Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 74 The Science Behind Net Zero Buildings and What Engineers Must Know
Net zero isn’t just a goal, it’s a system-wide shift.
In this episode, Dr. Anastasia Mylona breaks down the science behind net zero buildings and what it really takes to deliver on their promise.
From carbon calculations to human behaviour, this conversation uncovers the critical levers engineers must understand to move from theory to practice.
Key topics include:
• What makes a building truly net zero
• Why systems thinking matters more than ever
• The hidden emissions no one talks about
• How engineers balance efficiency with practicality
• What’s working — and where we still fall short
• The future of net zero in policy and design
If you're committed to climate solutions that stick, this is one to watch.
If you want to see our other insightful podcasts, click here:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOHI_yaqB2U8KWbsfJDPCoYEfOh-TTnip
Find us on: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0dDkxLWZ25nT0krYWaTiIT Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thrive-in-construction-with-darren-evans/id1726973152
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTrzqei7gttB8WB5wM6hUpw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/thrive-in-construction-podcast/ Our Website: https://darren-evans.co.uk/
Links:
Anastasia Mylona's LinkedIn :https://www.linkedin.com/in/anastasia-mylona-6111584/
CIBSE: https://www.cibse.org/
We worked in collaboration with the industry, other institutions in the industry, and we produced a big standard it's called the net zero carbon building standard, which does all that. Basically, it creates that roadmap for net zero. So it's things like that and not just our members members of everybody in the industry goes and says, okay, this should be our priorities. Everybody in the industry goes and says, okay, this should be our priorities. The client, contractor, et cetera will say, okay, how much does it cost? It costs X. Then they say, okay, do we have to do it? Actually, no, because it's not part of the regulations. There's no police. This is just what we think it's the right thing to do, so it will never happen. So I think there is a gap between the targets and the aspirations of the kind of government and policy and the targets and aspiration of the industry. And how do we bridge that?
Speaker 2:One of the things, as you're speaking there, that I'm reminded of is what Letty have done.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it seems as though they have bridged that gap to a degree, and they appear to have influenced government as well, at least within London. That then has spread out a little bit further. So do you think that? So do you? Yeah? What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:So we're working really closely with Leti. Right, we have members in Leti and other institutions. So we worked with them on the net zero definitions, also on the standards. We worked with them on the net zero definitions, also on the standards, and there is a place for Leti to set the targets and set the ambitions. And they do have a very strong voice because it's a lot of really influential people. So there is a place for them, for Leti.
Speaker 1:London is an interesting example because it always seems that they are much more ambitious in their targets, in their policies within the London plan. So it's easier to work with London, the DLA, to say, okay, this is what needs to be your next step, this is what you need, this is what we offered. And they seem to be more kind of open to embracing and adding all that kind of more kind of cutting edge elements into their policies. And then some of them like the overheating I don't know if I go into a lot of detail so we worked really closely with DLA on the overheating risk in London. So they embraced that, they put it into their planning, the London plan basically, and then a few years after that became national policy. It's called Part O of the building regulations.
Speaker 1:So it is, london seems to be a stepping stone towards kind of a more national and yes, so to go back to to letty, I, I totally agree. I wouldn't say they bridge the gap. Um, they're still the kind of the uh, the kind of lobbying, um kind of mechanism to say this is what we need to do, but, um, but yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that they have actually bridged that gap. I think they're still okay.
Speaker 2:So what do you? What do you think is needed in order for that gap to be bridged, and how do you know when the gap has actually been bridged? And I guess the other question is on that as well is, if that or when that gap is bridged, is it going to be a temporary or is it going to be a permanent?
Speaker 1:That's exactly the problem, isn't it? That government is five year changes.
Speaker 2:And it's always short term. Every single government doesn't make any difference who gets in. The policy will just last for as long as the government thinks that the people want it exactly, and if they think that the majority of people don't want it, then they'll change, because they want to get the vote. They don't want to do the thing that's best exactly.
Speaker 1:But when you're tackling things like net zero climate change, there isn't the short term. You need to look into the future. You need to have a plan. You need to set policies in place, long-term policies. This short-term kind of vision and approach is is I don't think it's ever going to to work. So there needs to be a cross-party agreement to say on climate change, we all agree to support this set of all policies, that nobody's going to touch them. Basically, we're just going to um for whatever, even the government, if the government changes.
