12. Music as Emancipatory Learning with Raffaele Pozzi

Episode 12 Transcript: https://tinyurl.com/kv7n2cvp

In episode 12 of the Equity Leadership Now! podcast, Dr. Raffaele Pozzi, a professor of musicology and pedagogy at Roma Tre University, discusses the role of music education in shaping democratic and multicultural societies with host Dr. Jabari Mahiri. Dr. Pozzi emphasizes the need for a broader, more inclusive approach to music, where the focus is not only on the theoretical or technical aspects of music but also on listening, understanding, and appreciating diverse musical traditions. He stresses that music education should involve both academic learning and practical experience, highlighting the significance of becoming “a good listener” to different musical genres, which can foster greater empathy and cultural awareness.

Dr. Pozzi believes that music education can contribute to a more democratic society by encouraging students to engage with music from various cultures and backgrounds, thus promoting an understanding of difference and diversity. In his view, music is not just a technical skill but a means of connecting with different human experiences and expanding worldviews.

A key point of the discussion is the concept of becoming “a good listener." Pozzi argues, that to become “a good listener means also to be more communicative,” and that good listening is essential for both music education and interpersonal communication. He contrasts this with a traditional, "grammatical" approach to music that prioritizes technical knowledge over experiential engagement with music. He critiques the social barriers that often associate classical music with social class and suggests that music education should encourage young people to explore various genres, including rock and hip-hop, with an open mind.

Dr. Mahiri and Dr. Pozzi also explore the pedagogical implications of incorporating diverse musical genres into curriculum. Pozzi stresses that the value of music lies in its artistic and aesthetic richness, not in genre distinctions. He advocates for a curriculum that fosters curiosity and invites students to experience music outside of their immediate preferences. Mahiri raises thought-provoking questions, such as what happens when youth are more expert in a particular genre than the teacher? And how might educators navigate topics like drug-use, that are thematized in hip-hop music? Mahiri also asks, “How do we deal with these controversial issues that may actually represent the authentic interests and in some cases, values of youth?” 

In addressing the challenge of reconciling controversial content, such as the drug-related themes in hip-hop songs, Pozzi suggests that educators should engage students' values critically, using such moments as opportunities to expand their understanding of the broader cultural context.

Equity Leadership Now! hosts conversations with equity-conscious leaders from pre-K through university settings who transform structures and strategies for educating students, particularly for those from historically marginalized communities.

Transcript

Music as Emancipatory Learning
With Raffaele Pozzi

Jabari Mahiri Host, Editor, and Producer
Brianna Luna Audio Editor and Production Specialist
Mayra Reyes External Relations and Production Specialist
Becca Minkoff Production Manager
Diana Garcia Communications Manager and External Relations
Audra Puchalski Communications Manager and Web Design
Jennifer Elemen Digitally Mediated Learning Coordinator
Jen Burke Graphic Designer
Robyn Ilten-Gee Editor and Media Consultant
Rian Whittle Sound Technician
Transcript
Brianna Luna 0:17
Equity Leadership Now! hosts conversations with equity-conscious leaders from Pre-K
through university settings, who transform structures and strategies for educating,
particularly for those who are marginalized. We complement the mission and goals of the
21st Century California School Leadership Academy, 21CSLA.
Housed in the Leadership Programs of Berkeley School of Education, we acknowledge our
presence on unceded Ohlone land.
We explore innovative ideas and compelling work of educational leaders at the intersection
of research, policy, and practice to realize individual, social, and environmental justice
because our democracy depends on it.

Jabari Mahiri 1:08
Since we started this podcast, I've had the privilege of speaking with a number of
equity-conscious and transformative educational leaders in the United States, because it's
important to challenge ourselves to think outside the box. I'm thrilled to speak with
Professor Raffaele Pozzi, an Italian scholar of musicology at Roma Tre University. In our
conversation, Professor Pozzi shares how music can enable students, teachers, and leaders
to learn through listening beyond their comfort zones.
Raffaele Pozzi 1:39
Yes, well, my name is Raffaele Pozzi, my work as a professor is to teach musicology and
pedagogy and didactics of music, different disciplines, but always, disciplines, very
significant and important today, because for young people, but not only for young people,
also for adults, music is a quite important experience. And so, I think that today to study
musicological disciplines at an academic level is, I think, quite important to have a good
general information and education, also, considering also what we define lifelong learning.
Jabari Mahiri 2:59
Thank you. You know you and I first met several years ago before the COVID period, and it
was when I was on a book tour with my book, Deconstructing Race: Multicultural Education,
Beyond the Color-Bind. And you all put such a good reception at Roma Tre University for me.
And of course, the question that I'm about to ask you is actually embedded in that book,
and it's also a question that we ask of all of our guests and this, how do you identify
yourself, and how do you feel society in general identifies you?
Raffaele Pozzi 3:35
Well, I am usually identified with my profession in my work as a musicologist, which is in a
sense a little bit strange identification, because musicology, and in general, music is
considered something very technical. You have to demonstrate that you are able to play an
instrument, to play the piano, guitar, whatever, and all these practical activities needs
practice, and regular exercise. And so, sometimes the musician is considered a sort of a
monk in relationship with the theoretical and general rules of professional activities. This is
what people think about the musicology and the musicologist. But I think that we, more
and more, need to have a different approach to music. I personally, in my teaching, insist
on the importance of listening to music without a grammatical, theoretical approach,
because musicians, in principle, classical ones, but also rock music in any musical genre,
address their works creatively to the listener and not to the study that can be developed by
musicologists.


