Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 4 ‘Suicide rate is so high in the Construction Industry’ Mental Health, Neurodiversity, Innovation with Dan MacPherson

• Darren Evans • Episode 4

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On this episode of "Thrive in Construction," we explore Dan McPherson’s unique journey from an apprentice to an executive director in the construction industry, without having gone to university.

Dan shares his personal experiences, addressing critical topics like mental health, the value of communication, and how he navigated the challenges and opportunities in his career. This episode is not just about building structures; it's about building life skills, breaking industry myths, and the importance of understanding and adapting to changes in the workplace. 

It’s a conversation that reveals the diverse paths to success in construction and the
importance of personal growth. Dan's insights are sure to inspire and educate. Tune in for an episode that challenges conventional wisdom and opens up a world of possibilities in the construction sector.

Timeline
[00:05] - Introduction to Dan McPherson's background and career in construction.
[06:42] - Discussing the impact of mental health in the construction industry.
[12:20] - Dan's journey of self-discovery and dealing with personal challenges.
[16:50] - The importance of kindness and resilience in life.
[21:39] - Insights into thriving in the construction industry.
[27:15] - Debunking common myths and misconceptions about construction careers.
[31:47] - The role of communication and collaboration in the industry.
[37:11] - Exploring the effects of AI and technology in construction.
[41:55] - The significance of adapting to change and embracing innovation.
[47:05 - Dan's vision for the future of the construction industry.


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Follow Dan:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-macpherson-mrics-5114393b/

Get in Touch:  Jonah.balmford@henryriley.com

Henry Riley: https://www.henryriley.com/our-services/advisory-services/




Follow Me: https://darrenevans.komi.io

Dan Macpherson:

I'm a chartered quantity surveyor, work for a company called Hemmy Riley. I'm executive director at the company, been there more or less since I was born, starting out my apprenticeship. So what was life for you? So it was interesting. It was a mixed bag. It's certainly something that, as you allude to there, I think it definitely shaped me in my career. With mental health being such a hot topic and rightly so in the construction industry at the moment, two people every day taking their own lives in the construction world. It's a horrible statistic. When my wife approached me one day and talk about life generally dropped into conversation quite casually that I might have ADHD.

Darren Evans:

What specific advice would you give the younger version of you in terms of hope for the future?

Dan Macpherson:

Be kind head down. Life will throw shits at your way and it's just dealing with it in the right way. In the right environment anyone can thrive, but I think AI is gonna. You know, you either adopt or you fall behind. The myth I would like to bust, and I think it's something that absolutely needs to be employed more and more within the industry.

Darren Evans:

Hi and welcome to this episode of Thrive and Construction with me, darren Evans, today's guest. We've got Dan McPherson with us. Dan, thanks for coming along.

Dan Macpherson:

Very welcome, glad to be here Now, really genuinely glad to be here. We don't get on too much opportunity to catch up these days only by the telephone, Usually on business related matters. So it's nice just to have a bit of time to, yeah, talk about some of the personal stuff and what's going on outside of the world of work beforehand. So, yeah, good to be here.

Darren Evans:

Good thanks, dan. So for those people that are watching and listening, can you just briefly outline what it is that you do and who you work for?

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, I'm a chartered quantity surveyor, work for a company called Henry Riley. I'm executive director at the company, been there more or less since I was born, starting out my apprenticeship, and so we are a predominantly in the UK, a project management and quantity surveying firm, but then very much more built environment services now as well, kind of reaching far beyond the quantity surveying and project management world.

Darren Evans:

So things like dispute resolution, expert wisdom, this type of roles as well, yeah, and you said you've been there for a long time, from kind of days away in your career.

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, and since being an apprentice. So yeah, left sixth form college when I was a fresh faced 18 year old and, yeah, I didn't really know what I wanted to do in life, like a lot of people don't. I met my now wife when I was 16 years old, at secondary school. So for that reason predominantly, I just ruled out university full time. So I wanted to explore my options and really stumbled across quantity surveying, given it was in the construction industry, which, out of any industry, I was probably most interested in.

Darren Evans:

When did you realize that then in your life, because that's really unusual, that people not just stay in the company for a significant period of time. So you've been there for more than eight years Normally people get to about eight years and then they shift but what was it? Well, when did you discover? Actually, I think construction is probably the one for me.

Dan Macpherson:

So it's something my wife and I have discussed before because I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think it probably does link back to the fact I spent a lot of time when I was younger with my granddad in a village close by to where I grew up, and he was a carpenter by trade. So, long story short, went into the RAF, came out of the RAF quite quickly in the Second World War because he contracted tuberculosis, went to a local hospital to Cambridge which is I lived just outside of Cambridge for the open air therapy to treat it and fortunately he got to a point where he could start to learn a skill and a trace. So he went into carpentry and then he did that all his life at a local firm called Ratian Kett, working on Cambridge Colleges, Winter Castle after the fire, and so always remember vividly going into the wood workshop and the smell of his workshop and all the tools spread out, and he'd always take me in there when I used to go and visit and I think that's probably where the spark came.

