Episode 104: [Hannah Gordon] How You Know You're Ready to Write Your Memoir

In this week’s episode, Elizabeth chats with Hannah Gordon, a writer, editor, and publisher who will be one of the panelists at our Memoir Summit on March 14, 2026. The conversation digs into the power of writing for addressing challenging stories and how this informs whether you’re ready to write your memoir. It’s a very personal decision, but you may also need a coach to support you along the way. Both Elizabeth and Hannah offer coaching for memoir writers, so if this conversation resonates with you, you’re invited to reach out and connect. There’s also insight into the publishing world and process from Hannah’s experience in the industry.

Connect with Hannah:

@HR_Gordon (FB, IG, Threads, TikTok)

Website: https://hannahrgordon.com/

 Welcome to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. If you've ever felt the pull to write your truth, to shape the chaos of real life into something meaningful and to share your journey with the world, you're in the right place. We're your hosts, Elizabeth and Stephanie, writers, coaches, and entrepreneurs who believe in you and know how important it is to find a writing community to guide you on your path to self-publishing.

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Join our Embodied Writing Experience where you’ll get a writer’s retreat directly to your inbox each week. This is an invitation to slow down, tune in, and write with embodied intention.   

If you missed this year's Memoir Summit, we recorded it! You can purchase the replays and get instant access to over 4 hours of memoir-specific content from Elizabeth and our amazing panelists of published memoir authors, indie presses, editors, and industry professionals!

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Transcript

Elizabeth Wilson 0:00

Welcome back listeners to another episode of the Inspired Writer Collective. I am your host today, Elizabeth, and I am joined here with Hannah, and she is going to be another one of our guest panelists at our upcoming memoir Summit that you've had heard us talking about on our previous episodes. This is coming up soon, March 14th. And so I know that her experience in this realm is going to be so helpful there as a panelist, but you get some insight today from Hannah. So please, uh, let us know a little bit about you, how you got into writing, how what you're doing and your work with authors and

Hannah Gordon 0:40

Yeah. Yeah, there's, uh, there's a whole lot to tell there. So, um, you know, as far as how I got into writing, I think a lot of folks, um, especially folks who write about. Um, you know, heavier things or memoir things. Um, we get into writing because it is something that we either need to do or something that we were really born into. And for me, um, it was something that I just, I kind of born with a, a pen in my hand, if you will. And so

Elizabeth Wilson 1:04

Hmm.

Hannah Gordon 1:05

started, never stomped almost. Um, but. Uh, that's led me down some interesting paths. So I, uh, initially went to school for journalism and worked as a journalist for a bit. Um, got a master's in integrated marketing communications and started working in the publishing industry, um, working to make other people's really cool books and dreams come to life. Um, and I realized I didn't have enough time to spend the time writing my own stuff 'cause I was putting all of my creative energy into other folks' work. So, um, I, uh, also at the same time realizing that, um, I realized I had gone through some pretty traumatic things as a child and that I needed to take a step back and start working on all of that. So I worked outside of the publishing industry just to kind of make ends meet. Ended up, uh, going on, um, uh, disability leave for almost a year to take a, a complete, uh, setup out of work in my mid twenties to process all that trauma.

Elizabeth Wilson 2:06

Hmm.

Hannah Gordon 2:06

Um, and it really wasn't, um, in that processing that I was able to write about it. But now that I have done a lot of that processing, I'm able to write about a lot of things and, um. As an academic who is also pursuing their PhD in gender and sexuality studies. My, um, research focus is actually on trauma theory and trauma studies. And so, uh, for me, a lot of the writing about what's happened to me and a lot of the work I do with writers in writing their own story in thinking about autoethnography, uh, I'm actually teaching a class in Autoethnography next semester at the university. I work at very excited about that. Um, and so a lot of that work comes from my own work of having to, to learn and excavate myself and to, to write the things I wanted to write. Um, so I say, say that's a, a brief overview of my, my writing journeys.

