Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 7 The True Cost of Cutting Corners: Value Over Price, Scott Tacchi

• Darren Evans • Episode 7

Share episode

Send us a text

In this eye-opening episode of 'Thrive in Construction,' I sit down with Scott Tacchi from Sir Robert McAlpine. 🏗️

From Passion to Innovation: Scott takes us from his early love for construction to pioneering sustainable, modern methodologies that are reshaping our world.

Challenging Norms: Delve into Scott's insights on moving beyond traditional practices to embrace collaboration, efficiency, and sustainability. It's not just about building; it's about building smarter.

Value vs. Cheap: Discover why investing in quality and sustainability is crucial for the industry's future, breaking the cycle of short-term thinking.

Equality and Opportunity: Scott's journey underscores the industry's evolving landscape, advocating for gender equality and unveiling the myriad of opportunities construction offers to the next generation.

Shaping the Future: From the UK's £3 billion investment in eco-friendly schools to the call for more research and development, learn how early engagement and collaboration can revolutionise construction.

Be the Change: Inspired by Scott's mantra 'think differently and do it better,' this episode is a rallying cry for all of us to contribute to a sustainable, innovative future in construction.

Timeline:
[00:00] Intro
[2:58]   Scott on Apprenticeships
[5:17]   His Dads Impact on his Career Path
[6:43]   Is The Construction Industry A Desirable To Work In?
[14:46] Making Every Penny Count
[22:25] Sustainable Construction
[34:20] Scott on His Role at Sir Robert McAlpine
[38:16] Value vs Cheap
[51:18] The Demolition Zone
[57:05] Scott’s Advice to The Construction Industry


👉 Join the Conversation:
We invite you to engage in this enlightening discussion. Share your thoughts, like, comment, and subscribe for more insights into the evolving landscape of construction and sustainability.

🔗 Stay Updated:
Follow our channel for the latest episodes. Join us in shaping a future where sustainability and innovation go hand in hand in the construction industry.

Follow Scott:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-tacchi-146bb237/

Sir Robert McAlpine: https://www.srm.com/

Follow Me: https://darrenevans.komi.io

Scott Tacchi:

I'm the head of modern methods of construction at Sir Robert McAlpine. He started with actually really not enjoying my A-levels at all, and so actually I got an apprenticeship. The opportunities to male, female the line is completely blurred. There's no difference in the opportunities afforded. Everything's about the money. This is my representation of a house OK, poor as that may be, and so much of the last 20 years I've focused on because I believe for me that that's about social value. Lego kits are a kit of parts, something I grew up with and something I still love, and our buildings are actually not so different from those. There is a bit of a myth here that I wanted to demolish, and I don't know if I can even just knock it down and demolish it now. Nothing gets me more frustrated or makes me cross her. Housing is a hot topic at the moment. Should it be higher up the government agenda? The myth that is being sold at the moment, I believe, by the trade press through some reporting or inaccurate reporting, is that Hello and welcome to the Thrive Inconstruction podcast.

Darren Evans:

Today we have Scott Tacky as our guest. Scott welcome. Thank you, darren. Thank you very much. So let's start at the at the beginning. I think for those people that are listening and watching this, they may be wondering I've never seen this guy before. Who is he? What does he do?

Scott Tacchi:

Fine, ok, so I'm the head of modern methods of construction at Sir Robert McAlpine and I've been here for just over a year. Before that I spent four years in the Department of Education as a civil servant and I ran the offsite construction program. I was head of modern methods of construction for the Department of Education and as part of that role I ran the offsite framework, which was a three billion pound four year construction framework primarily aimed, probably as it says, on the tin delivering schools via modern methods of construction, primarily offsite, and a very successful and game changing framework for many government departments to follow one from. Prior to that I spent 15 years in consultancy, so it was a director, regional director, companies like Ridge, montmock, donald and Mace, running the PM and QS side of those businesses. So quite a varied and, I think, quite a rounded experience that I've gained through the really the sort of the three primary different aspects of the construction industry that we see. So where did you start.

Darren Evans:

Where did this all start for you? Was it in the QS and project management?

Scott Tacchi:

So, in actual fact, for me, it started with with actually really not enjoying my A levels at all, and how many levels did you do? So goodness me it was. I was doing technical drawing, I was doing sort of the sort of yeah, I think it was physics and something like that. I can almost can't even remember. Darren Wiped it for me.

Darren Evans:

And I didn't enjoy it.

Scott Tacchi:

And so actually I got an apprenticeship. I got an apprenticeship in a structure engineers. I was on a drawing board. I spent four years drawing, going out, surveying buildings and really falling in love with the construction industry and the built environment.

Darren Evans:

What was it specifically that you enjoyed about the construction industry? Then you said you fell in love with it.

