Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 53 The Silent Risks in Construction: Are Our Buildings Safe Enough?

• Darren Evans • Season 1 • Episode 53

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In this compelling episode of Thrive in Construction, Darren sits down with Neil Weeks, CEO of ARC Building Solutions, to tackle one of the most critical issues facing the industry today: fire safety in construction. ARC specialises in cavity fire barriers and cavity closers, making Neil a leading voice on the subject. Together, they explore the devastating impacts of fires, not only on structures but also on entire communities and the construction sector as a whole. Reflecting on tragedies like Grenfell, Neil and Darren discuss the evolution of fire safety measures and the urgent need for continued reform.

Neil brings his expertise to the forefront by sharing sustainable, eco-friendly fire prevention strategies that ARC is pioneering. These innovative solutions not only enhance fire safety but also help reduce the industry’s carbon footprint. As construction faces the dual challenges of ensuring safety and promoting sustainability, Neil offers a clear path forward, demonstrating how integrating green practices into fire safety protocols can create safer, more resilient buildings while contributing to environmental protection.

This episode is essential viewing for anyone in the construction industry, whether you're on the ground or in a leadership role. Neil's insights provide crucial knowledge on how to protect both people and the planet.

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon to stay up-to-date with the latest episodes of Thrive in Construction. Join the conversation in the comments below—what are your thoughts on sustainable fire safety practices? 🚧

LINKS
Follow Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
Follow Neil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilweeks/
ARC Building Solutions: https://www.arcbuildingsolutions.co.uk/
Instagram:   / thriveinconstruction 
TikTok:  / thriveinconstructionpod 







Neil Weeks:

I think the key role of any CEO is a facilitator and, in essence, other people look good and making bringing the best out of other people and understanding what makes everybody tick so you can take those people on the journey with you. And also it's making sure that the people understand what you're about and also what the objectives of the business are. It's a lonely place. You have to let people in in order for you to prosper, for them to prosper, for them to do well. I think the people do change their attitude towards you when you have a title. That is down to you to then make people understand that it's not about the title. It's about what you can bring to them and what they can bring to you. When I took over the business back in 2019, it was a smaller, family-run business that had aspirations to grow which we've done now into an SME, and that's all because of the people I've guided and I've led, but it's all because of the good people that we have around us. How do you find good people? It's difficult. You can see things in people that you have within the business and you can build on that and mould people into how the business needs to function, but it's really, really challenging to find good people. You're never, ever going to find perfection. I never aim to be perfect. It's just making sure that you can find the people that have a similar mindset, want to learn and want to grow.

Neil Weeks:

Some people outgrow the business. The business outgrows some people. Don't be afraid to change. I think that's a key mantra is always look outside to see what's available. If there's a set of skills that the business doesn't currently have, we're not afraid to do that. We've done that very successfully at times.

Neil Weeks:

Other times we've developed people from within the business who've got something about them, who want to learn and want to take their own career forward and don't be afraid to take a risk on someone, particularly where someone's been with a business a number of years. They may have unknown skills that until you ask and find out about them as a person, what they're about, you can't really unlock that and then harness that. Big advocates of learning and we have a big learning culture. We have have electronic learning. All of us throughout the business, including myself, on a monthly basis, do a number of small training courses online. It may be such things as drug and alcohol awareness. It may be something such as updating building regs or health and safety regs, but it's all relevant to everybody in the business to learn. We have a strong learning culture, which can only take us forward.

Darren Evans:

I want to talk fire. That's your speciality? I like to think so. Yeah, was Grenfell a surprise to you? No, why not?

Neil Weeks:

When you look at the outputs of even pre-Grenfell likes of Lacknell House and other fires that didn't have the same severity of fatalities. The learnings weren't taken on board by industry and that's not necessarily anyone's fault directly, but it took a massive tragedy such as Grenfell for people to sit up and take notes and go right. What happened here? What can we do better? Not that any of the types of products that ARC supply were culpable, but the whole system of supply and installation and learning and making sure that everything was done correctly was I think the judge called it somewhere between incompetent and corrupt. I think that in itself is a learning for all of us to make sure it never ever happens again.

Darren Evans:

When you talk about all of us, who do you mean? Because it seems like everybody and nobody all at the same time Like everybody and nobody all at the same time.

