Unlocking What’s Possible: Shaping the Future of Education with Dr. Miguel Cardona

In this episode, Rich sits down with Dr. Miguel Cardona for a powerful conversation about his time leading the U.S. Department of Education, what he's focused on now, and what education really means in America.

They talk about why America’s strength comes from access, not barriers, and why the goal should be mobility, not a system that feels fixed or divided by circumstance. The conversation also turns deeply personal, reflecting on a moment from Dr. Cardona’s early career as a school principal when he supported Rich’s family through the loss of his 8-year-old sister, a reminder of how much educators carry beyond the classroom.

It's an honest, human look at leadership, impact, and what it really means to serve students and families.

Thanks for listening! Follow us on social media for more!

Rich Rochlin Law Group https://www.richrochlinlaw.com/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/callmyguy.pod/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/illcallmyguypodcast/
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBsXk87X1_aYtawtZEWPdcQ

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Good morning, Dr. Cordona. How are you? I'm well. How are you doing, Rich? Good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Good. Nice to see you. You look uh ebulent, like uh this uh this new phase of treating you well.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, uh I detoxed from DC a little bit and uh good to be back home, good to be with family.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Yeah, I'm doing the work, you know, someone doing the work that I love.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Yeah, that's great. I I went to American University in DC, so I I I live down there and it's uh it's a wonderful place, but uh it's it's not such a wonderful place now as you know, and uh it's not good. So thank you for doing this. I know you have a strict schedule, so I have some questions and hopefully you can do this. So I'm I'm I'm so you know amazed that, you know, one of the things I travel to Europe a bunch, and one of the things I always notice in Europe, and and and I talk to a you know, the London cabbies, right? They know everything, right? And and they're they're it's it's not quite they're kind of a different level than a New York cabbie because they have that thing called the knowledge, right, where they have to learn all the streets, like they literally have to know every street, and they all know about Premier League soccer and who's the best team and all of that. But they also know about culture and politics. And one of the things that a cabbie said to me and um that stuck with me, and he said, What I love about America is that, unlike England, is that your parents can be bricklayers and you can become the president of the United States, right? Totally possible in the US, but other countries, particularly England, you can't do that. It's very hard to get out of that, you know, like a almost like a caste system, right? And so you're you were a uh just a local kid from Connecticut, right? Just from what regular means, right? Well, you grew up in Meriden. Where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

No, right. I mean, if anything, um, maybe a counterexample, right? And and I think that's the beauty of of our country, and that's what makes this the best country. Um, I I often speak, you know, when I speak around the country, I talk about um, you know, I was an economically disadvantaged um English learner, uh, Hispanic, and in Meriden, Connecticut, um attending um, you know, a district that even still today is probably one of the bottom second, third uh funded districts in the state of Connecticut. Yet it was because of that experience, not in spite of it, that I was prepared to be the best candidate for the president of the United States to make decisions around 65 million students. It is that experience that the president sought. He said, I need somebody to understand what's happening in our classrooms, what parents are feeling, what students are feeling. Um and, you know, what some might view as a deficit, I saw as strengths. So, unlike England or other European countries that, like you said, it's a caste system. You know, by sixth grade, they have you pegged. You know, in this country, that's that's the opposite. Um, and I would bring up President Biden, one of the most poignant conversations I had with him in the Oval was uh we were doing a uh press release on debt relief. I think we got to a million public servants that were getting debt relief. And we walked into the Oval office. He asked me to stick around for a second and he wanted to thank me and check in on me, you know. And um he showed me there's a private office, you may know this off the oval. There's a private office where he has a computer, he has a phone. That's where he makes private calls. Uh, you know, he'll meet with the vice president there, um, he'll have his lunch there. Uh no one's there. And um, he brought me in there and he showed me a picture on the wall. And it was uh nothing special. It was like a two-family, three-family house. He goes, This is where I grew up in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And um, this is where my father would tell me, Joey, you have to get an education. Um, because that same mentality that you talked about, his father understood that in this country, education is that gateway, right? So we shared that story. And um, then I shared my story about, you know, how I grew up, you know, at Lewis Avenue. I moved seven times before I was 13 years old. My parents were hardworking parents, the, you know, faith, family, just unity and possibilities, right? And um, and I shared that with him in the oval. And then he he did something funny, Rich. I'll share this with you and then I'll end the story. When I was telling him, you know, our stories are pretty similar. You know, we don't come from a place of privilege. Um, I was the first in my family to go to college, like he was. And um, I was telling him that story. You know what he did? He he walked around the resolute desk, he picked up the phone, he said, Let's call your parents. Which is a true story. I have a picture of my face. Like, oh, really? We're gonna call him. Um, but but it was one of those moments. But that's what's possible in this country. And my story shouldn't be uh a counterexample. It's what's possible in this country.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

