Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 65 28% of Materials Reused in a Real Estate Project: Ground-breaking Construction Sustainability
Tina Paillet is a leader in sustainable real estate and circular economy practices. In this insightful conversation on the Thrive in Construction Podcast, Tina shares her unique journey from studying architecture to founding a groundbreaking business focused on reusing building materials.
Tina discusses her work in the construction and real estate industries, including how she is helping reshape the way we think about demolition and reuse through futures trading of construction materials. She also highlights a successful collaboration with British Land, where 28% of materials from a building strip-out were repurposed, setting a new standard for sustainability in the sector.
As co-founder of the CircularDo Tank, Tina is actively driving change in the circular economy, urging real estate developers and asset managers to rethink how they source, reuse, and recycle building materials. Her passion for innovation and sustainability is evident as she explains the importance of creating value from reused materials and how this approach is shaping the future of the construction industry.
Tune in to learn about:
- Tina's career path from architecture to circular economy innovations
- The concept of futures trading in the construction industry
- How Tina’s initiatives are transforming material reuse in real estate
- Leadership advice for aspiring professionals in construction and real estate
- The impact of sustainable practices on the future of building design and management
This episode is packed with expert insights on how the construction industry is evolving towards sustainability, and how you can be part of the change.
Links:
Tina Pailett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinapaillet/
CircoTrade: https://www.circotrade.com/
Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
The next episodes of Thriving Construction come straight from FutureBuild. Huge thanks to EcoCocoon. The space was great for chats, acoustics and, even better, well-being.
Speaker 2:Only 1% of the building materials that come out of a standard demolition are actually reused. The rest are downgraded. Some are recycled, but recycling can be quite carbon intensive and also resource intensive. So what we really want to do is change that 1% and bring it up. But the problem is that it's an unknown.
Speaker 2:When you're a real estate owner and you have a building that you don't know what you have and you don't know, you have to invest quite a bit in those materials to take it apart carefully, to have them gainfully reconditioned, maybe even recertified. That's investing a lot of money up front without knowing if there's actually a market for them. Will anyone want to use these materials? I may store them for three years and then end up putting them to a waste tree.
Speaker 2:So I decided that we needed to put into place something that works in many other industries, which is futures trading. It means that once you know what you have in your building. So what CircoTrade does is three steps Find out what you have in your building, so we inventory it how much is it worth on the resale market, but also how much carbon would you save by reusing that material and then you can futures trade it so you can find a buyer on the platform who wants to buy your material before you've even started deconstructing it. You have your exit strategy, you know who wants to buy it, you know how much they're willing to pay and you can actually invest in having those materials brought to market in the most optimal manner. So that's the whole idea of futures trading.
Speaker 1:Instead of it being a liability, which is I buy something now and it's got a lifespan and I'm getting rid of it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's turning it into an asset.
Speaker 2:Exactly. This is a new asset class. This is exactly how I feel it. It's futures trading. It's a trading platform for a new asset class which is future reused materials.
Speaker 1:So are we at a stage, then, in this new way of thinking, of something being worth one fee today and in the future, that fee or that value going up? So, a little bit like I would expect with a purchase of a stock or a share, or maybe a classic watch or a classic car or something like that, where I'm futures trading it, knowing that the value of this in pounds and pence or whatever currency you're using, is going to go up as opposed to down?
Speaker 2:You know what, when you talk about stocks, they go up and down. It will fluctuate. I think what we see today for reused materials is that it's very disparate. The market is small quantities. Most of those materials are sold as is. They're requalified, not recertified, so they have very little value. My vision, and the vision with circotray, is that that is changing and that will change immensely, as our materials, our primary resources, will become less and less available. We are going into a crisis of primary materials and therefore these materials that already exist, for both their carbon value but also their resource value, will start being more and more valuable. If you take something like steel, reused steel is actually already practically more valuable than new steel, why it's as strong, it's re-qualified, it's re-certified and it's low carbon, and that low carbon piece is a real added value.
Speaker 1:I think, also with reused steel, my understanding, just depending on when you're getting that steel from, if it's from kind of the 70s or before that the quality of that steel was actually of a higher grade generally than the modern steel now.
