Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 46 Why Storytelling Matters in Construction: Advice for Young Professionals

• Darren Evans

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This week, Darren sits down with Liz Male, founder and Managing Director of LMC, a leading PR and communications consultancy for purpose-driven organisations in construction. Together, they dive into the power of captivating storytelling and its transformative potential for the construction industry. Liz explains how highlighting the stories behind projects can inspire a new generation of talent and change how we view the built environment.

In this episode, Liz offers invaluable advice for young people looking to enter the construction workforce, sharing her belief that careers, much like life, aren’t always linear. She also takes a deep dive into the future of sustainability in both construction and marketing, exploring innovative concepts like carbon budgeting for projects.

Don’t miss this inspiring conversation, packed with insights on thriving in construction, driving change, and building a sustainable future.

🔔 Subscribe for more content on the future of construction and career growth.

LINKS:
Follow Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
LMC: https://www.lizmale.co.uk/
Liz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizmale/



Liz Male:

So this is where I have a bit of an issue with marketing generally and communications generally, and I say that as someone who spent my entire career in it. It's like why are they trying to be like that? What are they trying to achieve through building that trust, be it a brand, trying to be very personal and to engage with people at a deeper level? I absolutely, you know, there's nothing wrong with that an individual becoming a brand. Well, I think that's a slightly high risk strategy. You know, cult of celebrity has never worked out terribly well in the long term. But ultimately, you've got a question was why? What are they doing this? For what? What actually is the point?

Liz Male:

of marketing do we still need it in this day and age? We've got everything we could possibly want. Why are we still, you know, marketing ourselves and promoting ourselves and so that's? I guess that's. The challenge that I always think about is sort of what's the purpose behind this? What are we trying to achieve? If it's just to sell more stuff, then that really turns me off. I'm least interested in that If it's something that's got a real sense of purpose behind it, something that will be meaningful and that will leave people better off, that sort of long-term well-being for everyone, for generations to come. Wow, count me in, I'll use all my skills for something like that.

Darren Evans:

So who do you think's doing it really well? Who's doing it right?

Liz Male:

Well, I mean the great brands that everyone talk about, brands like Patagonia, of course, and Coathing Company. In the construction industry actually, there's lots of brands. I know lots of businesses, quite a lot of the very green, smaller, regional house builders, uh, in particular, have a real sense of connection with their communities and, you know, really put the effort in um to create communities that will last, you know, stand the test of time who is there in the construction industry that specifically, you think is doing it really well?

Liz Male:

So I've just finished judging the building magazine awards and I've been judging their social value category and looking at some of the initiatives that are happening there and there are some very, very big contractors who enter those awards every year and are absolutely nailing it. They're getting it really, really good. But there are also lots of very small businesses that are making a big impact within their local communities on social value. We have one client who's involved in public sector frameworks and they decided to launch a framework where they would create greater access for very small, ethnic minority-led architectural practices to get work from London boroughs, to get architectural contracts and to get those breakthroughs into the public sector that a lot of the tiny firms really struggle to do. You know, there's those sort of little examples.

Liz Male:

I know of a house builder based in Bicester which has got this incredible commitment to low carbon construction, community engagement, creating places where people will. You know, real sharing communities. They have the One Planet Living by regional accreditation for those. You know, there's just this jotted around. There's loads of examples and it can be big companies with lots of resources. It also can be small companies and sometimes it's very, very big, big businesses which if you looked at them overall, you might say, nah, you know sort of they're not best practice. But actually go to a particular site or see a particular project and and it will totally shine, and I've experienced that as well so can you spill the tea?

Darren Evans:

then spill the tea. Give me the names of these companies and the specifics of what they do, especially the big ones, because I think that the big organizations really get a rough ride at times. Sometimes it's uh, it's justified, but I do think the good stuff that big organizations do, at times it feels like it goes by the by and no one really picks it up. So are you able to drop any names?

Liz Male:

I'm not going to spill the beans on the award winners that I've just judged. No, not going to.

