Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 62 40% of the UK’s Carbon Emissions Come from Construction – Here’s How To Fix It
How to Tackle Greenwashing in Construction with Charlie Martin. In this episode of Thrive in Construction, Darren sits down with Charlie Martin, co-founder of The Responsible Edge podcast and a leading voice in sustainable marketing within the built environment.
Charlie shares how organisations can avoid greenwashing through responsible storytelling and practical frameworks. From marketing clumsiness to courageous leadership, he dives deep into the realities of sustainability, green claims policies, and why authenticity matters more than ever in today's construction industry.
Charlie also discusses the journey behind launching his podcast and the importance of transparent communication in the construction sector. If you're a construction professional, marketer, or sustainability advocate looking to create real impact, this episode is packed with valuable insights you won’t want to miss.
Key Topics Covered:
- What is greenwashing and why it’s damaging the industry
- How construction companies can communicate sustainability honestly
- The power of transparency and “clumsy” progress
- The commercial benefits of being open and authentic
Links:
The Anti-Greenwash Charter Twitter: https://x.com/theagcharter
The Anti-Greenwash Charter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-anti-greenwash-charter
Charlie's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliekmartin/
https://antigreenwashcharter.com/
The Responsible Edge Podcast: https://theresponsibleedge.com/
Darren: darrenevans.komi.io
The next episodes of Thriving Construction come straight from FutureBuild. Huge thanks to EcoCocoon. The space was great for chats, acoustics and, even better, well-being.
Speaker 2:Transparency is uncomfortable, transparency is vulnerable. Transparency is not sharing all the very, very, very best of what's going on. It's sharing the difficult stuff as well. It's sharing the obstacles and the challenges that you as a business are going through. So, with that in mind, I think the initial reaction was oh wow, that really is laying ourselves bare for anybody to go and read in this policy. You know exactly how we operate in terms of our marketing communication. So I think within marketing comms and again I might be massively overly generalizing this point, but I feel like there's always this slightly uncomfortable bit around the creative side of marketing comms, because everyone says, well, look, you've got to do it responsibly, but you've got to do it creatively, or how do those two things coexist? Because at times you are going to have to push the envelope. Whatever that envelope, you know that line looks like going to have to term something in a way that perhaps hasn't been termed before. Is that going to cause somebody to be sort of misunderstand exactly what you're saying or misconstrue it in some sort of way?
Speaker 1:so it is a challenging game to play to get this stuff right it's really interesting that you touch on this point, because marketing is all about storytelling. Everyone loves a good story, and how do you make sure that you're not, that you're inspiring somebody through a story, but that you're not giving a sense of something that doesn't exist and entering into this fantasy realm in order for you to feel good or in order for you to lift up your clients or your colleagues or whoever you are?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, we talk a lot about about just misleading storytelling. You know, um storytelling where you omit information. I think I think this is the the crux of the matter. I think we're all getting people are becoming so much more aware of, I think, the basic fundamentals of how you go about communicating your story, in terms of the evidence and substantiation that you have to provide for the specific statements that you make about your offering, about your company, about your product or your service. I think these sort of standards of practice are beginning to be ingrained and implemented and that's obviously key to the work that we're doing at the Antigone Wash Charter. The bit that's difficult and the bit that comes back to that point about creative comms and marketing practice is the omission, the things you choose not to share, the things you choose to sort of, you know, not disclose, if you like within your materials, because that's where I think the most devious and the most impactful forms of greenwashing exist. I think that's really really important for people to kind of look at those two different categories.
Speaker 1:If you like. So playing devil's advocate here. What is the problem with greenwashing If I just tell a story? Everyone loves a bit of fantasy, a bit of escapism. Well, why not just hide those things? Is it really under the carpet or is it just going to come back to bite me at some point in the future?
Speaker 2:I think's there's two points. There's a there's sort of a micro, local point to make on this and a macro point. I'll start with the macro point. I think the problem with greenwashing, or the problem with any form of misinformation, in all honesty and and and I don't think you even need to think about the built environment or even think about environmentalism here just look at what's happening in the us.
