Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 66 You Have a Teaspoon of Plastic in Your Brain – Here's How It Got There
It may sound unbelievable, but this week we’re diving into the shocking reality that you could have a teaspoon of plastic in your brain at any given moment. In this episode of Thrive in Construction, Darren sits down with Chaline Church to explore the powerful connection between building materials and human health. Chaline, a passionate advocate for sustainable design, shares her journey from architecture to pioneering the use of Cradle to Cradle (C2C) certified materials in construction. They dive into the growing need for healthier, non-toxic materials in both commercial and residential spaces, discussing how these innovative solutions can reduce long-term costs while improving our wellbeing.
Chaline explains how C2C certification ensures that materials are safe, sustainable, and designed for reuse, and offers actionable advice for architects and designers looking to make healthier choices in their projects. With a focus on material health, circular design, and reducing environmental impact, this episode is a must-listen for anyone in the construction industry looking to create healthier, more sustainable spaces.
Don't miss this insightful conversation about the future of construction, the role of architecture in human health, and the benefits of using certified sustainable materials in building design.
Key Topics Discussed:
- The link between building materials and health
- How Cradle to Cradle certification works
- Sustainable alternatives to toxic materials like PVC and VOCs
- The economic and environmental benefits of using C2C certified materials
- Practical steps for transitioning to healthier materials in construction
Tune in now for a game-changing discussion on how the construction industry can lead the way in creating healthier, more sustainable built environments!
Links:
540 World LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/540-world/
540 World Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/540.world
540 World YouTube: @540world-globalcirculardes3
540 World Website: https://www.540.world/
Chaline's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaline-church-540world/
Chaline's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespacedesign/
Website: https://www.freespacedesign.co.uk/
https://darrenevans.komi.io/
The next episodes of Thriving Construction come straight from FutureBuild. Huge thanks to EcoCocoon. The space was great for chats, acoustics and, even better, well-being.
Speaker 2:So, statistically, for people who don't know, paint off gases for up to five years after it's dried. So you might buy cheap and cheerful paint and think, well, I've saved a few pounds, but you're actually breathing in VOCs, carcinogens, plasticizers, all sorts of nasties for up to five years after it's dried. And again, putting my health clinic hat on, we know that 40% of decorators in the UK get lung cancer, which is nearly one in two. So when you have those sobering statistics, you start realizing there's something seriously wrong with the compliance and with the levels of health of our materials that we are putting in our homes and our offices 40% 40%.
Speaker 2:That is huge. It's dismal. Why has that not?
Speaker 1:been picked up.
Speaker 2:It's well known in my industry. It's a well-known statistic and we've spoken to some of the biggest protagonists of toxic paint and their general answer again I'm oversimplifying, but their general answer is well, we don't need to do it just yet. Our brand has got a lot of goodwill, people think our paints are fine and we're going to just carry on doing this and more or less until we have to change.
Speaker 1:So this is really concerning, then. So what brands do I need to stay away from?
Speaker 2:Wow, let me put it this way there are two brands in the UK that are both cradle to cradle certified One is Keim and one is Grafenstone. Those are the only two paints that I would specify as an interior architect.
Speaker 1:And those two that you've mentioned are not high street brands.
Speaker 2:You can get them on the high street.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm saying is when I go into DIY places and places where I normally go and buy paint, they are not the ones that jump out on the shelf at me.
Speaker 2:They're not the ones that jump out at you, no, but they have got some good. For example, graphenstone has got some good relationships with distribution, for example, as far as I know, in brewers, and I think they're also in the Dulux centres, because Dulux carries additional brands other than themselves. But once again, the only two brands I'd recommend is Chime and Graphenstone, and particularly Graphenstone because of the fact that it absorbs CO2. So for me, there are those fundamental changes that are easy to do and it's not complicated. Graphenstone you can still paint with a brush, with a roller or with a spray. It's not rocket science, you're just swapping. And if you've got a paint that absorbs CO2, has no toxins, no VOCs, no carcinogens, no plasticizers, and when it dries it goes back to stone like lime, it's just brilliant. So Cradle to Cradle, certified.