Speaker 2:You're smiling, I'm smiling because I'm thinking utopia, I know, I know. I'm smiling because I'm thinking if I am a, if I'm a rogue party and I'm not going to give a name to a party, but if I'm a rogue party, yeah, then I will say I've got competitive advantage by not signing up to this cross-party agreement, because I think I could probably get some good leverage in areas where you would be a bit hamstrung. So that's why I smiled.
Speaker 1:I know, but look where we are with politics. Look UK Brexit, look internationally as well. I mean, I'm not a politician, so I don't really know how politics work. I can only say as an engineer if we are actually serious about decarbonization, it's something that it needs to be a long term vision and having the incentives in place to achieve that vision.
Speaker 2:And so one of the things that I'm working on in my consultancy is storytelling and coming up with a narrative that points more towards a long-term vision as opposed to the short term, because the gap that I see at the moment, that I'm trying to help bridge, which will bridge this gap that we're referring to, is that, when it comes to the decisions that people make, most of them are emotional decisions, they're not logical decisions, and so, in order for you to make an emotional, long-term decision, then that needs to be something which has not been articulated in a way that it has at the moment.
Speaker 2:So you got the same from a health point of view. So short-term health versus long-term health, people wouldn't go to make the decisions that they would in terms of getting operated on or having different types of foods or drinks or whatever it is, if they looked at things at the long term. The same is with relationship. The same is with education. The same is with climate change, all of is with education. The same is with climate change, all of these things. When you look at the long term, it's a different story that needs to be told.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So I'm talking here specifically about human behavior.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:As opposed to technically. We know what the answers are, what you're saying is technically. We know what the answers are. We know what to do. Yes, the system's in place.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But how do we get the humans?
Speaker 1:to behave. Yes and prioritize. You mean Prioritize, look at, make decisions, long-term decisions, rather than what is in front of them. I mean that's yes, you're right. So there is a level of education and communication to the public, because ultimately, if the public wants it, then they will kind of influence government and policy and all that. Yeah, I don't have the answer to that, I'm sorry, nor do I?
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying that you should have the answer, I'm just it's a gap that I've noticed.
Speaker 1:It makes logic Like I don't have kids, but if I had kids, I want them to have a secure future. How do I make sure that they have a secure future? Make sure that you know they live on an earth that is habitable, that the buildings that they are living in they actually keep them healthy and happy. So for me that's a logical kind of way to think about it. Obviously, there are restrictions. It's how much can I afford? Do you have a budget for your home improvements? What are you going to prioritize? Perhaps not the heat pump? You're going to prioritize changing the bathroom and the kitchen rather than the systems, because they're more energy efficient.
Speaker 2:And it's less attractive as well. If I've got friends coming round, they're not going to compliment me on the new heat pump I've got.
Speaker 1:Mine will.
Speaker 2:Maybe I need to change my friends, then what do you think? But you know, in the general speaking, when someone comes round to view the home, I don't know that at the moment we're in a place where someone's going to come around to purchase a new home and say love that heat pump.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they will say I love this bathroom, yes, and this kitchen is wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yes, unfortunately, you're right. Yes, correct.
Speaker 2:And so I'm talking more to that emotional side, and I don't know if there's anything that Sibsy have done yet.
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's anything that SIBSE have done yet within looking at. How do we look at the human side of this to fit the technology or have the technology fit the human side? I guess what we are trying to do is raise it as an issue not specific to technology, but kind of educate the public about certain things that maybe they haven't thought about. You know, when you're buying your home, what are the right questions. Yes, you're looking at the kitchen and the bathroom, but also you might want to ask about orientation. Are your windows too big? Is there going to be a problem of overheating in the summer? What is the energy bill of this? Rather than EPC, abc? What is actually the energy bill of the home?
Speaker 1:Homes, it's more, like you said, emotional, it's personal, right, it's. This is how much you're going to be spending, uh, heating, cooling, cooking, all that. So, um, and the the newer um kind of subject that we are trying to create a video um on is the imported carbon. So now people understand the concept of you use less energy if you switch off the lights, but how do you communicate? What is the embodied energy in something that you're going to buy? What are the kind of implications of choosing a instead of b.
