Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 51 Bricklaying Pays More Than You Think! Carl Harris Reveals Lucrative Career Paths
Join us on this episode of Thrive in Construction as we sit down with Carl Harris, the Managing Director of Harris Brick Safety Systems and the visionary behind the award-winning 'Brick Bud.' Carl opens up about a harrowing on-site accident where a collapsing wall nearly cost him his life. He sheds light on the alarming underreporting of incidents in the construction industry and stresses the importance of safety protocols.
Additionally, Carl offers invaluable insights into the lucrative opportunities in bricklaying, explaining how young professionals can enter the industry and potentially earn more than doctors. This episode is packed with expert advice and essential information for anyone looking to thrive in the construction sector.
LINKS
Website: https://harrisbricksafetysystems.com/
Carls LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carl-harris-412178107/
Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
Work with Darren: https://darren-evans.co.uk/
So there's rumours going around on the internet that brickies get paid £1,000 a week.
Speaker 2:Easy and more. Yeah, I've got a couple of good friends in Teesside now I'd say £38, £39 a week, clearing £1,800 to £2,000, sometimes more.
Speaker 1:What do they need to do that? So I'm thinking now, if I'm 16 years old and I'm struggling to realise how the heck I'm going to move out of mum and dad's house and afford my own place, if I could earn that type of money each week, then I can see a clear path of moving out. What does a 16 year old need to do to earn that type of money and how long will it take?
Speaker 2:the 16 year old. Basically, he just needs to know his goals are. I'd say get into the brick lane as soon as possible how do you do that? Where'd you start? Well, it used to be the white, I guess, years ago. So you can approach any college. I know that it's changed. I remember years ago you didn't need as many qualifications. Now the qualifications have changed. I think you've got to have a minimum.
Speaker 2:I think it's a C in English, go straight into it. And then, as soon as they've started the college, they'll be taught. Obviously they'll learn from the curriculum, the health and safety side, the health and safety file, and then they will start with models, building models, and see how they progress over time. And then I think it's after the If it's still the same, darren, I think it's the first or second year then they day release and then you go to your third year apprenticeship. That's when they start making money and that's where the builders are taking you on board and taking a gamble and paying you a bit of wage. That's when you start getting your bonuses, your incentives.
Speaker 2:And then, after the, the third year, obviously you'll have your day release. Uh, you go to college once a week maybe, do some more modulums and then and then after about I think it's about six months to a year, and then that's it. You'll be straight on about about 19-year-old. You'll still be learning, you'll still have to pick your speed up. You'll still be learning from your predecessors, setting out and just picking your speed up and getting all the knowledge, and I'd say by 20-year-old, that's when the big money starts coming in.
Speaker 1:Okay so you can go from 16 to age 20, so within four or so years. Yeah, you apply yourself and you can be earning some good money.
Speaker 2:That's it, even 18-year-olds. I was talking to a couple of guys when I visited Harbordshire College, delivered a demonstration to all the students. One of the guys had just won the Brickle Lane event, the super travel event. A young guy called Ben, and he was telling us that he was currently starting to make the money. Now they were putting him in the footnotes Obviously, footnotes. You get about £152 per block. I know that's in Teesside, I don't know what the money is down in London, but he was making some good money. He was telling me. I said stick out a pen. He said I am definitely. And then the last time I seen him that's when he'd won the event. So he's going places. He's keen for it as well.
Speaker 2:There can't be a A lot of these young'uns now. They just like to sit in the house, play on the computer. It is easy. But bricklaying and the construction industry, it's thriving. It's really thriving In my eyes. They're getting paid more than doctors. Bricklayers are getting paid more than doctors. It's crazy. I mean, we're in the Champions, we're in the EFL League and they're getting paid nearly enough the same as a footballer. Some bricklayers, wow, no, it's crazy, it really is.
Speaker 2:But the thing is though, darren, it's going to come to a point there where we can't get the trades Because, as you know, we've got all these trades retiring. You've got your Jones, your bricklayers, your Sparkies, you've got them all and they're all retiring. We've got no one coming through, no one at through, no, not all. And labour is trying to go for a 1.5 million house boom. Where's the trace? How's that actually going to happen? Do you think? I don't know. I really don't know. Darren, it's all right saying, yeah, we're going to build 1.5 million houses where they're getting the weather, where they're getting the trace from the doorway.