Liz Male:

But I can tell a story. In fact, I do tell this story. I tell the story to my colleagues a lot and it goes back gosh, probably must be about 15, 16 years or more, more, actually, when I'd started my business over 20 years ago, and one, a very early job that I got to do was to go around, uh, various house building sites. I think we were promoting, um, promoting off-site construction. I I can't even remember why we were there, but I met this, this site manager, and his name was Bob, and he took me on site and he worked for one of the main volume house builders and he took us on site and he was just walking around and he made sure we were safe and cared for and just as you walk around, you could just watch his interaction with everybody on site and you could tell there was real with everybody on site and you know, you could tell there was real rapport there. You know they, they trusted him, they respected him, uh, but also he knew them all by name. You know, really it's quite noticeable walked around and then he just stopped this patch of land and he said, yeah, he said we've got this empty plot here. Um, we've decided. Well, I've decided we're going to play it, we're going to build a playground here and we're going to make it a sensory garden with some play um equipment. And I said to him well, how, how did you decide that? That's not usually something a site manager can control. He went, went. Oh, I just had a chat with a few people, pulled a few strings, it's all sorted, it's fine.

Liz Male:

And I looked at this guy and I just thought there you go. That's why I do the job I do, because I get so sick of the beating that construction gets from the outside world, the attitudes towards things always being wrong, the industry always having to change. You know, the lack of the lack of excellence, the lack of positive contribution. I mean, I've had 30 something years of hearing people denigrate the industry that I actually can't help but absolutely love. And I just thought right, bob, that's.

Liz Male:

You know, I had his picture on my wall for a long time and I used to say to my team if you want to know why we do what we do, it's because of people like him. And there are thousands of people like him, there are absolutely thousands. I can remember, you know, right at the start of my career, going out in a car with this guy who just drove me around central London and went. I made that, I did the floor on that, I worked on that project and and the pride that he took in in all of this and the stories he told about the challenges they'd overcome to create good places for people, and I was just completely hooked and have been ever since. So, yeah, I think I don't want to get too hung up on sort of which companies are the best or not the best. I think there's just examples of excellence and brilliance and and inspirational leadership all over.

Darren Evans:

We just have to tell those stories better and I'm just wondering now, as I'm thinking about um storytelling, that it seems to me that you are 100 right, and it's something that I've identified since I've had my organization since 2007 um is that in the industry, the stories are not as compelling or not as frequent or not as widespread as they are in other industries. And so, if you look at the clothing brands as an example, the stories that a brand like Nike will tell or, for those people that said I've pronounced it wrong Nike, the stories that they tell and the way that they include different people, yes, from different backgrounds, yes, from different genders, all the rest of it but I think, fundamentally, the story that they tell with people seem to be a lot more emotional, a lot more emotive, a lot more, uh, compelling than it seems the construction industry tell well remember, these are consumer brands with multi-million pound advertising budgets, so the stories you're hearing or seeing are largely adverts.

Darren Evans:

I assume yes, adverts, but I think also the communication that they do socially as well. So so an organization that's not as big but I think has become bigger over time and I think will continue to grow, is dual lingo. Yes, what dual lingo have done with the owl? I know that the creator of that did that without any budget. Yeah, she didn't have any budget at all.

Darren Evans:

That's brilliant and what she's worked with. That owl has got my 16-year-old daughter hooked and currently, as we record this, she is on a 396 streak wow, that's awesome yeah absolutely so good she loves that.

Liz Male:

My daughter loves the owl at age 16, but I'm but I've not seen any evidence at the moment where um a brand has been able to do that within the construction industry no, no, we're not very good as storytellers in the industry and it's something that I'm always trying to encourage our clients and, you know, everybody just to become better storytellers to celebrate what they do, like that guy who drove me around London and showed me all the buildings he worked on. You know, if every single one of us did that, can you imagine the impact, the ripple impact we could have on young people and others entering the industry if we just took one young person out for the day and showed them the stuff that we do. Programs like open doors and the open sites programs and things like that are really good for doing that really inspirational.

Liz Male:

Um, yeah, and I think the stories that we also tell too often, or certainly in construction, the tendency is to make the story about us you know, they look what we did, we were responsible for this as opposed to actually putting the end user, the customer, the client, as the hero of the story.

Liz Male:

Yes, talking about them as the hero of the story yes talking about them as the hero, yes, uh, and just making that shift would instantly improve the engagement that we get. Um, so it's a little tip that I give everyone and that's really good.

Darren Evans:

And it's interesting that you mentioned that, because the guy that drove you around london that's effectively what he was doing, right is. He was saying look what I've done, I've done this, I've done that.

Liz Male:

But but in the context of um, oh, that was a really tricky job. Yeah, the client wanted to do this and we, we didn't think it was possible, but you know, they kept going and they kept going and in the end, it's what we achieved, yeah so you know yeah, just as you, just as you're speaking.

Darren Evans:

that though I'm, I'm thinking I wonder how my again going going back to my children, how my 16-year-old would be able to see themselves in a building or that building, right yes.