What what what's the what does it feel like like the first time, like Ernat, when you walk here? You are right, you know, you're you're Miguel from Meriden, right? You're like, do you ever like you're looking around, you're like, I'm in the oval effing office almost. You almost want to say that, right? For emphasis, you're like, what is happening here? Like, do you say that? Like, how did this like what like tell me about the emotion? Like, I can't imagine that you're on cloud nine or you have adrenaline. When you walk out of the place, do you just scream like as you're walking down Pennsylvania Avenue? Like, what happens?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

It never gets old, I'll be honest. Like, you know, it was never lost on me the the honor it is to be serving. Um, it was never lost on me the history of those hallways, the decisions that were made in those buildings, right? You know, that that walk from the West Wing to uh the White House that's outdoors, you know, that famous where the pillars are, you know, right near the Rose Garden. Yep. You know, I walked that and I'm looking at the you know, his office and and our cabinet meeting room, and I'm sitting or you know, standing in the in the cabinet meeting room, having conversations with colleagues, just thinking, wow, how blessed am I, you know. Um, so always uh uh a spirit of hum humility to be in there, sure, but also a feeling of you know, this is how this country was formed, right? Just regular people making decisions. And that's what I love about democracy that you know, anyone in this country could be in a position that I was in. Um, and that it doesn't take, like in many countries, um, you know, you're born into privilege or your typecast from day one. But yeah, it was pretty cool, like you know, little things, right? You know, you think the White House, it's a pretty small right.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I've been inside, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Yeah, small hallways, or you know, I I had meetings in the situation room, and it's like, whoa, you know, um, or you know, walking through and going up to where the president's office is, um, and being able to just kind of walk those hallways and kind of wait outside his room or in the Roosevelt room. And uh, you know, it's it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, what did what did what did what did mom and dad say? Did they here's the question did they pick up or did they screen the call?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

No, they picked up because what happens is when the president picks up the phone, he'll talk to his uh the person right on the outside.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Oh, yeah, the sec right, his assistant.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

And then they'll they'll just call right, they'll call in and you know, a number that they don't recognize. Um, my my father, knowing that um I'm in DC, you know, it typically saw the 202 area code, so he answered it. He must have said, you know, okay, this must be from there. He picks up, and then the lady's like, um, the president of the United States would like to talk to you. Um, I'm gonna pass you in, you know. And uh, so you know, part of me is like, how you know, it's really humbling, right? And then part of me is like, I hope they don't say anything crazy, you know, because I didn't prepare for this call. Um, but the funny thing is, Rich, when when President Biden started talking to them about his parents and what his father would tell him, he started getting choked up thinking about his parents, you know. So for him to connect to my parents is almost like an extension of him thanking his parents for how they saw education and be that door uh to opportunities. It was pretty special.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Wow, that's amazing. I what what so one of the things I like to focus on my podcast, it's uh it's called I'll Call My Guy, which is like the you know, the expression, I got a guy. Um that was trademarked, so I had to go in with I'll call my guy, but it it really is about relationships and um and and the importance of relationships. And I want to see if you can maybe we can talk about that a little bit because everything in your life prepared you to be to be available, to catch the eye of the leader of the free world to say, Hey, I see something in this guy and we'd like him, or as people to see you and then say, hey, you should take a look at this guy. What type of relationships do you think you formed as an educator and um uh it and and such that brought you to that point? Like what how how did those relationships impact your ability to be seen by the president?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

