Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 6 "'We Need Honest Conversations in Construction' – A Call for Transparency" | Anna Foden

• Darren Evans

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Join me in this enlightening episode of the "Thrive in Construction" podcast where I sit down with Anna Foden, a leading figure in sustainable construction and Head of Sustainability at ISG.

In this episode, Anna shares her unique journey from the world of professional figure skating to becoming a sustainability professional in a major global construction company. Discover how her competitive spirit and ability to embrace change have shaped her approach to sustainable practices within the industry.

Key Highlights:

The importance of integrating sustainability across all stages of construction processes.
Anna's insights on why transparency and early involvement in projects are crucial for achieving sustainability goals.

The role of honest conversations in overcoming industry challenges and misconceptions.
A look into ISG's innovative approaches to sustainability and how they are shaping the future of construction.

Anna's personal experiences and lessons learned from her diverse career journey, providing a fresh perspective on sustainability and leadership.

Anna's call for transparency and her belief in collective responsibility for sustainability are not just thought-provoking but a clarion call for action in the industry. 

This episode is a must-watch for anyone passionate about the future of sustainable construction and the role honest communication plays in it.

Watch now to be inspired and gain valuable insights into making sustainable construction a reality. Remember to like, share, and subscribe for more episodes that delve deep into the heart of sustainable construction.

Timeline:
[00:00:00] Introduction: Welcoming Anna Foden.
[00:01:00] Anna's Role in Sustainability at ISG.
[00:04:00] Challenges in Sustainability and Construction.
[00:07:00] Anna’s Background: From Figure Skating to Architecture.
[00:10:00] The Impact of Personal Experiences on Professional Growth.
[00:15:00] The Importance of Networking and Personal Resilience.
[00:20:00] The Transition from the U.S. to the U.K. in Construction.
[00:25:00] Early Career and Pioneering Projects.
[00:30:00] Cultural Adjustments and Work-Life Balance.
[00:33:00] Debunking Sustainability Myths in Construction.
[00:35:00] Anna's Key Advice for a Sustainable Future in Construction.


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Follow Anna:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-campos-foden-66779b9/

ISG: https://www.isgltd.com/en


Follow Me: https://darrenevans.komi.io

Anna Foden:

I work for ISG. I'm the head of sustainability there. I think one of the things that we need to do more of in construction is Time, is money. I mean, that's the reality, isn't it?

Anna Foden:

In a former life I was a professional figure skater, got real and realized the Olympics were not in my future. Just because you're really good and passionate about something, sometimes you need to learn one to let it go a bit. So I went to architecture school and in my last year realized I didn't want to be an architect. I started in construction right out of uni. There was a really big project that I put my hand up for, actually in our construction company. I'd say a really incredible first job on the CV for a girl in the construction industry, kind of finding her feet. I found myself made redundant, as so many of us did. In the construction industry you have to get back on the horse and just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get on with it. I think one of my hopes is that sustainability now it won't be so niche because everyone's got to get involved.

Darren Evans:

So hi, thank you very much for watching this podcast. I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this Podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help, and the way that you can help is by sharing the podcast with the people that you know that you think may have a slight interest in, or maybe a deep interest in, the guests and topics that are covered on this podcast. It is all about construction, so that may lead your thinking towards people that are already in the construction industry, but I don't think we necessarily need to be that narrow with the people that we can reach out to. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-Levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university, but it's not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together.

Darren Evans:

Thank you for your help. Hello and welcome. We have today on the Thriving Instruction podcast, anna Foden. Anna, it's so good to have you here with us.

Anna Foden:

Thank you. Thank you, darren, it's good to be here.

Darren Evans:

So, just for everybody that's listening and watching what is it that you do? I know that currently you work for ISG, but what is it that you do? What's your specialty?

Anna Foden:

Yeah, so I work for ISG. I'm the head of sustainability there. We're a large construction company so I work across three business units Our high street retail unit, commercial fit out and data center. So I span a range of construction typologies. So we do everything from statutory environmental compliance checks on our jobs.

