Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 60 Inside the Timber Roadmap: How the UK Plans to Build Better, Faster and Greener
In this episode of the Thrive in Construction podcast, Darren is joined by Andrew Carpenter to explore how timber construction can play a vital role in helping the UK achieve its Net Zero targets by 2050. Andrew is Secretary for the UK Government’s Timber in Construction Roadmap Implementation Programme and Chief Executive of the Structural Timber Association.
He shares expert insights into why the construction industry must rethink its reliance on carbon-heavy materials like concrete and steel and shift towards more sustainable alternatives such as timber. He breaks down the environmental, economic and practical benefits of timber frame construction, from faster build times and reduced emissions to improved energy performance and solutions to skills shortages in the industry.
The conversation also delves into the government's housing targets, the challenges of supply and planning, and how new regulations could shape the future of construction. Andrew highlights the cultural shift needed in England to embrace timber as a mainstream material and outlines the critical role of collaboration, innovation and leadership in driving change across the sector.
If you're interested in sustainable construction, modern methods of building or the future of housing in the UK, this episode offers a compelling look at how timber can support growth, innovation and climate goals.
Links:
Andrew's LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/andrew-carpenter-a017a89
Structural Timber Association: https://www.structuraltimber.co.uk/
Darren: darrenevans.komi.io
I'm very lucky. At the moment I've been chosen by the government to be secretariat for their Timber and Construction Roadmap Implementation Programme, which is about increasing the amount of timber in construction, because if the UK is going to meet its net zero targets by 2050, we have to interrogate how we build, because construction depending on who you ask, it's something between 25% and 40% of all emissions come from construction. So inevitably, if we're going to meet the 2050 targets, we to interrogate how we build, and concrete and steel are two of the biggest emitters of carbon during their manufacture, so inevitably we've got to use more timber.
Speaker 2:so that's why the government have asked me to be secretariat for this, this roadmap, which we'll be rolling out for the next few years pick your brains really on what you would say the top three attributes would need to be for someone that's a chief exec or that vision setter of an organisation. So if I'm a young person at school and I'm thinking, okay, I've got my GCSEs, I'm able to get my A levels, I understand qualification wise, but I'm just wondering what, in terms of values or attributes that you would say would be your top three that someone would need to have in order to lead an organization okay, I think the obvious one is communication and ability to communicate the vision, the vision, the values, the mission statement of whatever organization you're leading and then taking that right through internally and externally and living by that.
Speaker 1:So communication, I put number one. The other two might surprise you. The second one I would suggest is empathy and if I'm honest, that's something I learned, probably quite late in life, but actually to be able to empathize with the needs of your staff, your stakeholders, the country as a whole. So you need to have empathy. I think it's a myth that you are this dictator and you just plough on through. I think it's much better if you can empathise. And the other one, probably similarly, I learned late, but it's humility. I think you need to be humble in terms of you're in a privileged position. You need to understand it's a privilege and I think you need to be respectful of that. I think the worst sort of leaders are those that that sort of dictate. So I would say communication, humility and empathy, that would be my three.
Speaker 2:love that good, good, and these are the things that generally are not spoken of or taught with much emphasis at school. Definitely, humility, maybe not so much empathy. Communication, you could argue because you could say okay, well, that's english literature.
Speaker 1:You could say that you can but that's, that's a very basic form of communication. I'm I'm really more talking about the passion, the emotion, the energy of the communication getting out there, getting you to buy into what I'm saying, you know, you to buy into the vision and values that I'm I'm trying to uh put across. So I think it's, I think it's more than obviously you need the basics, but I think it's more than just english language personally, definitely and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Speaker 2:Some people may use the phrase storytelling, you know, to include in that communication. So communication as a topic is huge and, uh, my experience has been it's something that you just keep on improving, just keep on working on.
Speaker 1:I've signed off two press releases on the train coming up here from the West Country to London. That's communication, but that's a very specific part of communication. It's not that alone. It's about winning hearts and minds, isn't it? It's about getting people to come on board with your mission and the ability to get people to buy into that. So I hope I can do that. I hope I have that skill, both in terms of staff but, more importantly, I think, the wider uk construction industry, government stakeholders, you know, if I can get them to embrace what we're trying to achieve, we're successful. More importantly, the planet succeeds.
Speaker 2:Love it let's now talk about your involvement with the government and also how you are helping to push us towards this net zero future of 2050. One of the things I'm interested in doing is understanding that you think would surprise most people in the industry.
Speaker 1:Okay, happy to answer.
Speaker 1:I think probably I ought to just give a little bit of a history as to why we get to where we are today.
