Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 70 Only 13 Staff Run 90 Train Stations: What Construction Can Learn from Copenhagen

• Darren Evans

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How digital innovation is transforming construction. In this episode of Thrive in Construction, Darren sits down with Marek Suchocki, a digital specialist and construction industry veteran, to explore how technology is reshaping the future of construction.

From the power of digital twins and BIM (Building Information Modelling) to the importance of structured data, Marek shares his journey from site engineer to digital evangelist. Discover how construction professionals at all levels can use digital tools to work smarter, improve project outcomes, and contribute to a more sustainable built environment.

Whether you're a construction manager, civil engineer, architect, or just passionate about the built environment, this episode is packed with insights on the digital future of construction.

Links:

Marek's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suchocki/
Autodesk LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/autodesk/
Autodesk Website: https://www.autodesk.com/uk/products?cjdata=MXxZfDB8WXww&AID=10994792&PID=2016554&SID=jkp_EAIaIQobChMI1ODwme7FjQMVVZ1QBh3PRB_qEAAYASAAEgJmQfD_BwE&cjevent=f52f34553ba611f0809000430a18b8fa&affname=2016554_10994792
Darren Evans Consultancy: https://darren-evans.co.uk/
Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/

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Speaker 1:

The next episodes of Thriving Construction come straight from FutureBuild. Huge thanks to EcoCocoon. The space was great for chats, acoustics and, even better, well-being.

Speaker 2:

I think digital twins are kind of a bit of a buzz at the moment, as is artificial intelligence, ai, machine learning. I think these are all consequences of applying a digital workflow. So where I've come from is the CAD computer aided design and drafting to bim building, information modeling. So modeling and objects, which I think is the real foundations. And as soon as you start working in an object approach, you are now providing the capability to grab different data, because we're talking about things, not lines and arcs, and that structured data, which this enables, means we can add material costs, we can take off volumes, areas, because that's just a consequence of the approach we can count how many things are in there, we can replace things quickly. We say we'll swap that window for another window, because initially we had a generic window, now we've got to have a real window. And then, as you build up more and more comprehensive models, then you go well, what can we do with that after the project's gone?

Speaker 2:

And certainly we can look at those digital twins, because a digital twin can be a geometric, visual representation of a physical ass, but it has to be accurate, you know so. So I think having the model enables the digital twin and the digital twin then enables connection to other data resources, so energy performance, for example, or cost of operations you know the maintenance costs of something. So a digital twin can represent the physical. And one of the other opportunities is actually even before the thing is built is you can simulate, simulate. You can both simulate the construction of the thing, so how is it going to be assembled? But how might it perform in the real? So if we can do this more and more, then again, hopefully, we're going to mitigate problems because we'll have tested it in the virtual, which is a much safer place to do it than in the real and so, when you're looking at things with that, with that lens, how specifically do you think that the improvements within the construction industry will happen through the digital?

Speaker 1:

and then, off the back end of that, what barriers do you see that are there at the moment that need to be either pushed to the side or overcome, or even knocked down?

Speaker 2:

so I think, if we let's look at the what's the opportunities for the industry, I think there's an inevitability that we're all going to be working in a much more digitized manner. Um, it's already becoming, uh, not optional in many other parts of our lives. You know, we've seen the huge disruption, even like saying the televisions that we were, you know, tv viewing. Um, we've seen the kind of failure of the video rental companies that all of us would have used in the 80s. So the blockbusters thought they had a firm business. But netflix, which started off as a postal video service, or the dvd service, realized that they could go digital streaming, you know. And now everybody's subscribing to, whether it's netflix, uh, apple, disney, amazon prime, you know, or just using iplayer and itv player and all that that Everybody's subscribing to, whether it's Netflix, apple, disney, amazon Prime, or just using iPlayer and ITV player and all that. So the way we consume media has changed and it will continue to innovate, but it's going to be digital.

Speaker 2:

Nobody's going to go back to having video cassette players. I know there's a bit of people like their LPs. Now We've got their vinyl revival, you know. But that that's the kind of it's not going to be the most bark if no, no, I know, and I like it as well, you know, because it's a bit, it's a bit uh, um, uh legacy. It's got. It's got something nice about that tangible feel of these things and I certainly remember as a child, looking at record covers because they used to be amazing record covers in the 70s and 80s that you'd buy it because it looks cool. It had nothing to do with the music, but it was part of the buying experience. So, yeah, there will always be, I think, a space for that. But the vast majority of us will be streaming music, streaming TV.

