Dr. Santiago Ramon y Cajal: The Artistic Neuroscientist

From wild child to a Nobel laureate! Aarati tells the story of the artistic scientist whose beautifully intricate drawings unraveled the secrets of the brain.

Transcript

Arpita 0:11

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shape the world. How are you, Aarati?

Aarati 0:20

Um, I'm doing okay. I am a bit sad. This is our last episode together, so it's a bit,

Arpita 0:25

I know.

Aarati 0:26

Bittersweet been kind of dreading this day, like I have to say goodbye.

Arpita 0:32

Totally. I know. It is a very mixed bag of feelings for me too. I was just walking home from work and was thinking about that and I just mentioned to Logan, he's like, how do you feel? And I was like, sad, but also like, I know it was the right decision, but also definitely sad. It's like there's a part of me that's just like so happy that I. We did this and it exists in the world and

Aarati 0:56

mm-hmm.

Arpita 0:56

I'm so like proud of that. But yeah, it's a mixed bag. I'm very sad to not be able to see you every, you know, every other week and chat with you and talk about the podcast. It's gonna be strange for sure.

Aarati 1:06

Yeah. It's a very surreal kind of feeling, like, I can't believe it's over. Like, this is not over. Like I'm gonna continue the podcast, obviously, but it's like the end of a chapter, beginning of a new, new era. So it's, it's kind of a weird feeling for sure.

Arpita 1:23

Yeah. I also was looking back at our emails and we have been working on the podcast for exactly a year and a half because we started talking about this. A few months before we actually started recording and our planning and coming up with the name and what our theme was gonna be and all of that. So yeah, it's been 18 months of work and a lot of episodes put out and so many different topics covered and I feel like we've evolved so much too, like, you know, posting on different platforms and you've done the whole YouTube thing, so it's like there's been so much growth and progress too that I'm super proud of.

Aarati 2:00

Yeah. And this is episode 30 too, so it's

Arpita 2:03

Love that

Aarati 2:04

It's like very nice round number.

Arpita 2:06

Nice number to end on.

Aarati 2:08

Yeah.

Arpita 2:08

Yeah. That's a lot of episodes. Like it's

Aarati 2:10

30 episodes is a lot.

Arpita 2:10

30 episodes is a lot of episodes.

Aarati 2:12

Yeah.

Arpita 2:13

Um, yeah, what I was wondering, I was wondering as like a. I don't know, like as a final episode, do you have a favorite that you've done or either one of us? Do you have a favorite episode?

Aarati 2:24

Oh, that is a good question. I really liked your episode on Ettore Majorana.

Arpita 2:30

Oh yeah. How he went missing? The true crime one. Yes.

Aarati 2:34

That was fascinating.

Arpita 2:36

That one was crazy.

Aarati 2:37

I'm... that one still keeps me up sometimes. I'm like, what happened to him? Where did he go? Did he really go to Argentina? Like, I don't know. That's so bizarre.

Arpita 2:46

Yeah, yeah. Like kind of faked his own death, but like also like didn't fake his own... I don't know. That one was so weird.

Aarati 2:51

Yeah, that was so weird that he, he kind just like up and left and was like, I'm out. Peace. You know? Yeah. Um, yeah, that was a really good one. And it's one of our most popular ones too, on YouTube. So...

Arpita 3:03

is it really? Oh, that's awesome.

Aarati 3:04

Yeah. Yeah. Like it, especially recently, I think maybe because of like the International Year of Quantum Mechanics or something. It, like, it recently got a huge spike spike on YouTube.

Arpita 3:15

That's a... that's amazing. I that's a really good one. Yeah. I think mine are tied. I love the Hoffman episode with his bike ride and how he's just like riding through the streets and he's just like high out of his mind and has no idea what's happening to him.

Aarati 3:31

Yeah.

Arpita 3:31

Like I think about that often and I'm just like, that is just so comical and like, I'm glad nothing bad happened to him, but also like that is just so funny that this man was just like super high and didn't know.

Aarati 3:40

Yeah.

Arpita 3:41

Um, and I think the other one that I really like is the Jack Parsons episode because it is so crazy. Like that episode is so crazy and that one is more recent, but I just found that one so parallel to just like a lot of. The shit show of current events too, even though that happened several years ago. It's just like history does repeat itself, I think.

Aarati 4:05

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of sad. I was thinking about that too with like the Dmitri Belyaev episode and how he was like,

Arpita 4:12

oh yeah.

Aarati 4:12

Fighting against the government. I was like, things have not moved far. It's very like, you know, the government just kind of sayings, we're not gonna fund this research anymore. And you know, and I'm just like, and he did it anyway and just fought the system quietly.

Arpita 4:29

Yeah.

Aarati 4:29

So...

Arpita 4:30

Yeah, it's true. I know that was, I was thinking about too ones, those are, those are really, those are good ones that I, I, I think so too. But yeah, happy to be here and I know you're gonna do an amazing job with Maria and I can't wait to listen. I can't wait to be a fan.

Aarati 4:45

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for having her be on the podcast and learn new perspective and just like, just her kind of expertise that she'll also bring

Arpita 4:56

Definitely.

Aarati 4:56

To the podcast. So, yeah. Um, yeah, I, I think it's gonna be good.

Arpita 5:01

I think that'll be like such a fun project for you guys to do together. And I think like your chemistry and relationship I'm sure will just like, show through the podcast and the way you

Aarati 5:09

I hope so.

Arpita 5:09

Do the story story.

Aarati 5:09

I hope we're not too weird,

Arpita 5:11

but I think that's kind of nice. I kind of like it. I feel like when people are truly themselves, it's, that'll really show through and she'll just bring a more. Like diversity of, um, like scientific background, which will be really, really fun. I feel like you and I share a lot of similar similarities in the types of topics that we're interested in, which is great'cause I think it gives us a lot of stuff to talk about. But I think it'll be really nice to have expertise in like a different domain and the types of stories she gravitates towards. So I'm super excited to listen.

Aarati 5:40

I am a little afraid that if I like do another kind of physics or engineering one, she's gonna know more about it than I do. Even after I research it, she's gonna be like, I know all about this. Like, great.

Arpita 5:51

You're gonna have your brother Arun in one ear, then you're gonna have Maria in the other ear, and then you're gonna be like, this is, I can never do like the year of quantum research again.

Aarati 5:59

Yes. Ever. Like they know more about it than I do. I should just leave it to the professionals.

Arpita 6:05

They're gonna be like, stick to the worms, Aarati.

Aarati 6:07

Yeah. For real, for real. But yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be interesting for sure. But she. She knows so much about everything that I feel like no topic is safe. So we'll see how that goes.

Arpita 6:19

We'll see. We'll see.

Aarati 6:20

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Arpita 6:23

Oh, love it. Well, um, I was gonna ask you who are we talking about today, but I actually do know who we're talking about today because you did spill the beans, so I very excited to hear this neuroscience episode. Cannot Wait.

Aarati 6:35

Yes. Yeah. So I think it was so funny because last episode you were talking about like the episodes that stuck out in your mind that you had done and how you were like, I need to be better than those episodes.

Arpita 6:51

I forgot that I said that.

Aarati 6:53

Yeah, like the, the episodes that you mentioned, like Albert Hoffman and um, oh, who's the other one? I. The other psychedelic guy.

Arpita 7:04

Oh, Sasha Shulkin.

Aarati 7:06

Yes. Those, those were the two that like I remember the most from the ones that you've done. And

Arpita 7:13

Me too.

Aarati 7:14

Or like they, they, like you were saying, they really stuck out in your mind. And I was like, that's so funny.'cause those are the episodes that I remember from you the most also. And then you were like, oh, I'm gonna do this like Spanish neuroscientist because of that. And I was like, oh no, that's what I'm gonna do too. Like that's exactly how my mind went. But then you said Jose Delgado and I was like, thank God it's someone different. Like it's someone different than I had picked, but it was just so funny'cause we were like on such the same, you know, wavelength on that. And I was like, I need to send her off with something good and something that she won't hate me for. So no quantum mechanics.