Scott Tacchi:

Yeah, I mean, as a kid I wanted to be a demolitions expert and blow stuff up, probably like many of us in construction. But for me, just just seeing the value in in what we do, how we live our lives you know we spend the majority of our lives, probably for a lot of people, inside buildings, and how those environments come into being is is no accident, and there's a tremendous amount of effort that goes into the creation of our built environment, something that I value greatly. I think as an industry we don't value the work that we do and the impact that we make on people's lives. Maybe maybe that's a UK thing rather than a European thing. I see much greater emphasis on the work that we do A European thing. I see much greater emphasis put on the professionalism of construction in Europe than I do in the in the UK and the desirability of working in that sector.

Scott Tacchi:

For me it was never an undesirable sector to work in. It was something I I loved and to this day still love doing the job that I do. I think I'm very fortunate in that.

Darren Evans:

So as a as a teenager, did you find yourself driving around the streets and looking at buildings and thinking, wow, how did how did that come to fruition?

Scott Tacchi:

Yeah, I mean, and also laboring on buildings as a teenager, helping friends and as part of your apprenticeship, was it you? No no. So this is, you know, earning summer jobs. Ok yeah, just working on. And you know, and understanding how how buildings are put together, just sparked something in me as something I then always wanted to do.

Darren Evans:

That's great. So was there anyone in your life that you would say has been an inspiration to you specifically towards construction or the role that you're in at the moment?

Scott Tacchi:

I mean this might be cliched, but my father was in construction before me, ok, around products and selling around windows, doors, trusses to housing developments and other developments, so he clearly had a significant impact on on me. I grew up in sort of that environment. There has, then, been one or two people through my career a formal boss within Mace, a guy called Simon Doyle, who who really showed me what it was to be professional, and somebody that I've tried to imitate through my career. So, yeah, and there have been. There have been one or two others as well yeah, mike Travis in Montmonte, donald, again, somebody that cared about what they were doing, cared about the team and were nurturing. Both of those that I've named nurturing individuals, and I've seen the opposite side of that as well, clearly, also we won't, we won't talk about that.

Darren Evans:

So it's it's interesting that you mentioned about the nurturing side and how that's inspired you and how that's enabled you to to be where you are. But I'm wondering, kind of going back then to the nurture that you had at home Did, did you feel that come through from your father as well?

Scott Tacchi:

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean it's. We talked today about whether the construction industry is a desirable environment to work in, you know, and there's a lot of challenges that we see particularly within the trade press, and it is being portrayed as being very negative. For me, the construction industry was never a negative Environment to work in. You know, I saw that from from home and from people that I knew were, who were tradesmen, who all had a love for it, and clearly that did rub off on me. And I think that's where we have an issue with an industry that the love for construction that I grew up with isn't portrayed to a new generation, a generation that we desperately need to come into the construction industry.

Darren Evans:

I definitely have seen that there is a gap there, for sure of those stories and that passion being told to that next generation. But I know from conversations I've had with people that are going through the process of university and doing apprenticeships as well, there is that love there and that excitement there. But I guess the area that I see for improvement potentially is going back into senior school, maybe even into primary school, of those conversations what do you want to do when you get older for a living? Why quite fancy being an architect? Why quite fancy like the word QS or quantity surveyors? You don't get those words being banded around sub 18, do you really?

Scott Tacchi:

No, it doesn't really mean anything to anybody. I mean, I've spoken to in the past how I spend quite a lot of time doing lecturing. So I do guest lecturing at UCL, loughborough, at UE, something which I find hugely satisfying in terms of giving back, and one of the things that I was looking for when I joined Sir Robert McAlpine was to ensure that they had a social value policy that would allow me to give back and, as a business, they support all members of staff with four days a week to do charitable work or institutional work like lecturing at universities, and that was something that was hugely important to me. I wasn't going to join an organization that didn't value being able to share what we have, what we've learned, what I've learned, with a new generation of future construction leaders coming forward.

Darren Evans:

So if a young child so when I say young child I mean between the ages of, say, 10 to 16, were to come to you and say, scott, what's this construction thing about and why should I even be bothered about it? Would the message be different for a male than it would a female? I know you've got a children and one of them's a girl and one of them's a boy, so you understand the dynamic there.

Scott Tacchi:

The message would be no different at all. I think the industry has matured significantly, certainly in my lifetime, and I think it's exponentially matured over the last 10 years. Where the opportunities to male, female, there isn't, the line is now completely blurred. There's no difference in the opportunities afforded. What I don't think we do is we don't talk about the variety of careers Okay, that are huge and ever increasing. That's from in terms of the pre-construction and the approach to digitalization through the trades that we still need, but trades that are being undertaken in factory and environments now, rather than having to travel the country. It really is such a diverse exciting for me anyway industry where you can go and be almost whatever you want to be, to whatever particular niche of interest you have.

Darren Evans:

So talk about quantity surveying as an example. A 10 to 16 year old wouldn't understand that. How would you break that down for them so that they would understand it, and it may even be appealing to them?

