Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 48 What Is Embodied Carbon? The Key to Sustainable Construction Explained

• Darren Evans • Season 1 • Episode 48

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In this episode of Thrive in Construction, we dive deep into the world of embodied carbon and its critical role in transforming the construction industry. Join us as we speak with Mirko Farnetani, a leading sustainability expert, who shares his insights on what embodied carbon is and why it’s vital to the future of building design.

Discover how embodied carbon impacts every stage of a building’s lifecycle—from manufacturing and transportation to construction, maintenance, and eventual demolition. Mirko highlights the importance of addressing these emissions to reduce the environmental impact of the built environment.
We explore Mirko’s work with the Embodied Carbon Primer, an accessible guide that has become a global reference in the industry, and discuss how innovative tools and methodologies are helping construction professionals track and minimise carbon footprints. 

Learn about the challenges of implementing circular economy principles and why the industry must move beyond a linear approach to create sustainable and resilient buildings.


If you’re curious about embodied carbon and its game-changing potential in the construction sector, this episode is a must-watch. Tune in to understand how to build a greener future, one project at a time.

LINKS:
Follow Mirko: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mirko-farnetani/
Skidmore Owing & Merrill  https://www.som.com/
Follow Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/

Darren Evans:

You have always been interested in construction, yes, and you've always been interested in sustainability or carbon.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, I would say so. Yes, Perhaps more in sustainability. Carbon was a late discovery, I mean, particularly because when I started my career, I mean carbon was not a hot topic as it is at the moment. So at the time, you know, it was more sustainability.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, I mean even when I so I set my consultancy up in 2007. Yeah, and carbon wasn't a thing then yeah. People were talking about sustainability loosely. Correct, yeah, but not really with any passion. Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.

Mirko Farnetani:

I mean, perhaps carbon came a bit later. I would say, uh, so perhaps main concern, I would say around the beginning of 19, 2019, probably. I mean to as a kind of general concern, of course. Uh, you know, the carbon idea was already. You know, obviously, since probably, I would say 2010,. Even earlier, yeah.

Darren Evans:

Interesting. We didn't see too much of that in my consultancy, to be honest, at that time. The time when things really started to pop for us was around 2019, just before COVID. And then it seemed as though that over the COVID period things just really skyrocketed.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Darren Evans:

So you've been really heavily involved in Letty.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yes.

Darren Evans:

Trying to help people understand what carbon is, where it shows up and how to look at it.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yes, let's say I was involved, let's say, in the first edition of. You know, perhaps the latest publication got more success, meaning the Embodied Carbon Primer Climate Emergency Design Guide. I mean particularly for the embodied carbon primer, I was the lead author and I was very surprised, to be honest, that it got this kind of success we were not thinking about it.

Darren Evans:

So talk to me about what is the embodied carbon primer. What is that?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yes, so the embodied carbon primer is a supplementary volume to the climate emergency design guide. Yeah, and basically it explains about embodied carbon and how to address embodied carbon, of course, in the construction industry. And I think perhaps a big success about it is because of the way to communicate this particular topic. It is very well explained, I mean through nice pictures and etc. I have to say the graphic team did a very good job.

Darren Evans:

So is it going to be full of technical jargon? Yeah, so is it. It's going to be full of technical jargon. Yeah, it's going to be full of technical references and it's going to be full of technical concepts, but if I wasn't in the construction industry, would I be able to understand, or how easy would it be for me to understand the things that are presented in it?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's say it is very well explained. Of course you need a bit of background, you know, to understand technical terms obviously. For example, you need to understand what embodied carbon is obviously, and a lot of other contents as well. For example, you should know what is the standard EN 15978, because otherwise you know you will not catch the meaning obviously so that's great.

Darren Evans:

So I don't know what the EN 15978 is yeah, what is it?

Mirko Farnetani:

so it is the standard that defines the methodology for addressing you, addressing environmental emissions coming from buildings. The edition we are using at the moment was issued in 2011. I mean, that's why I said that perhaps carbon was, let's say, in the industry, you know, before 2019.