Elizabeth Wilson 2:59

Yeah, I remember in our previous conversation the one that I hold for all of our podcast guests where, you know, we just get to chat casually via Zoom. That like we were really nerding out about like some of the research stuff that you were finding in all the cool ways that you're applying this and helping people in a classroom setting too. I wonder if you could spend just a minute or two telling us maybe some of the things we. as a society misunderstand about trauma that you have a special, uh, insight to because this is your area of study.

Hannah Gordon 3:32

Yeah. So I think for me, the first thing, and this is, really where the root of my dissertation starts to, um, really take hold, is that we tend to think of trauma as this. Event that happened to someone and we think of it as, you know, perhaps a singular event. We're starting to understand, you know, more complex trauma and how it can be multiple events or, um, small things through over many Hispanic many years. But we still tend to think of. Trauma, trauma as this thing that happened to someone. Um, and we have an individual pathology about it, about it's this, this individual person's experience. And yes, there are individualized ways of trauma, of thinking about trauma and treating trauma. Um, but when we think about trauma as an individualized wound that happened in the past, we miss a lot of the social and relational aspects of trauma, um, that I find to be. Probably the most important when it comes to whether you're thinking about diagnostic studies, but also when you think about, um, how we cope and how we care for those who have suffered trauma and those who, you know, endure that trauma. How do we care for ourselves? How do we learn to cope? And if we don't think about trauma as something that's relational, something that happened between people or was caused between people or institutions or. Objects. Um, then we don't think about how those people, institutions, and objects and other relations then impact and reconfigure that trauma. So, I think trauma, less this event that happens, that bursts into the present and, you know, takes over from a trigger and more of an event that happened that continues to reconfigure the way that. That individual and everything around them experiences. Each other and that relationality. So to bring that into, you know, a little less heady, theoretical speak, um, I think of that as, you know, with the, the placement of the mug in the room on the table matters. And so when we think about trauma as well, this thing happened to this person and they need to get over it, or they need to just do this one kind of therapy and that will solve it. We miss all the minute relational meaning and meaning. Opportunity for meaning making that happens between all of the objects and subjects in a room.

Elizabeth Wilson 6:04

So would that mean like if someone like myself experienced an assault that had a power dynamic to it, would that mean that like, that relationship of like a power, a mismatched power would be something that. You are talking about as something relationally that I need to explore versus just this one particular incident with this one particular person at this one particular time in my life because it's damaged the relationship that I have that dynamic. Is that, is that what you're saying?

Hannah Gordon 6:38

Yeah. So, yeah, so that's a, that's a good starting place to start to thinking about the way that dynamic works. But I think also, I wanna break down the way we think about power. Um, instead of it just being, you know, that we think about power as a, as a relational, that someone always has it and someone always does not. But in, a lot of theory, especially theory rooted in, uh, Michelle Fuko, who's a French theorist, thinking about the way in which, uh, power resides in all relationships. And so where that power comes from, it's not necessarily that it's given or taken, but that it is created in the nature of having a relationship. And so, in that kind of instance where we think about, and of course my instance as well of, childhood trauma has a power dynamic to it, not just in the, uh, idea that we are. Relational with the abuser and abusey relationship and that there's going to be a power dynamic there, right? Because in typical circumstances, the abuser holds all of that power, whether, um, they are in a specific hierarchical position, you know, like a teacher's. Student or a, a boss employee. But, in any case, almost the abuser's going to hold more power over the abusee by simply becoming the abuser. And so we, yeah, that's a important place to start. But also thinking about the ways in which, um, powers exchanged, and the ways in which we. Um, not just through power relate to the things around us. So I think a good example is also that of sensory triggers, for example, knowing the, uh. Ways in which your body, your mind, the sensations you feel are going to respond to a certain sensorial experience,

Elizabeth Wilson 8:25

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Gordon 8:26

can also help us explore the relation between things, right? So the relationship I have to, uh, certain flavors or scents, um, really are rooted in my. Trauma. And so exploring that relationship I think is also an interesting point of inquiry for people who are, um, recovering for or thinking analytically about their own trauma.