Scott Tacchi:

Everything's about the money, everything we do. Ultimately, I believe, businesses are about making money. But the homes that we live in, the buildings that we inhabit, the office that we're in studio that we're in today somebody has to work out what that's going to cost. Somebody needs to work out the amount of materials that goes into that. The people that need to work hand in glove with the architect, with the logistics teams, with the material suppliers that commercial role quantity surveyor, commercial manager plays a pivotal role in the whole process.

Scott Tacchi:

But it's not just them being a pivotal role. It is a team game and you simply can't do this on your own. Everybody needs to work together and I think that's what's really struck me over the years is that I am a small cog in a very large machine and that very large machine has built some incredible and inspiring buildings. I've spent a lot of my career building schools. I'm now spending it building hospitals. I've spent time building sports facilities. There is, for me, a personal satisfaction that comes out of being like a quantity surveyor, a cog in that very large machine to achieve things which are much greater than any single individual could ever deliver on their own.

Darren Evans:

That's great. If I was a 10-year-old and someone was to come to me and say, hey, Darren, do you see that building over there? Or you see that area you can have a significant role in designing and shaping and building that, Would you be interested? I'd be like, oh yeah, absolutely.

Scott Tacchi:

And maybe you know, maybe it's because I still like Lego. You know I grew up on Lego. It's one of the most popular toys on the planet. It's Lego sets. They're both male, female, and we lose that. Many of us have grown up on Lego kits. Well, as we start to move into a world of modern methods of construction, which I know we're gonna talk about, kit of parts well, lego kits are a kit of parts, something I grew up with and something I still love, and our buildings are actually not so different from those kit of parts, lego kits that we've all grown up with.

Darren Evans:

Principles are exactly the same, aren't they? Indeed, and especially now things like games like Roblox, yeah, minecraft, minecraft yes, I don't think Roblox is the right one, absolutely not the right one. Minecraft, minecraft is sort of where you're able to build and construct stuff. Again, looking at when you said a kit of parts, is the same principle right Indeed, as a QS would have.

Scott Tacchi:

Absolutely indeed. Yes, but the toys are a bit bigger and a bit more expensive and instead of pence it's millions.

Darren Evans:

That's good. You mentioned about working on really large buildings and buildings that you're proud of. Can you just give us a bit of a flavor of where those buildings are, what ones that you're most proud of or notable for you?

Scott Tacchi:

I mean certainly. I've been very fortunate in my career that for many years I've run offices, run teams of people and I've been able to cherry pick the jobs to a degree that I've wanted to do and so much of the last 20 years I've focused on education and health buildings because I believe for me that's about social value.

Scott Tacchi:

Yes, I've done my share of office blocks and hotels and warehouses and housing, but I get the satisfaction out of knowing that making every penny count when I'm project managing education facility delivery or what I do now working around advising on how to optimize the delivery around hospitals particularly, that gives me a huge level of satisfaction and really pushing teams to make that every single penny count. And nothing gets me more frustrated or makes me crosser than seeing money being wasted, public money being wasted, money that can benefit real people in real ways.

Darren Evans:

So talk to me about the experience that you had working for the government and how you had seen things improve and how things have got better since the time that you were there not necessarily because of you, but just generally speaking.

Scott Tacchi:

So I picked up the role as head of modern methods of construction back in middle of 2019. Okay, and that was to launch a new framework or head up the modern methods of construction approach within the Department for Education and, as part of that, launch a three billion pound four year framework around offsite school delivery.

Darren Evans:

So what does that actually mean? Someone that's not familiar with frameworks, and Okay so we went out.

Scott Tacchi:

We selected 10 contractors through a competitive bid process to then work with the Department of Education to deliver schools for us. But instead of competing for every job, we would go through a process of and I'll use the full name performance-based direct allocation. Other people might know it's similar to direct award, but it was based on their KPI Key Performance Indicator, performance and we were allocating projects. They still had to go through a proving process of value for money. Cost was an element of that, but it really was a framework built on collaboration, built on alliencing principles A one-team, 10 contractors working to better eat, better themselves and better each other Right and deliver the greatest value for money that they possibly could in building schools.

Scott Tacchi:

I believe, and still believe to this day, it was been a transformational framework, not without its difficulties. We launched the framework and then six weeks later, the world got shut down with COVID. We've had hyperinflation, which still continues to this day. Some major issues came out through the delivery of that program in its early days. What I see now is other government departments sort of picking up the baton and really moving what I mean still a live framework. It actually concludes in January of 24, so very shortly, but picking up the baton that we started and moving the whole procurement, certainly around public sector projects, into a much more collaborative alliance approach, and which is good for all of us as taxpayers, as they look to squeeze every penny they possibly can of improvement for us the taxpayer.

Darren Evans:

So it seems like, then, that this was a pioneering element, that you were involved with the government.

