I did not want to go on. Um, you know, going back to childhood, I always imagined what war was going to be like. I always wanted to go to war. And it's just amazing. I mean, I guess if you look historically, like the US is constantly in conflict. So the chances are pretty high that I would have ended up in a combat zone. But one of my good friends who was in my battalion, uh, we were both slotted to go to the Sinai, and then he ended up getting orders to Afghanistan. And the the funny thing that I look back on it now, and it's not something I would have said while I was still in, but we kind of went above our chain of command's head and asked for our orders to be switched. So we ended up switching deployments, he ended up going to the Sinai, he took my place, and then I took his place overseas.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Wow, that's really feels like a turning point, right? So you kind of did something that maybe isn't often done, but it changed your whole fate.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

So you talk about being in a combat zone as kind of like 99% boredom and 1% intense insanity. So to talk a little bit about what it was like for you when you first kind of got on base and what you try to do.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

It was interesting. So my role overseas was to protect the chaplain. So chaplains aren't allowed to carry weapons, it's again the Geneva Convention. Uh so they always pair them up with somebody who's there with them. Um, so war in general, right? It's I think in movies, people have this idea of you know, combat is happening every moment of the day. There's these big battles, there's, you know, people are dying left and right, which there is some of that, but not to the extent of I believe what people think war is like. So very mundane everyday life where, you know, being deployed, you work 12 to 15 hours a day, seven days a week. There's not time off to um, you know, you don't leave the base and go into the the town, or you're not, you know, going shopping outside of a base. So you're really confined to a small area, unless you're going out on patrols or on specific missions. Um, I had the privilege of um, because uh my battalion got split up into about 15 different smaller fobs, which are forward operating bases, and a few little outposts. Um, so the chaplain's job was to travel all over Afghanistan to visit our guys. And so we would travel for weeks at a time, where you know, flying all over the place or in convoys. It was fun to the extent of seeing the country, but it got old. Um, so it's just there is danger in itself. Um, there had been a couple helicopters that had been shot down um over the the years of the globe war on terror. Uh, IEDs were really big. But most of the time, right, nothing's necessarily going on. And so that's that 99% of the time. But then that one percent is when guys are killed or a firefight breaks out, and which could last for maybe a couple hours on the extreme end to just minutes. And so you go from this, I mean, everybody is really on a heightened state of awareness anyway, but this sort of boredom and this uncomfortableness that occurs to within a split second, something's happening, something that needs to get done or taken care of, or somebody unfortunately is killed. And so now the chaplain and I are in a split second packing bags, trying to catch the next helicopter to go meet with the soldiers who um were involved in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah. So it can, you know, it can turn quickly. And then did did you feel disappointed what your day-to-day life is? You know, as a kid, you'd pictured all of this action and her heroism and running around. Were you disappointed? Or what did you actually make of your true day-to-day experiences?

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Yeah, I wasn't disappointed at all. Yeah. Um, it I got to do a lot, I got to see a lot. Um, you know, there were their those times of excitement, um, some which is cool because I can read about them in history books or books that were are written now about the global war on terror. But really, it's like what I remember is just being so burnt out from just the tempo of deployment and the highs and the lows. Yeah. And there is no time to really take off and and just try to come back down from that. So really that's what I remembered.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

And you're, you know, you're kind of at this constant state of lack of normalcy, right? You're you really are in a very different world. So, but all was not um pleasant, right? You did lose some of your comrades, and and that was hard.

SPEAKER_05 24:12

And we we ended up losing a lot. Um, so a couple of my friends had were killed, um, and then one of them from suicide. Uh, so that was something that was hard to kind of process and go through. Uh, so we actually ended up losing quite a few soldiers during that deployment, not just from my immediate battalion, but guys that we were attached to.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:39

Um, so there was a lot of loss and and just trying to help people, a lot of guys that were wounded on that deployment. Um, so just having to also deal with that.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah. So, I mean, as civilians, we really have no sense of what you guys experience there, right? I mean, you know, things happen in our lives that are very stressful, or maybe you do see a terrible car accident, but not like what the human psyche is expected to endure in a war zone, right? So that 1% of time, the experiences that you guys have that are so uh so rare, and even though you're highly, highly trained, no one really can prepare you for some of the things that you see or experience yourself or the danger, you know, being in these very inhumane, inhospitable situations. So these are these situations can have an impact on you. Can you share with us an experience that we would think, oh my God, how do you process that?