Speaker 2:Looks at the material health. They look at five different aspects, so we'll get into that, I'm sure, a bit later, but the first one is material health. So the very, very first one, which is why I'm so passionate about it, among the other amazing categories Look at material health and look at the parts per million. So all the pigments, all the binders, all the toxins, all the processing, so there's literally no chemicals in here whatsoever. There's nothing that is bad to breathe and as long as you put a nice breathable layer could be clay, could be graphene, stone paint, which is fully breathable, you can do layering just, and your home can look like any other home, but it's it's got acoustic value. You can feel that in here. It's got thermal value. You can feel the warmth in here and it's absolutely brilliant. It's a brilliant material.
Speaker 2:So this is one of many. You've got another one on the on the top which looks like troll deck, which is also cradle to cradle certified. So I think I'm I'm sitting in a booth that's probably one of the first spaces I've been in. That's nearly all cradle-to-cradle certified materials. It's amazing. They've got 75,000 products that are now cradle-to-cradle certified. There was an achievement of 95% cradle-to-cradle certified materials in the New World Trade Center, the ZIN project in Belgium, and so they used some urban mining, so basically reuse of products in the local area, and the rest was cradle to cradle certified.
Speaker 1:so they have created incredibly healthy environments for their staff and for generations going forward, which is brilliant so where are we when it comes to the accessibility of cradle to cradle products, and the reason I'm asking that is primarily to do with the large developers and house builders. They need to have products at their fingertips so that they can build at scale, because the government have set really ambitious housing targets. So what would you, yeah, where would you advise or what would you say in regard to the availability of these types of products?
Speaker 2:Well, darren, that's an easy one. I'm pleased to say, most of the brands that are cradle-to-cradle certified are big global brands, so scale is not an issue. So, for example, cicasonafil it's a roofing membrane. Cica is the biggest in the world when it comes to membranes. So the short answer is it's a non-issue. It's really a non-issue. It's really a non-issue.
Speaker 2:Some of the newer brands and some of the SMEs that are coming up and just becoming cradle-to-cradle certified will typically take one of the three different certification options. They might do material health first, then they might do circularity and then they might do full scope. So some of them may just have the first. I don't want to call it entry level, but the first levels of certification. But yes, it's fully available. For example, akoya wood. They are, I think, roughly 20%, maybe more than 20% of the market now in the UK for windows and doors because of all their amazing qualities, and I can go on. I could probably talk the whole podcast just on that material. It doesn't warp, it doesn't twist, termites hate it. So it's incredible for things like outdoor applications, facades, decks you literally don't need to coat it.
Speaker 2:So there's no horrible toxic coatings going on, there's no maintenance. Those coatings don't end up in your landfill or in your water or in your soil and because it doesn't warp or twist because of the acetylation process, it doesn't absorb any moisture. So that's why it's so stable. So it means that your sash windows, your doors, you don't have to sand them, recoat them every couple of years. It's a no brainer. I've just done it on a huge, big gate, big 5.6 meter gate. What it meant for me as a designer I was able to use the minimal amount of stainless steel for coastal development, so I literally had three tiny little struts like and gates is literally all a coir wood, fully stable.
Speaker 1:I never need to touch it at last, my lifetime and, and that's also on a common coast right, so a coastal development. So, in terms of the amount of water in the air and the elements that are that are, and the elements that are intense on the coast, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's designed for docks and for yacht decks and for cladding. It's designed to hit the exteriors and you can use it in bathrooms. It's one of the only woods you can use in a bathroom. That is, I'd like to call it bulletproof. It's just amazing. So we did the's first um thames estuary fender with made out of a coir wood, and we've been testing it for five years and it's a veritable jungle so it's completely healthy. All the little microbes. And we did, we did a regenerative design one. So above water we did spaces and undulations for seedlings, and below water we did things for crustaceans and all sorts of fully regenerative design fender first in the world and it's absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1:So now then, the other objection to this may be around costs. Well, I'd love to do that, but it just costs x amount more. Is that true? Is cost a barrier?
Speaker 2:I would say cost is a barrier in the industry. It's a very perceived barrier, but I would like to say that that's a myth that needs to be just torn down. If I bring back the example of the Koya gate that I did, we were looking at a different material, another wood, in comparison. So the local wood they're looking at is a comparison and that was a particular cost and we worked out that needed to be replaced every five years and it needed a coating toxic coating every two years and sometimes even less than that.