Darren Evans:

Okay, sorry, let's just rewind here. Yeah, Statutory environmental checks on our jobs. What does that mean?

Anna Foden:

Right. So there are a lot of laws that we have to comply with to make sure that our jobs on the ground aren't polluting or interfering with biodiversity or any you know native species that might be protected or so we have to make sure that we check them regularly so that our, our people on the ground are following the rules and they were doing everything right.

Anna Foden:

We have the right permits. If there is an issue, it has to be reported in the proper way. So that's one part of what we do. Yeah, another part is there's a whole sustainability aspect with implementing sustainability certifications like Bream Lead. Well, so we really do have to help our project teams make sure that that that certification scheme Whichever one it is, or multiple, that those are running smoothly, that the job's getting procured properly in order to make those certifications happen. And then I also help out at the group level implementing ISG's right thing first strategy. So the E strand of that for us is, you know, a really big, deep dive into carbon reductions right now. So that's something that is is really Important to us. Our CEO, thankfully, is really behind it. So we are in the process now of just making sure that that is implemented into every system so that it's not just attack on bolt-on thing for the sustainability team to implement. That we are making sure that it's Integrated into every process that we do.

Anna Foden:

So we're doing a full-scale rehaul Of all of our processes right now to make sure that that those KPIs are implemented in.

Darren Evans:

Wow, sounds pretty involved. It sounds like as well, the whole kind of sustainability in your, in your job title Can be like really really far reaching and a little bit wishy-washy. Would you say that it's that, or is it kind of quite pointed?

Anna Foden:

Um, it's funny you say that, I think in the past perhaps, but, um, and maybe maybe some sustainability professionals feel that, but we at ISG In the past three years a few years have become really focused. There's a few key things that we really Wanted to focus in on. So, um, before we had our right thing. First policy we had a series of four policies in place around social value, environmental compliance, carbon reductions and the circular economy. So we really did focus in on four things there A few years ago, which has really helped be the guiding light of where we're taking our business and it's really helped focus in all of our employees to come along on the journey with us.

Darren Evans:

Where did that, where did that focus come from, then? Who instigated that?

Anna Foden:

and so that came from from our group actually, and I came in as a head of an ISG Probably towards the middle to the end of that process. So our former director helped jump start that and just had a series of workshops with our team and and our statutory board and, just you know, had a good pulse on what was important in the industry to really help us narrow down because, you're right, sustainability Can mean so many different things to so many different people and it depends on the industry, it depends on where you are in the supply chain. You know construction supply chain is vast. So you know we really did focus in Really intensely a few years ago, which has really helped just shape everything. So we don't go off on too many tangents.

Darren Evans:

I find that as well. When I set my company up was back in 2007. Yeah and sustainability was not an overused word at all back then. In fact, it was like a Hardly ever used yeah, yeah but now it's so so used, and I think it feels the same for the phrase net zero as well. I think that that's probably going to go that way also.

Anna Foden:

You are so right. I think one of the challenges we're facing is, you know, we have clients that have incredible intentions around net zero when they come to us, but they don't exactly know what they want.

Anna Foden:

And they don't exactly know what net zero means to them. So one thing that we have just tried to do a much better job on in the past few years is getting in with clients as early as possible to help shape what that means to them and working with the consultants a lot earlier than perhaps we would have five, 10 years ago. Because I think you know in the past we would get handed over a project at the end of Rebus, stage four, and it was onwards and upwards. Everything was designed and construction team just get it done. But now you know contracts have changed, the design process has changed, it's much more integrated. So we do have a real responsibility to bring our construction expertise to the table much earlier and I just it really helps shape budgets and programs and expectations much earlier on.

Darren Evans:

So everyone that I speak to says effectively the same thing, which is we're trying to get involved with clients a lot earlier.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

But lots of them, if not all of them, feel this frustration. I know me and my team do feel that frustration. Is that the same for yourself?

Anna Foden:

In terms of being able to get on earlier, absolutely.

Darren Evans:

Yeah.

