Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 78 Why the Construction Industry Is Losing the PR Battle and How to Win It

• Darren Evans

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Despite building everything around us, construction remains misunderstood by the public and too many leaders are afraid of the spotlight.

In this powerful episode, Leanne Tritton, founder of ING Media and Co-Founder of Don't Waste Buildings, reveals why the built environment struggles to tell its own story and what must change. From the fear of unscripted interviews to the missed power of podcasts, this is a call to arms for confident, human storytelling.

We explore:
• Why traditional PR strategies don’t work in modern media
• The hidden opportunity in podcasts and personal voice
• What’s stopping construction from owning its impact
• Why the industry can’t afford to stay silent on sustainability
• How to build trust without losing control

This is essential listening for any leader who wants their work and values to be seen and heard.

If you want to see our other insightful podcasts, click here:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOHI_yaqB2U8KWbsfJDPCoYEfOh-TTnip 

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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/thrive-in-construction-podcast/ 
Our Website: https://darren-evans.co.uk/

Links: 

ING MEDIA
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ing-media
X: @INGMedia 
Insta: @ingmedia_
TikTok: INGMedia

The London Society 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/10346652
X: @londonsoc
Insta: londonsociety1912
Don’t Waste Buildings – volunteer group
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13002786/
Web: www.dontwastebuildings.com

Leanne Tritton
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leanne-tritton/
X: @leannetritton
Insta: @leannetritton

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Speaker 1:

One of the things that I used to say to people I worked with, particularly younger people coming into the industry news and journalism or newspapers and broadcasters they've always been selling a product and one of the things that I absolutely adored about moving to London and the UK in 1995 was the breadth of newspapers. I mean, I was the most excited person on a Saturday morning and you know the newspapers. You used to carry them to your front door and I mean your arms would be breaking and they were relatively cheap then. They didn't cost a lot and they were just such a huge breadth of wonderful writers and information. But they were definitely packaged with a point of view.

Speaker 1:

So of course the Guardian had a point of view, and the Telegraph and the Times and you know back in the sun and the red tops, they all had a point of view. But as long as you knew that, I thought that was, the reader was informed about where the information was being slanted. And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't mind a packaged product in news. I just like to know what is behind the thinking of the editors. And in those days as well, the editors, you know they were sort of rock stars, weren't they?

Speaker 1:

And the major writers because they were the gatekeepers to this huge audience and, of course, now we don't have the same gatekeepers, which is great. I think that's really healthy.

Speaker 2:

I think they're also the gatekeepers to the world as well, because they gave the people that read the things that they wrote a perspective of the world, and that's the only way.

Speaker 1:

Back then you really could have seen the world yes, yes, exactly, and, and you know, are we better off having thousands, tens of thousands of people giving their perspective?

Speaker 1:

I'm talking about podcasts, really not, social media but podcasts, or a couple of hundred or thousands you know smaller numbers back in the day. But the trade-off, I think, is in quality and understanding where people are coming from. But I think people are more sophisticated than we think. I was thinking about it as I was coming here and when social media first started, I can remember Twitter and Facebook. Facebook and in our office was just amazing. I mean, oh my god, you can, you know you're meeting all of these people that you haven't seen for ages. I mean, remember that flurry of excitement of discovering someone, uh, that you haven't seen for years someone used to go to school with.

Speaker 2:

Exactly that's what they're doing.

Speaker 1:

But then also on places like Twitter, where people were having really constructive conversations, and I think we forget that In the early days of social media, it was just this wonderful world of people sharing information and tips and restaurant reviews and food and issues and everything else. It's in recent years that it's taken a darker turn, but there is still that core of sharing information with people and being able to find information from trusted sources and people who are experts, and I think that what has happened over the last 10 years or so? Younger people are much more savvy than perhaps us oldies. You know we're a bit more like oh my God, it's going to hell in a handcart. But you know my son and his mates they kind of know how, you know they say, oh, don't worry about it. You know, we know that guy's a. You know, wally, or whatever. I was about to say something else I forgot. I was on a podcast, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, definitely so.

Speaker 1:

I think where you know, people will become more sophisticated and know how to weed stuff out.