Scott Tacchi:

I certainly believe it was, and I can't take all the praise for it. There was a big team involved in this, but a really a very forward thinking team, that we were able to do something which hadn't been done before and where did sustainability or the climate crisis feature within this framework?

Scott Tacchi:

Okay, so very much. When the framework was being designed back in 2019, the carbon zero agenda wasn't really a thing that's really come into play I would say probably since 2020, 2021, but within the program there is a specification for delivery and the specification for school delivery and a lot of public buildings. It was being updated as the framework was being rolled out, as projects were being let, and I'm very proud to have been part of that. I really felt that the Department for Education were at the forefront of how to specify buildings around carbon zero and a number of Pathfinder projects were led, led by Crawford Wright, a superb architect, within the Department for Education to really champion and lead the drive to carbon zero, and I see that being picked up again now. The likes of the new hospitals program and how that now and there is a since October all new buildings need to be net carbon zero going forward, really pushing at this agenda. Now I see that being done with defense estates, ministry of Justice, even national highways. How do we build roads that are carbon zero all programs that I am involved into a small degree, which is a superb thing. I'm very pro-saving the world. I wouldn't suggest I'm the best at it and what I've really seen now is government departments and quite a few actual private developers picking up where I feel the government has let us down.

Scott Tacchi:

I watched the outcome of COP28 that we've just had and some targets being achieved, some targets being set. I see the UK's minister that was responsible coming home early, argued possibly to vote on within parliament on other legislation that's going through very disappointing. I see the dilution of earlier in October of the requirements around housing. I see other legislation around environmental protection nutrient neutrality law trying to be diluted for what I believe is actually environmental terrorism by the government for profits of house building. I find those all very disappointing. But what gives me hope is actually what government departments, leaders in those departments and leaders in construction businesses have gone. No, we're not going to follow the government, we are going to stand up and I see that within Sirot-McCarpyne, I see it within other main tier one contractors and clients, and that really does give me hope for our future.

Darren Evans:

That's great, which brings me onto a question. Actually is where do you think that changing to a more sustainable way of constructing or a push towards net zero, where do you think that leadership should come from, if you look at government or if you look at industry?

Scott Tacchi:

So, sustainable construction because I think covers a great deal in terms of its total agenda, of which part of it is carbon zero, but it's much broader. Sustainable is much broader than purely a discussion around carbon zero. So if I look at the role that I'm doing, okay, around modern methods of construction, okay, an agenda which over the last few years, has been sort of gaining more and more speed, more and more in the public consciousness. That's around productivity improvements, it's around sustainability improvements, it's around profitability improvements, it's around carbon zero. And if we put housing to one side for a moment, because I think that is a very separate and different industry, I see great strides being made within let's call it main contracting or what we're doing outside of housing in terms of industry, tier one contractors and other tiers of contractors, of supply chain, of material manufacturers, of plant suppliers, all saying we can do this better, we can do, we can think differently, we can do it better. And looking at modern methods of construction, not as we're gonna build a volumetric unit in a factory, but looking at it in terms of the way that we in Sorobo Carpina have defined it as contemporary innovation, looking at all innovation, the very best of what's happening within the construction industry.

Scott Tacchi:

I'm thinking can we deliver better, can our outputs be better? By looking at all the innovation that's around us and cherry picking the very best where it adds value. So I see it being more industry driven than I see it being government driven, and I think that's the right as well. I really don't buy into the big brother. Government needs to dictate everything to us approach. Having been a civil servant for four years, I buy into that even more. Now I see the limitations that central government can do. It really needs to be for individuals and businesses to make that step change and I see that happening and can give many examples of where that's happening.

Darren Evans:

Where do you think the government's role is then within that? So if industry is leading in this way and you're giving examples of how that's happening, it's quite clear and evident that you're wanting to be part of that and are part of that, definitely within Sir Robert McCallpine at the moment. But what would you say the government's role is within that, if at all?

Scott Tacchi:

Okay. So I think we need to differentiate between what is central government and what are government departments, because they can have two very different roles, you know, should everything be legislated, everything demanded from a central government and housing is a hot topic at the moment. Should modern methods of construction, volumetric housing, should it be higher up the government agenda? Should central government be setting minimum targets of 50% plus, when we've currently got targets of 25%?

Darren Evans:

So in this one here you're specifically talking about the current or any future prime minister or party mandating, yeah.

Scott Tacchi:

So I question should they mandate? Okay? Well, there's already guidance. Okay, and I think we're a democratic society. We hope we should be given free choice, okay, and products should stand off on their own benefits. So I don't believe in a central government dictating you shall use, and mandating every product and every item that we need to adhere to and adopt. I think there is guidance that can be given that then government departments can then strengthen in their rollout of programs, just like I did within the Department for Education.