Speaker 2:

So why not stream data for construction? You know whether you're a tradesperson who wanted to buy toilets to fit in because you're a plumber, well, can I stream? Where can I buy it? Which local builder's merchant's got the best deals? Or who have I got a relationship with, who can supply on time at the right place?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's already happening, but it's just going to become more and more the natural way of working and as you go into the project management, the construction management sphere, of course, giving and applying digital tools gives you great confidence that you've thought things through and then, if you can then link that again to the models of the design. You can do that simulation I talked about. Why wouldn't you simulate it and build it in the virtual before you can screw it up in the physical? So you know, I I think this is just a natural trajectory that we're going to all follow um, and particularly for the larger projects. I mean, I'm not suggesting that every house extension is going to have a a full 3D model and digital twin. But part of me says but why wouldn't you? Because it makes sense.

Speaker 1:

So the desire that Bill Gates had was to put a computer or a PC on everybody's desk. Yeah, Back then when he came up with that, that was not in anyone's mind, really, that desire. So why not have a digital twin for an extension or a small?

Speaker 2:

Well, of course, yeah, I mean my company, autodesk. You know, we often suggest that we democratize technology, by which we mean that we make it accessible to anyone. So, even if you are just a jobbing builder or a local architect doing house extensions, why shouldn't you use these digital tools? The funny thing is that, of course, there is a small investment and a learning curve to overcome, and you've learned how not to do it. You're then actually on this continuous improvement where you will deliver more effectively, more efficiently. You can then spread your skills.

Speaker 2:

So, if you're an architect and you design a house extension and you do it in a model-based way, you can start bolting on other services because you can actually say well, I can actually do a structural analysis, or I can send it to the engineer for them to do a structural analysis, or I can do a computational fluid dynamics to show how this will perform in the event of a fire, which is obviously a great concern. But I can actually then prove to the fire risk assessors no, no, no, we've tested that and we've installed the right materials to suppress. But we can also simulate the evacuation for the residents of this thing. Um, and why wouldn't you then simulate the construction with a contractor, and because actually all these things aren't they're not freebies, but they're natural um outputs or opportunities that come from working in this digital manner. Um, and then I I was actually on the panel earlier here at future build, when I did say something else is that, for me, I'm I'm an actually lazy person, by which I mean I don't want to work harder, I want to work smarter.

Speaker 2:

So most of these digital solutions allow us to do things quicker, hopefully easier and hopefully better as well. So again it, to me it's a no-brainer, rather than saying, oh well, we always did it like this, so we should carry on doing it like this, um, but but I'm not suggesting that we should reduce quality. I think that's something we need to protect but that's interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

that you've gone there with your thought pattern is just because I want it easier. Then I need to kind of just clarify that. I'm not saying that we need to cut corners. So, yeah, ease equates to cut corners. So it's easier now for me to travel to france than it would have been 100 years ago, than it would have been 200 years ago, but I'm safer now to travel to france than I would have been 100 years ago and definitely 200 years ago. Not only is it easier, but it's also safer. Yeah, so it's interesting that that the fault pattern there for you at that moment and and and this is common right, this is why I'm bringing it, this is why I'm bringing it up is that when we think of ease, we think of reduced, or we're afraid of reducing quality or safety or outcome or reliability, as opposed to improving it. But surely that's the whole ease wrapped up together, because if you do it and you cut corners and it's unreliable, it then becomes harder.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, you know, I think often we associate ease with cheaper.

Speaker 2:

That's right know, I think often we associate ease with cheaper. That's right. You know um, and I think it was john glenn, when he was, when he came down after doing a first orbit in in um one of the earlier I think it was apollo missions or or predecessors that they said oh, you know what? What did it feel like being up in space? And he went. Well, it was great going around in a capsule um built by the lowest bidder, you know, because there was this fear that it was done on the cheap and it was being put at risk.

Speaker 2:

But I I fully agree that actually, if we can be innovative and I think innovation is the perhaps the better way to describe this and can and put in all those considerations around safety, quality, competence and delivery, you know which our industry needs. We need to have competent people doing work. Then you'll still have the confidence that this is good, but it might have been done quicker, hopefully increasingly cheaper and safer. So you know we shouldn't cut corners, but it doesn't mean we have to keep doing things the old way you know, so there, there is a need to do that.