Arpita 7:54

No quantum mechanics, no physics, no math. Like thank you so much.

Aarati 7:58

Yes. And then, so I'm like you said, I'm doing Santiago Ramon y Cajal, and when I was reading his story, I was like, this is so good. She's gonna enjoy this story so much. It's so,

Arpita 8:09

Oh, great.

Aarati 8:09

Fun. It's so amazing. So he actually wrote his own autobiography and it was hilarious. It was just so fun to read. Um, it was like 600 pages, so quite long.

Arpita 8:22

You read 600 pages of his biography?

Aarati 8:25

I skimmed 600 pages.

Arpita 8:27

Okay. I was like, Jesus Christ. Well, first of all, a 600 page biography is. I don't know if I'd be able to fill 600 pages of my life. Like what?

Aarati 8:35

I know, right?

Arpita 8:36

Like what, like what did I do? Like, probably nothing that exciting. And then, yeah, on top of that, then making people read 600 pages of your life is crazy.

Aarati 8:44

And it's so funny'cause he was like fully aware of that and towards the end of it he was like, man, I've kept, I've, I've done too much.

Arpita 8:52

You know, we love a self-aware queen, like, you know? That's great.

Aarati 8:56

Yeah. So he was, it was just such a pleasure to read and so I was like, I'm trying to cut this down. I'm trying to make it, you know, shorter. But he, his life was just so fun and amazing and I was like, Arpita's just gonna love this episode. Hopefully. Um, okay.

Arpita 9:09

I'm, I'm sat. I'm ready.

Aarati 9:11

Yeah. Alright, so we are doing Santiago Ramon y Cajal, who is like the father of neuroscience. And part of the reason I chose him also was because he's known for his artistic drawings of neurons, which is part of science communication and what this podcast is also about. And so I just thought it was like a really good one to end on, a science communicator and someone who became famous for his artistry and his beautiful depictions of the brain.

Arpita 9:40

Totally agree.

Aarati 9:41

Yeah. Okay, let's go. So Santiago was born in a town called Petilla De Argon in Navarre, Spain. And I should have mentioned there's gonna be so much Spanish in this episode, so forgive me, please ahead of time.

Arpita 9:55

You know, take Spanish any day over like French or German. I feel like there's been so many languages where I'm just like. Sorry. Sorry to the Germans. Sorry to the French.

Aarati 10:05

Yes. Like, sorry, sorry. Yeah, so I'm gonna try my best. Um, and in some places I actually like wrote down phonetically what it's supposed to sound like.

Arpita 10:15

Wow.

Aarati 10:15

So hopefully that'll help.

Arpita 10:16

So impressive and prepared.

Aarati 10:17

We'll see. We'll see. I'll probably butcher it anyway, but, um, so Santiago was born on May 1st, 1852. His mother was Antonia Cajal and his father Justo was working as a surgeon. After two years, the couple had a second son named Pedro, who will become important later on. The family moved around a lot depending on where Justo was working. And during this time, the couple had two more children, both daughters, Pabla and Jorga. So at this point they have four kids, and Justo has earned enough money working as a surgeon to fulfill his life's ambition of going to medical school. So he leaves his wife and four children to go to Madrid to study medicine.

Arpita 11:05

Wait, sorry, wasn't he a surgeon?

Aarati 11:07

Yes, but this is like the 1800s. So this is like Lister time, like pre...

Arpita 11:13

Got it, got it, got it.

Aarati 11:13

Pre-Lister time.

Arpita 11:14

So surgeon, surgeons and doctors are not, that's not a circle. Those are two....

Aarati 11:19

Yes.

Arpita 11:19

Okay. Understood. Okay.

Aarati 11:21

Yes.

Arpita 11:21

I'm back.

Aarati 11:21

Yes.

Arpita 11:22

For a second. I thought I hallucinated. I was like, wait,

Aarati 11:25

No. Yes. He's a surgeon and now he's going to medical school, so. Okay. Okay. Um, so he leaves his wife and four kids to go to Madrid to study medicine. And Santiago, who is the eldest child, is probably four or five years old now. So I'm just imagining like his poor mother who has...

Arpita 11:44

Oh my god.

Aarati 11:45

Four literal babies and she's handling all of them by her. Herself, you know, crazy.

Arpita 11:50

Goodbye.

Aarati 11:50

Um, yeah. But he succeeds. Justo succeeds. He gets his medical degree and he gets a position as a community doctor in a village called Ayerbe. And so the family settles there for a while, and this is where Santiago spent most of his childhood. So Justo had had a tough life, um, and he basically pulled himself up through hard work and discipline. And because of this, he was very authoritarian and very tough on his kids. He had very high expectations for them. He wanted both his sons Santiago and Pedro to follow in his footsteps and study medicine, but neither of them were like model citizens. They were both kind of crazy kids. Like boys will be boys. There's that thread running through this whole story.

Arpita 12:36

Like from the Nobel episode.

Aarati 12:39

Yes, absolutely. Like we're in that exact same vein. So they were both pretty terrible students. Santiago especially had a hard time because a lot of what was taught in school was stuff that had to be learned through memorization and he had a pretty bad memory. He was also very mischievous and according to his relatives, he was quote,"a restless little devil, willful and unbearable." End quote.

Arpita 13:08

I love,

Aarati 13:10

I have written down some of like the things, like some of the antics that he got up to.

Arpita 13:14

Oh dear.

Aarati 13:14

There were so many, so I tried to like condense it to the best ones. So one of his earliest memories was going into a weaver shop and tangling all of their threads and shuttles. Later when he was three or four years old, he started hitting a horse until it kicked him in the forehead, causing him to fall unconscious and bleed so badly that people thought he had died.

Arpita 13:37

Oh, so my God.

Aarati 13:39

Yeah, he was unconscious for like a couple days. People thought he was a goner.

Arpita 13:43

A couple days?! Jesus.

Aarati 13:46

Yeah.

Arpita 13:46

Oh my God,

Aarati 13:47

yes. When he was eight, his family moved to Ayerbe, like I said, and there he and the local boys would play sports, run races, get into fights, but also throw stones at each other and at street lamps and steal fruits from people's orchards. Um, they would play war games or like hunting games. And Santiago was the best at making armor and weapons from cardboard and tin cans. And he was especially known for his arrows because his arrows went the furthest and didn't go off course they flew. True. Which I'm like, that's, that's great. Like you can make good arrows out of tin cans and cardboard. Fantastic. But one saving graces. He did put balls on the end of the arrows so that none of the kids or animals that they shot at would actually get hurt. So that's good. That's nice of him. But the worst one was by the time he was 11, he had developed a fascination for boys will be boys gunpowder naturally.

Arpita 14:52

There it is.

Aarati 14:53

Yep. So he built a cannon using a log that he found that was left over from some construction work that, he drilled a hole into. And when it was complete, he and his friends decided to test it by aiming it at a neighbor's orchard gate and completely obliterated it. So then the neighbor complained to the mayor of the town and the mayor sent an official to Santiago's house to teach him a lesson and took him to jail.

Arpita 15:22

Oh my God. And he's a child?

Aarati 15:24

Yeah, he's 11. But his father fully supported this because his father, again, is like this very strict authoritarian. So he fully supported the imprisonment and Santiago ended up spending three or four days in jail. And by the end, he said he was sincerely sorry and remorseful for what he had done. So he's like, yeah, I learned my lesson. But his takeaway apparently was like, don't aim at people's property. So he built another cannon and he just shot it at the side of a hill this time so that it wouldn't actually destroy anyone's property, but still messing with gunpowder.

Arpita 16:02

Okay. Marginally better, I suppose.