Anna Foden:

Yes, you know, we do have some fantastic opportunities to get in earlier. I think we're seeing that more and more now. I think the client landscape is changing in that regard. But yes, there are still loads of projects that come in where we just don't have a great opportunity, especially in the you know, the fit out and high street retail world where the projects are really quick. You know you win a project and you have to be on site in a week stripping out.

Anna Foden:

So sometimes it just isn't the time that you would want to make it a big success.

Darren Evans:

Do you think that that's the blocker? Do you think that's the reason why is because of that lack of organization or the speed that they need to?

Anna Foden:

I think it's one of the blockers, the. You know the intensity of the quick programs is a real challenge. There's so many great things that we would want to be doing if we just had more time and that's just not a reality for some projects and we get that. So we try to do what we can with what we're given a lot of the times. But you know, we have had projects extended in the precon phase because the client is really passionate about making it work. And I think one of the things that we need to do more of in construction is just being really honest and not kind of selling the dream and the tender phase and just saying you know we can do this in this amount of time, but if you just gave us a bit more time, we really could make this work and make it a bit more meaningful to your final outcome, rather than just some tack on, bolt on thing that's just a box ticking exercise.

Darren Evans:

So two things that have kind of piqued my interest in what you said is the first thing is the speed.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Why do you think it is that fast? Why do you think it is so rushed? And does it really need to be that way?

Anna Foden:

That's a really. It's the million pound question, derek.

Darren Evans:

Gosh, if you can solve it for us now, that'd be great yeah it's.

Anna Foden:

You know time is money. I mean, that's the reality, isn't it? Time is money. Construction loans are money. You know, every time, every, the longer you have your loan out, the more you're paying. I mean, it's just the reality of the landscape and you know the economic landscape right now is not very favorable in terms of interest rates, and you know inflation.

Darren Evans:

But there's still lots of money around, though Right now.

Anna Foden:

I appreciate that interest rates have gone up significantly, yeah, but I think anyone that's connected to anyone within finance knows that there are significant funds that are just sat waiting, waiting to be invested, yeah, so I don't think it's a lack of money, that's really yeah, and I wouldn't say that's my area of expertise at all, but I think I think people and investors are really keen to invest in really good projects that are, you know, that that kind of tick all the bells and whistles for sustainability. Those are the kind of projects I think people are willing to invest in, and it tumbles all the way down to things like insurance. Okay, you know I had a really good conversation with an insurance agent at an event, a few weeks ago and it's just all of these bolt on effects.

Anna Foden:

You know the insurance industry is very keen but cautious about what they'll insure. Okay, you know we're talking about things like mass timber and you know it's a whole new world out there. You know we talked about everything from mass timber to buildings that sit vacant, that have higher insurance premiums because no one's there to oversee them, and they have issues that just run on for months instead of getting nipped in the bud in a day or two. So there is a knock on effect to to, you know, inefficient and empty buildings that aren't performing the way they could. So, yeah, no, going back to your original point, I think people do want to invest in really great projects, and whether that means a bit more time on the front end to make them solid, you know, I guess that's up for debate, but in my experience, if we sometimes, when we have a bit more time, I think we get a really good outcome.

Darren Evans:

Good, and you mentioned that there are some clients that you've worked with that are willing to extend the project cycle.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Or the time of the project in order to get things right.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

How far have you seen them extend the time frame? A couple months in the pre-con phase, a couple of months, yeah, which I think is pretty significant if you're talking around a commercial office, fit out you know, a particular project I'm thinking about.

Anna Foden:

So you know, it really just depends on the drivers. For the client, they were willing to splash out a little bit more on the front end to make sure that they got the outcome they needed. And again it depends on who the client's answering to. Which eyeballs are on the client? Are they doing it for a mixed-robe, internal or external reasons? There's all sorts of things that go into this and there's a lot of different drivers. But yeah.

Anna Foden:

I think you know some clients are willing to spend a bit more quality time on the front end to make sure it's right.

Darren Evans:

So let's just rewind a little bit. And you've mentioned that you came into ISG and it sounds like since you've been in the company, there's been significant changes.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Things have happened and you spoke about that focus.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

But let's take it back before that. What were you doing before that? There's some rumor going around that you were a figure skater.

