Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 43 Break​​ing Barriers: 'Women in Property' Chair on Succeeding in Construction

• Darren Evans

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In this episode of Thrive in Construction, we talk to Jennifer Winyard, National Chair of Women In Property and Barratt Redrow PLC. Women In Property is an organisation dedicated to supporting women in the built environment. With over 37 years of experience, Women in Property is committed to helping women break barriers, offering networking events, and mentoring young women aspiring to enter the industry.

Jennifer shares essential advice for young women interested in a career in construction and property, discussing key attributes to develop and ways to highlight their skills. We dive into the realities of being a female professional in a male-dominated industry, as well as the importance of having a support network that understands the challenges of balancing work and personal responsibilities.

Jennifer’s journey from architectural training to town planning reveals the diversity of career paths within the built environment, and her insights are invaluable for those seeking success in this evolving field.

Tune in to learn:

  • How to get started as a young woman in construction and property
  • Attributes to stand out and succeed in the industry
  • The importance of networking and support for women in construction
  • How to navigate a career in a male-dominated field

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LINKS

Follow Darren here: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
Follow Jennifer here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-winyard-mrics-mrtpi-8580b519/
Women in Property: https://www.womeninproperty.org.uk/



Jennifer Winyard:

So I was in planning consultancy for seven years, so that's where I started when I graduated. I'd done a lot of different sectors in terms of tourism, commercial, and done a lot of retail. I mean it wasn't necessarily an area I wanted to get a pigeonholed into. Housing development, I think, lends itself to be a lot broader.

Jennifer Winyard:

In terms of the variety, in terms of variety, but also how much you get to be involved in a scheme. So I will be involved in a scheme from finding the greenfield. So I will find a piece of land, use my planning knowledge, assess it. Will this potentially come forward in 10 to 15 years? Yes, write to the landowners, negotiate to agree a price. But take it a step back. You actually get to see it all the way through. So you've got this site that then you have to work with a local authority, demonstrate why it's deliverable, why it should be suitable for housing and why it is suitable for housing. You work on every aspect of the scheme. So I think as a planner, it's actually broadened my knowledge and expertise as a planner being involved in that side of things. You're not just seeing, you're not just preparing the planning application, submitting it and then passing it back to your client. We are the client. So it involved in every single step, cradle to grave how does that conversation start, then, with the landowner?

Darren Evans:

You've identified the land that you think has got potential, so you write to the landowner.

Jennifer Winyard:

Really as simple as that and normally letters, because we deal with a lot of farmers and still people that don't really deal a lot with email, and that's another part of my job that I absolutely love meeting all sorts of different people from different backgrounds and actually educating them on the process and land acquisition. So simple as that. Write a letter to a landowner, just say can we meet, Are you interested? I think your land has potential. And then start the conversation.

Darren Evans:

Who is it that has inspired your persuasive skills? Maybe this is a childhood thing, maybe it's a university thing, I don't know. But what do you think of that, that stuff?

Jennifer Winyard:

yeah, that's a tough one actually, because my, my career was quite organic. Um, I started out when I was about 10 or 11. I was doing, um, an art bad um, a girl guides, and I met a lady through the examination process and her daughter was an architect and she talked to me a lot about it, to me, and it was something that really sparked my interest. I'd always been really um, I always loved art, I love, loved the built environment, I loved buildings, so that just that fascination just sort of grew and from that moment, everything that I picked at school, my GCSEs, my A-levels, were all around becoming an architect, and the process to become one was to go to university at the time to do architecture, which I did. So I think I also got some quite odd career advice as well.

Jennifer Winyard:

So when I was about 15, one of the teachers I went to an all-girls grammar school. One of the teachers, I think, was quite traditional, quite old school, and she said to me why would you want to go into a male-dominated career? And for me, I'd been focusing on this for so long, what felt so long when you were at school and I just thought that's just a really odd thing to say. That's just not encouraging at all, that's not persuasive, that's you know the contrary. There was no other suggestion on what you might want to do. Oh, so it was just a flat out. It was just a flat out, just very, very odd thing to say. I had a very, very supportive design technology teacher. Actually, at the time I was doing a project that was quite well environment based, so I'd even picked like projects and things so I could, um, so I could research into all these things I was really interested in and I think if it wasn't for her, maybe I would have questioned it more. But I don't remember really thinking, oh, I'm not going to do that, I just kept going. And then the rest is history.