Speaker 1:If you go back to November 2021, you'll remember, the UK hosted COP26 in Glasgow.
Speaker 1:Now, the Conservative government at the time was taking quite a lot of stick, but I have to say, in the government roadmap on timber they played a blinder because the next month, in December, they created a working group to increase the amount of timber in construction and for two years we met as a plethora of people from across the sector all the supply chain, clients, government bodies, academia and so on and we actually launched a roadmap in December 2023. We then worked behind the scenes to get an implementation programme ready and that launched in May of 2024. Unfortunately, it came to an abrupt halt the next month because Rishi Sunak called an election, and you know that when an election's called, you know there's something called purdah and everything of any governmental nature, whether that be national, regional or local, has to stop. We've got a new flavour government in the Labour Party and obviously, anything the Conservatives had done they needed to take a look, investigate, interrogate and at the moment, we're just waiting on them to endorse the roadmap so that we can go forward again.
Speaker 2:So on that point there, just to jump in. Have you found that process of another uh government wanting and I'm putting probably words in your mouth, or maybe words in their mouth, but wanting to show differentiation, wanting to show their mark or make their mark on things? Have you found them coming in and delving in? Have you found that to be useful, unhelpful or really just is what?
Speaker 1:I'd say I'd say two things. The first thing, the time it's taken. I found frustrating, and I know a lot of my colleagues have found it frustrating as well. But in terms of what the current Labour government is trying to achieve, actually I've found it positive Because the first time I met Minister Mary Cray, who's the DEFRA minister responsible for the roadmap, the first thing she said is that she wanted to accelerate the roadmap.
Speaker 1:She wanted make it bigger, better, faster and all those things, and so that was that was positive, and so we've looked behind the scenes ready for the endorsement coming up anytime.
Speaker 1:Now we hope to be ready to, to be able to do that, so that that's been positive. We've also been linking it with during the time we've had, we've been linking it to the bigger overall government approach agenda of growth and of building 1.5 million homes in the lifetime of the parliament. So we've linked the roadmap understanding the bigger agenda and we've linked it in which I think going forward is going to help everybody because if we succeed we help the Labour government deliver their main priorities. So frustration in the time it's taken, but understanding why it's taken that time, particularly as I have about six uh government departments reporting through this roadmap. So it's not just defra who lead it. We've also got department for business and trade, des nez, which is the net zero mhclg that are responsible for the houses and the building regulations. Department of Education, for schools. We've got the Forestry Commission, health and Safety Executive. There's a plethora of government departments and you have to understand that the government need to go through due diligence in every one of those departments before they'll buy in and sign up.
Speaker 1:So I get it, albeit it's been frustrating.
Speaker 2:I see that and so this you mentioned about the uh, the government's target currently in the uk, which is 1.5 million homes built in a four-year period. Effectively. I was on site just the other day speaking to a plumber and in their opinion that ambition is is bonkers, because they're like we've not got anywhere near enough trade, let alone anything else that that's going on. And we can have conversations about building on Greenfield and looking at the bureaucracy that's around planning, but he's like in my world there is not enough tradespeople and there's not enough young people coming into the industry. So the government can say whatever they want, but I don't see how it's going to happen.
Speaker 1:You make a very valid point. All I would say to you is I think they're showing strong leadership and they continuously say we're going to get to 1.5 million homes in the lifetime of the Parliament. I think most people in the industry, if you ask them honestly, don't think we've got a cat in hell's chance of getting there. However, we're down here at the minute. If we can get to here rather than here happy days. So that leadership is important and it's particularly important for my members, for example. So if we are going to try and increase the amount of timber in construction, it's my members that are going to have to deliver it, because I've got 120 timber frame manufacturers up and down the UK. They're going to need to invest in their business to deliver this growth and they need that leadership. If they're going to invest their own hard-earned money, they need that leadership and that's why I'm impressed with what the Labour government is doing at the moment. And I'll give you a specific example.
Speaker 1:Yesterday in my hometown of Froome, yesterday evening I was having a look around at a developer's idea for 300 plus houses on the outskirts of the town, and a good friend of mine is a councillor with Somerset Council on the planning committee and they were just about to vote, not on this particular job, but on another job.
Speaker 1:They were just about to have a planning meeting and the projects have been taken away from them by Angela Rayner and is now being considered in the centre. So what central government is doing is they're trying to strip away a lot of the barriers that the planning brings. They want to get these projects on site quickly. Now we can have another argument about whether that's right that you take away the planning decisions from the local area and take it centrally. That's a whole new ballpark. What I am saying is I'm impressed with the direction of travel of the Labour Party at the moment, or the Labour government at the moment. They are practising what they preach and they are saying we want to build 1.5 million homes and we're going to remove the barriers and they're doing it. But if we don't get to 1.5, we get to 1.2, happy days, happy days.