Darren Evans:

To be honest, yeah, it sounds like he was really skilled then if he worked on Windsor Castle after that had a fire.

Dan Macpherson:

Very much so. Yeah, it's very, very impressive stuff. And all the hundreds of chisels all laid out, all for a certain purpose and certain job.

Darren Evans:

So would he make stuff for you and the family then, as you know, I'm thinking chairs, rocking horses, those types of things.

Dan Macpherson:

I think he did, but you don't remember. I can't remember and I didn't. I'm sorry I haven't got any of it. It was huge just having a bit of a go on the power tools and the chisels, to be honest. It was good, before then heading into the garden for a rep for his putting.

Darren Evans:

My grandfather was very good at woodwork and very good at steelwork as well, and I remember as a child being similarly impressed, yeah, especially with like, I've got a drill. You know, as a young six year old boy or a five year old boy, I remember him letting me use a power drill for the first time and I honestly felt like the most powerful person in the world.

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, it's interesting, actually as well, is that? What kind of probably does make it more likely that my granddad led to my interest, that initial spark in construction? We actually, Katie and the boys we went over to Wales to spread my granddad's ashes. He died at the year in a cemetery just outside Cardiff. So I met some family that I'd not met for well since I was nine, 10 years old. There was one of my relatives she is must be about 65 now she actually was one of the first women in Cardiff to go into teaching DT DT is in design technology, Design technology in a school and then another relative on that side of the family. He actually was a sheet metal worker as well, and they both say that they remember vividly. I think they called him Uncle George coming over or him visiting over in Cardiff and talking about construction, so it maybe had an influence on a few people in the family, it's interesting, isn't it, how we can be influenced from those early childhood interactions with family members.

Darren Evans:

Absolutely, talk to me about your childhood. What was life like growing up for you? What was home like?

Dan Macpherson:

So it was interesting. It's a mixed bag. It's certainly something that, as you alluded to there, I think it definitely shaped me in my career. It's teed me up to take advantage of a number of skills I've probably learned along the way From my mom being in and out of a hospital with mental health issues when she was a teenager. It was kind of quite severe self-harming, told you she'd never have kids, which clearly she ended up doing, and she met my dad relatively young, but then, even through their marriage and into having me and my brother, she was in and out of hospital quite a lot. So hence then going back to granddad.

Darren Evans:

So this sounds like Going to his house a lot so with your mom, then it sounds a lot deeper than kind of a low level anxiety when you talk about mental health issues If she was in and out of hospital. Is that what you're saying?

Dan Macpherson:

Yep, absolutely so. She's now been diagnosed with schizophrenia. She was suffering manic depression in her darkest times. Yeah, is this in her teenage years or was this when she Well mixed? Yeah, so it's continued throughout her life. Okay, and yeah, being in and around that, with mental health being such a hot topic and rightly so in the construction industry at the moment, with two people every day taking their own lives in the construction world, it's a horrible statistic and there is some really, really good work being done in the industry.

Darren Evans:

But that's now, though, isn't it? That is now, that's what's happening now, but obviously back when your mom was a teenager. Absolutely, that must have been.

Dan Macpherson:

Support wasn't there, it was electroshock therapy when that was a thing. Why the original horrible kind of electroshock therapy? And it was, yeah, it couldn't have been nice at all. But having having had that and been in and around that in my childhood and through my teenage years, off to left-home relatively young at 18, because I met my wife at 16. So he kind of started rencing and bought her in place, had a family, etc. It's remarkable how much, when you take time to think about it, how many of those experiences has shaped who I am, my management style, leadership style, how I can help people and have helped people in my career, and that's all manner of people. That's not just internally within Henry Riley, that's having conversations more and more frequently so with lots of different people, and that's more recently, because of it being a hot topic, talking with clients, contractors, who all have their going on, quite simply.

Darren Evans:

So, Dan, well, you've touched that. I just want to go into these things in a little bit more detail, because it feels as though you've spilled out loads and loads of things here that we can just go down because, like we've already said back in, what would it have been for your mum?

Dan Macpherson:

70s, yeah, 60s 70s.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, the mental health was dealt with in a completely different way than what it is now. And even I remember in Bristol there was a place in Bristol it's called Glenside Hospital and that was the place and in terms that were used back then, was where you put all the psycho people and that was the phrase that was used back then and they were almost locked away and just dealt with outside of society.

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've only heard snippets. You know the term psycho, you know the mental hospital. They've obviously called different things. Now that you're similar thing. It was a full-born hospital just outside Cambridge and not a nice place to be. So I think she was sectioned once or twice as well.