Neil Weeks:

Well, when you look objectively at the Grenfell Inquiry, in order to get to the truth, there was an offer of immunity from prosecutions. Everybody that gave evidence was required to give evidence honestly so that we'd get to the truth. And all of us means anybody in that construction sector, anybody that's got anything to do with any building not just high-rise buildings has a responsibility to do it right. Do the right thing and you'll do it right. The industry's focused for a number of years on carbon reduction, on making sure that buildings are as thermally efficient as possible. For good reason, fire safety particularly 2017, wasn't at the forefront of people's minds. I think the learning process in general wasn't, and I think there were corners cut and, because it was a refurbishment, it was more a case of well, the building is just being re skinned, for want of a better word. It'll be all right, won't it? And I think responsibility is on all of us to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Darren Evans:

It's interesting when I think about the metrics of success within not just the construction industry but any organisation. Often it appears to be that financial success, or saving money here or there, or making more money here or there, appears to be the litmus test of what success looks like. And I remember reading a post from either you or one of your colleagues when they said that someone had saved five pounds on a firestopper and they were celebrating the fact that they saved five pounds on a firestopper. But when you asked the question of has it been tested? Has it got the required certificates Effectively? Trying to check its integrity, it was found wanting. But it seemed as though the success was save myself a fiver.

Neil Weeks:

Yeah, we encounter a lot of inquiries where people are trying to cut corners still or trying to achieve something that's A not compliant or B isn't physically possible. Fire testing criteria is pretty strict and stringent. It either works or it isn't physically possible. Fire testing criteria is pretty strict and stringent. It either works or it doesn't. We'll never offer a solution that doesn't work. We do get a lot of inquiries where people are trying to cut corners or trying to save a few pence here or there, without looking at holistic spec and say, well, actually I may be saving in material costs, but time saving and actually correct specification I'm wanting. And I know the example you're talking about and it's there are a lot of people who still try and cut corners.

Darren Evans:

Do you think we'll ever get to a point where the general public will be able to identify a quality building?

Neil Weeks:

I think it's how you manifest that word, quality, because quality and compliance sometimes don't always marry up and compliance to the naked eye or to the trained eye, should I say is quite obvious.

Neil Weeks:

Compliance to the untrained eye can be well, that looks very messy but it may be fit for purpose. And I think the challenge between manufacturers, regulators, builders, contractors and the general public we need to get to a point where everybody understands what quality and compliance actually mean. There are moves afoot for, particularly in the private sector, in private housing, for prospective house buyers to see their house during construction and look at a manual that says how this building was constructed. There has to be an amount of guidance with that that makes it understandable, because seeing a building during construction and seeing a building post-construction is very, very different. But understanding what that building is and what it does and, more importantly, what what it doesn't do it's the education piece on how you can make construction understandable to the public is absolutely paramount, because the understanding of what happened in Grenfell to the public is that construction failed, how it failed. That's what we obviously from the inquiry and the reports that does give indications of where the points towards what could have been improved and gone better.

Darren Evans:

There seems as though if you're in the industry, you can feel successful because you've saved some money, you've not been compliant or you've cut a corner whatever phrase that you want to use but then you don't need to account for anything that you have done.

Darren Evans:

That's substandard, because the general public or the person that's going to be living in that property don't know that things are substandard, don't know that there's a risk, and they could live in that building all of their lives and nothing bad happen. But the problem still is they're underlying, and the reason I'm mentioning this is because I know a couple of people that live in buildings that have got a very similar specification to the Grenfell Tower, but they've got to the point now where they're just taking the chances by living in the building because they've got nowhere else that they can go. The building isn't worth anything, but yet the organizations and the people involved in that decision making process to get the building to where it is now not one of them, at least I'm aware of are going to be accountable for anything that that they've done there.

Neil Weeks:

Yeah, I mean it's. A at a moot point between accountability and quality of build and understanding what one is to reflect on the other and quality of build, on refurbishment particularly, is difficult to achieve. But you have to set off with the goal of making sure that that building is a fit for purpose. B the building has been built to us the high standard and. C the building is is livable in for anyone who inhabits the building. You have to set up from the right point of understanding what that actually means. New builds slightly easier. You have a plan or a blank sheet of paper at the very, very start and you can have much more influence on how that building ends up being the finished article On refurbishment.

Neil Weeks:

On retrofit, it's more difficult, it's not unachievablefit, it's more difficult, it's not unachievable, but it's more difficult. I think the biggest challenge is historic buildings going back 15, 20, 30 years that were compliant to the regulations at the time but aren't compliant to the regulations now. How do you get to the point of that building being fit for purpose? I think some of the learnings from the inquiry give that more credibility now, particularly with the Building Safety Act and understanding that whether the building's refurbishment or new build. The same auspices can be used for both, and I think that's where there's a bit of a grey area. Oh well, it's refurbishment or it's retrofit, it's different. No, it still can be compliant, and understanding that good detailing and good specification on a retrofit are just as important as they are on a new build something that doesn't get spoken about, that often are situations where the specification has been correct and it has actually saved lives.

Darren Evans:

can you give an example of something that you're aware of where the specification was right and because it was right, things worked out really well?