SPEAKER_05 25:40

Yeah, so one of the instances that really stands out the most to me is when um one of my best friends uh specialist Eric Collin was killed. Um, so the the hard thing with this, and especially with my role, is here I I lost one of my best friends. Um, he wasn't on the same base that I was. And so within minutes of the notification that you know we had casualties, what happens is the command sends down a helicopter for us, for the chaplain and myself and maybe some of the command officers to, and quickly we have to pack our bags sometimes within 20 minutes and we hop on a plane or a helicopter, we fly, and sometimes it takes two days to get to wherever the base is. So we'll fly to like a larger base. If there's no flights going out, we'll have to spend you know the night there, um, not getting any sleep. So, you know, the tragic loss of a friend, and then I'm up 24, 48 hours traveling, um, trying to deal with the situation where the loss occurred, and then having to then deal with the grief and the anger that people are experiencing, and then having to then fly back and continue the mission. And so one of the hardest things where I think in civilian life, right, there's that luxury somebody passes away, you're able to take a couple days, you're able to grieve, but in a combat zone, you're not afforded that. And it's the any emotions that come up for you or any grief, it's you have to shove it down. And so, because the mission is kind of that priority. And so that is probably one of the hardest things. And then you add loss after loss after loss, and it's the same situation that occurs, and then so that grief just gets stuffed down and down and down because you don't really have time or you're not afforded the time to process that.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

That is so well stated and clarifying. Because when we think about how we want to treat people who undergo a traumatic event, what we want to do is often kind of blunt that autonomic nervous system and all that's kind of going on. And if you never have the chance to kind of downregulate and catch a breath and get some sleep and you know, let your body settle, you certainly you know are at greater risk for developing post-traumatic stress disorder because again, you're really stressing your central nervous system. So that sort of thing happens for you. And then, you know, you talk about the suicide of a friend of yours that while you were deployed, and and what that was like for you.

SPEAKER_05 28:30

That was extremely difficult. And so he was an individual I had gotten really close to on that deployment. He was on the small little fob that we were at. And I would say he took his life in August. I believe it was around the middle towards like the the end of August. I don't really remember the exact date. But one of the things that I've I held on to for a long time is he had pulled me aside um one day. He he was on a special detail walking some locals around who were like cleaning up trash or the bathrooms or or whatnot. And he just said, Hey, I'm I'm starting to struggle. You know, where can I who can I talk to and get like some medication for this? And we knew we were kind of leaving in a couple months. Um, they don't give us exact dates. And I was in the middle of something, I don't exactly remember what I was in the middle of, but I was kind of in a rush. And I I talked to him briefly and had just mentioned, like, hey, like everything's gonna be fine. We're headed home in a couple months. And again, this was in August. We ended up leaving in November, so just a short amount of time. And for me, it was like you're gonna be fine, you know, just kind of suck it up for the next couple months. And then I ended up going on. Uh, the chaplain and I went on another kind of world tour, as we called it. I think it was like a couple weeks that we were gone, yeah. Um, just hitting up one little base after the other after the other. And we actually flew back. Uh, we got back to our base. It was like very early in the morning. And I remember uh my my friend, uh, his name was Jonathan too. He um was unloading um some of the bags from the helicopter that came in, just really quiet, very silent, wasn't saying anything. I was like, I'll just deal with this like at another time. I'll say hi to him. I can't remember if it was like the next day or a couple days later is when he ended up taking his life.

unknown 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:40

So it's something that I held on to for so long. Where, you know, I blame myself for not doing more. I could have said something, you know, which I think is a very common occurrence for a lot of people where you know hindsight is 2020. Yes, all right, where I would have, and this is what I've come to understand, right? If I would have known what was gonna happen, I would have done more.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