Aarati 16:05

Yeah, a little bit better. He also loved animals. He would spend a lot of time roaming around the countryside, exploring nature. He's particularly loved birds, and he would keep a bunch of them that he raised and cared for. And around this time is when he also picked up an interest in art. But unfortunately, his parents considered drawing and painting to be a quote unquote"sinful amusement". So he could only draw when he was outside of the house when no one could see him, and he would draw, like, whatever interested him, basically. And at that age it was these scenes of mythical Greek and Roman heroes, like ships sinking the oceans. War scenes, like all of these.

Arpita 16:50

Love it. Yeah. Very cute. Yeah.

Aarati 16:52

Yeah. Those kinds of things.

Arpita 16:53

It sounds, it sounds par.... It sounds par for the course.

Aarati 16:56

Yes.

Arpita 16:57

From... based on what we know so far.

Aarati 16:58

Yeah.

Arpita 16:58

This is making me laugh'cause I feel like his parents are giving like, stereotypical, like Asian parents. They're like, you have to go to med school.

Aarati 17:04

Mm-hmm.

Arpita 17:05

Don't draw. Like, you gotta do these things like stay, behave, like don't blow things up. Yeah, yeah. Like discipline.

Aarati 17:11

And he's like, I wanna be an artist!

Arpita 17:13

Yeah. I'm a free spirit. Yeah.

Aarati 17:16

Yeah, exactly. Um, that's exactly what's happening. So he also enjoyed drawing some of the apostles like St. James who was. The patron saint of soldiers and pilgrims and who legend has, it was a warrior himself, apparently.

Arpita 17:33

Hmm.

Aarati 17:33

So I can totally see that, like, fitting in with

Arpita 17:36

mm-hmm.

Aarati 17:36

What he was interested in. One day he stole a picture of St. James from the church so that he could practice drawing it. And his father found out and was like, you know, I don't really approve of you drawing. I can't believe you stole something for the church but let's see if you actually have any potential. So he wanted to show Santiago's drawings to an artist and kind of get them appraised. And keep in mind he's still like 12 at this point. But there weren't really any artists in their town. So his father settled for a guy who had been hired to whitewash the church, and Santiago showed the pictures that he had drawn to the whitewash painter, and the painter was like, wow, this sucks. Like your proportions are all wrong. This kid is never gonna be an artist.

Arpita 18:24

Interesting. Okay.

Aarati 18:26

And I have to say like I disagree strongly because in his autobiography he included pictures of like his terrible drawings when he was 12. And I'm like, dude, I can't draw like that. That's so good.

Arpita 18:39

Okay. But this guy was whitewashing a building, right? Like you can't mess that up.

Aarati 18:43

Yeah, exactly.

Arpita 18:45

Like, well first of all, it's not even paint, it's whitewash. And second of all, it's like. What, what, yeah. What skill does that take?

Aarati 18:52

Yeah, exactly. But I was, I was kind of like, I wonder if his father paid the white washer or something to say that because

Arpita 19:00

That's actually really funny. That's really funny.

Aarati 19:03

Yeah, because I was like, these are really good. But Santiago believed him and was super disappointed that, you know, he got that kind of negative feedback. So he thought maybe I should give up on art and focus on a medical career like my dad wants me to. And in his autobiography he wrote quote,"Farewell to ambitious dreams of glory, illusions of future greatness! I must exchange the magic palette of the painter for the nasty and prosaic bag of surgical instruments.

Arpita 19:33

What?

Aarati 19:35

Yeah, like his whole autobiography is written like this. And so I was just like...

Arpita 19:39

I can't believe you... I can't believe you believe you committed to 600 pages of that. That would've driven me insane.

Aarati 19:43

I was having a great time. I was like, this guy is just so funny. Like, he's so over the top. He's so dramatic. And like for all of that. He didn't give up on art at all. He just, he was, he said all that. And then he just continued to doodle in like the margins of his school papers, draw caricatures of his teachers. Like he didn't, he didn't give up at all. I was like, you were just like,"oh, woe is me". And now you're still doing it. So

Arpita 20:10

You're like, I don't care at all about that.

Aarati 20:12

Yeah. So surprise, surprise, his grades did not improve because he's doodling everywhere. Despite the fact that his teachers and his father were so hard on him. His parents kept transferring him to different schools, hoping that somewhere there would be some teacher who would be able to rein him in. But he continued getting into fights and playing pranks and just barely scraping by in school. Somehow in 1864, he manages to pass his final school exams. And he was like, yes, finally, I'm free. I can enjoy the summer. And his dad was like, okay, no enough fooling around, no replaying, no more drawing. You need to sit down and seriously study if you're gonna become a doctor.

Arpita 20:56

Very hyper fixated on this. I see.

Aarati 20:58

Yes. Like you need to become a physician. You need to become a doctor. And so Santiago saw that. He was like, I don't think I can talk him out of this. Um,

Arpita 21:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do we have a reason why, other than he was a doctor? Was it like just a respective profession or just like did, was there, like did he have a reason because he clearly doesn't have potential?

Aarati 21:20

I think Justo, the father was just like, I've worked so hard to become a doctor and I want my sons to like also be successful and not, you know, have a hard life, I guess. And so they should also be disciplined and work hard. It takes hard work to succeed in life.

Arpita 21:36

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 21:36

Um, and he just wanted, he was just like, this is a pathway to success and I want, I want them to be successful. I think that was the main thing.

Arpita 21:43

Interesting. Okay.

Aarati 21:44

Yeah. So Santiago's like, okay, I don't think I can like, you know, talk him out of this one. So he's like, okay, fine, I'll study, but like, if you really want me to be serious about it, I need to be left alone in absolute silence somewhere where no one can bother me. And so his father agreed to let him use a small room next to the barn that they had, and the room had roof access. So Santiago built a little quote unquote confessional or niche out of boards. And he would go up there and he would hide behind the boards, spending most of his time drawing. So he was not studying at all.

Arpita 22:23

So he created like a secret room in his secret room?

Aarati 22:26

Yeah, basically.

Arpita 22:27

Okay.

Aarati 22:27

He like went up on the roof, but like, because he was on the roof, if anyone came out to the barn to check on him, he could see them coming. And so he would quickly go back down into the

Arpita 22:37

Wow.

Aarati 22:37

Into the room where he was supposed to be studying. Yeah.

Arpita 22:40

That is so funny. It's so mischievous.

Aarati 22:43

Yeah, I know, right? So one day while he's up on the roof, he happens to look over into his neighbor's window, into their library, and it's like full of all of these novels, like the Three Musketeers and Don Quixote and Robinson Cruso and Santiago's like, oh my gosh, my father never lets me read any of these. They're all like fantasy fiction kind of books, which is again, like this frivolous...

Arpita 23:08

Not serious. Yeah, yeah.

Aarati 23:09

Like you can't read fiction books in our house. So Santiago gets super excited and he's like, okay, I need to somehow read these books. So he works out a plan that in the morning when everyone's asleep in the house, he would sneak through the window of his neighbor's house, quietly borrow a book, read it, and then place it back carefully when he was done. And he went through like a bunch of his neighbor's library like this without getting caught ever. So he wrote quote"At last though, by illicit means I made the acquaintance of the splendid creatures of the imagination, superb and magnificent beings, all energy and determination with overgrown hearts. Shaken by superhuman passions.

Arpita 23:53

I can't believe you read 600 pages of that. I'm so annoyed.

Aarati 23:59

You know, this is the person who had to learn about Shakespeare when she was like in sixth grade and had a hard time with it. I finally got it by eighth grade. I was like, I finally understand what he's talking about.

Arpita 24:11

It really is such a different language. I feel like in high school we had to read, shoot, what is that one? Epic? Um,

Aarati 24:21

The Odyssey or something?