Speaker 2:

I think the other thing is that we need to attract new people into our industry. Our industry has a very traditional perspective, uh perception. You know it's it's for angry men swearing at each other in muddy boots, but it's a potential for anyone, all genders, uh, all denominations. You know anyone could come into our industry, and if you have digital tools as one of the things you could go into, then it should hopefully appeal particularly to younger generations, who maybe are also motivated and stimulated by slightly different drivers. They're not like mercenaries just trying to earn the best money.

Speaker 2:

Some of them are saying you know, I would like to save the planet. You know we're in a perhaps perilous state, that the climate is changing and I know some global leaders don't believe it, but it is happening. And those young people say well, where is the best place you're going to change the climate? It's not going to be sitting outside of school and complaining with a proclacard. It'll be working as a civil engineer or as a drainage specialist, designing and installing the things that will reduce carbon, that will allow water to be stored and moved at the right time rather than dumping effluent into rivers. You know, this is where you could really make a mark and have a completely rewarding career could really make a mark and have a completely rewarding career.

Speaker 1:

So where do you see the biggest blockers at the moment for, uh, this, this progress in where we could be or where we need to be as an industry?

Speaker 2:

um, well, I think you mentioned risk and we're very risk averse. We rely on the proven old way of doing stuff and we also have a bureaucracy that gets in the way. So, whether that's planning regulations, contract forms that are, that's again, that's the way we've always done it. So. But if those contract forms ask for a traditional deliverable, like a drawing rather than a model, then you go well, I've got to do the drawing anyway, so I might as well just do drawings and not bother with the model stuff because I've got a double hander. So so there's a kind of uh, I might as well just do the the older way. Um, so I think that we need to change some of those commercial relationships so that we ask for the right things.

Speaker 2:

Um, and I think increasingly, as we get see the impact of the building safety act, the golden thread legislation, um, the panel I was on was for the information management initiative. That will hopefully get more government support to to lay down some higher level expectations, and that'll be a good thing. Actually, I wanted to share one example, which is I was in copenhagen late last year and we were having a rail event and, as part of the event, myself and a few others got to visit copenhagen metro and they'd recently, in the summer, opened a new extension to line four. So they've got four metro lines around copenhagen and we visited their control center, um, which controls the entire 90 stations. I think they have uh, you know forgive me I've got that wrong, but but you know a good number of stations around copenhagen on these four lines and the new lines are fully automated. They've got four people in the control center. They've got cameras across all stations, but they only monitor the key ones, or at each station there's a place where a member of the public or one of their staff could kind of contact them and say look, you need to see something's happening here, so they can operate very remotely. As I say, we have half a dozen or four people watching cameras. So the control centre is sparsely populated here. But all the trains are automated Now, without upsetting people.

Speaker 2:

In this country there are people who would say, oh no, you can't have a train without an operative on it. No, no, these trains are completely automatic. They run at a 90 second interval. They have a 98% or so reliability. The public love it, the public just trust. They get on, they get off, it all works, it just works.

Speaker 2:

And I think they said that if there was like an event, like a concert going on, they would just lay on some extra trains because they can change the spacing between the trains, um, but the bit that really got me was when they asked us to. You know that we, we now have um stewards I think they called him so they've got stewards who patrol the network. So, rather than having a single person on every train, they've had a bunch of stewards and now it's just, you know how many do you think we've got but covering these four lines and these 90 stations, and I I think I said something along like 50 people, I think, um, and I said 13 people where these people have got freedom to choose their job, but their job is helping old grannies, getting on and off, picking up litter, alerting if there's an incident, shutting carriage doors if they're not working.

Speaker 2:

they have a very broad remit and these people have a really stimulating job and they go where they want, they do the thing and I think that is a real trust in both the technology but also the people. So people's jobs have grown because the technology allows us to have driverless trains, and I think that will take a while for it to hit home here, but it struck me as just a beautiful example of something you know. You talk about public transport. Wow, this is public transport par excellence.

Speaker 1:

Where do you think that the UK appeared to be behind places like Copenhagen and other European cities in this area specifically, and the same as well, I think, with things like Passive House, or even when you're looking at Cradle to Cradle, you start to also look at circular economy and just this whole bit. It seems as though we lack them.