There are 86 billion neurons in the human brain. Complex networks connect these remarkable cells so we can breathe, move, think, communicate, and feel pleasure, and pain. Changes in some of these brain networks are thought to underlie chronic pain, but these networks are not hardwired. Stress, sadness, fear, and loneliness can affect brain networks and make your pain worse. But healthy eating, sleep, and exercise can help your brain make new connections. And so can mindfulness, joy, friendship, and love. Because this is true, the power to create a new tomorrow with less pain and a more rewarding life already resides within you.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Dr. Hassett's book, Chronic Pain Reset, can be found on Amazon and independent bookstores everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

And I don't think it was too long after that experience you started experiencing chronic pain and some mental health issues. And can you talk a little bit about that when that first kind of cropped up for you?

SPEAKER_05 32:44

Yeah, so a lot of the pain and the mental health issues had started a little bit previously, maybe a couple months before that, um, after the loss of my best friend Derek. Okay. Um, so a lot of the mental health stuff, like I I wasn't sleeping that well. Um, again, my schedule, you know, I was just really burnt out to where there was oftentimes I I felt like it was pretty frequent that I would be up like 48 hours at a time or more, uh, just because of the mission tempo. And then that got into um how I was recovering or not recovering from the stress. Like I just feel like I carried stress for so long. Uh, the chronic pain started probably shortly after deployment. Um, you know, we're we're carrying like heavy gear and equipment, riding in vehicles that you know aren't comfortable. Yeah. Um, in you know, I don't even remember how much like body armor weighs, but just the constant like combat loads of all the ammunition, your weapons, your whatever you have in your pack, plus the body armor, helmets, it really wears down on your body. Yeah, and so that's also where the pain started with that, to where it was like chronic pain, or it wasn't chronic at that time, but the pain had started, and then the mental health kind of intertwined with that.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Yeah. So all this is kind of going on for you, and this is so common. I can't tell you how frequently we hear this. I mean, chronic pain is present in like 40% of veterans. I mean, it's really a very high number, and it can be anything from you know, this load that they're carrying to an injury while, you know, while they're deployed, to just not sleeping and not and doing things differently and being incredibly stressed. So you got this kind of going on, and then you come home. What was that like?

SPEAKER_05 34:44

Literally come home. And so at that time I was transitioning back off of active duty into the National Guard, you know, a part-time soldier. Yeah. So at the time, um, after deployment, we got back to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and there's all these briefings, right, about you know, about suicide, where to get help. You know, there's some medical stuff that people go through. Um, but really that fear and what a lot of the guys who had been in combat before and had been through this process kind of put into a lot of our heads that hey, if you say something's wrong, yeah, right, then they're gonna keep you here a lot longer and you're not gonna be able to go home.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

And so so it was just one of those aspects where, you know, I have all these issues, but it's just like I'm not going to say anything because my goal is just to go home and just get out of the situation that I'm in.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:47

Um, so I didn't say anything for uh during that end. And and with a lot of the briefings, it's they're we call them death by PowerPoint, just hours of PowerPoint presentations, and you just kind of check out and just kind of looking forward to getting out. So that transition, right? You go from, you know, it wasn't directly from literally one day in the combat zone to the next year stateside. So we transitioned through a country called Kyrgyzstan, one of the old Soviet satellite countries. And so we were there for maybe three days um before then we headed back to Fort Bragg. And I think we're there for about a week, and then um after that week was done, I was home. Um, so going from within like two or three weeks to a combat zone, you know, the hostilities after being at this high tempo for you know nine, 10 months to now um a civilian, yeah, and then trying to transition into the civilian world again.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Yeah, and the structure, I think that's what I hear is so different. You know, your life is structured, you know what you're doing, someone tells you what to do. Yeah, it's very clear. Then you go home, it's like, oh what now?