Speaker 1:We're short now I know lots of people. When they talk about that statistic, they talk about planning being an obstacle, they talk about land being unlocked, building on greenbelt, but the issue that I hear from the industry is around the trades all the time there's not enough people to actually physically put block on top of block or attach wood to wood or actually construct it isn't.
Speaker 2:There's no trades. We haven't got the trades out there. There's no way that can cover 1.5.5 million houses. No way in God's eye. I don't know where they're getting these figures from. I really don't. We're struggling now, and I mean in 2022. I think we built 242,000 houses, 25% of timber framed obviously Scotland and you get, like, numerous other house builders who will build the timber frames and 18 189 000 were traditional brick and block and we struggled, struggled. Then. That was in 2022, when, when I started this project and then I know that last year it was. I know we've had covid since we've had a few issues and there was talks of a recession, but it's like you say there about the the greenfield, there's a lot of companies now going for the brownfield as well. They're just buying all this. You know the bad land, regenerating it all. But, like you say, back to the shares, I just I really don't know how we're going to cope. I really don't.
Speaker 1:You had a accident on site that changed your life. Yeah, what happened there I was.
Speaker 2:I built the wall just to your normal guidelines, which is 18 course, 1350 millimeter high. Normally I ask you to build it that height and then back it up with a brickwork blockwork, or you do vice versa you can put the blockwork up first, which is six course, and then you can back it up with your brickwork. We took the brickwork up, started wind started picking up, slightly, braced it all, braced all the walls with the timber method. It's still ongoing now.
Speaker 1:So what is that? Just explain what the timber method is for those people that are watching that don't understand.
Speaker 2:It's anything you can find. Basically, okay, just get a scrap bit of wood, so a pallet, an empty pallet, a piece of 4B1, a scaffolding board, anything you can find. You put against the wall, yeah, put another piece against it at an angle, a diagonal, with a couple of blocks at the bottom, and hope for the best Right, I don't know if it doesn't on me right so I was lucky to just get away.
Speaker 2:Just my back, left leg was trailing, pin me to the floor. Pin my leg to the floor, crushed like life-changing injuries, hummus operations. They don't want to give me a ankle replacement or a fusion now, but I'm just trying to hold off. I'm in pain every day, every single day, every morning, every night. So but yeah, and that's, that's a method. It's still ongoing now, darren. Well, how long ago was this? Karl Six? Seven years ago, I think.
Speaker 1:And were you still on-site building?
Speaker 2:So you'd set up the yeah, we'd set the bracing methods up and I was going round the wall. I might have left one of my toes, I can't remember it might have been my brick hammer, whatever it was. Walked round the other side of the wall to pick it up. Goes to win just took the full wall, took the wall and obviously I was under it. Like I say, I was very lucky to walk away from it. Well, limp away from my life. So you would have been off work. Yeah, nearly two, yeah, two years off work. Four operations Nearly lost my house. My mental health suffered. I had no money coming in. My car lost my car. Family had to bail us out. Bad time for us. Uh, well, it still is when you go back and you think it could have been avoided.
Speaker 1:You know, oh yeah, some bad time, really bad time for us as a family it also seemed as though, from speaking with you before, that this was a catalyst for you as difficult and I don't want to downplay how difficult this was so nearly losing your house. When we had the conversation, you made reference to your relationship with your wife. Yeah, being really, really strained.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course it was yeah, and maybe I'm downplaying that by saying, no, I know it wasn't great, yeah, the family couldn't leave. Yeah, because I was a nice person to be around and mental health and really suffered. So yeah, yeah, no problem so.
Speaker 1:So how did you cope? What was your coping mechanism while I was off where at that time? Life is difficult with your family life, um, your, your home is on the line. You're, you're, you're in pain, you're going through these operations. How did you cope with all that? What was your mechanism? Coping the?
Speaker 2:coping, uh, I think, to be honest, I was just out of it of painkillers it was?
Speaker 2:I don't know. To be honest, it was just, it was hard. It was very hard times. I just think we were going to pull through it. Like I said, the painkillers helped a lot in a way. Then that affected my mental health again and then it was just, I just thought I've got.