Speaker 1:So we are going into that kind of storytelling process of okay, so if I'm going to try and describe that, explain that to my parents. How, how am I going to explain that? And we're working with a kind of animation company stuff to create that that kind of story. So educating. So we're not going to tell them buy a heat pump instead of an air conditioning, but educate them on there is a, there is an energy already on everything you buy, every decisions you make. There is an energy stored into that kind of piece of equipment, piece of clothing, food, whatever. Um, so yes, to answer your question, we are trying to do that kind of educational piece, but maybe we as institutions we need to do more in highlighting big, big things.
Speaker 2:Um, just, something that's just come to me. Now, as you're speaking, it sounds like there's two costs. One cost is this is how much you're paying for it. The other cost is this is the cost in terms of resource. Yeah exactly, but it's the resilient 100%. If you like that and use that, then I'm happily going to take the credit for that idea Problem. But it's just that, because we understand what cost is, don't we? That's already wired in our mind.
Speaker 1:We're used to it, so it's how do we tell that story? Or give that perspective I think, I think the focus of the society is on things.
Speaker 1:how do we get more money and things? Um, I'm not saying it's well, I do. I don't think that's the right focus, because when everybody is focused on that more, more, more, more, more, more money, more things, more status, more Then how do you then say about the other cost? How do you explain that the other cost is bigger? The cost of the environment, the cost to you know the other cost is bigger the cost of the environment, the cost to you know the impact on resources. How do you, how do you, how do you explain that?
Speaker 1:yep good, yep good question everything is about spending, isn't it? Everything is about spending. It's about um the the latest is the passive income, isn't't it? How can I make money without actually doing anything?
Speaker 2:Yeah, how can I make money just from breathing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are conversations on dinner kind of with friends and stuff that this is kind of the current topic and I'm like how is this? The topic? You have two toddlers Is this you know, money is one thing. Of course you want to make sure that they have the right education and all that, but they can hear you talk about money only. What about, like other things, other principles and values and the cost, you know, to the environment and to the rest of the world, to the environment and to the rest of the world?
Speaker 1:So I feel, as engineers, we have a role to play and one of the things that I, when I speak to younger engineers, people that are either studying or they're starting their career now I try to say that as an engineer, you can actually change the world and everything you do. You need to have that at the back of your mind. Every decision you make. It could potentially change the world. You can come up with a better solution. If the solution is better, the building is going to be better. It's going to be a case study. It's going to be copied. We could actually make a huge difference to to the world and um, yeah, so that's another story, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think that that element that you're talking to there is is value. So, instead of value being money, value value is impact or cause and effect, and I'm sure that your members and people that you've dealt with in the past have heard this terminology before, called value engineering.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Really what it means often not all the time, but often is cost cutting. Yeah, it is. There's nothing to do with value in it. It's all to do with money in it. It's all to do with money yeah, it is, you're right.
Speaker 1:Value is money in that. In that respect, in in that context, by value they mean the cost of things. Do we need it? No, we don't need it. Let's remove it. Which you could argue that there is a reason why it's there. Please don't need it. Let's remove it. Which you could argue that there is a reason why it's there. Please don't remove it.
Speaker 2:Because it is of value, but it's just expensive, that's it. So value and cost are two separate words and they mean two separate things, but often they get interchanged but often they get interchanged.
Speaker 1:I guess the thing that's another gap that we could potentially raise at this point is the idea of you can put a cost to things, but it's very difficult to put a cost to people's attitudes, health, productivity, happiness. It's very difficult, isn't it? So when you say, for example, a lot of times blinds, external blinds, are expensive, they remove them, how do you then do that? Make a case for them? You put the blinds there so that you avoid people being discomforted in summer and use more energy. So the energy part, you can say, okay, then you need to pay for more energy for air conditioning, but how do you then put value cost to people not feeling well, not being productive, not sleeping well?
Speaker 2:no, it's very, very difficult to do that especially if you are not responsible for that building or your name is not attached to or attributed to that building. So if I came to your home for dinner and you provided a really cheap meal that made me sick, that you're. That's going to be an issue for you because I'm going to go and tell other people. You know me, you've made me, you've made me sick, yeah but?