Darren Evans:

So it sounds like your mum's, got a huge amount of resilience then in order to be able to have all of these immense struggles at that particular time in the world's history of how they dealt with people with those types of struggles, and then gets to a point where she meets somebody, gets married and then has children.

Dan Macpherson:

Absolutely, there's resilience on both parts, both mum and dad. You know, for dad to have young kids holding down a job throughout the mum's troubles. Obviously he's got his own shit as well, like we all do. And yeah, they've both shown great, great resilience and loyalty to one another as well in their time. So at what age were?

Darren Evans:

you when you, when you realise and understood the things that your mum struggled with and how not necessarily deeply understood what she struggled with, but how that impacted the relationship that you have with her or the relationship that she has with your dad. When did you become aware?

Dan Macpherson:

Last week. It's been more than that. It was a couple of years ago. You reached a point in life where we've got kids. Our kids are eight and five and it was actually during Covid that probably it hit home. When my wife approached me one day to talk about life generally, dropped into conversation quite casually that I might have ADHD, and so that when you start looking into the world of ADHD, it opens up the brain. It's not just there's a stigma, I think, and an idea that people have about ADHD as a disorder. It's hyperactivity, it's distracted. One of my go-to books that I always recommend is Anything Surrounding ADHD, because it just everyone has got their again, everyone's got their shit, everyone's got their ways, everyone's got something that's maybe a trigger to them, whether nature or nurture. And so, yeah, understanding more and more about that in the last couple of years has really made me reflect actually on the people around me family, friends, colleagues. It's been fascinating really has been. So, yeah, it's been the last couple of years that it's really hit home.

Darren Evans:

And so this discovery of ADHD and the link between your mum and your mental health, that was all made over the Covid period, if I understood that right. Absolutely, and how did your wife even kind of come to you? She came to you one day. Do you know, Dan? I think you've got ADHD, Hmm.

Dan Macpherson:

I think I have, yeah, yeah, my wife's an amazing woman, very, very empathic, very switched on to feelings and mental health and the brain, and she's she's in her life experienced lots of different people who are neurodiverse and you know, her brother, for example, has caught Asperger's syndrome.

Dan Macpherson:

Her brother, her brother, yeah.

Dan Macpherson:

And so she was again similar to me, but in a in from a neurodiverse perspective, been brought up with being surrounded by people who are neurodiverse or have met mental health issues as I have, so that just you learn so much without realizing it. And it's just really hit home the last few years with the pressure that I think Covid put on a lot of people and it was simply the fact that I was sat on my desk, loving, loving, being able to work sort of nine, nine, 10 hours and not having to commute and making the most of of working as sad as that sounds, but it was the fact that it was. You know, I was able to entrench myself in trench, sorry, myself in in work, and I suppose it was is also probably an element of just cracking on with, you know, ignoring or blocking out or whatever the what was going on in the world, but then also having that good work, life balance of being, you know, enjoying that time with the kids and Katie as well. So we were locked down for such a so long.

Darren Evans:

So it seems as though, then, what has happened is that Katie, your wife has identified something in you that maybe didn't stand out as much over the Covid period, because life changed significantly. And then she came and then said, okay, I've recognized some things and her understanding and other life experience that she's had helped them to kind of attach certain behaviors to ADHD.

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah. So she had an inkling from, as I say, being surrounded by neurodiverse people, again, you know family, work, people, generally friends. For her, very, very obvious that, yeah, it's likely that that I've got it. And one thing that I decided on, we decided on, was that actually the diagnosis isn't really about me, it's not about Katie. Whilst it will help our relationship, it's about being able to talk, having the label in inverted commas, to try and help people again, both in family, friendship groups and in the industry, where this horrific statistic of suicidal rates exists. So, yeah, that's, that's all interlinked. Already interesting how the construction piece mental health piece, the neurodiverse piece, all very, very much plays a part, a factually fundamental part, of my working life.

Darren Evans:

So my son has ADHD, or that label has been given him, and we discovered this as his parents when he was coming out of year five in school and going into year six. He was consistently in inverted commas, getting into trouble. But he was known at school as the lovable rogue. Stereotypical stuff Sounds familiar, I heard. Is that where you had at school?

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, my youngest is exactly the same as well. So he he was actually. We were pulled aside a few weeks ago by the teacher just say, look, might want to get the SCMD, just insert, to come and observe James, my youngest kid, who is a lovable rogue and it's, it's fascinating. Again, you take it where it is very, very valid and important, I think, for kids as young as possible to get the diagnosis, because if you take a child with ADHD and put them in an environment where they will thrive, that kind of just subtle changes sometimes, sometimes more significant changes, they will thrive in an environment that is is not conducive, it's restrictive. They will struggle and they will stick out like a sore thumb, which which James has the tendency to do. But yeah, really really interesting, really fascinating at both ends of the spectrum in terms of age and diagnosis.

Darren Evans:

So if you know, thinking back to 15, 16 year old Dan, what, what advice would you give him or what would you say to him about how you view the world?