Jennifer Winyard:

Really, because I went to university, started architecture, I really loved it and I think what I thought it was going to be was very conceptual. But probably the reality was you get less than 1% of qualified architects actually working on the really fantastic, amazing architects journal schemes. And I think one day it just dawned on me that I might be one that might not be one like that, but possibly designing extensions or retail extensions or something like that, but I really something more common. But I did my part one and I took a year out in practice and that was when I really and that was that was really good because it was in a small rural practice so we were doing lots of barn conversions and I got really involved in the schemes and I had quite a lot of responsibility, which was great, and I started working with planners on the other side as well and that was quite interesting because architects and planners, you know, they don't always see eye to eye. And that was really interesting for me because I thought why is this? I'd always had such a huge fascination with the built environment and I thought there's something in this and by that point I'd actually decided that I still wanted to stay in the built environment, but I didn't necessarily want to be an architect.

Jennifer Winyard:

So I went back to Newcastle after my part one and did an MSc in town planning and part of my dissertation was actually how architects and planners work in practice and actually that starts from an education point of view, that actually architecture students don't necessarily know what planners do and vice versa, the interconnection between those two areas. It leads back to the importance of actually getting into schools and explaining what sort of careers you can go into, because I think architecture is very apparent. People know what architects are, but there's lots of other professions in the built environment we deal with. I, you know, manage very, very large project teams now with a lot of different professionals doing with a different perspective, and that was where my passion for that really started. So looking at maybe, the differences in the education and what could potentially happen with the educational system in the UK anyway, it was obviously a very, very small part of my dissertation or my MSc, but it was something that always really stayed with me.

Jennifer Winyard:

So when I qualified and got a job in Leeds a town planning consultancy that was when I knew I would need to win business at some point.

Jennifer Winyard:

But I really, really wanted to make friends in the industry that did other things, not just planning, just so I could get a lot more knowledge about other professionals and how we could all work together better. So I joined the Young Planners, your Net Association and I joined Women in Property too, and at Women in Property I started out on their education roadshow scheme where we would go into schools and talk to 14 and 15 year olds about a day in the life of what I was doing as a planner, what sort of teams we worked in to sort of really encourage them to start to research what other areas they could go into. But the importance of raising that really was you need to get out and start building your network really early and those people that I organized that with I'm still friends and I still work with them now. So the importance of making friends in the industry at a very young age is something that I would advocate for young people.

Darren Evans:

I'm seeing a theme here, and this theme is around influential women in your life. So the girl guide who was the leader of the girl guide, her daughter had an influence on you. Your teacher at school that was also female. And then this combination then of having to balance what one person's saying, what someone else is saying and then what you're wanting. How do you bring and harmonize that together, which, it seems like your negotiation skills probably started with this um teacher at school. It's like why? Why do you want to do that? That's, that's bonkers. You know from what you're saying there.

Darren Evans:

She probably did you a favor very much so and so that's that's interesting, though, because you're actually the head of women in property across the country yes, I'm national chair of women so what does that mean? Being national chair of women in property?

Jennifer Winyard:

so for 2024 to 25, so it's a 12 month term. I am the voice of women in property, um. The role is very, very broad, though. Um I lead nsg, which is our national steering group, and that comprises of all the regional chairs, so we've got seven regional branches, central Scotland, all the way down to Devon and Cornwall which is one of our event hubs which is connected to Southwest, so I covered the UK.

Jennifer Winyard:

We've even relaunched an event hub in Northern Ireland, which is very exciting. So part of my role is managing and leading the branches. I myself have been involved in 18 years, mainly in Yorkshire and the North East. So I was regional chair in Yorkshire and the North East back in 2014 and since then been heavily involved in our mentoring program that we do and I've led on the student awards nationally for the last four or five years. So I've been involved at a regional and national level of women in property. So that's part of my role leading the branches managing the branches, helping them with events, mentoring, student awards, their outreach but then also working with our national exec team on partnerships that Women in Property wants to strengthen with other sectors and other organisations in the built environment and property and construction.

Darren Evans:

It sounds full on.

Jennifer Winyard:

It's full on. It's very, very busy. There's not a week that is dull. I'm travelling a lot, but that's the best part of the role, though actually going and spending time with the other branches and the other committees. They're so different because they work in different markets for a start, so what might work very well in North West, in Manchester, for example, may not work as well in South Wales.

Jennifer Winyard:

London is very competitive. There's lots of organisations work as well in South Wales. London is very competitive. There's lots of organisations across London and the South East. So we'll tend to do slightly different events in the South East, as we will do Yorkshire or Scotland.