Elizabeth Wilson 8:48

And how is writing coming into play with all of that? How is writing being able to be used as a tool or, or a way to explore or a way to express, like you said, you didn't necessarily start writing your story as you were processing, but only you know after the fact.

Hannah Gordon 9:07

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a different, um, different process for everyone. Uh, there certainly are successful narrative, the, uh, therapies that help people actually write through their trauma. And, you know. Narrate a story that helps them feel empowered. But a lot of my work, contrary to my work as a writer, almost, people think that I go from, okay, well the, the writing is the way to get through therapy. And I actually, I started there, I started my PhD thinking, okay. I was able to write my way to get through this. But that was not the case. I misunderstood my own, care, self-care process and therapeutic process, and misinterpreted as okay. I wrote through the trauma. Um, but what really happened was. I was guided by a licensed therapist through, um, a practice called EMDR, which I'm sure many of your listeners, listeners are familiar with. Um, and it was a somatic therapy, evidence-based somatic therapy that said. Oh, I needed to be more in my body.

Elizabeth Wilson 10:13

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Gordon 10:14

to feel these things. I needed to connect these things. Um, and not connect mind body because there's always that mind body connection. But I think one of the things that trauma does is maybe help that disconnect, um, and. It put me back in my body in a lot of ways. And so only after going through that immense feeling like I was not coming home from twice a week therapy, dealing with childhood sexual abuse and writing my way out of this, I was not doing it.

Elizabeth Wilson 10:44

No.

Hannah Gordon 10:44

Um, I was disassociating on the couch.

Elizabeth Wilson 10:48

Yeah,

Hannah Gordon 10:50

Excuse me.

Elizabeth Wilson 10:52

and we're only laughing because it's just the audacity of that idea that like. After going through something so grueling in a therapy setting, would you have any energy if anyone's done EMDR, you know that you are just energetically wiped at the end. I mean, it's only a couple of minutes, but it is so taxing. You are rewiring your brain and so

Hannah Gordon 11:14

Literally. Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson 11:15

It's big

Hannah Gordon 11:16

And it is literally re carving those, and that's one of the things that I teach. Um, so I, I also teach a class called, uh, trauma and childhood Adversity. And so I talk a lot about how, um, not all childhood adversity is trauma. And of course, there's traumas that happen outside of childhood. So not all trauma is childhood adversity. Um, and we talk about what those differences mean, but we also talk about the ways in which you act actually can rewire, your brain to think differently and your body to move differently and respond differently. And that everything mostly is habit and practice. There are very few things that you're just born into and this is what you do, this is how you are. And so I find that, yeah, practice. The, the idea that you would, that you would, uh, have written through after going to EMTR or any sort of intense therapy. Um, comical is why I laugh, because there's just no energy left.

Elizabeth Wilson 12:05

Okay, so I have a big question for you, and I did not prepare you for this question, but as we are talking, it seems to me like you are the one of the people to help me parse through this. I got an email a little bit ago from a listener of the podcast who was helping just brainstorm some ideas of the kind of content like she wanted to see, and her question was. How do you know you're ready to write your memoir? And that seemed like such a really big question, but especially from this trauma informed lens, I think you may be someone who could provide a little bit of insight into like, when are you ready? Like some things, and I've talked to other memoirists, some things are still triggering for me as I even do, like not just when I wrote the initial, you know. Trauma story, but also as I've edited the book, as I've done a quick skim through the book, as I've, you know, what, at all these different stages of the writing process, there have been moments that I've had to, you know, myself again, do some deep breathing, grieve another layer of it. Um, and so I can't in good conscience say it's like after you're no longer triggered by any of it. there's must be something I'm hoping maybe, that we could provide the listeners with on this when do you, when, when is it okay to start like peeling back those layers in a, in a way where you're starting to write your story down with the future intention of sharing it? Obviously in the messy first draft, you're not. Editing, you're not critiquing any of that. You're not making decisions about what you're gonna share, what you're not gonna share, but when are you ready to start that process?