Scott Tacchi:

But quite often what I see, not only within housing but within other areas as well as somebody has a good idea about a widget, whatever that widget is and that might be a widget that is a volumetric house or it might be something else that is more expensive, potentially not as good quality and then demanding that government mandate that product. Okay, well, that is something I don't believe in. I believe if you have a better product and you have a good business case, then your product will sell itself. But we are seeing a conversation, particularly in the trade press at the moment, and there is the Built Environment Parliamentary Committee on Housing, which specifically talks about what's gone wrong in MMC Doesn't actually differentiate in its title between housing and industry at large. But what's gone wrong in MMC housing? And there's been calls for much greater mandation over a specific product type when, in my view, their business cases don't stand up, and that's where I don't believe government should intervene.

Darren Evans:

So it seems like, then, that the government are influenced by industry and sometimes can have the wall pulled over their eyes, as it were, to take them down a path that is great. But the free market is if you're buying a product and that product's not working for you, then you're not gonna buy any more of that product. So the path of quality then becomes a lot clearer. Exactly, yes. So let's talk about MMC, if you can just break that down, what MMC is. And then you've mentioned that there's a difference between MMC within domestic area and MMC within the kind of general contractor area at large, absolutely.

Scott Tacchi:

So I think you need to understand why are we even having a conversation around modern methods of construction? And that takes you back to 2019 and the parliamentary mandate to five departments around the presumption in favor of modern methods of construction. From there you go back to 2017. In the white paper that was around, it was actually primarily around house building in the UK and how productivity has been flapped for 30 years, but then we also need to look at other documents that have been produced, like the Latham report, 1994. So in four months it'll be 30 years old. That was followed in 1998 by the Egan report highlighting issues and problems with the construction industry lack of collaboration, lack of early contractor involvement, poor material supply chains and relationships, poor contracting models.

Scott Tacchi:

For me, the modern methods of construction agenda around contemporary innovation rather than around a product type, which is what it's been mainly sold as it's mainly been sold to industry, as it's volumetric or it's panelized. For me, it's not about volumetric, it's not about panelized. It's around a phrase I used earlier on with you contemporary innovation in all aspects, be that digital, be that componentization, materials, process, procedures to drive better outcomes. So it's how do we take a beat? Okay, pause for a minute, which is what we do when a lot of jobs come into the business. Can we take a greater approach to standardization in whatever, or rationalization to our offsite build, can we improve the quality, can we do it faster and can we improve our outcomes? For me, that's what modern methods of construction is about, and certainly the improvements in digital and everything that's coming through, bim and some incredible innovation even in the last 18 months that are coming through, are acting as real enablers to do platform developments and design for manufacturing assembly.

Darren Evans:

If someone listening to this wanted to understand a bit more about some of the innovations around technology you mentioned BIM. Where would they need to go or where would you point them? To understand that in a bit more detail?

Scott Tacchi:

It's quite a challenge there, because we really don't shout about what we do very well at all. It staggers me when I look at submissions for awards, how few submissions there are for awards, be it constructing excellence or whatever building magazine or construction news awards. That's probably the only place where you can actually go to those publications or bodies and see from the applications. But those applications come from the individuals putting themselves forward more often than not for that award. We don't shout about quite often what is incredible, and so as an individual trying to find out about something, sometimes it almost feels like it's potluck or you have to attend trade shows and spend hours walking around stalls to go in and find it.

Scott Tacchi:

But there is an issue, I think, that underlines this, with the construction industry in the UK particularly, where we aim our targets to make 2% or 3% profit. That is in no other industry. It 25%, housing is 20% net profit margins. We're 1, 2, 3%, which means our investment in research and development is a fraction of a fraction, and so maybe why productivity has been particularly slow, is only now starting to ramp up, is because there simply isn't the investment.

Scott Tacchi:

How does that feature for you then?

Darren Evans:

and what is it that you're doing in such a way in Sir Robert McCallpine to either directly address that or to indirectly address that?

Scott Tacchi:

So when projects come into us at ITT stage, I will review those projects with design teams and challenge those design teams around every aspect of the delivery of the project, be that in its digital, our approach to digital and how we're managing the project and to including how the project has been designed. That's landed with us Now. If that's at REBA stage three, we really are left with trying to play in the margins to improve that job because so much has been set already. But where we get the opportunity to be involved at a much earlier stage, we can make real fundamental change and bring improvements to those jobs, speed them up, reduce the cost, reduce the defects. It's all about productivity improvement.

Scott Tacchi:

Everything that I'm doing is predicated by that, and perhaps my title might have been better. Instead of head of modern methods of construction, it might have been head of productivity improvement might have been a better, because I really do feel that that's what this whole agenda is about. How can we improve? And so I push teams. I'm not an architect, I'm not a civil engineer, but my experience has led me to a very rounded understanding of how a lot of buildings are built and where we keep making mistakes. Coming back to the honest conversation with ourselves. Are we having an honest conversation as contractors, as clients? Do we truly share what it costs to build a building? Do we truly share what lessons have been learned from when we build a building, even within our own organizations, on the next job, let alone as a wider industry? And that is now starting to be picked up by some digital formats, but it's, I think, continually holds us back.