Speaker 2:I do like that principle of having a target, having a target which stretches really significant, and keeping that because that helps you similar to what you're saying do far more than you would have done if you would have had a quote-unquote, realistic target, because that just keeps yeah, it keeps the status quo. Innovation does it.
Speaker 1:You know my, my members are being asked to innovate. How can you make it faster? How can you add more in the factory so that something called pre-manufactured value increases, so that when you bring your panels to site, there's more that's already done? You just have to assemble them. That's the sort of pressure that's being put on my members by organizations like homes england, who, as you probably know, are responsible for funding for a lot of the social housing, but they're putting these, these restrictions or restraints or requirements onto my members. But it's it's driving innovation and that's a good thing. That's a good thing.
Speaker 2:So talk to me about structured timber. Why is it that there is such a focus or you believe that there should be a focus on timber? You've mentioned about CO2 emissions and getting to net zero, but why is timber such an important element of hitting that target?
Speaker 1:Timber is a natural product. If we were to build using natural products, a lot of the carbon that is created through manufacture of concrete and steel and so on would disappear. In fact, it sequestrates carbon. If the 300,000 homes per year the government want to build was in timber frame, we would save, or we would store rather about 6 million tonnes of carbon. So that's the sort of figure that we're talking about.
Speaker 1:As I mentioned earlier, depending on who you ask, the amount of carbon that is in the ether anywhere between 25 and 40% is the responsibility of the construction industry. So we have a responsibility to look at what we do, and certain clients now are making requests of their supply chain to look at timber as an alternative. Let me give you a good example. The major house builders so Barrett's, taylor Wimpey, persimmon, bellway, vistri, I could go on they're now either buying up timber frame factories or they're building their own, so that they've all got timber frame facilities within their supply chain. About 50% of all the homes that are built in the uk now are built by people who've got a timber frame facility within their supply chain. I'm not saying 50 at timber frame, they're not, but 50 of all the homes that are built are built by companies that have got that facility in their supply chain and they're all moving in that direction, and one of the reasons they're doing it is the is what you mentioned earlier about skills shortages, because if you can move it into the factory, you can do more in the factory. You need less people on site, it's cleaner, it's safer, it's more sustainable.
Speaker 1:Young people probably don't want to be working on wet and windy building sites anymore, you know, I mean you know. So there's a direction of travel. And the other thing is purpose, which I mentioned. I think people nowadays are looking for purpose and if you know you're going into a career that is going to help the planet as well as pay your mortgage, I think that gives a young person that purpose that they're looking for. That perhaps when I was entering the industry, I didn't even know existed.
Speaker 2:If the truth be known, I'm interested to get your thoughts, though, on the end of life though, when it comes to a property that has been built in timber. So if you look at steel as an example, you can easily use steel for 100 plus years after it was first manufactured. Is that the same with modern timber and the way that we treat and manage? I know that it was back in Victorian and medieval times, clearly, because you, you know, you still have those buildings that are built with the original timbers. But I'm wondering, under the modern ways that we manufacture our properties, is that going to be possible for that element or that material to be used in 100 plus years time?
Speaker 1:Okay, it's a good question and certainly circularity is a big question that everyone's asking at the moment and I would suggest that, like from here on, that circularity question is being acknowledged and designed in to anything that's happening now. So what we're looking at really I think understanding your question is not the distant past, but it's the last I don't know, 60 years or something like that is probably what you're talking about. So the reuse of all materials, not just timber, is something that's uppermost in people's minds at the moment. It's a myth to think that most timber goes to landfill. It doesn't.
Speaker 1:So the way timber is reused can be reused, like you've suggested, can be done with steel. A lot of it goes to biomass, to be honest, which is not the best use, but that's quite a big proportion at the moment. So what I would say to you is that it's very much a huge agenda item at the moment and it is now being built into the design of new buildings going forward and it's a consideration for what's happened in the last I don't know 50, 60 years. I mean your point about steel again is, theoretically it can be used, but actually when you see what comes off, a site may not be as easy as that, and I think we have to be honest with ourselves, because this circularity question has only really been in the vocabulary for the last. What decade maybe, If that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, you know, serious consideration. Circularity has really been only spoken about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so, if I'm honest with you, I think we're all coming to terms with it. Certainly, within the government roadmap that I talked to you about earlier, we've got seven working groups. One is around carbon, and certainly that circularity topic is front and center of what what we're doing and we're looking to come through with evidence and recommendations and so on, because the idea of the roadmap is to look at the barriers and that's one of them and to come up with solutions of how we overcome them.