Neil Weeks:

There's lots of working examples of products such as ours passive fire products doing their job during construction, either post-construction, when the buildings are inhabited, or there are lots of examples and we get sent lots of examples by fire brigades who see our products in situ Construction sites in general. So if you have a 200 house site, arson isn't unheard of, particularly during construction. We have a number of examples of where we've had photographic evidence sent to us from buildings being three, four, five hours post fire taking place non-occupied and the products are still doing their job. We get a lot of inquiries from fire brigades saying doesn't everybody use these products? And it's quite heartening, but it's quite challenging at the same time to say well, we like to push the bar with regard to what the products can and should do 30 minute fire rating.

Neil Weeks:

As regards to the regulations, we have products that do four or five hours. So is it the regulations that need to come up or the quality needs to come down? I think it's both need to go up. To be honest, what products is it that you've got If you look at a pair of semi-detached buildings, a pair of houses, for argument's sake stopping the spread of fire from one building to the next. So anything with regard to passive fire, where the spread of fire within a set of regulations means that it's 30, 60, 90 minutes requirement for the fire brigade the people to get out and the fire brigade to get in and do their work.

Neil Weeks:

So the products themselves are made of stone wool which is very fire retardant in what it does. Obviously it's an inhibitor to stop the spread of fire. It isn't a fire stopping or a penetration seal to stop fire ever happening. I don't think anything's ever going to do that. What we need to do is make sure that the buildings are fit for purpose for what they're required, and we've got that a mid-rise and on high rise, high rise barriers with air gaps, with intermescent that will expand into that to to stop the spread of fire, if indeed it happens.

Darren Evans:

So can you just break this down? So just speak to someone that is probably about 16, 17 years old. They don't really understand what these products are, what they're about. Could you just kind of paint a bit of a picture of what exactly they are, where they go, what it looks like?

Neil Weeks:

the crux of it is, if you've got a building it can be an attached building as well you need to put in some measures to stop fire. If perisher thought it ever happened spreading around that building and causing harm to humans, what a dogs come come to that, anybody, anything that's within that building. A standard cavity wall requires a barrier within there. Even if it's fulfilled, there is a requirement to put a barrier in there to stop the spread of fire. Air will get where fire will get. So if you've got some fuel, fire will spread and basically the products themselves stone wool is the raw material, so the base material that's volcanic rock. It will burn somewhere around 12 to 1500 degrees.

Neil Weeks:

Your average house fire is somewhere around about 900 to 1000. So they will stop the fire spreading where you're living in a semi-detached building or a block of apartments, anywhere between yourselves and your neighbors, requires an amount of fire inhibitors to stop the spread of fire. If there's a gap, it requires filling, and that's the key thing about workmanship and barriers that if it's seen that there's a gap between a barrier, fire could spread between there. So it's all about making sure that all of those gaps are filled. We make products that are fit for purpose and we've improved on what the reg may say. It may say you require a barrier for 30 minutes, which ordinarily would be a flat barrier. We've designed products that are shaped u-barrier, t-barrier to be offered up into the required junction and make sure that it stays in place during the construction so that you can be sure that after construction, post occupation, they do do their job.

Darren Evans:

So your products fill gaps? Yeah, and the reason that they fill gaps is because fire spreads through gaps.

Neil Weeks:

Yeah, fire will spread Fire, air, water. It will spread when you don't want it to. You need to fill those gaps and make sure that everything is tightly butted together and check and double check that there are no gaps around there and limit the potential for fire to spread.

Darren Evans:

How did you get into this role? Because when I was at school, I would have not had a clue that an organisation existed to prevent such things in properties.

Neil Weeks:

How did I get into it? So I left school at 16 with no real qualifications, no formal qualifications.

Darren Evans:

So the qualification you had was what? Just being pleasant to teachers and staying out of trouble, yeah, in essence.

Neil Weeks:

I remember a teacher telling me Weeks schooling. You don't agree. I think work will agree with you. I wasn't disruptive by any stretch, but I wasn't an A student. I was a middle-of-the-road student. Age 16, with a couple of qualifications, didn't encourage or didn't give me the opportunity to do A levels or go to university. I had to get a job. More importantly, I needed to contribute to the household. My father was a very, very hard worker, a manual worker. I needed to be there to contribute. I had a bit of a grounding with my father over the years. He he was a dry stone waller. I spent many good times with him dry stone walling when I was very young, into my teens, and that was sort of an exposure to construction.

Neil Weeks:

The yellow pages when I was 16 and looking through it I found a builder's merchant local to where I was in the northeast, rang up and have you any jobs going? I had an interview and started a couple of weeks later on the in the sales office there's a phone, there's a typewriter. When it rings, put the orders onto the typewriter and threw into transport and I'll get calls as okay, I need four lintels. What's a lintel? And literally had to go and find out. But what a grounding was just fantastic way to learn, to find from almost the ground up how a building was built. The owner of the business was very, very much into training kind of where I get the mantra from for our business of training, training, training. And he was of the opinion the more we trained people, the better the knowledge, the better that would be for the customer. And I did the. I think I was one of the first in the uk to do the old nvq in construction and I did that. I qualified probably quicker than most because what what they did was they encouraged me to do this study on the job so they would give me time during working hours to do the study and it reap benefits for them and for me.