Dan Macpherson:

or you viewed the world back then, from your experience now, I think, naturally, with age, you, you learn, but I was very, very set in my trail of thought and my approach to life, which was kind of validated by by my wife as well. It's kind of part of the reason we, we came together and have succeeded in a very happy marriage. No doubt there's always times, isn't there Any marriage, that you're ups and downs. But yeah, we, we met young. We had the same ideas of life, the same values, and we had the same of what we wanted out of life, which was ultimately to be happy. That should be number one to be happy and have a great set of people around you that you can love and care for. And it's gone basically according to plan.

Dan Macpherson:

At the time there are people saying you know you've done too much too soon. You know, go off to university or you're settling down young, and you know you're making a mistake and and we just ignored it we were very headstrong together, very headstrong. So yeah, there's obviously things you'd make tweaks on, I think, but nothing, nothing spectacular or too major, which I think we're very fortunate to be in that position. Where we can, we can think like that. That's good. But what?

Darren Evans:

what specific advice would you give the younger version of you in terms of hope for the future? Would you say it's okay, it's all going to be, it's all going to be great, or would there be? Would there be some other piece of advice that you would give 15, 16 year old Dan?

Dan Macpherson:

Be kind is a big one, Right. Be kind Head down. Life will throw shits your way and it's just dealing with it in the right way. And when I say the right way, using people to talk, to use your true friends for your network, use your true family, if that makes sense.

Darren Evans:

Definitely. So. These are the people that really have got your back, that really are there with you for the good things and for the bad things, and the ones that will just show up when you just have a really difficult day and just be with you.

Dan Macpherson:

And 16, 18 year olds. That's a difficult, difficult stage of life because you know you tend to be attracted and hang around with your friendship group that maybe you've had from primary school, secondary school, but they might not necessarily be your guys and your girls. You kind of find it when you probably are 18 plus. There's some people you know. I've got a neighbor who's a best friend. He's known he's one of his best friends since they were in primary school age and they've retained that bond and that really great friendship. But yeah, just if the people haven't got your back, it's kind of bad just to ditch them sooner rather than later, quite simply, and having the balls to do that and I was going to have to do that.

Dan Macpherson:

To a degree, you kind of find out who your real friends are when you're going out to hang out with your future misses rather than going out on the lash with the lads.

Darren Evans:

And so now your boys aren't quite teenagers. But I'm wondering for people listening to this or watching this. They might be thinking well, do you know, I think that my son or my daughter has ADHD, or my daughter or my son has ADHD or maybe suffers with mental health or neurodivergent in some way, shape or form. What have you found in your experience that you can share with other people that are struggling to navigate? I mean, being a parent is hard enough as it is. Being a parent and working is even more difficult, and being a parent in this society at the moment, and then having the complexity of neurodiversity Neurodiversity is tricky enough, isn't it? So what advice or what pointers would you give?

Dan Macpherson:

I think, again, coming back to the headstrong point and being very assured in the way me and my wife think, is that we, for our kids and I think that's probably the best example to use is that we've both said, as long as they come out of the education system, happy, we've succeeded. Yeah, absolutely, because when you realize and go back to the point I said earlier about being in the right environment, anyone can thrive. Yes, is that there's so many opportunities in the construction industry alone. Bucket, loads of opportunities. You know things like my youngest. Well, both kids. They play Minecraft, right, they're already designing buildings at the ages of, you know, four and five. They started that, yeah, and so they're the head of the game.

Dan Macpherson:

From that perspective, um, and I think patience is a big part of it.

Dan Macpherson:

Patience, kindness, focus on being happy rather than being the focus on going to university, which I think was certainly the message that the government was portraying when I was going through secondary school. It was always right Sixth form university, that's the route you've got to go, otherwise you'll be a failure. Um, but actually, um, on the flip side, again, one of those things looking back is that I was completely misinformed because at the time, those um friends that were going off to kind of polytechnic type college, uh, to do plumbing, carpentry, being electrician, construction management, is like, oh, why are we doing that? That's a bit strange. They're not going to well, they're not going to succeed in life. And lo and behold, you know they're, they're amongst the most successful, and um it from a, from a pure kind of financial perspective and the ability to earn Um.

Dan Macpherson:

But then there are these inherent issues which, I say again, especially amongst the trades with mental health issues, um, which I think, going back coming full circle to ADHD, is that you know, if you are have ADHD in the wrong environment, where you're not going to thrive, you will stick out, you'll be disruptive, maybe you won't learn as well or as quickly, and so you get kind of you know, pushed into a corner and guided down a certain path which was at that time to go to um, to go to college, not sixth form Um, and so actually, with ADHD, um, that one of the stats is you're five times more likely to um encounter suicidal thoughts.

