Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
EP 16 - Am I Actually Making a Difference? How We Can All Drive Real Environmental Change.
In this episode of the Thrive in Construction Podcast, we're excited to have Cathal Ward, the environmental lead at Bouygues UK, with us. Cathal brings over five years of experience in shaping environmental strategies and fostering sustainable practices within construction. He delves into his role, highlighting the crucial differences between environmental and sustainability focuses, and the significant impact of strategic environmental planning from the earliest design stages.
Cathal shares valuable insights on the evolution of environmental roles within the industry, emphasising the importance of integrating environmental considerations early in the project lifecycle to enhance sustainability outcomes. He discusses the challenges of managing environmental impacts on site, the strategies for minimising these impacts, and the role of education in ensuring compliance and advancing environmental goals.
Join us as Cathal explains the nuanced roles of environmental leads versus sustainability officers, and how these roles interact to create a comprehensive approach to building sustainably.
🕒 Timeline:
0:00 Building Sustainable Construction Practices
9:13 Empowering Sustainability Through Education and Ownership
21:37 Climate Change Game and Team Passion
24:58 Empowering Small Steps for Positive Change
30:27 Career Pathway in Environmental Science
35:38 Embracing Interdependency for Growth
49:43 Making Impact Through Reflective Decision Making
54:00 Spread the Word for Growth
Bouygues UK: https://www.bouygues-uk.com/
Follow Cathal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathal-ward-6a356885/
👉 Tune into this insightful episode on the Thrive in Construction Podcast. Don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more discussions on the future of sustainable construction.
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Is the stuff that I'm doing making a difference? Maybe not, but it's important that we continue on. It's because if we take a step back and just say you know what it's going to happen, but if you know that you're not making a conscious effort towards reducing that impact, then you're kind of a bystander and you don't want to be the bystander. You want to be the person leading it. You want to be with the people, you want to create leaders.
Cathal Ward:It's really celebrating the small wins and that's that's vital, especially when it comes to climate change like it's really thinking okay, well, what next step can we do? And then, if you complete that, you're able to implement something that reduces any impact and you're like, okay, that's great. On to the Thriving.
Darren Evans:Construction Podcast. Today we have Cahill Ward with us. Cahill, great to have you here on the show, great to be here. Can you just go through for those people that are watching and listening the things that you are engaged in at the moment, what you do for the company that you work for?
Cathal Ward:So I am Environmental Lead for Buick UK. I've been in the company that you work for, yeah, so I am environmental lead for buig uk. I've been the company now for five and a half years. So we work in terms of the climate environment strategy, yeah, and, as well as that, help educate people so that when they go on site, they know what they need to do. So our team is known as the climate and environment team. It used to be part the environment side used to be part of the health, safety and environment. However, in the past two years, we've decided to branch away from that. Yeah, we've been seeing the ongoing pressure from the industry and within the in within the country of taking environmental legislation and we've then seen the importance of having to branch away from that. So, within the team, we you've got myself as the environmental lead, and then you have sustainability leads and sustainability officers.
Cathal Ward:However, how I like to look at it as in from the environmental lead side of point of view is that I look at what we do on site. I look at how we build. I make sure that how we build, we make as little impact as possible to the environment around us, and whereas the sustainability point of view. You're looking at the design, you're looking at the product that we're building. However, for me, it's very important that the people on site are aware that they need to put these barriers in place so that they create as little impact as possible, because we need to start off at a kind of well, you need to start off at a sustainable footing. If you're going to be building this very um, if you're going to be building this here low energy, low carbon building. However, if you don't have the right measures put in place during construction, then you may be doing more bad than good I understand, yeah, okay.
Darren Evans:So does your role start during the design phase? Does it start early conception? At what point generally are you built in across that reba timeline?
Cathal Ward:I suppose it would be. Maybe. Well, it depends off, well, it depends on the tender stage.
Darren Evans:So for me, so I think I'm probably talking like ideally, so maybe maybe I should rephrase my question is when is the ideal time to bring you in across those reba stages?
Cathal Ward:I'd say as early as possible, like, um, when you are thinking of the building that you want to build. If it is, you have an existing building. Um, yes, you need to look at the design side of things. However, from an environmental point of view, if you have a grade two listed building and you then need to then think of how you're going to be working around it, how you're going to renovate it, yes, you're then uplifting these grade two listed buildings, which are, on average, low performing in terms of carbon and energy, but you then need to look at the environmental aspects. You need to look at the environmental risks, how you're going to build around it, how you're going to minimize the risk to the building so that you can kind of uplift it into a better asset.
Cathal Ward:So, ideally, as early as possible, because, as well as that, we need to then be working with the ecologist to then make sure what surveys need to be carried out.
Cathal Ward:So, have you got the correct bat surveys carried out? Are there any invasive species on site? So, if there's a lot of landscaping, how is that going to be carried out without the spread of invasive species? Invasive species and, as well as that, if there's protected species, if you're working by a river, we need to then look at the um, we need to look at the time frame of the build so that you're not planning the construction side of things. And then, all of a sudden, you are doing your landscaping in the middle of summer and it's like, okay, well, you've got nesting birds surveys that need to be carried out. You go onto site there's nesting birds surveys that need to be carried out. You go onto site there's nesting birds. That's your whole project allowed. So it's making sure that I come in at an early stage so that I can look at the risks, make sure that it's reduced as possible so that we can start at the right foot to minimize any impact.