Speaker 2:You know what? There have been all sorts of stories around. You know, can you use pre-war steel? What I think is great is that more and more people are trying it. More and more professionals are actually going out there and questioning the fact that we're saying you cannot use pre-war steel. And actually a case study that shows, yes, technically it's feasible, economically feasible all of a sudden opens up a whole new opportunity, because there are a lot of buildings with pre-war steel in them. So, yes, I mean, this has immense value. But the thing is is that we need to practice. We need to get the legislation and the norms, the regulations, up to speed so that all sorts of materials can be reused.
Speaker 1:What organizations are you working with and how are they helping you to move forward to realize the vision that you have?
Speaker 2:Yes, I had a really great project at the end of last year that I did with British Land, huge investor in real estate and very much forward-looking and very keen on the circular economy, and we were able to create value with a strip out project actually managed to get replaced in about 15 different organizations, whether that be real estate developers and investors, architects planning a new project or charities and manufacturers of materials. So there was a wide take-up and I think that shows that there is an interest in the market. There's a huge interest actually in reusing materials when they are brought to market. Um, you know, in a way, that's, that's accessible and what have British lands said about that?
Speaker 1:I guess is they sound like a, a case study or a flagship client for you, a great client to have, absolutely. But what has been the process or the learning experience from their point of view and then also interested from your perspective into them as a client?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the main learnings is that it can be quite granular and time-consuming on site and there really needs to be a sort of a reuse guardian on site within the demolition or the deconstruction team that is there to coordinate sort of where do these materials go while they're being stored, before they get picked up? All of that logistics piece in reality is really important. But I think one of the most important learnings is that you need to plan in advance. The more you plan in advance of these materials, the more you can do investigations, the inventory up front. You have an inventory, you know exactly what the specification of those materials are, you know what they look like, you have them up on a platform. Takers can take a look at them, they can decide whether they're interested or not. And the more you do that in advance, the more likelihood of those materials not only creating value. Value is not an end in and of itself, but it's about having them reused.
Speaker 2:Let's take a light fixture. Okay, if you are taking apart a building and you have a couple hundred light fixtures of a certain type and you just ask your demolition contractor to take them down and then you say put them on a website and you say there are light fixtures available, who's interested? You probably will struggle to get people even just to come pick them up for free. Maybe they'll pay a pound or two in the best of cases and it'll be for DIY projects or smaller projects. But if those light fixtures are described in a way, they have their specification, they've been remanufactured, they have a guarantee. All of a sudden they're worth so much more and there will be a market that's so much more active. So this is the lessons learned is up front, much more um early on getting these things to to the market and canvassing the interest in it and ensuring that they're being re-qualified and reconditioned in a way that they can be gainfully reused I love that.
Speaker 1:I've just, I've just come. The thing that's come to mind for me now is it's all around the story that you're telling, and the earlier you can get that story and start to build that story, the more value is realized or released or identified yeah, yeah, no, absolutely absolutely I love that. Good. What is your, uh? What else? What else are you involved with?
Speaker 2:so I am very, very involved with a group that I co-founded last year when I was president of the RICS. I co-founded something called the Circular Dew Tank, and the Circular Dew Tank is all about shifting mindsets. It's about signaling to the market that there is demand for reused materials Okay, and we do that through. So this is a pluridisciplinary group. There's about 15 of us from all different walks of life within the industry. We have insurers, bankers, planners, bankers, planners, architects, engineers, real estate brokers you know, you name it.
Speaker 2:We're there to troubleshoot and to look at what are the issues that a pledger will face because we have pledgers, okay. So the idea is that real estate investors, developers, asset managers will pledge three simple things that they will look to use and reuse materials in their developments, they will look to identify reused materials and put them on the market for the deconstructions that they work on. And that they will share the metrics and the lessons learned. So it's quite simple and, at the same time, you know, what we'd like is to get enough pledgers to be able to say, listen, this can move the market. We have, you know, let's say, we get up to 30 billion assets under management that have pledged.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden that signals that there is demand for this, there's demand for reusing materials, and that's hugely impactful. And then, on the same side, all of the lessons learned, those case studies, as I was talking about earlier the pre-war steel case study these are case studies that can move a market. Talking about earlier the pre-war steel case study, these are case studies that can move a market Once it's been done, all of a sudden other developers, other real estate investors will say, well, my neighbor did this, why can't I? And this is where we're heading, trying to get that movement, what we call the reuse revolution.