It's interesting. I often make reference to biculturalism as a superpower, bilingualism as a superpower at a time where where diversity is under attack, where uh being different is oftentimes implied that it's bad. Um, I talk about the opposite. How growing up bilingual and bicultural, I had to code switch and culture switch, right? I went to a technical high school where I was fixing cars for four years. So I had to understand that culture and make friends with people who are very different than me. That's where I got introduced to Metallica, Ozzy Osborne, and all that stuff, right? Yet when I come home, I engage with my grandmother who speaks only Spanish and the foods and the music, right? It's that code switching and culture switching. So keep keep in keep that in mind. That that's a skill set that many of us have. So the pandemic hits. I'm commissioner of education. I have to reopen schools at a time where there were no vaccines, there were no tests, um, the science that we have now didn't exist back then. And I was on daily phone calls with the governor and our team, um, hearing about how New York was the epicenter and they didn't have enough refrigerated trucks for the bodies. Okay. That's the context in which I had to make decisions about reopening schools. Scary as hell, toughest time in my personal life, toughest time in my professional life. But it was that code switching, culture switching that said, okay, I have this task, very difficult task, something that I didn't ask for. I didn't want it. My wife was like, you know, have faith, God put you here for a reason. So I naturally went to that code switching, culture switching and saying, I need people who have different perspectives than me in the room as I'm thinking about how to reopen schools. So while other states fought people that were naysayers or they just couldn't get people in the same room, people that didn't agree all the time. Um, that was my natural strategy to say, I need people who might say I'm gonna have blood on my hands if I do it in the room. I need people who have a perspective of businesses or parents who are both sides of the aisle, um, feeling yes, open or don't open. I need their perspective so that that process of getting fingerprints of people with different perspectives on the plan allowed for Connecticut's reopening to go smoother and quicker and safer than many other states. And that is what caught the attention of the president and his team. They're like, what's happening in Connecticut? They're doing it, and instead of the teachers, you know, picketing in front of the governor's house, they're actually their fingerprints are on the plan. Yeah, and that was different, and and that's what caught the attention. Uh huh. I never donated to his campaign, I never did anything for any democratic campaign. I'm an educator, I'm a teacher, I'm a father, right? Right. Um, and it it was that what I call that ability to understand different cultures, different perspectives, and not look at different as bad that strengthened relationships, which also allowed for a process that brought in uh people who might not always agree with me and respect uh their perspective and build relationship as we're trying to reopen schools in one of the most difficult times in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Wow, this is this is amazing. And it resonates with me because uh, you know, I'm for the first in my family to go to college as well. And so, you know, and now um, you know, I'm a trial lawyer in West Hartford, and you know, and I could see that how you were like, you know, you know how to fix cars, right? And and so, you know, you know um, you know, the difference between, you know, uh a transmission or you know, transmission fluid and oil and and uh and what top dead center is on a compression uh on a piston, right? Um, and so the fact that you could also relate to, for instance, Joe Mechanic as well as you know, C-suite executives or or or or cabinet members at the highest level of government, to me is the best skill set you can develop than you had, because you could literally walk into a, you know, you could, you know, you'll roll up your sleeves and you know how to change a spark plug, but you can also meet with the president of the United States and give him guidance on what educational policy should be. Um also then also and also how to plan a curriculum for seventh graders because you did it.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, right. Yeah. I often talk about, you know, uh you don't change your stripes from the barrio to the briefing room. You gotta be the same person, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah, so that should be your book, but from the barrio.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

That's gonna be a chapter in it. That's gonna be a chapter, and I'm I'm you know, I'm starting to think about it. No, but that's right.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