SPEAKER_05 37:07

Yes, it's very difficult. And you know, imagine it's like you also go through these experiences with a group of guys, at least in my experience. It was a combat arms unit, so there wasn't any uh females, yeah. And so going from that environment where it's like you live with these guys for months and months, and you go through a lot of the trauma together to now I'm back into the civilian world trying to make sense of what the civilian world is, yeah, and then trying to get into this flow of being able to do and go wherever I wanted, and then trying to catch up with relationships of people I hadn't seen for about a like over a year.

unknown 37:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

And the world kind of moved on too while you were away, right? So you had this very different experience. And then I don't think people talk about this either enough, the separation from these people that you were very bonded to. Everybody kind of goes to their own towns and states, and and so were you able to take up with your old friends when you go back? Did you stay in contact with your army buddies?

SPEAKER_05 38:13

Or I try to stay in touch with my army buddies. Um, so when I transitioned in the National Guard, I went back to a unit that I had come from. Um, even that, there was a lot of new younger soldiers who came in who had just gotten out of their boot camp and AITs, like the job schools. And so it was just it was just a really weird situation.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:37

And then one of the expectations that I had that when I came back that things were gonna be the same.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:44

Right. I felt like, well, nothing changed, right? I'm still I thought I was still the same person. Yeah, you know, what all could change in a year, but I quickly learned that that wasn't the case.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

So so when you talk about things that change, what's what did what kind of changed back home that made it difficult?

SPEAKER_05 39:03

Yeah, so a lot of people's life situations had kind of gone on. Um, coming back from the town I grew up in, maybe a couple different buildings that came up.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:14

Um, but really the mental health struggles, yeah. Um just not feeling like I belonged with the people that I knew for most of my life.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Yeah, it just felt different, right? And so what you're describing is kind of one piece of what a lot of veterans, you know, talk about in this adjustment period. And so you were having a hard time. So did you still have chronic pain at this point as well?

SPEAKER_05 39:36

I did. Um, so it was something I was uh shortly after, um, maybe within a couple months of returning home. Yeah, uh, my chain of command at my unit kind of noticed that there were some things going on with me that just wasn't right. They had known me uh pre-deployment, yeah, and then saw me after. Yeah. Um, so they really pushed me to go to the VA.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

So I I had gotten some pain medication from the VA to help with the chronic pain, but also to focus on mental health.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Right, right. Um so it sounds like you had a pretty, I mean, being kind of the second to the chaplain, kind of that that's a position of honor too. So I mean, you you also are kind of stepping away from an important position. So there's many kind of things that have changed in your life, and you were having a hard time. What did you what what was going kind of going on for you? What were you doing to kind of get by day to day?

SPEAKER_05 40:31

Well, I had to figure out what I was gonna do with my life. Yeah. Um, you know, in the guard, you meet, you know, two days a month, two weeks in the summer. I hadn't planned out what I had wanted to do um with my life. And I think that's kind of the hardest part is like I didn't think that far ahead. Yeah. Um, so I was trying to jump on other deployments overseas just to kind of go back to that environment again where I just felt like where I fit in. Yeah. Um, so that's where, you know, really part of the struggle was like, what am I gonna do with my life?

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

Now that I'm back, you know, in this really part-time role. Yeah. And so that's it's like I ended up moving out of my my parents' house, um, where I had stayed for a couple months and then attempted to go to school.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah. And in all of this, while you likely had some trauma.

SPEAKER_05 41:28

Yeah, a lot of it. Um, so it was something I think I was running from, where I think part of me was conscious enough to know, like I didn't want my family to know that I was experiencing the trauma. Like, I never talked about my war experiences or deployment life with my family, but I knew that it was affecting me in a way to where, you know, I didn't want them to kind of see what was going on. And unfortunately, they did um at some point, and it was like probably shortly after on the 4th of July, at my brother's house. And they have a, you know, the township puts on a big firework display. And um, really the first time I had like a huge, full-blown panic attack was when the fireworks started going off. Um, which for me it wasn't something I expected. It was very unexpected, yeah. You know, for me to have a reaction like that. Um, so it was really embarrassing.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Oh, oh my goodness. But really, it was one of the most early manifestations of how much trauma you have. Because you talked about you're exposed to a lot of things, and yet you just didn't have time, you just suppressed it all, but it still was waiting for you.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Yeah. So, how did you cope with that?