Arpita 24:22

No, it wasn't The Odyssey. It was like another one like that. And I remember being like, what? What is happening? What are the words that I am looking at right now? Like this makes no sense to me whatsoever. And I...

Aarati 24:35

Yeah.

Arpita 24:35

And that was like peak SparkNotes era. I was just like, Spark Notes-ing the hell out of this. I was just like, yeah, tell me, help me, like explain this to me.

Aarati 24:45

Yeah.

Arpita 24:45

Like this is ChatGPT

Aarati 24:47

Yes. Yeah. No, it was really funny when I was in school and I was like learning Shakespeare and stuff apparently my teachers got it into their head that I was too shy, which I was. And they're like, like, you know, the answers to stuff, you just don't raise your hand like you should, you should raise your hand more. And I'm just like, yeah. But so then in an effort to get me out of my shyness, they started calling on me at random. Like even when...

Arpita 25:13

oh, that's so mean.

Aarati 25:14

Yeah, I know. And I was just like... and so it kind of worked because then I would like raise my hand for questions that I absolutely knew the answer to so that I wouldn't be embarrassed by like not knowing the answer.'cause that was really what was holding me back is like, what if I get it wrong?

Arpita 25:28

Totally, totally.

Aarati 25:29

You know? Yeah.

Arpita 25:30

So you, like, you don't have to explain that to me. I, I was also a shy kid, like.

Aarati 25:34

Yeah, yeah. But like, when it came to Shakespeare, I was like, I have no clue what's going on. Oh, yeah. And they would like call on me and they would be like, Hey, you wanna take a stab at like what this passage means? And I'm like. No thank you. I have no idea. Yeah. What is happening? And they were like so convinced that I knew and I'm like, I legit don't know. No idea what is going on. And it took me like two years to figure out what, what Shakespeare was talking about. So...

Arpita 26:03

it's fair. It's a fair, yeah, it's a fair question. I don't...

Aarati 26:06

So yeah, it, it's kind of like I had to switch that part of my brain back on when I was reading this. I was like, we're back. We're back in that era. We're back in that like,

Arpita 26:14

That makes sense.

Aarati 26:15

Yeah. Okay. So. I didn't know this, but apparently in the mid 1800s the normal age to attend university for a bachelor's degree was somewhere between 13 and 16 years old. Because I was reading this and it's like by the time he's 14, Santiago is in his third year of his bachelor's degree. And I'm like, excuse me, what? Like he's 14 and he's...

Arpita 26:38

Interesting.

Aarati 26:38

He's doing his bachelor's degree? And I was like looking that up and apparently that's normal. So

Arpita 26:43

I guess'cause they didn't really go to high school.

Aarati 26:45

Yeah.

Arpita 26:46

Right? Because like they didn't really go to high school. Like high school ended much earlier. So then if they went to college, it was probably also earlier.

Aarati 26:52

Yeah, like I was, I was so confused for a bit there.'cause I was like, wasn't he failing? Like all his courses? How is he doing his bachelor's when he's 14? But yeah, he's doing his bachelor's. He's barely scraping by again. And so his father is seeing him like struggling at school. And so he made Santiago leave school to work as an apprentice at a barbershop. And Santiago wrote quote"In taking such an extreme decision with regard to me, my father aimed at two ends for the present to tie me closely, depriving me of the leisure necessary for rambles and raids and besides to teach me a trade which might someday make a living for me in case my ability should prove irremediable or should I be prematurely orphaned.

Arpita 27:35

Okay. A little dramatic, but

Aarati 27:36

Yeah, he was, he's very dramatic.

Arpita 27:39

Yeah, there's a lot of drama.

Aarati 27:41

So although Santiago was initially upset by this, he eventually grew to like it at the barbershop. He met a lot of interesting people and he was able to impress the barber with his caricature drawings of political figures. So the barber took a liking to him and started to let him off early when work was slow. So he just like started fooling around anyway.

Arpita 28:00

Question. This is like barbershop, like they do like surgeries, right?

Aarati 28:05

I don't think so. I think it was like a haircut, like...

Arpita 28:07

Truly just a hair... Okay.

Aarati 28:09

Yeah, I believe so. I don't think Santiago's father would've trusted him enough at this point.

Arpita 28:14

Okay.

Aarati 28:14

To do like actual surgical stuff.

Arpita 28:16

Okay, so not like the more antiquated flavor of barbershop.

Aarati 28:21

Yeah, exactly.

Arpita 28:22

Okay.

Aarati 28:23

I don't think so. I didn't read anything about it, just said barbershop and so I was like, I assume it's just hair.

Arpita 28:29

Okay.

Aarati 28:29

I'm assuming, So, yeah, so it didn't really work like Santiago's still fooling around, um, because the barber let him off early. So, Santiago's father's like, okay, clearly that didn't work, so let's try something more boring. Let's try a cobbler. So he made Santiago do this app apprenticeship at the cobblers. And he had a terrible time of it because he was given like the most boring jobs of like sweeping and like organizing stuff. And he was just like, this is so hard. And it wasn't as easy to charm the cobbler as it was the barber. So Santiago's like, I guess I'm just gonna actually have to put in effort and you know, try to get out of the jobs of sweeping and doing all this boring stuff. Um, because. Making boots and making shoes is at least a little more interesting than sweeping the floor. So let's aim for that. You know,

Arpita 29:21

I see, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Aarati 29:23

So after a year, Justo decided his son, Santiago had settled down enough to return to school. But Santiago said he would only go back to school if he was allowed to enroll in drawing classes alongside his scientific classes. And so Justo was like,

Arpita 29:41

Way, way to... Way to stick up for yourself.

Aarati 29:43

Yeah. Way to negotiate.

Arpita 29:43

Stick it to the man. Yeah, exactly.

Aarati 29:45

Yeah. So Justo reluctantly agreed. And so Santiago's like, yes. Awesome. So he goes back to school with this like renewed enthusiasm. And now because of this, he's actually doing pretty well in his classes because he has some motivation. His only slip up was when he couldn't resist drawing a caricature of one of his professors on a wall and nearly got thrown out of the school

Arpita 30:08

On the wall? Oh my goodness.

Aarati 30:10

Yeah, there was apparently like a big blank white wall, and he was like moth to a flame. Like, I need to fill that with something.

Arpita 30:18

Oh, my... but on a wall. Like not even just in your like notebook.

Aarati 30:24

No. Um, and it was like apparently like life size and everything.

Arpita 30:29

Oh, jesus.

Aarati 30:30

So he almost got thrown out of school. His father managed to make some calls and made them let Santiago stay. And once again, he was just. Barely able to pass his final exams and finish his bachelor's degree. Hi, everyone. Artie here. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. If so, and you wish someone would tell your science story, I founded a science communications company called Sykom, that's S-Y-K-O-M, that can help. Sykom blends creativity with scientific accuracy to create all types of science, communications, content, including explainer videos, slide presentations, science, writing, and more. We work with academic researchers, tech companies, nonprofits, or really any scientists. To help simplify your science, check us out at sykommer.com. That's S-Y-K-O-M-M-E r.com. Back to the story. So that summer Santiago's father's like, okay, finally we can start training you to be a physician. Like really one track mind this guy.

Arpita 31:39

Yeah. Seriously.

Aarati 31:40

So Justo starts to teach Santiago anatomy and he believed that the best way to learn anatomy was seeing it firsthand rather than looking at it in books.

Arpita 31:51

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 31:51

So the way they did this was Santiago and his father snuck into a deserted cemetery one night so that they could collect bones to study.

Arpita 31:59

I I had a, I had a feeling you were gonna say this. Yeah. Please keep going.

Aarati 32:03

Yeah. But this is actually what finally awoke Santiago's interest in science and medicine because the bones were something he could actually see and touch and observe. It wasn't like memorization. And so because of that, he actually like started to pick information up and like remember it and retain it. And so

Arpita 32:21

Interesting.