Speaker 2:

What is it that you think then, from a podcast point of view, makes a good podcast for you? I'm open. Well, let's share.

Speaker 1:

I'm listening so, um, I think it's honesty, it's people who are knowledgeable, uh, and I really want to listen to people who know what they're they're talking about, and I don't just mean academically, I mean through their lived experience. You know, that's the cool thing to say your lived experience. Um, but, uh, and a conversation and, and it's really interesting because I've with the london society, um, dave hill and I have started a podcast and I don't think we're as good as you, um it's, we're doing it online. I think we're a little bit still to you know, and I think it's being relaxed and confident about your subject matter and and being knowledgeable, I think that's the most important thing. I also really don't like sort of forced banter. Sort of forced banter. I'm not really interested in people who've known each other for years, who sort of constantly do that. You know, remember when I went to Oxford and I went to you know, all of that sort of it makes me feel closed off from the conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's right. You almost feel like an outsider. I think a good podcast for me is, I feel, part of the conversation I can, I can access it, as opposed to there's these you've mentioned forced banter. Maybe I would phrase it as um inside jokes, it's like just goes straight over my head it's like I don't know if I can access that one.

Speaker 2:

One of the things with the podcast, though, is, I think and this point here isn't to get political, but I think that the point I'm going to make is around politics and shows the strength of podcasts is I do actually think that the reason, or one of the key reasons why Donald Trump is currently the president of the US is because of his approach to podcasts, and, if I understand the story correctly, that came to him via his son that was of that younger generation that understands the influence that podcasts can have as opposed to other, more traditional forms of media, and I think the podcast that did the best for him was the one that he had with Joe Rogan.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you're aware of that one or you saw that one, but he spoke with him for a considerable period of time. It was an unscripted conversation where his opponent main opponent at that time, kamala harris, had a scripted conversation, and I've forgotten the name of the podcast host that she had. The point wasn't to do with the host, though. It's to do with the scripted versus the unscripted, and and that's where that I think that authenticity element and that I can access that, I think, makes, makes all the difference.

Speaker 1:

I think you're spot on with that, because in my career as well it's. It's been really interesting because when I started out in in the world of PR and comms, I think that chief executives and politicians were reasonably unscripted and you know, some of the references I have may be unknown to people in the UK, but in Australia you had some really great characters in politics who, if you go through the archive, said some really unscripted things and were sort of entertaining. But as time went on that started to become more problematic and I think then what happened is the birth of people like me and PR people and media training and everything else started to make everything scripted. And if you're a media junkie, like I am, you can always hear someone who's been media trained versus someone who hasn't. And I think the media training side of things got to the point where it took all the value out of what anyone is saying. And I'll use a good example the Today program has been my go-to listen for 30 years. I think the format is almost broken now because if you look at, they have that 8.10 slot that's 10 past 8 in the morning where I think it's about an 8 or a 10-minute slot with the minister of the day on the issue of the day and it's now. It's kind of pointless for the audience because you get nothing out of it. You know you end up with the minister just sticking to the rehearsed line, the journalist just on attack, and actually it's quite. It's hard on the ears now, whereas you take the same interviewers and they're on their podcast. Much more interesting, much more interesting, sort of much more nourishing for the listener to understand what they're on about. But sorry, back to the Trump thing. Everyone has become so controlled that people like Trump and Farage and these sorts of media entertainers are much better at using the medium of PR.

Speaker 1:

If you look back into the value of PR, right so the value of PR, right. So back in the day there was advertising and you know advertising is quite simply, you take out some space, you book the space, you pay for it and you put whatever content in you like and it'll live or die on that content. You know if it's effective or not. And PR is about influence. Actually it's about getting your message across. And one of the great things about PR was that it was the cheapest form of advertising, because you're getting free content, you don't have to pay for it. The downside was that you can't control it.