Speaker 2:I did try and go back in the brick lane. I thought, right, I'll try and get in the brick lane again. But I tried for a week and there was no way. There was no way to do it. So then, so physically not possible. It was physically not possible. I couldn't stand up for long enough. And then, obviously, lifting the 20 kilogram blocks or 20, it depends if you've got four inch, six inch you stood up all day and then you've got your uneven ground, your uneven surfaces, trying to just walk to where we're working. It just wasn't there. We just couldn't do it. So I decided to change my career path. I studied my NEBOSH, passed my general certificate in health and safety, couldn't get nothing with that. So I decided to go down the SMSDS site managing route and within about a week or so I think I got a job straight away because of all my background. Your experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:27 years in the construction industry down and five well, as a bricklayer and five as a senior site manager so how did you then use this really difficult period in your life and how did that get turned into your passion at the moment and what you're involved with?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, funny enough, it was covid. Covid happened. So I'd put when I'd had the accident. I thought of something but I put on the back burner. I put it put on the back of my mind because I was busy I was site managing at the time but I had the idea there, put some sketches together and then I just put them away in the cupboard.
Speaker 2:And then I was working for a builder in Teesside and Covid, he had the pandemic and I got he let me go with no furlough. So I didn't get no money. So I had a hell of a lot of time on my hands. So for months I was putting sketches together. I approached a draftsman. We started working together. Then we approached a patent attorney. Patent attorney doing a bit of digging. I had a look about. He said carl's nothing out there. He said you're onto something. So from then I was again. That was. That was quite stressful because my sleep pattern had gone, because I was waking up in the middle of the night and just coming up with more ideas and adding bits and thinking well, that's going to be easier that way. I was trying to make it as simplistic as possible for the bricklayers to use, as easy, because I know the bricklayers are prima donnas on the building site.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that prima donnas?
Speaker 2:They just think they own the site, they think everyone owes them something, so they're just like right, I want this, I want that, and they expect everything basically, they're the divas, are they?
Speaker 2:yeah, they're just they're just the the thing, yeah, the full building, side doors and everything. So I'm trying to make it as easy and simplistic for the guys and girls as possible. So, yeah, we uh, from then we got approached by the government the net zero innovation scheme so that allowed me I was site managing at the time. I started as a site manager, uh, after covid, and then we we started working with the government the net zero scheme and this allowed me to put 100 time and effort. I think I was working for about a year, a year or so, with a big nursing home builder and they said, right, we're going to give you a large amount of money, you can draw a wage from this for six to eight months. Get you your help, you achieve your fea, your prototypes. So I worked with the government, carried all this out, and then that finished in 2023, in april or may 2023, and then I self-funded quite a bit of it and then we applied for the PCT patent, as my patent was already running the GB patent. So we applied for the PCT patent and then, and then after that, we worked with another company, got some more prototypes made.
Speaker 2:We've changed, changing material up. Originally, the material was poly propylene, which was 80% recycled plastic. That was when I was working the government. But then we found out, when we got all the tests and carried out, that it wasn't practical enough and it would only withstand gale force, one winds, which is 44.7 mile per hour, and we'd need one on a gable end wall, say, eight and a half nine meter wall. We'd need one every foot. By the time we set all them up, darren, it's the wall that'll come down here. We need something simple, quick and easy to install. So we got approached by a company who were dealing GIP glass, reinforced plastic and.
Speaker 2:I said, right, make us some prototypes. So we got six prototypes made, carried out, some more testing, got some FEA testing and another final analysis carried out, which is computer software. I wasn't really happy with the results. I didn't think they were ringing true to me because it was coming up on a wall at 450 high, just two courses high on, on an eight-metre stretch. You'd only need one on that end and one on that end with an eight-metre gap in the middle. And I said no, I said I've lost a wall at two metres long, 450 high, two courses high. I said that's not right.
Speaker 2:So I decided to buy some materials, went to a good friend's site, Built two walls. We got in touch with an engineer. He came out and tested it. A failure and we achieved 11 on the Boford scale, which is 73 mile per hour, which is just under 100 game wins, set at three meter spacings. So we had that test and carried out. And then I wasn't really happy with that. I was approached. Well, I approached a couple of house builders. House builders are very interested. They're like have you got your temporary works designs? I said not as yet. No, he said right, you need to get your temporary wax designs for us to take this on board. So we got our temporary wax designs this was about six, seven months ago and we give it to Morgan Sindles. Morgan Sindles had passed it with flying colours and I was told off the main health and safety guy that they will pick the bones out with this car and it's going to temporary works designs Straight through, straight through gone.