Darren Evans:

So what you're saying is this standard came out and it was from there that we were able to build to a place where we're at at the moment, where we understand what the definition is. We understand where it's come from. Yeah, absolutely so. The standard defines the methodology to be followed.

Mirko Farnetani:

The definition is. We understand where it's come from? Yeah, absolutely so. The standard defines the, the methodology to be followed, and everything is based on the standard. For example, the RICS professional standard is based on this particular European standard and, surprisingly, it is used globally, even in Australia, but even in the US as well.

Darren Evans:

So just put in real, simple terms what embodied carbon is.

Mirko Farnetani:

So embodied carbon is the carbon emission coming from the manufacturing process of building products and for the transport of the building products, the construction of buildings, the maintenance, the replacement of any building elements over the life cycle and then, of course, what is called the end of life of buildings, meaning when a building it is demolished or replaced at the end of life. What would be the impact from all of these end of life activities?

Darren Evans:

so all of these phrases that you've come up with, I am very, very well versed with yeah and I understand what they are, and maybe a good percentage of our listeners would be in the same boat as me. Yeah, but do you think we'll ever get to a stage where embodied carbon is really understood by the general public?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, I think. To be honest, I could see over the years that people in the industry are basically understanding more and more the subject. I mean to be honest, it was nice when I first started working this subject in 2014. And I remember the first time I attended a meeting with the contractor at the time when I introduced myself as a carbon consultant. I remember, you know, the design team laughed Okay, because Like what's this?

Darren Evans:

It's not even a proper job, right A carbon consultant.

Mirko Farnetani:

Correct. Yes, what are you doing here?

Darren Evans:

Yeah exactly who's let him in.

Mirko Farnetani:

And so the way I can see the industry is at the moment, obviously I can see that the improvement has been made. Obviously I mean, by the way, recently was published the net zero carbon building standard. So you know, I mean this basically shows the big step it has been done, to be honest.

Darren Evans:

So I don't think the biggest step is producing the standard. I think that the biggest step is getting organizations together to decide and come up with that standard. So you had people from Letty, you had people from Rix, you had people from Sibsy, just all of these large organizations that historically have worked in silos.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah, all came together.

Darren Evans:

For me, that's the big wonder.

Mirko Farnetani:

Correct, yes.

Darren Evans:

The ninth wonder of the world.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is important to have an alignment, you know, between all of these organizations. But because we are working in one industry, so you know, it's important that you know all of these alignments are in place were you involved in that process? So I was involved, but only from the Leti side. I went for a review of the benchmarks, but internally within Leti.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, okay, good yeah, because we got involved too, and it was impressive. It was impressive to see people from other organizations that were just so open and free with information yeah and just so sounds like a really trite word for me to say collaborative, because yeah, I think it's an overused word, but you know, in the true sense of the word, people were collaborating in the area. So I was. It was. It was great to be part of yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Mirko Farnetani:

I agree.

Darren Evans:

You mentioned letty and that you're a part of letty yeah just help me understand your role in letty and the difference that letty is trying to make yes, um.

Mirko Farnetani:

So I mean, let's say letty uh, I mean, used to be called london energy transformation initiative, now is a low energy transformation initiative. So let's say Leti used to be called London Energy Transformation Initiative, now it is Low Energy Transformation Initiative. Let's say Leti is a group of people from the industry. The goal of Leti obviously is to discuss everything regarding sustainability, energy, carbon and etc. Everything regarding sustainability, energy, carbon and et cetera. And then, of course, to prepare all of this guidance that you know the industry is using. And I think it works very well because, to be honest, I was very surprised when I saw that you know this guidance well publication, let's say so I used in, for example, australia as well. They are mentioned in Hong Kong, they are mentioned in the US as well.

Darren Evans:

So, yeah, why is it you think that the influence has gone so far and so quickly as well? Correct yes.

Mirko Farnetani:

I think, because I think it was right time. It was at the right time and very well explained. I think this was the success.

Darren Evans:

to be honest, so if you look at someone else and this isn't I guess this is probably just a point of comparison as opposed to a criticism. So if you look at the UK GBC or the GBC, their influence doesn't feel as deep-rooted and as impactful as an organisation like Letty. Yeah, so I get what you're saying about in terms of the timing, but I think that other organisations have been there for longer and could have taken advantage of that timing.