Speaker 2:

It's an interesting question because I actually think we're a very innovative nation. You know, if you look at like Formula One, pretty much all the cars, with the exception of, like Ferrari and one or two others, are heavily designed and even built in this country. So we've got excellence in automotive and yet we can't build cars. So it's not that we don't have the capability can't build cars, so it's not that we don't have the capability. I think we sometimes struggle at scale, that we don't necessarily practice what we know, because I think we know we, we have got good knowledge. Um, we're also a very densely populated, compact country and, as a result, the opportunity to um have that scale is often interrupted by we don't have the right people in the right places, or that's not why that local authority wants stuff done, or this um business doesn't work that way.

Speaker 2:

You know we're all so old. You know we run a victorian railway that's kind of people moan're all so old. You know we run a Victorian railway line. That's kind of people moan about it. They go. But yeah, but it's because we run a Victorian railway line, we've got a 200-year-old network and our sewage systems were the first in the world. We innovated. We perhaps haven't carried on catching up. So maybe there's a kind of another round of revival that we need, because I don't think it's a lack of capability, maybe it's a lack of capacity and maybe a lack of ambition, maybe that's another problem is trust it.

Speaker 2:

Unless you push it, unless you force it, people will just carry on doing the same thing. So maybe that's it that's interesting.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned about lack of ambition. Where do you think that that comes from? Do you think that's a societal or governmental? Do you think something different?

Speaker 2:

all in sundry, I think that it's you know, government.

Speaker 2:

Often we don't. We don't have big government here, which I think is a good thing. You know, we don't want to be told what to do. I think that's that's the wrong way to go about stuff. But I think grenfell has shown that if you are complacent and you allow industry to misbehave, then really sad consequences can occur.

Speaker 2:

So maybe a bit more enforcement of what's already there, because, funny enough, we've got the regulation, we've got the building controls, we've got all of that there. So we're not asking for people to innovate around it, maybe innovate about how you apply it, but we're not trying to create more rules and more complexity, um. So maybe I think that's what we we should be doing is actually enforcing what's already there, um, and that enforcement, that that stick is needed. But I think, as I said earlier, the carrot is that you'll get more. If, if you do things more interestingly, more creatively, using more tools and technologies, you'll be a more appealing business, you should hopefully win more work. You'll attract those new resources. So there is a bit of ambition on behalf of the supply chain, as much as there is on the demand side.

Speaker 1:

What do you think now, just to get your thoughts on the demand side. What do you think now, just to get your thoughts on the future? So we draw on the parallel already, with organizations like blockbuster going out of business because something else has come in and disrupted the market. And and I also think that blockbuster focused so much on, we need to. We need to sell you. Sorry, not sell you, but we need to rent a cassette to you or a DVD to you, as opposed to. I think what Netflix have focused on is we need to bring entertainment into your home. So there's a just complete paradigm shift. Where do you think that that will happen? Or do you think that that will happen in the construction industry, where the current status quo will be obsolete in X amount of years because the whole thing will just be completely reframed?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean the Blockbuster example, and I think people have to talk about Kodak with film as well. They became more and more excellent at a one trick solution. You know, they were like the best at renting videos to us, but, as you said, the, what they were actually doing was providing entertainment, um, on demand to customers, and as that became easier for a different route and they didn't catch up, they lost that market. I think, because we're also seeing you mentioned climate change the rules are changing around us, so you won't necessarily be able to carry on doing things the old way, where the innovators who embrace the new expectations, they will start to win more market share and and others will become strongly disrupted because they're still offering the same. You know old stuff, you know, um, and actually the other challenge is commoditization. When something becomes commoditized, it all that, all that happens is it's a race to the bottom.

Speaker 2:

Others offer it cheaper, so it becomes a price conversation, whereas I think if you offer a more high value, high quality experience, then people are, and businesses are, prepared to pay a bit more.

Speaker 2:

Paying a subscription to Netflix, let's say it's 10 quid a month or whatever it is, today you may never have rented 10 videos or, sorry, two videos a month, but you're prepared to pay that because the service is so easy to access.

Speaker 2:

It can be done whether you're in a hotel room or at home, or on your phone, or if you're on a long train journey.

Speaker 2:

So the people are, you know, we're prepared to pay a premium because it gives us a better experience. And I think similar things will happen in our industry, where the suppliers, the manufacturers who offer products that better meet expectations, even if they maybe cost more but deliver a better outcome, they will be the winners, whereas those who are just saying, oh look my door, I'm just gonna have to make my door a bit cheaper because my door is a standard fire door and somebody else has got a standard fire door but they dropped their price. So it's just that race to the bottom, and I don't think that's an effective way to progress because at some point that quality that we talked about earlier will disappear, because compromises will be made, things you know, checks and balances will be lost. So I think you know it's about continuous improvement would be the way to go, but forecasting how quick and what parts of the industry will be affected, I'm not prepared, because I don't know.