Dan Macpherson:

So you take that and the peaks and troughs with with mood and um happiness and sadness, you kind of you put the two and two together. It's not for me, um, there's something in it, um as to why the uh, the suicide rate is so high in the in the construction industry and which is why, yeah, obviously keen to talk about it more and more, um, to try and to try and help people and as much as we can. So talking about it is a big part of it. Just talking and being comfortable in talking about it is a game changer. Those conversations I've had recently with with certain clients I'm close to, um contractors, even some subcontractors, um consultants, it kind of every, every part of the world of work um in which I operate.

Darren Evans:

It's in everything, it's in everything. Yeah, we're all people, yeah, yeah, well, there's people, there's that. I really love the thing that you said, um, at the start of um, your advice, where you said it's about a child coming out of the educational system feeling happy and feeling, um, connected. You didn't say this, but connected, included, and having a sense of self worth and and believe because I think that you're exactly right is, when, going back again to the experiences that you've had with your grandfather, it sounds like you were connected with him, and so that's one of the things that helped you to learn or to understand or be interested.

Dan Macpherson:

What he was interested in is that there was an emotional connection that then led to learning, which led to joy or fun or connection, and those elements need to come together 100%, Absolutely, and again feel very fortunate that somehow it's all come together very, very nicely, Um, but again going back to the conversation piece, is there was only talking about the education system as well and how to try and navigate that with with children generally? Um, is that again just being comfortable and and semi informed about kind of neurodiversity? Is that? There's a comment? I don't remember how it came up, it was very simple, off the cuff kind of comment with a um, with a client at social couple weeks ago we got chatting, long story short Um, she's. She was saying her child, who's five same age as my, my youngest, is constantly saying that she was stupid and I'm so stupid, I'm so stupid.

Darren Evans:

James, the child was beating herself up saying James, we're working on him.

Dan Macpherson:

Now he's saying it less, he's still saying it every now and again. We've worked on him. Just that constant reinforcement You're not stupid, you're a lovely boy, you're. You're clever, you're kind, um, you're intelligent, you know, you're such a wonderful kid. And that constant reinforcement and that patience in doing so, um, but then that led on to you know, apparently her dad was um, had ADHD, and then um, yeah, it's, it's incredible with the conversations, where, where conversations can lead, and that's so many people are affected, some knowing it and some without knowing it. I'm sure there's many, many more people are affected by um, by neurodiverse, uh, by neurodiversity than than than are aware.

Darren Evans:

Just one quick thing have you heard of a guy called Gabor Mate before I haven't?

Dan Macpherson:

mentioned and I'm sure in the past, but not come across them.

Darren Evans:

So Gabor Mate is a? Uh, a psychologist who has ADHD, Um, and he also has dyslexia. He has studied ADHD, Um, and so his theory is that it's connected. Adhd is connected to trauma in some way, shape or form, Um, and ADHD is also passed on Generational, generational, generational. So it's not a? Um a physiological or a biological issue, that it's a coping mechanism, um to be able to deal with something that wasn't understood correctly in in the past.

Darren Evans:

In the past, and that can go back many generations, exactly right, and so so parents pass it on to children, who pass it on to their children, and so on and so on.

Darren Evans:

And I think that it's really interesting, for me at least, when I look at things, and I um, look at things like the, the second world war, maybe the first world war, and the trauma that these men and women had as a result of those wars then got passed on to those, to their children, who got passed on to their children, and so I think, to me it seems as though we're unraveling things and finding out things that that happened back in the thirties, forties, fifties, um, people really suffered, it seemed, in seventies, eighties, potentially not as much in the nineties, and what kind of starting to, to to understand things a little bit better now. That's just my theory from listening to people like Gabor Matta and from the experiences that I've had, fascinating but, um, but yeah, I would, I would recommend you um, uh, listening to, or, um, yeah, listening to, his work. I think his work is is fascinating. Yeah, we'll do Sounds good.

Darren Evans:

I think that's really good advice. So, uh, dan, that you've given for for people that are out there specifically around being kind as well and, and also bringing it back to what you mentioned before, which is about that network, who is it? That's your family, so that could be biological family or or sociological family. Um, because it's really really important to have that, to have that network around.

Dan Macpherson:

No, 100%, is you've got to have those people around you with me especially. Problem shared, problem halved. If I haven't got the ability to talk to those close friends, close family members, if I'm not able to talk to Katie because I'm away for a night or two, depending on the timing, that can be really tough. So having those people around you is so important, certainly for me.

Darren Evans:

So how does that show up for you, then, in your current role? Because you, as a leader of your organisation, you've got the opportunity to make changes, to have impact.

Dan Macpherson:

Absolutely. It's a really, really exciting place to be, which is going back to an earlier question. The reason I've stuck around for so long is a great organisation with great people and culture. This isn't a sales pitch. This is genuinely from the heart, and we're always looking to do the right thing, and if there's something we need to change, we've always got that on the horizon in terms of horizon scanning for what we need to do and what we can implement for the good of our people. Quite simply and that covers not just neurodiversity but a number of different things as the world of work changes and evolves, and so being in a company that is in tune with that and completely open to discussing and reviewing anything to implement positive change to help our people is what we're all about.