Darren Evans:Okay, so when we talk about the role that you do, does that cover an environment? Does it cover plants and animals? Does it cover that whole thing? Because I know from people that I've spoken to it can be quite confusing. When someone talks about ecology and making sure that different species are in the right place, sometimes the thing that comes to mind are animals, when actually the thing that the person's referring to are plants. Yeah, it's.
Cathal Ward:It's quite funny. I'm always known as the person for the tree hugger and even the people on site. It's like, oh, here comes cattle, okay, let's protect the trees. But there is so much more to the role. So, within our climate and environment strategy, we've got in five key pillars. We've got carbon. We have energy and water, waste and materials, biodiversity and in collaboration and upskilling, so kind of everything under that umbrella I cover and, yes, there are aspects from the sustainability point of view.
Cathal Ward:So you have the carbon scope three and you have operational energy. You have under higher standards. We have BREEAM, making sure that we order the correct materials that go on to the project. However, we have corporate water use. We have corporate energy use. We have our carbon scopes one and two. We have corporate water use. We have corporate energy use. We have our carbon scopes one and two. We have reporting environmental incidents and, as well as that, we have innovation. So, looking at what companies we work with so that we can minimise our impact and reduce our waste, we can put our materials back into the community that we aren't putting into the building.
Darren Evans:What would that look like? That sounds interesting. You're putting materials into the community that you're not putting into the building. What would that look like? That sounds interesting. You're putting materials into the community that you're not putting into the building. So give me an example of where that shows up.
Cathal Ward:I think it's quite evident in the construction industry is that we generate a lot of waste.
Cathal Ward:We generate far too much waste, and that waste could either look like quality control, so maybe something wasn't built the right way so it needs to be rebuilt. So you have waste there, you have damages, so something wasn't stored the right way. But unfortunately sometimes you have overordering. You're trying to prioritize the building schedule so you then say, okay, maybe 2% will overorder because there will be incidents to the material, some quality control, but when things go right, you then have this over ordered material and what has happened in the past in the industry is that it would just go straight to skips. So it's then having to then look at then from again, sustainability. But this sustainability isn't looking at the design, it's looking at the community, because that's looking at the community, because everything should be sustainable, you should be including the community. So it's then reaching out to charities, it's reaching out to schools, it's reaching out to third parties or other businesses, maybe through different means, to say we have this access material, it is pristine, it can be reused, do you want it?
Darren Evans:And it's really trying to just minimize waste in any way possible it's fantastic, and so at what point do you reach out to those schools and does that happen before you actually start on site, or do you wait until you've got that excess and then approach them?
Cathal Ward:I suppose I know we have a social value in team for each project. So from the get-go they are communicating with the local community and they're communicating with local schools and charities. So we have those contacts to start off with. And I think maybe what happens is that we say, okay, we're on site for the next two and a half years. What can we do? We can come in in, we can. Is there anything that you need done within the school, any repainting, anything built?
Cathal Ward:And I think we kind of have that in the back of our minds so that we can then say, okay, we see we have access material, but school down the road said that they needed I don't know repainted or they needed some works done. So then we can then say, okay, well, let's give back, we're building this building. Then say, okay, well, let's give back, let's, we're building this building here. However, let's give back to the community around us and in a way, that's kind of what I know. That's kind of what sustainability is all about. It's really not only protecting the environment, it's not only thinking ahead, but it's the inclusion and making sure that everyone around us is part of it and trying to then just uplift um, yeah, uplift the community around us that's great.
Darren Evans:Seems like what you're involved in is all-encompassing, yeah, which is, which is exciting.
Cathal Ward:It sounds like I can see it in your face that that you're excited about what you do and, uh, the impact that you're making, trying to make as well yeah, it is it, and sometimes it can be very overwhelming because you've just got so many levers that you need to be pulling, so many areas that you need to look into and that you need to better, and there are so many great innovations and technology out there to help you along the way. But it's really trying to focus in on, okay, what needs to be done first, which is what I really see. I see the industry going in a way where, like in the past three, four years, carbon is now at the forefront of everyone's mind. It's at the forefront of everyone's lips. It's what everyone is talking about, rightly so, because it is a massive problem that we need to fix. However, I'm I don't know, I think for me, I've always I've seen the importance of it. However, I've always thought okay, well, let's also. Let's not forget about water scarcity. Let's not forget about reducing energy use. Let's not forget about reducing the waste. Yes, all of that will feed into the carbon reduction.
Cathal Ward:However, it's important that we protect the environment around us. As well as that, it's making sure that people are upskilled on site, not only on carbon, but for what they do on site and how they act. For example, as I said you could be building the lowest energy-performing building. However, if you go in and you destroy the land that is already there, you pollute due to negligence then you've got this here great building. However, how you got there? It doesn't really. Yeah, you're kind of looking back to say, oh well, we've done it, but well, we've made a few mistakes along the way. However, it's important that we put the ownership onto the people to say okay, as we build it, what can we incorporate into the build so that we can start off on the right foot and deliver this building while being conscious of the environment around us?