Aarati 32:21

So his father is like, you're teachable. Like this is working. You know, so he is so happy to see that Santiago's finally like gotten an interest in science and medicine. And so he's like, great, this is a viable career for you.

Arpita 32:40

We can do this.

Aarati 32:40

We can enroll you... Yeah., we could do this. We can enroll you in medical school.

Arpita 32:44

Just thinking about cadaver lab gives me the heebie-jeebies. I just like, just like,

Aarati 32:49

Like, ugh.

Arpita 32:50

And like, I get it. Like I understand the purpose and I think the consensus is that it is, people love it, I think in

Aarati 32:57

Mm-hmm.

Arpita 32:57

Like the general consensus is that it's really helpful and people really like it and really like learning hands-on.

Aarati 33:04

Yeah.

Arpita 33:05

I acknowledge that. But also it's, it is...

Aarati 33:08

yeah. This is something you had to do for PT school though, right? Like,'cause I did not have to do this I

Arpita 33:13

had to do it for pT school, and it was like the first class on the first day of school and I was like,

Aarati 33:17

Mm-hmm.

Arpita 33:18

What have I done? I was like, I was like...

Aarati 33:20

what did I get myself into?

Arpita 33:22

I was like, what have I done? And you know, like the really disgusting thing is, is that formalin is an appetite stimulant. And so yeah, it's horrible. And so you actually leave and you are starving, which is like so gross. That's so you leave and you're like ravenous, like you just like, oh,

Aarati 33:42

That's so weird.

Arpita 33:43

Know that, isn't that so gross? Like I feel like it should be the opposite.

Aarati 33:45

That's such a like weird paradox, like...

Arpita 33:48

it is.

Aarati 33:49

To go through

Arpita 33:50

And it's like something about the smell or like something about I can't, I don't know what it's exactly, because like you're not completely, I mean you're obviously not eating anything, but you're still like, some part of it is entering your body.

Aarati 34:01

Yeah.

Arpita 34:01

And it is, it's an appetite stimulant.

Aarati 34:04

Weird. That's so weird.

Arpita 34:05

Yeah, it's horrible.

Aarati 34:06

That would mess with my head so much.

Arpita 34:07

It, it does.

Aarati 34:08

Oh my gosh.

Arpita 34:09

Can, can confirm.

Aarati 34:10

That's so bizarre.

Arpita 34:12

Um, anyway, I'm glad it was a positive experience for Santiago. Please continue.

Aarati 34:15

Yes. Yes. So Santiago enrolls in medical school at the University of Zaragoza and here thanks to excellent professors he did pretty well actually. His only thing that held him back was that he was a pretty nervous speaker. So like if a professor called on him to answer a question, he couldn't find the right words a lot of the time because he got really nervous. But over overall, he did pretty well. His father also got a position as an anatomy teacher at the university. So Justo and Santiago spend a lot more time together, like you said, dissecting cadavers and learning about the body. And now actually Justo was really proud of Santiago when he started sketching and painting anatomical structures. He's like, oh, you're putting your art to good use. Good job. So Santiago really threw himself into studying physiology and anatomy. And in his other classes he did just well enough to pass. So still not like an exceptional student, but better. But he still had his distractions. He still loved reading fiction and poetry. And he also became kind of weirdly, like basically a gym bro. So he

Arpita 35:28

Stop.

Aarati 35:29

Yeah, like he's like had thought that all of his, like running around and adventures would've made him the strongest and toughest one in class. But then when he got to the university, he realized that there are guys in his class who are stronger than him and he couldn't stand that. So he started spending two hours a day every day in the gym, lifting weights and doing gymnastics.

Arpita 35:50

What did the gym look like in this time period?

Aarati 35:53

I have no idea.

Arpita 35:53

Like, what were they doing in there? Like, were they like squatting? Like was there squat racks? Like what were they doing in there?

Aarati 35:58

I don't know. I would like, I would imagine there are weights, like he said he was lifting weights. So I can imagine like iron kind of dumbbell type of things. Are you looking up like 1800s gym?

Arpita 36:09

Well, it's probably like, was it almost turn of the century or like late 1800s?

Aarati 36:13

Um, 1870s.

Arpita 36:16

Okay. Yeah. Uh, gymnastic apparatus, barbells and dumbbells. And they were focused on strength training, but it is unclear what they were doing. I guess the YMCA was actually around.

Aarati 36:31

Oh, really? All the way back then?

Arpita 36:33

Apparently. Wait, I wanna see, oh, the bizarre workouts that led to modern gyms. Oh my god. These are hilarious. These are just like, they're,'cause they didn't have exercise clothes, so they're wearing like full gowns and tuxedos.

Aarati 36:49

Are you serious?

Arpita 36:50

Yes.

Aarati 36:50

They're working out in like..

Arpita 36:52

Yes.

Aarati 36:53

Full gowns.

Arpita 36:54

Suits. Like...

Aarati 36:54

Oh my God, that's amazing.

Arpita 36:56

That is so funny. They look like kind of torturey devices. Imagine like if all of the, you know, when you're at the gym and there's like the equipment, like you can like, you know, do the leg press or like, you know

Aarati 37:06

mm-hmm.

Arpita 37:07

Like all the machines. Yeah. It's like, imagine like a super antiquated version of that. Like that's what they were doing. So it's not free weights

Aarati 37:14

Oh, interesting. Interesting.

Arpita 37:16

Wow. That was an amazing sidebar. It's just like bizarre to see them wearing just like what I would consider formal wear.

Aarati 37:25

Yeah. To go to the gym.

Arpita 37:26

But they're at the gym.

Aarati 37:28

That's so funny.

Arpita 37:29

That's so funny.

Aarati 37:30

Yeah. So he spent hours a day lifting weights, doing gymnastics and getting stronger. And honestly, by the end of it, he was pretty vain about his strength and was like, yeah, come at me. Like he would challenge anyone, anyone who like tried to say, you're not as strong as you think you are. He'd be like, oh really? Like, let's go. Let's go right now. So yeah,

Arpita 37:51

He really is a gym bro.

Aarati 37:52

He really was.

Arpita 37:53

He really is.

Aarati 37:54

Um, it is just like an interesting sidebar, so. In 1873, he finally graduated with his medical license and was immediately drafted into the military and was put into the Army medical service. And initially he was stationed in a relatively calm area where the military had a presence just to prevent anything from happening in that town. So it was like very calm. And Santiago was pretty disappointed by this.'cause he wasn't in the middle of any action. He was like...

Arpita 38:23

of course not.

Aarati 38:24

I thought we were at war. Where's the fighting? Come on. You know? But then a year later, he was ordered to join an expedition to Cuba, which was fighting for its independence from Spain. And he was very excited for this'cause he's like, finally, I get to go on an adventure. I get to go see the world, and I'm gonna be like those heroes in those novels that I've read. But once he got to Cuba, he was stationed in a very remote hospital called Vista Hermosa, which was basically in the middle of a swamp, in the middle of nowhere. And. He was treating soldiers who were just falling sick from all the tropical diseases there. So it's like, not again, any action, like not exciting per se, in the way that he was hoping. And eventually Santiago himself caught malaria and tuberculosis and had to spend months recovering. And because he was so sick, he couldn't look after patients. So he decided to put the forced bedrest to good use and spend his time learning English, so he might as well do something productive. However, his condition kept on getting worse until he started begging for a medical discharge. But there weren't really any other physicians, so it took him several months to finally be able to be discharged and allowed to go back to Spain. And so on the way back to Spain, because of the fresh sea air and the better food when he got home, he. Basically was able to recover and go back to normal. Although he lamented that he was never quite as strong as he had been and never completely got rid of the malaria anemia. So,

Arpita 39:59

Oh dear. Okay. Well, yeah. At least you're alive.