Speaker 1:

So you do an interview with someone and then it's published in the paper a couple of days later. You don't know how you've come across or how it's going to be reflected, but the people who were really really smart understood the power of this and you know, sort of in our lifetime. You look at someone like Richard Branson and I know a lot of his stuff now doesn't play for a younger audience, but back in the day he was a guy who could turn up. He understood the power of a photo shoot, the power of an image, and he would have wall-to-wall coverage and it cost him very little, except for the cost of the PR people and sort of the stunt and all of that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1:

The other person is Michael O'Leary with Ryanair. Michael O'Leary is probably one of the best PR operators I have ever sort of witnessed. He knows how to do a radio interview. Take one interview and make it blow up to give him acres and acres of coverage and whatever you think of the problems that he puts forward, I can remember he did one about how he's going to charge for toilets or something yeah, yeah, and standing up as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, on the um and, of course, that doesn't happen.

Speaker 1:

But what he does do is get um acres of coverage for ryanair, and everyone knows they're hideously cheap um. Now whether you want to fly with them or not is a whole different thing, but he gets his message. His core message is we are cheap and that was very successful. I mean, it's changed slightly in the last couple of years, but these were people who had a great instinct for understanding how to ride the wave of and the value that you can get out of PR. I think lots of people now want to ride that wave, but they want to have it in a controlled fashion and it doesn't work and I think that's why people like Trump and Farage have been so successful. And I would say to the other parties you've got to learn how to do that. You've really got to get with the programme. I think Ed Davey has tried that, hasn't? He Hasn't completely worked in terms of votes, but still he's got a lot of coverage. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

I think, though, taking this principle into the construction industry, it seems to me that the whole industry is more interested in the sanitized version of a pr as opposed to a let's go and let's, let's have a conversation. Um, I've tried a number of times to have senior members of large blue chip construction organizations come on here, and those people that are really, really senior will come along with a marketing or a PR type of executive to give them some help and I'm not a journalist, first thing but most of them have declined and said, oh, that's something that we don't do. We don't do podcasts, and it's the thing that concerns them the most. It's the unscripted nature of this podcast that really gives them, really worries them.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I think you've just hit on such an important point and such a lost opportunity for the industry. So the industry at large is misunderstood and everybody who works in construction or the built environment, whether it's development or whatever aspect, all complain that nobody understands the value that they bring to the economy, which they do many good things, which are, you know, these are the people who build everything for us, so they're hugely important, um, but, uh, they're misunderstood because they're not confident enough to have those broader conversations and I think, at a very base level, I think the uh, the industry and I I mean the built environment is such a broad industry so that, yeah, lots of different tribes. So if you take construction, I think most people in construction know very little about the media and PR and all of this sort of stuff in any case, so they're naturally distrustful of it and they, because they don't understand it, they're nervous and it's not their natural state. So generally, in my experience, they outsource it. And you're right, a lot of the people at the top do not want to enter into conversations with normal journalists, let alone unscripted podcasters, and I think that's a great shame because they've got such an amazing story to tell, and most of the people I know who work in the industry are brilliant people and there have been so many great advances. I mean, I'm incredibly proud of the construction industry in this country and it's such a shame that they're not more on the front foot and confident so they can express that, because I think they'd win people over very quickly.

Speaker 1:

Now there's always people who've done things wrong in the construction industry. You know, nothing is 100% perfect. People have done things wrong in the construction industry. You know nothing is 100% perfect. But if you look particularly on the major schemes, you know the major schemes that are brought forward in our cities. You know things like health and safety are just exemplary. And if you've ever been on a building site, it's an incredible learning experience for anyone who's a manager.

Speaker 1:

I have this thing about building sites. You know when you go onto a building site, first of all, your induction is strict. You know exactly where it is, where you've got to behave, step and all of those sorts of things. And you know if you see a piece of timber on the ground, it's everyone's responsibility to pick it up. So there's a great sense of teamwork on a building site that I've not seen in an office, for example, in an office, if we have, as I say, the equivalent of a piece of timber lying on the floor, ie someone who's useless, we, we all step around it. You know, nobody picks it up and gets onto it straight away. I, I think construction managers should come in and teach office, office politics and management. They, they make uh, they make a lot of money. In any case, I think they do amazing stuff and it's a shame they're not more confident to come and explain what they're up to and, you know, embrace this sort of discussion and conversation.