Speaker 2:I couldn't believe it. So that was champagne time. So from then, we, what else have we done? So, yeah, we've got the temporary works designs, we've got Morgan Sindel's and we've got Love Alone's on board. Before that we've got Chris Nicholson's on board, so we had the two house builders. And then we've changed it up slightly.
Speaker 2:We approached the temporary works designer the temporary works designer for to pass it. He said that I needed another horizontal strut at the bottom. He said there was deflection at the bottom and I didn't really want to argue with him. But I did tell him it's impossible. You never lose a wall from the first course down because all your load bearing is from the top to the bottom. If you lose a wall below, it's if a car's crashed into it. So he said it's what my computer's telling me. So I said, well, your computer's wrong, like a sketch off that david williams. And yeah, computer says yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But I argued and I said, well, you've just cost me a large amount of money to tell me my maternity works, I'm working. And he said, well, I can't do anything about it. So me, being me really, looked at the product and phoned him back in half'm working and he said, well, I can't do anything about it. So me being me re-looked at the product and phoning back in half an hour and I said, right at the bottom, strut, I've measured it. I measured the bottom, it won't catch, I've worked everything out. Went back, phoned back 10 minutes later he said, oh, it's passed. It would have passed anyway, but I could. It's, it's a tick box. I don't want to call them, but it's in. 27 of bricklaying I've never seen a wall collapse from the bottom.
Speaker 1:It's impossible, it's not the way gravity works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not possible.
Speaker 1:Darren it really isn't, so this is interesting, okay. So what does this look like?
Speaker 2:The brickboard is just like an A-frame. So, yeah, it's just a yellow A-frame. It stands up, it's in contact with the full wall, it's pressed up against the wall and then we've incorporated the T-clamp, the bricklaying T-clamp, so the T-clamp slides through the bed joint and then you turn it 90 degrees and it hooks on the back of the block wagon, the cavity side, and then you just tighten it. But then we've also to better read on the ball foot scale, more load bearing. We've incorporated a couple of bolts as well on the foot, so it's just like an airframe rather than just having one, one horizontal. Now there's two added. Okay, but it's. It's so easy to set up down, and I mean, originally we didn't have a bolt in it. I didn't want to have a bolt in the, in the slab or in the joist, because I thought it was. It's too many tools and the brick layers will moan on, and but we had to have it to achieve the 73 mile per hour and so what impact is that making on site?
Speaker 1:you've mentioned a number of house builders. What impacts it making with them?
Speaker 2:well, the bench that there's, chris Nicholson started it down down Suffolk. We had a couple of meetings with them, so I know. Now I'm just waiting for a full health and safety report. But I've been in talks with the site manager and he has informed me. He just put a post on LinkedIn a couple of days ago actually Put a post on and he said it's the best thing we've ever bought because I think he was losing an excessive amount. I think the site was going to run in six or seven months the amount of walls it lost. I think it was running about 20, 30, tens of thousands of pounds worth of damage. It was materials and they haven't lost a wall since on that site.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Since they've implemented the brick put on that site.
Speaker 1:It's well known in the industry that walls come down on a frequent basis. Yes, but they don't get reported?
Speaker 2:No, they don't, and that is the issue. That down on a frequent basis, yes, but they don't get reported no, they don't, and that is the issue with that. That's the biggest hurdle we're facing, because you've got your directors sitting at the top. I've got nothing against directors. They've probably went to university. They went from straight from university to sit at the top sitting in a nice big cozy office. I don't think the majority of them I'd say well over 90 percent have never started at the toes first and worked their way way up, so they don't know what is going on, and so I think that's the key thing.
Speaker 1:Right is that they don't know the tricks of the trade in that area, no, the things that get swept under the carpet or thrown in the bin.
Speaker 2:No, they don't know. I mean, I've approached numerous house builders and the emails I've got some of them. When I've read through them I thought, gee, you shouldn't have said that, because if I could show that to your director, you'd be down the road. That's the head of safety admitting the losing walls. Why doesn't it get reported? Right? So you've got excessive paperwork. So, site manager, I've done it as much. I've been on both sides of the fence, darren, as you know, I've done it as a site manager, I've had it done to me as a bricklayer. So it starts you've got your excessive paperwork. You've got your pay pressures from above, you've got your insurance premiums rising, so they'd rather just get rid of the evidence and pay the bricklayers to start again. It's as simple as that and that is it so what should happen is the wall comes down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you took me from there. Then what should happen at that?