Darren Evans:

So if she is a consumer, so she goes to a school we live in a home. She goes to a leisure centre. She plays netball in a university for the team that she plays in. So she's in buildings all the time. But it's, how can you connect her heart and mind into a building that has her see herself as reaching a potential or being elevated in some way, some sense of purpose?

Liz Male:

to it. What is? Because? That is the, that is the critical thing, and particularly with this current generation, the gen z's as they call them you know, is giving them that sense of real purpose, to, to what it is that you're doing, um.

Liz Male:

And again, if we can talk about the impact that buildings have on people, on well-being, on, on creativity, on planet, on community, if we can tell those stories, that would be a lot more engaging, that would get their interest. For me, I think it was actually. For me, it was visual, it was, it was the aesthetics, it was the construction of these amazing structures and the shapes and the colors and the sizes and all the you know the, the roof scapes and things like that. That's what blew me away. I was very so.

Liz Male:

I'm very visually oriented and even I went to art college and through my whole art college years I was always drawing building sites and you know scaffolding and cranes and pylons and things like that. I'm fascinated by lattice work, lattice steel structures or any sort of architectural structures, structures. So I think that's what switched me on in the first place was being shown these you know incredible city of london buildings I'd never seen before. Um, but for this generation maybe that will do it for some, maybe it has to be a story about what the built environment does and its purpose and how it can improve the world and and people's lives and improve sustainability it's a fundamental driver for the new generation yeah, that's um.

Darren Evans:

I totally agree with that. How does the construction industry save something or someone? And I think a story along those lines would be good, because it does. It keeps us safe from the elements. It keeps us safe mentally as well as physically. We can receive healing in buildings we can receive connection in buildings. I think the Maggie's Centres.

Liz Male:

Do you? Know, the the Maggie Centres. Do you know the Maggie Centres?

Darren Evans:

No, tell me about those.

Liz Male:

It's a charity, cancer charity for treatment and support of people going through cancer treatment, and the Maggie Centres are both architecturally and sustainably superb environments, healing environments, lots of timber, lots of plants.

Darren Evans:

But when you talk about or think about cancer care or caring for people with cancer or recovering from cancer, there aren't any stories in there that involve buildings, or are there? That's a really bad question. There are actually no there. Are you just really bad question? There are actually no, there are, there are.

Liz Male:

You just have to dig them out a bit, okay.

Darren Evans:

I guess what I'm saying is that when you hear a story about someone recovering from cancer or being diagnosed with cancer, or the journey that someone goes on, the story isn't obvious that that involves a building and the building is crucial to their recovery yes.

Liz Male:

Or connection with family, absolutely yes. Yeah, there's lots of research around that at the moment, but actually also on the flip side, you can absolutely know the stories and you will have heard the stories of the opposite where the built environment has failed to keep people safe and well and healthy.

Darren Evans:

And I think that that's the heartbreak, right yeah, is that in everything there is duality. So within my personality and your personality, there's a good side and there's not so good side Within everything. There are always two sides of the coin, but I think that in the construction industry, we focus on the negative side of the coin maybe too frequently than we do on the other side of the coin.

Darren Evans:

yes, yeah, that is true and so I'm wondering you know that and and again and again the the attraction for younger people that I see to try and come into the industry and I've had many people on the podcast say the same thing is that you're generally doing an apprenticeship and you're doing that because you're not that intelligent, because you're not that good at school, because you can't do the gcse, so you go off and do an apprenticeship and that's actually not true at all so not true.

Liz Male:

It is so not true, but the teaching from schools often not always, but often is along that vein, and I wonder if it's because we focus too much on one side of the coin versus on the other side of the coin I think we're reaping the rewards and I say that in inverted commas, sarcastically we're reaping the rewards of a system education system that doesn't understand neurodiversity, that doesn't embrace that sort of creative, hands-on way of working and just doesn't know what to do with these young people.

Liz Male:

doesn't know what to do with these young people, doesn't know what to do with them doesn't know how to how to engage them and excite them, and that sometimes, more often than not, they find their way into the industry through family connections, through recommendations and referrals from people who go. Do you know what? You'd be really good at this. And someone has just taken the time to think, actually, where's their, where's their superpower and where can we make them happy and productive? And, yeah, you've got to try lots of different things to find the thing that really, you know, floats your boat. But if we were just better, if the system was better at that. But that's within the gift of all of us, as parents, as you know, school governors, as teachers, anybody, any interactions that we have.