Speaker 2:Another thing that I've heard over the years it's been an objection to using timber has been the concern about fire, especially when you start to go more than two floors and you start to get into mid-rise. Say to that where is? Where is the risk? Is there a risk? How?
Speaker 1:do you answer that question? I can say several. When I came into this role 14 years ago, certainly, the fire agenda was, was front and center, and it's something that I had to, if you like, hit head on with with, uh, my priorities. In those days, anyone that wanted to talk about fire was seen as the enemy, and I changed that pretty quickly and I said no, we have to approach these people, understand what their issues are and turn from being the problem into the solution, and in fact, that's where we are now. I'm not suggesting it's me, by the way, but that was the change of approach.
Speaker 1:So we've now got a set of fire guidance that we can offer and as long as projects are properly designed and properly constructed, then timber frame is no more dangerous than any other material. You know, fires happen in all sorts of buildings. Grenfell, for example, wasn't a timber frame building. In fact, I understand that the only thing that performed well was the fire doors, which are timber. So you know, I think we need to be careful about fire and timber in the same breath, although I understand that we were all brought up with the story of the three little pigs, so I get it because it's the culture. But, as I say, we've got guidance now which, as long as it's used properly, you can say that it's very safe.
Speaker 1:In terms of height, I think only two storey is not quite right. You can build up to four storeys, up to 11 metres and people do without a problem no problem with insurance etc. Etc. Anything between 11 and 18 meters. Then you're probably having to look to get a fire engineer to do a risk assessment and so on. It's above 18 meters where the main issues are at the moment and that's since, since grenfell it is uk related because in europe there are clt buildings going up that are 12, 13 stories. In fact we've got 10 storystorey CLT buildings in London. So it has happened historically. But I understand the nervousness, I understand that if you're a client or a housing association, you know and Grenfell's happened that you don't want that to happen again. So I get it. But we're working with these people to find again solutions so that once again we can get that ability to build 11 to 18 and then 18, 18 and over.
Speaker 2:But we're very well aware of the um, the perception I can assure you would you do you envisage a world where, or a country in the uk where 90 plus percent of the new buildings that are going up timber structures?
Speaker 1:well, in scotland 90 of the homes are built in the frame. So just across the border it's happening. In england we're down at about 10, 11, 12 percent and that's where we see the biggest growth. Opportunity is to increase the amount of timber in construction. Is the two up, two down housing that bellway and barrett's and taylor wimpy produce and, as I say, that that's already happening in terms of what we're seeing they're doing as businesses. So that's that's where we see the opportunity is. But yes, there is a. There is an opportunity to. You know, really take a good hard, look at the way we we build upwards in in the conurbations and consider what's suitable for mass timber and what about the stocks?
Speaker 2:where are these? Where are the? Where's the timber coming from? Are we have we got enough trees in this country to grow them?
Speaker 1:and so that's globally that's another interesting point and again, one of the seven working groups within the roadmap is to do with supply and two questions. The first one is about have you got enough trees period? And then secondly is can we get more homegrown timber? So the short answer is at the moment, most of the timber, the raw material, comes from Sweden, scandinavia, germany, austria, but mostly Sweden, and the word on the street is you know, we can up the ante quite considerably without a problem. At the moment, my members are about 60% capacity. We think we can up that obviously to 100%, which would allow us to deliver about a third of the homes that the government needs per annum, and at the moment the vast majority of that timber comes from Sweden.
Speaker 1:Now, obviously, if you're looking at the sustainability argument, you would want more of that to be homegrown. At the moment it's a fraction, but we are working with the within the roadmap, with the, the forestry side of the supply chain, just to have a look at what we're producing, what we're growing. Of course, the thing is, even if we plant the trees today, it's going to be many, many years, a couple of generations, before we can cut them down. So we need to make that start now. We need to do it now, but we need to understand that this is a long game. The other thing we need to do is educate some of my members, possibly, as to how they can use more homegrown timber, because at the moment, the modus operandi is we'll go and buy it in Sweden Because it's cheaper.
Speaker 1:Because it's really there, it's just the quality is C, but we may be. I don't know, I'm not a technical expert but we may be using an over-specified product in certain aspects, something called C16 and C24. And it may be that we're using C24 where we could get away with C16, which is available in the UK. So those are the questions that are being asked within this supply working group. Certainly, education is a big area of priority for us.
Speaker 2:So I'm interested to now understand what roadblocks you see from your members that you think are just really easily overcome. If people would just understand what the truth was.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the first myth that you want to bust is around cost, because most people think that timber frame is more expensive than masonry.