Darren Evans:

So there seems to be that there's a bit of a pattern, really that I'm seeing, not just with my business and the area of construction that we cover off as sustainability consultants, but also through these conversations that I'm having with other professionals in the industry similar to yourself, are saying that same thing is bring us in earlier and we can make a significant difference. And I'm getting that from architects, I'm getting that from QS's, I'm getting that from contractors. Who is it that really needs to hear that message, embrace it and jump on it.

Scott Tacchi:

So I was very honored. A few weeks back I was asked by the Infrastructure Projects Authority to present as part of their presentation at TipLife. So what is TipLife? Transforming infrastructure program life. So it's a yearly conference, century, government sponsored.

Scott Tacchi:

Most government departments were representative, with a large proportion of industry, and I was asked to specifically address one area, which was the construction playbook and early contractor involvement. And I spoke about the opportunity losses. I spoke about Latham and Egan in the construction playbook and how for Seropma, cow Pine, and I believe it's consistent across most other large tier one contractors, something like 70 to 80% of the projects that come into us for tender are Weber Stage 3 or near completion of Weber Stage 3. And how we've lost the opportunity to affect, probably within that, 60, 70 or 80% of the opportunities. So if the architect and engineering practices that were appointed really didn't address productivity improvements and they don't, by the way, very few are good at this If it's not been addressed in those early Weber Stage 1, 2 and 3 stages, then we've lost most of the opportunity and, as I touched on earlier, we'll have playing in the margins and that frustrates me because I look at schemes and think we could have done that so much better. We could have saved millions on many projects finished weeks, if not months, earlier.

Scott Tacchi:

On many projects handed over defect free buildings through a different approach to industrialized delivery and offsite componentization. Really, who does it fall to Within central government? There is a requirement by Treasury to show value, demonstrate value. For me, unfortunately, value, or that definition by Treasury, is cheapest and we still, as an industry, haven't got away from. Cheapest is the demonstration of value, and they're two very, very different words, aren't they? They are Value is different than cheap.

Scott Tacchi:

Value is very different from cheap. Most of our government programs are still predicated on cheap. Most of our a lot of clients still think value is determined by cheapest. I can tell you it's not. There is a whole conversation and many guidance notes. You've got value playbook has been written around. What are the long-term costs and benefits of actually investing a little more and getting true value, rather than the very cheapest possible product?

Darren Evans:

So to put you on the spot here, how would you define value specifically within the construction industry, if someone was to come to you and say, scott, I need good value from this building, good value from this development?

Scott Tacchi:

Good value is never the cheapest. Okay, so let's just underline that, because to answer your question is actually a much more complicated question. For me. It is about what are you trying to achieve? What is your outcome-driven goal for why we're even building this capital program? How are you trying to offer this service to your customers, be that somebody in a customer that's living in their own home, or customers being patients in a hospital, or customers being kids in a school? What is your ultimate goal? What are you trying to achieve?

Scott Tacchi:

Most of that is a space that you want to be in, an enjoyable space, to be in a space where you feel safe and comfortable and warm and protected. Very rarely do you achieve that by and I'll call it value engineering, but the term is really cost cutting to a point whereby you've provided the very cheapest you can possibly provide. And when you're wrapping life cycle, when you're wrapping carbon zero, to that I would say never are those things best represented by the very cheapest price. I believe you get what you pay for, and rarely do I go and look for the cheapest tin of beans on the shelf because they do not taste the same you don't help you long term.

Darren Evans:

Exactly.

Scott Tacchi:

And I'm sorry to bring it down to such a. It's very granular. A granular analogy of a 19 pence tin of beans is not the same as a 50 pence tin of beans. I know the difference and you know the difference in buildings. So what is value? I think we need a national conversation around value.

Darren Evans:

I really like that concept that you spoke about of having that clarity of what good looks like, because that's really the only way that you can judge what value is. Yes, you need to have an end goal, or at least a clear picture in your mind of what a future state needs to be, and there's a quotation that I heard a while ago by a guy called Robert Bralt, and he says something I think it will resonate with you. He said that we are kept from our goals not because of obstacles, but by a clearer path to lesser goals. So the thing that is preventing us from achieving our end goal isn't the obstacles that are in the way. It's actually a really clear path to something that we don't want, but it's really clear in our mind. So the reason that we don't get value in our buildings is because the path to cheap is really, really clear.

Scott Tacchi:

Indeed, yes, and I have repeatedly been asked in the past how can you make it cheaper?

Darren Evans:

Yes.