Darren Evans:

That's entirely within our gift to make, to make these possibilities visible, you know so, with that as the backdrop, if there was to be a soundbite or a piece of advice that was to come out from you that a young person would listen to. So this podcast is on tiktok, yeah, it is on youtube, and we are also on instagram. So what would your message be to a young person, someone that's in Gen Z or Gen Z of why we're looking for bright minds, energetic individuals in the industry? What would you? How would you sell it to them?

Liz Male:

I'd say number one we really, really need you. We need your creative ideas. We need your strong focus on purpose and those values that you hold so dear ambitious, go-getting wealth creation, but all the other values that this generation seem to have just been born with. My god, we need it in bucket loads and come and try different things and don't worry. Well the you know your life is not linear. Your career will not be linear. You will try all sorts of different things. Don't worry about that.

Liz Male:

Go for it and yeah, and just realize that the impact that you can make in the built environment is an impact that will last, potentially, for hundreds of years. What a legacy to leave. You know, I can't imagine anything better. You'll meet some amazing people in the construction industry, some really brilliant minds and people who will mentor you and will tap into that energy and enthusiasm and will develop your superpowers. There's some very good people and employers there, so don't let anybody sort of sneerily put you off what is genuinely a very, very diverse industry. Construction is not even a single industry, is it? It's a whole ecosystem, so you can work around every bit of it, which is pretty much what I've done for 35 years, and every time you discover another little bit, it joins up all the dots again and it will re-enthuse you and you know, if you're somebody with that growth mindset, you'll never stop learning. That's not really a soundbite, but you, you get the idea.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, yes and I'm, I'm there, I'm with you, I'm with you. What is it? What is it that you do in the industry, and what difference are you trying to make?

Liz Male:

Okay, so I'm a communicator at heart. I started my life doing lots of journalism and writing and art and accidentally, like so many of us, fell into working in the built environment, started working for a firm of architects as a press officer and just this light bulb went off in my head and I absolutely loved it. And that's really where I've then chosen to sort of make my industry of choice, for the reasons that I was saying earlier about sort of the always learning something new, always finding out a little bit more about how the built environment's put together and how it works and all the different roles within it. So over those years I've worked as a PR consultant, I've worked in-house as a head of communications and then I set up my own business 20 years ago just over, and we're a small team there's 18 of us.

Liz Male:

Everyone has got different areas of specialisms and superpowers in different types of comms or different elements of the sort of ecosystem that's property and construction, and what we do is we work with I call them the change makers, darren. I call them the change makers, darren. I call them the change makers. They're the innovators. I'm not terribly excited, I'll be honest, about trying to sell more stuff. Another new type of roof tile or something doesn't quite do it for me, but actually, increasingly, and particularly since COVID, I've seen a real uh rise in the, in the organizations who've gone. Do you know what? We've got this vision about how things could be better. And they're the sort of organizations we do our best work with.

Liz Male:

So work for those clients, help them achieve their purpose. That might be through making them super famous, getting them on tv and radio and in the newspapers and, you know, all over the media. Um, it can be simply about creating connections for them, uh, contacts, relationships, uh collaborations, because I don't think any of us change the world on our own. We have to collaborate, definitely. So that's really what we do. We're, I think of us as like a bridge, you know. So in some cases, actually the journalists and the media and the industry, bodies and civil servants and others that we talk to. In a way, they're as much our clients as our clients are. They need to talk to people in the industry who've got insights or ideas or projects that are worth looking at, and our clients desperately want to reach that other group of people. So we're the sort of connection between the two, the bridge between the two, trying to help them, bring them together and help them understand each other better and communicate effectively, of course, If.

Darren Evans:

I am listening to you and I've got an idea to start a new business, or maybe I've just started my business and it's really new and I'm just trying to bootstrap and get it off the ground. What would be the best piece of advice that you would be able to give me? So I'm looking for free advice because I can't afford you.

Liz Male:

No no.

Darren Evans:

Because I've just set my company up. What advice would you be able to give me?

Liz Male:

I think number one know your purpose, know your vision and find the most compelling way you can to articulate it. So build that back story, build that story about why you and your business is going to make the world a better place. That's number one. You've got to be able to articulate that. That, um, thereafter my my honest view, and I've often said to clients it's like okay, let's imagine you were down to your last. What 25 quid to spend on marketing? What would I do? I charge my car, I bake some chocolate brownies and I go and knock on people's doors and go and see people Face-to-face communication, go and talk to a few people, ask them for some referrals, get chatting to them. Everybody generally, I find, is I mean, we're good people. Everyone wants to help, you know. So I would say, if you're down to your last bucks, you know that's the way to do it. Get out there and meet people, network, network like crazy, yeah.