Neil Weeks:

And I worked there for nearly nine years and then I moved into territory sales manager for in the air crete industry.

Neil Weeks:

So I spent the next 10 or so years in the masonry industry and then I went to BRE to testing, certification and building test houses for some quite high-profile establishments Prince's Foundation at the time looking at how their building types could be amended, improved and technology.

Neil Weeks:

Added to that, I spent a few years in the insulation industry or in the insulation sector and then went full circle and spent four years in the timber frame sector and all of that knowledge and skills that I learnt on the way stood me in good stead for what was my first senior appointment six years ago when I joined ARC, which was knowledge of the owners which I'd known for a number of years, where they were at their stage in life looking for a figurehead for the business to look, for them to retire and take the business forward. So all of my knowledge from, particularly from the insulation sector and understanding what their own materials did and how they worked on top of the masonry timber frame, all of the application knowledge and what I'd learnt along the way with regard to how to work with manufacturing facilities and regulators and insurers, and a lot of work over the years with builders some of the significant larger builders and smaller builders, understanding what their requirements were, stood me in good stead for that very big learning curve, still learning every day.

Darren Evans:

Don't never afraid to admit every day is a school day it seemed as though when you left school and the route to where you got, where you are at the moment, has been very much people centric selling to people, working with people, organizing with people. Yeah, and it doesn't seem you've not. I've not heard you mention anything um related to anything kind of scientific, so you've not done you know, a kind of a scientist when it comes to the spread of fire, the scientists when it comes to how buildings transform heat from one place to another, cold bridging, anything like that doesn't seem like you've done anything on the building when it comes to how buildings transform heat from one place to another, cold bridging, anything like that.

Neil Weeks:

It doesn't seem like you've done anything on the building physics side of things. Yes and no, have I?

Darren Evans:

done formal qualifications?

Neil Weeks:

No, do I understand building physics? Very much so, and understanding thermal capacity and U-values, and all of this from a very early age. To be honest, the the early u-value calculators. I worked with some of the original companies that invented those up in the northeast polar architects, understanding that building physics, and when I first started work at, the average u-value of a wall was sort of 0.6 to where we are now. And looking at products that I think there was, a unique product came out in the early 90s a block with a piece of insulation stuck to it and there were various companies that were focusing on what the U-Values were at the time. We're obviously 0.1, 0.12 to where we are now. And so, having seen that right through, when you talk to people now regarding the HEM obviously, or the replacement for SAP, I understand where SAP was 20 years ago. To understand where HEM is now how we adopt and adapt HEM.

Neil Weeks:

the capabilities of the products from both a fire safety perspective and a thermal performance perspective is intrinsic. Do I scientifically understand every devil in the detail? No, do I work with a lot of good people who do that?

Darren Evans:

Yes, so I think, just to pick up on an acronym, that you used HEM, so HEM some people may know it as, but it's the home energy model which, as as you're saying, is the soon-to-be replacement for the standard assessment procedure, which is, which is SAP.

Darren Evans:

yeah so, um, I think the, but what you spoke about there just really confirmed the thought that I had, which is just because you don't go to university and have that formal training doesn't mean to say that you don't understand it really really well yeah doesn't mean that you can't understand it really really well and that you can't add massive value in that section, in that area, because the thing that you're speaking about here again I'm just speaking specifically to our younger audience is that at school sometimes it can feel like you're not intelligent enough or you're not academic enough to be able to go down a certain road that may interest you yeah but I think, from listening to your experience, that that clearly is not true I think that's not the case as you go through your career.

Neil Weeks:

It's it's picking up different sets of learning, and one of my mentors always said to me you would take the jobs that nobody wanted. I used to turn that around and say no, I took the jobs that I could learn more. I could have stood and gone through a very, very good standard sales career in a similar role right from when I started at 16 to where I'm at now, which for some people is really successful and really rewarding. I at times turned left and sort of said what more can I learn here? And whilst I haven't learned from books between the ages of 18 to 21, and I wouldn't decry anybody going to university if they get the opportunity you can learn a heck of a lot on the job. And I think that's what I've endeavavored to do and try and make sure that anything, any job that I did, what kind of learn, how could I increase my knowledge and where would that knowledge take me? And where would that knowledge take what I was? Here they're trying to promote, trying to use, trying to prove.

