Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 47 Why are construction projects getting stuck, and how can we fix them?

• Darren Evans

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This week on the Thrive in Construction podcast, we are joined by Jocelyn Bentum, who provides a wealth of insight into the construction industry. Jocelyn explores key challenges in construction projects, such as poor communication, lack of alignment, and inadequate planning, and shares practical strategies to address these issues effectively. She also highlights the importance of increasing diversity in the industry and the need for more minorities to play a vital role in shaping its future.

Drawing from her experiences growing up in a Ghanaian family, Jocelyn reflects on balancing career choices with cultural expectations and offers inspiring advice for Ghanaian women aspiring to enter the construction field. She delves into networking opportunities available for minorities in the industry and emphasises the value of exploring different roles to discover the right fit.

Jocelyn also introduces the concept of reverse mentoring, showing how listening to younger generations entering the workforce can challenge the status quo and drive meaningful change in construction. This is a must-listen episode for anyone passionate about diversity, growth, and innovation in the industry.

Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more valuable insights into the construction industry!

Follow Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
Follow Jocelyn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynbentum/ 
AECOM Website: https://aecom.com/



Darren Evans:

So how did you manage to get into the construction industry? Have you got family in the industry?

Jocelyn Bentum:

No, I don't. But my dad is very, very, very good with his hands. Growing up, he used to just build everything. He could fix anything and he'd always rope us into helping him. So I grew up with like a love of doing practical things with my hands. So when I was at school I would always do the creative things. I did art, I did sculpture, I did product design. So I always knew that I liked the practical side of things.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So then when it was time for me to kind of you know when GCSE has to decide your future and what you want to do, and I knew how to do something in the built environment. Also, I love architecture. I found your building so beautiful. I think it is a form of art and I just absolutely love it. So when it was time for me to decide what I wanted to do, I knew I want to go into, like, the building sector and I always thought, oh, it was two options architecture or interior design. But I come from like an African household and you need to choose a career path that is going to for sure be successful.

Darren Evans:

So I'm just going to jump in here. When you say you come from an African household. Africa is a huge, huge continent and there's lots of different cultures that sit within that. Now, I know from conversations and from ancestry that you're talking West Africa.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Yeah, but just be specific with the household that you're in. Yes, I'm a Ghanaian.

Darren Evans:

Okay.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So my parents are both Ghanaians.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jocelyn Bentum:

They grew up there. I grew up in Europe, I grew up there. So, like this, instilled in me the culture and expectations.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So I think there's like a running joke where, let's say, west African households there's an expectation for you to be a doctor, a lawyer, like those kind of professions. So when it was time for me to tell my dad, oh, this is my plan for my future, and I said I want to do architecture and interior design, he quickly dissuaded me from interior design because he said, well, it's one of those creative industries and there's no guarantee you're gonna make a good job or make good money. And we've moved here so you can have the best future possible. So then it kind of left architecture and at the time I was really really, really, really loving maths at school. Like I just absolutely loved maths at school. So then in my head I was like, well, architecture seems quite design orientated. How can I bring in the maths element?

Jocelyn Bentum:

And then I came across a degree. It's called architectural engineering and design management and that degree is basically covers, like, most of the construction disciplines. It gives you the foundations. So it was about 50% architecture, although the 50% was construction, structure engineering, civil engineering, bim, everything. So it was basically covered everything that I enjoyed as well as being in the built environment.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So that's how I kind of got into construction, um, and then I think most degrees or I don't know but mine you have a year in industry. So you basically get to decide, um to like, go work for a year just to fully flesh out if you want to be in that industry. So I did that. I went to work for a developer and then, whilst I was there, you do secondment. So you do different, you work in different departments for a period of time. So I did planning, I did development, I did construction, I did architecture and also went on site as well. And although I loved the architecture side of things and physically drawing and marking up and being part of the creative process, it was very evident that the expectations from you in terms of how much you have to give in that role, like time wise, was a lot more that was willing to give what was that?

Darren Evans:

how much time?