Darren Evans:

So what's gone on recently then that you can say, actually, this is positive change that we've done as an organisation and this is maybe the impact that we hope to have. Is there anything that comes to mind?

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, well, I think so from a again just personal perspective.

Dan Macpherson:

It's always having the ability and autonomy to go out and talk to people.

Dan Macpherson:

So I was with a colleague, maya, a few weeks ago a UK construction week where she was on stage chairing a panel discussion about the future of construction. She's a young woman in the world of quantity surveying and project management. She works with me in our Cambridge office and it was just incredible to see her chairing a panel of equally impressive women talking about what the future of construction looks like for her as a young woman, but also for her as a quantity surveyor and for the other people that also work in the construction industry. And so there was ideas that came from that panel discussion that we've taken away as a business and we are exploring on implementing change just to again make sure we're supporting people properly. No one person has all the answers, but what you can do is have a lot of discussions and be open and make it very, very clear the ideas and thoughts, and that collaboration internally and externally are completely encouraged to try and always ensure that you're always on the front foot when it comes to positive change.

Darren Evans:

That's one of the things that I really firmly believe in is that no one person has a monopoly on good ideas or a good way forward or the best way forward. And so I've got the thing in my business where we will speak as a company. We're quite small, we've only got 19 people, no one the other sizes of yourself. So it's quite easy practically for us to do that, but just to use it as a bit of a working group to say, look, we're going to go off in this direction, this is what we're doing. This is why we think that's the case. Let's talk about this and we'll speak about it.

Darren Evans:

Sometimes it will be for minutes and sometimes it will be for longer, but I think it's really important to give enough airtime for me to understand what it is that the person is trying to either convey or say, even though maybe it will come across negatively just from the off. You need to understand, okay, what's behind this, what's the fear, what's driving this, what's the thing? To make sure that I understand, as a leader of my organization, everybody's viewpoints, but within the right context, because I think sometimes it's easy for leaders to understand someone's viewpoint, but in the wrong context it could take you off in a wrong direction.

Dan Macpherson:

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's having those forums all levels, all ages, all genders, all races, all religions, you know, to be able to have a safe environment to discuss and understanding sometimes what those safe environments look like. You know can be tricky, but it's trying to always do the right thing. I'll fall back to that phrase trying to do the right thing. You can't really go wrong, but it's important. Yeah, things like shadow boards and we have a women's leadership group. Okay, so we're now up to 800. Yeah, and that's predominantly UK, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Okay.

Darren Evans:

So not just the UK company cross the world. Yep, absolutely Anything in US? No, not yet. Not at the moment, maybe soon, maybe soon. So what is the thing now that you're doing within your organization that supports or positively affects Net Zero or the move to Net Zero? How do you address the climate crisis in your organization?

Dan Macpherson:

Well, so really really hot topic, something I'm really enthusiastic and passionate about no pun intended. No pun intended.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, hot topic.

Dan Macpherson:

No, not untenable. So as part of our partnership recent partnership with TSA we so TSA, are Australian part of our business and the footprint company. So we've gone through this about six months ago, entered into this partnership with these organisations and we now have a really really exciting wider, bigger and better group of people whereby, on the net, zero carbon piece. Specifically, we've just recently launched our carbon advisory services, which was part of the partnerships I said earlier. We've now got the footprint company who have.

Dan Macpherson:

So Carolyn Dr Carolyn Nuller set up that company and has been involved in in the creation of certain sustainability standards, such as lead and neighbours that will be familiar to, I'm sure, many people in the industry and has produced a trademarked piece of software called the footprint calculator, which is one of only two pieces of software globally that's aligned to the RICS's ICMS3 measurement standards. So when part Z comes in, the anticipation is that when there's a mandatory requirement to report on carbon, that it will have to be aligned with ICMS3. And so we're in a very fortunate position where we own the software that can spit out what the actual whole life carbon of a project is. And there's software out there that you know in crude terms linking it back to the world of quantity surveying is that you don't, you know, measure 60% of a building when you're producing a cost plan. You measure everything you know. You measure your preliminaries, external works, open profit services, stats fees, which all do attract embodied carbon.

Darren Evans:

There's carbon attached to all those things, and so so this software accounts for everything, then it accounts for everything and we can feed the machine, so we employ. Does it give recommendations or does it just Absolutely?