Speaker 1:The thing that I'm wondering now is what advice you would give to leaders that are out there in the industry at the moment or people that want to be leaders. And the reason I'm asking you this question is because the conversations that we've had, not just on here but also before today you're incredibly humble here, but also, uh, but before today you're in, you're incredibly humble, um, and, and the experience that you have um you, you don't overstate that, but you've had some significant influence and significant leadership um with throughout your career and and, and that's the way that the trajectory is still moving for you, um, but but I'd like to really just ask if you could just kind of delve into some of the leadership principles that you have found has stood you in good stead that you would offer up as a way forward for other people that are either leaders or that have got aspirations to lead.
Speaker 2:I have several parts of an answer to it. I think the most important thing is to lead with your heart and to lead by doing. I feel really strongly that you need to walk the talk, so leadership for me is only possible in a space where I feel committed, where I feel that it's actually there is a greater good that I'm working towards and that's what boosts leadership. Um, it's not about managing people. It's not about managing people. It's not about managing outcomes. It's about bringing people around you to see the vision that you see and to help them realize their best talent in order to move towards that vision.
Speaker 1:That sounds really fuzzy sort of busy, sounds beautiful.
Speaker 2:But it's all about also listening to people, understanding where they're coming from, where they're heading. I do a lot of listening On this podcast. I do a lot of talking, but usually I'm much more in a listening mode and I find you learn a lot of listening. All right, on this, on this podcast, I'm doing a lot of talking, but usually I'm much more in a listening mode and I find you learn a lot from people by listening to this there's a couple of things you've touched on there that I really love um.
Speaker 1:One of them is about leadership and management being different and the connection to leadership, to listening and there being this um desire or conscious action about gathering people around you to help them see what you see or help them feel what you feel, which is different to management yeah. Management is. There's a process. This is what we're doing. These are the steps. This is your role. Go and do it and I'll tell you how well you're doing.
Speaker 2:Very true, very true. I think there is something really important in leadership, like I said, leading by example, but you can only do that if you really believe in what you're doing. So it's about having a passion in life, and that passion, for me, is trying to ensure that we have a better place for future generations. It's trying to ensure that we are responsible for what we're doing today, which is impacting future generations, and it's even impacting our own generation, and I'm talking about climate change essentially because, for me, that is the existential threat that we have today on our planet.
Speaker 1:Can you talk now about this group that you have around you as a leader? How do you filter those people that you need to have closest, those people that you need to listen to more, those people that you need to let go and encourage, or those people that you need to respectfully part ways from, because there is a misalignment with the passion that's in your heart and the passion that's in their heart? What have you found to be useful, uh, ways to to set that, to set those conditions I think you surround yourself with people.
Speaker 2:You can choose who you surround yourself with, and by choosing people from a diverse mindset and background. It doesn't mean choosing people who think exactly like you. That's no fun, it's not interesting and you end up with groupthink. What I don't want around me are, yes, men or, yes, women, and I don't want to always be talking to people that think exactly like I do and come from exactly the same background and education that I do. So there's one thing that I have, and even in this day and age of technology and social media, I have an open-door policy.
Speaker 2:What I mean by that is that I always try to find time to meet with people who solicit me on a topic that they're interested in and that's also of interest to me. I sometimes I waste my time, but sometimes it's when you least think that it leads to a really interesting finding, a really interesting connection. Connection and I think also, you know, the whole idea of one person leads to another person, to another person. There's all these interconnections. This is my very first time to FutureBuilt today, but I have run into, you know, umpteen people that I know from different parts of the industry, and when you run into one person who knows another person, who introduces you to a third person and, oh, what you're saying really rings a bell. You should meet so-and-so, and this is how you find that network of people that you actually develop and deliver with I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I'm, what I'm thinking here is, is ecosystem yeah and it's and, and what you're saying there is, we do have the choice of who we surround ourselves with. Effectively, we've got the choice of how we develop and cultivate our ecosystem. Uh, to enable us and others, I think to to grow and develop. Um, I love that. That's good. Yeah, good, um, is there anything else that that you would talk to? When it comes to leadership, I'm thinking now of younger people coming through that have aspirations. I think the way to be successful is to be a leader, the the way to have all of the financial resources that I want, or to travel, or to be connected to or have an impact, is to be a leader. What advice would you give to the younger people that aspire to lead?
Speaker 2:I would give the advice that it is very important to follow your passion, to be passionate about what you do.