Hannah Gordon 13:50

That is a really good question and uh, you're right, A very big and messy question, right? That is, it's never going to be the same. It's never gonna look the same for every person. And we think, we all know that everyone's, uh, path is going to look and feel different. But I think you touched on one of the ways in which I would say you are ready is when you can. Stop yourself and in induce coping mechanisms that help you self-regulate. Um, and so you are able to say, this is becoming really overwhelming. I can go do X, Y, z, I can go do a breathing exercise. I can go watch my comfort. Film, I can go have a cookie, I can, whatever it is you need to do, I can go do some yoga, write any of the things that you have developed, coping mechanisms, um, because I think that, another thing that I would like to disrupt in the field of trauma theory and the way we think about trauma is this idea of wanting everyone to heal and thinking that healing is the goal. I wanna go on my healing journey. I want to heal. Um, and. I think that healing obfuscates the way in which we actually must learn to understand and cope with our trauma because I don't think we, you never actually heal the wound completely. There's always going to be some sort of scar tissue, I think to use a, a medical metaphor. I have a cut on my finger. My rough ring finger that is from a um, well, it's no longer a cut now it's a scar and it's from stitches I got in my finger many years ago and I think I had like seven stitches in this tiny little slice because I used a serrated blade to cut a bagel. Then I thought I would wipe it off with a knife and instead of turning the blade inward toward the towel I had resting in my hand. I had it outward, I slid it and I sliced my finger open. And I remember them saying how hard it was to stitch that up because it was meaty and messy like a shark bit me on the finger, um,

Elizabeth Wilson 16:02

Yeah,

Hannah Gordon 16:03

because it was a straight light.

Elizabeth Wilson 16:04

like I've, had fat bulging out, you know, they have to like cut and stuff. Yeah. I've had

Hannah Gordon 16:09

Yeah. And they're like, oh, that's, that's nice.

Elizabeth Wilson 16:11

Yeah.

Hannah Gordon 16:12

all these years later. I can feel a diff like

Elizabeth Wilson 16:16

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Gordon 16:17

underside, and they said this when it happened, it may never heal back the same way. And so yeah, I mean, I'm not bleeding. I've got skin there. I.

Elizabeth Wilson 16:27

Functional. Yeah.

Hannah Gordon 16:29

Said, yeah, this, the finger does everything it needs to do, but I can see the line and I can feel the meatiness underneath and I can feel the separation. And I think, oddly enough, this weird finger injury from over a decade ago was a really good analytical and, um, an, an anatomical, excuse me, um, metaphor for how we all experience trauma. Right? It happened, yes. And it's, it's something that re happenss or re-experience every day. It might be in small doses, but it's something, right? You might go, you might end up in a place where you're three months, I haven't thought about this thing, and then all of a sudden, maybe it's just a passing thought. Or maybe you, you did have passing thoughts in those three months, but they weren't overwhelming episodes of, of disassociation or trauma responses. And so. Wait, the thing that happened, the things that happen to us never leave us. They become a part of us. And so I think to posit that we must heal or that we must go on a healing journey, I think is a, is a bit of a misnomer when we talk about trauma. I don't think that, certainly, I think some traumas absolutely possible to heal, right? But. I don't think healing should be the goal. And I think in an individualized medicalized society that we've created, we've made healing like actionable progress that we can document the goal. I don't think it's the goal. I think caring and developing coping mechanisms is the goal. Just go back to the question that I've been rambling on a tangent about When you're ready. I think it's when you have those coping mechanisms or a structure of coping mechanisms that you have a, a net to fall back into. Because what happens before we have those coping mechanisms is we. Approach the trauma and it, it starts growling at us and we wanna run away, or we're scared we're gonna get bit, or we push it too far and we do get bit right. Um, and so we learn to self-protect by not approaching, by avoiding, um, by taking, you know, having risky behaviors and so all the typical ways we see traumatized individuals. Develop maladaptive coping mechanisms. How do we make those adaptive coping mechanisms? And once we have those adaptive coping mechanisms, can you then say, okay, I can start to touch the box. I can, it's gonna growl at me, but I can, I can ease into this and. It gives you a place to say, okay, I'm gonna take a little break. I'm gonna come back in 10 minutes, and okay, I'm gonna take a break. I'm gonna come back tomorrow. Um, but gives you a place to start to notice, um, and respect the way that you feel and validate the way that you feel to work through something. Um, and then to be able to actually write through it. Because, I mean, it still, it still hurts, right? It always still hurts.