Darren Evans:

That's really good advice. Free advice, but good advice.

Liz Male:

Yeah, I love that. Don't forget the chocolate brownies.

Darren Evans:

I was going to say the chocolate brownies.

Liz Male:

I am strictly no sugar at the moment, so, um, okay, well, maybe an obstacle for me. No, you can make chocolate brownies that way. Yes, yes, somebody made them the other day with beetroot oh wow, yeah, interesting, did you try any? I did, it was delicious. Oh, it was yeah, yeah interesting.

Darren Evans:

I think I'll just take your word for it, Genuinely apparently it's a low sugar, low carb version of brownies.

Liz Male:

I'll send you the recipe.

Darren Evans:

Do that? Yeah, do that. That's good. So what impact is it that you're trying to make? So you've made reference to other organisations needing to be really clear on the path that they want and where they want to go. But what is it for you? What dent are you trying to make in the universe?

Liz Male:

Yes, I've got actually more than one area that I'm really focused on. I feel like I've got an I call it an internal purpose, as in internal to my business as an employer. I believe I've got a role that I can play as an employer and I want, frankly, to be the very best employer that my team will ever experience in their all their careers. That is real motivation to me. I want to make a direct difference to those people's lives, to their careers, to their opportunities, to their growth, and so that's something that I try and work on every day. In terms of the external world, the purpose that I can deliver partly it's to people like Bob that I was talking about earlier this sense of standing up for the best in the industry and celebrating what they do and their stories and using that to inspire others. But more recently it's actually gone much deeper in terms of particularly around sustainability actually Environmental and social.

Liz Male:

I had a bit of a sort of light bulb moment fairly recently. I completed a course with the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability and it absolutely blew my mind. It was incredible Because I've been involved in energy efficiency in buildings and sustainability in buildings since about 1989. Talk to the telegraph or the BBC or whatever. I'm being told to knit my own yogurt because I was off with the fairies and it was all hippie trippy stuff and nobody was interested at all in insulation and new values and energy efficiency and fuel poverty issues just didn't matter, of course. Now it really really matters.

Darren Evans:

I love that phrase, though knit your own yogurt. I've never heard that. Oh yeah, I love that one, along with hug your own yoghurt.

Liz Male:

I've never heard that before. Oh yeah, I love that one, along with hug your own tree, you know. So, yeah, I had a lot of those in the early days, but I honestly, I think I thought that, you know, I've been involved in this since the 80s and, to be perfectly honest, I think I thought that I was as much a victim of the sort of climate crisis as you know, as my parents were, as everyone was, and that this was something that happened to us in the industrial revolution. That's what changed the course of history. You know, that was when everything started to go badly wrong and actually I'd never seen that hockey stick curve properly before, or, if I had seen, it hadn't really looked at the dates along the bottom and it started really in the 1950s, the last 70 years, and I've been alive for most of that and it just went off in my head. It was like, oh my god, that's me, that's us, that's, that's my generation. The great acceleration, as they call it, that hockey stick curve, in terms of what's happened with the climate, is directly linked to decisions that I've made and actually directly linked to skills that I have used, so marketing and PR and all the persuasive skills that have been used to create this, this environment of aspiration, of consumption, of over consumption. I've used my super, I've used my skills as a communicator to contribute to that and I walked away from that course thinking crikey. You know, I can't continue being part of that. I've got to see if I can become part of the solution and use the same skills for good.

Liz Male:

So we had a bit of a sort of rethink as a business and I came together with my colleagues and said look, what are we going to do? Where can we make a difference? You know, simply, in our day-to-day work. What is it that we can do that would make a difference? So all sorts of things. Pledges we've signed the Clean Creatives Pledge. So we will not work for any business linked to fossil fuel industry. So I'm afraid if there's a gas boiler manufacturer out there, you know LMC is not for you, we're not going to work with you.