Speaker 2:Over the course of the last six weeks or so, the media has been flooded with information. A lot of it misinformation or disinformation that is that is essentially causing everybody to move slowly. Decisions are made slower when we are flooded with information that we're not sure what's true and what's not, and we all we talk about the acceleration to net zero, or the acceleration to net zero requires speed. It requires speed of decision making, and the problem with greenwashing, in terms of its sort of overall global impact, if you like, is that it slows decision making down, and if we make slow decisions, we're not going to accelerate towards next zero, probably. So that's from a macro level.
Speaker 2:I think the key concern with greenwashing, in terms of on a sort of a local level, a business level, it's not just now about the reputational damage that you're going to do, which is significant, but there are changes that are afoot, certainly in europe, and they're likely to affect here in the uk when it comes to regulation um, and I think there's a more discerning customer or supplier that you might, or partner you might, work with, who is looking for evidence that you are a responsible communicator, and that's really what embodies the work that we're doing at the Charter is we allow our signatories sorry for allowing me to plug, but we allow our signatories to position themselves as responsible and ethical communicators and marketeers, and that's crucial, I think, in terms of purchasing decisions.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you're aware of the recent change that BP had made in terms of. They had said very clearly and very boldly we're going to shift from a petroleum into a renewable energy organization, and the shareholders went mad and now they've switched back. Is are there enough shareholders of larger organizations or even mid-sized organizations that really care about the things that you're talking about for it to grow and really matter.
Speaker 2:I think it's what I think there is are. It'd be remiss of me not to agree, if you like, with the fact that, clearly, the ESG, the environmentalist agenda, if you like is taking a bit of a bashing at the moment and we find ourselves in a geopolitical climate which is, you know it's scary, and you know, obviously, podcast the thrive, thriving, um, thriving construction is all about sustainable construction. I mean, it's affecting you guys as well, I think it's affecting a lot of us. But I think the thing that people do care about, regardless of of the view of esg or or sustainable, environmental sustainability, is they care about being lied to. They care about reading the truth, whatever that truth might be.
Speaker 2:Whether or not bp is choosing now to disregard all of its previous you know assertions that it was we're going to focus on renewables, etc. Or not, we want to know that what they're telling us is the truth and, yes, they. Organizations can change, organizations can evolve. There'll be some people that feel like, well, we've been lied to, you've said one thing and you've done another, but we need to, you know, in a modern, real world, we need to allow for people to change their minds. The crucial thing for us is that, whatever you're positioning now, I want you to be able to show me and present to me the evidence and the specific specificity, if you like I don't know if I've got that word right to show me that that what you're presenting is truthful and substantiated.
Speaker 1:I love that to me greenwashing feels very much like catfishing. Okay, you're pretending to be something that you're not you're. You're putting up a front, putting makeup on it, putting a dress on it, putting a different pair of trousers or shoes or whatever. You want to make something this really bad look like something that's really good I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:I think there's this big thing in in business now again, a term that we all use authenticity, yeah, you know, and I think all of my uh advisors he spoke to me about.
Speaker 2:Authenticity is about is about long-term thinking. It's about being able to say, look, if we go down this route and we present ourselves in this way, we can commit even if we're not there right now, we can commit to being that thing, being that position, if you like, over the long term. And what that means is we can acknowledge where we're not so good right now. We can fess up and say, look, here are the areas where we're not sustainable as an organization, because, of course, there is no organization that is truly sustainable out there. So we've all got areas to improve. The the crucial thing is about presenting that, and that's when authenticity kicks in and that's when I think, in the world that we live in now and the world that we're going to live in over the next 5, 10, 15 years, authenticity and the belief in what you are reading and engaging with it when it comes to corporate communications is going to be absolutely essential for for growth, prosperity and the sustainability of your business.
Speaker 1:I love that. One of the things I'm really interested in is just going back now to this marketing director that was feeling really concerned about being vulnerable. How is it that you managed to overcome his concerns and help him have the courage to move forward in an area that he wasn't comfortable with? Because I think that you're not the only person or your colleagues along with you are not the only person that has this desire inside of them to do something really good. Present that to someone else. That's a key decision maker. And then they have concerns that you're like how do I overcome this? How do I tell you a story to help you move forward with courage? I don't want to get rid of fear, because getting rid of fear is either not possible or not desirable. Fear is fine, but how do we move forward in the presence of fear, which is courage? I?