Speaker 2:but if someone's provided me something and they're never going to see me and I don't know who's provided it and I'm sick, I mean why? Why? Why do they? I've got no one to say, look, I've got this and I'm sick. And so I think the same principle happens with the buildings is, when someone comes into a building and they're sick, who do they?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean the owner of the. You know there is a responsibility there, but you are right, it's far away from kind of the person design and all that yeah yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Is this the gap, then, that you're trying to bridge, the sibs?
Speaker 1:you're trying to bridge, um, which we've kind of segu a reason. They can then quantify that. You know, this is, uh. To go back to the same example um, we put the blinds there because otherwise the building is going to be uncomfortable for that many days. Are you happy for this, um, for the building to be closed for all these days? Are you happy to put air conditioning units? If we put air conditioning units, this is the cost. So, so we're trying to provide them with the right kind of tools and guidance to be able to make the case to the clients to say, um, this is the, you know, if you value, engineer it and you you remove it. This is what the cost is going to be.
Speaker 2:Since you've taken on this role at SIPC, what has been the thing that has surprised you the most?
Speaker 1:The passion of our members. Definitely there is a lot, a lot of passion. They really, I mean, I always kind of knew it, but now it's like blindly obviously to me that they are very, very, very keen. They, they, they. They do think that they can improve the, the industry, they can improve the world. They're very keen to volunteer. I mean the amount of time that they are providing, of their time, of the free time nobody's paying them to actually write things or being involved in committees, in decisions, strong opinions, a lot of knowledge.
Speaker 1:So that definitely was a pleasant kind of surprise, because it's also was a pleasant kind of surprise because it's also like, when you get to a role like that, you, you don't have anybody kind of above you to ask like I don't know anything about AI, what does Sipsi say about AI? I don't know. If I don't know, then who knows? But what I know is that if I get a message out and if I ask five people, five people are going to ask another 50 people, 50 people. All of a sudden I have 500 people very, very keen to be involved in working groups and webinars and presentations come together, do events. Do you see what I mean? So, um, so so that I mean that is an amazing thing to have this kind of 20 000 members, plus plus all people wanting to work with you to make the world a better place so you've got an extended tribe or family yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's not just uk, it's international.
Speaker 2:You know, you go to other countries like oh, cpc, wow, you know we've read this, or amazing work you're doing there, and it's like so let's talk international, yeah, um, how much involvement do you have and can you give me an insight of what you're doing in Saudi Arabia? There's a huge development and building that's going on in that country. It is very, very different to this country or any European country, you're right. So I'm interested to know what you're doing there.
Speaker 1:So one third of our membership is international. Some of them are in the UAE, not Saudi Arabia, but a lot of our members actually work there either for kind of short-term contracts. They work in this kind of massive projects. So the way we see this is that it's an area that we can have positive influence. So we are trying to work with organizations there as well as our members that work there, big consultancies that work there already and see what do they need, what do they need in terms of support to push more kind of environmentally friendly materials, practices, policies, ideas, and they are very receptive. Actually, they want to do things the way the Western, you know, do it, or the UK is doing it. So I think there is a lot of promise. There's a lot of potential in the Middle East and Eastern countries as well, like Far East.
Speaker 2:Far East yeah.
Speaker 1:For example, I traveled to China earlier this year on a funded project funded by the British Embassy in Beijing. They wanted to bring people from the UK and from China to talk about climate resilience and decarbonisation policies, and I spoke to somebody from their business and trade department and she said for a lot, you know, a long time we were thinking about new, new build, new build, new build. So our priority skills were architecture. You know we wanted architects to design those buildings. But now we have all this stock that is old, it's not performing. We need to refurbish it and we're looking into the UK practices and retrofit strategies to learn. You know how we do that, where we prioritize it, what are the materials, what are the kind of technologies.
Speaker 1:So you learn a lot when you travel and talk to people about their priorities. So that's one of the things that I'm very keen on is to understand how what we've known can be kind of transferred in terms of knowledge in other regions. But also they have knowledge that we will need in the future. So the UAE they've been talking about overheating and cooling for many, many millennia. Right, that was their primary kind of cooling region. So how can we transfer the knowledge that has been kind of created there into the UK to deal with problems that are coming because of climate change. So it's exchange of knowledge.
Speaker 2:And how is that going?
Speaker 1:I mean I've only been on Visro over a year and a half.