Jabari Mahiri 6:03
Then talk a little bit also about some of the practical implications of this claim that music
itself can be really contributory to developing young people to be members of a democratic
multicultural society.
Raffaele Pozzi 6:20
Yes, I think that you have to reach this goal, to have to have the contribution of music for a
better society and multicultural and democratic society, just because if we listen to music,
to the world music, and to the different tradition in musical tradition of the human
cultures, you experience the diversity of different music and all these musics are, of course,
important and an expression of the human creativity. The music is different from a
structural point of view because in different cultures, the music also has a different
organization, let's say a structural organization. And so, I think that the best contribution to
be a good listener of the musical cultures of the world is just to be aware of the importance
of the diversity in the cultural dimension of the man.
Jabari Mahiri 8:07
So that raises an interesting question, are there key differences that you see between a
music pedagogy in Italy or Europe more generally, as opposed to the United States? How
do we approach considerations of music education that might be different?
Raffaele Pozzi 8:28
Yes, well, I'm not so expert about the situation in the United States. I can, of course, know
very well the situation in Italy and in Europe. And what I can say about that is that, in
principle, we have, still, today, an approach. Well, I define that a grammatical approach, to
have a relationship with music through the theory, instead of listening or instead of
practicing or singing, and this is, I think, an abstract approach, and we have to go beyond
that to become a good listener. Because to become a good listener means also to be more
communicative. Also, we have to become good listener, also in the interpersonal
conversation and sometimes, at least in Italy, I see very often in the dialogue, people who
struggle and are not really capable and able to understand the reason of the other, and so
in this sense, to become a good listener goes in the direction of a more democratic society.
Jabari Mahiri 10:26
So this is fascinating, this idea of a good listener, and I want to problematize it just a little
bit, because music is culture, and people have different cultural preferences and different


genres of music. So how does your conceptual framework of being a good listener and
developing music from essentially the ground up, connect to spaces where music itself
actually represents concrete, and in some cases, hard-to-reconcile differences between
different members of the society? I'll push this just a little bit further. I'm an older guy, so,
you know, when hip-hop came along, you know, I was aware of it, but I was a rhythm and
blues guy. So, you know, hip-hop for me was like, what are these simple rhymes and
considerations of what I would consider a simplistic orientation to music? Of course, many
people would critique that. But from your perspective, how does this notion of being a
good listener accommodate the fact that people might not want to listen to certain other
people's music because they're not just, you know, having a problem with the music itself,
but the music represents a culture that, for whatever reasons, they may have a difference
with or a bias toward.
Raffaele Pozzi 11:49
Yes, this is a very important question, and because, of course, music represents, as you just
told, represent cultures, but also represent the social class, and we have to consider that in
the past, but also in some groups, for example, to listen to classical music become a sort of
social distinction. And this is absolutely false, and we must go beyond that, and just
because the real problem is to have the pleasure to listen to different music, and to
recognize the importance of diversity and otherness. So this is also important for another
reason, because when you for example, you consider teenagers, teenagers tend to have a
relationship with, for example, rock music. And sometimes they consider that classical
music is something connected with the world of the adults and of their parents, and it's not
so interesting. And so, I think that for example, in a school context, we have to help the
learners, not only to accept the diversity but also to learn something about the music they
don't usually listen to in their everyday life, to help them to discover, for example, how
much can be also interesting. Classical music, which is probably today, is a little bit far from
there, their common feeling and common sensibility.
Jabari Mahiri 14:21
But does it go in the reverse? You're talking about bringing classical music into the
education of pedagogy and didactics that would include classical music, would you also
have rock and hip hop brought into the educational arena for young people to digest, to
analyze, to understand, in the same way that you would approach classical music with
these same students.