Scott Tacchi:

Okay Now, nothing frustrates me more by somebody asking me how can you make it cheaper? Okay, well, we can continue to do what we have currently do and we will probably, in the short term, make it cheaper. In the long term, we make it significantly more expensive, and be that expensive at the expense at our environment or expense at user experience or expense at maintenance and defects.

Scott Tacchi:

A conversation I'm having with people at the moment is okay, if a factory produced product may well be more expensive on an Excel spreadsheet as a package that you're buying, Okay. But now you need to take off the reduction in program, the reduction in defects, the improved quality performance of that product, be that U-values or less energy usage. But we're not good at doing that other bit. This very clear and narrow path to cheap is often easier and I completely agree with that because we're not actually collecting the information or collecting data or even understanding that 1 plus 1 does not equal 2. Okay, in many cases, if you get your 1 plus 1, you can actually make it equal 4 in the long term by spending I wouldn't even say spending a little bit more now, because sometimes it isn't more expensive. Sounds like what you're saying is just a different approach.

Scott Tacchi:

It's a different approach Start earlier. It's a cultural change and it is a mindset change towards doing things better, doing things differently. What's your?

Darren Evans:

hope for the future within your role specifically, and then after what's your hope for the future within the construction industry?

Scott Tacchi:

The hope for my role is that I do affect the architectural delivery teams within Soropma Calpine and within the wider industry to think differently, do it better.

Scott Tacchi:

Okay, I genuinely believe that there needs to be a cultural and mindset change away from we've always done it like this, so we will always will continue to do it like this.

Scott Tacchi:

There are very clear and, you know, indisputable examples now of doing it better, yet they are still not in the mainstream, and so if I in just some small way can affect doing it better and a lot of my time at the moment is spent with health care programs, so working on the new hospitals program, of which Soropma Calpine with Vinci in our IHP joint venture, been very successful and I'm involved in all of those schemes challenging those schemes to be better, to deliver better outcomes for patients. That's what I hope for. My future is that I, as this very small cog in a much bigger machine, can have just a small impact, but clear and fundamental impact on how we deliver better value in those buildings and give patients a better user experience and make that better in terms of cost and performance for the whole environment as well. I don't think that's so different from where I would like to see the construction industry going, but there are also bigger issues. You know we have a very poor contractual mechanism in the UK that is based on, effectively, conflict but no other.

Scott Tacchi:

It's going to find a point on it, design and build. All risk lump sum contracts drive an approach, especially when based on lowest cost winning, to how we deliver. So an approach which is which is an alliance, a collaborative I won't go into details but a project 13 approach to a client-contractor integrator model, working together, is what I would love to see happen in my the 10 years that I've got left of my current.

Darren Evans:

So you want to see a more collaborative approach, as opposed to a fragmented approach, which you've defined as designed and build.

Scott Tacchi:

Yes, absolutely. You know, and I didn't define that. You can go back to Latham. You can go 30 years back and him talking about that. You can go, you know, to pretty much every report that's been written, david Mosey.

Scott Tacchi:

I think it might even be Sir David Mosey now writing PPC 2000 and fact-one contracts. Trying to move the industry towards greater collaboration and greater working together is the only way that I actually see that we will ever be able to deliver our major capital programs, rhs2s, our new hospitals programs. The only way they can be delivered is through a greater collaboration from the very onset one, so we don't get the cost planning so hideously wrong that we currently do, currently do and get our value benefit assessments so hideously wrong, or cost benefit or cost benefit analysis yeah, yeah, I mean, maybe there's even a wrong definition.

Scott Tacchi:

Cost benefit analysis should be value benefit analysis, so hideously wrong. The only way I see that happening is is through, you know, much more integrated supply chains through client let's use the term contractor when actually it'll become the integrator and users, you know, vertically integrated together.

Darren Evans:

One of the things I've seen over the last kind of 15 or so years that I've had my business is and specifically within the last three years actually is the organizations are more likely to bring us on before Reba, stage 3, and so we're able, in our consultancy practice, to offer more value, save more money, make a difference, all these things that you're talking about. We are far from it being in the perfect situation or an ideal situation, and I think that you know that we both hope that will happen one day, but I have seen a change which does give me hope that in the next five years, or maybe even the next 10 years, maybe even the concept of design build would have would be a thing of the past.

Scott Tacchi:

I would agree. There's a lot of consultancies. Okay, consultancies are in goals engaged a much earlier stage and that's great if the consultancy is good and, darren, you've got a good consultancy. You know and you are at the sharp end of pushing forward innovation okay, there are a lot of other consultancies which are far from at the sharp end, that are very blunt tools, who, what I see, are basically out to charge an hourly rate and make as much money as possible. Who, who are out to serve their own objectives rather than their clients objectives okay, that's a very poor statement I make around what I see generally of the construction industry.