Speaker 2:With coasts In South Africa, you have not just the sand and the sea but you also have the sun. So wood is Expanded yeah, it really can be quite affected by the sun in a negative way. So we looked at the two and the replacement costs over time, for a less expensive wood at point of purchase would have ended up being way more expensive over the longevity of that gate. So, when it comes to buildings, if a person is using a really intelligent cost structure and they're looking at the whole life of that building or the whole life of that gate, or the whole life of that gate or the whole life of that wall or whatever structure that they are talking about. That is really how to look at it. If you're looking at points of purchase, then yes, you're going to probably pay a little bit more when you buy a home. Are you going to buy the cheapest roof and now you're going to have to replace it every two years? Or are you going to buy a roof that you know you're not going to have to replace?
Speaker 1:So I think the reality when it comes to people buying a home is they don't even think about how often they would need to repair it, because they would just assume that it's always going to be there, or they would just think well, the thing that I'm interested in at the moment is the size of the rooms, the view from outdoors, the location, but I think for someone like a social housing provider, then absolutely that would be something high on their agenda.
Speaker 2:It is high on their agenda. We actually had a really good meeting with a social housing provider not too long ago and one of the sanitary wear items that we suggested was a tap mixer. That was 26p more than what they currently pay for a mixer. However, instead of having to replace that entire mixer every couple of years, buying a cheap and cheerful mixer, you only have to replace a small little washer part inside that mixer, so it outlasts its competitors and it ends up being way less expensive over time. So there are so many savings. Way less expensive over time, so there are so many savings.
Speaker 2:And if I bring it back to health, not just costs, there was a really interesting metric that came out of I believe it was KPMG. So with Venlo, they had typical linear products in their environment. They knew exactly what the sick days were of their staff. It had been there for a long time and you know what paint they'd used, etc. Etc. When they had done an entire retrofit using healthy paint and healthy materials all Cradles, certified materials the reduction in sick days were I think it was 2.4 days per person on average for the years. They quantified that they saved 3 million in year one.
Speaker 2:So your savings are not necessarily just points of purchase.
Speaker 2:If you're saving on operational costs like human costs, which are usually the biggest cost when you're running a company or an office, it's a no-brainer. So there was another similar scenario where a developer was developing to sell low-cost residential units and they had their particular template low-cost, low-cost, low-cost and a few nice elements to hit the aesthetic bar. And what they did is they used cradle-to-cradle certified options and non-cradle-to-cradle certified options and they offered the buyers the choice. They said it's going to cost you I think it was $2,000 or $3,000 more or you can buy the cheap and cheerful one. Most people 80% went for the cradle-to-cradle certified option, paid the two or three percent more and they'd actually built an extra profit. So they made 80% more on the cradle-to-cradle certified housing. So there are a lot of ways of looking at this. It's not just the cost of the material. If you can accrue a better profit or, in case of an owner-managed scenario for offices, if you can keep the costs of your staff down and save, that it's a no-brainer.
Speaker 1:The other thing that was in my mind as well are places like hospitals and places where people go to get better. So those hospitals might be A&E or wards, or it may be like a psychiatric. I'm wondering how clued in they are on cradle to cradle and on focusing on the materials that are actually being used in these buildings to support and help the ends that they're trying to work to with helping people to recover from injury or disease.
Speaker 2:Darren, that is horrible, the worst of the bunch, because a lot of the hospitals are on a very small budget and a lot of them are repeating the same sort of materials they've used over the last set of decades. When I studied optimizing human health, that was one of the case studies that I looked at was hospitals and, to be fair, they have quite a rigorous set of rules about what materials they may or may not use. Because they can't use tiles in many spaces because of grouting and bacteria, they've got to use a lot of easy, clean surfaces and no spaces between surfaces as far as possible. So they do use things like PVC, which is a neurotoxin. It affects six of our bodily functions. It affects our brain, affects our heart, affects our liver, affects neuro affects and they will use a PVC in hospitals. Now there are alternatives to PVC, but a lot of people don't even know that it's a toxin. So the short answer to that is in hospitals. It's actually quite dismal when I walk around and I see PVC, this and that, and we know the direct opposite is the most helpful for rehabbing clients and can shave up to three days off a client's time in a hospital.