SPEAKER_05 42:51

Um, I use substances. So, substances were a way for me to really cope. Um, at the time, I had really gotten into the VFW, which is a great organization. Um, they do a lot for veterans, probably one of the better veterans organizations out there that are national. Yeah, but I picked up how to drink. Um, so drinking was a way for me to really cope with that. Um, I had started smoking something called spice. Um, it's they marketed it as like a herbal incense that they would sell at gas stations, but it was really a synthetic marijuana. Um, one of the things with spice is didn't show up on drug tests. So people in the military, it was kind of really big for a while. Um, just because they couldn't test for those certain chemicals in people's urinalysis. Um, so that ended up taking a really bad turn. Yeah. Um, so I'd been using that for a little while. And then they say smoking spice is similar to playing Russian roulette. I was wondering what you're gonna get in the bags. Yeah. Because once the federal government would catch on, they would change the chemicals a little bit to kind of keep it on the other side of legality.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

And then so I ended up overdosing in 2010 on SPICE.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Wow. And so what happened?

SPEAKER_05 44:21

Uh so when I smoked it, things got really, really bad. Um, it almost was like a seizure. Like I could not control what my body was going through. I had some really weird movements that were occurring, um, throwing up blood. So I ended up having to go to the hospital, um, to the emergency room. And then it was like, wow, why am I doing this? And so I ended up coming clean to my therapist who I was seeing at a VAT center. And he did one of the best things for me. And it's a lesson that I learned way back then on how to refer out to if people need a higher level of care. Yeah. So understanding he was able to understand what is in the scope of his practice and what is safe, yeah, and referred me to an inpatient program at the VA.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:18

And so I forever am grateful for him. Instead of just like, I'm gonna try to do this all myself, I'm gonna try to, you know, work with him because who knows what could have happened if I if he would have kept me on and I would have seen him on an outpatient basis.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

He did such a smart thing too for you. At the time, did you were you okay with that?

SPEAKER_05 45:42

I was a little mad. Um, because I remember probably pretty close to what he said, and he was like, There's not much else I can do for you. Yeah. Um, so here is a program at the VA. We're gonna get you in that program. It was a residential PTSD program. Yeah. Um, and I was like, All right, you know, let's I'll listen to you and let's do it. I could have easily said no, walked away, and just never went back to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

I imagine though you were pretty done by then, right? That must have been a very scary experience for you. And and you had kept it so close for so long that you were hurting so much and had so much trauma. And it must have been a relief to have somebody see it. And I think that's what you're probably trying to do today, right? For the people that you treat to see them.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Yeah, it was just one thing that, you know, again, I'm grateful for at this time. I had so hard to go to community college and you know, not feeling like I fit in with anybody there, right? Not feeling like I had accomplished anything in my life unless I had this piece of paper that had a degree on it. Um, so that was also something I was going through at that time, too. But I somehow I just knew that I wouldn't be able to do both at the same time, focus on myself and then all that.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

And you did that. And so how long did it take you to kind of work through the trauma and the pain of substance use issues? What kind of process was that? It was a very long process. Um, even in fiction a week.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

No, as like uh, you know, I think people have this perception, even like clients that I have that come in that I see now. Yeah, from time to time there's this expectation. I don't know if it's just because of TikTok or um whatever else people are getting information from, but they just kind of expect that the treatment's gonna be very quick. Yeah. Which I think for some people, right? You're able to work through things in a couple of months and you're able to be stabilized and go about your day. And um, but some people it takes a while. And it took me many, many years of in and out of inpatient treatment, uh, a couple stints on an acute psych unit. And so, but eventually it it worked out.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah, I and that I mean that is brilliant. It's such an important piece to share, too, that none of this is easy. You know, it took you a long time to get all of this trauma, and granted, it takes maybe even longer to get past it. And you know what? You are doing the best you knew how to do to cope with what you're experiencing. So using substances, well, that blunted that that worked for a while, but when it stops working, you know, it takes even longer to work it out through in the in the right in the right way. So uh there's a woman named Heather that somehow came into your life that was really pivotal for you. Can you tell us about her?