Speaker 2:

Was this a battle or something that you had when you owned your media company? We'll go on to how you built that up, because I'm interested in discovering that with you as well, but was that one of the constant battles that you had to try and persuade your clients to entertain and to go into this type of conversation?

Speaker 1:

Yes definitely.

Speaker 1:

Well, podcasts are relatively new in that regard, and so I think more and more people are doing them, but generally, being relaxed around journalists was something that you had to help people understand, and there were some people who were very good at it and you know, not everyone was bad but I think it was lacking the understanding of the opportunity and the nature of PR. As I say, a lot of people go into media relations now thinking it's an area you can control, and it's not so as long as you understand that. You see the upside. Now thinking it's an area you can control, and it's not so as long as you understand that and you see the upside and also being honest Actually I'm going to backtrack on that bit of advice Sometimes being just clearer about what you want to say rather than Because I know there have been disasters when people have been, uh, very honest so it's more to do with the clarity as opposed to the honesty.

Speaker 2:

Is what you're saying? It's understand your message that you want to get across yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

What I mean is you don't, you don't turn up to a podcast and say I've had a really bad day and you know, and I've just fallen out with the client we don't want that honesty, but but I think being able to get your point across and being more confident is is really important so you built a business up from scratch to something that was significant.

Speaker 2:

Whether you're happy disclosing what that, what that was at the end, I'll leave that for you to decide, but I'm interested in um, what advice you would give to someone that's out there at the moment trying to do the very thing that you had from the ground up, with all of the various digital assets and options and things that they, that they have at their disposal. What advice would you give that, that startup?

Speaker 1:

um, I I'm not going to start up another business because, uh, I don't want to. However, I think about this all the time and I think that there is a massive opportunity. I mean, if I was 30 years younger, this would be amazing. First of all, with the AI tools that you have to promote your business, it is much, much easier than it used to be. I think for women it's easier than it was. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it definitely is easier, and the opportunity to promote yourself and get to market, reach your target audience, is better than it's ever been.

Speaker 1:

The other thing and this is going to be a bit more controversial is for the people who want to really work hard. You know, the world's your oyster, because we and I say this to some people I know who've moved over here from Australia and I think when you move over, when you come from somewhere else, you come to London, it's like, oh my God, everyone's going to be so brilliant and it's so competitive and it's going to be really, really hard. And actually, if you want to work really hard and be smart, you can achieve anything, because there are a lot of people who don't want to do that anymore. So the gap has actually widened in a way that I've not experienced in my lifetime. So if I had my sort of energy and determination that I had back then in this market, I think I could go actually further, faster than I did back then. So be confident. But you've got to work hard If you want to run a business.

Speaker 1:

It there is no, um, work-life balance. It melds all into one thing and you've got to be prepared to go for that. Otherwise don't run, start a business, but don't. Don't. Don't hedge your bets thinking that you can start a business, have a wonderful lifestyle, um, and it'd be easy. It'll be hard, but you've got to work hard. But also, I really I really enjoyed it. So it didn't feel like a great sacrifice, I mean. But you know, my stepson and my son all lived with, you know, a working woman who was working all the time. They're okay. I mean, there were times back then I thought, oh my God, I was doing the wrong thing and you know, am I failing? And actually I didn't fail them.

Speaker 2:

So this is you talking here of what people refer to as the mum guilt?

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, I think the mum guilt and I think even now I mean, there's always someone who's losing out in my life because you're always doing something and you're dedicating 100% over here, well, that means something else falls by the wayside, but I'm comfortable with that now. I used to be really stressed about that, but that's just sort of how I'm made. So you know, people are fine.

Speaker 2:

They'll get over it. I'm made so, um, I don't, you know. Uh, people are fine that you know. That was one piece of advice I was given by a mentor some years ago. The question that was asked to him is how do you balance family hobbies? Um, you know, community interests and responsibilities, job, career, learning. How do you, how do you balance all these things? And his advice was you don't balance it. You know, this concept of balance is is not right. Is that you? Where you are, you give it 100 of your attention. So if you're at home, be at home. If you're on holiday and having fun with your kids, be on holiday and have fun with your kids. If you're at work, be at work. Don't try and be at home. And at work, don't try and do this and do that. The fact of you doing one thing means that everything else is neglected and that's okay, because you can go to do that other thing at another time.