Darren Evans:So it sounds like your role is very much one trying to persuade and encourage as much as to help people understand what the company's I wouldn't say legislation, but what the company's standpoint is or standard is on that particular area. Have I understood that right?
Cathal Ward:Yeah. So I think when it comes to climate change, when it comes to anything sustainability you comes to anything, sustainability you need to have the knowledge. You can't make a change I suppose it's with anything you can't make a change without knowing your impact. Without knowing your impact, you need to have the knowledge behind it. So, yes, a lot of it is about the upskilling and really putting it onto the colleagues that they are aware that any decision that they make goes towards the our kpis so kpis being gate informer, syndicators, yes, and and kpis to.
Darren Evans:To what, though? What? What are your kpis? Do you mean as boig, or do you mean as the, the area you personally?
Cathal Ward:I'd say, well, with week, we've got energy reduction. We've got, and we've got energy reduction by 10 percent and by 2025 we have the same for water or carbon scopes we've got and to be net zero scopes one and two by 2025.
Darren Evans:And these are goals that boeig have decided and reported back to the shareholders to say this is what we're going to achieve this is what we're going to achieve.
Cathal Ward:Yes, that's part of our climate environment strategy that we've put out, and then we've stamped it to say we are happy with these results. Well, we are happy with these targets and we now need to put the correct measures in place to achieve them. So I suppose it then really feeds into yes, you're doing it from a corporate side of things. However, it then feeds into a personal side of things as well, like when you're I don't know, it was my manager that had said it was like we do climate and environment like we go home and we are still very climate environment conscious.
Cathal Ward:Like it would be very rare that an accountant would go home and just think about numbers all day. Maybe they do, I'm not sure, but for us, it's really entwined in our lives and I think, yes, it's something that all companies should be doing. However, it's what you should be doing as a person. And going back to the question in terms of the upskilling, it's very important to me that people colleagues, friends, family are just aware of their impact and aware of what's happening around us, because it can be difficult to really look at what's happening and to really accept what's happening, and without the education there and, yes, without the education there you can't put the right measures in place to then reduce your impact towards it, whether it's something very small or something much larger yeah, most definitely.
Darren Evans:In order for you to change any behavior or habit, you need to be aware of the impact that that habit or behavior is having, as well as aware of other choices that you've got and other approaches that you've got to get an improved or better result.
Cathal Ward:Yes and no, okay. So yes, it's very important that, yes, you practice what you preach as much as you can.
Cathal Ward:So yes, it's very important that, yes, you practice what you preach as much as you can. However and this is, I think it was it's only maybe over the past year and a half I used to hate giving training. I used to hate being the one having to stand up and just go on and on about climate and environment and really just giving our facts and figures and saying, oh, this is how we should be working. Why did you hate it? Really just giving our facts and figures and saying, oh, this is how we should be working? Why did you hate it? I don't know. I just hated being the one that had the information and giving this information on to other people, because it was putting the responsibility on me to then put the responsibility on to them. However, it was last year. So, as part of our climate environment strategy, as I said, we're to be net zero scopes one and two by 2025 and minus 30% by 2030 for scope three. So with that, we've got this very ambitious goal. However, we need to then have tools behind it.
Cathal Ward:So one thing that we had done last year is that we went around all sites, we went through all support teams and we carried out a carbon workshop. So myself and my manager. He had done a lot of the preparation of the workshop, but it was very much from bare basics. What is climate change, straight up to? What is greenhouse gases is carbon. And then what you can do at a personal point of view in your personal lives to reduce carbon. And then what can we do corporately, and then what we need to change within the industry to reduce our carbon. And the training that I used to give was very power point. I'm just telling you all the figures here. I'm telling you how we should work, like a lecture style.
Cathal Ward:Yeah, whereas the workshops we gave them the information to say this is climate change, this is what's happening to the planet. And then we started to then ask the question well, now that you see this happening and you know the causes, what can you do in your personal life? And then, once we got them warmed up and then said, okay, what can we now do in the industry? And from that we had then taken down all the notes, all the suggestions that they thought we could do as Buick, and that has then been inputted into a carbon reduction plan. And after the workshop we then sent them the carbon reduction plan and said here were your well, of all the workshops that we had done, we then gathered I think it was maybe 62 actions and we said okay, we want you to choose maybe 30 from this year list that you're going to implement.
Cathal Ward:These were your decisions. You've said this in the workshop. Now it's for you to choose what you think and, yes, we've put them into mandatory priority just to give them a little bit of a nudge. But it's putting the ownership onto them. It's not me standing up and telling them what they should do. It's them telling me what they think we should do and then us giving them the tools for them to do it I love that.
Darren Evans:You know that is the best way to help people learn is to present them with the problem and and then allow them, I think, to come up with suggestions of how they can move forward, because I think what you're saying there is. Those people then within the company then have that sense of ownership because they came up with that idea. Yeah, and I think that's why so many people especially me, to be honest struggled at senior school is because I just felt as though unless I guessed what it was or knew what was in the teacher's head, then I would completely get it wrong. It just prevented me from free thinking.
Cathal Ward:I think it was the same as me. Like during university, I scraped by and majority of the tests because it was just having to just regurgitate information. But then coursework, I excelled, yeah, which is quite thankful for, otherwise I wouldn't have had the degree. But but yeah, it's being able to say, okay, go out, look at the and then come back with the solution. Yeah.