Jocelyn Bentum:

architecture you have to work around the clock because a lot of times you're working to unrealistic deadlines and with architecture you always solve working with other disciplines. So if something changes with like services, for example, it impacts um your layout, so you have. So there's always this iterative process and it was just very, very, very time consuming and although I love being in design, I didn't really enjoy the designing like actually being physically be on the computer doing all the day-to-day drawings.

Darren Evans:

You didn't enjoy that.

Jocelyn Bentum:

I didn't.

Darren Evans:

So what did you enjoy about design then?

Jocelyn Bentum:

I like being part of the creative process and I like the management.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Whilst I was there, funnily enough, there was a period in time when we had a deadline or submission and all the senior architects were on leave, either on leave or had left, so it was just me and I was was only one there that had been involved from a good period of time. So then they asked me to sort of lead the group and help us deliver this submission. So I was the one coordinating with the team and managing and speaking to the client and speaking to the architecture lead to communicate progress and stuff like that. So I realized that actually, even though I don't really I enjoy it but I don't love the actual tasking work of drawing, I like being part of the design team and the management side of things. So I took that knowledge, went back to uni and then I was then able to sort of realize that when I come out of uni I want to be in this industry but I want to go down the design management side of things. So then that's how I sort of found this niche for myself.

Darren Evans:

Yeah and you enjoy. It.

Jocelyn Bentum:

I do enjoy it.

Jocelyn Bentum:

It definitely comes with a lot of challenges, I won't lie, because as a design manager you're kind of the one responsible for managing the whole design process and we tend to work with multidisciplinary teams on large scale projects.

Jocelyn Bentum:

It's not always large scale project, but there's usually quite a lot of teams, so you're having to manage them, make sure that they are delivering according to budget, to program, to any constraints that come out the way. But then you're also the one client facing, so you're having to let them know of any risk, any challenges, any delays. You're the one having to deal with all of that interfacing and as a design manager, your role is almost to take away anything that is not technical from the design team so they can focus on actually putting pen to paper and delivering design. So so you take on everything else. So almost feels as if there's quite a lot of pressure on you to manage things well, because if you make something, that contract, if you don't deliver, like it becomes a big thing, a commercial issue. So, although it's enjoyable because you get to be part of the design development process and like, something I really love is being able to be like oh, I was part of that building's design.

Darren Evans:

So although you do get that um a sense of achievement, there's also that added pressure that comes with all the background things that you need to manage and keep on top of so, just for the benefit of the younger listeners that we have, or the younger audience that we have here, how much would someone that's a design manager typically earn if they lived in and around the London area?

Jocelyn Bentum:

So what I will say it depends on which sector you are. So I will say that within construction there are two main sectors the consultancy side and the actual contracting side. So typically for a design manager, from my experience you tend to get paid more on the contracting side. So let's say you're a senior designer. So if you're a senior design manager you can earn anything up from 70 to 80k on the contracting side, whereas on the consultancies I'll be slightly lower, with a cap of about 60k. So there is that difference between.

Darren Evans:

But then also why are they different in in remuneration?

Jocelyn Bentum:

I think is because from the contracting side there are also benefits that comes with that pay package.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So which would be what yeah, typically required to be on site full time, so you're having to travel to site and sometimes there is no public transportation available, so you get compensated additionally for that additional expense. And then also there is the added requirement where you have to be very technically proficient because if you're from a contracting side almost like the last line of defense when it comes to design, because you have to check the design to make sure it's compliant before it's built, so you need to have that additional technical knowledge and understanding and that additional risk, whereas on the consulting, consultancy side, we are managing the designers. They have ownership over the design and checking there's compliance and stuff like that. So there is slightly different requirement on either side.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Either side you're still involved in the design, but what is expected from you is different. And also just in terms of traveling as well, you should consult and see your office based. You will travel to sites for site meetings every now and again, but generally your office space it tends to be more flexible as well. So for me, for example, I primarily work from home and I go to the office just to catch up with my team, so maybe go to client meeting. So there's a different expectation depending on where, which region? Well, which area you're in?