Darren Evans:

If it was a timing thing to me that I find it difficult to um to really believe and that sounds like I'm criticizing, I'm not, I'm just just thinking is is it really a timing thing? Was? Was it a mistake, or did they have an approach, or do they have an approach that is so fundamentally different from anything else? That that's when it stood out.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, I think the great success was that the publications are very well explained, and graphically well explained as well. Normally they are not technical publication, as could be a standard. Okay, they are very well illustrated. I think this is part of the success as well.

Darren Evans:

So you're saying, then it's easier for people to understand.

Mirko Farnetani:

Correct, so it's easy to adopt, correct, but also the language as well, is not so technical as it could be, for example, in standard. But I suppose I've seen a lot of other publication by, for example, the uk jbc. Uh, I think they are great as well absolutely, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Darren Evans:

But what I also noticed? That there is a difference in impact yeah, and, and the speed as well. So the speed that letty have adopted, yeah, the hearts and minds of, uh, not just, not just property professionals, but but people across, across different parts of the world. You know, you mentioned australia yeah, as an example, but just how quickly that they've done that.

Darren Evans:

Um, and and I think what you're saying there really resonates with me, because when something's easy to do is easy to adopt yeah because you can see yourself doing it or you can understand why it needs to be done if it's full of technical, technical jargon and speech. It kind of makes you feel like, oh, I'm going to stay away from that because it's going to take a lot of brain power to figure out exactly what to do here and what's going on. So I like yeah, I really do like that. Yeah, I really do like that. Good, what is it that you're most passionate about?

Mirko Farnetani:

Well, great question. So, of course, I have great passion for sustainability and, from my point of view, what is very rewarding is when sustainability advices I provide, they are normally taken by the design team, and particularly when the design team is following, you know, is basically steering or changing the project design strategy. This is very rewarding. To be honest, I have an example which is actually part of the case study in the book, the chapter I authored.

Mirko Farnetani:

So in this case, what happened was that we were dealing with a project in King's Cross, so the project was the T2 at the time was called like that and so we performed a carbon assessment for the building and we were looking at, you know, the way to decarbonize the building. So what I noticed was that a big chunk of the carbon footprint was in the facade. So, you know, of course I tried to find a way to, let's say, reduce the carbon impact of the facade and I came out with a solution right, which was presented, you know, during a design team meeting and, to be honest, I was presenting my idea in front of, I remember there were a lot of people in front of me structural engineer, architects and a lot of other people and surprisingly, to be honest, they were basically following what I was proposing and I think this was very rewarding. And actually, when I saw for the first time their response to my obviously strategy that they had changed the facade design, particularly from the architect and from the facade engineer, that was very rewarding, very rewarding.

Darren Evans:

And the reward came because of the impact that it's made.

Mirko Farnetani:

Correct, yes, exactly yeah.

Darren Evans:

Talk to me about the publications that you've been involved in. There's a couple of books that we've got here on the table in front of you. You made reference very briefly to the Targeting Zero book. Just talk to me about that, your involvement in that and what that seeks to address.

Mirko Farnetani:

Sure, so the Targeting Zero is a book authored by Simon Sturgis, so you know, at the time he was my managing director. It is a book that explains, you know, embodied carbon and all-life carbon, and I was involved in the book because I co-authored a chapter. Particularly, the chapter is about case study for facade all life carbon implication in facades and you know, other chapters are authored by other former colleague of mine as well. But I think it was great at the time, uh, this publication because, uh, I think it was published in 2017, uh, so you know, before the period where, basically, carbon started to be more popular yeah, and what does it try to address?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, it is. In other words, it explains the embodied carbon and the all-life carbon with a lot of case studies.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, and what's it trying to do, though? So, is it just an information book, like a bit of an encyclopedia dictionary of approach, or, um, is it deeper than that?

Mirko Farnetani:

it is an illustrative book through, you know, case studies, uh, you know, just to explain better concepts.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so is it a how to just trying to discover or just trying to get clear in my mind the problem that it solves. Is it solving the problem of defining what net zero is and how to get there, or is it defining solving a different problem?