Elizabeth Wilson 19:18

Yeah. and you brought it to a great point where it's something I teach within my memoir master uh, plan cohort, is I provide them with a kind of. Outline tool of how to write the hardest parts of their story. Because everyone going through the memoir writing process is going to have a couple of scenes that they, you know, wanna put off and that's fine. But then when it's time to write them, you know, how do you build in that self-care around that writing time? How do you set yourself up? With those coping mechanisms that are just ready to go once you're done with that writing session. You know, things like clearing the rest of your schedule, just like with when you finish EMDR, like don't expect, you know, a bunch from yourself following that writing and like holding the space for all of that. Um, so that's, yeah, just one of the resources that I provide to the writers that I work with, you know, in that group setting on memoir. I wonder if maybe we could transition into the work that you do with authors and the, the reason behind the spilt ink press that you've started, what that press encompasses and what the, like, vision or mission is with that.

Hannah Gordon 20:32

Yeah. So, I work with authors in a number of ways. Uh, the primary way is I am a publisher. Own Gordon Publishing Collective, uh, which is very much collective not company for a reason. Um, we are all about, building up our authors throughout their careers, developing lifelong relationships with authors. Um, we operate as a traditional press, but we are indie, so we're very small and we, uh. Really are looking for interesting, unique perspectives and stories. The voices that, get shut out, especially out of the mainstream publishing industry. So, um, in Gordon Publishing Collective, we are a multi imprint publisher, so we've got a variety, variety of imprints publishing everything from, um, children's middle grade through adult fiction and nonfiction. Launching our first adult, uh, nonfiction imprint this year. So that's exciting.

Elizabeth Wilson 21:26

Ooh.

Hannah Gordon 21:26

But the imprint you miss. Mentioned, uh, spilt Ink Press and so Spilt Ink Press, was almost actually the entire company. It was almost just only what I did. But I have, like an octopus, my arms in many pots, and so I couldn't just focus on one thing. I blame the A DHD, but

Elizabeth Wilson 21:46

Absolutely.

Hannah Gordon 21:46

I'll leave it at that for those who know, you know. And so Ting Press was, uh. Something that I conceived of in my very first publishing job, working as a book designer. And I wanted a place that was kind of like books for the black sheep is what I envisioned. And if you go to, spilt ink.press, uh, you will see our images of black sheep. Um, and for, for good reason because it's kind of the, thing that when I think I was maybe 20 years old designing books, I thought. Oh, that's really cool. And it came out of a blog I used to write called Sitting in Spillt, Inc. And so this, this imprint is meant to, uh, uplift voices in literary, short story in full length novel in memoir, in, in some cases maybe nonfiction, poetry, all kinds of, medium and. Take, uh, the, the stories that people feel compelled from their chest to say and I say this because, well, whether, whether it's fiction or poetry or, whether it is based on, you know, real life experiences or completely fictionalized all of the books in that imprint and all of the books that will be acquired for that imprint. Are about the spilt ink in our lives. They're about the, the, the thing that happens when, when, you know, the dragon's tail knocks over the well of ink or somebody knocks it off your desk or the cat paws it away and says, eh, I don't need that. Um, you know, no. Inevitably at one point or another, the, the ink well in our lives gets spilled by somebody else, and so. What do we do with that? Um, and not to say that, you know, we have to heal from it, right? I'm not about that. But what do we do with it if we just sit there and let the ink seep into the wood or seep into the carpet? There there's, there's, there's no way. And you know, there still might never be a way to get out. And even if there is, there's always gonna be some residue, right? Drama doesn't leave. And so I think inadvertently at coming up with this spilt ink and the idea behind it. I was setting myself down, understanding the path of trauma, um, much more earlier than I ever thought. And so it's interesting to pay for me to walk down the path of, you know, when did I conceive this idea and where I'm at now and what it means to me now, um, and what it meant to me then. Was pretty similar. I just didn't have the language to explain it. I didn't have, you know, I didn't start the doctoral studies and trauma theory yet, so I didn't have the language to explain what I meant by this, but I meant that there's a material and discursive change when it comes to trauma, and you can scrub away at it and scrub away at it, but there's gonna be some residue. But then what do we do with the rest of it? And I hope,