Neil Weeks:

The only limitation is yourself anything that that I've learned throughout my career. I've put the good use, my advice to anybody starting out at 16 now, if they don't have the opportunity to go to university, get into construction. It is a fabulous career. It's enjoyable, it's challenging. It's everything that you'd want but probably don't want to ask. It's hard work. There's ups and downs, obviously, as we go through. I'm 35 years in now. I know nothing else and talk to a lot of my friends who are in completely different sectors, from farming to accountancy to retail, and they're almost in awe of all the different things that I've done, whilst they've done the same thing throughout their career. I'm in awe of them because they're successful in what they do, so we're very respectful of each other and I think I'm very respectful and very guarded and very I always defend construction to the hilt because we take brown pieces of land and we build buildings on there that stay for a number of years.

Darren Evans:

The challenge is doing it right and doing it to the right quality when you look back at your younger self, what attributes do you see that lead you to the point now where you can lead large numbers of people?

Neil Weeks:

I think a lot of it comes back to, to the upbringing that I had and and seeing my father who wasn't a massively well-educated man, but he was was a hard worker and he was. He led the family. I've always tried to build on what I saw from what I was a fantastic leader. He had some massive challenges over his life and it didn't let that affect him. He he drove the family forward. He made sure that we all know what.

Neil Weeks:

Get up, work hard, make sure that you do what's asked of you and those are all similar traits of any leader that basically lead by example, make sure that people understand what's required, look at your performance and the business's performance and always strive to be the best you can possibly be, whilst keeping the integrity part of it. And I think from a very early age it was all about making sure that you did the right thing and be respectful of everybody around you, and I have met people over the years where you go I wouldn't do it that way and you learn a lot from people doing the wrong things, certainly how not to repeat certain elements, but I've learned a hell of a lot from people to do the right things, and most of that is pretty self-explanatory, but you've just got to be mindful of how to put that into action.

Darren Evans:

Apart from your father. You've mentioned him a few times in terms of the inspiration that he's been to you, but what other people have inspired you?

Neil Weeks:

I've had various mentors in my working life. I'm pretty inquisitive. I like to know how things work. I like to know how people work. So I've learned a lot from studying various people and people I've never met before. But understanding what makes them tick particularly people who are successful, whatever that success actually means, be it from a sporting environment or a business environment and understanding what makes them tick. It's the old adage that the harder you practice, the luckier you get, and I think that's the same whether you're a sportsman, whether you're a business person, whether you're, using my dad's example, a dry stone waller. Um, I don't think there's any sort of ceiling on what you can achieve if you put your mind to it. How successful you are. Success is really down to what you feel that looks like, but don't underestimate how good you can be, I suppose.

Darren Evans:

I like that. I'm curious now just to kind of talk about fire, go back to the topic of fire a little bit more and get your view on where you feel the industry is moving in relation to fire, where you've and and where that is compared to where it should go. So where it's going and actually is that where it should go I split.

Neil Weeks:

I split it into two parts. So in the low-rise sector, I think think the industry is in a very, very good place. I think low-rise developers, low-rise builders, be that small or large, have a good handle on what's required.

Darren Evans:

So just define low-rise, just for those people that don't understand.

Neil Weeks:

Anything two and a half storeys and below. I think that the general builders, as such house builders, largely developers have got a very, very good handle on what's required. It's more straightforward because they're doing repeatable developments, be that 100 units, 200 units, the mixed tenure between semi-detached and detached around about 50-50 on a standard site. It's very, very straightforward to make sure that everything is compliant and compliance is viewed pretty often by both inspection and quality reviews that a lot of the developers pay independently for. So I think that's in a very, very good place. High-rise is a bit more of a challenge. Every project is different the Building Safety Bill and the Building Safety Act trying to get a standard that works right across the board. Trying to get enough experts to support that standard is a challenge.

Neil Weeks:

For every, I think, on average, there are 60 high-rise buildings, which is something of 18 metres and above completed in the UK every year. As I understand it, currently there are a number in the various gates within the Building Safety Act that aren't being developed due to various stages of specification not being fit for purpose or challenges within those buildings or availability of experts to scrutinise those buildings, pre-construction or retrofit. Both have the same challenge. So I think resource is a big challenge in the high-rise sector. I think there is. From a regulatory perspective, I think the regulations are where they should be for high-rise and for low-rise. I think it's more about quality installation, making sure that everything is fit for purpose, whatever the size of building. So we could be better. The bar could be higher for manufacturers. Third-party accreditation for manufacturing still isn't mandatory, so in what way would that look like? Manufacturing still isn't mandatory, so in what way? What would that look like In essence, having a third party accredited product?