You have but you but but right. The key is not to change your stripes, it's just to, you know, you could like, you know, as you say, code shift, like or right, you can you you still understand that that you can walk into a bodega and you know get a chopped cheese, but you could also, you know, you know, you could also eat steak and lobster with the president and and enjoy both, and both can be delicious.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Um I think that's an important thing that you know, no letters after my name taught me that. Uh, that's how I was brought up. You know, my my parents, very service-oriented, um, community-oriented. You respect people, you know. You, you know, I look at some of the people that might get dismissed by others. I'm like, that was my grandfather, my first generation grandfather who had to leave school in second grade to cut tobacco. You know, wisdom that that person has, I look at everyone that I engage with, you know, as secretary and before secretary, as someone that has something to offer. Um, even though their their background or their upbringing or their language skills or their their vocation is different than mine, there's still a lot to learn. And that humility, that sense of, you know, shared responsibility of respecting one another and learning from one another is something that was instilled in me uh from very young.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So when you get appointed, obviously you go through a pretty intensive background check and then um you pass all of that and then you get uh confirmed. Do you um how many employees at the time at the Department of Education are you then in charge of almost overnight?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Well, there's about 4,500 um employees. But the the the tough thing was, unlike any other transition, when we came in, over half of the schools in the country were closed, partially or fully. Oh gosh. All of the agencies were not in DC, like they were remote. We walked in, you know, it's not like I get a set of keys, I meet my office, meet my chief of staff, meet my no one was in there. So think about that. I become secretary from one day to the the next, my security clearance gets so high that everything is monitored because I have access to the president. And I have no one near me that I know.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

That's like a Yankee white clearance, isn't that what it's called or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Is that what it's called?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I think it's called where they interview your like your kindergarten teacher, you know?

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah, oh yeah. I had uh black trucks in in Connecticut uh well before I got the nomination. Uh asking my first boss at McDonald's.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

No, no, right. You worked at McDonald's you worked at McDonald's too?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

That was my first job as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, I learned a lot there.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

I was at 95 North in Milford.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Really? That's funny. Yeah, so so when when we walked in, it was atypical, right? Um, but ultimately there were 4,500. You know, we worked to reopen our offices, get people back in. Um, there were a lot of people that relocated. So now it was okay, do we, you know, do we separate with them or do we do they work remote or do we have them move in? Do we give them a grade? There was a lot of those things that we had to take care of. But at the end of the day, when I walked in, only 46% of our schools were open. So I had to get to work to reopen schools in in our country um and make sure that we were on offense when it comes to that and saying, you know, we got to get our kids back into school safely. We got to make sure that we're addressing higher education reform. So the work didn't slow down just because I was working from a screen for a little while, or when I go into the office, it's a ghost town. I had to get people back in. So it was an additional challenge that we, you know, we made do and we didn't make excuses. We had a short window of time to get a lot done and we got it done.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Well, and do you and do you um and do you immediately get a security detail?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

I do. Wow. So the moment in March 2nd, I was driving to Washington, DC with my wife and kids. March 2nd, 2021. And I had like the voting C SPAN, they were voting for me, yes or no, right? So I literally was pulling into Washington DC, the city the the city when the vote was um passed that I I got uh confirmed. Okay. So then the following day, March um that was no, that was March 1st. March 2nd, the following day, I was gonna get sworn in by the vice president. So I went into the compound, you know, the the it was the Eisenhower building uh with my wife and kids. I got sworn in. And I have a detail, it was about 18 uh a team of 18 whose job it was to um provide protection. Um so from that moment on, you know, I had a detail and I didn't drive in DC at all for four years. Um you know, and whenever I was in Connecticut, the detail was in Connecticut. Whenever I was in New York, the detail was in New York. Wherever I was, the detail would be there. Um, vacation personal, because there was a line of succession that was being protected. Um, so yeah, things changed right away on that day.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So that's where every all every cabinet member has that level of protection.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Some have more. Wow. So my detail, whenever I was in Connecticut, my detail was within, you know, a stone's throw. Um, they were discreet where you wouldn't know it all the time. You know, I could go to a basketball game and you know, they're just kind of nonchalant or they're there before me and they're just kind of watching the exits and they're seeing my movements. Um, and then there are times where I'm in festivals or you know, like the big E or you know, 5,000 people there with my and I'm there with my family, and they're you know, they're within eye eyes' distance. And then when I have family events or something like that, they can back off. I can tell them, you know, they can stay at their hotel, or I'll call them if I need them, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Right, right. Great team of people. Wow, and is it and is that handled through the Secret Service or the Marshall Service?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Or yeah, so we had our own department at the Department of Education. Um, but they're all they all have a high, you know, they have a hierarchy where it's all uniform, right? It's not like the Department of Ed is totally um uh separate from the Department of Transportation. But the Department of Education, we had a team of about 18 who would, you know, there would be times I would travel to Nevada. So they would send a team to Nevada before I get there to just track my movements. What where am I going? Is it safe? Who am I meeting with? And just do the safety checks before I get there.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Wow, that's a that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah, it was a yeah, those those gentlemen who uh who did that, I you know, much respect for them and their families. They had to sacrifice a lot.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