Speaker 2:If your goal is to make money or to have influence, your work, life could be a very long, tedious experience and you risk not being very good at what you do if you have no passion for it. So that's the first piece of advice is follow your passion and if you don't have a passion, find one. The second piece of advice is you need to be very hardworking. Avoid being complacent, always driving yourself a step further, trying to go a little bit further than where you are. That's really important. I think that drive changes everything. And then, and I think finally, when you have the drive and you have the passion, then you need to surround yourself with people who share that drive and passion, and that means you're going to be happy at what you do, and being happy is going to mean that you do it with much less effort. Being happy is going to mean that you do it with much less effort. That's, I think that is the recipe for professional success in some ways, and personal success.
Speaker 1:I was going to say personal success as well, because the connection there is about how you feel and all the rest. So I love the point that you touched on as well with reference to just having a focus on, uh, specific outcomes like money and influence or power yeah can, does not always or seldom, leads to, uh, happiness, joy or connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that ecosystem, these attributes in leadership of, of humility, meekness, I think is another one as well these are great, great strengths that show how we can, along with other people, get to somewhere really well, and that's good. And it's also tied into circularity, um, as opposed to linear. So the linear element for me is very much you are doing this, I'm forcing this, this is happening because I'm the one in control, I'm the one with the power, and you have to do what I say, otherwise something really bad is going to happen and you don't want that really bad thing to happen. So that's linear. It starts and it has to end because eventually people are like I need to check out, because I can't live like this.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I mean, you know there's all sorts of management speak around this Leading from behind. I don't know. I don't know what I feel about leading from behind. I'm not sure that that's actually a thing. I don't know. I don't know what I feel about leading from behind. I'm not sure that that's actually a thing I don't know either. But yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know I don't have a modality or a model, that's clear in my mind that I think that is the only one. When you see other people and other people see you, and there's an alignment of what you are saying with reference to your passion, um, then, and and things like your work ethic and so on, yes, obviously, but the bit of your passion and then there's a connection there and it goes back to what you've experienced today is you've seen someone and then that sparks something off in their mind. Let me introduce you to someone else. And but that's the way that this whole circularity element works and the way that the world works in its in its truest and purest form, is that things?
Speaker 1:things come after us, and it's all connected um and and, and that's the way I think that that I really love the the, the area that you're working on in the construction industry is. Before I use this thing, let me just let other people know that eventually I'm going to be done with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just just to let you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you, do you want to tell us now and and let us know, and I just think that that concept is is just wonderful yes, yeah, yeah someone listening to you. Um, that resonates with what you're talking about. Where can they go to find out more about you and to get involved in the things that you are passionate about?
Speaker 2:um, so uh, thecular Dew Tank is a great spot to start out with, so we have a website circulardewtankcom. Quite easy. My LinkedIn profile I'm quite accessible, as I said, but I do think actually, for if you're interested in the circular economy and getting involved in working on a number of the work streams that we're running in the Circular Dew Tank, or you are an enterprise and this resonates with you and you want to pledge to be part of the Circular Dew Tank, then check it out on our website. Click on I'd like to join and we'll be in touch.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Well, we will just leave, I think, just with one final question, okay. So that final question is what thing can everyone do that will make a difference to the way that we see and interact with our buildings? So what's the one thing that everybody can do that will change the way for good, the way that we see and interact with our buildings?
Speaker 2:I would say that behind every building there is a team and there is a whole system and a whole host of people who are working to make that building function.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the most important things about changing the way you see the building that you work in, the building that you live in, is to understand that there is a whole team of people I'm not going to say professionals people that are there making that building run, and recognizing their role and their importance is key, and I think it changes the way you see a building when you understand how much work goes into managing the waste in a building.
Speaker 2:How much work goes into managing the waste in a building. You know, ensuring the maintenance of a building For me, the property and facility manager, is probably one of the most important keys in ensuring that a building lives up to its expectations, whether that be its energy performance, its comfort level, the health, healthy buildings. All of that really depends, of course, on how it was designed and built. But once it's designed and built, you can design and build a Ferrari, but if you don't know how to drive it, it's not going anywhere, you know. And so I think the driving of our buildings, the managing of our buildings is something that will change immensely the way you look at it.
Speaker 2:That's my thought.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I love that Again. Thank you very much for coming on the show. And you and we'll speak again soon. Yes, let's keep in touch. Thanks for watching to the end. I think that you'll like this, but before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you subscribed.