Elizabeth Wilson 24:37

held a pin before and had it bust on our hands and

Hannah Gordon 24:39

mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wilson 24:40

to do the initial washing. You know, so it just doesn't spread everywhere. Right? But it's still there and it stays there for repetitive washings. And so I, I really love that metaphor that you've captured in the naming of that.

Hannah Gordon 24:53

Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah, so that's my, my little poetic, spilt press. And so, uh, yeah, we've had, one author, come out in Pelting Press thus far. Another will be coming out in March. That'll be, uh, we have Mark Mark McDonald with between two Seasons and his sequel will be coming out in May. That'll be some sunny day. Uh, and those are just beautiful stories of intergenerational friendship, dealing with loss and grief and those kinds of themes. So beautiful, beautiful fiction. And then Emily MoCAs, uh, got kind of a cli fi climate, sci-fi, um. Uh, little post-apocalyptic going on, uh, somewhere between Stranger Things in the last of us, but in the future. Um,

Elizabeth Wilson 25:36

it.

Hannah Gordon 25:36

so, that's gonna be coming out mid to late March, so to be on the lookout for those as well. But yeah, some really, really interesting, uh, authors and a lot of debut authors I'm getting to work with, which is really wonderful and really fun and. I, I just love getting to, get to know brilliant creative people who want to write impactful stories.

Elizabeth Wilson 25:58

Well, I did something kind of crazy today, and you're the first person I'm having the chance to tell

Hannah Gordon 26:04

Oh,

Elizabeth Wilson 26:04

to. I did try calling two people and neither of them answered, so you get to hear this first.

Hannah Gordon 26:09

I'm here.

Elizabeth Wilson 26:10

I, I am publishing my memoir this year. I am going the self-publishing route. I've hired my editor, I've hired my book designer, my interior format or I'm basically parsing together all my freelancers to make this happen. So it's really probably more indie publishing than a true like self DIY project, right? And so. Now that it's the new year, I was like, okay, it's time to start that LLC because I, I need these expenses to counteract the modicum of income that this will generate. Like I need to offset some of this.

Hannah Gordon 26:42

Yes, you do.

Elizabeth Wilson 26:43

So today I was like, okay, it is time to like research this. What do I wanna call my LLC? And I was like, well, I probably should just go ahead and call it a press. I was reading all sorts of. Information I had heard that, wisdom before of, go ahead and call it something that's not your name. And so it adds a layer of like. Doesn't look so self-published. And, and so then I started thinking about like, oh, how cool would that be if I could like bring other people under this at some point in the like five to 10 year vision. And so I just started whispered wisdom press with the idea of really revolving it around women memoir writers.

Hannah Gordon 27:26

I love that. Congratulations.

Elizabeth Wilson 27:29

Thank you. And so literally, I just got the domain name. I have to finish processing the, like LLC paperwork. Um, but I'm super excited about it and I just brainstormed a bunch of names and searched to make sure it wasn't taken or prominent or whatever. Um, but now, like only after like coming up with it, am I realizing. That this could be a moment in time that I look back on years from now of like, oh, ha ha, funny past Elizabeth thought she was just doing this for herself. And then it turns into this whole thing, like it's got that potential right of like a little ember that your setting that could take out the whole forest.