Jennifer Winyard:

But that's been the most exciting part of it because I've been involved in Yorkshire and the North East for so long, so I know what sort of events run well there and what our membership is like, working between Leeds and Sheffield and Newcastle. But some of our other branches are doing just some amazing things. So Central Scotland have particularly they've done a really, really good outreach program with some local schools the last 12 months and really got into the schools and delivered that, and that's something that has been really, really, um, a real passion of mine this year to promote our outreach program and making sure that we're a bit more um, we're just rolling that across the organization a bit more and actually learning from each other and being able to deliver it in different parts of the organization what do you see, then, um, as as themes in schools.

Darren Evans:

When you speak to the girls in school, um, that creates a significant barrier for them to either get into the construction industry or, similar to yourself, actually be an architect. What themes have you?

Jennifer Winyard:

seen. I think there's a few different things here. I think there's still a little bit of a misconception what sort of roles you can do in property and construction. It's not all site-based. I mean, there's still only 15 of the construction industry are female and only two percent on the site. So I think there's a real, real problem with role models actually in the industry.

Jennifer Winyard:

That's one thing I referenced knowing what an architect was, you know the design buildings. I didn't necessarily know what a planner was or a planning consultant was until I'd worked in practice. So I was 21, 22 at the time. I'm not sure that has changed and that's like 20 years ago, um, talking to some young ladies now, you know, still at school, still not necessarily being um encouraged to do have careers in the built environment. House building is another one um, just the lack of knowledge actually, I think, of what you can actually do, and it's not all site-based. There's lots of roles land and planning, sales, finance and it's not just females either. I mean our outreach program is very much focused on young people and there's a real social mobility issue there.

Darren Evans:

So, going back to women in property, what's its overall objective?

Jennifer Winyard:

So women in property is in our 37th year and we've just had our 18th year of the student awards program, so we've been around for a significant amount of time for coming up to our 40th anniversary. I think it comes down to how relevant we are. Is women in property still relevant? And we've thought about that at length and got a watching brief on opening up the membership to all whether women in property as an organization, as I said, is still relevant at the moment. We consider it still is and we've recently done a member survey. Um, and you know, asked people whether membership is to be opened up and it's inconclusive because there are still areas where women see the benefit of. So take mentoring, for example. We have a unique program at women in property. We train about 100 people a year where we match female to female. It's a role model mentoring program, female to female, but in the built environment. So it's not planners to planner architect to architect.

Jennifer Winyard:

There's a real benefit there and as far as we know, there's no other program that matches quite like we do and there still is such a lack of role models in the built environment. So for me, at various points in my career and I've had quite a few mentors in my career, male and female I'd spent six years in planning consultancy. I wasn't really sure whether this was something I wanted to do for much longer. I was doing a lot of retail and tourism and I really wanted to get more into the housing sector, just get a little bit more experience, but just learn some new skills. An opportunity came up to move into house building, into strategic land and land acquisition, which would be a very, very different skill set to what I had in consultancy.

Jennifer Winyard:

The acquisition side was completely new to me and I had a mentor, a woman in property, who was in facilities management so very, very different to what I'd trained in and she was just incredible. She really encouraged me to think about those transferable skills that I had. So we touched on earlier about the project management skills, the communication skills, the fact that I'd built quite a really good network at that point, so I knew a lot of people in the sector that weren't necessarily just in planning. So she really encouraged me to take that leap of faith and to go into a different sector, which I honestly don't think I would have done. I wouldn't have had the confidence to do so if she hadn't supported me in that, and 10 years down the line, whilst I'm a different house builder, it's something that I'll never look back on. It was such a catalyst moment that helped me make that change, and that was all down to the mentoring programme.

Darren Evans:

Was there one thing that she said that made the difference to you, or would you say it was a succession of comments and experiences that you had with her that made the overall impact?

Jennifer Winyard:

Succession. Definitely, because we probably met for maybe a year, 18 months, and I already knew her before we were matched as well, so she was a good friend of mine who was just quite a lot more senior. I think it was that support that actually I could do it and supported my self-belief that it was something that I did have the skills to do, even though I hadn't necessarily done it before.

Darren Evans:

I would be able to use other skills that I'd learned to learn new skills who is there that you don't know so well, that you would say is a mentor to you? Maybe, maybe male, maybe female, but who is it that you look up to and are like, yeah, this person has really made an impact on my life one that springs to mind.

Jennifer Winyard:

We at Barrett's have a catalyst program for female leaders, again acknowledging that females do need support within the business. There are less role models and through that program that started in 2018 and I did in 2019 when I joined I got matched with our regional finance director and he he has been really instrumental in just my career at Barrett's so he would be one in what ways he helps you.