Raffaele Pozzi 14:49
In the school context, it's not a matter of the selection of musical genre, but it's a matter of
selection of the quality and richness, aesthetic richness, of the music. You can have
richness in rock music, in jazz, or in classical music, and it's absolutely false. False to
consider, for example, classical music and the classical repertoire, a uniform representation
of musical quality, because also in the past, what we listen to today as classical music, was
simple entertainment. And so, the real problem and the real new dimension is to try to
listen and to appreciate the quality in itself of the music.
At school, we must always start from the experience of the learner, but we also have to
push the learner to, how can I say, have an adventurous listening and try to discover music
different from the music they practice or they listen to in their everyday life.
16:42
[musical break]
Jabari Mahiri 17:14
So the issue of music quality, who makes that determination when you start bringing music

into the curriculum, who makes the determination of what is high quality in jazz and hip-
hop and classical, in rock and country and any one of the genres of music that might be a

part of what young people need to be exposed to really understand different cultural
contexts, as it's represented in the music.
Raffaele Pozzi 17:42
Yes, I understand. I see your point. What I would like to say about that is, you have to
consider, for example, quality in music, something which is complex, which opens, opens a
larger view on different issues and different experiences. So, this is what makes the
difference between art and non-art, something artistic in any kind or in any genre, music is
something complex, well done, in the case of the written tradition, something well-written
and rich. Sometimes we listen to music that is a pure, simplistic experience. And also we
have to consider and to let the learner know that music is also a way to make money. And
so, there is also this aspect to take into consideration, because something simplistic, can be
sold more easily than something more complex and with an internal structure richer than
pure entertainment.


Jabari Mahiri 19:55
Excellent. You've given us a lot to think about. Let's wind down a little bit with some
concepts of, how do we bring this into an educational setting. What do you see as the role
of educational leaders to expand music curriculum in the direction that you are advocating
for, the direction where more of the soundscapes of people's lives are included in what we
listen to in a music curriculum?
Raffaele Pozzi 20:26
Well, so if I can suggest something to the leaders, it is to start from the daily experience of
the learners but to begin from this point, a travel which is connected with the concept
presented by the great pedagogy of Vygotsky, of the proximal knowledge we have to
develop in the learners. Because if we stay, and we always remain on the level familiar to
the learner, we do not develop an itinerary of emancipation, a good education in music, but
in general, is something which emancipates the learner. So, you have to build through the
knowledge, through an attentive work done in class, in cooperative learning with the other
learners, you have to build a group of people growing in knowledge, in sensibility. And so I
think that it must be done through methods starting from the listening, and integrate
progressively different music, and the listening to other cultures and dimensions.
Jabari Mahiri 22:59
So as a professor and teacher myself, and as someone who believes that you try to build on
the background and experiences of youth, I personally have been conflicted when some of
those experiences go against my own sensibilities. And I'll give you one example, and this
will be our last question, and I'll just see where you go with it, because you're a pedagogue
also, and you're using Vygotsky. And Vygotsky is basically arguing that a learner who has
access to an expert in the field will move along the zone of proximal development much
faster than they would on their own. Yes, but I want to use an example from hip-hop
culture, and I want to use a song that's called “I Got Five On It”. And the notion of the expert
in this sense would be the hip-hop artist, him or herself. They're much more expert than
me as a teacher of this genre. And yet, if I were to bring this highly, you know, accepted
song into the classroom as a way of indexing the background and experiences of these
youth. The song about “I Got Five On It” is really “I got five on” a certain kind of reefer or
drug. I got $5 on it so that we can purchase it together and enjoy it together. So how do we
deal with these controversial issues that may actually represent the authentic interests and
in some cases, values of youth? When we as the pedagogues, we as the didactics, actually
might have problems with the values that that content is revealing.


Raffaele Pozzi 24:53
Yes, well, I think that it's possible to try to find a solution for that contradiction, because,
say, if you demonstrate the learners that you put in serious consideration is his or her
values and then you show that the world is, probably, is, well, it's, it's probably something
which goes beyond the limit of this experience, and there are many others things in culture
and musical term to discover, I think that you are on the right way, on the way to have a
well-round and open-minded education.
Jabari Mahiri 26:05
Professor Pozzi, is there anything else that you'd like to share with us before we close our
conversation today, things that we didn't touch on, that you're excited about, a little bit
about your mission here in the United States, relative to trying to invoke more international
cooperation between universities, whatever it is you want us to know as you close this
podcast.
Raffaele Pozzi 26:27
Yes, well, I'm here. I am here just to follow the advice I gave to the educators. [Laughs] So I
am here in exploration, and I am here to try to have a sort of prolongation of the Golden
Gate from San Francisco to Europe to Roma. So I'm sure that we are...
Jabari Mahiri 26:59
We might say the Bay Bridge here, because we’re more connected to the Bay Bridge than
the Golden Gate. [Laughs]
Raffaele Pozzi 27:09
[Laughs] Anyway, I'm joking, of course. I think that from the exchange, from the
confrontation, we have a constant renewal and opening of our perspectives. And this is
important for music education, but this is important for education in general.
Jabari Mahiri 27:36
Professor Raffaele Pozzi, you said that your name is also connected to the word pizza in
some way. [Pozzi laughs] Well, we have had a feast of ideas today, and we look forward to
our further interactions with you as you complete your visit in the United States and in
California.
Brianna Luna 28:05
Thank you for listening to Equity Leadership Now!.


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