Speaker 2:think there's a term that has come up time and time again and it originated from conversations with this marketing director um, he's getting a lot of air time. I will give him a nudge after this to say that we, without naming, did talk a lot about you on the show. Um, he, we, we discussed this. He said you know, I do feel uncomfortable. You know, are we ready to do this sort of thing? There was a lot of. Are we ready?
Speaker 2:And once we do this, once we stick our heads above the parapet, we've, we've, you know, we've stuck a target on our back that anybody can turn around and go. Well, look, in your green claims policy it says x and you're doing what? And I sort of said but, but that's almost the. That's the point really. You're accountable to something publicly stated and the crucial thing is that you now have, you know, essentially, you have, you have, you have a framework that you operate now within. And then he came back and we had this long discussion and he threw the word clumsy at me and I've used this word consistently since then. This is what, three years down the road, we are in the sustainability world. We all need to acknowledge that we are just a bit clumsy at the moment. We are trying most people are trying their very, very best to get this stuff right. They're, in terms of instances of people you know, directly trying to mislead they do happen, you know. I think back to Grenfell Tower, there was some definite, clear deception and practices that were implemented within that particular case. However, the majority of people are trying to do their best and what's going to happen is that we're going to be clumsy and we're going to get things wrong along the way.
Speaker 2:And when I speak to this marketing director, it was the realization for him that positioning the brand as being one that was going to acknowledge when it got things wrong fully and accept responsibility for getting things wrong, but that by doing that, they would liberate themselves, and I think this is another key term liberate themselves to be able to communicate openly about the things that they are doing.
Speaker 2:Well, and I was actually watching uh there in one of your previous episodes of of uh, of thriving construction, with martin hearn, who's obviously the um director here at future build today, which was perfect and segue for me to pull in, and you were asking or talking to him about green hushing and I think this is this is the key point here is that we've got to have businesses feeling emboldened enough, comfortable enough, in order to share, you know, the credentials that they have. Um, and I think the crucial thing to facilitate that is proactive disclosure around the areas that you're not so good, because that then gives you the condition, it liberates you, to be able to speak confidently about the things that you are doing well so that was the conversation that you had with him pretty much not verbatim.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, and so now, speaking to someone that's in an organization in a similar position to you, what approach would you say that they could follow or take? In a clumsy manner, because this is the first time that you've ever done it? Yeah, appreciating that the people that they will be speaking to will be different to the character that you were dealing with, but what advice and what specifics can you give to help people in in that position?
Speaker 2:well, if I, I I think what would be probably best. I think I've understood your question correctly, but tell me if I have, In terms of the thing that we do with the organizations that we work with in order to build the confidence required in order for them to then communicate really clearly and really compliantly about their sustainability credentials, is that we do three things with an organization. The first thing that we do is we do what we call greenwash awareness training. So a lot of people get greenwash or have issues around misinformation because they actually just don't really know what it is that they're talking about or how they should go about fully substantiating the claims that they're making, etc. So we do some work alongside the carbon literacy project. Who essentially deliver through us, uh, greenwashness Drink. So that's the first thing and that I should say is delivered at not only marketing, comms and sales team level, but also at the C-suite level as well, because it's super important that the leaders of these organizations understand Greenwash and understand that the pressure that they might put on their sales, marketing comms teams in order to perform a little bit better realize that KPI or that outcome. There are real consequences from a brand perspective of them doing that and causing greenwashing to occur. So that's the first thing.
Speaker 2:The second thing that we encourage all organizations to do is to do what we call a static content review. So this is where you get probably a third party an expert third party to essentially analyze your website, your brochure materials, your product declarations, your cred decks, etc. And analyze that content against the Green Claims Code here in the UK, which is our kind of governing framework that I alluded to before, but actually to also look across the pond, or across the channel, if you like, to the EU and the Green Claims Directive, which is coming into force this year and is very much the best in class when it comes to greenwash regulation in the world. There are things that you can learn from that that you can then pull in and influence the content that you have, the static content you have.