Darren Evans:

yeah, okay, and how long generally would it take for someone to complete a degree in university, secure a junior position and then be at the stage where they're earning 70 to 80,000 a year?

Jocelyn Bentum:

I think it really depends on just how you can move around a lot and earn a lot of money quickly. And within the construction industry, I think it's a very small industry. Everyone knows everyone because everyone is always hip-hopping.

Darren Evans:

I love that Everyone's hip-hopping, hip-hopping Like on my LinkedIn contacts.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Everyone is a mutual friend because we're all just running the same circle. Everyone's always jumping companies, but typically when you start the minimum is about 25K and then when you get a promo, if you stay there, maybe it's 5K. If you've got different companies, that's 10K. So then I would say the jump from a graduate or an assistant design coordinator because sometimes design management is called design coordination, it's interchangeably used but the jump between a graduate and a design manager, maybe two years, but the jump between design manager and senior design manager, the requirements are a lot more onerous, so it will be anywhere from three to five years. Okay, so all in all, I'll say under a decade.

Jocelyn Bentum:

But when you are senior design managers almost like the highest level um, especially in the contracting world so your knowledge is required to be up there. Your technical understanding is required to be up there. You have to be very proficient. But the journey is fun and I'll say it goes by really quickly. Sometimes I think, oh my gosh, when I see the new graduates joining the business, I'm like, oh, wow, I feel like I was just a graduate yesterday. How is it that I'm here now as a senior DM? And it's been almost 10 years.

Jocelyn Bentum:

It's yeah time goes past quickly as well when you're having fun too, when you're being challenged, when you're being pushed, and something I think a lot of people do say this, but in the construction industry, no day is ever really the same, especially when you're site-based, because it's always something you come in about. You always interact with different people. There's some contractors, the end users, the client. It's always really different. So it's not like a role that says mundane, you're not, you're not on excel all day, every day.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Sometimes I wish it could be mundane, but it's not so I think all of those things makes it go really really, really, really quick. The time passes quite quickly.

Darren Evans:

I know that when we were talking off camera, you mentioned about how today has really been a bit of a challenge. Things have happened that you've not planned for. So, breaking it down, what three things, what three attributes do you think that someone needs to have when working towards being a senior design manager?

Jocelyn Bentum:

I would say it's flexibility, because, especially in construction, nothing ever goes according to program. So you need to be really able to pivot and understand how can I restructure the program or sequencing of things to to make it work, because ultimately the end goal is meeting the end date. And then is the ability to understand things from other people's perspective, because one of the major things about being able to facilitate conversations to get to a conclusion, because one of the keys about design management is being the person who facilitates conversations so the different teams can talk. Especially when you are the design manager on your multidisciplinary project, you have such a wide variety of teams and all their designs are interconnected and sometimes people tend to work in silos, so you need to be able to like, bring people together and be like okay. So this is the problem, how can we resolve it? And it's no finger pointing exercise, it's what is the problem? Why is this a problem? What can we do to resolve it and how can we come to a conclusion that we can take the client, that we can present to them? So it's being able to sort of facilitate that environment.

Jocelyn Bentum:

And then the third one is just people skills. At the end of the day. It's a management role. You're managing people. You need to understand that you're working in a high-pressure environment. I'm not saying it's life or death, but sometimes they do treat it like it's life or death. It's all about money, money, money, budget, program. So you need to understand how those stresses can impact someone and what you as a manager can do to elevate those concerns.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So and something I mentioned is as a design manager, our role is to almost allow the design team to focus on the technical elements that you're working on pen to paper. You take away everything else away from them. So if there's something on their plate that is going to distract if distracted from them it's, how can I step in and allow them to focus on what is really important and critical?

Jocelyn Bentum:

So, being it's been a people person and in construction generally there's it's mental health is a big issue. It has a very high rate of suicide and a lot and my company is always mental well-being days. There's always um, there's always like um health and safety seminars and even when I was on site, it was one of the conversations we spoke about a lot and when I was on site I would. It's a predominantly male industry people don't really like to talk about feelings or what they're going through. Me neither, but for whatever reason, when I'm at in a work setting because I understand that it's quite pressurized I always ask how are you doing? And there are a lot of times people will just offload.