Speaker 2:

The key thing is to make sure that nothing breaks. It's not to have everything. If you're using a spinning plate analogy to have the plates all spinning at the same speed, that's not the ideal. The ideal is not to let the plate smash, but you need to spend the time on the right plate that you need to spin at that time and just do that. Don't try and spin them all at the same time.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, I think that's really good advice. I wasn't quite like that. So my son, always when he was younger, used to call me Mrs, not Even Listening, because he'd be telling me something and I'd be nodding, but he could see that, you know, my head was somewhere else because I was thinking about a client or something like that. I think the the other thing is embracing the imperfect. Uh, as a, as a younger woman, I was much more obsessed about, you know, being perfect in every aspect, and now I'm, I'm much more.

Speaker 1:

You know, if you want to, to be on this journey with me, you're going to have to accept that some things are not going to be as good as others, but you can still. What I mean by that, you know, is so if you bake a cake, it doesn't have to be bake-off standard, it just needs to be so. Everyone gets a slice and goes yum, and then off they pop. You don't have to be so. Everyone gets a slice and goes yum, and then off they off, they pop. You don't have to be the very best baker ever, but everyone gets fed. Um, you know, I garden a lot now and I've got to the point where if something dies, it's died, it's it'll. It'll come back or self-seed somewhere else.

Speaker 2:

Um and just enjoy the process what improvements do you think that the industry can make in order to better tell the sustainability story?

Speaker 1:

Very interesting question. I think the biggest issues that the industry the sort of built environment industry has is its siloed nature. So it's very difficult to be trying to tell one story with so many different sort of groups all going in different directions. But one of the things that I've been involved with is a group called Don't Waste Buildings and that is a volunteer group. It's non-political, we're not funded, but we recognise this is Will Hurst, who's the managing editor of AJ Magazine Architects Journal, and Richard Nelson, who was the president of the Institute of Directors Property and Built Environment Group, and what we all realised is that actually most of the industry was saying the same thing on sustainability, but they weren't saying it together.

Speaker 1:

So this lack of joined up, lobbying lobbying is a terrible word but that's what it is means that if you're a minister in government you have lots and lots of different groups coming through telling their story, telling their story. But there are so many groups who do I listen to and I think the most powerful group is the Hospitals Federation and everybody else has a small piece and I think coming together more would help sell that story because you've got one group telling it, I think also showing the size of the industry. So, for example, if you look at the Office of National Statistics, construction is one part. You know, if you look at the economic drivers of the country, construction is one side. Real estate is a different pot. Architecture, I think, is in creative services. So nobody actually values the whole industry as an economic driver, and so I think a bit of work needs to be done on that, and it's not hard work, it's just getting people all together.

Speaker 2:

So how would that work then? So if I wanted to do that, if I said, Leanne, I really love that idea, I want to do that, how would I even go about doing that? Or are you suggesting that it's a governmental piece of work that needs to be done to bring that group together?

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm nervous about asking for more governmental work because I figure. They're struggling with what?

Speaker 2:

they've got.

Speaker 1:

So I think there's one thing that could be done is to go to the ONS and ask them to revisit how they categorise the sector. That would be a start, but the only way they're going to do that is if all the chairs or heads of all of the different industry groups come together and say we would like you to do this. So I think the first thing to do is to get all of those board directors all in one room, lock them in one room and say right, what do we want to say now? There will always be different takes on things.

Speaker 1:

I'm not suggesting that everybody is completely of one voice on all things but by and large, we're all heading in the same direction and I think that's what the thing with don't waste buildings came about, because you have a situation where the government has declared that we have to reach net zero by 2050, that's 25 years away and that is an act of parliament. So it's not just a wish, it's an act of parliament. Then you say to the government OK, that's great. The construction industry construction waste accounts for 66% of all waste in the country. So what's your plan? And there is no plan. And then you go to the different groups and everybody has. What we found is it looks like they've all got different plans, but in fact most of the industry bodies want the same thing. We need clarity on policy so it's easy to understand.