Speaker 2:So I'm not asking is it perfect? It's progress. How's it going?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, absolutely Well, at the moment we're creating those kind of connections, right. So because you need, in every country, in every region, every sector, you need to know the right people to help you kind of understand the context and then you talk to them and you understand their needs and then how then we can support that. You talk to them and you understand their needs and then how then we can support that. So one of the areas that is very, very important If spreading like wildfire, is the embodied carbon work we've been doing. We published a methodology for calculating the embodied carbon of building services systems and it was obviously a gap in the knowledge and we've seen this kind of spreading all over the world. It has been adopted in North America, in the UAE, in Australia, New Zealand. We're working with Spain, with Ireland, hong Kong, to do addendums there as well. So that's just one example of kind of how you collaborate in that kind of knowledge exchange.
Speaker 2:I'm interested, just first of all, just to talk about this principle of silos that exists within the industry. So, sibsy, clearly look at things that are mechanical and electrical and would leave the architects to do the architects. But do you think that there is the opportunity or space for a new way of working across the whole construction? And if there is that, what do you think that that could look like?
Speaker 1:So, yes, that's another area I'm passionate about because I was trained as an architect, and when you are trained as an architect, you are the leader of the design team, and when you are trained as an architect.
Speaker 1:You are the leader of the design team. Everybody then fits their work around your visions. But I think, because of the priorities the kind of environmental priorities that we have this definitely has to change as a concept, this kind of linear I design it, I give it to you, you service it, I give it to you, you put the drainers, I give it to you, you put it within the whatever. So ideally, the team sits around the table from day one and they understand client briefs from day one. So you sit around, the client says this is a. I want, this is the purpose of the building. Is x? I wanted to have this aspiration now and then, as a team, you address that.
Speaker 1:Rather than as a kind of linear, you do it as a, as a team, because the um, the consult, you know the sustainability consultants, they will, they will tell you. You know these are the areas where you need to focus for the building to be and it's efficient, you know, then the architect can translate that into design features then then they can correct. You know they can, they can build, they can design the building together, and I think that's a much more efficient and effective way to do it.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with you. As you know, I've got a sustainability consultancy and we've noticed this clear difference from the conversations that we have at early stage Reba Stage 1, reba Stage 2, compared to the ones that we have when we're bought in at Reba Stage 3, or maybe, if we're really on a difficult job, then reba stage four. Yeah, um, but sustainability appears to in in still most cases to be an afterthought and someone like an M&E consultant that's got a little bit of experience in sustainability will say I don't know, it's fine, I can, I can do that, which I think is a missed opportunity, but it feels like to me having this group that you're discussing coming together may feel a little bit messy to begin with, but what you're able to create is something with far more clarity for later, down the line, as opposed to it just approaching and just being really clean, really easy, really crisp and clear from day one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you might make decisions that then it's very difficult to change later on, while you, if you yes, it's messy to start with a lot of opinions, a lot of ideas, but that's how innovation happens as well. You know, you bring a lot of people, you brainstorm, you create, create something. It's messy, but then it evolves into something. The best, the best option, I think I totally agree.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's possible to innovate without getting messy you learn to work with other people as well.
Speaker 1:Uh, you need to go through that kind of process, the messy process, in order to, to, to be able then to, to work, understand each other, our values you know, and all that. Otherwise it's there's.
Speaker 2:No, you don't know the people that you work with, and I I find that very difficult talk to me really briefly, um, if you can, about your doctorate, what it was that you did, um what you have taken away from it and the impact that that is making I've been really lucky really with my, my phd, because a lot of people they do the phd and then they do completely different.
Speaker 1:I managed somehow to build on it. So my PhD was on the energy performance, or energy and thermal performance, of highly glazed buildings. So I looked at how highly glazed you know these kind of office towers with fully glazed Like the Shard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how they perform under different climatic zones, how the balance between heating and cooling changes, how you can improve them by shading what type of shading insulation and pretty much I managed to move that forward throughout most of my career. So when I finished my PhD, one of the areas that I wanted to see is how do I do exactly the same work, same analysis, but in the future? So, working in the University of Oxford, I worked with the Climate Impact Program. It used to be funded by DEFRA and we worked with a Met Office to look how we can use climate projections that they create to apply them to different industries to understand our future risks.