Darren Evans:

Okay.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Just offload, because there's just some everyone's just going through their personal things and it does come into work and the work environment and their productivity. So, yes, the third thing is just being a people person understanding how to communicate to people, allowing them to be able to come to you and for you to help not solve all their problems, but figure out.

Darren Evans:

How can?

Jocelyn Bentum:

we navigate this so that we can deliver and also be able to communicate well with the client. Ultimately, you want to form a great relationship so that down the line, if the client has other projects, they'll feel comfortable come into you and proposing that project for you so that it provides continued business.

Darren Evans:

I like that. It's interesting that you mentioned about people offloading when you ask them how they are, because the stereotypical british thing to do is to ask someone how they are, but you don't really mean how are you. You really mean hello, it's nice to see you, but it's interesting that the place where you're working at the moment that that appears to be actually a genuine question how are you? And people are willing to respond back.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Yeah, yeah, it's funny. That was a culture shock when I first moved to England, because where I'm from, eastman says how are you? They generally want to know how are you. It's not a flipping like comment or just a line, um, but I think innately most people want to share it's if they trust you enough to share with you. So that's, we have to foster that environment where you share and they share back to you, um, but yeah, it's not, it's not natural. Most people don't ask how are you? And even for me because to me I'm of the opinion that most people ask me they're not because they genuinely care. When they say how are you, like I'm okay, and then my lamb, and you'll be like, no, jocelyn, how are you? And then I'll be like, oh, you really mean it. So for me it's a learning curve as well. Even though I expect others to fully share, I don't always immediately have the thought, oh yeah, they genuinely want me to share.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So I think it's a cultural problem that we need to work on as a country.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, I agree with you because often people ask that question and they that we need to work on as a country. Yeah, I agree with you Because often people ask that question and they really they're just asking the wrong question. The question's more along the lines of it's not even a question, it's more of a statement.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Hello it's nice to see you.

Darren Evans:

As opposed to tell me how you're feeling? Yeah, because that's a deep question.

Jocelyn Bentum:

How are you feeling? Has many levels, absolutely.

Jocelyn Bentum:

It has many levels, so when you just throw that out there, it's kind of like whoa, what level do you want for me to respond? And I do agree with knowing how to phrase that question to garner the best response to um, open that conversation up. And actually, on the well-being training that we had, it was a point that was mentioned in terms of a manager, you don't just throw out that question how are you? You start off slow and then you say how is your workload? Um, how is it going with this person? And that's how you get those people to truly feel comfortable to open up the other thing I would add to that would also be timing.

Darren Evans:

So if I'm in a rush to get to a meeting and I see you passing for me to ask you how you are, I've not got the time or may not have the time to give you, for you to really express to me how you are. I may be really interested, but time may be a significant factor for me. So me to ask that question is is not great. Maybe a question I could ask is it's good to see you? When can we catch up this week? Because I'm interested to catch up and see how you're doing yeah, that's very good point.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Actually, timing is always key, especially when you are feeling stressed, that you have a lot on your plate. You don't even feel like you can take a moment to just offload. So, yeah, scheduling in a time that's appropriate to talk is important. But that actually takes me on to a good point, because when I started working at this organization, I said during pandemic when we had fully gone online and everyone turns on their camera. So then sometimes you don't. It's very hard to understand if someone is journeying or not, even when you can see their face. So something that I really struggled with was understanding who wants me to truly share and the isolation from 100% working remotely and on and online. So now I do appreciate the benefit of in-person, like office times, because you can see the person, because they've been genuine, they generally want to understand how are you doing? And then it makes you feel like, okay, I'm happy to open up, but when things are just remote and cameras are off, some people's voices don't really sound warm.

Darren Evans:

So if you're just based on your voice, you don't even want to open up yeah, I'm with you, so talk to me about your view when it comes to minority ethnic groups and also minority gender groups in the construction industry.