Anna Foden:

You've clicked the down arrow on my LinkedIn page. Yeah, yeah, In a former life I was a professional figure skater.

Anna Foden:

Professional I was yeah, and I did that up until kind of I mixed it with the start of uni and then I, you know, I got real and realized, you know, the Olympics were not in my future. So I carried on in uni and, yeah, I went to architecture school and just kind of moved on with my life but, you know, had a really good foundation of life skills laid in the world of competitive and professional figure skating.

Darren Evans:

So talk to me about figure skating, how you got into it. Yeah, Some of the lessons that you learned from it I guess there's a whole community around that and the connection that you had.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, as you can imagine, it's very niche community.

Anna Foden:

I fell into it by accident. Actually I was meant to. I was seven or eight and I was meant to sign up for this after school gymnastics program and my mom just she just forgot to sign me up for it. But you know, figure skating was, you know, the booby prize. So I didn't sign, I didn't, I couldn't get you into this gymnastics thing. But do you want to try ice skating instead? I was like, okay, you know I was pretty bummed, yeah, so little did my mother know. That set off kind of a collision course in the world of competitive figure skating and then yeah, so she do your favorite.

Darren Evans:

then do you think your mom was actually?

Anna Foden:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean my best friend for life still my best friend. I met when I was eight years old skating. Okay, so no, it set me up for a lot of great things.

Anna Foden:

The world of competitive, you know, kind of high level competitive sports comes with its downsides, but I think I'm really aware of what those were and I think I can look back and take away some really great things about that experience in terms of the types of pressures that you put on yourself and the responsibility for the individual. Taking criticism is a huge skill to be learned. That is very difficult for some people. I still work on taking criticism, but in that kind of high pressure situation you either take it or you don't.

Anna Foden:

You can't be uncoachable in those situations, or else you won't improve. So no, I've taken a lot of things away from it. I think it comes out when I do kind of public speaking or events, I'm really comfortable in front of an audience, generally depending on the topic. So I think that all came from my time on the ice?

Darren Evans:

Yeah great. And when did you become aware of that? That actually taking criticism as you put it is actually a good thing as opposed to a negative thing.

Anna Foden:

That's something I don't think I realized was something which was a skill I learned in skating that I needed to foray into my everyday life, probably only within the last kind of 10 years, and I'm way better at taking criticism in some facets of my life than others. I think we all it's all difficult for us to take criticism in our interpersonal relationships with our family, but I think that's a different type of criticism Is the process, not the same though.

Anna Foden:

It is, but it comes from a different place, from those that are closest to you.

Anna Foden:

I think, so it's easier to take it more personally, whereas you know if it's coming from a coach or from a professional in a professional way. For me, it's easy for me to understand that. Like, business is business. You know, sometimes I might take things away and have a bit of a closer think about it, but you know business is business and you know if you need a bit of coaching or you know constructive criticism along the way. It's important to take that and and and and, you know, swish it around in your head and make sure you just improve from it and instead of letting it, you know, just completely block you and making you come to a standstill. So, yeah, it's definitely a skill.

Darren Evans:

But for your family different scenario I don't know. Your husband, your siblings, yeah yeah, yeah, it's, it's.

Anna Foden:

It's a work in progress and it's something that actually, it's something that I've been trying to instill in my kids. Okay, you know I'm not trying to be mean to you, I'm just you need to be able to take these things and improve. And I'm just I'm not just trying to be mean, mommy, I'm trying to help you.

Darren Evans:

So so, as a parent of four children, I am subjected to criticism, especially because right, because my oldest is 20, my youngest is 15. Okay, so they're really really close together in age.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

But they are definitely old enough to give me their opinion. Yeah, so their opinion is around what I wear, things that I watch, like like the whole thing. Yeah, and what I've learned I think as a parent, maybe you've learned this the same is my kids do not listen to what I say, but they listen to everything I do.

Anna Foden:

You are absolutely right, I think. I think, especially for kids they might get I don't know how to term it maybe lesson in getting talked out, fatigue.