Neil Weeks:

Ie not marking your own homework, having a fire test, that's a given, but having an independent accreditation, that the quality of every product that you make is independently tested and checked, is absolutely paramount. Ourselves we've had it for a number of years, since pre-Grenfell. Some of our competitors do have it, which is great. Some more have recently come and joined that list. It needs to be up to the standard. The bar needs to go up from a manufacturing perspective when the products are installed. If all of the products meet the same criteria and standard, the installer's got a far better chance of that being the correct installation Installation. Again, we could really really do with a third-party accreditation scheme for installers. There are some elements of passive fire where there are accreditation schemes. Fire barriers currently isn't one of them. We would massively support that. Again, it's not something that we can fully push ourselves because it would be an ARC accredited scheme, which reality is it needs to be an industry accredited scheme so it works for all products from all manufacturers.

Darren Evans:

And that doesn't exist at the moment. Not at the moment. No, that's interesting, isn't it, that an organisation like the BRE have not picked that up.

Neil Weeks:

I don't think it's within their scope. I think that having independent accreditation for installation is really. You look at the PWF, the British Woodworking Federation. There's an accredited scheme for safe installation of fire doors something of that ilk for the safe installation of massive fire barriers. All of the developers have subcontracted squads of bricklayers, joiners, carpenters, roofers, who all have an amount of knowledge, but are they accredited to a scheme? Not currently. Some of them are very, very good at what they do, but we need to have a consistent quality.

Darren Evans:

I'm interested to just touch on a couple of points, and that is speaking to people that are at the beginning of their career. Just come out of university. They've got an ambition to work their way up in an organization you made reference to. Sometimes you outgrow a company and sometimes a company outgrows you. How can they know the best route to take so that they can go from where they are at the moment, which is at the bottom of the rung, just come out of university, to where they want to be, which is having a significant role within an organization? That means that they're doing something of value and also that they're getting you know enough in their back pocket to have a smile on their face. Yeah, how will they know the best route to take?

Neil Weeks:

I think the first point to make is that I don't see anybody that's just graduated our university has been on the bottom room. I think they've already achieved a hell of a lot in that three, four year period, or five year period in some cases now, and I think, understanding what makes them tick so understanding themselves, understanding asking the question what is it that makes me tick?

Neil Weeks:

Yeah, what is it that makes me tick? What do I bring? How can I influence? Because they can influence from a very early stage and, to be brutally frank about it, it's understanding who will listen. And if you get a good employer that will listen to everybody's opinion, whether they're very inexperienced in working life or very experienced, it's absolutely paramount. And, I think, understanding where they're, what they enjoy, if there's an element of of their work that they enjoy. Do they enjoy selling? Do they enjoy drawing? Do they enjoy technical elements? What do they actually enjoy and focus on and show how good they are at what they do and make sure that everybody's aware of what their, where, their skill set is, without being arrogant about it.

Neil Weeks:

Telling people what you do and telling people what you're good at, and telling people what you can contribute. It's, unless you tell people, people won't know. And I think, having having had directors and managers over the years who don't do much listening, finding people that do listen is a black art and, like I say that the from when you join a business, try and understand as much as you can about the people that that can influence you. Find a mentor, find people that believe in you. I think it's absolutely key and what? Let people understand what you bring to the table and don't let experience or lack of experience be a barrier. I still used to this day. Oh well I'm, I'm just an uneducated northern lad. And and it winds people up because whilst I might be uneducated early in my life, having got my CIOB in later life, as a validation of my experience, having a qualification when I was 18 would have served me in good stead. Or having a qualification when I was 21 would have got my career off probably to a more accelerated start.

Neil Weeks:

And I think the number of people that go through university and straight on to a master's and possibly to a doctorate fabulous, straight on to a master's and possibly to a doctorate. Fabulous because they're bringing an awful lot of skills that a lot of the particularly a lot of businesses such as ours, didn't have. We've brought in two graduates fabulous. They bring an awful lot to the party. So their inexperience is actually a positive because what they bring with regard to their skill set can take the business forward. How the business harnesses what those skills are. That is the black art, really, of trying to find the best fit between the person doing the role and where they can go within that business, finding businesses with good succession plans. So we're not afraid to employ whatever the age of the person or the experience of the person to get the best out of them. How do you?

Darren Evans:

help the mental well-being of your team.

Neil Weeks:

A lot of questions. How are you, how is the family, understanding what people's challenges are outside of work?

Darren Evans:

I mean that question there how are you? Or maybe a slight variation of that question is are you okay? Is a common phrase that's actually quite hollow. You don't actually mean it, but it sounds like what you're saying is I'm genuinely asking the question how are you?

Neil Weeks:

As opposed to a greeting which is maybe hello we our culture, we, we encourage regular one-to-ones, and the first question all of that is give me a one to ten of how you're feeling. Where are you? What support do you need?