Speaker 2:Why do they think that? Because in my mind it's like timber is cheaper than masonry. Why do they think that? Because in my mind it's like timber is cheaper than masonry.
Speaker 1:It's a myth, but it's also probably the fact that because they haven't built in timber frame necessarily, they're having to learn the process okay.
Speaker 2:So the cost of the construction is higher because of the learning process. I understand okay.
Speaker 1:However, uh, I've got a report here in front of me from a private firm of quantity surveyors called Ryder Levitt Bucknell who did an exercise just before Covid and they actually did a comparison between timber frame and masonry and they found that the construction cost saving was 1.1 percent, that the overall cost saving was 2.8 percent, but, most interestingly, the saving, ie the speed, was 19.5%. Which is why I think people like housing associations are looking at timber frame, because they want to get their residents in more quickly, the income in more quickly and the other thing talking about housing associations in terms of its thermal performance it outperforms masonry. So therefore the ability for residents to pay for their energy is improved, because you don't need, as much Interesting.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking that a couple of conversations I've had with housing associations in the past. They've been quite concerned about timber frame, especially when they start to consider the durability. They've got someone in the house. The house isn't theirs, it's not owned by them. Maybe there's some struggles that they're having domestically or just lack of care because it's just not their property. One of the things that they're concerned about is the exterior as well as the interior being accidentally damaged or just less robust than a masonry build. Would you agree with that concern? Would you say that was anything that they need to factor?
Speaker 1:in. I don't think it's a concern, or it shouldn't be a concern. What we do have is a document called how to Live in a Modern Timber Frame Home, and that's something we share with housing associations if they want it, because it's a bit like a lot of the modern gadgets nowadays, like air conditioning and the way we turn the television on and the heating and everything else. We're all having to learn, maybe, how to live our lives a little bit differently in the home that for many, many years was always the same. So I think there's a requirement, if you like, for the, for the residents just to understand what they're living in. I think I think young people now are quite open to that, aren't they? Because they're it's it's probably more people my age that struggle, I would think, if I'm honest. So I don't see, I don't think it's a problem.
Speaker 2:I think most housing associations now seem to be quite happy to uh to build in timber frame what is it that goes on in the conversations that you have with these governmental departments that you think people will really be surprised about how, either how far advanced we are in certain areas or the types of conversations that goes on? I'm just interested here. You've got access to government departments that most, if not all, of our audience, or my audience, doesn't.
Speaker 1:Just wonder if you can peel back that curtain a little bit and give someone an insight probably best for me to reflect on the most recent meeting I had with the new Labour Minister, mary Cray, who's now heading the roadmap. I was hugely impressed by her knowledge of what we were dealing with, because these people have got so many items in their portfolio so she'd obviously done her historic reading or certainly been well briefed by the civil servants. So that impressed me. But we're talking about really strategic issues. Let me give you an example. We're asking the government to consider something called Part Z in the building regulations. So if it gets into the building regulations then it has to happen. So any project that's built has to adhere to the building regulations.
Speaker 1:Now part Z is something that the industry have been writing for years and most industry bodies now are behind it. What it insists on is a measurement of embodied carbon. So it doesn't say use timber. But by sort of reference to part Z and low embodied carbon, you would probably think about timber first. So you can understand why we're keen. But, as I say, if we're successful, so is the planet.
Speaker 1:So that's the sort of conversation that I had with Mary and, as I say, I have to say she knew all about it. The other sort of type of conversation we have is around procurement and there's an example just across the channel in France where the government have said that any publicly funded buildings have to be 50% minimum natural products timber or similar and we're asking the UK government to consider something like that as an example also, so that it focuses the attention of the Department of Education, department of Health, etc. Etc. That they've got huge building programmes and it's public money and they need to play their part in reaching net zero and this is how you can do it. So those are the conversations we have and they get it and that's what I'm really impressed with. So it's having the ability to influence potentially that high level strategic decision making that actually will then cascade through and affect everybody in the UK construction industry. So it's quite exciting in that respect.
Speaker 2:Do you see this as a silver bullet to solve the how do we get to net zero by 2050? Obviously Part Z, as you said that that will legislate carbon emissions in a way that part l doesn't do. But do you see that, by having a model similar to what is in scotland, that that's actually going to lead the rest of the country on a clearer and easier path to to net zero by 2050?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure there's one silver bullet. I think what we're looking at is we're playing a long game across a lot of headings and I mentioned a couple, but we've got seven working groups. So we've got carbon supply, demand, skills, insurance, safety and innovation. So those are the seven working groups and each working group is looking at potential barriers and trying to come up with solutions. If there's one silver bullet, I would say Part Z is it because that would actually show a very strong direction of travel that we intend to take.