Darren Evans:And not only go out and ask people, go out and discover, go and take someone's information. Go out and take some ownership, which is what you're saying right, yeah. Because when all that ownership is on you, not only is it heavy, but it feels impossible, feels impossible. How can you tell someone to do in inverted commas the right thing and get them to care about doing the right?
Cathal Ward:thing I think well, yeah, education, because I think it's having to put that little spark into them to then say, okay, here's what the issue is. This is happening at an alarming rate. If you don't make changes now, it's only going to get worse. And kind of giving them the tool to see how that is happening, then it's for them to then, if they see how it's happening, then they can then put in tools to then say, okay, well, this is how I can do my part.
Cathal Ward:Something that we do within Buick as well is Climate Fres. Well, we call it a game. So you've got 42 cards and each of them have bits of information on it. So one card can say agriculture, transportation, greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide within the atmosphere, warming temperatures, melting ice sheets, change of biodiversity, change of biodiversity. And there's 42 of these cards and it's done in four stages.
Cathal Ward:But what you do is that you give them. So you have this workshop. You give one person a card each, they read it out and they put it onto the table and they have to try to figure out, from cause to effect, how they interlink. And after each round they're given more and more cards and then they're seeing how it's like a jigsaw where, oh, agriculture, you need fossil fuel, but then also you have other greenhouse gases, which then goes into the atmosphere, which then heats the planet, and they're able to make these steps. And by giving them the tools to do this, I'm just the facilitator. I'm here for any questions, but it's for them to figure out from A to Z how it happened, and once they've done that, they're kind of standing there thinking, god, that's what's happening. Okay, now that we figured that out, now we need to figure out what we need to do, what changes we need to make to reduce our impact along the way.
Darren Evans:Love that, I love that, I love that. That is a great approach. I've never heard of that game. Is that a game that, yeah, come came up with?
Cathal Ward:yeah, it's in climate fresque, is it? Is it started off? I can't remember cedric or frederick cedric, but I can't remember his name, but he had he's a lecturer and I think he was looking at the ipcc reports, um, and he had then got 15 graphs and then just linked them all together and then from that and he had done it with his um students, and then from that game, then kind of burst the climate fresh. It's, it's very big in france, which is why buick have taken it on and we're really pushing it out to our sites now. So last year we did the carbon workshops, kind of a tester purely focusing in on carbon, whereas now we're then focusing in on carbon, other greenhouse gases, and then the wider effect, not just within the industry yeah but then it's allowing them to kind of it covers the kind of covers what we've covered before, but at a wider scale, and that's awesome.
Darren Evans:I love that. We'll have to. I'll have to do some research on that. Maybe put the link to the game in the comment section, or yeah it's, I think, with.
Cathal Ward:I think you need to sign up for it, but it you can sign up for it, you can get trained on it, and then that's like. The whole thing is that the facilitator isn't someone who needs to have this knowledge. The whole point is that the facilitator is just someone who set the game, saw the benefit of it and now they can give it. So what we're aiming with Embweak is that, yes, the climate environment team will start off facilitating, because we've all said it. However, once site managers and administrators and engineers have said it, then they can come to us and say oh well, I thought that was very good, I would like to facilitate, and then they can then bring that forward like that so we can then take a step back and then concentrate on the strategy while they upskill each other love that.
Darren Evans:That's a really great idea. What do you love about working for boig?
Cathal Ward:I think it's the team. They. We've got such a strong team behind us that just care so much in terms of climate and environment and it can be good sometimes, actually it's. It's great because it was last year when I was doing the carbon workshop and then standing up and I think I gave maybe like 20 or 25 of them.
Cathal Ward:But you're standing up there every week talking about how screwed we are as a planet and it can give you, like decision fatigue where you're given so many options where you need to. You're given so many options to reduce your impact, reduce your carbon, and after a while you're like what's the point, like what am I, is the stuff that I'm doing making a difference? And then it's days like that where you can then maybe say that to the team and then it's like well, maybe not, but it's important that we continue on. It's because if we take a step back and just say you know what it's going to happen, but if you know that you're not making a conscious effort towards reducing that impact, then you're kind of a bystander and you don't want to be the bystander. You want to be the person leading it, you want to be with the people, you want to create leaders, so it's working with the team that really are passionate about the environment, that kind of, yeah, which is why I love working for boeck that's great.
Darren Evans:It reminds me of a story that I heard years ago and I don't think this is a true story, but I love the point that it makes, which from which is similar to what you're saying, I think, and that there was, uh, there was this man walking along at the, the shore and some tropical place, and there then the shore was littered with starfish, like thousands and thousands of starfish, and he saw another man or another person throwing the starfish back into the sea. He was just there on his own and there's literally littered with, you know, thousands and thousands of starfish. And the person walking along sees this man and is saying what are you doing this for? You know it's wasting your time. You are never going to save all of these starfish. You might as well just give up.
Darren Evans:And the person responded back and said well, it's making a difference to that one as you put it back in the sea and to this one as you put it back in the sea. And I think you know, for me that's a really important lesson is to say that it's not whether you think or you can see in your mind that you're going to achieve the goal in the way that you want it. But if it's a good thing to do, no matter the size of it, just do it, because it will make a difference yeah and I think that's it.