Speaker 2:point. Well, if the wall comes down, it should be getting reported straight away. Then them should be reporting it to the health and safety to say we've had an emus on site, right, no, it goes straight and escape. The bricklayer will go and see the site manager Say it's happened the night before, say it's happened the day before They've went in and worked.
Speaker 1:Coming in the next morning.
Speaker 2:The walls are on the floor, all the timber's on top of the blocks. So the site manager will say to the bricklayer did you brace it? Yes, I braced it last night. I'd show him your photographic evidence. So you've got to show him the photo. When you brace your wall you've always got to take a photo of your work to prove so you can get paid. So you'll show him. The site manager will say right, they'll pay you.
Speaker 1:So do they put it in the skip and then cover it over, or is it just in the skip and everyone can see it's?
Speaker 2:there.
Speaker 1:Everyone knows on site what's going on, but no one flags up with anything.
Speaker 2:It's just it's normal, that's it. It's just, it's normal. It's not even frowned upon, darren, I mean it'll just go straight in the skip and then that's it. I mean they could have lost a few walls. It's just, it's a regular case. It happens all the time. It'll be happening today happen tomorrow.
Speaker 1:So the thing that is commonplace in the industry. So this is you're saying it's a daily thing, right? Oh, yeah, 100% the that nearly cost you your leg. Yeah, my life, my life and your life, yeah, yeah, that's happening on a regular basis. Yeah, I would then assume that there are other people in your position on a regular basis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would then assume that there are other people in your position, yeah, that have had accidents on site and the site manager just washes the hands of it, generally speaking. So I mean you know we're talking about things here which um clear, significant health and safety issues yes, so I'll tell you the story, what actually happened to me.
Speaker 2:So to keep my mouth shut, to not report anything, the site manager offered me. Well, he did give me, and I took it like a, like an idiot. I think it was six that. So we were on price work. Yeah, I think we were getting 550 pound per thousand. Yeah, so he said, if you don't say anything, carl, I will give you six thousand pounds worth of price. So I took it. I think, whatever it was, it's three thousand something pound on top of my wage, right? Well, bear in mind I was off work for two months there too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that didn't yeah, just to keep my mouth shut. This happens happening all the time.
Speaker 1:Really, it's down and so the incentive there? I mean you. You referred to yourself as an idiot there, but I guess that's in hindsight, because you now understand the full impact of that injury. Yeah, where, at the time, what was in your mind? I'll just be off.
Speaker 2:I'll be off for a couple weeks, yeah, yeah didn't realize how bad it was yeah I thought I was going to be off a good few months, but then it was just obviously after the first operation, the second operation and then they were just saying, look, we really can't do anything with it. You said, the amount of arthritis you've got in it now it's really, really bad. It was just like all the front of my leg where your foot lifts up. At the front there that is just. I can't lift my foot up. I've lost my left calf. It's all muscle definition. I'm limping all the time. Basically Significant.
Speaker 1:Yep. So this thing here is not just overcoming a health and safety issue. It seems like that you've also got the ability here, with this product, to completely change the culture yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:Safety culture doesn't need changing. This culture could change, especially incorporating and implementing the brick budget on the sustainability side.
Speaker 1:There's an impact there too, right right massive really big.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is, uh, it's, it's frightening. It really is when, when you, when you look back and you work out the walls that are lost per year, what go go and report it. When I first started with the government, we had to put some statistics together to get the back end to make it appealing for the judges, and just reported walls. I think the annual loss was £12.65 million just on reported walls £12.65 million walls.
Speaker 1:No pounds. £12.65 million of wool comes down each year, and that's just the reported ones.
Speaker 2:These are just reported. But then the CO2, the carbon footprint, co2 emissions is 946, just short of 1,000 tonnes. That's just reported walls. Now, people, I've spoken to many health and safety advisors, and I was talking to a lady last week, a week before and they all know what's going on.
Speaker 2:They all know that these walls are going on and she just laughed down the phone and I said are you reporting all your walls? And she laughed she didn't know. It's surreal, the amount that are going unreported down there really is how many do you think?
Speaker 1:actually come down in a year, would you reckon the true number is the true number.
Speaker 2:Well, I've worked this out in all different ways, Darren.
Speaker 2:I've worked it out on bricklayers squads losing walls or houses. But we work it out with my past experience, with my business partner's past experience who's still a site manager now with other guys I talk to on LinkedIn. It with my past experience, with my business partners, past experiences still a site manager now with other guys I talked to on LinkedIn project managers, contracts managers, site managers. I was on site manager a couple of months ago. He had one site, a hundred house building, hundred properties in the building for one of the major house builders and one of his sites alone.