Hannah Gordon 28:13

I mean, absolutely. I mean, if my experiences are any pathway forward, then I would say Yes. Exactly. 'cause that is exactly how I feel frequently. When I get emails that say, Hey, uh. We received your, you know, submission for the independent book awards for your other author. I'm like, oh yeah, I submit other authors for book awards from my own company now. Interesting. Weird. When did that happen?

Elizabeth Wilson 28:37

I'll have to, I'll have to pick your brain on like the different ways to utilize this, you know, as, as sort of a, that protective umbrella, that separation of.

Hannah Gordon 28:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's.

Elizabeth Wilson 28:48

As the writer versus me as the business owner and person who's trying to expand the owner, the reach of the marketing, or like you said, submit for awards. I know nothing about any, of that yet. I am totally just learning as I go. but it, I, it just seems like serendipitous that we would happen to be. Talking tonight, because I did not intentionally plan to like coincide those two things and we had played around with what times and dates to record this anyways, so I don't know, I just felt like it seemed right to share that

Hannah Gordon 29:23

Yeah, that's amazing and very serendipitous. And you know what? It's a good segue for me to tell you. All of your listeners that, uh, that's one of the other things I do is I coach indie authors. So if folks are going the self-publishing route or like you, you know, they wanna start their own LLCI always advise people who are self-publishing to start their own LLC anyway. Um, and so

Elizabeth Wilson 29:43

Oh,

Hannah Gordon 29:43

I work with any authors who wanna self-publish who maybe are going from the, you know, just the inception of the idea and writing the whole manuscript, or they've got a first draft of the manuscript, um, and do everything with them from, you know, author coaching through the writing process. To the editorial process, actually doing editing, helping them with book design, helping them with cover design, um, helping them think about the writing as a business. Um, and then going through all the processes of, you know, where, where do you upload these things? What kinds of awards should you be looking for? How do you wanna position your social media? How, what kind of marketing do you wanna do? And, thinking through that with authors, because I mean, I did it freelance for so many years with other authors. And while I own my own publishing company not everybody wants to be in a publishing company and not everybody's a good fit for us, but that doesn't mean that the work isn't worthwhile and shouldn't be out there. And that doesn't mean that I can't work with someone one-on-one or in small group work, um, to get them to where they wanna be with their published book in hand.

Elizabeth Wilson 30:46

Right. The knowledge that you've gained from your work, previous work in the publishing world, I mean. Yeah, that knowledge is still good. Whether you're publishing under one of your imprints or someone is choosing to, you know, do it their own way. I think it's interesting how, so strongly I have felt about self-publishing of that strong desire to hold on to. That ability to decide exactly how my story's gonna be represented, exactly how it's gonna be depicted on the front cover of the book, exactly how it's gonna feel as you open that book and you see the layout of the pages and it's. It requires a lot of investment. Of course there's ways to totally DIY it like you can build your book cover and Canva and you can format. There's plenty of programs that you can figure out and format your own book and, and it just depends what kind of vision you have for, for your book and what you're comfortable with and how much. Work you wanna put in versus how much money you have to invest. And it can be a real, real balance.

Hannah Gordon 31:57

Yeah, it's a definitely a balancing act and figuring out where to spend that money if you do have a little bit of money and I think, you know, I think sometimes there's a resistance for especially indie authors that have a lower budget for their project to hire someone like an author, coach to.

Elizabeth Wilson 32:13

Oh

Hannah Gordon 32:13

Help them through that because they're like, well, you're not actually doing the work for me, you're just helping me figure it out. But I think, what I've learned from, you know, I mean almost a decade of experiences in the industry is that if an author who is self-publishing does not know the rules of the industry, they get blocked from the industry very quickly. Um, because there are some telltale signs that booksellers will say. That looks self-published. I'm not stalking that. Um, or people, readers, even. There's readers who are, have no experience in the publishing industry who I have heard say about books that looks self-published. I'm interested, like why is that here? Um, and it's an unfortunate way. 'cause the what be it might be between those covers is. Wonderful prose, maybe beautiful poetry. Um, but if you don't know the rules, you end up kind of turning off your audience. And so, um, I think that, I mean, and I know not to toot my own horn, but I think having an author coach is something that is a really good investment for someone who does not have any idea. Um, about the industry or has minimal idea, but doesn't really know what to do. You know, do I buy my own ISPN? Do I use the one from Amazon? What do I do? How do I upload? Like, all of those questions are questions that are, you know, a snap of the finger for me because they've been doing it for so long and that takes it off your plate entirely. Um, so I think that that is, um, one of the things that I pride myself on in that form of my work and that like being able to be that guidance to say. Don't think about that or Absolutely. Yes. You need to think more about this, um, and help people kind of steer that, steer that wagon.