Darren Evans:

Yes, because they get it at school. Do you do that as your mom? As a mom, like, do you do the whole 20 minute lecture and you're like, oh, wow, how much time I try not to, because I'm pretty hyper aware.

Anna Foden:

You know, I have one child we talked about. I do have one child with dyslexia and I know he gets very fatigued at school. He really has to concentrate and he comes home incredibly tired. So I think I'm pretty hyper aware of not doing the whole talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, because they just don't have the capacity to hear it anymore. But so I totally agree with you in that actions speak louder than words in some instances.

Darren Evans:

So yeah, that's my hardest lesson as a parent. So, kind of going back to that feedback, that was one of the things that I've learned and proactively try to work on.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, it's difficult because you want to be able to just talk to them, but you have to remember that they're just children. Yeah, it's difficult, it's always a balance.

Darren Evans:

So let's talk, let's go back to your figure skating and some of the lessons that you've learned. You mentioned that you've got a community and one of your best friends, or your best friend. Yeah he is old. Yeah, we're still really good friends.

Anna Foden:

We talk a couple of times a week. You know there is, if you can think you must imagine, in any niche sport. There's a bit of a weird community, Okay sounds like you've got a story there.

Darren Evans:

weird community what did you? I?

Anna Foden:

don't know, it's I don't. Maybe it's not so weird, but I don't know about my. My perspective of people who do niche sports is that you kind of have to be a bit weird to be really into them. But I'm a self proclaimed weirdo so I don't mind that. But yeah, you know, when you really get into a competitive sport like that and maybe it's similar with something like gymnastics- you know, it's a small community.

Anna Foden:

You're around hyper competitive people. You know you don't stick with a sport like that unless you're really competitive. Your friends are your competitors because it's an individual sport which is a really interesting dynamic, which I think is makes it, you know, sets it apart from the team sport. So you have to, yeah, strike that balance right when you are competing against your best friends.

Anna Foden:

So you kind of have to be able to modulate your competitive mode with your friend mode when it's leading up to a big competition or who's going to land this new jump first? But yeah, no it's. It's a community that you know, I'm not very close to anymore per se. My best friend's mom just happened to be my coach too, so in that sense I'm still a bit you know, I get the gossip every now and then but I'm I'm, I'd say, very much disconnected from that community now. But I took amazing things away from it.

Darren Evans:

So did you compete at international level?

Anna Foden:

I did, you did, okay, fine, but you didn't make the Olympic no no, no, I competed at an international level, not at, like, the highest level of skating, because international competition starts in skating, kind of at the junior ranks.

Anna Foden:

So I did that. But yeah, no, I was not Olympic bound. And and again and that's another interesting lesson I took from it was you know, just because you're really good and passionate about something, sometimes you need to learn one to let it go a bit and to keep it in your heart and take really fantastic things away from them. But no, when it's time to pivot a bit, Talk to me about that.

Darren Evans:

When did that start for you and what did that look like?

Anna Foden:

And was there a?

Darren Evans:

mourning period that you went through.

Anna Foden:

No, no, actually I think for me I think I was always uni bound. That was just something my parents were like. It just was never a question. You're going to uni and you know really early on in something like figure skating if you're going to the Olympics. So I think I always knew that that wasn't my future. But I was going to ride it out and enjoy it and I actually I think I was pretty relieved when the competitive aspect of it stopped because I could focus on something else, and I Didn't get stuck in it or have any Misconceptions about my longevity in the sport.

Anna Foden:

That's not to say that you know it's fantastic for people who stay in it. It just wasn't for me. So it's time to move on to something that could, you know, just kind of be the next fun phase of my life new challenge.

Darren Evans:

So how did you go then from niche skating? Yeah on ice to niche Sustainability.

Anna Foden:

I guess it is a bit niche, isn't it streaming? Yeah so I went to architecture school and in my last year realized I didn't want to be an architect, and so I started. We have a career fair at our architecture school and I was introduced to the world of construction.

Darren Evans:

Which? Which architecture school was that that you?