Speaker 1:

One of the things I'm considering is that the whole industry changes because people will look more at the health element of building or the more of the circular economy or cradle to cradle elements, and that will function more in people's decisions of what they buy, how long they stay for. I'm just wondering if something else comes in that says you know, instead of me worrying about the size of the bedrooms, the bathroom, what view I've got outside that there's other factors that are high enough to influence my purchasing decision. Um, that makes certain types of properties or approaches far more desirable than than other types yeah, I mean we've seen the disruption, um, in offices, for example.

Speaker 2:

You know we work, they've had a struggled time but but they won a huge market share because it was office as a service. You know, I rent it when I need it and I don't have the physical asset. Now they got hit quite hard by the COVID pandemic because people didn't go to offices anymore and their business model got disrupted, even though they had been a disruptor for a long time. They had been a disruptor for a long time and I could imagine that there will be similar disruptions in the residential sector, where perhaps the way people consume housing services will change. I mean, younger generations do think differently. Their expectations are different. Maybe having a car in London most people don't have one, they need one. They'll either get an uber or they'll rent the car on the time, which is very sensible, you know. I think that's a sensible strategy, so I don't see any reason why similar patterns couldn't occur in a world of accommodation and housing.

Speaker 2:

What constitutes good may change as well, because, as you said, you know, for many of us it's having a nice garden, good view, big bedrooms. Others might say, no, no, I'd like to be able to have a coffee machine. That's my barista quality one. That's the. That, to me, is the most important thing. I don't really care about the bedrooms. I only spend six hours a night in there, or whatever, asleep, you know. So the bedroom perhaps becomes less important, but I think that's why choice is a good thing, that as we start offering more choice and what people gravitate to, I think we'll keep adjusting. Certainly, I don't think we should be building mock Tudor houses anymore because that's been done and dusted and um. I don't want to either also build rabbit hodges on the cheap. I think people should have um options on housing that are environmentally sound, low energy to run, exploiting innovation in heating. You know, I think that's going to be a big challenge for us to to move to a sustainable heating and power, which will inevitably then lead to different uh, abilities.

Speaker 1:

It's been great having you on and I know that you need to dash off shortly because you've got other places to to be, but I just thought I'd just ask you one more question, and that is what do you think is going on in the industry at the moment? That would surprise most people that are in the industry well, that's a great question.

Speaker 2:

I I actually think that our industry for the lay person is what I said that bunch of blokes shouting at each other in muddy boots. I actually think if people went on the majority of construction sites today, they'd see ppe everywhere. Uh, clean sites. It's actually a pleasant place to work. You know. It's not a nasty place to work, at least for the ones that are run well. Um, I think there are different people you'll see on construction sites.

Speaker 2:

I'm delighted that here at this event, we've got really balanced gender representation. There's lots of girls who have seen our industry as a hey, that's a career for me as well, and I think a lot of the construction industry is really celebrating that, and I'm I'm certainly an advocate for that, and I think that also the ambition to address those sustainability challenges is incredibly strong in our industry. We are really seeing again in this event there's loads of people promoting their environmentally sustainable solutions and offerings, whether it's services or materials and other goods. Or in Europe, there's environmental product declarations and product passports that are coming in we're going to show. Demonstrate that I'm providing the right things and they are stamped, that they're done right. Demonstrate that I'm providing the right things and they are stamped, that they're done right and you know that those are giving that confidence that I'm not just putting any old crap in, I'm actually using the right things.

Speaker 2:

So I think that would surprise people that actually this industry is ambitious. It is moving in the right direction. I'm just not sure how well we can scale because the inertia to go back to old ways is still strong. But if we can have enough push from government and private clients that expect more, then I think we'll continue to deliver more and hopefully appeal to a wider audience of people to enter as members of the industry marek, I think that that is a great place to leave this conversation for now.

Speaker 1:

It would be great to catch up with you again at another time, but really grateful for you coming and talking with me today and being on the show. I hope that the rest of I keep calling it EcoBuild it used to be EcoBuild but now it's FutureBuild. But I hope that the rest of FutureBuild works well for you and I'm really grateful for you, sir, thanks for inviting me to speak. Thanks for watching to the end. I think that you'll like this, but before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you subscribed.