Speaker 2:Most of it is healthy natural materials, particularly wood, stone paint that has a matte, almost a lime finish, if you like. It's quite interesting because the evidence isn't quite sure about why all of these things are true. But if you walk around and you touch something that looks like wood but you feel it and it's a laminate and it's a plastic, it doesn't support our immune system to get well, and I can't tell you more than that because they don't really know why. So it could be just that that's ingrained in us, that that's part of how we we expect to touch wood and it's got to feel like wood. We expect to touch stone. It's got to feel like stone. But things like natural light, plants, flowers, the smells of natural plants and flowers. So it's a whole range of things.
Speaker 2:It's not just olfactory, it's tactile, which is very, very powerful. The tactile one is very, very important and it literally affects our wellness days. But no, you can go into hospitals and you'll look around. You'll see plastic paints, off-gassing toxins, you'll see perspex. I went into a children's hospital and and they just had done a huge big redo and I was literally doing my thesis on all this and there was just toxins everywhere and literally I could have tried colors, that they were saying oh, the kids like colors. Well, actually, yes, they might like colors, but if you know that's actually going to disrupt their immune system, which is already compromised, which is why they're in hospital, why would you do that?
Speaker 1:So it seems like, from what you're saying, then, that the spaces in hospitals are actually making people sick.
Speaker 2:I would say they're adding to the negative effects on compromised immune systems. They are certainly not helping Hard to quantify. Does that add days on, what is that effect? But I asked this question of a chemist. There's only about five toxicological chemists in the world that are really up there and do cradle-to-cradle certified work Brilliant people and I asked them a similar question and what they said is the range of toxins that we breathe and ingest on a daily basis is huge. We literally live in petri dishes of toxins and those combinations of toxins. They are unable to test that. They're so, so rife.
Speaker 1:So the mix, so the individual? You can test that, but the impact of the mixture, that's impossible to test at the moment.
Speaker 2:Inquantifiable, absolutely. But all they can see is the outcomes. So the outcomes is that diseases on a rapid rise and in certain population groups certain diseases arise. That is increased and there are guesses and there are studies out which have some answers that speak to those problems and those outcomes.
Speaker 2:But the bottom line is we are indoors, especially in urban environments, around 90% of the time. So if you're breathing air, there's off-gassing from carpets, from formaldehyde, from OSB boards and materials that are built into our sofas and into our furniture, all the fire retardancies that are on most of our soft burnishings. All of this kind of stuff is around us constantly. I mean, I read this morning that tea, literally drinking tea the tea leaves absorb a huge amount of the metal toxins. The tea leaves will actually pull out a lot of the toxic metals. So drinking tea is just, you know it's a small thing to do, but it's actually a brilliant thing to do.
Speaker 2:So it's really important to actually think about the materials that we use, not only for our own selfish reasons, for my body, for your body, for our kids' bodies, but also generationally, because most people don't stay in one home their entire lives. There's a transition and in places like leisure and commerce. They transition their interiors usually on average six years. In London there's a whole new interior that's being designed, so for these spaces, I just think that you have a personal obligation. I think it's negligent if you use toxic materials when there are alternatives.
Speaker 1:And I think as well, it's about knowing what those alternatives are. So you've mentioned that there's an alternative to PVC, but I didn't know that. What is the alternative to PVC?
Speaker 2:There are actually lots of alternatives to UPVC. Upvc is one alternative to PVC.
Speaker 2:So, for example, in poles and piping for sewerage you can use UPVC. Upvc is one alternative to PVC. So, for example, in poles and piping for sewerage you can use UPVC. There's some brilliant companies like Rehau and they've made some pole products. So Hydro and Rehau are two that come to mind that have made some really great alternatives. And then there's a whole range of flooring, which can be many different materials that are a direct, healthy option to be PVC. I mentioned C cosinophil earlier. They have made a roof membrane. Roof membranes are typically PVC. They've made it out of a combination of rubber and polyurethane and a few other mixes, but it's almost like a rubber compound, so fully waterproof, fully healthy. If that abrades which PVC does abrade it's like a polymer, it's like a plastic, it abrades, it gets into the air, it gets into the soil, it gets into our lungs. Do you know how much plastic you have in your brain currently?
Speaker 1:Right now.
Speaker 2:Would you like to know?
Speaker 1:Tell me please.
Speaker 2:The average brain has an average of about a teaspoon of plastic.
Speaker 1:And how did it get there?