Darren Evans:

Can you share any, anything that would give an indication of of how he is, how he has helped you? And the reason I'm asking this question is because there's a lot of men out there that really see the influence that they can have in a positive way on women, but are really quite unsure of what to do and there's a real fear of them saying or doing the wrong thing, so that gets them to do nothing. But if you've got someone that has had a really positive impact on you, my hope is that we can empower some of the men. Yeah, to try and help empower some of the women, because we all need encouraging, but just in different ways, right?

Jennifer Winyard:

yeah, very much so, and it's the whole male ally point, isn't it? It was slightly different type of mentoring. It was actually reversed mentoring, reciprocal mentoring. So the whole point was actually we were matched with more senior people but so they could understand our perception and our perspectives moving up through the ranks and the business. So it was very much. We were both learning all the way through those male allies and actually encouraging them to support and come to events. Um, lots of the time they actually find them more comfortable and more inviting and more friendly, and that's what we found with some of the events that we do at women in property. They're generally open to all. Um, we have lots of male allies who support and sponsor our events and would say just that that actually the environment that we create is very, very supportive and inclusive so I'm interested to um, to find out now what you think or what you have done for those people that have that you have mentored.

Darren Evans:

What have you found a really effective way of mentoring a mentee? So we've spoken about you being a mentee, yeah in terms of when you are a mentor. How have you approached that um in a way which is given your mentee the best of you? Yeah, okay.

Jennifer Winyard:

Yeah, that's a really good question because I would. I would actually say I. I probably get a lot more out of being a mentor than a mentee because you learn so much from other people and their experiences. I've done different types of mentoring and I think there's there's differences depending on what what you're doing. So, for example, I've mentored people through their RICs and their RTPI charterships.

Jennifer Winyard:

So RTPI Old Time Planning Institute that is more goal-driven in terms of it's to achieve charterships. So there's various stages throughout that writing logbooks, writing a report and having core competencies that you need to meet. That's very similar with the RACS as well, so there's a slightly different way of going about it because it's a little bit more stringent in terms of what you have to meet. So I think there's a lot more. I think you can be a lot more challenging and a lot more there's a lot more emphasis on them being organised in terms of meeting the deadlines, because it's very deadline driven and I love planning, I love surveying and house building, but I'm really passionate about the other things mentoring, outreach, student awards.

Darren Evans:

I'm interested now just to talk about some of the things that I think are unique to women in the workplace and this is just my opinion, so please correct me if I am bonkers and I'm wrong, but women will predominantly, if there's an aging parent, take care of them. Women will predominantly again, it's not in all cases if there are children, take the lead on the care of the children, and so I'm interested to really get your views on what organisations can do to support women in a better way maybe than they do at the moment, and that's not because they're being negligent, but just because they're maybe not aware. So, just looking at that, maybe there's someone listening here that wants to be a little bit reflective and think well, you've got so for me as an example. Uh, someone that works for me, her father, is getting older.

Darren Evans:

Of all of her siblings, she is the one that takes most care of him, and he's in his 90s sorry, he's in his late 80s and he has falls from time to time. He needs to go to hospital from time to time, and so the primary responsibility of that sits very much with her. So what are your thoughts on what you think that someone like me can do to make sure that I'm not just aware of the women that have got child care responsibilities, but also the women that have got responsibilities for aging parents yeah, and it's interesting, you refer to women, which I think historically because women picked up a lot of those other roles, I think and traditionally women maybe have taken time out and then come back part-time.

Jennifer Winyard:

It's a role for everybody and this is where we need to get to.

Jennifer Winyard:

It's educating everybody and actually I think there's been some improvement since the pandemic and the emphasis on people working at home more and it being more flexible.

Jennifer Winyard:

I think employers, we need to be more trusting of their employees as well and that actually, as long as the job is done, you don't necessarily have to be at your desk nine to five every day, as long as it's being achieved, as long as it's getting done. I think also making it more accepting that men can take responsibility for the child care and the other caring responsibilities too, and that becoming more of the norm. I think some businesses are very good at it, but there's still a way to go. I think in terms of actually the mindsets changing that it is acceptable for a couple that they may both want to go back four days a week, but do the alternate days and the childcare in between. That will that will be a step in the right direction, because otherwise I think the industry is really struggling in terms of mid-career. We've done a lot on mid-career and losing women in this sector and other sectors. But I can talk more specifically on the built environment.

Jennifer Winyard:

That actually is not flexible enough and that's why women are leaving mid-career, and that's why there are some women that are leaving mid-career Site is a difficult one because it is less flexible. I think more office-based roles and sales-based roles can become more flexible. Site is a tricky one still. I think there's a long way to go there. I want to mention our building balance survey.