Darren Evans:

The reason I'm asking this question is because they're at times and it does ebb and flow there's a lot of noise that we need more women in the industry, and then sometimes there'll be a pause and then there'll be a lot of noise. We need more people from ethnic backgrounds within the industry, and as I look around at other organisations that may be deemed as our competitors, then there isn't anyone else. That's there. Everyone and every one of my competitors. They're all led by, uh, white males, so I'm the only person within my particular niche of the construction industry. That that's. That's not white. I just want to get your your view on those two, and it may be separate for you, but I just want to get your view on those two kind of calls for action, um, and the thing that I'm most interested in is your take on is it needed, is it helpful, um, and is the approach the right approach or does that need to be tweaked?

Jocelyn Bentum:

I do think it definitely is a problem. Still, apparently, last year was the highest year of intake of women in construction, which is amazing, but still there's only about, I think, 15% of the construction industry is women, so there is still a problem.

Darren Evans:

But most of those women, though, are in administrative roles as opposed to in other roles within construction, and I'm not poo-pooing that 15%, but in terms of, yeah, I think it's different to have a woman in construction that's in a non-admin role than it is to have them in an admin role. That's my personal view.

Jocelyn Bentum:

I do agree, because the expectations from you um, the expectations from you and your experiences are so different depending on which roles you are, you are in, and if 15 women, that's the whole industry Imagine how many places of management and leadership is even smaller. And I think it's such an important conversation to have because in our society we are a mixture of men and women. We bring different values to the table. We see things differently. So if you're providing, for example, providing, for example, infrastructure, building that is supposed to be suited to these different types of people, you want your designers to be representative of your end goal. And even for me, for example, when I joined this industry, I was usually the only female on site, or if I was the only female on site, I was the only female within the management side of things. So then you're kind of having to navigate this industry by yourself because you have no one to ask how do I tackle this? How do I do this? Men will yell at you, they will swear at you, they don't care, and especially when because the generation is a lot older in construction, they feel like they have this right because this is how it is, there's no willingness for them to change and understand that you approach different people differently. So for me, you need to have women in construction so that they can almost mentor younger generation, to let them understand this is how the industry is, but this is how you can navigate those scenarios that you could face. And in terms of minorities, again, why you produce a reflection should be a reflection or should benefit the people that you're tillering it. For we're such a multicultural country that we need to have people behind the scenes who are actually inputting and sharing their knowledge background so you can make what you're producing even like more well-rounded, shall I say.

Jocelyn Bentum:

And for me, for example, being a black woman in construction, I always felt like I wasn't sure how to behave. I never wanted my behavior to be seen as unprofessional, for my speaking to be seen as aggressive, like when a man is yelling at you, your reaction is to speak up, but then you don't want to be labeled as construct, also argumentative, defensive. So I kind of wish I knew someone who had gone down that path and could advise me how best to tackle these issues, and I would want the younger generation to feel like they have a mentor or they can go to someone who can tell them. This is the reality of the industry you're going in. This is how you can best be prepared to navigate these scenarios and a lot of the projects that we do, especially at my company. Anyway, they're international.

Jocelyn Bentum:

International means different cultures, so if within your team you have people from different cultures, then they can best relate to the client or best understand the design's requirement and feed into it. We have a lot of projects that are Middle Eastern, and the Middle Eastern culture and the British culture are very different. The way you speak to a client is very different. Even the working hours are very different. So if someone on your team is from that Middle Eastern background, they can then understand. Actually, this is how we have to approach this client. This is how we speak to them. So that's why it's imperative that every team is formed not just of one gender or one background, but it's representative of the service you're providing and the end goal what the service you're providing and the end goal.

Darren Evans:

So what black female uh design managers or or leaders are there for you within the industry? Have there? Have there been that? Because, from what you're saying, it doesn't sound like there was anybody. Have I understood that right?

Jocelyn Bentum:

that's very correct. There's been no one there is. So I'm an old um companies companies. When I started as a graduate, there was an Asian woman that I worked with. She was literally the only person of color that I had ever worked with and she told me stories. She used to tell me you're so lucky, you have it so easy.