Speaker 1:But certainly the point you make about Scotland, and in our demand working group there is an idea that we should actually show best practice from north of the border. You know, because if you can do it in Scotland, why can't you do it in northumbria, sort of thing. You know what I mean. There's just hadrian's wall in between, so you know what I mean. So that taking best practice from north of the border into england is certainly one of the solutions and most of the businesses that the household names I've given you, they've got businesses in scotland, they've got businesses in England. So there shouldn't be any barriers in terms of communication. So it's probably culture. You asked me earlier on in this conversation. What's the biggest barrier? And I would say it's culture. We've always done it this way.
Speaker 2:I totally agree. I've got a number of friends in Scotland, been to Scotland a number of times and there are a number of things that they are happy around construction doing in Scotland that in England just doesn't seem to learn that well. And you go across, you know, to France. You mentioned about France. Same thing there. You go to Spain. Same thing there. You start to go to the Scandinavian countries. Again there's another shift and and switch there as well. You start to. I remember the first passive house that I saw was actually in Sweden and I looked at it from the outside and in my mind's eye could not imagine it being in any street in this country in England at all, but over there.
Speaker 1:Well, I suppose the old adage that you know, an English man's house is his castle.
Speaker 2:It didn't look very castle-like, no well that's my point.
Speaker 1:So most people have got this image, haven't they, of an English house which is probably brick-clad, it's probably two up, two down, with a chimney and a big front door. You know what I mean, and it's the same as the three little pigs. That's how you're brought up. I think life's changing. I think the fact that people are getting about more worldwide and seeing other ways of living. I think they're bringing that back into the UK. So and I do see the younger generation considerably changing their approach well, why do we have to have brick on the outside? What? Why?
Speaker 2:do you know what I mean? Absolutely, and I agree with that wholeheartedly and I think that the that the generation I've seen it with my own children is that they are more comfortable asking why than what. Probably I was when I was growing up, but definitely my parents when they were growing up to ask why that was a crime, you should be seen and not heard. You had all different types of issues when you asked that. Why question? But now it's celebrated, it's accepted and that is the way that we live at the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know, going around the world, I think sort of figure I have in my mind is about three out of four homes are built in timber frame around the world. I was in the states a few years ago on a fact-finding tour and that's that's. You know, that's significantly predominantly timber frame. I, my daughter, lives in australia predominantly timber frame. I, my daughter, lives in Australia Predominantly timber frame.
Speaker 2:Well now, andrew, I think that we're now at a place where we can go to the demolition zone, where we're going to discuss a myth and we're going to not knock those myths down and bust them. You ready? I Well, andrew, we're in the demolition zone and you have created what to me looks like a small village. To be honest, you've got a number of towers. You have used every single block that we've got, but it's fairly low rise for what we've seen on the podcast before. But what does this represent?
Speaker 1:I think that represents sort of an inner city, inner town conurbation and maybe the uh opportunities that that structural timber frame uh might might bring. You say it's low rise. I mean there's quite a lot in there.
Speaker 2:That's six stories um, which is uh, that's relatively high so we've had a couple of buildings here in the demolition zone that have gone out of camera shot, really. So compared to what they've done, that's, that's my idea of high rise, okay.
Speaker 1:This is a comparison. Maybe I don't take those sort of risks.
Speaker 2:Maybe this is a safe bet.
Speaker 1:I wanted it all to stay there until we actually demolish it.
Speaker 2:And you didn't take as long as they did, to be honest, to build this big tower.
Speaker 1:Okay, Maybe that's another attribute of mine I like to do things quickly there you go. Good.
Speaker 2:So this represents the types of diversity that can come through timber construction.
Speaker 1:Yes, If you can see there's some low rise here, some medium rise and okay, one, two, three, four, five, six about eight stories there, Relatively high rise when it comes to structural timber.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that, and so the myth at the moment is timber frame is not that diverse. There's only just kind of one lane you can put timber frame in.
Speaker 1:I think the main problem we have at the moment is that timber frame is not considered by many still to be a mainstream building material, particularly when it comes to housing. Because if we're going to use more timber in construction, it's going to be housing, where we have, if you like, the low hanging fruit, where we can make an immediate difference in terms of using more timber construction. So we've got this culture shift that we have to take and that that can form a lot of issues maybe in people's minds. We've already talked about one or two today. We've talked about cost Timber frame is more expensive Well, actually it isn't. We've talked about supply Is there enough raw material? Well, actually, yes, there is. We've talked about fire yes, we've got fire guidance.