Liz Male:

We decided that in some of our services that we would promote lower carbon digital marketing. I had no idea that the Internet something like. If the Internet was a country, it'd be something like the sixth largest country there and all of them getting heavier and bigger, something like 10 times as big our websites now, as they were in, say, early 2000s, you know and that all has a carbon implication. And when we started looking at every part of our work, there were decisions that we were making. When we do a video shoot, even whether we do TikTok versus YouTube, those have carbon implications. The more environmentally conscious solutions to this Obviously using them for the purpose of promoting, you know, long-term well-being for all. But then also looking at things from a social sustainability perspective and particularly around diversity and inclusion. So the BBC have had a campaign going for some time called the 50-50 campaign, where they are trying to get a gender balance in the interviewees that they use in the media. And we work really closely with the Beeb and other broadcasters and now loads of the press as well, to try and get much more diverse voices, underrepresented voices now representing the construction industry, into the media. So we decided that we would offer free media training to any of our clients who have female or ethnic minority or any underrepresented group you know within their team who could become a spokesperson for their business. We'll train them for free, we'll help them get their voices into the media. And these are just some of the examples.

Liz Male:

There's a whole raft of things that the team came together and just said this really matters. If we are going to use our skills for good, then we've got to re-examine everything that we do and do it slightly differently. I would say honestly, we're still at the very beginnings of that journey. There's so much more help that we need.

Liz Male:

I spent the weekend reading about, you know, carbon calculators and how we could actually create a carbon calculator for communications and marketing so that I could put a carbon budget around what we do, because I can see the day eventually where we will be given you know, we'll be given a budget. A client will come to us and say liz, here you go, you know, 50 000 pounds to run this campaign to help us achieve what we want to achieve in the world. But as well as that, you also have got a carbon budget of this and you've got to work within that and I think that's a brilliant discipline. I'd love to see that happen and I'm sort of trying to edge towards find those, flush out, those that are thinking similar ways and see if we can develop something that would be useful. I know they've got something like it in the advertising industry, but I've not seen it in marketing.

Darren Evans:

That's a great, and it would be a great proposition as well, wouldn't it for you to go out to a client to say, yeah, this is what I can do for you and this is what the carbon budget will be?

Liz Male:

it's already working, you know we've started, we've just started in the last couple of months.

Liz Male:

Yeah, that's great so we started talking to clients. We had our first client who said actually, do you know what we love that idea of doing a lower carbon video? Um, because they can then use this that supports them with their scope three calculations. It ties perfectly into their sustainability strategy. I see no reason why. You know the marketing and communications team. Every team, hr, it, operations every single part of a business should be part of you know tackling these issues. Every job should be a carbon job. You know carbon cutting job.

Darren Evans:

That's great. I love that sentiment that you're using your superpowers to make positive change as opposed to use your superpowers to get personal gain yeah, well, you know you need to get gained, and there's nothing wrong with getting personal gain if that enables you to do something which has a higher purpose than just getting personal gain.

Liz Male:

I just don't know any other way to make work meaningful and to motivate my brilliant team. I just don't think people get massively motivated by thinking they're working their butt off. For someone to take, you know large profits out and spend it on a yacht in Antigua, you know, it's sort of I don't think that's terribly motivating.

Darren Evans:

So we've got the same principle. So in the industry that I'm in, I've got a consultancy that consult with sustainable buildings. We help people to either get to net zero or we help them to get to compliance in and around part L. There are other things that we do as well around BREAM, and so on and so on. So we've had this consultancy since, like I said, 2007. 2007 and so when I look at other organizations that may be deemed as our rivals or competitors, that that is the thing that they are pursuing is how can I hire as many people as possible, get as much business as possible and make as much money as possible? That's the, that's the goal and the focus where we're different in as much as we are looking for impact.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, I'm super fussy about who comes to work with me yes, yes and sometimes that is a blessing and other times it feels like a massive curse. But we're super fussy because you need to have that thing inside of you that says I am here for a reason deeper than I, just need to get as much money as I can at this stage in my life yeah which, for some people, doesn't work well, and that's completely fine.

Darren Evans:

I'm not saying that they're bad people and I'm not saying that the other organizations are bad for doing that, but that's just not what we're after. It's not what we're looking for and that's why I really love speaking to you and love what you're trying to do with your business is because it's more about meaning and legacy. Like you were saying when you were pitching to the younger people, the things that you're involved with are going to be around for hundreds of years and the things that you're doing are going to be the same.

Liz Male:

It's going to be around for for multiple lifetimes yeah, I think, legacy, holding on to that, thinking about what your legacy will be.