Neil Weeks:

that's from a personal perspective never, mind work, because if the person is supported outside of work and we can do anything to support that person outside of work, work is straightforward making sure that the reduction in stress stress people don't provide good results both for themselves and for businesses. So making sure people's well-being is looked after absolutely paramount, and that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Well-being it can be what, what challenges? Uh, personally, someone's got going. They may have a family member that has challenges, so it's not directly affecting their own health, but obviously their own family issues may be actually affecting them and how they're dealing with that. You can always give someone help and I think you get the respect back from the help that you give people in spades of support of what the business needs. But it's probably paramount at the forefront of everything that we need to try and do is look after people's well-being.

Darren Evans:

So when you ask people those questions and when there's a genuine concern about how someone actually is, how often are people taken back by that and almost don't know how to take that or how to deal with that, because it seems less common that organizations are interested genuinely in the people that work to be honest, as people have joined us over the years and we have occupational health support, we have helplines within our EHP program.

Neil Weeks:

So making sure that people if they won't have the availability to speak to someone not myself or a colleague, but someone independent on a subject matter, it does take people aback when you give the amount of information and the amount of support that we do, but once they've spent a bit of time with the business they understand what's available. And these are small investments for the business. They are small numbers of £1,000 to cover the whole business. But the benefit to the person, particularly the occupational health where someone's either got a physical problem or potentially a mental problem the support there is. It reaps benefits. We've proved we get people back to work quicker if they have challenges and give them support. It's not something that's just lip service. We have a lot of independent support, which is helpful. We have a considerable amount of people that have lots and lots of different challenges Anything you can think of. But how we can help them in their lives reaps benefits for us as a business.

Darren Evans:

How does that work for you? You mentioned that being a CEO can be lonely. You've mentioned that you have got mentors, but I'm just wondering in all of this, in the care that you give to members of your team, who is it that cares for?

Neil Weeks:

you, my wife, my family, my wife Karen's fantastic support to me, children the same. I've used the same values that my father instilled in me. I have business coaches that I use, that have become friends, that people's opinion that I respect but also can talk on a number of subjects. So it's not just about how can we make the business better, it's also how can we make Neil better Not that he's bad, but how can we make everything more straightforward. Sounding board for information, both personally and professionally and that in itself is is talking about these subjects is cathartic and helps you peers, a number of peers at a similar level using a sounding board, not necessarily mentors, but peers within the construction industry that that have the same challenges or similar challenges. Good example during COVID, where, for manufacturing facilities, the guidance was pretty slim of how you did what you did. The guidance for us as individuals in the public domain was two metres. You can only have so many people in this area. We took the guidance myself and half a dozen colleagues across industry and wrote some manufacturing facility guidance, specifically building materials manufacturing guidance. A lot of the developers didn't see COVID as anything other than another health and safety challenge and what we know is the industry. Construction industry particularly does well with health and safety. A lot of the contractors and the developers have a strong health and safety culture and COVID was another challenge in that regime. Safety A lot of the contractors and the developers have a strong health and safety culture and COVID was another challenge in that regime.

Neil Weeks:

Single walkways things that at the time were seen as the right thing to do for the situation. A lot of the time we've actually ended up with more efficient ways of working. Because of that, buildings having one trade working on one floor and then out and the next trade coming in have proved more efficient. Obviously, the market slowed slightly, but as the market picks back up, the same auspices are still there. I'm similar for manufacturing. That how we did things during Covid times. Some of the things have stuck. One of the key things that we looked at was breaks in the factory, so ordinarily we'd have a break every two hours for everyone, whereas now it's team breaks. So structuring so the facility keeps moving, less people in the environment, so it's quicker for people to have a break. That was an advocate of covid, so not a lot for to be thankful for with covid, but there are some learnings with that how was that period for you personally during covid leader of an organization?

Neil Weeks:

loads of uncertainty, no one ever been there before there, no manual 23rd of March 2020, when the Prime Minister of the time banged the table. The next few hours were okay. What on earth do we do now? Possibly more profanity than that, but it was some dark times because there was a lot of unknown and for a probably three, four week period, it was by the seat of your pants how do you get through this? What we didn't know at the time whether it was a week, month, year, two years, ever and it was just and working with what information you had in front of you for the next few hours. We did the best for our staff and made sure that we were doing everything safely and giving out the advice, Car sharing, for example. We'd actively encouraged that pre-COVID. We actively discouraged it during COVID.

Neil Weeks:

We had a period where, as a business, we didn't know what was going to happen, as in was the business going to survive? Yeah, we're a very, very strong financial footing, but at that time nobody knew anything of how things were going to work. What we did have over a period of five or six weeks was the fact that all of our supply chain kept paying and we basically paid our supply chain, we paid our suppliers, and that period of probably five or six weeks wasn't anywhere near as bad as what we thought it would be. It was a massive learning, but the reality was that by doing the things right, we actually avoided having any cases in our factory for probably 18 months. We were at one period we were in the eye of the storm with regard to Covid cases in the country, but we didn't have a war in the business. And then there was a period where we had more cases, and probably halfway through Covid was probably our worst point where we had more cases. We never had a severe case. We did have cases.