Jocelyn Bentum:

When I first started off in this industry, I would get locked in. I had to use the portals. They were disgusting. They would yell profanities at me. You're so lucky. When I first started off in this industry, I would get locked in that I had to use the portals. They were disgusting. They would yell profanities at me. You're so lucky. Even though things are bad, they've been worse. So I kind of had her, but she wasn't. We didn't really get on that great. So that relationship deteriorated and since then I've never really had anyone that I can kind of go to and say these are my experiences. You've had similar shared experiences. How can you advise me and all the women in construction that I now know that are of like ethnic minority backgrounds, are people that went to university with? Or, yeah, people I went to university with, and I think there's about two in my current workplace. So, yeah, my network in that area is very small.

Darren Evans:

Quite small, and so are any of those Ghanaian, though, or any of them West African.

Jocelyn Bentum:

No, none of them. One is West African. She's Nigerian.

Darren Evans:

Nigerian.

Darren Evans:

Okay, that's an interesting combination though, the rivalry between Ghana and and uh and Nigeria.

Darren Evans:

But the the point I'm making there is you know, you, you highlight somebody from um, india, and the culture in India is so, so different than what it is in uh, in Ghana, so different and.

Darren Evans:

And so, yeah, you can say, okay, you're not white, okay, but that doesn't mean to say that you've got much else in common apart from that. And I guess that's kind of why I'm just drilling down and just asking the question about anyone else from Ghana, because the thing that I see coming out is that we want this diverse mix and so on and so on, and the thing that I've had back at me on a number of occasions is well, because this person has got a similar skin tone to you, then that must mean that you get on with them. Well, no, it doesn't, because their whole family customs, the way that they operate, the tradition of their ancestors completely different. Even their family values and traditions are completely different. You know, you made reference to, you know the stereotypical West African way of parents saying right, you need to do these types of jobs, because this is what success looks like.

Jocelyn Bentum:

That doesn't exist everywhere yeah, it doesn't, and it's even how you comport yourself in a working environment. Like I, as a ghanian, I'm very like. We're very polite, we're very demure, we kind of know how to stay in our place because we don't like to um rock the boat, whereas in, like Nigeria, they're very fiery and it's very and you, can't, don't, don't rock the boat or tip the boat over over Nigerians, exactly.

Jocelyn Bentum:

So then, if I'm going to, if I myself, where I'm more calm and collected. I'm going to Nigeria for advice. How they would tell me to approach something would be very antithetical to how I've been raised in my culture. So then you kind of need someone from your background to give you the advice that's best suited for you. Having said that, I have worked with two ghanian males. Currently, I would say, my mentor is a ghanian male and although he's not female, I would take male over nothing definitely yeah absolutely, absolutely.

Darren Evans:

So what about for someone listening um, that's younger? What advice would you give them? So maybe they've they're from um ghana, maybe they've got ancestry from ghana, but what advice would you give them if they want to progress and move on in the construction industry? Be that design management or whatever. What, what, what advice would you give those people?

Jocelyn Bentum:

I would say do it, don't make it, don't get nervous. There is this of considering. Industry has this reputation of being very brash and harsh and very male dominated. You need to be one of those men who are very loud for you to get on. It's. You can navigate your way through. I have I'm quite soft-spoken, I don't like to. Um, yeah, I'm quite soft-spoken, I feel like I like to. Yeah, I'm quite soft-spoken, I feel like I'm very nice and I've managed to navigate my way through.

Jocelyn Bentum:

But what I will say is there's so many networks for you to join and connect with people in the industry. There is Women in Construction, there is the Black People in Construction Network. There's so many networking events where you can go connect with people from your cultural background who have experience, who can become that mentor for you or someone for you to just go to and get advice from. So don't allow your preconceptions of construction to dissuade you from coming in, because there's so much like the different roles in construction is varied, so it's not all site work where you have to be around these people who will terrify you. So I don't want people to kind of use that as a way to limit their like discount the opportunity to come in the industry.