Speaker 1:But the myth I'd like to demolish is actually one of capacity, because we as a sector have got the capacity to almost double the amount of timber frame homes that we can offer UK limited and we have to do that. We have to get that capacity almost doubled if we're going to hit these targets, to get to net zero. We did a survey of our members I think I briefly talked about this. We did it recently, middle of last year and we think as a sector, we can deliver 100,000 homes per year, which is exactly a third of what the government is looking for.
Speaker 1:So what we need to do is we need to break down that thought, that barrier that people have, that you can't build in timber frame. You can build in timber frame. You must build in timber frame. And, to use a phrase from Shaw in my Fair Lady, delivered by Alfred P Doolittle, the father of Eliza Doolittle, we are willing to help you, we're wanting to help you, we're waiting to help you, and that's how I see it in terms of the perception of timber frame. We've got to put it on the front foot, we've got to make it the first building material of choice and then work back if it's not the material that's suitable for any, any given project I love that.
Speaker 2:Andrew absolutely love that, and the reference to my fair lady as well absolutely awesome well, it had to be, didn't I, with my background in musical theatre?
Speaker 1:I've played Alfred P Doolittle twice, and I've been in my Fair Lady five times, so it's probably one of my favourite shows.
Speaker 2:That's good. Well, maybe you can put that to the marketing team as a suggestion for your new strapline.
Speaker 1:I have used it in political meetings previously. I don't think they maybe know where it comes from. Sometimes I do break into quotes from musicalss, just sometimes for a bit of a laugh internally, uh, but only when they fit that's good.
Speaker 2:I love that. Well, you've cleared this myth up in words. Now you can clear it up indeed, by just destroying this myth. Thank you very much. I look forward to it. I love that that is really destroyed. Thank you very much, I look forward to it. I love that that is really destroyed. How did that feel? Oh, I loved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't often do things like that. Cut yourself another hobby now, yeah, Crack, bash it down, my grandson's Lego or whatever he's using nowadays?
Speaker 2:Just make sure he gets permission. So is there anything that you would say that would help the leaders of the future try and enact change in the industry? What advice would you give to the leaders of the future?
Speaker 1:I think I'd probably go back to the comments I made right at the front around communication, but flip it so, rather than talking, listen, and I think that's a quality of communication that we didn't cover last time.
Speaker 1:So that ability to listen and then understand what the issues are so that you can bring all that together and and come up with a, with a solution. If we want to get this, this big picture stuff, that we want to get to net zero by 2050 and I can't think there are many people in the the uk now that don't believe that that is essential in view of what else is going on. So you know, building, as I say, is such a big part of that. So we need to understand how we can play our part and I think that's about, particularly if you're coming in, go out and listen, go out and learn and then collaborate.
Speaker 1:We have a very adversarial culture in the uk construction industry. We work in silos with this, with that, with that. Break those barriers down, work collaboratively. The client, the contractor, the consultant, the manufacturer understand each other's issues. Why do we do what we do? Can we help?
Speaker 1:Do it better, understand that, collaborate, have integrated supply chains, early involvement of the supply chain, so that we can bring the expertise and understanding into the design process earlier, into the design process earlier. Don't just do it in that area there and then impose things on the rest of the supply chain. Work together. Through doing that, we can then create lean processes so we can remove waste from the system, not just physical waste, I'm now talking about process waste as well. But by doing that we can build more houses more quickly. But we'll only do that if we have that collaborative culture, integrated supply chain and lean process. And you know that that falls totally in line with mmc, modern method of construction, off-site construction, which of course timber frame is, and for timber frame to really stack up then we have to to bring all that into play.
Speaker 2:I like that. That's good. That's really good advice. I think that's um the the part that you spoke to there about communication. I think that that, for me, bleeds into empathy, because in order for you to empathize or to have empathy, you need to listen more than what you speak, because otherwise you can't have empathy well, I, I have a background in sales and I was always taught as a very young man that you've got, you've got two ears and one mouth and to use them in that proportion.
Speaker 1:Now I have to say, in my 48 years I've had great difficulty sticking to that advice because when I was a dj back in the day, I used to play records in between my chat. So you know, I I have got an issue, but I get the view and I do try when I can to stick to that rule, which I learned as a 21 year old probably.
Speaker 2:I'm sure for those people watching and listening to this, just for you to drop that bomb of you were a DJ when you were younger is like whoa stereo. You still DJ.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, yeah, I've been a DJ now 50 years. This year I don't do many gigs now. I probably only did half a dozen last year. I don't know if I'll do that many this year. So I pick and choose. I like to do 70s and 80s gigs because that's my era. But, yeah, I had a booking last week come in, so this summer.