That's hard work, right? So your family remained in Connecticut, and then you were would you come back? You went back and forth?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, because think about it. You know, during the pandemic here in Connecticut in 2019, 2020, my wife and kids were here, uh, worked in the school system, my kids were in high school. Um, so I didn't want to, after that disruption of the pandemic, take them out and bring them to DC and disrupt them even further. And then they won't see me there because I'm traveling everywhere. So they stayed here and I I came back and forth um every weekend for four years. And that was that was taxing. But it was even harder on them who, you know, I have it was a weekend dad or weekend husband. That that was hard. Uh big commitment from my family, big sacrifice. So I'm I'm internally grateful for them. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

So what how do you when you transition out, obviously, um when the new, you know, maybe the new administration um was obviously not somebody that would hire you. Um uh and you know, obviously they're dismantling the Department of Education. Um, what what did you do in terms of um did you set up your own consulting? Are you working for someone? What do you do now?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Sure. So no, it was known that once the election um your results came through, I knew you know that uh January 19th was gonna be my last day. Um and quite frankly, you know, if Vice President Harris won, my expect, you know, what the way I was planning to to handle that is to have a conversation with her and transition her in and and help support. But I would totally respect that if she wanted to bring someone else that she knew coming up, because I was Biden's guy, right? Right. She was really good with me and and you know, uh, vice president and I traveled a lot. We had good, we have a good relationship. Um, and it could have been that she would have wanted me to stay, but we never got to the point where I would have had. Conversation to say, listen, I can I can be here a year and you pick your own. Um so there was always the potential that I wasn't gonna be there another four years. So when um when uh uh vice president Harris uh didn't win the election, uh I knew I had to transition out. And what I wanted to do is take a deep breath, really. I wanted to reconnect the family and just kind of take a pause, right? Um and I did. I I was able to um, you know, transition back. It's a difficult transition, as you might imagine, you know, the pace and and not being here. And um, you know, the passion was still there, right? So I had to figure out, okay, how do I want to use this passion and this experience to help kids? Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about for me, you know, serving students and being an education expert, not a policy expert, not a politician, right? And um, so I decided opening up Cardona Solutions is the best way to go. So you can visit CardonaSolutions.com and see kind of how I'm framing that. But it's really about identifying improvements in college and career pathways in helping students access higher education by finding ways to maximize federal dollars that are available to them. And then it's about leadership development, making sure that the leaders of today, both sides of the aisle, are prepared to deal with where we are as a country, where we are in education, what we need. Um, whether it's K-12 leadership or higher education leadership. Um, it's it's work that I enjoy doing. And I've been pretty blessed to be able to speak across all over the country and engage with clients from all over the country, from you know, purple states like Colorado, blue states like California, red states like Texas.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Um I think Texas is purple now, uh, Dr. Cardona. Is that what they're saying? I'm convinced of it. I'm convinced of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