Cathal Ward:It's like it's really celebrating the small wins and that's vital, especially when it comes to climate change Like it's really thinking, okay, well, what next step can we do? And then, if you complete that, you're able to implement something that reduces any impact and you're like, okay, that's great. On to the next one.
Darren Evans:Made a difference? Yeah, because there's other people that I speak to as well and and they do feel that overwhelm and that overwhelm is a is a real barrier for lots of people yeah and I think that that there is a risk of someone bowing to that overwhelm at expense of making a difference in one area so in terms of you can't do anything more like because, yeah, feel overwhelmed, and so that overwhelm leads to paralysis and or even the attitude, well, there's no, there's actually no point because I'm not going to make a difference, so I'm not going to do anything.
Darren Evans:but but I would say, or I encourage people to say, well, you know, similar to that, that that starfish story by you doing one thing, it will make a difference, but until you actually do it, you will never make a difference. You have to do something.
Cathal Ward:Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah, and I think if there are times where you do get decision fatigue and you are feeling so overwhelmed and then think, well, what's the point? Like, is this really going to make a difference, sometimes I feel like it is okay to take a step back, like to really, yeah, take a step back on what you're doing, reflect on it to then say, okay, well, why was I feeling that way? What can be done differently? Like maybe the way that you're going about it, you're like with anything, repetitive strain, injury, but for the brain it's then taking that step back, having a cooler, and then going back into it with a new mind frame, getting maybe other people involved, tackling it in a different way. And by doing that you can then, like you say, see results, but maybe see it in a very small scale. But once you then take a step back, if many people are doing that at a small scale, it then starts to interlink and it becomes big scale yeah, massive, absolutely.
Darren Evans:So how did you get into this? So where did all this start for you? When you were a a young one, two, three, four year old young man, were you thinking, oh, I'm gonna make a difference to the environment, I think?
Cathal Ward:well, I grew up in in Ireland. Grew up on a farm, Proper farm, Proper farm chicken farm, chicken, farm cows, yeah so proper farm.
Cathal Ward:Early mornings, waking up by the cockerel, yeah so I don't know. We're surrounded like we live in the middle of nowhere, my friends always trying to find my house. It's awful when I'm back home, but I'm just surrounded by greenery. And my summer days were like you can't go into the town because you need to drive. So my holidays were just playing in the fields and just making dens in the hedgerows and I've always had that connection to nature from there. And then, when it came to what I wanted to do at university, I actually went into computer science. To start off, with the capitalist in me, it was tied between environmental science or computer science.
Darren Evans:So when you say the capitalist in you, what do you mean by that, I think? What was it that drove you to think that computer science was the thing for you? I?
Cathal Ward:could just see, like this was maybe 12 years ago and I could just see, okay, technology's evolving 12 years ago, and I could just see, okay, technology is evolving, I could maybe get on that and then get a good job and really I think I think at the time, at that age, I was like focused on money. I was like, okay, let's just focus in on the capitalist side of things that I'm going to.
Cathal Ward:Money was the most important thing to you at that time I think I was like I was weighing of computer in environmental science and I was like, oh well, what I? What job would I get in environmental science? What would I do?
Darren Evans:And I think that's a valid question Because I think the path if you went to computer science, the path of that is really easy for I think most people to understand. But environmental science I'm not quite sure that it's that clear.
Cathal Ward:Well, no, and I think over the past few years it's grown so much.
Darren Evans:Yeah, well now, and I think over the past few, years it's grown so much, yeah, but going back to what it is, yeah.
Cathal Ward:I was like and I had this discussion with my parents and they were immediately like computer science, you're not going to get a job in environmental science.
Darren Evans:Yeah, because they're even older. Right, they're even older. You go back to the time when they were younger. What are they? 80s, 70s.
Cathal Ward:That's it. It'll be like what professional tree hugger? I'm like, yeah, what, what, what can you, what can you get, yeah. So I was just like you know what? I'll go into computer science, get myself a nice cushy job, and I think that was it as well. Growing up on a farm I was. I remember having a conversation with my dad and I was like I'm going to get a job or I'm sitting in the office and I do not need to get wet, go outside. I'm done'm done with this, it's quite early mornings.
Cathal Ward:Yeah, so I was a computer science, but the first year of come the end of the first term, I was like I cannot do this for the rest of my life. Not doing it Because you were indoors, because you were in front of a screen.
Cathal Ward:Yeah, and I was getting no joy from it, I wasn't getting energy from it. And then I realized, like you know what? No, I want to do something that I love. So I love the environment. So I want to see what this will take me or where this will take me. So went over to the um, went over to the biology in labs, chatted with the head of environmental science and then got the transfer. So started environmental science and loved it during uni, like loved every single module that I did. And then I realised, god, there's so much that this could actually take me into. It can take me into environmental law. It can take me into environmental risk assessments, it can take me into construction risk assessments. Take me into construction. It can take you anywhere into planning.