Speaker 2:So yeah.
Speaker 1:I do the odd gig. I'm just thinking in terms of a stereotypical dj. I'm sure people would not look at you and think, yeah, this, this guy fits the bill for that one. Well, my hero was steve wright and I worked with steve wright three times and he was my hero. So if I was you know, to base my style on anyone it would be that because in those days you could take the mickey out of anything and everything. Nowadays I have to keep stung because it's not politically correct to do that, but those were the days I enjoyed and steve wright was, was, was my, was my hero good good, it's great that you've got that hobby, but it doesn't sound like that.
Speaker 2:This is a plea for a booking at the end of this podcast. Please book me, please don't book me.
Speaker 1:I really do it now as a as a hobby. I do it for people I know or events, corporate events, raising money for charity or just things like that. Really I don't do. I did the nightclubs right up to the age of 50. I gave them up, or rather they. They probably gave me up when I realized that there were people in the room that could have been my grandchildren.
Speaker 2:So it's probably time to depart, that's fine, um, just lastly, now I'm wondering what you see the future being for your members. What messages are you sending out to them? Um, guidance, reassurance, vision, what's what's the future for your members?
Speaker 1:so we we see the opportunities in front of us as probably the best they've ever been, certainly the best I've ever known in my 14 years with the STA, but also probably the best opportunity for any group within my 48 years in construction. When before has a UK government said use more timber in construction or whatever material? When has a government said do that? So the strap line that I use, or the words I use when I'm up on the stage, is that the opportunity of a lifetime has to be grasped in the lifetime of the opportunity, and that opportunity is now. But with opportunity comes responsibility. So we're upping the ante on everything we're doing, particularly on quality and quality assurance. We've got something called sta assure, which is like the gold standard for quality assurance and we make sure that our members adhere to. To sta assure. That's to give confidence to stakeholders, to clients, that they're going, they can use it with confidence going forward. So every one of our manufacturer members is audited annually. We also require them to use erectors that have been through our erector scheme and designers that have been through our designer scheme. So you know that if you use an STA member, it's designed, it's built and it's erected. In this quality assurance system.
Speaker 1:We're also upping the ante in terms of the offer from the STA. We've just appointed, six months ago, a new technical director. We've just appointed a project manager to help me run the timber and construction roadmap. I've got a new PR and marketing director. I've got a new membership manager. We're upping the game on the quality manager quality manager all around me. I've got an, a team of experts because we can see the opportunity in front of us. We want to make sure that we're giving our members, we're giving our clients, potential clients, government the absolutely best possible evidence, results, facts, whatever you need. We're going to provide it as a platform for our members to grow. So my message to the members is to strike. My message to the members is to take advantage of this opportunity, and my message to the industry as a whole, to stakeholders, to clients go out and specify timber.
Speaker 2:Andrew, it's been great speaking to you and I've just got one last question. Can you just help me understand what your involvement has been with the future home standard or with the home energy model connecting with the zero homes hub?
Speaker 1:Well, it's very interesting. You asked that question I mentioned in the last question. You asked me about the new members of staff we brought in relatively recently. One of those was to help me manage the timber and construction roadmap. That's a gentleman by the name of Stuart Dalgarno who's 40 years experience in the sector. He's working two days a week for me, but the other two weeks two days a week he's working for the Future Homes Hub. So our link is absolutely inextricable and in, in fact, we've got the chief executive of the Future Homes Hub as my keynote speaker at our conference next month. The agendas that we have are very, very similar. We will obviously be working hand in hand more closely going forward because Part Z, for example, is one of their top priorities that they're seeking. So we're on the same page and we're working closely and helping one another where we, where we can for those people listening.
Speaker 2:Where can they go to find out more information about the work that you're involved with and also some of the other data around the benefits of building with timber as opposed to traditional?
Speaker 1:so we have two, two websites, uh, the first one is is the structural timber association, which is wwwstructuraltimbercouk, but we've also got one that's aligned to that, which is if you type in time for timber in google, it'll come up. So structural timber has got all the technical stuff. Time for timber is maybe more aimed at those that are looking to build in timber for the first time, but that would be where I would, where I would send people or by all means contact myself or anyone on my team, and then we can, you know, pass it around to whoever's the best person to to answer.
Speaker 2:Andrew, it's been a pleasure having you here, appreciate your time, your wisdom, your energy and your quotes from from theater. It's been an absolute joy having you. I really appreciate it, thank you thank you.