Speaker 1:

So if you're a developer and you turn up at a building site or a building, you know exactly what is expected in terms of reuse. And secondly, you need to make it financially viable to reuse a building. So in central London that's pretty much the case. I'm not saying it's always the case, but because of the land values, it means you can reuse a building and get your money back because there's higher risk. Obviously, you don't know exactly what's going on with the building, so there's higher risk. But outside of London, all over the country, there are so many towns and cities that are blighted by unused or disused buildings that are not being brought into use and there's no financial incentive to do it and in fact there's probably you may make a loss. So if someone, you run a business I've run a business if you're going to make a loss, how often do you do that? Not very often. So we need to change the financial incentive structure.

Speaker 1:

Vat is a very obvious one that everyone talks about and I know lots of people have tried to have that changed in the past for buildings outside of the major cities. We have to make it financially viable for you to reuse buildings, because nobody who runs a business can withstand making losses. It's just it can't happen. So we're doing actually we're doing a case. We do a lot of case study tours around the country.

Speaker 1:

We're going down to Portsmouth in July and Portsmouth is a really interesting one because it is like a lot of coastal cities struggling but has sort of unique older buildings. They've got a lot of fabulous old maritime buildings. But what is the incentive for the developer or the investor to reuse those? And so that's what we're going to do. What we aim to do when we do these tours is speak to the building owners and understand what is stopping them from being able to reuse buildings, and it's not just the environment and net zero, it's about housing. The spending review has just been announced and this huge amount of money is being invested into social housing, which sounds great, but Historic England have said that there are 600,000 homes that could be provided pretty quickly from existing historic buildings. But someone needs to be given the incentive to make it happen or incentive may be the wrong word, maybe it's take away. The disincentive is the key thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just increase the ability.

Speaker 2:

So I've done a lot of work with a professor from Stanford University called BJ Fogg, and he talks about, or he studied for the last 35 years, behavior, human behavior and to design behavior, and one of the elements of behavior is ability.

Speaker 2:

So to make something happen, you need to have the ability in order to to do that. But ability is broken down into five subsections and they are time, money, mental effort, physical effort and routine, and so one of the things that I see is a massive issue when it comes to this element that you're talking about with reusing buildings is not so much the money and the time, but it definitely is the mental effort, the hoops that you need to jump through to say how on earth am I actually going to persuade the powers that be to make this viable? Because at the moment, I just don't know how to do it. Or I know how to do it, but it's so much don't even want to go down this road because I'm a business. I'm going to go down this road because this is going to, for the amount of mental effort I'm putting into it, going to give me a far better return.

Speaker 1:

I'd love to see that After this.

Speaker 1:

I'll have a look at that, but that really speaks to what Don't Waste Buildings is about and our belief, particularly with SMEs, because I think with the major companies, they have the bandwidth and they have the staff and the teams who are very knowledgeable about things like taxation policy and planning policy, and they know all the hoops and everything else.

Speaker 1:

If you're a small developer, though, um, your bandwidth, your mental bandwidth, is limited, and I I think about because, again before, uh, I was doing a call earlier today and we were talking to someone about, uh, the different financial grants and and and pots of money and that sort of thing that you can utilise to reuse a building, and it's really complicated. I mean, there's stuff there, but you've got to know where it is. Now, when you're running a small business, you're so taken up with the day job of just running it you don't have the time to sit down and then go through and find out all the different iterations of grants and opportunities and everything else that come along, and it has to be there, it's got to be made available all the time, so that one of the problem with grant funding is if you've ever tried to go for grant funding funding is, if you've ever tried to go for grant funding, because, because it just of the time, of the time and the mental, the mental effort that would need to go into it.

Speaker 2:

That's why I've never touched it exactly.

Speaker 1:

So what? What you do is you you scour the internet looking for the potential grants and there's links on pages and everything, but there's never a one-stop shop, by the way. That's, that's rule one. Then you open up the grant funding, you read the criteria and then you think, okay, does that suit me? If it does, brilliant. So you've read all of that. Then you look at the dates and there are only certain windows.