Cathal Ward:And then it came to my placement year. So we had a mandatory placement year and I that's again, I did not know what I wanted to do or where I want to go, and it was only until my friend at the time he went in for a job interview at a construction firm. He went in for two and he got one. And then he said to me he's like oh well, they're hiring, so go see them. Went in, did the interview the next day and I was thinking, do I want to be in construction? Like what's the environmental impact there? Like you think of construction, you think of the environment, environment, they don't really gel together. But got the job, started an internship, and then from there, like it's history, it's, and I loved it and I it really. I think that really lit a fire under me to then think, okay, like construction, it is such an invasive industry to the environment and what can we do to reduce that impact. And from there it's just been yeah, it's been great and that's really it's.
Cathal Ward:I think it's been like a lot of little wrong decisions along the way have then got me to where I'm at today. Wrong decision so taking on computer science and then thinking, oh well, that then that actually put a year out. I then had to then stop uni and then go back the following year, okay. And then when I was trying to find a job, I was so indecisive I wasn't really interviewing and then my friend pushed me and I was like you know what, okay, let's go in here. So all of these little decisions that are indecisions kind of has brought me to where I'm at today and I cannot thank my past self enough for being so indecisive of what I wanted to do, for making me where I'm at today. That's great.
Cathal Ward:And your friend, yeah, and my friend as well, darren, thank you.
Darren Evans:That's awesome. And so, thinking back to your past self, what would you say is the thing that stands out as the learning, foundational learning elements that you see running through your life?
Cathal Ward:That I don't need to know everything.
Cathal Ward:And I think that, like what I had said in terms of when it came to carrying out training, I felt like I needed to know all the information, that if someone put up their hand and asked a question, I needed to answer it.
Cathal Ward:And it's okay to say I don't know Like with the industry, with climate, environment, it is ever-changing that it's okay not to know everything, it's okay to let people know that you don't know everything, but it's then to take that question, take it away, look into it and then come back. And I think that there's why my love for training has shifted over the past couple of years, because it's been putting the ownership more onto the people to kind of educate themselves. But then I'm there as a facilitator and I'm there to guide them down the right path. But then I'm there as a facilitator and I'm there to guide them down the right path, but I don't need to know everything. And I think that was like when we go back to university and the exams are not excelling so much. It's because I think Mitmabi came from there and I'm like, oh gosh, I don't know all of this. Therefore, am I going to make like a huge difference in my decision making, but it's taking.
Darren Evans:It's acknowledging that, taking a step back and learning, and then taking that knowledge and then putting it forward I think that what you just said there is really profound, and it reminds me of what young children are like. They know that they don't know everything, but they are so comfortable with not knowing everything that learning becomes fun. And I think the older that you get, there can be this defensive shell that you build around that actually, if I don't know everything, that means I'm not good enough, or it doesn't mean I'm intelligent or that I'm going to feel successful or empowered or can overcome problems, and then that actually prevents learning, doesn't it? Yeah?
Cathal Ward:It's yeah it's pushing yourself outside the comfort zone. It's to say, okay, I'm so good at A, I know a little bit about B, but since I only know a little bit, I'm just going to stick with A. And it's pushing yourself out of that comfort zone to then say, okay, well, let's learn a bit more and see what this route can take me. And yeah, it's having the guts to step forward and do that, because it can be hard. It can be hard just to step out of your comfort zone.
Darren Evans:It's always hard outside the comfort zone, yeah, but I always say and I say this to my kids it gets on their nerves. I say the magic happens outside your comfort zone. The more you're outside, the more magic you'll see yeah no, always push yourself out of it, but it's right.
Darren Evans:So what would you, what invitation would you give then for someone that is a executive of a large, either manufacturing company that supplies to the construction industry, or even a large contractor, or a large architect, a large firm where someone is maybe feeling a fear of going into that zone of development or outside of that zone of comfort, because outside of the zone of comfort means that someone's going to get on their back because they've not delivered the financial figures or things have not gone as predicted. Yeah, what? What invitation or what thoughts do you have if you were to send a message to those people?
Cathal Ward:lean on and to rely on the people within the business. That's it like they're. They're the ones making the everyday decisions and they're the ones that have the greatest impact, and putting your faith within the people can just be the best thing that you can do. And, again, making sure that they're equipped to always better themselves so that they make the right decisions, not only for the business, but then for the environment around us, and to also learn from mistakes, like you've got.
Cathal Ward:Within Buig, we pride ourselves in innovation and every project we try to push for a new innovation. So they're at the very start of the project. I sit down with them and say, okay, well, from an environmental point of view, what can we bring in? And a lot of projects are trialing it, trialing these new innovations for the first time, and not all of them are great and and it's okay to say, well, we, we tried, it wasn't great, but now we can focus in on something else. However, if we just continue on the way that we work, without trialing the new innovations, without the fear of failure, then you can't better your performance and you can't better the ways of working I keep coming out with these things, that I've these little one-liners, but you, you do what you've always done.
Darren Evans:Get what you've always got. Yeah, what got you here won't get you there yeah that's two things that are ringing around in my mind from what you said and I love the way that you have articulated that that it's the people that are on the ground that you need to listen to yeah. And it's the people that will make the difference to you and what you do as a senior member of the company, and you need to trust them.