It's uh but you know, for me, it in in even Florida, right? For me, it's really about okay, how do we help children? And how do we go back to our core belief that if we support our students, we support our systems, we're gonna get the best version of America possible. A version that allows stories like Miguel Cardona's and Joe Biden's to be possible.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Right. And who's the an ideal client for you? Are the individual families or is it uh administrations that are looking to revamp their educational uh curriculum? What is the what's your ideal client?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

So it varies. I wouldn't say ideal. I think my my clients are, you know, higher education institutions that are looking to make sure that they help students complete, you know, getting into college is not enough. Um I have statewide organizations that want to revamp how they're thinking about career pathways uh for their students. Um I have um, you know, in the South, I have higher education, I have a higher education institution that is looking to expand their model to bring in more community-based organizations in the work of helping students gain access to college. I'm working in Denver, Colorado, with that system that wants to improve how they're engaging with Kate higher education and industry partners around uh pathways. And then I get, you know, people that say, look, we just need a message from you of what is the state of education? Where are we going? And how can we um how can we have hope in a time where it seems pretty dismal?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

It's terrible. Two final questions. Um, AI. Um, I I do a lot of work with AI. I involve it in my practice somewhat, although there's there's some challenges there because AI sometimes lawyers can't push it out to the to a to something that improves the model because you're you know breaching attorney-client confidentiality. It's very tricky. You have to have a closed system. But AI is changing a lot of things. It's revolutionizing medicine, um, reads of x-rays, diagnosis, those types of things. Um, we're what would you have a sort of a 50,000-foot view on how AI is going to impact education?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah, we have to embrace it. Um, we have to recognize that they're doing it with or without us. Um, but we have to provide guardrails. We have we failed to provide guardrails when the internet came out. We failed to provide guardrails with social media. We have a third crack at it. Let's not blow it. And I'm in favor of helping districts build their capacity to protect students while also making sure that they're competitive because students in other countries have access to it. Um, and we don't want our kids to fall behind.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

And would you agree that minimize your kids' screen time as much as possible?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

I would say instead of minimizing screen time as the goal, create pro-social interactions with students, create opportunities for them to be a part of a club, a part of a group, problem solving, volunteering. When you do that positively, the screen time goes down because they're focused on pro-social behavioral things that are building those skills, those soft skills that we know our students need.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Wow. Well, thank you so much for this. And I wanted to thank you. My um, in particular, my mom, who's a huge fan of yours, um, uh wanted me to say hello. But I'll never forget when, you know, my you were the principal of the school when my uh half-sister passed away when she was eight years old, and you were just so kind and you planted a tree, and there's a plaque there still for my sister. And uh, I'll never forget that. You're a good man, and uh uh you're you're always in my heart because of that. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

I appreciate that. And let me just close with a quick story about that. I've spoken about Rachel in California, in Texas, in North Carolina, and your mother, and that experience of being uh a school principal in PPTs with Lori, who would come into those meetings and talk to me and and and be that that warrior fighting for her daughter who was medically fragile. And I remember one day your mom said to me, Um, this was even before I was a principal, she tapped me on the shoulder, she goes, You know, Miguel, it's nothing personal. I'm just a mother bear protecting her cub. And I didn't have kids then. But I tell that story all over the country. At a time of crisis in this country, we must be mother bears protecting our cubs, father bears protecting our cubs. Lori taught me a lot about leadership. Rachel taught me a lot about service. And while I might have planted a tree for her, she planted seeds of leadership in me that have helped me serve as Secretary of Education and serve 65 million students. So, as much as you remember me for that, I'll never forget um Lori and I'll never forget Rachel.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Oh, thank you so much. That's very touching. And uh boy, that's what that's that's a legacy that she left. So I thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Cordona. And I'll I'll send my mom your regards and please listen to this. I know she's a she fangirls out on Facebook about you all the time.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

So yeah, she's great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Well, thank you for thank you for the work. Thank you for your service. And uh, I'm sure our paths will cross again.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

I hope they do. Take care, Rich.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Take care now. Bye bye.