Neil Weeks:

Yeah, we as a business, we grew. I don't mean monetary terms, terms, I just mean as you become closer to the people that are with you in the trenches, if you like, on a daily basis. Most of it was by teams, due, obviously, the nature of COVID. Even if you're in the same building, you had the right thing to do to protect each other and come out of the other side of it in a better place. It's probably been more challenging post COVID, with the market conditions and challenges since then. It's probably been more challenging post covered, with the market conditions and challenges since then. It's the last sort of two or three months of 2021 where the market was sort of focusing up over what was quite strange. When you looked at november, december 2021, the uptick in sales was quite strange. Since it's tailed off slightly, it was uh. When you talk to people in probably 20 or 30 years, they won't believe what we all had to do.

Darren Evans:

It does sound bizarre, doesn't it, when you break it all down, what everyone did and what it looked like, and the streets and all the rest of it.

Neil Weeks:

It's something off of a film Very, very unique situation that I hope we never, ever have to go through again. Objectively, I think if the country was put under the challenge that we were back, then we might react in a slightly different way. Because of it yeah, because you've got experience.

Darren Evans:

Well, Neil, I think we're in a position now to go to the demolition zone. We are now in the demolition zone and you have created this structure Three tiers to it, it appears to me but it's kind of flat, chunky and symmetrical For the people that are listening to it. You're just gonna have to watch it on youtube, because I cannot describe this. But it's good, it's a masterpiece. It's a bit like me.

Neil Weeks:

Masterpiece, no the bit you said first tiered or chunky, yeah. So what does it represent? The for me, or the myth to bust, is that you don't need a leadership title to be a leader. You can start leading today from any role, at any level. It isn't about your position, it's about your impact, and I found over the years, even before I was in senior positions, that being a leader can be from any level. So I thoroughly support that and impress that on on both my colleagues around me and anyone that'll listen.

Darren Evans:

Basically, you know, I don't think that there's ever been a time in the history of the world where you can decide to be a leader and not only can you gather a following that are just within your local area geographically, but it can be a global following. I totally see what you're saying and totally agree with that is that this is a wonderful time to be alive and to lead people.

Neil Weeks:

We live in a soundbite society. How you make your soundbite heard is absolutely key. Your soundbite heard is absolutely key and making sure that you're using all of those leadership traits. You're leading by example. You're effective communication in however format that comes across, be it electronic communication, written format, it's absolutely paramount and you do not need to be in a senior position in any business to be a leader.

Darren Evans:

I think that we're in a position that you can destroy this myth. So, neilil, over to you, beautiful gentle. But firm swipe with the right hand comes all crashing down.

Darren Evans:

That has been said of me before just as we're talking about leadership, I'm wondering. I mean, you've spoken about your dad and it sounds as though to me he has been an inspirational leader to you. Who is out there that may be commonly known, that you would look up to as a leader and that you say I try to emulate elements of their leadership style and why I don't foresee one person in the public eye.

Neil Weeks:

I take small sound bites for want of a better word from lots of people some people who are no longer here, such as my father, some people who are in the public eye and no longer here, and people that I've studied. I take little traits from from each person. I wouldn't say there's one. Yeah. I wouldn't say there's one do you take the whole thing.

Darren Evans:

So who is there that you would take one soundbite from, and what would that soundbite be? It doesn't even need to be necessarily someone in the construction industry or someone that's uber uber famous. It may be someone in the sporting world. It can literally be just anyone that you've identified. As you know, I like this element, or this soundbite, as you've put it, of their leadership style.

Neil Weeks:

So Bobby Robson he was an exemplar of leading by example and he did things the right way, particularly when he was under a lot of challenge mid-80s, early 90s, juniors, 10 years England manager. He received an awful lot of challenge and he handled it very humbly and he took everything on board and responded to the the challenge by leading by example. I think that that was a good example, not so sold on some of the more recent people in that ilk I think unfortunately they're believing their own hype comes to the fore more, whereas so bobby was pretty genuine and I think that came across in how he was and I met him on a couple of occasions and he was just as he was on the screen as humble a person and interesting. Genuinely. That's probably the best example.

Darren Evans:

One of the things I've loved about listening to you is your humility in the way that you lead and I really do like that and I'm really grateful for your time and you coming on to the podcast and I'm sure and confident that people are going to pick that up tribute and I think that the world needs more humble leaders and for me, neil, you have been that, so I'm really grateful that you've been able to come on the show today. Yeah, thanks for having me. Good thanks for watching to the end. Please remember to to like to share and to subscribe Also. I think you'll really like this one.