Anna Foden:

know I went to the University of Maryland.

Darren Evans:

In the United States.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, right outside of Washington DC, Maryland as you would say here, but us Marylanders don't pronounce the Y yeah.

Anna Foden:

Yeah. So there are so many fantastic alternative career paths in so many things. So, yeah, I started in construction right out of uni. At the time that was I'm aging myself that was 2004 Sustainability and construction in America was really in its infant style stages. They've come a long way. I will say I don't have the pulse on everything that's going on in the US Totally I've been here for 12 years now. But so, yeah, I started at this huge construction company, you know, a big National construction company, and I was in their graduate program and, like so many new and niche things, some of the powers that be at the company said hey, can some of you young whippersnapper graduates sort out sustainability for us? And I'd already, you know, been been introduced to, say, sustainability in architecture school. So I was really keen and I thought it was a fun opportunity To do something that was a bit different, stay on the graduate track, but still stand out a bit and do something a bit fun. So, yeah, I've been doing sustainability and construction since day one.

Darren Evans:

Seems a bit of a theme with you, with niche being yeah, I don't know why that is I?

Anna Foden:

maybe there's some sort of deep-seated psychological issue going on there. But I think he's great stand out.

Darren Evans:

I think it's great.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, and, and you know, I think one of my hopes is that sustainability. Now it won't be so niche because everyone's got to get involved, so it'll become the new health and safety where everyone's just got To get on board or take a hike.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, yeah, so just talk about the, the early stages of your career. So you put your hand up or you got volunteered to go and work on yeah, what was that project?

Anna Foden:

So it wasn't a specific project for sustainability, but there was a really big project that I put my hand up for actually in our construction company. I think that's another theme is think you talk, we you and I talked about this. You know you won't get. You won't get something if you don't ask for it. We had a huge kind of flagship baseball stadium project coming through the company in Washington DC.

Anna Foden:

I was living in DC and I just said, can I, can I get on that job? And it was a fast-tracked design and build 23 months from demolition to pile driving to everything to opening day. So it was really exciting and, yeah, it was, I'd say, one of a really incredible first job on the CV for for a you know, a girl in the construction industry Kind of finding her feet it was a really exciting job to be on.

Darren Evans:

What was the size of the of the stadium? Was it like a?

Anna Foden:

So it was a baseball stadium 41, 41, 42,000 seats, you know, a million plus square feet. It was the first lead certified professional sports stadium in the world.

Darren Evans:

Okay, yeah. So, and this is back kind of mid 2000s early. Yeah, so opening day was March 2008, so we're going back quite a quite a ways now which is really for thinking, isn't it really because back in 2008, not just the US, but also the UK, I think, probably anywhere outside of Germany weren't really Pushing anything?

Anna Foden:

Sustainability yeah, I mean.

Anna Foden:

So the UK had Breaum which is you know, I think lead was probably born from a lot of the themes around Breaum but yeah, lead lead really picked up in Washington DC at the time because the all government buildings had to to have a lead rating, so or lead certification. So I was really lucky to be working there at the time because my company just happened to build a lot of office building that needed to, you know, meet GSA requirement. So I got stuck into lead quite early on in my career and to be doing it on such a cool Project that's a first you know was really exciting and you know the US Green Building Council was also based in DC so we had a lot of really good local support on that one to get it certified in the US Green Building.

Anna Foden:

Yes. So when I left that construction company, you know, I was made redundant. Actually, during the recession I went and worked for my local chapter of the US Green Building Council, which happened to be based in the US Green Building Council headquarters.

Darren Evans:

So I was kind of there.

Anna Foden:

At the coal face of the US Green Building Council, which was really exciting. I was there, you know, maybe for a year, a year and a half, before I moved over to the UK.

Darren Evans:

Okay, so it looks like you just Going back to what you were saying is kind of putting your hand up for stuff and proactively searching for stuff. Yeah it sounds like that's what you did at the the US Green Building.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, yeah, I found myself made redundant, as so many of us Did in the construction industry. You know, I think I made it to like the third round of redundancies at my company and then finally.