Mirko Farnetani:

No, it's not addressing net zero, I think, because at the time the net zero concept was not popular as it is now.

Mirko Farnetani:

I think, the net zero concept came a bit later but of course you know, on the book is explained all the concept around. You know the embodied and all life carbon. I mean the all life carbon is a concept itself, meaning embodied plus operational. So I think for the time it was issued it was a big step ahead, to be honest. Also, there is an introduction on circular economy concept as well. So I think at the time it was very early stage, but of course you know there is a mention of this and particularly how the carbon and the circular economy basically interact with each other.

Darren Evans:

Let's talk circular economy.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Do you think we'll ever get to a stage where things are created for a better fit within a circle economy? Because at the moment it feels like something's created to end and then we think towards the end of its life. Right, how can we plug that back in so that it can form a circular economy? It's part of a circular. Yeah, does that back in so that it can form a circular economy?

Mirko Farnetani:

It's part of a circular?

Darren Evans:

Yeah, does that make sense? So of the things that are created, are they created with circular economy in mind?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

To me it doesn't feel that way. It feels like they're just created for a linear economy, which is it's created. It now gets destroyed or hidden away.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans:

Do you think we'll ever get to a stage where the initial creation of a product is going to actually be with that whole kind of circular piece in mind?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I understand your concerns. I think that should be the final goal. I think that should be the final goal From my point of view. We are not there yet. I think we are just moving out from the linear economy at the moment. Of course, the goal is to achieve a full circular approach. You know, I can see little by little. Obviously, things are done. I suppose it is a slow process, I think, because there is a lot of investment as well. You know to make it real. Well, you know to make it real. However, you know the circular economy principles or concept is very broad. So, you know, in order to address everything, obviously it could take longer than expected.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, and it's difficult to know how long it should take as well yeah, you think about it objectively. So for hundreds thousands, however many years, predominantly, it's been a linear process Created.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Doesn't work anymore.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Or it's served its purpose. Let's get rid of it.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans:

And so I think you know maybe kind of getting a bit philosophical here that probably mirrors what we experience in life. Right, we're born yeah and we all know we're going to die yeah there isn't this lived experience which says you know that there's a circle, it's linear, isn't it? And so I think that when we think about our own way of thinking, our own paradigm, it's easy to think into a thing of, well, I make it, and then it just it's, it's broken or I hide it.

Darren Evans:

I'll put it in the ground yeah and that kind of mirrors almost what we do as as humans as well yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, sorry to get all philosophical on you, but, but. But? It seems as though that there's another approach of okay, well, well, there's a different way. Let's change the paradigm. How can we create something so that it can be reused into something else?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps there should be a shift of all the processes. I'm not sure if the industry is ready yet. At the moment, the economy is made for producing and selling, but not for taking back. Let's say I'm talking about holistically okay, because you know there is some take back activities as well, but perhaps not as it should be.

Darren Evans:

It's tiny in comparison isn't it yeah, I was speaking to a marketer not too long ago and um, we were talking about the whole thing that is being driven from the marketing sector, because marketing is all about. Let me tell you, you need this brand new shiny thing yeah and it could be anything.

Darren Evans:

It can't be a house, it can't be shoes yeah just need this brand new shiny thing yeah and and so you buy this brand new shiny thing, and then the marketing then is driven of will we need to sell more brand new shiny things? Yeah so you need this brand new shiny thing, this brand new shiny thing, this brand new shiny thing, and it isn't within marketing, generally speaking, miles away from this situation, where let me give you this and you're never going to need to come back for another one.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yes, that's a good question.

Darren Evans:

So, with our clothing, with our homes, with, our cars with all of these things. And that's the circular economy principle, isn't it? Yes, is that you have this one thing or something? That's created and then it just keeps producing.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans:

And so you see that in nature don't you.

Mirko Farnetani:

You see that in the way that trees are and the flowers are, the seed is inside, so it depends on, obviously, what industry we are talking about. You know, of course I mean we work in the construction industry, so this is different from, for example, the fashion industry, or from any other industry as well. You know, perhaps in construction, you know, all of this concept could be more applicable. But just because normally in construction buildings are made to last, so the material used, perhaps they are more robust and ready to be entered in a circular approach rather than, for example, what's happening in the fashion industry.