Speaker 1:So I worked on buildings, on the engineering and buildings sector, and I looked at how we can understand what is the impact of future climate to buildings. And then that knowledge meant that I could. When I started working at CIPSI, I could create the right tools, the right information, the right guidance for engineers. And because that was all in place, then it became policy. First it became London plant policy and then became kind of a national policy. So I think I have been really really fortunate to see kind of how something develops from research, and I'm not saying that I did all that by myself, but I was involved in creating all that you know the knowledge, guidance, the policy and etc.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and what.
Speaker 2:What's come out of the end of it for you is that? How, yeah, what's come out of the end of that for you that you're now able to implement or you're able to affect change?
Speaker 1:I guess, um, because I went through different areas of development, I now I understand the processes. I understand how something, an idea, becomes a thing, a guidance, knowledge, how knowledge is integrated into industry, industry knowledge practices, and how then that becomes a piece of policy, and then how this becomes international. So the net zero carbon building standard is how we achieve net zero decarbonization, basically right, and that has two elements One is the operational, the other one is the embodied, and I guess our contribution in terms of the embodied carbon is the methodology for calculating the building services systems that you kind of design and specify and install in a building. But yeah, the standard is everything, it's the whole life of the building. Basically Sipsi and Leti. So Julie Godfrey and Clara Bagenal-George, they sat together as you do and they say, okay, how do we reach net zero by 2050? What is net zero? So the first thing they think, okay, first of all we need to define it. What does net zero means for us, for engineers? So they obviously brought together all these people from Leti, from SIPC. You know we had workshops, we had discussions, committees, whatever. So they developed the definitions what do we mean by net zero?
Speaker 1:The next thing now is how do we achieve net zero by 2050? What are the elements? What do we need to put in place in order to reach there? And that slowly developed into the standard. That is looking at different types of buildings. They did the analysis of where we are at the moment. You know what is the kind of energy per square meter, different typology, different building types. What do we mean about net zero? When we say net zero for new build, what do we mean when we are talking about existing? How do we refurbish for net zero and how do we design for net zero? And then, of course, is that element you know is the operational, but also it's the embodied carbon. If you're refurbishing something, what are your targets? How do you measure embodied carbon? It's obviously easier to make decisions when it's a new building right, you start from scratch. But for refurbishment it's different. Of course, the information and the data that we collected. It was much more for operational than for embodied, but it's a work in progress.
Speaker 2:And that's great, that really is great. And it's interesting that you're saying that the data that's available is greater for new build.
Speaker 1:It's not for new build, it's for I mean, yes, there is an element of that, but it's more on the operation of buildings, because, you're right, there is more smart meters, controls, BMSs all that accumulate data. The data has been analyzed, there is information that you can access and understand how the buildings work, but it's not as easy when you start looking at the imported carbon, because it wasn't something that people thought about.
Speaker 2:Or even measured Absolutely, and so the data points are fewer.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Just pulling on your architectural experience here. I've had a number of conversations recently with organizations that build from timber or straw.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where do you see that as an answer or a methodology to achieve net zero in the built environment?
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean, I'm a big believer of that of timber and straw, and I'm always curious to see how these kind of different methods of construction can be implemented in different climates and in different countries implemented in different climates and in different countries. The thing about our industry is that it's very difficult to change things, so they are considered to be like an eco-warrior mission, and it's not. It's not Just because your local builder doesn't know how to do it, it doesn't mean that it's not viable. Know how to do it, it doesn't mean that it's not viable, like, for example, when we just finished refurbishing our house it's a hundred-year-old house in Oxford and I was very keen to put a green roof on my extension.
Speaker 1:I got so much pushback you can't imagine, as if I was suggesting I don't know what it's like, why the builders didn't want to think about it. Why are you doing that? I just want it. I'm the client. Please, can you? I don't have to justify myself. It's not going to work for all these different reasons.
Speaker 1:Okay, then I had to talk to the people that are designing them and installing them. I had all the specifications, the structural, everything. It's possible. What's the next problem? How are we going to connect? Anyway, then the other problem was the neighbors. Why are you putting a garden on your roof? Are you going to be spying on us? It's like, no, I'm not going to do that. It's like there is so, so much pushback on anything that looks a little bit different than everybody else on the street. Yeah, from everybody, from everybody. Everybody else on the street, yeah, from everybody. So I am actually very, very, yes, I am very, very pro-different, because again we go back to the idea of innovation. We're not going to get anywhere without innovation, without some people actually trying new things.