Anna Foden:

You know, it's a that's a good Skin thickening exercise to go through redundancy and I, you know I don't wish it upon everyone, but it's a really, really good learning experience. Yeah, I was already involved with the US Green Building Council, so, yeah, he just got to go out and talk to people and ask and, you know, I had a new job within two weeks of my redundancy. So, it was yeah.

Darren Evans:

And I guess it doesn't feel like I've been made redundant. Well, twice yeah, and Initially, when that happens, is is quite tough.

Anna Foden:

It's devastating. Yeah, it's really devastating. You almost feel like you know, you feel like such a failure and it's a very dooming gloom. But you know, again I think going back, if we're talking about lessons from my past life as a figure skater.

Darren Evans:

Yeah.

Anna Foden:

I mean gosh, I can't tell you how many times I bombed in competitions or I just had utter failures and you know, you just kind of have to get back on to the next one and not let it ruin you. I got dead last in my first skating competition actually, but I got first in my second competition.

Darren Evans:

So that's a huge jump. Yeah even the jump of emotion right.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, yeah. So you know I think that perhaps is something I've taken away is just kind of got. You have to get back on the horse and just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get on with it and you know no one's no one's going to come and do it for you. You know some people have the luxury of that, but most of us don't. And you kind of have to get on with life and onwards and upwards.

Darren Evans:

That's a really really good point.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, no one is going to do it for you, no, yeah.

Darren Evans:

And I don't think anyone should, because I think that's where the benefit is right In being proactive because of the lessons that and the growth that exists within being proactive.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, and I think you know it helps if you've made some really good relationships and connections along the way. I think everyone, everyone should do that. I think networking in any industry is really important so you know, when you do find yourself redundant, you have a few people you can go make some phone calls to, I mean, you know, just a really simple instance like that. But staying well connected, knowing what's going on with your industry, knowing, knowing who you can talk to, I think is really important.

Darren Evans:

Just picking up on one thing. You said I don't know if this was conscious. You said when you find yourself redundant, not if yeah, if you find yourself redundant, yeah. And there's lots of people that I speak to specifically in senior roles that have had that experience of redundancy.

Anna Foden:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know you don't ever want to find yourself there, but you know.

Darren Evans:

Yes, lots of you look for, yeah, yeah.

Anna Foden:

But you know, we, we, we have an industry that just happens to fluctuate along with the economic times, really really closely tied to it, like most industries. So you know, we expand and contract and I think we have to have that same mindset. Long gone are the days when we're in the same job for 30 years. You know, it's just not the reality of the landscape anymore, that's good yeah, so you came across the Jolly Old England.

Darren Evans:

Yes A number of friends in the US, and they do, every now and again, refer to it as Jolly Old.

Anna Foden:

England I get so many funny phrases. I'm, I, just I'm like no one says that here.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, so how's the transition been from American culture or US culture to UK or British?

Anna Foden:

Well, I think everyone knows the stereotype of Americans. I think we tend to be a bit loud, we tend to think everyone wants to be our friend, that everyone wants to have a friendly conversation on the tube with us. So that, I learned very quickly, was not the case here.

Darren Evans:

You didn't try, that did you On the tube. And try and speak to someone in London on the tube. I think, I think.

Anna Foden:

I probably did. You know a little bit and then you realize quickly that people just want to have space. People are slightly more passive, aggressive here. They keep things a bit closer to their, their, their hip. I think one of the biggest culter shocks for me was that is that. You know, the loud, friendly American is not always best placed in some situations here, so you just kind of have to gauge your audience a bit.

Anna Foden:

Just be a bit more reserved when you need to understand that not everyone really cares how you're doing that day. If they ask you, it's really just a you know a nice city to just say hello to.

Darren Evans:

It's really, really hello. How are you? It's really hello.

Anna Foden:

Exactly, you need to learn the code words for hello.

Darren Evans:

Yes, yes, that's fun. One of the things I do love about American culture is going back to the competition element and that you competing against your friends.

