Episode 51: [GUEST] Learning About Working with a Book Coach and Editor with Sue Toth

In this week’s episode, Stephanie chats with Book Coach and Editor, Sue Toth.

You’ll get insight into what it looks like to work with a book coach and an editor. 

For Sue Toth, who holds both titles in her business, there’s a distinct difference between the two and they’re important to consider as you think about your needs as a writer.

Did you know there are different approaches an editor can take when working with your manuscript? 

If not, you’ll get a quick overview this week.

If you’re tempted to use one of the many tools available to writers online, like Grammarly or ProWritingAid, to edit your work, you’ll want to listen to what Sue has to say about the importance of connecting with another human being about your writing. 

Sue is not just an editor. She also works with writers as their book coach.

She connects with writers at different stages of their writing journey and adjusts her approach based on individual needs.

It’s very common for writers to find Sue when they’re feeling unmotivated and stuck. 

The other big thing that I find with authors is sometimes they'll come to me when their motivation is lagging for whatever reason. They're not happy with the book. They don't like the way it's going. They feel like, Oh, I thought it would be such a great idea to write a book. And now I don't have time. So a lot of Things that I will work with with my clients to our motivational things, um, you know, find a different place to go and write or  a different time of day or schedule it into your calendar.

You know, the way you would schedule a doctor's appointment or something like that schedule time for writing into your day. It's, it's not going to get done unless you make it an appointment and you make it as important as every other appointment in your day.

Sue is dedicated to helping authors get to their writing goal. 

You’ll walk away from this episode with practical tips and insights into what to consider if you’re at the stage of hiring a book coach or an editor. 

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 Welcome to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. If you've ever felt the pull to write your truth, to shape the chaos of real life into something meaningful and to share your journey with the world, you're in the right place. We're your hosts, Elizabeth and Stephanie, writers, coaches, and entrepreneurs who believe in you and know how important it is to find a writing community to guide you on your path to self-publishing.

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Transcript

Stephanie 1:15

Hello, listener. Welcome back to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. I'm one of your co hosts, Stephanie, here today with Sue Toth as a guest. She's going to be sharing about her experience of over 20 years working with authors as an editor and book coach. So welcome, Sue, and why don't you start off by sharing with our listeners just a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Sue Toth 1:40

Thank you, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. Um, as you said, I'm a book coach and an editor and, um, as a book coach, I work with authors throughout the writing process. Um, we, we would do a lot of, you say brainstorming work if an author is having an issue with a plot point or the direction the plot should go in or a character that they can't seem to figure out what to do with. Um, it generally takes weekly meetings or sometimes bi weekly meetings. It depends on the author's schedule and we do usually schedule them in advance and I do ask the writer to have provided Some, a certain amount of words before a meeting, um, so that it moves the process along, but so much of what I do is just brainstorming with the author and helping them over whatever those rough patches might be.

Stephanie 2:42

And then what, how do you work with them as an editor? So for, as a book coach, you're, you're supporting them, helping them with their ideas. What then happens when you get to the editing stage?

Sue Toth 2:53

Well, as an editor, the big difference between a book coach and an editor is that the editor doesn't see the book until it's complete, the book coach sees the book throughout the whole process. Um, I will say that I recommend that if someone uses me as a book coach, that they get a fresh set of eyes as an editor. Um, You know, 1 of a lot of authors have the problem that they've just looked at the book too many times and they can't see things anymore. And as a book coach, I have had that happen to me as well. Um, whereas if I'm editing a book, I come in. When it's finished, completely finished. And one of my requirements as an editor is that you don't give me anything other than a completed book. Um, it can't be like, Oh, well, it's almost done, except I didn't finish the last chapter or something like that. I want it to be as complete as it possibly can be. And that's when, um, We start to go over, you know, whatever the different levels of editing are, um, and there's developmental and copy editing and line editing. Um. I don't know if you'd like me to explain them or if your listeners already know what they are.