Liz Male:

I guess it's because I'm getting older I start to think about these things more and more, but it's, it's a yeah, it really helps to focus your mind and, like I said, when I saw I started playing with some of the tools that are out there. You know the carbon stripes, yeah, so I was starting playing with some of those tools and there's one I think it's the Royal Meteorological Society or the Royal Geological Society, I can't remember which, but they have an incredible map which shows what happens to coastal coastlines if we have and you can adjust the dial 1.5 degrees, 2 degrees, 3 degrees increase in climate. And I just I'd had a friend who had bought his forever home in Cambridgeshire, in the fens, just the most beautiful property, and uh, yeah, it was just. I went to see it was absolutely amazing and he'd done it up and it was really special and I was sort of looking at this map and I just thought what happens if we do go above 1.5? And I shot it up to like two or three and oh oh, his house is underwater.

Liz Male:

I mean, cambridge becomes a seaside town okay and I'm like, oh crikey, and that's not necessarily within my lifetime, but potentially within my daughter's lifetime. I was like, no, that can't happen, that can't be true. And the more I looked into it, I just I just thought, oh my gosh, right there, there is no excuse. Now there is no. I can't remember who said the quote. I think it's a um chap called paul polman, I think his name is. I think he's a former chief exec of unilever. I said something like the the times run out to be a pessimist okay, there's no more time to be a pessimist.

Liz Male:

Okay we have got to be optimistic, focused, solutions oriented. We've got to get on and just make stuff happen, and if every single one of us did a little bit, just think how much that could add up to yeah which I think then kind of for me, brings that background to that storytelling.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, and making sure, from what you're saying, that we focus on the other side of the coin to say that we can be optimistic in this area because we can change, we can adapt and there are good things that will come out. Yes, there are bright minds in schools that want to make a difference that we can attract in because the difference that it will make will be the world over. It will make a difference to everybody because we all need buildings and have buildings.

Liz Male:

We're planning an event next May. At this event, called UK Reef it's a big property, real estate, built environment event in Leeds and I was talking to the team about what we do and we decided we're going to make it full of actionable examples, copyable examples of good stuff. You know, we've. We have just all had it up to here with hearing about how construction needs to change, everything is broken and everybody waiting for somebody else to fix things. Government should fix this. You know, that's a red rag to a bull for me. I really I just think, no, don't wait for anybody else to come and fix it, do it yourself, sort it. Every one of us has the power to do something.

Liz Male:

So decided that next year we're going to see if we can get every possible example we can find and make sure that everyone walks out with at least five things they can do. Nice, and it could be around building safety. It could be around sustainability, diversity and inclusion, quality aesthetics. You know, you know, net zero. Whatever it is, some something. There's so many examples of good stuff. We've got to just somehow find a way of bringing them all together I love that, liz.

Darren Evans:

I think now we're in a position where we can go to the demolition zone. So we are in the demolition zone. Yeah, liz, you have created something which is a uh, a wonder. I think it's one of the wonders of the world, because you are the only person so far in the podcast that has used every single block that we have given you to create something. So hats off.

Darren Evans:

Well done thank you now, the other thing you've done as well is you've made it virtually impossible for me to describe for those people that are on audio. So those people that are listening just log on to YouTube and check out this section at the Demolition Zone, because I've not got the words in any language, let alone the English language, to be able to describe it. But it's awesome.

Liz Male:

It's a feast of fancy, isn't it?

Darren Evans:

What does it represent?

Liz Male:

bit, but it's awesome. It's a feast of fancy, isn't it? Yes? What does it represent? This represents the decades and decades of skills built up in marketing and communications in the construction industry which are currently, unfortunately, being directed misdirected to achieve the wrong thing, that it's being used to sell more stuff. You know, um, just keep a commercial engine driving that too often just talks about being sustainable but actually, at its heart, is not truly focused on long-term well-being for all.

Liz Male:

And this is where I don't actually believe in demolition. So I should say I'm going to rechristen this. The retrofit and refurbishment zone Great, because I think I mean, there's a bit of it that I will demolish, which is the little red bit here. I'm afraid that's going to go. That's the full on testosterone fuelled. You know, sell, sell, sell. Commercial profit above everything. That's got to go, completely got to go. Um, but actually, within the industry, there are so many really talented people in marketing and communications, um, and people who are genuinely purpose focused, um and uh, I want to celebrate what they do, and so all we're going to do is perhaps just realign some of those skills so that we still keep it as a thing of beauty, um, but it's refocused on true purpose and genuine sustainability. Does that sound all right?

Darren Evans:

I love that. I love that idea that you just presented. That has been one that I've held for many, many years. Is that no one's having the demand conversation, and so by what you're saying is that marketing comms, pr often is about demanding more. We need to consume more. We need more and more and more and more and more. As opposed to okay, let's reuse what we've already got, let's suppress or maybe redirect that desire that we have for more and jump off of the hedonistic treadmill because we're not happier the more stuff that we've got.