Aarati 40:03

Yeah, exactly. So back in Spain, Santiago returned to the University of Zaragoza and he completed his doctorate in medicine. His final exams, for some reason, were held in Madrid. I couldn't figure out why. So he went there and he passed, but while he was in the city, he met a Professor Aureliano Maestre de San Juan. Hopefully

Arpita 40:30

You did great.

Aarati 40:31

Who invented Santiago to look through a microscope at some histological slides, and that's when he kind of fell in love with microscopy. He was like, oh my gosh, there's this whole tiny little world. This is amazing. So when he went back to Zaragoza, he used some of the money that he had saved from his time in the military to set up his own microscopy lab. And he wrote quote,"With the attitude of a fascinated spectator, I examined the blood core muscles, the epithelial cells, the muscle fibers, nerve fibers, et cetera, pausing here and there to draw or photograph the more captivating scenes in the life of the infinitesimally Small. After getting his doctorate, Santiago got an appointment as an acting assistant at the Faculty of Medicine, and then two years later, Santiago was appointed director of anatomical museums at the University of Zaragoza. By this time, he's 27 and he decides he really should get married, and so he told his family like, I'm gonna go look for a bride. And they were like. Good luck finding a girl who's gonna marry you. You know, basically like, yeah. But he did, one day he was on a walk and he met a woman named Silveria Fananas Garcia whose quote,"rosy and smiling face resembled that of the Madonna's of Raphael.

Arpita 41:54

Wow. Okay.

Aarati 41:55

Yeah. High praise. Um, He dated her and soon proposed and they were married and the couple ended up having seven kids together.

Arpita 42:05

Jesus.

Aarati 42:06

Yeah, it's a lot. Some sources I read said 12 and I was like, yikes. So, but

Arpita 42:13

Oh God.

Aarati 42:13

Everyone kind of settled on seven, so I was like, hopefully that's the correct number. 12 would just be a lot.

Arpita 42:19

Oh my goodness.

Aarati 42:21

So now that he's married, Santiago worked very hard at advancing his career so he could rise to a position where he could like make enough money to support his family. In 1883, he gets a position at the University of Valencia as a Professor of General and Descriptive Anatomy. And here he continues to do work in histology, but he also becomes interested in bacteriology. So this is kind of like a little sidebar, but this is about 15 years after Louis Pasture had published his paper on germ theory. And so the field of bacteriology is very new and in vogue. And in 1885, a cholera epidemic is sweeping through Spain. So two years earlier, Robert Koch had discovered that cholera was due to a bacterial infection. And so when this epidemic broke out in Spain, the Spanish government enlisted a bunch of physicians like Santiago to study what was going on and report back to see if there's like, is this really a bacterial infection that's going, going around? So Santiago meets with patients and he stains samples so he can study the microbes. And he writes a monograph called"Studies on the rod microbe of cholera and prophylactic inoculations." And in this, he illustrates the pamphlet or the booklet with eight lithographs.

Arpita 43:48

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 43:49

And although this work was like by no means groundbreaking, he was really just confirming what Koch had discovered already, that this is like a bacterial infection the Spanish government was so pleased with him and his readiness to serve the country that they gifted him with a Zeiss microscope and

Arpita 44:07

Whoa.

Aarati 44:08

Yeah. And Santiago was like super thrilled by this. He said, quote,"upon the receipt of that unlooked for acknowledgement, my satisfaction and happiness knew no bounds." It was a far better microscope than the one that he had been using that he brought with Army money. So he was like super excited for it. Yeah.

Arpita 44:27

Wow. How did, wait, how did the government get attention? Is it because it was about a disease that was affecting a lot of people? Is that what happened? So it's like the cholera was affecting a lot of people and so then because he like wrote this monograph, they were like, oh, thank you so much.

Aarati 44:40

Yeah. So there was like a epidemic of cholera that was going through Spain and the Spanish government was like, we need to know more information about how is spreading. And they enlisted a bunch of like physicians to study it. So he was one of them.

Arpita 44:54

Okay. Okay.

Aarati 44:55

And he just did such a thorough job that they were like,

Arpita 44:57

I see.

Aarati 44:58

Wow. Amazing. Good job. Here's a, here's a microscope.

Arpita 45:01

Okay, here's a microscope.

Aarati 45:06

Um, but yeah, so he's super excited. So Santiago now with his brand new microscope, throws himself into histology and studying all types of tissues. He started publishing several articles on comparative histology and a textbook, and even this in this more like academic work. He loved writing in this very flowery and like fantastical language. So I chose this example of nerve cells,'cause that's what he's basically known for. He wrote, quote,"The nerve cell, the highest cast of organic elements with its gigantic arms stretched out like tentacles of an octopus to the provinces on the frontiers of the external world to watch for the constant ambushes of physiochemical forces." end quote.

Arpita 45:54

That's actually a pretty solid descriptor. I like the tentacles. It's like that's actually really like very solid.

Aarati 46:00

Mm-hmm.

Arpita 46:00

I'm into that.

Aarati 46:02

And he had descriptions like this for all the cells. For like muscle fibers, fat cells, eggs and sperm. Like everything. He had like these fantastic, amazing descriptions for all of them. So at the end of 1887, Santiago traveled to Madrid on some work business and there he met a professor Simarro, who showed Santiago an image of a nerve cell that had been stained and captured by Camillo Golgi, who is an Italian biologist and known for the Golgi body in cells.

Arpita 46:36

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 46:36

Camillo Golgi had developed a staining method called the Black Reaction, which used potassium by chromate to harden the tissue that they were studying, and then used silver nitrate as a stain which accumulated in the cells and made them turn black. And this was the first really clear image of a neuron that scientists had ever been able to produce. And Santiago just became fascinated by this from both a scientific perspective and an artistic one.

Arpita 47:07

The Black reaction sounds like it should be like a 2000s punk rock band, right?

Aarati 47:13

Oh, yeah. Like my chemical romance or something like.

Arpita 47:15

Yeah. It does feel like it should live in that era.

Aarati 47:18

Yeah, it does. It sounds kind of like scary. Okay. So at the time, what scientists knew about the brain was that it communicated with other parts of the body using electrical impulses. And they knew that nerve cells had this long branched architecture, but they were operating under an idea called the Reticular Theory, which was the idea that the brain and all the nerve cells in our body were connected in a single continuous network or web of tissue called the reticulum. So Camillo Golgi's stained image of this neuron didn't really go against that idea because although you could see the neuron cell body and like the dendrites branching off of it, you couldn't really see what happened at the end of those dendrites. The stain just kind of blurred out or it diffused away. And so Golgi was operating under this particular theory, and so he assumed that the dendrites must just seamlessly join to other neurons and form this big mesh.

Arpita 48:20

Hmm. Okay.

Aarati 48:22

Yeah. But this was super exciting to Santiago because he had done his histology work on the brain previously, and he understood how difficult it was to get good images of brain cells. And so this image from Golgi was so incredibly clear, and even though it blurred out at the end, Santiago was like, there's potential here. So, after four years at the University of Valencia, he gets a position as the Chair of Histology and Pathological Anatomy at the University of Barcelona. So he and his family moved to Barcelona, and this is where he does like his most pivotal research in trying to figure out how the cells of the nervous system connect to each other. He wrote quote,"It was a case of finding out how the roots and branches of these trees in the gray matter terminate in that forest so dense that by a refinement of complexity there were no spaces in it so that the trunks, branches and leaves touch everywhere.

Arpita 49:20

Oh, interesting. I like that description too. It's like they, they, everything is touching and they're all connected.

Aarati 49:25

Yeah. So basically he's saying like the brain is just so dense with neurons.

Arpita 49:30

Yeah.

Aarati 49:30

That it's really hard to figure out like what an individual looks like.

Arpita 49:35

Like you can't say that one neuron is connected to these like five things. It's like 3D and it's like, so okay.