Stephanie 4:10

No, I think it would be really helpful to our listeners if you went through each of those individually, just either to refresh everybody's memory or if there's something new that they can take away from it.

Sue Toth 4:20

Perfect. Okay. Well, developmental editing is looking at the whole story. The, the big picture, if you will. Um, again, it's the characters, the plot, the story art, the, you know, are there any holes in it? Um, does the setting work with the story? The characters and the plot and everything. And the difference, like I said, between that and book coaching is a book coach will go over that all along. An editor doesn't look at it until everything is done, and then the developmental editor will come in and make their suggestions. Um, The next portion of editing is line editing. Um, and that is really looking at the sentence level, making sure that the words flow, that the sentences flow, that the dialogue fits for the time period in which they're writing. And I have a funny story about that. Um, I once edited a book that took place in the early 1920s. And, um, It was in a rather wealthy community that it was set. So two men in the book, um, had arrived at a party and they hadn't seen each other in a while. So to greet each other, one of them said, Hey, what's up? Um, so that's the sort of thing that, I would look for in the line editing stage, you know, because obviously, first of all, wealthy people probably didn't talk like that at all. And nobody really spoke like that in the 1920s. So, you know, I look for those sorts of things. Um, there's the copy editing stage, which is really you. You know, that that's when we get down to the nitty gritty, fixing the punctuation, the grammar, the spelling, making sure that, you know, the comment is inside the quotation marks. And every time a new speaker speaks, it's a new paragraph, all those sorts of things. And then the very final piece of it is, is proofreading. And if I'm hired to do a proofread, that's generally done on a typeset version of the book. Um, and. While I am looking for typos, at that point, what I'm most looking for is, um, did a line get skipped? You know, going from one page to the next little line, get repeated. Is there some kind of odd looking spacing that needs to be addressed? Um, and then, of course, I am still looking if there's, you know, an egregious error that was missed through all those other rounds, I will fix it there as well.

Stephanie 6:58

And when you edit, do, does every book that you edit go through all of those? or do you start at different places depending upon what the author needs?

Sue Toth 7:09

The way I do it is, um, I ask what the author needs. Now, I mean, there's a few things to think about here, and that is that all of those. Rounds of editing cost money and not always do people have the amount of money necessary to be able to do them all. Um, some people feel like they don't need a certain one. Like they don't need a developmental edit. They're confident in their stories. Now I will say that sometimes I've been hired to do a copy edit and I read it and I feel like a developmental edit could be used and I will suggest that to the author and sometimes they agree with me and sometimes they don't. And I will also say that you should at least have a couple of different people. Do those edits, like if I've done the developmental edit or if I've been the book coach by the time it gets to copy editing, I've read it too many times and you want a fresh set of eyes. That's really important to make sure that, you know, those little errors that, you know, maybe just didn't get caught. Someone who's only looking for that is going to find that.

Stephanie 8:21

Well, and it sounds like from what you're saying that you wouldn't recommend that an author do their own editing, that there's the need to make sure that especially if you're self publishing or however you're going about it, that you're having multiple sets of eyes on your manuscript.

Sue Toth 8:40

yes, I, I agree with that. Now, a lot of people will say to me, well, why can't I use Grammarly or ProWritingAid or one of those? I am, I am not saying that you can't. They both have their place, and they will probably find those nitpicky little things that happen over and over and over again, that maybe the human eye might miss one, but Grammarly will catch them all. Um, no, but you do not want to only use them. You need, you need to have the human touch in there, and I don't, I don't care how great a computer program gets, it's not going to compare to the human touch because people are going to want, you know, they're going to want to know that their story is good and that readers are going to, you know, bond with their story and enjoy their characters. And I don't think a computer program can ever give you that. Um, however, it, I also say that as an editor, I would like Your book to come to me as clean as you can possibly make it, especially if I'm developmental editing, because if I'm developmental editing and I have to stop and correct every little copy editing mistake. It's really hard. It takes away from my concentration on being able to read the story. So, if as an author, if you use Grammarly and you can clean it up to that extent, it does make the editing process go a little bit more smoothly.