Jocelyn Bentum:

What I say is, if you're nervous, if you're unsure, reach out to these networks. Find someone that you can relate to and ask the questions that will make you feel comfortable enough to want to explore this industry. I so, yes, please connect with the network. There's so many out there on linkedin. Um, yeah, that's a lot love it.

Darren Evans:

Well, let's take your honesty and let's go into the demolition zone. So we are back in the demolition zone and you have created what appears to be. How would I describe that? Let me just think for a second. It appears to be something which is almost like weighing scales. You've got the counterbalance on either side and it's perfectly balanced in the middle. You've got a single brick there that is holding up the whole structure. I've done a really bad job at describing that, but just explain what it means.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Yeah it's quite confusing. So recently I was reading an article and it was called modern professionalism in construction, and construction is one of those industries where it's very tradition-based and we do things how it's been. We've been doing this for 50 years or so, and one of the ladies mentioned about how, within her organization, they've started this thing called reverse mentoring. So typically in the industry, especially when you're doing your charter shift, for example, you have someone who is very experienced in industry and they mentor you, they give you all their lessons learned, advice, and then that's how you grow and develop.

Jocelyn Bentum:

But because construction is so fixed in the way it always does things, there's almost this need where you need to almost flip it around, where you need to have the younger generation also mentor the older generation so they'll be more willing to change the way they approach things, be willing to accept new technologies, be willing to accept even working environments like flexible working. So this is basically depicting how we need to change the structure. So, rather than it being a pyramid where you have um top-down knowledge, it should be flipped where you have an influx of the younger generation, so of teaching the older generation or inspiring the older generation to want to change the status quo and turn things around. So that's so what I'm trying to do I love that.

Darren Evans:

That's really good and I think that I think that you're right. There's great benefit from listening to people that don't have the baggage that you have as a more experienced member of of the industry and also ask you the questions that are challenging and that are difficult, and having that attitude, like you're saying, of being open and being teachable yes really just helps things to move forward in the right way instead of just your way definitely, definitely.

Jocelyn Bentum:

And the younger generation will become the leading faces of the construction industry. So we want to be able to implement things. We don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. We want to be those who are like, okay, things don't work out, how can we change it for the better? So it needs to be the willingness to listen to the older generation and take on new ideas, and take on new perspectives and be willing to change, to adapt to modern society and how things work I love that.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, jocelyn, you've cleared it up. Now all that's left to do is for you to destroy that myth okay, I'm gonna go aggressive go for it.

Jocelyn Bentum:

Yes that was a punch do you do boxing? I don't, but I have so much internal and so much energy raging through me that I had to get it out.

Darren Evans:

So I love that. That is great, jocelyn. It's been great having you on the podcast today. I really appreciate your wisdom, your perspective. Um, I just wanted to find out one last thing before, uh, before we go, and that is, if you could tell your younger self one thing, what would that be?

Jocelyn Bentum:

be open, be vocal. I have. I have been very. I feel like I've been very burdened in this industry because I've gone through a lot of challenges and because I've never really had I've never really had anyone who I felt like I could offload to. But when people did come to me, I always closed myself off and so I internalized all the challenges and stresses and mental challenges I was going through. So it's just Jocelyn, and mental challenges I was going through. So it's just Jocelyn. Take the open answer people are offering you and just offload to them and you never know how they could help you. I feel like these past two years have been such a turning point because I vocalized all the internal struggles I was going through and how this industry has added to that and have gotten help. So don't internalize things, just speak up. People are willing to listen, they want to help you, they want you to last in the long term in this industry. So speak up and don't be nervous about what people think about you yeah, I love that.

Darren Evans:

Such great advice and that makes all the difference. You did make reference to suicide rates in the industry being high and that again, just that one thing would have a significant impact on those suicide rates within the industry definitely great advice, thank you. Jocelyn, it's been great having you on the podcast as a guest today thank you, it's been amazing, pat.

Jocelyn Bentum:

It's been amazing talking you on the podcast as a guest today.

Darren Evans:

Thank you, it's been amazing it's been amazing talking to you. Thanks very much. Good, that is a wrap. No-transcript.