Darren Evans:

So I think that when we start to talk about life cycle of building being 60 years, that maybe they're not built to last.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans:

And so it's still linear as opposed to circular.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

Because all we're doing here is we're saying well, the building is going to be done in 60 years or the lifespan of the building is done in 60 years. If it goes beyond that, we're high-fiving each other, telling one another we did a great job because it's lasted longer than 60 years. If it goes beyond that, we're high-fiving each other, telling one another we did a great job because it's lasted longer than 60 years.

Mirko Farnetani:

But that's still.

Darren Evans:

It's still linear. And so the marketing? Going back to my marketing example, the marketing machine is saying you need a brand new house, you need a house, you need a new house, new house, new house. But there doesn't seem to be the marketing machine that's coming out saying look at our existing building stock let's let's make sure that we can live in this, or we can reuse that or when we are building a new house.

Darren Evans:

Let's look at the lifespan of that new house for maybe 300 years yeah, yeah you understand yeah, I understand um, I think I don't know if I'm looking at it the wrong way, so please correct me if you think that I'm completely bonkers.

Mirko Farnetani:

No, no, no, you're right. I think one of the major problems that we are facing and perhaps is the concept of obsolescence of buildings. Buildings and I mean from my point of view, you know it is fairly recent in terms of concept, because you know, if you see what used to happen in the past, you know the obsolescence of buildings was completely different.

Mirko Farnetani:

To be honest, I don't have an answer to address the problem of obsolescence of buildings, but, but you know, this is obviously to be addressed in the future. To be honest, I suppose circular economy concepts, if applicable to all the design we do, obviously I suppose a big chunk of the issue will be sorted.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, I totally think so, and I'm with you in terms of I don't have an answer to the question.

Darren Evans:

But it seems as though we are maybe awakening to the possibility of what could it look like. But I guess the point that I've found over the most recent years is that we're calling something a circle when it really is just a line. You know, are we really doing that? And so that there needs to be a paradigm shift, as in a shift in the way that we think, as opposed to how do we just bend the line a little bit and it's got a slight curve on it and we're calling that a circle.

Mirko Farnetani:

So, from my point of view, there are a lot of great principles, there are a lot of great concepts, there are a lot of great possibilities. The problem is when, um you know, everything is combined with the real world.

Darren Evans:

Uh, so books in theory, but practice precisely yes, let's talk about, um your publication yeah you have publicized some stuff yeah. I call it stuff. It's not stuff. Tell me about the publications that you have.

Mirko Farnetani:

Let's say, I've been part in a few publications and you know I mean mainly addressing, you know, life cycle assessment in body carbon circular economy. One of the fundamental perhaps research projects which comes with publications as well, was building as material banks. It was a European founded research project, so I was involved in it when I was at BRI in 2017-2019, and the goal of this research project was to enable the circular economy in the construction industry. So the website it is still active and it is possible to download a lot of publications. You know I took part in a few of them, particularly one which is very interesting from my point of view about what we are discussing at the moment in the industry is a pilot project built in continental Europe. It is a project called BRIC. At the time it was called BRIC it's an acronym and the project was designed to be built and deconstructed over, in that case was three life cycles.

Mirko Farnetani:

Okay, I mean, as it was a pilot project, obviously the aim was to explore the possibility. What we found out was that it wasn't possible to be, you know, to deconstruct and reuse everything. There was a bit of a material which was not possible to be recovered. That would be was a great lesson learned, obviously, and you know we understood the limits as well about what we were doing. I mean again, you know concept theory and practical constraints obviously.

Mirko Farnetani:

It was a very interesting project to be part of it and particularly to be part of the development of the full research project. I was particularly involved and I developed the methodology for the CBA. You know the Circular Building Assessment, which is a tool to assess the circularity of buildings, and I find this very useful in my current research projects where I'm involved, particularly one with the NREL, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. It is based in the US where we are dealing with, you know, the end of life emissions of buildings and a publication was issued a few months ago describing you know what we are doing, of course. So you know it is a. It is the beginning of the concept, obviously. So well for sure, everything will be defined better in the future.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, how many are working on that project with you?