Speaker 2:Mostly breathing and eating. So if you take plastic lunchboxes, if you take takeaways in plastic containers commonly you know, by takeaway sandwich in a plastic wrapper so it comes usually in through ingestion and inhalation I guess I can't get it out of my brain once it's in there, is there?
Speaker 1:there's not a way for the body to get it out of my brain?
Speaker 2:I can't answer that question because I actually don't know, but as far as I know, there's in there it's in there and the liver, for example, does manage to flush a lot out. The kidneys do manage to flush a lot out. The kidneys do manage to flush a lot out. So while it comes in, it collects in certain places and other places are able to flush that more.
Speaker 1:And so do we know what the effect of plastic being in the brain is linked to, or what is the effect of having plastic in the brain.
Speaker 2:I can't speak to having, because those papers aren't even written yet. The litium in the one I read today about that doesn't. They said they do not know. So this is a new study.
Speaker 1:They know that it's there. They know that it's there. They don't know the effect yet.
Speaker 2:They don't know the effect in humans yet.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Studies have been done. There's a recent one looking at birds that did biopsies on something like 352 species of birds. I could be wrong with numbers, I'm dyslexic, so everyone listening to this, do your homework, check my numbers, um, but I'm pretty. It's pretty accurate. They did a test on all of these birds. They did a small lung biopsy in either one gram or 10 grams, which either way it's significant one or two teaspoons or less than there were 452 pieces of microplastics and nanoplastics in a small little biopsy piece. So we're talking about something that big or that big.
Speaker 2:Now, so the fact of the matter is plastic is everywhere. The tests that they've done on animals to see the effects of the plastic have all been negative. It's disrupted their reproductive system. It's disrupted their heart conditions. So, for example, in fisheries and fishery hatcheries where they've done tests like this, the fish come out size decreased, heart issues, reproduction systems off the charts, messed up. So we can only extrapolate that on all the tests they've done on all the different types of animals, it's been negative. So I would suggest there's no reason it's going to be positive in our system. It's probably not going to be positive in our system. It's probably not going to be inert in our system.
Speaker 2:We've got very robust systems, but we know from again, from extrapolating the health and the way things are moving. We should not be doing this. We should not be having toxic materials on the planet. So, going back to cradle to cradle, they have a philosophy, which is a design philosophy based on three principles, and the two parameters they use for materials is that healthy materials must stay in two cycles either must stay in a biological cycle if we're needing it, if we have a technosphere or technical cycle like this would fall into a technical product cycle that should be designed for reuse. So, um, there've been several companies that have done electrical goods. There are car parts, like Zeta for doing reusable clutch plates for cars. It's absolutely brilliant what companies are now doing out of C2C certified materials.
Speaker 2:And with a design like that, we literally can have a totally healthy environment.
Speaker 1:Do you know, one of the things I've been thinking of is just the word sustainability recently has just felt really hollow. I say recently, I'm probably talking more 10 years, it's just felt hollow and overused. And the word and the phrase net zero is as well. The concept of cradle to cradle or circularity, I think at the moment feels a lot better for me.
Speaker 2:FutureBuild actually did a really interesting study about three, four months ago, possibly, looking at all the words around sustainability and eco or sustainability all of these things green used to be really positive. People used to go, wow, that's fantastic, I'm going to buy this paint that's got a green leaf on it, or this paint that says eco or something like that. The opposite has now happened. So there's a 47% element of mistrust now when you use those words. So if you slap that on a tin now, you're going to 47%. The people going, hmm, they immediately have a negative connotation, which is really sad actually, and that's due to greenwashing. That is just directly due to poor marketing and dishonest representation of your products. So if I go back to Cradle to Cradle Certified which I haven't really explained, I guess, so maybe I should explain that now. So Cradle to Cradle Certified is an innovation framework for improving products. So it helps a product innovate to become planet positive and impact the planet positively, either in the technical sphere or the biosphere. And what's really powerful about that and unique about Cradle to Cradle Certified is also a certificate. So once you've done all of that work to innovate, that could take 15 years. Some of the products have taken 15 years to innovate, some less, but many have taken years to do the R&D. When they complete the cycles of innovation, they get a Cradle to Cradle Certificate, which is called Cradle to Cradle Certified. So it's a framework and it's a certificate. But what's unique about it is it looks at material health to parts per million, as I said, all the material ingredients, pigments, dyes, to the atomic level. So this is not a desktop. I'm going to just thumb psych and just say yeah, no, I think my jump is absolutely fine, can't do that. This is boots on the ground in factories testing everything. So it's really brilliant because it is third-party verified, assessed and then certified on those on the different levels. So you can't, it's not, you can't be greenwashed. So when you have a c2c certified product, it's, it's, it's the only one I would say that I would recommend because you can hand on heart, go sure, it's materially healthy and it's built for circularity. So there's nine different points for circularity alone. But part of that is it's enabled through design to have a next use cycle. So they look at material health, they look at circularity, they look at water and soil, not just if that ends up post-use in incineration or the bottom of your swing pool or your dog gnaws on it or it ends up in the ocean. They look at all use and post-use scenarios. It's healthy for water and soil. They also look at clean air and climate protection.