Elizabeth Wilson 33:49

I'm so glad you brought that up because I think there's a misconception, especially when someone is potentially just thinking about one book or starting and then they've got their debut and. They're trying to make sense of the numbers from a, like investment versus sales potential. And it is never gonna make sense on that first book, except for the most rare of, you know, debut authors. Right? But that's not. should not be the focus because there is so much that you are developing in yourself as an author. There are so many things I'm learning this first time through that I'm then gonna carry that knowledge with me the second time through and the third time through and the fourth time through. So yes, it looks like way more investment. The first time you do it, it's, it's the same sort of reasoning I give behind. My memoir, master plan cohort, right? It's not cheap, but you can retake it as many times as you need to, and you are going to learn how to outline, how to identify a theme for your memoir. Those are skills that will transfer across any book that you decide to write at any point in the future. And so it's, and, and the same with the work that you do with authors. It's not just. Oh, I'm gonna help you. It's almost better granted that like you're not doing the work for them, that you're teaching them how to do the work and what steps to take so that they can then do it for themselves the next time and the next time and the next time. But there is, I think, a tendency to try and make sense of the numbers at the jump, and it's just never gonna make sense.

Hannah Gordon 35:26

My God. It doesn't even make sense for Simon and Schuster and Penguin Random House. They're like, it's, they make sense of their numbers by ordering 50,000 copies from China. That's so this is, I, I always tell people the publishing industry is not an industry in which you make a lot of money. No matter what I mean, yes, we have our rare occasions. Yes, there are our blockbuster authors that exist and I hope, because my wish for everybody that wants to be able to make a living with their writing that they can do so, um, and that they learn their craft to be able to do so I wish that, yes. But. To try and make the number. I mean, even when you're starting at a publishing company, those numbers do not work for the first couple years. You gotta have some, some risk. Uh, you can't have risk aversion, you gotta have risk tolerance. Um, and you have to be willing to just. Keep going and one foot in front of the other and keep working and know that what you're doing is going to work, but also you investing in someone to know how you're doing and knowing what you're gonna do is going to work or has the best probability of working, um, I think is a good investment in all the coaching.

Elizabeth Wilson 36:35

At the end of the day, you gotta believe in your own story, right?

Hannah Gordon 36:39

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson 36:39

that is going to be the thing that's going to help you get up and do the marketing. Put yourself out there, send those emails, go up to those indie bookstores and ask them to put your book on their shelf. I mean, it's. Just, that's just the way that, you know, you have to keep going.

Hannah Gordon 36:55

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson 36:56

All right. Well, thank you, Hannah, for being here with me today for this important conversation. We, of course, will have the links to all of your information and ways that authors can access you and ask and get more information about your offerings, um, within the show notes. And if you have any final words of wisdom for an author at any point in the process who feels stuck, what would, what would you advise? What

Hannah Gordon 37:24

Keep showing up.

Elizabeth Wilson 37:25

Oh, I love it. I

Hannah Gordon 37:27

Keep showing up.

Elizabeth Wilson 37:28

right?

Hannah Gordon 37:28

It's the hardest thing. Anything in life to go to the gym to write, to get a doctoral degree to anything. Keep showing up.

Elizabeth Wilson 37:37

I love it. All right, well thank you Hannah, and we'll look forward to spending more time with you at the upcoming Memoir Summit.

Hannah Gordon 37:43

Yes. Thank you so much. It has been great, and I hope to hear for some folks.