Mirko Farnetani:

Well, we are about 10 people.

Darren Evans:

Well, I think we're in a position where we can go to the demolition zone.

Mirko Farnetani:

Okay.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, oh well. Well, you have created two towers. It looks like yes, yes. And you've been quite precise with the colours.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah.

Darren Evans:

So it was interesting to see if there's a story behind that, or if that's just chance. But what does this represent?

Mirko Farnetani:

Okay, so this represents the carbon impact of buildings, particularly the carbon impact of design versus construction, so you can see the differences. I mean normally this is what the carbon impact is during design.

Darren Evans:

So that's the smaller of the two towers, correct, yes?

Mirko Farnetani:

And this is the carbon impact, I would say post-practical completion, from my point of view. Often people believe that the design impact is the final carbon footprint, but in reality it's not Design input is the final carbon footprint, but in reality it's not, and so the myth that?

Darren Evans:

you're busting here is that what you have designed is different from what you're actually going to build.

Mirko Farnetani:

I wouldn't say every time, but it could be most of the time.

Darren Evans:

So where does that show up, where does that myth show up, and how does that cause a problem?

Mirko Farnetani:

I think it is important to be conscious of what we design and particularly what we account during the design stage of the project. Post-practical completions the emission could be higher than expected during design.

Darren Evans:

Good Well, identified the issue, identified the myth, cleared it up. All that's left to do now is for you to destroy the myth yeah oh wow, look at that side swipe. I like that. I like that. The side swipe. That is good.

Mirko Farnetani:

Well, it's been great speaking with you today and one of the things that I just want to talk about in closing yeah is the work that you do with the government, the advice that you give, the support that you give yeah and the impact that you're trying to have there so I'm part of a design review panel for the westminster city council and I think you know, from my point of view it's very it's very interesting because it is possible to see from a different angle what we normally prepare for. You know, planning application and, to be honest, I'm learning a lot, particularly about how to address, you know, the project where I'm involved on a daily basis.

Darren Evans:

What has involved them with this? With you, a practical day-to-day or month-to-month? What is it that you're involved with?

Mirko Farnetani:

Yes, so the review panel is not a weekly commitment. It is a commitment that could happen twice a year, once a year, five times per year. It really depends. It depends on the demand of all the applicants. So, in other words, the way the process works is that applicants can ask for a review by the design review panels. This happens before the planning application. So, in other words, what the applicants could do is to get advice and to get recommendations on how to further develop a project before the planning applications.

Mirko Farnetani:

So in other words, the planning application could be smoother.

Darren Evans:

And how long have you been doing that?

Mirko Farnetani:

It is about a year.

Darren Evans:

Okay, so fairly new in then.

Mirko Farnetani:

Yeah, precisely what advice would you give?

Darren Evans:

to someone that wants to develop a property within the Westminster area, or maybe even with any borough within the London area. What would you point them towards?

Mirko Farnetani:

yes, I think. Uh. So let's say, particularly in london, it is very valuable the way to retain existing structure, existing buildings. So, of course, the first advice obviously is to explore first of all any potential retention to be applied on site. What I would suggest is to basically understand what you know the local authorities demands in terms of emissions as well. This is because it would allow the applicants to design something which is in line, obviously, with the local authorities' requirements and not to have surprises during planning applications.

Darren Evans:

I think that's the thing, isn't it? The better you can plan and submit something in, the less surprises there are the chances are increased that you get what you're after. Yeah, yeah, exactly Good good, well, is there anything that you think that we've not covered, that you want to cover off?

Mirko Farnetani:

I think it was cover everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, good, good, good.

Darren Evans:

Well, it's been great having you here on the podcast pleasure.

Mirko Farnetani:

It's been great listening to your wisdom and and your perspective.

Darren Evans:

I loved your, uh, your demolition zone, especially that swipe of the left, of the right hand, even to knock all those things down. But, uh, it's been a pleasure you, uh, you, coming on. Thank you very much thank you thanks.