Stephanie 10:19

And how do, if someone's working with you as a book coach, do you have editors that you can then refer them to? How does that work? I mean, how does that work from the book coach perspective? So somebody comes to you and working with you as a book coach, do you have resources then to help them with their edits?

Sue Toth 10:38

do. I have other editors that I work with. I mean, I'm an independent one person business. Um, But yes, I do have other editors that, you know, I've become friends with and gotten to know through various networking and, and professional conferences. And I know their strengths and I know what they're good at. So, you know, if somebody says, well, I really need a copy editor, I know a bunch of people I can send them to. Um, or I, now I think it needs a developmental edit. I will say that book coaching and developmental editing. It's, it's rare that someone would need both because if you're doing one by the time the story is finished, you've kind of gotten it to a pretty good point. Um, but the copy editing, you always need, um, line editing, depending on what time period it's set in. You could possibly need that as well.

Stephanie 11:38

And when do you generally start working with authors as a book coach? Do they find you early on? What

Sue Toth 11:45

That's a good question. And I have had. All different ones. I have had people come to me halfway through the book and say, all right, this is where I've gotten to and I'm just stuck. I don't know what to do. I don't know where to take this character. I don't know what, where the plot should go. Um, and that's when I'll come in and I'll, we'll sit down and, and you know, sometimes I play devil's advocate, is what I really do. You know, well, you could do this, but it might become a problem later when you try and do that. Um, I've had people come to me at the beginning of the book and say, you know, I've got this idea. I don't know how to get started. Now, sometimes what happens is what people really want is ghost writing, and that is not something I do. I have people that I can refer them to again, but if we have a few discussions and it turns out that they need a ghostwriter or that's what they're really interested in, then I would refer them out in a different direction. Um, so they come at, at all different stages of the process.

Stephanie 12:54

And what do you find are often some of the biggest struggles that authors are bringing to you that, in their process?

Sue Toth 13:02

Um, a lot of character problems, you know, I've, I've made this character, I've, you know, dreamt them up and now I don't know what to do with them. Um, so we decide is there something we can do with them, or would it be better to maybe hold them for another book or, you know, put them in a different situation? Um, sometimes there are plot issues. For example, I had a woman come to me once who had a character. And had what turned out to be three different plots because she said, you know, I don't know if I want him to do this or that or this other thing. And I said, well, you could make and do all of those things, just make it three books. And she, after several meetings, she discovered, yeah, I really have a trilogy here. It's not just one book. Because sometimes the problem is that authors want to throw everything into one book and then it becomes, you know, War and peace. And as we know, most readers don't read anything that long anymore. So you could break it up a little bit. The other big thing that I find with authors is sometimes they'll come to me when their motivation is lagging for whatever reason. They're not happy with the book. They don't like the way it's going. They feel like, Oh, I thought it would be such a great idea to write a book. And now I don't have time. So a lot of Things that I will work with with my clients to our motivational things, um, you know, find a different place to go and write or a different time of day or schedule it into your calendar. You know, the way you would schedule a doctor's appointment or something like that schedule time for writing into your day. It's, it's not going to get done unless you make it an appointment and you make it as important as every other appointment in your day. So those are the big things I see.

Stephanie 14:59

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. I've been thinking especially about coaching because of course, with Olympics and everything, and we look at athletes have coaches and I know, you know, I certainly have friends who have resisted the idea of working with a coach, but I have really thought about it in terms of, you know, everybody who's really wants to push themselves to the next level gets a coach of some kind. Do you feel that same way in the work that you do?