Speaker 2:The final point, or the final thing that we encourage organisations to do, is to develop a green claims policy, as we discussed earlier, and the crucial thing with that is that that, then, is a document that governs any content that you produce ongoing. So if you're writing an article, or if you're putting together some social media posts, or if you're doing anything where you're about to publish content out there. What you'll do is you'll use your green claims policy in order to make sure that you've done all of your checks, that you've used your language correctly, that you've included your claims with substantiation. So that's the three stage process that we recommend every organization goes through. Once you've done that, if you think about it, you've got a team that's fully greenwash aware and understands anti-greenwashing best practice. All of your static content the stuff that's not really going to change has been updated in line with regulation, and you have a green claims policy which you can then use with your marketing, sales and and comms teams in order to govern any content that you produce ongoing.
Speaker 1:You're pretty much set and that's something that your organization currently provides that pathway, that pathway or that framework to work inside of that.
Speaker 2:That what I've just described to you is what we call our signatory development phase. So it's the phase that you go through once we've assessed you for suitability to join the charter. We don't want bad actors joining the charter for greenwashing purposes, so we have to do some checks on you. We then do what we call the signatory development phase, which is those three activities I've described, and then, once that's completed, that's when the organization is recognized as a signatory of the antigen wash charter and enters into what we call a license period, a 12-month license period, where we then commission what we call spot checks, and spot checks are where we would turn around and say darren, right for that campaign that you launched last week. We now want you to share all of the evidence to show that you've implemented your green claims policy effectively, and that's then analyzed, and then you're found to be, hopefully compliant with your own green case policy and you can continue to be a signatory of the charter.
Speaker 1:I love that good you've been in the construction industry for a little while, a little while. You've seen a few things. What is the thing that you feel prevents us from accelerating the whole green agenda, be that sustainability net zero, what is? What is it that you feel is the biggest blocker?
Speaker 2:if I may, I'll make it related to to my world and to comms and marketing, and we kind of alluded to it already on on the show. But I think the the the big issue for the constructional built environment sector is that, obviously, with 40 of all emissions, as we alluded to at the beginning of the show there's a lot of pressure on us as an industry to decarbonize like a lot of pressure, probably more pressure than any other sector. So you've immediately got pressure. What you've then got as a result of that is you've got potential instances of greenwashing, which I think is why greenwashing is quite prevalent within the sector, because there is this pressure. They're the KPIs that have been set, these are the targets being set, etc.
Speaker 2:What that then does is comes back to my point before it dilutes the speed, or it pulls the speed back, if you like. That we need in order to accelerate towards the net zero. You know outcomes that we're trying to achieve and that's the crucial point when it comes to communications. Imagine a world just just humor me for a moment imagine a world where we were sat here and we knew that every single stand that we went around to today when we read a slogan or we read a brochure material, we could implicitly trust in a hundred percent of what we were engaging with.
Speaker 1:I guarantee you that decisions about partners and products and organizations that people work with happening in future build over the course next few days would happen a hell of a lot quicker, and that would allow us to move towards a more sustainable future within the construction sector more quickly so are you saying then and I'm not wanting to put words in your mouth here, but are you saying here that the thing that is preventing is the fear of rejection, because if I'm honest, you're going to see me for all of the bad things and someone else may be better than me and I'm going to be rejected, and I don't like being rejected.
Speaker 2:It's a really good point. It's a really good point. There is a danger to being vulnerable and being open about where you, as an organization, are not doing as well, if you like. There is a danger that you're going to be picked up and somebody's going to go. Well, your competitor is is better in that area.
Speaker 2:I think that we need to think about this more collectively, though, and I think we need to understand that if we're all working in our own silos and we're all working on our own you know businesses, success, and that's our absolute, finite focus um, we're not going to get very far in dealing with some of these issues that are at play. So I think we need to everyone needs to pull their socks up and get their big boy pants on, I think, and go. Do you know what? There's something bigger than this, bigger than us, bigger than our individual businesses, and we need to become vulnerable. Learn that's.