Scott Tacchi:

I also see others, like you, which are the very sharp end, who are excellent, but there is a, there is a whole level that is being missed around deliverability, because you might design something not looking specifically at the logistics of how that item is going to be delivered okay. Or the supply chain. You know transportation issues, some of the environmental impact issues, staffing issues. You can do a good design but you don't have access to to what the contractor needs to do to deliver that product. And and and this, this move away from the. Let's get to a reba stage 3 and then bring the contractor on board to much earlier contractor involvement, working vertically integrated with designers, with clients, and is a future that I hope for. It's a future that, 30 years ago, latham identified it needed to be the future. It's a future we still haven't achieved.

Darren Evans:

Scott, I think now would be a really good time for us to go to the demolition zone. Okay, are you ready? Okay, let's do it. Okay, we are now in the demolition zone and you've created this structure here, which is kind of quite low-level. Scott, for those people that are listening, I would say it's probably in about four or five blocks high, but it looks like it's got wings at the at the side of the structure and a and a pitched roof, indeed, so.

Scott Tacchi:

So this is my representation of a house, okay, right or poor as that may be, and it's probably why I am I'm not a physically building anything myself or an architect, so yeah, so this is my representation of a volumetric, factory built house. Okay, and this being the demolition zone, I'm gonna. I want to knock a myth down that I think is being portrayed in the markets at the moment, right in the industry parliamentary built environment committee what's gone wrong in modern methods of construction. It's something that I post about regularly as I watch and as I follow the interviews that are taking place, and, and the interviews have been very mixed in terms of the positive attributes of volumetric and MMC housing versus the negative attributes, the problems with insurance, problems with factory pipeline.

Scott Tacchi:

Should government put more money and wait behind volumetric housing in? Specifically, and and for me there is a bit of a myth here that I wanted to demolish now. Don't know if I can even just knock it down and demolish it now. I will in a minute, I'm sure I want to make a very clear differentiation between what is modern methods of construction when it comes to housing, which is, and, and modern methods of construction when it comes to the industry that you and I are in in main. Contracting for me is like comparing Ford to making an f-150 truck to Apple making the iPhone 15.

Scott Tacchi:

Okay that's a difference they are both, I arguably, consumer products. Okay, they are both made, potentially, in a factory, or elements are made in a factory by skilled workforce, but those products could not be more dissimilar, feeding into more dissimilar markets than the consumer markets they are feeding into. And for me that is the same as housing and main stream construction, infrastructure, hospitals, schools, major programs of works. But the myth that is being sold at the moment, I believe, by the trade press through through some reporting or inaccurate reporting, is that they are portraying modern methods of construction as being one in the same for housing and from infrastructure and industry. And it absolutely is not. And for me that's a huge frustration because, because the world that I'm working in, I am seeing incredible innovation, real money being saved, real outcome improvements. You know I've already, we've already touched on today Department for Education, the schools program, ministry of Justice in their prisons program, the fence, the states in the single living accommodation program, the works at national highways are looking to do and how they are pushing and moving forward and and and starting to really understand what modern methods of construction, industrialized construction, standardization, can do for them. There are incredible. You know, we've got a scheme ourselves the forge in central London, a kit apart, designed by Brydon Wood.

Scott Tacchi:

You know, these are all programs, projects, of which the innovation is has been staggering, the improvements have been staggering, and yet if you ask the majority of people what does modern methods mean to them? They will talk to you about failed housing. They will talk to you about Ilka or LNG going under. They'll talk to you about even though it's been associated with housing and they weren't other businesses that have folded. They even had nothing to do with housing.

Scott Tacchi:

But it has this conversation that needs to be demolished around MMC housing, which has fallen victim to many issues, you know, and a perfect storm of COVID, of hyperinflation, of interest rates being at a 15-year high and not looking to come down anytime soon, of a, you know, discussions around potential recession, global recession that we are or are not back in, depending on your view of overheads, which are very large in comparison to traditional on-site contracting. All of those things aren't taken into account when when we're talking about MMC housing, and I feel that this is the myth that needs to be demolished. The two industries are totally and utterly different and should not be spoken about in the same conversation or with the same breath great, I feel like you've cleared that one up, scott.

Darren Evans:

I think the only thing you need to do now is demolish it there we go, we go, just with a swipe of the finger that is just completely falling down. Scott, thanks very much welcome. What one thing would you give as a piece of advice to the construction industry that would make all the difference in the future so it was something that I heard at a conference recently, okay, and it was think differently, do it better.

Scott Tacchi:

And I I've written that on now on all my email photos, okay, as a reminder to me that I we can think differently and I know that we can do it better if people are willing to make that cultural change and that mindset change.

Darren Evans:

Scott, I've loved having you here on the on the podcast, really appreciate your time and thanks for your insights, your wisdom, and I will take up that invitation from you to think differently and I will do it better, for sure brilliant.

Scott Tacchi:

Thank you very much your time down, thanks.

Darren Evans:

I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university, but it's not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.