Sue Toth 15:25

I do. I do. And, you know, Sometimes people will say to me, Oh my gosh, what was I thinking? I'm not really an author. And I say, yeah, you are, you have the idea, you have the ability. You just, you have to just work on it and get it done. Um, I don't think I'm a coach to the extent that, you know, like Simone Biles is coach was or something like that. But, um, but yeah, it is, it's a lot of motivation. Um, I give homework. I will say I give homework as a coach. Like I'll say, all right, we're meeting two weeks from today in two weeks. I want to see another 5, 000 words or, you know, whatever word count I think might be appropriate for the situation. Um, and I, I think, you know, that that sort of holds you to something. It's not like, Oh, I'm going to meet with my coach in two weeks. I'll talk with her again then and figure out what we're going to do next, because that could go on forever too, and I don't want to take somebody's money forever. I want to help you get to the goal that you've set for yourself. So, you know, this isn't just like a moneymaking scheme. It's a, you know, you've hired me to help you get to a certain place. And that's what I'm going to do is help you get there.

Stephanie 16:44

and what is the what is the typical timeline? Have you seen with I mean, I know it can certainly vary

Sue Toth 16:50

Oh, it can.

Stephanie 16:50

for the author Yeah for the authors who really put in the work with you and stick to the deadlines What have you seen as a timeline for them accomplishing their goal?

Sue Toth 17:00

Um, I've seen books get written in as short as a month. And, um, sometimes, I mean, a more average is three to six months. Um, And, you know, if you're talking an average, say, 75, 000 word book, just, you know, to pick a number three to six months is is generally doable. And again, as you said, that varies based on a lot of things. What else is the person have going on in their lives? You know, do they have a job? Are they a parent? Are they taking care of elderly parents? You know, what does their life include besides writing? But yeah, six months is a good goal to push to. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie 17:54

need to Do a little bit more, get a little bit more book coaching. Uh, and when, and that just to sort of switch over to editing, what are some of the editing errors, mistakes that you encounter or the most common things that you see authors doing that maybe make you pull your hair out a little bit or, or just, or make you laugh because you see it so often.

Sue Toth 18:20

Well, yeah, there's that. Um, I see some kind of silly things like people spell their main character's name in two or three different ways. You know, if it, if it's one of the main, a name that can have multiple spellings, they do it because they just don't remember how they did at the time before. Um, a big, like a bigger, more serious problem than I see in editing is, um, all of a sudden two people are having a conversation. And we have no idea how they got to the point where they were together. Like, did they walk into the room? Did somebody call somebody? Are they texting? Like all of a sudden they're just talking. You know, and they have to have gotten there somehow. Um, I'm trying to think of some other ones. Well, there's one story I can tell you. Um, and, and this is kind of a coaching and editing thing. I, I encountered this as an editor. There was a gentleman that I worked with who was a retired airline pilot. And he was working on a book, um, about the hijacking of an airplane, which, you know, makes perfect sense for a retired airline pilot to write about. So he's writing the story and I'm, I'm reading it and I'm reading and I'm reading and the plane doesn't even take off until chapter 11. Now this is supposed to be a thriller, you know, in a thriller, you need to be thrilled. And the problem was that. Being a retired airline pilot, he wanted to use a lot of his technical knowledge. So there, the first several chapters of the book were what happens when the pilot first arrives to, to his flight and what did the machine, what machines have to be checked and what are there, you know, this machine has to be at this PSI and on and on and on and on. And so. You know, I said to him, I said, who do you think your audience is? He said, well, I would think people from the airline industry. I said, yeah, but is that it? Is that where you want it to stop? And he said, well, of course not. I said, well, then we need to get this plane off the ground much, much sooner than you have it. I said, because unfortunately people aren't going to. Wait, 11 chapters for a thriller to start thrilling them, they're going to give up and go to something else and he ended up cutting a lot and and his book had some success. So I was, I was kind of pleased about that. Um, another, you know, I, I see a lot of people who probably just don't remember their, you know, fourth grade language arts with, you know, in, at least in America, the commas and periods go inside the quote marks. So You have to start a new paragraph every time a new speaker speaks, even if people are only saying one line to one another, it's still a new paragraph. Um, and the thing of it is that if readers see this and they know that something's wrong, you're going to get called out on it in Amazon reviews. And unfortunately, that's the kiss of death for a book, and you just don't want that to happen. you know, you want to give your book a chance. Um, so these are the things that I see and I really want to work with people on.