Speaker 2:It's interesting as well just today, as I've been listening to you and you've mentioned two people that are involved, um, if really in a significant way, to reduce the carbon that's in the built environment, one of them. One of them is Julie, the other one is Clara. They're both women, yeah, and there's a lot of encouragement from women to other women or girls to come and get into the construction industry and it's just fascinating that actually these two women have been able to pull together such a significant team of many, many people that have had significant influence. That's making a tangible difference.
Speaker 1:I think women relate more to different values than money and power. They're more interested in the environment, environmental impact, living a better world for their kids. Uh, and I'm not saying all, of course, but you see that in kind of a consistent way that you will see more. I mean, I don't know in your consultancy, if you see that more sustainability consultants tend to be women so we've got a 50 50 split in the organization.
Speaker 2:We've got 20 people in the organization, 50 50 split. I would love to say it's because I'm really intelligent in that area and I completely designed it all. But it's not true. It's the way that it's worked out. Yeah, um, I was brought up by a single uh mother for most, well, most of my childhood. I was about 13, no, 12. I was 12 when my mum remarried. Um, I've got three daughters. Um, the dog even in my home is female as well, along with my wife. So me and my son are very much outnumbered. But, um, but, but definitely right. Women are naturally more nurturing and more caring of values that are to do with longevity. Men are very much more prone to looking and feeling good in the moment and showing something off to say this is what it is right now and it's quite short term.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's my observation, and so that is in no way um saying one's better than the other. It's just one has got more of a predisposition to lean more one way than than the other and and people do switch right.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you know lots of women that have not got a compassionate bone in their body 100 and I know lots of men that have got loads of compassion and it's just they're brimming with it, but it's just um, you know an observation that that that I think that there is a need for women and men to come together in this industry with this mixed skill set so that we can develop and grow, and it might start off messy, but we can grow and develop together to get an outcome that we all actually benefit from.
Speaker 1:I totally agree, you need both. You need both of those because you need the focus and the kind of the you know more male engineers are bringing to the task, but also you need that kind of longer term bringing a lot of elements into the mix that a lot of females engineers are bringing as well.
Speaker 2:But I think also, along with that, I have heard a rising number it feels like to me anyway of women saying that they don't feel that they've got influence and they don't feel that there's enough this, that and the other are unintentionally, um, diminishing their impact because of women's natural ability to include and to be compassionate and to be forward thinking in lots of areas that they they do have a massive ability and are having a massive ability to have impact, and so I think that that message doesn't go out as loud and as strong as maybe it could do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I was quite fortunate that I was always pushed to do more and I was very encouraged and very supported, both in the university, you know, academic world and in the industry world. For me, it's important that we share values and we speak the same language and we are trying to achieve the same thing. And but it is important to also understand what everybody's bringing, because not everybody's bringing the same skills, and it's not just between male and female, it's also between international, internationally as well, because the different cultures bring completely different points of view of the same problem. They see it completely differently and it's fascinating to see that.
Speaker 1:So I think the engineering industry and the building industry needs to be more open to change, and that change means more innovation, it means more diversity, it means different material, different processes, different, different. What impact do you think? That CIBS? They are responsible for the performance of buildings. So if our priority is to achieve net zero by 2050, it's basically the engineers that they're going to do that. So the potential impact is massive. I think, as an institution, as a professional body, our focus needs to be what do they need in order to do that? And it's not just in terms of technical knowledge. It's also in terms of advising government, creating knowledge for clients, for the public. So it's supporting STEM in schools, in universities. So we need to tackle that from all points, all stages in somebody's career, but also all the decision makers, so everybody understands when our members are presenting the options. Then they make an informed decision.
Speaker 2:Someone's on a YouTube channel and they're watching you. They want to have an impact, but they feel frustrated, they maybe feel scared, they maybe feel overwhelmed. What is it that you would say to them? To speak to at least one of those things?