Cathal Ward:Yeah, that's it. It's, yeah, trusting people and that's all you can really do. If you're the one, I suppose, then it's the whole the leadership. If you're the one, I suppose, then it's the whole still the leadership. Like, if you want to be the leader and to just kind of rule the way of how things should be, you're not really going to get that far. It it's the people that make the company and it's the decisions that they make that will better the company in the end. And if you're very much not comfortable in terms of putting that trust within it, then you're not really going to get that far.
Darren Evans:Are you a leader using that same definition?
Cathal Ward:In different contexts, I'd be the leader.
Cathal Ward:I think I'd see myself not as a follower, but not as a leader, but as a participant, and but then, at the same time, I would then see us all as leaders, and as we all should be leaders we are, whether it's in your personal life or in your corporate life, you should be leading the way for yourself and also you should be leading the way for others around you.
Cathal Ward:It always like I can't always bring it back to like this sense of community where you're not going to get far on your on your own. There's only so far you can go with your own knowledge and with your own expertise, and you need to then rely on other people. So, yes, you can lead yourself down to a certain point. However, it's then turning around and relying on someone else and then maybe letting them be the leader for a bit, and then you can follow, or as well. If you turn around and see that someone is struggling, then you can become the leader for a bit and then you can follow, or as well, if you turn around and see that someone is struggling, then you can become the leader, not just in yourself, but then for them. So I would see myself as a leader, but I would also see all of us as leaders I love the way you've done that.
Darren Evans:I think at the, at the lowest level, you have got dependency, so I'm dependent on someone else. I can't do anything without someone else. The next step up from that is independent, and I think that's where most people get stuck. I can do it myself and I think in that role that some people may call leadership, the attitude may be if you don't, if you want it done, right, then do it yourself, because you can't trust anyone else. But the highest level, which is the one that you're talking about, is the interdependency. I need you as much as you need me, because without us doing it together, we're not able to get to the level that is that we want to get to, because we both need to work with each other. Yeah, because you need, we need to be higher than independent, yeah, is that that interdependency, which I think is what you're talking about?
Cathal Ward:yeah, it's really that, it's the trust, the trust going both ways, but, yes, being interdependent. That, like what I said, there can only be you can only go so far with yourself, with your own knowledge. But it's okay then to lean on someone else and to then also allow them to lean on you good.
Darren Evans:What projects have you worked on that you're really proud of and you think, ah, do you know? That just puts a smile on my face. Or what projects have you seen that you're like that's awesome I.
Cathal Ward:I think one of my favorite projects was our tower hamlets Town Hall, which was the regeneration within Whitechapel. It's part of the regeneration project within Whitechapel and it was a refurbishment of a Grade II listed building, so it was the old hospital. Now it's been refurbished into the new town hall. But I think what I loved so much about it is that we've got so much history here in London. We've got all of this current stock that is just underperforming in terms of operational energy and carbon, and this is then when the whole environment and sustainability link in together because they are so interlinked. So, yes, the building has been designed so that it can be uplifted into a better asset. However, from an environmental point of view it was a pain. But I feel like the more complicated a project is in terms of environment, the more joy I get out of it, because I'm like more work to do. But it's it's interesting work because it says, oh, there's such a high impact, but what can we do to reduce that impact? And I think it was just seeing this kind of shell of a building being uplifted into this brand new asset and then kind of being part of that and now looking out in london to then say, oh gosh, there's so many buildings like that, there's so much work that needs to be done, so what's next? Like what else can we bring in? And like it's a big focus of us to really focus in on the refurbishment side of things and to really uplift that. But as well as that, we've had and we have a few projects that are coming up where they're so close to rivers and with that you've then got some protected species on site. So it's then looking at how we build around that and how we accommodate to the nature around us. Because, again, we can't be building these great projects but if we don't start off on the right foot, then it's kind of fall for nothing. And it's being able to take a step back and really work with the team to then say, okay, well, what can be done? How can we ensure that we build on time, sustainably and reducing the risk around us? But I'd say, yeah, the biggest one would be Tower of Hamlets, town Hall, but I'd say every project. But I think it's again going back to it's the people in the projects.
Cathal Ward:Like my role, I'm kind of like it's a multi-site role. So, yes, I look at the corporate side of things. But I am that point of contact for everyone on site. So each project has got an environmental champion and there, when I first started the role, or when I first started in Buick five years ago, five and a half years ago, they would just be my point of contact. That was it so.
Cathal Ward:But I've now kind of been able to create a community across the projects for each environmental champion to take ownership of the climate environment on site. So I'm there from the very start, reducing the risk, ensuring that everyone on site the breed team, subcontractors that they're aware of the risks and what part they play on reducing that risk. And then the environmental champion side of things. It's putting more ownership on them to carry out inspections, to then check these risks.
Cathal Ward:Before it was just the climate environment team coming on site, checking it and then leaving, whereas now I've been able to get all of these environmental champions once a month sit down with them, go over any updates on the project. What I've started to do now is have them go on to each other's projects. So once a quarter one of them will go on to another project, have a look at how they're doing things so that they're able to then take back any knowledge that one environmental champion may have onto the other, onto their own side, which is great for me, because they can now start relying on each other. Well, I can take a step back and focus on the corporate side of things, and it's like cross pollination, isn't it?
Cathal Ward:yeah, you're the head beekeeper and you're uh, and your bees are doing a great job well, I'd also like to see myself as a bee, not just the beekeeper, so I'd like to be in there and helping out as well. Yeah, that that's great Good.