Speaker 2:I think he lost 40 on 100 houses just on one side Just on one side and these walls if it's an average gable end wall about 810 bricks, say 800 bricks per gable Clean-up fee. Sorry, waste management, you've got your labour, your materials. You're talking a £3,500 wall just to put that back up. It's a lot of money.
Speaker 1:How many do you think come down in?
Speaker 2:a year. Then put that back up. It's a lot of money. How many do you think come down in a year? Then we'd say, out of 189 000, we're saying 20, 23 percent of walls, which is 40, I think it's, for it's a 43 740 per year. By the 3 500 pounds, about 152 million.
Speaker 2:Significant, yeah, massive, but this down as well. We know that this is without. This is just a residential sector, yeah, yeah, this isn't commercials, this isn't in our hospitals, your hotels, but the more, the more people I speak to like there's there's a couple of editors out of two, two big magazines or being tarno, and the publisher already published the brick board and he said it's, it's hit home with him because one of his I think it was his brothers or his dad's really good friend had died with a wall collapse on him. And a lady from the HSE. She contacted me, she was telling me a story and she said it's really hitting home with me. I'm getting ghost pimples now. She said I had to investigate a guy who'd been crushed by a wall and yet I delivered the all my findings to his widow.
Speaker 2:So it's happening. It's happening all the time. I was talking with another guy and his excuse me, his hod carrier was walking past a wall and the full concrete wall came down on him. I think they put him out for 18 months, he told me Smashed his pelvis. It's the non-reporting Darren, and this is a mindset we need to change. I know we won't change our culture, and this is what we do need to change, because it's going to end up costing them a lot of money. Just imagine every wall wallet gets blown down, the insurance premiums are going to skyrocket. They really are.
Speaker 1:I mean that's why, when I was first made aware of your product, I thought it was so good, because I think it does have the ability to change the culture. Yeah, 100%, because it's going to be a lot easier and cheaper for your product to be purchased instead of for the wall to come down and then for the site manager, then to pay someone to build it back away and then build it back up exactly it's going to save a load of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I don't think anyone wants the wall to fall down, right, but but it seems as though from the whole process that the painful part is having to replace sorry, is having to report that the war has come down and then the implications of that from the insurance and the health and safety and people. Just the site managers don't want the hassle and that seems to be the the main issue here. So putting your product there removes the hassle for them yeah, in both areas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. The thing is, darren, is that it's when we talk about the health and safety implications, like insurance insurance premiums rising I train the lads up, the operatives up. Now I train them all up and there was a bricklayer sat there and he said I see him complaining. I said what's wrong? He said this I've got to fix this to the ground. He said that's going to take too long. I said this takes one minute 30 seconds. So by the time you've ran round side scoured for timbers, I will have fixed these six brick buds to that wall and moved on to my next wall and started making more money on that wall no I said I'm 100 confident would you like to race on site, would you like to try it out?
Speaker 2:and he was just looking and he started complaining. I I thought you're just a morning bricklayer, that's all you are. I've been there for 27 years, I know how it works. So anyway, cliff had to jump in because I was getting a bit. I wasn't getting knackered. You're passionate really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm very passionate, darren, I really am passionate and I was like so Cliff had to jump in and he said no. He said, right, cal, what he's saying is and I'm like, right, okay. But then when we went on the site and we were talking, then I was talking to Brick Lane Jag, and we were talking about bricks, talking about the gauges, blah, blah, blah, and he said, oh well, it doesn't look too bad. And then he changed his tune. He said how heavy is it? I said 8.1 kilograms, pick it up. So he's picking it up. And is what you need to understand is I said if you use these timber methods, you'll put these timber methods up against a wall.
Speaker 2:It could be overnight. The wall comes down. It could be a trespasser who's rummaging around the site, it could be a child. I said if that wall comes down on a trespasser, on an operative, on a visitor, anyone on site, you are liable. You are liable for prosecution, cobra, manslaughter or fines. And he looked. He said no. I said I'm telling you. Now. I said have you got public liability insurance? He went I have. I said what is it to? Five million, ten million? He said ten million. I said right, that's void. And he looked. He said what do you mean it's void? I said have you got plenty of money for a good solicitor? And he just changed his tune straight away down. I just shot him straight down. He was oh well, yeah, it's a decent idea, it's a good idea, yeah, but now they're using it. Now they're using it and they haven't lost a wall since.