SPEAKER_05 48:47

Yeah, so there was uh a situation that occurred in 2014, I believe it was December 15th of 2014. At this time, Raya talked about you know the inpatient stints. By this time, I my stays at the residential inpatient program had become a lot less frequent. Yeah. Um, I had a huge benzo addiction too at the time, um, where this was something that was prescribed for me for panic. Yeah. Um works very, very well, but sometimes a little bit too well. And you know, it's like I love to abuse benzos. Yeah um and so at this time, like things were going fairly well. And one of my really good friends who I had met in inpatient treatment uh years prior, he was there my first stay in 2010. He was Iraq bet, um, lived not too far from me, but ended up going on a shooting spree. Um, ended up uh taking out a couple people, and then uh ended up ultimately taking his own life a couple of days after that. There was a in Pennsylvania and the counties here, there was like a big manhunt for him. Um, but I ended up getting picked up by the county detectives that morning. Um, somebody was alive in one of the houses and they didn't know who it was. I didn't find out this piece until many, many years later. But somebody was alive and they're gonna kind of use me to as like a bargaining chip or whatever to try to talk to him to come out.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:22

And then um the interesting thing is so the county detectives have pulled me um into they picked me up from my apartment, brought me to the scene, put me in a SWAT vehicle, and that same therapist that I had had at the vet center was sitting in there already. What um it was kind of this really a mind, yeah, wild mind like trip or whatever, right? So then the detectives dropped me off at home within a couple hours, and then the local police got me that night um just because a manhunt was going on, and I think they're gonna use me again. Yeah if they did find him. They did find him. So they did find him like two days later. Yeah, um, but one of the police officers, um, his name's Dan, awesome, awesome guy. He was one of the ones who picked me up. He had actually spent he was off duty earlier that day and spent time with me. I had never met him a day in my life. Yeah, and he spent that day with me, and at night he was working, so he came over in his patrol car, picked me up. And um, I was laying on the floor with my service dog at the time, Annie. And he um came up to me and just said, like, here is a number to a woman. She runs this crisis hotline, she already knows what's going on, and just text her. Yeah, and so I texted this woman that I've never met before, never even heard of her.

SPEAKER_04 51:53

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 51:54

And she was working for an organization called Operation Ward 57. And I texted her, she responded. We chatted back and forth through texts that night until I got dropped off at home in the morning. And but we've stayed in touch ever since.

SPEAKER_03 52:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:14

Um, she really walked with me through that. I ended up an inpatient um again for my last time, probably about a month after that situation occurred.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

Yeah. I mean, that was, I'm sure, an incredibly traumatic situation for you. And you know, we we can't, we can spend probably spend a whole show about what that day was like for you, trying to track down your friend, talking to this officer who made this incredible difference in the world, and then the coming together with this woman who became quite an inspiration to you to um think about how to put all of this difficulty into some powerful good. And so I don't think it was too long after that that you went back to school again. Is that right? Or it was actually I had given up on school at that point.

SPEAKER_05 53:04

Um, so I had a service dog, yes, um, and she was kind of really helping me get out into the world again. I had gotten into the nonprofit world for a bit, and um, I was an executive director for a nonprofit um that provided transitional housing for veterans, and then so I did that for about a year. I was on their board of directors too initially before I stepped down to take on this other role, work or running a transition house, and the money wasn't really there. Yeah, um, so this is probably about 2015, 2016. I started looking for other nonprofit jobs as like directors' positions. And one theme that I noticed is you need at least a master's degree um to do what I was doing. And it's like, well, I don't have a degree, so I have to figure out what I want to do. And so that's when I started looking to go back to school. And I had dropped out of college five times previously to that. I changed my major from nursing, yeah, and I learned I had to take all the science classes, so I wasn't about to do that, and then the psych. Then I had found out that I had needed a at least a master's degree to do anything in that field. So I threw that one out really quick. Then I went to music production, kind of lost interest because the program was going to be too long.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:30

And then uh finally it was like human services with uh drug and alcohol counseling, threw that out just because of some the trauma stuff that was coming up.