Speaker 1:

So nine times out of 10, you'll look at something, go, you know you've read the 60 pages and realise that, yes, I've got an opportunity, and then you realise it's closed. You know it closed last Thursday and will reopen in January 2026. So you've got to write it down on a spreadsheet and so it's really time consuming and in the end you just don't have the time to do that. So if we're to drive the economy, you need to make things available so that everybody is self able to sort of pick up and and get going if they see an opportunity. They need to have all the ducks in a row to say I can make this happen, and that's what. That's why we talk about the clarity which is so important I love that and I love this um building.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, I love the company that you have, that you've set up and the way that it's, uh, specifically addressing the buildings that already exist, because I think that the goal that the current government has here in the uk to build or have a significant amount of housing available because there's a housing shortage I think that looking in that space is is gonna be a lot better than it is trying to build on greenfield absolutely sites and um.

Speaker 2:

I think also we're going to get all of the benefits from the construction industry or from the built environment by looking at the um, that existing stock, as opposed to just focusing lots of time, effort and metrics on this new build space.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and I mean you're more of an expert in construction than I am and you know the difference If you're building, if you've got a team on new build versus on retrofit. They're different skill sets but right across the country. If we were retraining people on retrofit, they're different skill sets but right across the country, if we were retraining people on retrofit, uh, first of all, we've got some of the best people around who are already super skilled on it. But it's an opportunity for right across the uh, right across the country. There's also an issue, I think, in smaller places versus the large cities. So there's a really important point around the different sizes of cities and towns across the UK in relation to investment. So if you take the very large cities, generally they attract institutional investors. So all the people you know, all the trade shows and everything else where you go and try and get overseas investors and pension funds and everyone else, they will go to those big centres. However, the smaller towns don't attract that sort of institutional investment for a range of reasons and mainly it's about size and capacity and that sort of thing and just the nature of the beast. But the thing that smaller towns have is they have local wealth. They have people who've made money and who understand the needs of their local communities. So we should be trying to unlock those people so that they can invest in their local towns.

Speaker 1:

And a good example of that is Folkestone and I haven't been there for a while, but I've sort of been watching this from afar. And you know the, the De Haan family who owned Saga. They have invested huge amounts of money into Folkestone and apparently it's just amazing and I'm desperate to go down and have a look but, you know, really transformative on a coastal town that no one else was interested in but because they're local, they were able to invest. Now we need to unlock people like that all over the country, who know their local places, love it, want to invest, but make it easier for them to invest, and I think that that's part of Don't Waste Buildings as well trying to find ways of unlocking that money. It's not all about pension funds, even though they're really important, but it's finding ways to sort of level up all of these other places through very practical means that are there already.

Speaker 2:

I love that idea because that investment, coming from that local person, is going to stay in that area and have more of an impact than a pension fund that is made up of people that aren't from that area, because of the emotion that's attached to it. If you think about the most money that you generally spend, it's based on generally an emotion that's driving it, and normally there are children. We spend loads of money on our children.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And that's a good thing, right. And I think that when we look at that person that's investing in their local area, then that emotion is going to keep them connected to that area because it means something to them, and that's where the value of money really comes alive, is where you're doing something that has a meaning to you.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:

And I don't mean that you're invested on emotion as in, like it's a whim, and it's just that you know you're emotionally unstable. I'm saying that these emotions carry meaning with them and that's what adds that. That thing which is called value. Yes, but you're not going to get that value from a pension fund well, that's right.

Speaker 1:

That's right. And you've raised a really important point, which is what is the value of passion to drive a project forward and make something happen versus, you know, sort of just the cold hard cash point. And if we could tap into that, because I think most people are intensely patriotic about their country and also their local area and want to see it work. So we just need to find ways of unlocking that and making it simple. And when we talk about simple policy, we use the example all the time, with Don't Waste Buildings, of the plastic bag tax. So years ago, 10 years ago it may be shocking for younger listeners, but every time you went shopping you got a plastic bag, and if you were doing the weekly shop, you got 10 of them. So we all had just rooms filled with plastic bags and, of course, this was madness. And there were some amazing people who campaigned on getting it changed. And the government brought in a 5p charge on plastic bags and I have never seen anything work so effectively, so quickly. Almost overnight, the use of plastic bags dropped dramatically. And I have never seen anything work so effectively, so quickly. Almost overnight, the use of plastic bags dropped dramatically, and I, you know, constantly.