Speaker 2:But there was some old school bricklayers I said years ago, when the NHBC come in, we got told we had to start jointing, jointing the cavity side of the block where, brushing it off. We all mourned we didn't get extra money for it. What do we do Now is a normal procedure. We do it and we don't even bat an eyelid and they're like right, yeah, but it's still not for us has come through.
Speaker 2:But we, I said but you're not listening, you're liable for any feelings. You can go to court and I'm removing that. You've got a duty of care and I'm removing this from. You've done everything possible to brace them, walls, everything. And if they do fail you know the products tested at 75 mile per hour. We could look at the weather report and say, right, we had 83 mile per hour winds. Or 80 mile per hour winds, say, say the system failed, they've still done everything possible as a joke to your cat to keep everyone safe on site down. So they've moved the liability straight away and this is what they're starting to register with them now. It's taking its time.
Speaker 1:It's interesting isn't it how resistant to change we can be? I think we're in a position now where we should go to the demolition zone, carl. We're in a position now where we should go to the demolition zone, carl. Yeah, we're in the demolition zone. You've built a wall. It's a very good wall, but what does?
Speaker 2:this wall represent. This wall represents the walls that reported and the walls that are unreported what percentage of walls are reported? I'd say two percent, 98, go and report 98 go unreported.
Speaker 1:But there are people out there that believe that 98 get reported as opposed to 98, don't get reported.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? It really?
Speaker 1:is what impact would it make if all of the walls got reported?
Speaker 2:If they all got reported, obviously it would be bringing in a safety system. I'm not trying to push my safety system, but the walls that go reported, it could make an impact with cost. It will cost them more money, obviously, why they're going unreported. So if they don't report them, then the insurance premiums going to go through the roof. As we know, I think it's 90 near misses now and see this. This is another thing as well, darren with the near misses. If there's not for every 90, 90 near misses, we have a serious injury. That could have been me with bracing my walls 90 times. So yeah, it's just a knock-on effect and that is the impact and that's probably why they aren't going to report it. It really is.
Speaker 1:So your message, Kyle, is report the walls, brace it properly, using a product that has been designed to prevent the walls from coming down, as opposed to just any old bit of timber that you can find on site, Definitely yeah. Stop these walls coming down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it needs most. It's got to be done, it's got to be carried out, darren.
Speaker 1:I think, carl, you're able to just destroy that myth Swervin. How did that feel? Very good.
Speaker 2:I built it back up. I'll get my spittle. I've got a little spittle level in my bag.
Speaker 1:Yes, good, carl, you know, the work that you're doing is really needed and it's really inspirational. And the reason I'm saying it's inspirational, or why I find it inspirational, is because you've taken something yeah that was a tragedy in your life yeah, just a really dark moment in your life, and you're turning that into an area of your life.
Speaker 1:Now that you're bringing uh, you're making a difference to people, yeah, you're bringing light to people yeah and you're bringing that prospect of no one needing to face the situation that you have faced and that other people have faced, where their life has not only been has been in jeopardy but actually has been lost as a result of that.
Speaker 1:So I think that that's inspirational, that you've been able to take that tragedy, yeah and turn that into something that's really making a positive difference in in the world and and in the world of construction, which is definitely needed. I've not physically seen your product, but I've heard lots of good things about it. There's two in the world of construction, which is definitely needed. I've not physically seen your product, but I've heard lots of good things about it. There's two in the car actually. Maybe I should pop out and have a look later on. But yeah, absolutely excited for that, I wish you all the best for your business moving forward, and my hope is that you're going to be able to really utilize and leverage the potential that is within this product that you've got.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, thank you.
Speaker 1:Carl, do you have any last words or last thoughts for those people that are listening to the podcast? That will help them to be able to better thrive in construction.
Speaker 2:Just be safe, safe as possible, that's all I can say is just don't cut any corners, like I did, because it's a dangerous, dangerous game out there. It really is. And if we can make an impact now for the future, for our future generations, educate them and learn, not learn off the predecessors. Learn on the safe way, not only to brace walls, but to work safely. Like I say, there's no narrative on the product as yet, but these things need to change, definitely, darren 100%, kyle, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, Darren Take care Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks for watching to the end. Please remember to like to share and to subscribe Also. I think you'll really like this one.