Dan Macpherson:

It gives recommendations for Because we own the software. It's amazing because you can feed in new materials into the green book, which is the other part of the footprint company software offering. So it's effectively a book of materials and they're associated with embodied carbon which have been properly analyzed by data scientists who will properly calculate the embodied carbon, no matter what the EPD says it might have in it. There's a verification process that goes on there and it will be fed in. It will be measured, so quantity surveyors ideally place to properly measure buildings, as we do when we're taking off quantities for cost estimating and cost planning. And it comes up with all sorts of amazing and interesting information on how to reduce what are the key areas that have the highest embodied carbon. Now we can go top five, top 10. And so we have our software engineers as well, who can adapt to suit certain requirements without, but whilst always being aligned to ICMS3, which is the key and fundamental piece when part of Z comes in anticipates to be next year.

Darren Evans:

So I can hear people now just kind of screaming out loud is this for sale? Why have I not heard about it? Is it maybe a little bit of envy there? Is this just for Henry Riley, this piece of software?

Dan Macpherson:

So we're in the process now of effectively not having enough bodies on the ground to be able to go and shout about it. It's a game changer for not just ourselves, obviously from a selfish perspective, and being able to go and advise clients. But when I say clients here, this is everyone in the industry now. So we're talking to architects and structural engineers, contractors, subcontractors, clients, manufacturers of building components, such as modular manufacturers and panelized manufacturers. We're even talking to sort of quite nuanced and bespoke system manufacturers, which is that inquiry came in just last week. They want to. They've got a couple of completed buildings with their anticipated to be low carbon system. It hasn't been measured in the world ever because it is their own trademarked structural system and so they approached you to say look, we've got something we think is a game changer.

Darren Evans:

Can we use your software to?

Dan Macpherson:

Absolutely, because they see the value in being able to say we have measured Our system using this software that is aligned to the proper standards.

Darren Evans:

And that alignment, I think, is really, really important because it seems like the world west at the moment when it comes to embodied carbon.

Dan Macpherson:

That's the phrase I keep using. Oh, is it the same phrase? The world west went out there. It's absolutely bonkers.

Darren Evans:

What do you want the computer to tell you? Yeah, and we can do it. Use the word before manipulation. You can manipulate this and manipulate that, and I think that the way that you're describing manipulation is more to do with understanding how to get to the best result that's accurate, as opposed to how do I manipulate the system to give me the answer that I want? So I look good.

Dan Macpherson:

Absolutely, and that's what we often find with other pieces of software is that you know, taking the example of a window, the alternate pieces of software will measure just the glass of the window.

Dan Macpherson:

It doesn't consider the casement of the seals, it's the gas, the aluminium from China, it just accounts for the glass. And so actually you know you're on it through the software in a proper way that's aligned to the international measurement standards that the RSCS have produced. The embodied carbon is higher. But when we come to Letty and is the great thing because we're going to own and can manage the software we're going to we're just at the moment, during the process with our software engineers, to click a button whereby you can then that Letty button will tell you what the Letty standard of measurement will tell you, which is lower compared to what the footprint calculator will tell you. So you've still got those comparisons there which are valid, because we want to push things forward. We don't want to be a barrier. We want to absolutely enable and arm and equip everyone in the industry to start understanding what this embodied carbon and whole life carbon is all about.

Darren Evans:

That's a great bit of software. That's a great bit Really exciting. Yeah, it's exciting times, so so who keeps the software or your company honest?

Dan Macpherson:

That's a question I don't know the answer to Darren. I don't know, in all honesty, because it's an internationally recognised standard, because there's the lack of experience and expertise globally In terms of measurement of carbon, the RSCS have clearly produced the ICMS3 measurement standard.

Dan Macpherson:

But in terms of the verification of if you know people are doing it properly, we are. We are having discussions and I can't say too much, but we are effectively at the moment having discussions with with different organisations about being the auditor. So when Part Z comes in, and even before that, because we have got the expertise within the company that we would go in as an auditing role rather than actually doing the calculations. So, yeah, early days, but some really exciting conversations.

Darren Evans:

So that's so. That's really exciting, then, that that is coming out. And what's your just out of interest, my personal interest what's your model for reselling this? Are you going directly to those clients or are you having someone that's in charge of selling this software within territories that you're then charging to go out, or encouraging them to go out?

Dan Macpherson:

And you just reminded me what the point I just forgot was. So the footprint calculator it doesn't need us to actually plug in the numbers. Part of our service is to go into organisations, contractors, for example, when it gets very complex and probably too much for a morning conversation. But when it comes to actually contractual arrangements is that under design and build, lots of clients will want the contractor to take on the responsibility to report on Part Z, so responsibility for ticking the box of Part Z, and so what we will do and can do, we can either do it for contractors, clients, whoever, or we can actually train customers in how to use the software and there'll be a validation piece to do that, so you know yourselves again could be trained up in the users that software and so that when the time comes you know you can go into advising clients knowing you're using the software that's legit and in the right way.

Darren Evans:

And in the right way? Absolutely, and so do you know if this is probably a tricky question here. But do you know if AI is going to be involved in this software any way, shape or form?