Aarati 49:41

Yeah. It's like everything's touching everything. Like it's so difficult. So basically what he did to parse this out is he improved Golgi's staining method by staining the cells with silver nitrate twice in a very specific timeframe. And also he used brain samples from very young or embryonic birds and mammals where the brain wasn't quite as fully developed. So the neurons weren't all formed fully, and so they weren't all densely packed together.

Arpita 50:09

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 50:10

Um, and so that way he could see individual neurons better. And this allowed him to stain more neurons and also see with greater clarity at the ends of the dendrites. And what he saw was that the dendrites did in fact have an end. They're not this continuous mesh. So Santiago, through his work, began to reject the Reticular Theory and instead came up with the Neuron Theory, which stated that the basic unit in the nervous system was an individual cell, which he called the neuron. And also from only looking at the neuronal structures the other huge theory that he came up with was the Law of Dynamic Polarization, which stated that these nerve cells communicate with each other using electrical impulses that travel in one direction only. So they receive an electrical signal from the dendrites near the cell body. The signal propagates in one direction down the axon, and then is transferred to another cell at the other end. And this again, was going against the Reticular Theory, which kind of stated that electrical impulses could travel bidirectionally or like anywhere throughout this continuous mesh. Everything's like continuous. So this was going against that as well.

Arpita 51:22

I could totally see how someone would think that it's bidirectional, right? Because

Aarati 51:27

Right.

Arpita 51:27

You have neurons that are motor that are going, you know, from your brain to your muscles, but then you have like sensory neurons that are coming from your skin to your brain.

Aarati 51:36

Mm-hmm.

Arpita 51:36

So it does make a lot of sense that you'd think that it's just like this closed loop.

Aarati 51:40

Yes.

Arpita 51:41

But it is true that it, it is not, I feel like it's so crazy that he figured out that there's this depolarization that's happening. Like

Aarati 51:49

Yeah.

Arpita 51:49

It feels so, like, it feels like the equipment that he is working on is so much more archaic and it's like, how did. How did you, how did you know that? Like you're just staining cell, like from what you're saying, it's like, you're like, how would you figure that out from a stain? You know, like, I don't,

Aarati 52:04

Yeah, i,

Arpita 52:06

so interesting.

Aarati 52:06

I couldn't figure that out either. I was,'cause it, it did say like, he only figured this out just by looking at the structures and I'm like, how though? Like, that seems

Arpita 52:14

Yeah. How though also, like what level of like, like, you know, like, um, magnification that he's looking at that even I feel like at the maximum magnification, like, you're not looking at like sodium channels, right?

Aarati 52:28

Yeah. Like, yeah.

Arpita 52:28

Like how could you possibly see something like that? So

Aarati 52:31

Yeah.

Arpita 52:33

Anyway, I'm just...

Aarati 52:33

I'm not, I don't know how he figured that out, but

Arpita 52:35

thinking while you're saying that.

Aarati 52:37

Yeah. But actually, um. He published his work in May, 1888 in the quarterly review of normal and pathological history, and this work was confirmed by his own brother, Pedro Ramon y Cajal, who had also eventually gone down the science route as per their father's wishes. So...

Arpita 52:58

No one is escaping.

Aarati 52:59

Yeah. So I think Pedro did a little bit more of like the experimental approach and like confirmed like what Santiago had found. But I just thought it was so fascinating that he could do that just from, just from looking at the structures and the drawings he was creating. So that's crazy to me.

Arpita 53:15

Yeah, I don't, I don't quite understand that, but that's amazing.

Aarati 53:18

Yeah, so he continued to publish his findings and lithograph drawings in small articles throughout 1888 and 1889, but he remained relatively unknown, partly because all of his publications were in Spanish.

Arpita 53:31

Interesting.

Aarati 53:32

And also, it's not easy to be the one who says,"No the theory that everyone is operating under is wrong. I have a new theory," you know, like,

Arpita 53:41

Right. That's totally fair.

Aarati 53:43

Yeah. But Santiago was very, very sure of his findings, and he couldn't just let his work be overlooked. So in 1889, he traveled to Germany to the Congress of the German anatomical society to present his work. And this was the first time besides his trip to Cuba that he had ever traveled outside of Spain. He presented his work at the conference, and there he met a prominent Swiss histologist, Rudolph Albert Von Kolliker, who took notice of Santiago's work and became a strong support of his. Kolliker, helped Santiago spread his work to the international scientific community. He said,"I have discovered you and I wish to make my discovery known in Germany." End quote. And from then on, Santiago was invited to many conferences across Europe and America to present his work. So he is getting some recognition.

Arpita 54:39

Yeah, it was like his little big break.

Aarati 54:41

Yes. So in 1892, Santiago was appointed to be the Chair of Histology and Pathological Anatomy at the University of Madrid, where he continued to study the structure of neurons and teach students and, you know, just continue down this route. But as he was rising in prominence, Camillo Golgi caught wind of Santiago's work and was like, dude, wait a minute. That's my staining method that you're using. You know, like, where's my credit? You need to gimme credit. And he came out with proof that he was the one who came up with the staining technique, the Black Reaction in the first place. And Santiago was like, yeah, totally props to you for discovering the black reaction. But A) I made it better because like now I'm staining the neurons twice and so I can actually see the ends of them. And B) although you did stain some neurons, you didn't do anything with those images, you didn't deduce anything from it or like, you know, try to make any meaning from it. So, you know, like,

Arpita 55:41

Wow, this is, this is just, this is science. I feel like 1 0 1. Like you, you do one thing and then someone, one ups you, and then it's like you're, you're no longer relevant.

Aarati 55:52

Exactly. So he was like, you know, don't try to pretend that I didn't do anything. Like, or like, don't try to pretend I'm just copying you. Like I, I definitely took this to the next level. Like give me some recognition too.

Arpita 56:05

Totally. That's fair. Honestly.

Aarati 56:08

Yeah. I thought so. Um, in 1900 Santiago was awarded the Moscow Prize by the International Medical Congress, and this led to initiative by many in the Spanish government, including the Prime Minister Francisco Silvela and the Minister of Education and Culture, Antonio Garcia Alix, to set up a research center to provide assistance and funding to Santiago to train future histology students. And the students that Santiago trained here went on to do all sorts of work in neurobiology, including studying neurodegenerative disorders, psychology and mental illness. So he's just teaching histology to this, a wide array of students.

Arpita 56:54

I wonder, you know, how we talked about previously about your science family tree?

Aarati 56:59

Yeah.

Arpita 56:59

Like, I wonder, I wonder if we, you know, like anyone that we worked with had Ramon y Cajal in their family tree.

Aarati 57:06

I wonder.

Arpita 57:08

Like it's not... I, I feel like it's well within the realm of possibility.

Aarati 57:12

I think so. I think like the number of students that he taught, you know?

Arpita 57:16

Right.

Aarati 57:16

Like

Arpita 57:17

yeah. And like what they went on to do, like it feels like they would be in their family tree.

Aarati 57:22

Yeah. Just like,

Arpita 57:23

Yeah.

Aarati 57:23

Especially'cause it, it sounded like all his students were interested in everything, like anything having to do with the brain. They went through him at some point. So...

Arpita 57:32

That's, that's especially because it feels like because he was one of the first people to do it then pretty much anyone who was interested in that probably at one point was with him. So then like it does feel like that school of thought or that division of science all kind of stem back to him. I don't know. That's interesting. I wonder if that's Google-able

Aarati 57:52

Probably, I mean, he had a couple of students that were more well known than others.

Arpita 57:57

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 57:57

Um, no one that, like, I, I didn't have time to like research...

Arpita 58:01

Oh, sure.

Aarati 58:02

Any of them, but like...

Arpita 58:02

I was just wondering.

Aarati 58:04

Yeah. But I, I can totally, I can totally imagine that, you know, they went on to do amazing work in all sorts of, all sorts of neurodegenerative diseases and all sorts of mental illnesses and like,

Arpita 58:16

Yeah.