Speaker 1:So I would say that CIPSE is not me or my colleagues, it's our members. We are here to do whatever they want us to do. We have many different ways of listening to them and for them to be involved in what we do. We have special interest groups, societies, committees, anybody that wants to be, thousands of volunteers, and we are working with all of them in a very kind of structured and organized way to understand their frustrations, their worries and put a plan in place to address them all.
Speaker 1:So, as we speak, I'm creating a five-year strategy, technical strategy, with all the priorities of our members, or at least the members that they have come and they said this should be the priorities and how we're going to address them for the next five years for things that we know, how we're going to create knowledge and resources for things we don't know, how we're going to invest in research and then go through that process that we talked about earlier. So I would encourage people that they are worried, or they have a solution to a problem or they have come across something that is not clear they're finding difficult to understand, then to get in touch with us and then we will try to direct them, help them If we know the answer, we'll give them the answer. If we know a group that is working on the answer, we'll direct them there.
Speaker 2:I'm interested to know can you just give us a quick sneak preview on what the priorities are for this five-year plan?
Speaker 1:Okay. So the international reach is one of my top priorities. I think we have been focusing as an institution. We are a global institution, right, but we have been focusing a lot on what the UK needs and what the UK can produce. But actually the world is a big place and there is so much opportunity out there. So having a process to engage with our regions and the wider communities around the world, I think it's very, very important. So one of my kind of overarching priorities is that One of the other things that we are starting at least in the building industry we are starting from scratch is the use of AI in design, operation, decision making of buildings.
Speaker 1:I'm sure some younger engineers have thought about putting all the formulas on AI and say design the building. For me that it's X, y, z, we don't know. We don't know. Is that good, is that bad? Who needs to check? Can we do it? Is this the future? Is it a slippery slope? Does it mean there's not going to be engineering in the future? So it's a big unknown that everybody is so scared to even think about it. They're just pushing it in the future. But the future is here. So AI is one of the kind of technical. One of the kind of the more mainstream for CIPSE areas is things like climate adaptation. You know we still need to understand how buildings need to work in the future. Retrofit is massive. You know less new, more retrofitting what we have that it uses our embodied carbon, using the shell of the building, repurposing it or changing its systems. How do we do that in the most efficient, effective way? Do you want more?
Speaker 2:Are there more priorities?
Speaker 1:Well, things like embodied carbon, how do we push that to be regulated by government? Yeah, I think I would say these are kind of the five big themes.
Speaker 2:How would you report on your experience at COP29?
Speaker 1:Every time I've seen coverage of COP every year it's just negative. It's just a negative. Why don't you focus on the positive things that are happening, but actually the success stories that you go to COP, you meet people, you collaborate, you do something and a lot of things are actually happening. You do something and a lot of things are actually happening. You know, there there is a lot of energy that going into bringing people together and addressing problems, not perhaps in a in a national or international way, but local, and maybe that's the future for me. Empowering communities to do things is the future of dealing with big problems and that's what happened at COP29 as well.
Speaker 1:So you had the government conversation and the legislation that was happening on at the same time as everything else. But every, every country and every organization brought people in that kind of blue zone where I was kind of invited and we talked about what we have been doing, what we can do, how we can work together. What are the key messages? What are the key technologies? What is this country doing on this subject? What is the other country, the uk, doing in something? Um, how can we work together? How can we collaborate?
Speaker 1:I'm doing, um, I'm establishing a new working group on sustainable cooling, because I feel that nobody's looking at that at the moment. The uk is coming, I can see it coming right. The you know we are reducing our heating and the heat pumps, and great, but in you know 10 years time, when we have super hot weather, how are we gonna cool our homes and our buildings? So, having already something in place to say, here are the solutions, I feel that that is worth kind of exploring. You go to, you have all these countries that are already doing amazing work in this area and new technologies or policies, green ways of cooling buildings. They're investing or they have invested, and they have the technologies. So I'm bringing those now in the working group to educate us, to understand what is available out there.
Speaker 2:I think that's a fantastic place to be for you at the moment in CIBSI. I think it's a fantastic opportunity for us to be in this industry at the moment with the things that are going on too. It's been great having you here on the show, and I appreciate your wisdom, your passion. Thank you, um, and and your time, thank you thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker 2:Thank you thanks for watching to the end. I think that you'll like this, but before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you subscribed.