Dan Macpherson:

It's got to be, I think, in the future. I think AI is going to. You know you either adopt or you fall behind, I think, and again, adopting in the right way. But I think certainly the limited amount I know about AI and my limited use of chat GBT already it's. It's got to form part of the future. But there's a whole regulation piece.

Dan Macpherson:

Clearly there's a very good kind of digress now, but there's a very good presentation undertaken by a fire engineering and building control consultancy as part of a CBD the other day and there was a photo and he said what's wrong with the photo? And it was of a decking outside of a house. There was some railing missing and so you know what's wrong with the photo. Well, they've, they've actually AI'd the, the railing around the decking. It's not actually physically there If you were to go and inspect that site. So it's interesting and lots of considerations. I thought that was a good analogy for where you know you've got to the role of on site, site inspections and more traditional procurement methods. I think, with you know, with AI, with building safety, with embodied carbon, the role of on site presence and inspections of various different professionals within the industry will start to play a much greater part again in in what we're seeing.

Darren Evans:

Dan, I think now we're at the time where we can go and talk about myths and debunk them on this podcast. We call it the demolition zone.

Dan Macpherson:

Right Love the demolition zone. Are you ready, ready, let's do it.

Darren Evans:

OK, well, Dan, you have created a very lean and extremely tall tower here as a representation of this myth that you want to destroy. Talk to us about the myth. What is it? What does this represent?

Dan Macpherson:

Well, I would like to start by crediting the tower. Yeah, as I was building it, I was thinking that this is exactly what my youngest son does in Minecraft he builds the tallest possible tower he can, which is 320 blocks high, and then he swipes out the bottom block and just watches it tumbling down.

Darren Evans:

So yeah, he's your inspiration as.

Dan Macpherson:

I said earlier, he's a little mini me, so clearly, when it comes to building blocks and demolishing them, we're exactly the same as well, well, let's hope that you show this to him when this comes out.

Darren Evans:

But what does this represent, dan?

Dan Macpherson:

Right. So the myth I would like to bust and I think it's something that absolutely needs to be employed more and more within the industry. It's been pretty good while I've been in the industry, but it's about communication, collaboration and sitting around a table and discussing issues and problems Sometimes contractual, sometimes practical, relating to delays or money or whatever it might be and just getting in the room more with people. I think COVID has had the potential to move away from the very, very good progress I think a lot of organizations and pockets of the industry had made, because we're back on teams again for the majority of the time.

Dan Macpherson:

But the value, both pre-contract and post-contract in our industry of getting around the table with whoever you're working with designers, subcontractors, contractors, clients, whatever is so important and communicate and talk. Don't bash over the head and act in an authoritarian or dictatorial way. You want to get the best out of people, work with them, try and understand them. Yes, everyone's got their own interests to work towards and get out of a project. But yeah, I'd like to just bust that myth. Myth that bust of yeah, just that standoffish death by email approach to resolving disputes and issues within the industry.

Darren Evans:

So the best way of resolving issues is coming together in person, having open conversations and connecting with people. Summed up perfectly Wonderful Love it.

Dan Macpherson:

You can now destroy this myth and I'm going to do it how my son would do it. There we go.

Darren Evans:

Loved it that bottom brick and the rest of the tower came tumbling down.

Dan Macpherson:

I will tidy up, thanks. Thank you very much, Dan.

Darren Evans:

it's been great having you here on the podcast. I really appreciate your time and coming in. It's great to listen to your wisdom, your experience.

Dan Macpherson:

That's very kind and, yeah, it has been genuinely good to take some time out and have a discussion like this. Hopefully, people will take snippets, little gems, out of the conversation. Yeah, look forward to hopefully hearing it soon.

Darren Evans:

Fantastic. Before we close and we finish, I just wanted to kind of ask you one maybe tricky question. If there was one thing, a piece of advice that you could give to the world that would fundamentally change people's lives, what would that be for the better? Change people's lives for the better. Only a small question, Dan. I said it might be a little bit tricky, but just one thing that you think would fundamentally change people's lives if they did or didn't do this one thing, what would you say?

Dan Macpherson:

Well off the top of my head, giving limited amount of time to think about it. Those simple acts of kindness they can go such a long way and those good mornings, those genuine how I use trying to get a genuine response from people. I think that's absolute game changer.

Darren Evans:

Dan, it's been a pleasure.

Dan Macpherson:

Thanks, Dan Thanks.

Darren Evans:

Hi, thank you very much for watching this podcast.

Darren Evans:

I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it.

Darren Evans:

I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help, and the way that you can help is by sharing the podcast with the people that you know that you think may have a slight interest in, or maybe a deep interest in, the guests and topics that are covered on this podcast.

Darren Evans:

It is all about construction, so that may lead your thinking towards people that are already in the construction industry, but I don't think we necessarily need to be that narrow with the people that we can reach out to. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university but is not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.