Speaker 2:The other point is that if we were all collectively sharing honestly where we were, is that the peer-to-peer learning that would occur? The collaboration, the partnership you know, on our show, on our podcast, we talk a lot about partnership and collaboration and the need for it, or the way that you do. That is, you open the doors and you communicate with each other about the difficulties and the the progresses, etc. So I think it's just, you know, we need to collectively start thinking in this way. Um, I don't. I'm not answering your question directly, but I just hope that that's what we'll end up doing.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's interesting. I, just as you're speaking there, I'm thinking about organizations coming together to do that, and we know that this is what needs to happen. But then there's a barrier between that knowledge then bridging into action. Yeah, and I just think, how many times have I known that I've needed to do something? Yeah, maybe go to the gym, maybe get out of bed, maybe go to bed, maybe not have that bar of chocolate, but I've still done it. Yeah, because there's a difference, isn't there, between, should we say, the head and the heart? The head says do this, because that's where the knowledge is. The heart is like actually, this is what my desire is, or this is just what I find easy to do and I think that's a, it's a really good, it's a very human point and a very human observation.
Speaker 2:For me, I think what's fascinating is that right now we're already seeing our signatories come back to us and say, because we have gone through this process and, by the way, this isn't a shameless plug for the anti-greenwash charter do it, do it. But if, if organizations are coming back to us and going, you know big contractors are coming back to us, they're going. We have had our status as a signature of the Antigone Wash Charter and, by association, being open and transparent and vulnerable about the way that we communicate. We've had that picked up within tender submission frameworks and people have gone. That's interesting, that's different, that's point scoring towards your overall tender submission.
Speaker 2:So we are getting that evidence that, actually, if you are thinking about that commercial outcome, if you're thinking about the analogy of you know, eating that chocolate bar and enjoying a bit more success, if you are thinking about that commercial outcome, if you're thinking about the the analogy of you know, eating that chocolate bar and enjoying a bit more success, if you like, this is a way to do it and the first movers, the ones that do do this now, um, are the ones that will win this game. The difficulty will come when everybody has chosen to be vulnerable and open and transparent away about the way they communicate their claims and their sustainability credentials. And those, those, those final few, those will have a very difficult decision to make because there won't be the gains to be had for those that have done it more promptly will.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't know if again that answer isn't directly Darren, but I think there is a real opportunity for organisations to see the commercial value in positioning their businesses in this way.
Speaker 1:I love that so what organizations are really well connected with you? Can you list them off?
Speaker 2:So I think the largest organization that we work with is Morgan Sindel Construction. They've been a signatory for, I think, just over a year now and have just recently renewed with us. That's certainly the largest organization that we've worked with.
Speaker 1:But they're in the retrofit space. Right Morgan Sindel.
Speaker 2:Morgan Sindel retrofit and new build. I think there's obviously a large organization doing a lot of work within the construction sector. For us, obviously, it's a big deal to be working with an organization of that size. In terms of some other names from the built environment, we work with Timber Development UK so they're our first, I think, membership body that have taken this on, and you know that's fantastic for us to see a membership body like Timber Development UK taking this on and obviously encouraging their members to join in. And then there's quite a lot of interiors. So we work with natural paint uk. We work with kandine design and flooring, um and uh, and a few other kind of yeah, as I say, interiors organizations. So, um, in fact, what another organization here today back to earth? They're a natural building material supplier um, chris brookman's. If I'm gonna give chris a plug, he's a good good of mine. So, yeah, there's a growing number of organizations that are doing this, but obviously we'd love to see more do it too.
Speaker 1:So we're going to put a link to your organization and for people to sign up for the charter down in the show notes and also at the bottom of the podcast. But if someone's on the fence and listening well, shall I, shall I not? What would be the one thing that you would say to them to try and help them go over the edge towards signing up?
Speaker 2:that is, as opposed to the other way well, I t, I t what I can go and maybe we can. By the way, thank you for for including all those those links there. I want to throw another link into the into the mix, if you like. That's a link to our green claims policy template. So one of the decisions that we made to address exactly what you've just said is we thought that once an organization gets hold of a green claims policy and can actually see what's in what, I think it's quite compelling to go actually, yeah, I can see us producing something similar and seeing the value in doing so. To go, actually, yeah, I can see us producing something similar and seeing the value in doing so. So my suggestion would be that we'll include the link to the green claims policy template download and anybody that's you know just wants to check out. Well, what would I be committing to here? Like, what would it look like? Go and download the template and have a look at it yourself in terms of support.
Speaker 1:Is there anyone that they can contact or anywhere that they can go, where they can just get some support from someone?