Anna Foden:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Is that when you have a competitor in the US, it appears as though that they are looked at as someone to aspire to, as opposed to someone to tear down. Yeah, Do you like that? That way that American culture appears to, appears to be.

Anna Foden:

I've seen elements of that here. But yeah, there is a certain kind of go getter, you can be anything you want to be culture of Americans. So I think you know, perhaps maybe that spills over a bit into my day to day here. But yeah, I think you know, I think sometimes you've got the flip side of that though, where it can be a bit detrimental, where you, you know, you get the people who just kind of work themselves to the bone.

Anna Foden:

So, I think, something I do. I think what you enjoy about being here in the UK is that there is there is a bit of an awareness on your personal time and your wellbeing as it relates to switching off of it.

Darren Evans:

I'm not saying everyone does switch off. You are so right. I've got a guy that works for me.

Anna Foden:

He's from the US and they try and get him to take some time off. It's hard. It's a hard mindset to get out of and we've got.

Darren Evans:

We've also got an unlimited holiday policy. So you can have as much holiday as you need, and, and he still has not got his head around it. He's how long has it been? We've had this policy in place now for over four years and he still has not got his head around it. Just to try and get him to take 28 days off is a struggle.

Anna Foden:

That it's a really. It's a really tough switch to get into the mindset where you're encouraged and allowed to take all of your holiday time. I mean it's, you know, in in, I think, still in the lot, in a lot of the places in the US it's kind of frowned upon. You took all your holidays this year. You like to travel, huh. So yeah, it's a mindset change.

Darren Evans:

So I think now what we're going to do is we're going to try and debunk a few myths. I think this would be a good time to do that we're going to go to what I've called the demolition zone.

Anna Foden:

Ooh, okay.

Darren Evans:

Okay, so, anna, you have built this, this thing. It looks very beautiful. Actually, it looks like it is a 18th century UK place of worship.

Anna Foden:

Oh yeah, I promise, my models were much more ornate and complex in architecture school. This is not an indicator of my performance in architecture school?

Darren Evans:

Absolutely not, absolutely not. So what does this represent for you?

Anna Foden:

So I think the myth that this represents and it's something everyone in my position in construction and beyond is faced is I think a lot of people think that it is the sustainability team's job to get sustainability and carbon reductions across the line in our journey to net zero, so that is absolutely a myth.

Anna Foden:

I'd like to bust that. I think we are still in the process of busting, but it really does need to come from the top down and the ground up and integrated into every enabling part that we have, from our commercial teams to our design managers, to our finance teams, to our bin managers. Everyone in between needs to help and the process really needs to be integrated for it to work.

Darren Evans:

You're absolutely right. I've seen this in, I think, every single company that I've dealt with since my companies existed. This is like I said, before 2007. So this is not an ISG unique thing, so this is definitely valuable for everybody to hear Great. Anything else. Go on Anything else. Before you want to knock it back.

Anna Foden:

No, I was just going to ask if I get to swat it away now.

Darren Evans:

Just do what you do to get rid of stuff. That is good, anna, it's been great having you here on the podcast.

Anna Foden:

Thank you so much. Thank you, it's been really fun.

Darren Evans:

Just one last thing one last question. What is the thing that you want the world to know? That would make the biggest difference in sustainability.

Anna Foden:

Oh, that's a really loaded question. Ending on a really difficult one, I'd say, if we're going to narrow it, really really narrow it down to buildings. I think one thing that people can do to help us all on our journey that sounds really simple, but we don't see a lot of people or clients doing it is having a really good understanding of how you use your building and the use that you would like to get out of your building and your occupancy patterns. These all seem like very simple things that a lot of people, a lot of companies, just haven't pinned down yet. Especially now with flexible working, there needs to be a wipe the slate clean. Let's rethink how we're using these buildings.

Darren Evans:

So you're saying just get really clear on what you're going to use your building for.

Anna Foden:

How and when and who's going to be in it.

Darren Evans:

Perfect Yep.

Anna Foden:

I think that's a fantastic starting point, lovely.

Darren Evans:

Okay, thank you, anna.

Anna Foden:

Thank you, darren. Thanks, it's been fun.