Darren Evans:Well, I think we are ready to go into the demolition zone. Perfect, are you ready? I'm ready, let's do it. Have you got PPE?
Darren Evans:All right and welcome back. We are now in the demolition zone. Feels good in the demolition zone, right, it does. This is the place where we get to talk about myths and we debunk them, destroy them and get rid of them. Perfect. So you've come to us today and you've created this thing. I mean monstrosity. Yeah, for the people that are listening to this, there are a number of pillars. I count one, two, three, four pillows or five, maybe five pillars, and then it looks like a structure on stilts. I think I probably should have spent more time paying attention in my, uh, english classes. I was younger so I could have the vocabulary to actually describe what's there. But, um, but it's great. What does it represent?
Cathal Ward:so I think very much. The theme of today's session has been about empowerment and putting the ownership on, having the ownership to make change. However, like we discussed before, you have so many decisions to make. You may have decision fatigue and you're thinking what can I do as an individual to make a difference? And you may think being like well, I can do the best I can do. However, I'm just one person. What can I do? However, like what you said with the story with the starfish, you are making a difference. However, you as an individual can only do so much, but we're all individuals.
Cathal Ward:A company is made up of thousands individuals. The country is made up with millions of. A company is made up of thousands of individuals. The country is made up with millions of individuals. The world is made up billions and, at the end of the day, yes, we're individuals, but we act as a community. So one thing that we do can impact another person. So what I've done here is each block that, you see, is one individual, and the myth is I, as an individual, can't make a change, but you can.
Darren Evans:So I just want to sit in that for a little bit. So, as an individual, sometimes I can feel like I can't make a difference. I can't make a change and that change is not big enough for me to even warrant the effort that it takes to try and change. There's no point trying, or there's so much to do. Even my limited and restricted impact is going to be so insignificant it's going to make no difference. Correct, so why am I even bothering? That's it. That's the myth, right, that's it in. That's. That's the myth, right, that's it. But in, what you've created is going to demonstrate that one thing can make a significant or one person can make a significant impact. That is what I'm hoping in the demolition, okay. So destroy away, destroy the myth, okay so we're all.
Cathal Ward:So we're all here as individuals. However, one individual and it then creates a knock-on effect. So fantastic.
Darren Evans:So for those people that are listening, what happened there is there were three blocks that were removed and the structure now is destroyed.
Cathal Ward:Yeah, the myth is gone the myth is gone, but also what it represents is that, yes, you may think that you can't make a big difference. However, what you do affects other people. What you do affects the planet around us. You can make change, and even though, if you can't see the change, other people can see it. Other people may be inspired to then do it, and then, with that, we have a knock on effect, so that the small steps that you make will then be huge leaps and bounds fantastic.
Darren Evans:Thank you, thanks for that. Love that. Just thinking now about someone that maybe is listening to or watching this, that's in a position that you were 12 odd years ago, when you were in university, maybe doing a course that you weren't really loving and enjoying, or maybe felt as though I don't really know what to do. I know that I don't want to do this, but I can't see how the thing that I want to do is going to lead somewhere. What advice would you give them? How, what, what principles would you share with them to to help them?
Cathal Ward:I always recommend that you take a step back. Don't make rash decisions just off the beat. It's always important that you take a step back. Don't make rash decisions just off the beat. It's always important that you take a step back and reflect, like, if I didn't, I could have continued on doing computer science. I could have just stuck with it, because I could have thought you know what? This will get me a nice cushy job, it'll be fine.
Cathal Ward:But I took a step back, I reflected and I thought you know what, even though this is the safe option to stay on to do computer science, it's not the option that I want to do. It's not the one that's going to bring me joy and, at the end of the day, that is what is most important as you as a person, is that doing things that bring you joy. So reflect and then, if you think that, okay, path B will take me down this road that I know I will enjoy. However, I don't know what the outcome will be. It's still a road, in my opinion, I feel like you should take, because doing something for the sake of it or you don't get fulfillment out of it is not really something that you should be doing unless it is better for the planet I love that advice, I love that perspective and, uh, I'm grateful for that, uh, for that advice that you've just shared with everyone.
Darren Evans:Um, just as a as a last question before we wrap up, I'm wondering if there's anything that we have not discussed that you think is needed to be brought out or talked around.
Cathal Ward:I know I may be repeating myself, but it's really focusing in on the decisions that you make. So obviously we'll have a lot of people within the construction industry watching this. Have some time to step back and and reflect. Whether you're a site engineer, whether you're a site manager, whether you're ceo of a business, take a step back and reflect and think about things that you can implement within the business to make it a more environmentally friendly place, whether it's upskilling the people that you have working within the business, whether it's upskilling your team, whether it's upskilling yourself, reaching out to competitors to find out what they're doing along their journey and reaching out to new and upcoming businesses that offer innovative ways of working to reduce your environmental impact. I think my one advice is that it's always best to reflect before making big decisions and when it comes to the environment, we need to be making these decisions. So the more time you reflect, the more time that you see from cause to effect, the better decisions can be made.
Darren Evans:Carl, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you here on the show. I've appreciated your time, your wisdom and your perspective. Thank you, thank you. I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it.
Darren Evans:I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university but is not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.