Speaker 2:get some help 100, I mean. Again on our website you'll find links to to book in discovery calls and to have catch-ups with us no obligation calls to find out more about what we're doing. Always more than happy to throw our pennies worth into. You know specific circumstances that organizations are going through. Um, I think. Also on our website we've got a lot of materials looking at kind of greenwashing best practice or, if you like, anti-greenwashing best practice. So again, check out the materials on our site. Love that Good.
Speaker 1:One last question before we end. The last question I've got is there's a huge need for younger people to come into the industry. I'm wondering if someone's listening to this that is not in the industry, that is maybe trying to decide what they want to do with their career. Yeah, where could they start? Where would be a good place for them to start in terms of getting into the construction side? Yeah, making a difference. You know there are people out there that want to make a difference to the world. They know the significance of, uh, the construction industry in terms of the use of resources, um, and how most things go to landfill. I think this, that is, 75 percent of things go to landfill. Yeah, but they want to make a difference. Where is it that you would suggest that they could go to start to discover how and where the impact they could make could be within the industry?
Speaker 2:um, I am not a careers career advisor. I should say, before you're going, the industry right, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I I think, first of all, I think, acknowledging the opportunity for impact within the construction sector. You've alluded to it there, like if you are a young person, you are really focused and obviously gen z is are, I think, more focused than any other generation on trying to have impact and significance in the work they do. There is no better opportunity to have a significant impact and to affect things than to jump into the built environment industry. My suggestion would be there are so many interesting initiatives out there that you can go and engage with, that are operating within the built environment, that have free, that have free resources, that have, you know, webinars that you can attend, that have podcasts that you can listen to and be inspired by. There's just so much out there. My number one recommendation would be to go and immerse yourself in as much of this content and free, freemium content, if you like, that you can engage with and that will introduce you to interesting people, that will introduce you to interesting initiatives and that will be, hopefully, the inspiration that will then focus your attention into a particular area of the industry.
Speaker 2:But I would say to any young person out there that is thinking about, as I say, what to do next, regardless of it being the built environment of the construction sector. Just go and play, go and try um, go and experiment um, and there's a lot of opportunities out there for knocks on the door. So, yeah, that built environment with the construction sector. Just go and play, go and try um, go and experiment um, and there's a lot of opportunities out there for knocks on the door. So, yeah, that would be my recommendation.
Speaker 1:Great, chad, it's been great speaking with you. I have really loved the comment that you've made about the industry being clumsy. Now I'm a father of four children and I've helped every single one of them, along along with my wife, walk and when they first start to walk it's clumsy, they fall down lots, it's uncomfortable, but you know, they're all good at walking. Now the youngest one's 16 and I don't think any of them have fallen over in years. But when they were younger they fell over frequently and I think that that is a really accurate description of where it feels like that we're at at the moment, especially as uh as an industry.
Speaker 1:Myself, as a owner of a sustainability and energy consultancy, I've seen that with organizations and I've I've never used that terminology and word before, so I think I'm going to take that and use that from your uh marketing. Was he your marketing director as the marketing director of your mind? Yeah, I'm going to take that and use that from your uh marketing. Was he your marketing director as the marketing director of your mind? Yeah, I'm going to say, just let him know, I'm going to steal that phrase from him. Well, I'm paying him.
Speaker 2:He's paying it forward to me and I'm paying it forward to you.
Speaker 1:I love that but, but, that's, but, that's absolutely great. But I think that the celebration is in the desire to keep going and in that vulnerability that you're talking about. Look, I'm learning to walk here. Yes, I will fall over and I may hurt myself, but what I'm gonna do is learn to walk and and darryl.
Speaker 2:I just want I never really finished, but I think that's so. You beautifully described that and I think, even talking about your children, we need to be more nurturing and supportive of one another. I think that's the point it would in that context. You know you, your children are going to become when they first start war. We are all clumsy at the moment. Let's support one another Instead of throwing stones at one another. Let's actually support and engage with each other. So yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on, but it's great to be here.
Speaker 1:It's a future build and, yeah, I hope that from being here, but it's been great having you on the show. Aaron, thank you very much for having me. Thanks for watching to the end. I think that you'll like this. But before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you've subscribed.