SPEAKER_03 54:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:41

So here I am, right, in the nonprofit world. And I was like, well, I guess I need to go back to school.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

And the psychologist that I worked with in inpatient treatment was such an inspiration.

unknown 54:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:54

And I wanted to be like her and I wanted to do her job. And so it's like, okay, I'm just gonna go back. Um, again, at this point, I was like, I haven't accomplished anything in my life. That's the the negative that I had about myself. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna go to school. At least I can just get an associate's or a bachelor's degree so that way I can have something on my wall. Yeah, and then I fell in love with it. So in 2017, is I um went back to school and stuck it out.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Isn't that funny? House for so many people that switched as kind of turns. I was like, wait a second, yeah. I kind of love this.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Yeah, I really did. I I really fell in love with the field. Um, you know, I had met my wife very shortly before I started school. Her name's Lauren. Yeah and she is a therapist, mental health therapist. She had been working in the field for many years. I remember when we first met, I was sending her like texts of here's another program I'm looking at.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:58

Um and so it was just really cool that to to meet her and to fall in love with her. And then, you know, ultimately it's we are working in the same field together.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

That is so great. So um, and then you uh worked for the found or you created a foundation, right? You established a foundation. Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_05 56:16

Yeah, so I I ended up working with Heather um on the uh at the time it's called the Honor and Courage program, which was under Operation During Warrior. I mean Operation Um Ward 57. I had been involved shortly for another organization called Operation During Warrior that helped with like a lot of amputees and things like that. So like volunteering was something I became very passionate about. And then so with Heather, she was running a crisis hotline, and so I started to help out with that, um, where veterans, first responders, and their families could call in. And then so I volunteered for a number of years with that, and then the parent organization, Operation Ward 57, closed down. And so Heather and I got together and co-founded with each other the Honor and Courage Foundation. Um, so we she runs the crisis hotline. Yeah, and then we do other programs. We provide uh grants for something called the Stellate Ganglion block, which is like a very uh amazing and breakthrough PTSD treatment. Yeah. And then we also have uh another program that we started probably about a year ago called the CAPS program. So it's like a clinician assistant program where we're paying up the successions of therapy for veterans' first responders. And so it's a lot of really cool things, and it's been amazing looking at the journey of me just laying on the floor of a police station with my dog and texting her to where we're at now, helping hundreds of veterans every year. And that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

And in and and telling your story, thank you for doing that. And and so people who work with veterans or veterans that are hearing this and who are struggling, what do you would you say to them?

SPEAKER_05 58:10

So, one of the things, and this is kind of like a passion of mine, right? It's number one, stay here. Yeah, right. It's simple phrase, stay here.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Stay here.

unknown 58:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

And the other thing too is right, as long as you're waking up every day and you have oxygen in your lungs, there's still hope that tomorrow can be better.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:27

Um, you know, I know what it's like to feel helpless and hopeless, right? But as long as you're still breathing, there's still things that you can do, or there's still an opportunity for things to change.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Yes, and and to reach out, right? To reach out for help. So our time went really fast, but I want to to touch on some of the resources. So we will definitely link your um your foundation and in the show notes. Are there other resources that you would want to refer veterans to people who care for them too? And again, we can link those two.