Jennifer Winyard:

We've recently done a building balance survey at women in property that helen james has led on in our southwest brand, which mainly on the child care responsibilities rather than than caring responsibilities. But I think, as you say, caring responsibilities is definitely within this and I think that affects a lot a larger part of the workforce. This is specifically to child care, but actually the fact that the expense of child care is just so instrumental in this too and affecting people actually being able to go back to work and working flexibly so what do you think I could do as an employer to be more aware of this?

Darren Evans:

I think, when you talk about care responsibilities whether it's a young child or whether it's an aging parent, care is care right in terms of it takes your time, it takes your heart as well as your mind.

Darren Evans:

I think you raise a really good point about focusing on the end result does the job get done, as opposed to? I want you to be here for this period of time, but I'm just wondering what, if you were to kind of give me like these, darren, are the top three things that you need to be aware of or that you need to do to make sure that you're facilitating people, especially in their mid-career, because this, this lady that that works for me, she is bang smack in the middle of her career yeah, yeah, I think, as an employer and more senior people I've worked with in businesses, I think they need to demonstrate that this is okay, that actually everyone can work flexibly.

Jennifer Winyard:

And just saying that you can work flexibly is one thing, but actually not sending the emails late at night saying we're working flexibly and everyone putting that into practice, and that everyone across the board, um, to make it very inclusive, I think, more support around those particular times whether mentoring is helpful, but just acknowledging the fact that, um, someone might just maybe not be, as maybe not be working full-time for a little bit. That doesn't mean that they're not going to come back and this is probably a temporary situation and the support whilst this is happening and then the actual encouragement of them coming back.

Darren Evans:

I like that. Yeah, that works for me. Yeah, I can do that. I know what that looks like. Well, jennifer, I think that we can go to the demol. We are now in the demolition zone and you have created an arrangement of bricks. I will call that an assortment for those people that are not watching, that are listening. Um, you have got a few. You got four. I'll be precise. You've got four mustard colored bricks in amongst some, uh, wooden colored bricks. Is that a wooden color? Is that even a color? I don't think it is. You've got three, three red bricks off to uh, off to the side. So this is the most unique construction I have ever seen and I am impressed. What does it represent?

Jennifer Winyard:

very good, so it represents a myth. So there's three red blocks there, the percent, about 15%, of females in the property and construction industry. I'll come on to the mustard yellow bricks in a moment, but it's all a myth. Specific to women in property, which is our women's only group, or our women's membership group, is anti-men or for women who lack confidence networking with men, and that's a myth I want to bust.

Darren Evans:

What do you mean by that? Can you just kind of break that down a little bit?

Jennifer Winyard:

So the organisation is to support women in an industry where there still are not that many female role models in very senior positions. Our unique mentoring programme matches female to female across the built environment sector. So not planner to planner, architect to architect, so you have someone with a unique perspective in a more senior role than yourself. So it's based on role models. The muster color bricks are our main allies. So, whilst it's a women's only membership, our events are very inclusive. We encourage everyone to attend our events. We encourage our male allies to attend our events as well.

Darren Evans:

So that's what it represents so what you need is the acknowledgement and inclusion of the male allies. And just because I can't be a member, I can still come and participate in an event absolutely I am an ally.

Darren Evans:

I was going to say if I'm an ally, but I am an ally for sure. Um, that is great. Good, well, jennifer, you can destroy this myth with two hands. The bricks get destroyed from their uh, from their original place. This is, this is great. I love that myth, and I think that there are a number of people that can think or believe that women in property is a group of women that have got an attitude with men that don't like men, that feel that men are the problem, but that's actually not the case at all.

Jennifer Winyard:

Not at all.

Darren Evans:

What advice would you give to I'm going to get personal at all? What advice would you give to I'm gonna I'm gonna get personal here. What advice would you give to my daughter? She's 16 years old, doing her gcses. She's about four or five different careers that she possibly could do. What advice would you give her?

Jennifer Winyard:

pursue things you enjoy. But also, you're never too young to start building a network of people, and that starts with work experience. Go and shadow people, reach out to people that you admire or you want to spend time with to understand what potential careers you could get involved in. That's been a massive part of my career and I've been building my network since I was a graduate and ultimately, if you start off trying to be friends with people, five, ten years down the line, those people are in those places making those decisions. People I work with now that I met a long time ago and that was all that groundwork. So that's one um. Reach out to supporters. Reach out, try and get a mentor again. You can never be too young. You can always learn from other people's experiences, and that works both ways. Everyone has something to give back to someone else or has experiences to share that will make someone think differently about something and actually think I'm going to do that differently she will listen to this podcast and she will take that advice for sure.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, 100 she will. Yes, she will. Jennifer, it's been great having you here today as a guest on the podcast. Appreciate your wisdom, your perspective and your passion.