Stephanie 21:54

Yeah, no, those are all very important things to think about. And I know that I've certainly done some advanced reading for some authors where I've had to them that they need to go back and rework some things because jumping from one scene to another, without anything happening and, and so forth is, can be very confusing. And like you said, getting a bad Amazon review,

Sue Toth 22:19

Yeah. Um, and since you brought that up, that is an interesting thing, head hopping, which is when you have more than one point of view in the same paragraph. Now a lot of people, what's, what's very on trend these days and what's very good, I love reading these kinds of books, is when you have two different characters speaking from their point of view and you might have, you know, like. Johnny's chapter and then Susie's chapter and then it goes back to Johnny and back and forth and that's

Stephanie 22:48

hmm.

Sue Toth 22:48

if you want to do multiple points of view, but you have to. You can't put Johnny and Susie in the same paragraph, because it doesn't work real well that way. Um, and that's, that is a thing I see a lot.

Stephanie 23:02

What about with point of view? Do you find authors struggling with, you know, if they're in first person, sticking with first person point of view well, or third person, you know, is there, do they struggle with?

Sue Toth 23:15

Some do, yes, and I will, you know, help them and say, Alright, well, where do you think this book should be? You know, where do you feel more comfortable writing? And where do you think the book should be? Should it be in first person, or should we maybe think about changing it to third person? Once we've really drilled that down though, and they get to the point where they feel comfortable. Then they're usually pretty good. I will say, though, that brings me to another thought. Another thing I see a lot of switching between past and present tense. And sometimes that's, you know, it's supposed to be like, if you're writing a flashback, of course, but. People do it within the same sentence or the same paragraph, and that gets confusing and that we have to work on and I'll, I'll say to them, all right, let's sit down and figure it out. Do we want this to be in past tense? Do we want it to be in present tense? Um, and once authors understand why they're going to have it a certain way. Then they usually find it easier to write in that particular form.

Stephanie 24:25

What is, do you work with all genres, or do you find that you've specialized in particular genres?

Sue Toth 24:33

Um, I, I do specialize a little bit. I, I do, I personally do romance, um, mystery and psychological thriller. and romantic suspense. Um, I don't really do a lot of historical. I don't do science fiction or fantasy or urban fantasy. Um, and I think that's an important thing for authors to think about when they're hiring a book coach or an editor. You want somebody who's well versed in your genre, um, because they're not going to be able to help you enough if they're not. And I, I know for myself, like, if I do historical, I can only go back as far as the American Revolution. Like, I, I can't go to, you know, the Victorian era or, you know, um, sometimes, somebody once asked me to edit a book that was set in 1500 Scotland. And I had no idea what I was talking about. The, the changes in language and, and dialect and things like that. You don't want to work with someone who has no idea what they're talking about. And a good, honest book coach or editor will tell you that. And we'll say, I'm going to help you find someone else because I am not the best person for this job. Um, I just, I hate to see people waste money on, on a connection that just isn't going to work. But as an author, part of your responsibility when choosing someone is to ask those kinds of questions. You know, what genres do you do? Do you like this genre? Have you read a lot of this genre? Um, and things like, and if they don't ask, it becomes a problem. I always ask, one of the first questions I ask a prospective client is, what's your genre? What are you writing about? Um, And then I will say, that's not for me or, Ooh, I love that. Let's continue. You know, uh, I just don't think it's fair to do it any other way.

Stephanie 26:33

Oh, absolutely. Well, Sue, this has been such a wonderful conversation today, and you've shared so many wonderful insights with our audience. How can they find you online to connect and learn more about, uh, possibly hiring you as a book coach or editor?

Sue Toth 26:50

Uh, my website is www. suetohtoth. com. And on there is all my, you know, everything that they would want to know about me.

Stephanie 27:04

Wonderful. Well, you so much. And listener, happy writing.