SPEAKER_05 58:58

Yeah, so there's a lot of organizations out there that are helping. Yeah, um, get involved in in the VFW, right? Get involved in organizations like that. And I think there's this big misconception that like VFWs are just these places where you go smoke and drink and old bets. Yeah, right. That's changing. Right. That is something that is really changing and has been changing for a number of years. And not every, not every post, the VFW post may be welcoming, but majority are. Yeah, and you're gonna find people who are on the same mental health journey as yourself. Um, you know, just find people who you can relate to who have shared experiences. Um, I can't overstress the importance of that. And also go to therapy. Therapy is so important.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Yeah, be willing to ask for help. And I know that is one of the hardest steps because you're almost trained not to say anything, right? As you as you're as you're getting out of it, you know, coming back from your deployment. It's like just get through the PowerPoints, don't say anything. And then, you know, of course, that slows down all the treatment opportunities. So, yes, please say something. So, well, yeah, I'll let you um send some things, some links to me, and we'll add those to the show notes so people can have those. And we we we we touched on these important women in your life, certainly Lauren, your wife, and what a you know, gods and she's been and a great partner. But you mentioned Annie a couple of times, and I I I know she played such an important role in your life. So, can you talk a little bit about your service dog?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:32

Yeah, so her name was Annie. Um, unfortunately, she passed away a couple weeks ago. Yeah. So I I had gotten her from an organization called Puppies Behind Bars. Uh-huh. They're located in New York State. Um, at that time, they were just training and raising service dogs for veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan with PTSD and traumatic brain injuries. And so the dogs were raised and trained in prison by inmates. And the really the cool thing, too, is now, or when you go up and you if you get selected for the program, you spend two weeks inside the prison, like during working hours, working with the inmates at train the dogs and raise the dogs. Yeah. And then they um, you know, you go home and now you have a service dog. And so she she worked with me as a service dog for about five years, maybe a little bit less than that. And I just didn't didn't need her in that capacity anymore. And the organization was amazing, and just let me keep her as a pet. And so she would actually go to work with my wife, who's a therapist every day. And um, you know, since she passed a couple of weeks ago, a lot of like my wife's clients have just expressed how amazing Annie has been for them when she was there. Um, just hearing about how people were so afraid or anxious to go into therapy, but just being met by, you know, a dog really kind of changed the aspect. And she changed a whole lot of people's lives. I know some people may be like, oh, it's just a dog. Yeah. Right. But it's like she had so much impact on my life. Um, she taught me how to live again, how to love again, how to receive love. Um, very much unconditional love. Um, so it it's it's hard that she's not around anymore. Um, you know, I miss her a lot, but you know, I think she she did a great job at her job.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing a bit about her. I know the loss has been hard, but what a what a wonderful life she led, and how many people did she touch, right? It's beautiful. So as we wind down, I always ask my guests, was there a question I didn't ask that you were hoping that I might ask you?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:52

No, I think you did a great job coming up with all the questions. And you know, this is definitely a story that I could share at very long periods of time. Yeah. Um, but it's I think we really covered the basis for everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Oh, great. Well, I am so excited that you're doing what you're doing and that you're you're in your fourth year of graduate school. Whoa, can you believe that? So I'm so excited. I want to I want to follow your career and I want to hear about this. And I'm hoping someday you'll write a book. I think there's so much more that you have to share, and so many people that you can help with this story. So, you know, I I think there's that sense of camaraderie about being a soldier or a person in the military and a veteran, and that hearing it from, you know, from a brother is very powerful. So thank you for that. So as we close our time, I have to ask you one more question. What brings you joy?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

Um, just being able to help other people. Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing. You know, part of the what I get to do with in my doctoral program is um working at the VA two days a week at the same hospital that I was in inpatient pro in the inpatient program for many, many years. And to get to work with a lot of the guys that are going through that program now.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:18

So that's something that I I really hold on to dearly. And so it just it's just a really a cool full circle moment in my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

Well, Jonathan, thank you for your service on many, many levels, not just what you did abroad and in the military, but what you're doing now to help veterans and others who struggle with trauma, substance use, and chronic pain. So you're a peach. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Thank you. If the Chronic Pain Reset Podcast series has brought you some inspiration and hope, please consider joining the community of listeners who have helped fund our production. Your support is important for us to keep creating content for those impacted by chronic pain. Look for the Support the Show link in our show notes in each episode. Today's episode was produced and edited by William Hasser, made possible by listeners like you, Son of a Books, and the team at Venue by 4M. Our music score, Just Be was produced by Bohemian Roosters. That's it for today. Join us in two weeks for another episode of Chronic Pain Reset.