Aarati 58:16

Yeah. So around this time also the Queen of Spain, Maria Christina, awarded him the Grand Cross of Isabella the Catholic, which is awarded for outstanding service and loyalty. And a few months later, he was also awarded another Grand Cross from King Alfonso XII. So now we're getting into like his awards. Obviously. In 1905, Santiago was awarded the Helmholtz Medal, which at first he didn't really understand the significance of, and he had to actually do some research on it to realize, oh, this is a big deal. Like the Helmholtz medal is given out only every two years to whoever has made outstanding scientific and technical breakthroughs in science. So he was really honored and humbled by that. And he, again, just got a lot of recognition from winning that medal. And that lasted for quite a while. And just as the excitement from that started to wear down in October, 1906, Santiago woke up, uh, one morning to a telegram from one of his colleagues. And all it said was, the Karolinska Institute has awarded you the Nobel Prize. Yeah.

Arpita 59:27

Oh my God. My jaw actually just dropped right now. Like,

Aarati 59:31

Yeah.

Arpita 59:32

I was like kind of nodding along, listening to all the awards. I was like, cool, cool, cool. And I was like, wait, what?

Aarati 59:38

Yes. Yeah. I think that's how he, he was also just like going on through his life.

Arpita 59:44

Yeah.

Aarati 59:44

And he wakes up one morning, he's like, oh, telegram from my friend. Wait, what?

Arpita 59:50

Yeah. That's amazing.

Aarati 59:50

Like I can imagine that was his exact reaction too.

Arpita 59:53

Oh my gosh. I love that.

Aarati 59:55

So a few days later, he received the official news from the Karolinska Institute that he would be awarded the prize in Physiology and medicine alongside Camillo Golgi. So...

Arpita 1:00:08

Oh, interesting.

Aarati 1:00:09

Yes. So as opposed to the Helmholtz Prize, which Santiago was like humbled by, but he could accept.

Arpita 1:00:15

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 1:00:16

The Nobel Prize was like such a prestigious award that he was kind of afraid of it initially. He was like, I don't deserve this, and it's gonna, it's shone such a spotlight on him that he was like, I can't, I can't believe that this is real. Because he was also the first histologist to ever win the prize.

Arpita 1:00:37

Uhhuh.

Aarati 1:00:38

So it was like very surreal for him. I think nevertheless, in December he travels to Stockholm to accept the prize, and this is the first time he meets Camillo Golgi in person. And as is custom, they both had to deliver a lecture, and Camillo Golgi went first and he describes his Black Reaction staining method. But then to everyone's shock and surprise, he started lecturing about the Reticular Theory of the nervous system, which by now is largely discredited and was pretty disrespectful to Santiago who was sharing the award for literally being the one to prove it wrong.

Arpita 1:01:16

Oh my God.

Aarati 1:01:17

Drama.

Arpita 1:01:18

That's so cringe. Oh, that's so cringey. Oh dear. Oh, it's so awkward.

Aarati 1:01:25

It is so bad. He showed a bunch of stainings and illustrations during his talk, and none of them were by Santiago. So just...

Arpita 1:01:34

oh.

Aarati 1:01:35

The disrespect. Yeah.

Arpita 1:01:37

This man is fighting and for what?

Aarati 1:01:40

I know, right? Just the ego, just the ego and pride on this man. I don't, I don't understand. Santiago was also pretty ticked off, and even though he had given Golgi recognition for developing the Black Reaction in the first place, Golgi was too egotistical apparently, to return the same kind of recognition back to Santiago's work. So when it was Santiago's turn to talk, his speech was just basically an immediate back-to-back contradiction of everything that Golgi had just said. And Santiago wrote, quote,"What irony of fate to pair together, like Siamese twins, united by the shoulders, scientific adversaries of such contrasting character."

Arpita 1:02:21

Okay. Honestly, facts. Like I agree with all of that,

Aarati 1:02:24

Right? Like, dude, yeah. So Santiago continues to work on, uh, anatomic studies of different parts of the brain, understanding the cell nucleus and neurons, and works on degeneration and regeneration of spinal cord nerves. When World War I comes around, he was greatly distressed by it because not only did it hinder scientific progress, because scientific equipment was harder to come by, but also because he thought the war was just generally something that was very wasteful of lives and resources and time. He was just like, what, what are we doing guys? Why are we fighting? He also lost contact with a lot of his international scientific colleagues during the war, and once the war was over, he learned with great sadness that many of them had passed away during those years when he lost contact because they're all like getting much older now, so,

Arpita 1:03:19

Mm-hmm.

Aarati 1:03:20

In 1920, King Alfonso XIII commissioned the construction of the Ramon y Cajal Institute, which is where our friend Jose Delgado from last episode spent some time studying.

Arpita 1:03:32

Yes.

Aarati 1:03:32

So, yep. That's where that came from. And Santiago continued to work for the rest of his life, even up until the day he died, which was on October 17th, 1932 at the age of 82. So he lived...

Arpita 1:03:47

wow. 82.

Aarati 1:03:49

Yeah.

Arpita 1:03:49

That's amazing.

Aarati 1:03:50

Yes.

Arpita 1:03:51

And he almost died like three times in there.

Aarati 1:03:53

I know. I didn't even tell you about one where he fell through the ice in a river, like almost drowned.

Arpita 1:03:58

Okay, so more than three maybe.

Aarati 1:04:00

Yeah, he, he almost died quite a bit. After his death there were numerous awards and tributes to his work, including a three meter tall statue of him in Madrid. There's been numerous exhibitions in museums of his drawings, including an ongoing one initiated by the NIH in 2014. And there was even an asteroid named after him in 2005, which

Arpita 1:04:24

Oh, cute.

Aarati 1:04:24

Random. But yeah, I like it. And so I just wanted to end with a quote that he uses to end, like in the last pages of his autobiography, which I thought was very fitting for the close of this chapter, like not only the episode, but also the Smart Tea chapter. Um, something to send you off with. It says, quote,"but I have no right to afflict the reader with melancholy reflections. Let us repel sadness, which is the mother of inaction, let us devote ourselves to life, which is energy, renovation, and progress, and let us keep on working.

Arpita 1:05:01

Oh, love that.

Aarati 1:05:02

Yeah.

Arpita 1:05:03

Oh, that's so great.

Aarati 1:05:04

This is very nice.

Arpita 1:05:04

Don't be sad. We're gonna keep working and we're gonna keep doing the thing. I love that.

Aarati 1:05:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Arpita 1:05:09

What a nice quote.

Aarati 1:05:10

So I was like, hopefully that's a good one to send you off with as your life takes a new direction. And I will also continue to keep working on the Smart Tea podcast.

Arpita 1:05:20

Yeah. Oh, that was a great quote. I love that. Great story. That was such a good one. I, you were totally right.

Aarati 1:05:25

Thank you.

Arpita 1:05:25

That was, that was a really good one.

Aarati 1:05:27

Yeah, it was a bit long, but, you know, 600 pages down to seven. Not bad.

Arpita 1:05:34

Yeah. You, you deserve a prize for that for sure.

Aarati 1:05:38

Thanks. Yes. Um, yeah. But I hope you enjoyed I hope everybody listening enjoyed and thank you so much to Arpita and we wish her the best on her new direction that her life is taking. Um, hopefully you'll be back at some point. Just pop in I'll and say hello.

Arpita 1:05:56

Sure. I would love that. I would love that.

Aarati 1:05:58

Yeah.

Arpita 1:05:58

Thank you so much. I appreciate you very much. Thanks for listening. If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you wanna share about an episode, reach out to us@smartteapodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok and Blue Sky at smartt podcast, and listen to us on Spotify, apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And leave us a rating or comment. It really helps us grow. New episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time.