Speaker 1:

Look at people going in and out of supermarkets and everybody, it doesn't matter what shape or size, age, race, whatever everyone's carrying their plastic bag Because we know we're doing the right thing. And if you forget your plastic bag, you know, we've all felt it, haven't we? We feel that real, oh my God. And you're all apologetic and say I'm not a bad person, but please can I have another one. And what an amazing thing it's done. However, we have someone carrying their plastic bag into a supermarket while around the corner we're knocking down a building, and so you've got to question how many plastic bags are in a building that we're not even giving second thought to on knocking down. And I've asked our sort of scientific engineering brains in the community to come up with, you know, a uh, a graphic of how many plastic bags are in a building, but no one's been able to calculate the exact amount yet. But it's a lot. It's a lot and I think you get the point.

Speaker 2:

Yeah absolutely, yeah, yeah, I remember those days. I just takes me back. Just that story took me back to when I used to work at tesco. I was on the tills and I used to throw plastic bags whoever was packing their shopping, just like you know.

Speaker 2:

Confetti yeah just like confetti. Just here you go, have all this, have more, have more, have more. But the other thing with that is the quality of the plastic bag improved because they were intended to be reused. But when I was on the till at Tesco they weren't intended to be reused because they would break all the time and no one really bothered. They'd break and she'd say, ah, just throw it away, don't worry about it, because we've got there's more where that came from.

Speaker 1:

Yes, but look how wonderful that human behaviour has changed so quickly. So it can be done and you don't. The message around don't waste buildings is so multilayered that it's not all about the climate. It's about being able to talk to anybody and say do you like waste? Now, nobody does. It doesn't matter where you are politically. If you say to someone I want to throw away the leftovers, people sort of get twitchy about that. So the message I I think is absolutely clear and everyone understands that. So we we need to find a way of unlocking things now.

Speaker 1:

Um, I just need to correct you on one thing we're not a company, we're a sort of collective group and we don't even have a formal structure. Uh, lots of people have been asking us to register as a charity and things like that. So we may look at that. But we like the fact that there is no money changes hands. Everything we do is we do it for free. Lots of people volunteer their buildings and time and everything else and that has a has a knock on that. It's a real community spirit. So we're not beholden to anyone. So if someone's, you know, gives you sponsorship, sometimes you've got to do the right thing and say the right thing. We we're not in anyone's pocket, which means we attract everyone, which is very liberating so how can someone get involved?

Speaker 2:

someone listening to this? They think you know I love this concept involved someone listening to this.

Speaker 1:

They think you know I love this concept. What can I do? How can I get involved? Well, uh, interestingly, we had someone do that from australia. They I didn't know them, but they contacted us through the website and now they've set up a chapter in australia. Now we didn't set out to change australian policy and v rules, which they don't have, but the concept has travelled. We've had people from Canada call. We now have chapter leads in different parts of the country because we can't possibly know you know all the detailed stuff happening in each area. So contact us via the website. We've got a LinkedIn group you can join and we post relevant information and people chat about what's going on in their area and all of that sort of thing.

Speaker 1:

We're doing a tour down to Bristol on Friday where we're going to see six buildings I think it is where we have a team on tour today in Coventry. We're going to Portsmouth. We've been up to Letchworth Garden City. We've been to Birmingham. We're doing Manchester. We've had online conversations with people in Orkney. Would you believe? Orkney has a housing crisis. They have a university up there and lots of people want to live in Orkney and they don't have enough buildings. So how do they reuse them? So it's a um, it's quite a it's. I find it one of the the most fun things I do, because it's quite uplifting, because everyone is really positive. They want to make a change. So, uh, short answer, uh, get in touch via the website. There's a little sort of joining info button and we're pretty good at coming back straight away.

Speaker 2:

Good leon, I've loved having you speak on the podcast. Your wisdom, your perspective, your passion, absolutely I've loved it. Thanks for coming on thank you. Thank you for having me thanks for watching to the end. I think that you'll like this, but before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you'll like this. But before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you subscribed.