Liz Male:

No, we're no happier. And actually you, you know marketing and communications. We are not the coloring in department, you know. We are people with really strategic, good business acumen and skills who can help achieve systems change. Who can question why do we do it that way? Actually, and if you genuinely engage stakeholders we're the people who tend to be the eyes and ears of an organization. Looking outwards all the time, pr people like me. We are bristling with antennae all the time, trying to sense what the outside world is thinking and feeling and needs. And actually, if you engage those stakeholders, if you bring them in, if you genuinely listen to their needs and their long-term needs, then actually we can take that back to the boardrooms and to the clients that we work with and we can achieve genuine systemic change. Wow, how cool is that? So that's that's where our beautiful structure here just needs a little bit of remodelling.

Darren Evans:

Well, remodel away Liz.

Liz Male:

Okay, well, first of all, let's do the dramatic cathartic.

Darren Evans:

We need the sound effect, don't we? Semi-demolition? Oh, the sound effects will be in, don't worry, there's lots of sound effects.

Liz Male:

Okay, so this is just a little bit that will be demolished. It will be reused elsewhere somewhere at a later date, but for now that bit goes Right. That bit goes Right, fine, and the rest well. We can remodel it in multiple ways. It'll probably take me another half an hour just to do it, so I won't keep you waiting, but you get the gist.

Darren Evans:

This is great. I love that, so it's been great having you on the show today. I really appreciate your time, your wisdom and also your creative flair Absolutely loving that there. But I just wanted to find out was there anything else that you wanted to touch on before we finish?

Liz Male:

Well, Darren, I bought you a present.

Darren Evans:

You have.

Liz Male:

Yeah, I have bought you, well, two little presents. So at LMC, my business um, for about the last 15 or so years more than that actually we've done a Christmas card every year, but it's not really a Christmas card, it's a thing. It's a thing, and sometimes they're very um, satirical and silly bits of stuff that we send out to people as a little gift to say happy Christmas.

Darren Evans:

Good, I like silly stuff.

Liz Male:

Yeah, we did one year we did a set of coasters which had photographs of all the very worst designed buildings in the world. We called them our Christmas turkeys worst designed buildings in the world, we call them our Christmas turkeys. So they now, those coasters, now grace the boardrooms around the country and some of them were very rude. So it was quite funny. But we've done all sorts of things over the years.

Liz Male:

But this, these two little books there's one called a place for peace and there's one called we will rebuild and um, I think sort of we've had some pretty tough years so these were slightly different in tone. So, a place for peace, if you open it up, it opens up and it's all the um buildings and structures around the world that express the concept of peace, all the peace pagodas, and it's just a nice little thing that you can look and sort of see all the places, how humankind has created these structures to to celebrate and reinforce the need for peace. So that was my, my little place for peace book wonderful, thank you and this one is called we will rebuild, and again similar theme.

Liz Male:

It's all the places in the world where, through there's been terrible destruction, could be natural disasters, could be war. You know terrible things, atrocities that have happened, and we've lost some incredible architectural. You know buildings and structures, but actually, in every case, these have started now or are now completely rebuilt and I was thinking very much, obviously, about ukraine, and you know the struggles that are going on around the world, um, in syria and gaza and everywhere where so much destruction, and I just think it's really important that we remember that we in the built environment have got the skills to rebuild. We are bringers of regeneration, of peace, of making the world a better place, and we've done it for centuries, millennia. Things have been destroyed and rebuilt. So, um, this is my sort of little reminder of the hope and a reminder of how important you know what we do really is to the world. So I thought I'd bring these two for you and you might just really enjoy them.

Darren Evans:

That is fantastic. I love that. Thank you. You are the first, so give me a gift on this podcast, and what an awesome gift this is. This is great. I love, uh, I love this and I look forward to looking at that in great detail you're really welcome.

Darren Evans:

Thank you, liz it really has been a pleasure having you on the podcast today, and not only have I gone away with a couple of extra things to uh to ponder on in the gifts that you've given me, but also just in the, in the things that you've discussed me, but also just in the, in the things that you've discussed and the things that we've covered off in this conversation.

Liz Male:

I've really loved it and can I just say thank you to you for everything that you do and your contribution. I know a lot of young people listen to this and I think you're having an incredible impact out there in terms of shaping their understanding and inspiration about the opportunities in this world, part of the world, and it's lovely. It's wonderful.

Darren Evans:

Thank you for doing it thank you, thanks, thanks for being a part of it you.