Speaker 2:So bundled in that is your CO2, but also all your other greenhouse gases. Some people don't know about methane. That's actually possibly more of that is your CO2, but also all your other greenhouse gases. Some people don't know about methane. That's actually possibly more of a problem than CO2 itself. So all of that is looked at as well as social fairness, which is the fifth category. So there's no slavery in the system. There's no toxins in the system. It's built to last and it's built to stay in its loops. So whether it's a closed loop cycle for technical or a healthy biosphere cycle, all of these products are built to impact this generation and next generation positively. So it's a futuristic scenario and it's continuously improving. So if we find out there's a new hazardous material, cradle to cradle of the first to put that on their hazardous lists. Their list of hazardous materials is way above and beyond compliance, way above and beyond all the international lists of hazardous materials and including government standards as well big daddy across the world so someone listening to this now may feel really overwhelmed.
Speaker 1:I've I've just been given all of this information. I've realized I need to change and I want to change, but I don't know where to start. Can you just offer them a place just for them to start, if they want to make some changes and improve?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So I'm going to suggest three easy access points. One is on the 540 World website. So 540, numerically 540.world is a free download which has a lot of the UK cradle-to-cradle certified materials that are available here. It's got a number, it's got a website and it's got an email. So super easy to matchmake your desire to find a material in the UK. Bear in mind, there's 75,000 products globally. The other place you can go is to the Cradle to Cradle Products Innovation Institute and hit the product registry icon or tab and there you'll find all the certificates. Slightly harder to navigate because they have the certificates, not the product. So you have to then look at the certificate and look at the products and match. Make what you're looking for Slightly harder for architects and designers probably not so hard.
Speaker 2:And the third area is increasingly we're seeing very intelligent digital tools and materials libraries absorbing cradle-to-cradle certified and highlighting them. So, for example, if you look at Modesta, they've got cradle-to-cradle certified materials in there. If you look at MyAppSciClear, if you look at First Planet and if you look at Reba's big library that's now called NDS Source, they have a filter that actually you can filter sustainability or you can filter products under Cradle to Cradle certified, so you can go in and look for a particular product and if it's in there I know Akoya is in there Wood, we mentioned that earlier and you can find Growers in there. They were the sanitary tap that I mentioned earlier. A lot of them are. So there's three easy access points and that those are free for architects and designers as well I love that.
Speaker 1:Thank you the work that you've been involved with.
Speaker 1:I know that we could, or at least I could talk to you about for hours and, um, I find it really fascinating and really useful. Um, I find it empowering as well, because it just helps to to know and understand the alternatives that are out there, and so I think we we need to have another catch up again, um, to talk about some things in in more detail. But I'm really glad that I'm able to spend time with you here at future build um, and I'm really grateful that you had that dream. I'm grateful that you had that calling and uh, and that you've answered it. I think there are are so many people that are called to do things or that know that they should be doing things, but then they just don't do it, and so I'm grateful that you've answered that call and that you're moving forward with that. I know that you've got a supportive husband and family and a team around you that support and help you in that as well, so you know my gratitude is with them as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I'll support and help you in that as well. So you know, my, my gratitude is is with them as well, absolutely so. I'll say thank you as well. Thank you for those that are listening and um, don't be daunted. There really are lots of amazing solutions, and cradle to cradle certified is one of them. It's not the magic bullet, but certainly for material health, for buildings, I would say it is the best of the bunch thanks for coming on the show. It's a pleasure, thank you.
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